Here we go again..

[Nikita]

Sooooo....

Quadboxing elemental shamans again in arena.. What a fucking total joke this class is! We went from having a great s8, with loads of high rated elemental shaman multiboxers, into one of histories worst season and expansion.. CATACLYSM S9! You could compare shamans to sheeps in a wolf cage. Then came season 10, we got buffed and there were a few boxers achieving somewhat high ratings. Myself hit close to 2000 rating with 2150 MMR. Then s11 emerged, we had legendary rogues which would kill one of your shamans in a single smokebomb, and we cant forget the lovely mage shatter-shit-on-you burst, combined with a lock multidotting you for thousands of dmg. This is where I stopped playing 5v5 with my shamans and geared up my paladin team and farmed LFR and heroics, patiently waiting for MoP.

So I saved up 4k JP and 4k honor, lvled up to 90, geared em in full honor gear. Now Im sitting at 32 % PvP power with 16 k spellpower and cant global shit, it takes me atleast 3 GCD to kill a target. Lava burst and Lightning bolt hits like a 6 year old girl in a boxing fight VS Tyson. Our defensive CDs has improved since Cataclysm, but that isnt helping us much since they made hunters, warriors, spriests, resto druids, locks and mages burst more and have more surivability then a GM on roids.

Unless they nerf other classes dmg, or buff elemental shamans dmg and survivability, Im giving up on this joke of a so called shaman class

Thanks and good night

[heyaz]

I can totally sympathize with him. I got my shaman to 90 last week, excited about new totem mechanics and ascendance. I'm only half honor geared, half crafted set, but I can extrapolate what I know to what they would be like fully geared, and it doesn't look promising (and Nikita confirms it).

They each almost get globaled by any of: ret paladin, warrior, shadow priest, mage. Killed through 4x healing tides too, no problem. My experience in BGs so far is blowing up people requires either ascendance + ele mastery and like 500 lava bursts, or 4x ele blast + 4x lvb + a few dozen lightning tickles to finish them off. The worst part is I have to use SWG because they actually have sufficient time to run from me when I pop ascendance.

I hadn't boxed in wotlk, and they were squishy and easily manipulated back then, but at least they blew stuff up. Now they can't even do that, not even close.

And how about, one shadow priest exhausting all of your tremor totems. Love that.

Things may get better, but I saved energy (<10 hours played on my 90s) so I could work on my next (melee) team.

[heyaz]

But... there's always enhancement!

no idea how that would even play but. 4 dks looks better on paper.

I'm not sure if there exists an exceedingly effective pvp multibox comp anymore or if there ever will be again. There were shaman in BC (lol purge, chain lighting, earth shock, dead), and 4x ret + dk in mid wotlk before the resil buff (death grip into a chainsaw, dead). The rest of the time, a few seasons here and there, a few comps here and there, were very viable to 2-2.2k ish in arena depending on your healer and battlegroup, but it was not easy.

[Ualaa]

This game can be frustrating at times.

I don't mind a bit of language, but don't necessarily like it either.
I can understand the need to vent; I've been there myself too.

Nikita has been around the boards for a couple of years, and language in his posts isn't common...

[valkry]

Agreed, I am struggling to kill targets quickly and if a healer/pillar is involved I can forget it. At 90 I pumped 36 lava bursts into a warlock, who didn't have a healer btw, and he lived. We get a nice def cd but other classes get "god mode you can't even pinch me" cds.

The shaman class is continuously being messed around, which usually means you get to spend a fair chunk of time at the top, but it seems we are fluctuating between middle and bottom. I'm preparing to level my resto druid and will roll around random BGs with that knowing that only a boxer will have a chance to kill me in an open field.

PS: I'm pretty sure I'm one of the more prolific cursers on this site and I have never been told off for it, bl Nikita haha

[Multibocks]

Sad to hear this, guess my shaman team will be the last to be leveled this expansion. Currently 10 boxing 4 dks 1 priest and 5 monks. TBH I wish I had 5 more dks. :(

[Ualaa]

Hopefully 8x Shaman with a Boomkin and Priest (Healer) will have the power to blow up random players in AV/IoC's.
Would be nice, if boxed Elemental Shaman had decent power against five random players...

[Nikita]

Random BGs are different story, with a pocket healer you can tank even 4-5 dps. But with just a hint of teamwork and some coordinated Cc your dead.

This problem might jusy be a gear issue, maybe we need full conq gear to kill stuff. The new patch is not out yet, and we can only hope for some dmg/survivability buff, or a major nerf to 60 % of all the dps specs

[heyaz]

May be a few patches away before shaman become viable. They really need an anti-cc, whether stun, silence, or incapacitate. Pop ascendance, elementary mastery, and spiritwalker's grace - get aoe incapacated by what - 4 classes now? Aoe stunned by a few as well. When people see 4-5 ethereals pop up, they get cc'd to death. The ethereal death sound is ringing in my ears.

[heyaz]

Random BGs are different story, with a pocket healer you can tank even 4-5 dps. But with just a hint of teamwork and some coordinated Cc your dead.

Yeah, it barely even needs teamwork. I've been BG'ing since WSG was introduced and I'm convinced there is a strong concept of team morale. Get a bunch of randoms together, not even a premade - couple kills happen, super paladin blows some stuff up, team gets excited. People start using abilities and cooldowns, being extremely aggressive, and next thing you know they are at your GY. Then your team's morale drops to nothing, no one wants to fight back, use cooldowns, or even defend themselves.

With boxing I've found once my team gets wiped, painfully, with no kills and a bunch of ethereals dying before they can cast, I'm focused and blown up constantly for the rest of the BG. Except when super shadow priest gets cocky and runs in to aoe fear, thinking he's gonna throw me off and runs like hell when I pop ascendance. But if it's melee, forget it.

[Nikita]

Anyone have a clue when next patch will hit?

[valkry]

I believe my cursing stems from my background of growing up in a mining/pub/truckie town and it being part of our every day language is just second nature. But hey, that's just me and I'm not very intelligent.

With from patch 5.01 being on the PTR now, I'm going to guess 6 weeks. Season 13 gear is included in the new patch but it takes 17 weeks to get fully CP geared at 1650 CP a week, which won't have been possible yet.

PS: The correct spelling is, "you're." As in, "you're not intelligent enough."

[Ashley]

Still only 86 on my shamans :( Got a nice method to power level though, just doesn't become really effective until I got a bunch of 90s for the increased DPS.

[Apatheist]

I never expected Elemental to be any good, TBH. Even if the burst was there, it's just too easy to lock out or LOS boxed caster damage. I only rolled Shamans because I expected MOP heroics to be as hard on melee as Cataclysm's were, which they're not.

I've dropped my druid/shaman group in favor of 4x ret and a priest. I'm finding instance just as easy and the PvP is great. I may switch one of the Paladins to holy, drop the priest and add a DK at 90.. or keep the priest and just swap a ret. A DK would add a lot to the group. Haste buff from frost plus death grip/chains of ice would be nice for peeling off my healer.

Priest is pretty boss now, though. 30 sec CD AoE root. Fear. Invis. Pain Sup through stuns. You have a lot of tools to mitigate burst/switches.

[Nikita]

I`ll keep capping my shamans, to get fully geared in conquest gear. Just hoping our dmg will be enough to "global" people in a few months. Healing tide totem + astral shift + spamming healing surge with 4 shamans + my holy paladin popping his CDs is enough to survive the first burst wave, but after that they just train me to the ground. And even with full stacks on my lightning shield, combined with instant EB followed by LvB cant kill.

And I think its just BS that dispelling FS doesnt have any penalty, so the only DoT a ele shaman have is dispelled without any drawback. I`ve tried doing FS, to force a dispell, into hex. And I still cant kill someone within the window of the CC duration.

I saw a post from Nuvoz (one of the highest rated ele shaman in the world) concerning ele shamans viability in arena. And even he agrees that ele shamans are in a baaad state.

What goals do people have this expansion in arena? What comps are you playing?

[remanz]

I totally feel ya Nikita. my melees teams are still struggling. I don't really have a counter for massive AOE CC. I think arena overall is just lacking bad opponents for us to stomp on. The people who do play, they already have some what of a clue. That, combined with Hunter/Warrior/Mage/Warlock OPness. I have opted to focus more on solo arena with friends, which at this point do require equal amount of multi tasking if not more than boxing to play well.

My goal was to do reasonably well in arena in 5s. Settling down in 1800+ ratings. explore 2s and 3s boxed, no rating expectations there. Achieve 2000+ for solo arena with friends in any bracket.

[heyaz]

Well, I'll be bringing up my melee team next, I'm learning toward DKs first but may end up doing both teams of rets and DKs eventually. Goal wise, at the very least, I want to be able to play any size BG, even 10 man, and steamroll whatever I want, or at least not be a detriment to the team, which I unfortunately feel like when I bring 4 little shaman into anything.

2k viable in arena is important ultimately but as I said back before release when I noticed all the aoe cc that Any spec could now use, I didn't know if arena was going to be the thing anymore... at least not until normal people start playing normal comps in 5v5, which I'm not seeing now.

I haven't given up on the shaman and they'll stay capped and I'll mess around with them a bit more but... I've never been so disappointed upon hitting max level.

[Palee]

Guys if you want to global people, just play BGs. Arena is a constant source of frustration and negative feelings. And why does it matter how long it takes to get fully geared in conquest? Then next season comes and you have to do it again. This is a treadmill, it has no end.

[heyaz]

Guys if you want to global people, just play BGs. Arena is a constant source of frustration and negative feelings. And why does it matter how long it takes to get fully geared in conquest? Then next season comes and you have to do it again. This is a treadmill, it has no end.

Agree. Arena was an endless source of frustration even when shaman had a chance. When i got my shoulders in season 7 I quit arena for a few months. Went back to season 8 and got as high as I could but always went back to BGs and world pvp which is what I enjoy most.

Now, you can get fully geared just running BGs or capping out in arena no matter how lame the games are.

Problem is... shaman aren't exactly beasts in BGs either. In fact they're pretty sad.

Back to melee for me.... maybe :)

[remanz]

Melees are fine in BGs unless you face all hunters + mages. So for boxing 4 ranges, i would just go 4 BM Hunters or 4 Fire Mages now. Those 2 are definitely globing people.

[Palee]

4 individual hunters and 4 individual mages will global people but when you box them, the moment melees start swarming you, you get killed because you can't IWT to face them so you have to keep moving around wasting time. This is the main reason I stopped playing any ranged/caster classes. One annoying rogue will make your life a nightmare.

The solution to beating hunters and mages is to roll 10 box like a boss. I do resto shaman, resto druid and 8 DKs. I'm still at lvl 85 with only 1/4 of Jade Forest done and I'm killing 2-3 lvl 90s at a time. I ran into mage, hunter, spriest ironically and killed them all.
My team will destroy at 90 in full honor gear.
But the secret is in having 2 healers not one.
And if it gets too tough I will swap a dps for another healer, but I doubt it will be necessary.

[heyaz]

Well, shaman won't do well against mages or hunters either. You'll have to bomb heals on the main right away and if you survive it and it's 1v4 you can get them eventually but, eh. That's not why I multibox - to have an advantage against a single guy. Shaman do even worse against other classes (I did global an ele shaman though... haha). Now I remember why I got tired of shaman back in wotlk even when they were strong - dealing with melee. It's much, much worse now.

I'm working on DKs at the moment, debating whether to xfer a toon to my RAF accounts so that I can make DKs or to boost up my rets to 55ish first. Stupid restriction when I have countless toons over 55 across my bnets. Then, I'm looking forward to farming up ioc then av for the next week.

[remanz]

hm, with 4 BM hunters, you should be able to kill people with just pets, no? I understand the melee problems with boxing range. I just need something for a change I guess. Been boxing melees since Wrath of the Lich King. I am thinking about down sizing my team to play range to allow finer control. Maybe finally just dual-box it. SO create 2 v 1 situation, if melee chase one, I manually control that one to kite, while the slave auto face and nuke. If he switches target, then I will switch with him.

[daviddoran]

I would think that a system similar to diminishing returns, should be developed to handle all the AoE stun/silence/fear CC that is prevalent in wow these days. I propose something like how the AoE Damage cap works. Say you have a 5 second AoE stun. I would like to see it where if the spell affected two people, they each get a 3 second stun. If the spell affected 3 people, they each get a 2 second stun, 4 people would each get a one second stun. Obviously the numbers are made up, but you get the idea. As it is now, even non boxers can get grouped up in tight areas (AV towers/bunkers) and AoE CC is more powerful, where as in larger BGs and open areas, the AoE CC only really affects boxers.

[remanz]

Ok guys, if you are curious about melees in arena.
I made a video how it went tonight. It is really short. But pretty much shows the current state of DK + 4Rets. One loss One win in the video. and I went 5 - 10 tonight. The win I had in this video was really just luck. The other team (or at least the warlock) has no clue what I am about.

ZdNTCynrQjE

[Apatheist]

The solution to beating hunters and mages is to roll 10 box like a boss.

Problem with this is that you will lose most BG's doing so. In any of the 15 player BG's, a smart team will just avoid you and capture the objectives you're not at. Even 5 boxing, you're handicapping your team a bit unless people are organized and don't follow you around.

I've never had an issue 5boxing melee Vs. ranged classes. DK's have grip/chains and paladins have emancipate/HoF. I also decided to play my Paladins with a disc priest with mass dispel to help with this. Emancipate is awesome!

[Apatheist]

Ok guys, if you are curious about melees in arena.
I made a video how it went tonight. It is really short. But pretty much shows the current state of DK + 4Rets. One loss One win in the video. and I went 5 - 10 tonight. The win I had in this video was really just luck. The other team (or at least the warlock) has no clue what I am about.

Problem I see with adding a frost DK to the comp is that you're sort of negating your ability to use CC because of Howling Blast. Repentance is pretty awesome now.

I'm rolling 4 ret + Disc priest. Between the priests AoE fear/root and stuns/repentance from the Paladins, you can really CC bomb quite a lot. Fear by itself is amazing if you run in on a random target, get Inquisition up, switch and stun a priority target and blow cooldowns on Rets while your priest fears everything else. The other team must blow trinkets to get out of fear or your target will be dead by the time it ends. At that point, you can take a step on your Paladins to stop them moving and @focus repentance. I've been able to keep 2-3 people out of the fight for the first 15+ seconds of the match doing this.

[Ualaa]

Problem with this is that you will lose most BG's doing so. In any of the 15 player BG's, a smart team will just avoid you and capture the objectives you're not at. Even 5 boxing, you're handicapping your team a bit unless people are organized and don't follow you around.

I've never had an issue 5boxing melee Vs. ranged classes. DK's have grip/chains and paladins have emancipate/HoF. I also decided to play my Paladins with a disc priest with mass dispel to help with this. Emancipate is awesome!

Have to agree with this... 10-boxing would be for AV or IoC.
Possibly for a premade 15-man (or with a 5-boxer) as long as everyone knows what is happening.



Not too often... but it has happened before...
My five box (in AB) was stronger than all 15 players on the opposing team.

I went to Blacksmith, killed 7-8 of them, took it.
And then held it from the players who rezzed (the same ones I killed).
A little while later, they grouped up to get me and just used brute force (could easily have CC'd me to death, if they were smart).

They changed their strategy...
Run away from the boxer and let them have whatever they want.
And play 15 vs 10, at the other four bases.

My team was not able to hold even one base.

[Nikita]

I see people saying ele shamans are weak in random Bgs, and I have to disagree on it. I do fairly well with my 4 shamans, thou I usualy que with a pocket healer. The key is to switch targets all the time. I train a target, and if he's not dying i switch fast to a healer and gib him.

[Apatheist]

My team was not able to hold even one base.

Can't count the amount of times this has happened to me. I ride around and wipe the Horde at each node and cap it, as soon as I leave they get it back. I try defending a point, the Horde control every other node. It's like the rest of my team are AFK, but they're not.

Then you get the games where 4-5 of your team follow you around like idiots.

5boxers can be awesome in BG's, if you have a smart team that knows how to take advantage of your strength and ability to dominate mid. Problem is, smart is not the term I'd use to describe most WoW players.


I see people saying ele shamans are weak in random Bgs, and I have to disagree on it. I do fairly well with my 4 shamans, thou I usualy que with a pocket healer. They key is to switch targets all the time. I train a target, and if he's not dying i switch fast to a healer and gib him.

It's not so much that Shamans are weak - 4 of just about any class can do fine in BG's. My feeling is that there's no particular reason to play Shamans over a team that does equally well in RBG's and PVE, but is also competitive in Arena's and rated BG's. If you're going to go though the grind, might as well pick a comp that works everywhere.

[Meathead]

Ok guys, if you are curious about melees in arena.
I made a video how it went tonight. It is really short. But pretty much shows the current state of DK + 4Rets. One loss One win in the video. and I went 5 - 10 tonight. The win I had in this video was really just luck. The other team (or at least the warlock) has no clue what I am about.

ZdNTCynrQjE

By the looks of it you can do a tone of damage but they are ccing you good, A priest and 4 ret should be good

[heyaz]

I see people saying ele shamans are weak in random Bgs, and I have to disagree on it. I do fairly well with my 4 shamans, thou I usualy que with a pocket healer..

that

[Void]

Well looks like I wont be turning my accounts back on. Maybe a couple more expansions =-(

[remanz]

By the looks of it you can do a tone of damage but they are ccing you good, A priest and 4 ret should be good

Melees, Rets at least, have a threshold for offense. They don't have the staying power of shamans (shaman should be able to defend and weather the storm). The threshold for me is to kill within 2-3 Globals. Grip -> stun -> silence, then my target has to die. If he doesn't die, run away, or worse , AOE feared me, then its a loss.

Offensively, Frost DKs are better than rets. They can grip more. and they burst like a champ. But they are really squishy. So you have to have a good healer with you.

As for the priest, dispel has CD now. With the amount of CCs being thrown at me, priest can't help much. Need double healers. At this point, I am just leveling shamans/warriors/mages to see which ones are more enjoyable , not necessarily more effective.

[Ualaa]

Frost DK could:

Glyph Pillar of Frost.
And use:
#show
/cast Pillar of Frost
/cancelaura Pillar of Frost
That's a one minute trinket.

Then they have their regular two minute pvp trinket.

And can use the 90 talent to be immune to CC for 10 seconds, every 2 minutes (but on an 8 yard radius area, at the time of the use).
Desecrated Ground even removes loss of control effects.

So that is four uses (PoF x2) of Loss_Of_Control break every 2 minutes.



If AoE CC is that bad, Frost DK's become a strong option.

[heyaz]

AoE CC is pretty bad right now. Damage is very high on several classes. I'm keen on DKs at the moment. So much CC protection, gap closers, etc:

1. Trinket
2. Pillar of frost glyphed for another trinket
3. Lichborne to break fear/seduce/sleep
4. 4x death grips
5. 90 talent to grip everyone
6. 90 talent to become immune to cc
7. 90 talent to cc everyone in close range
8. Chillblains to slow everyone
9. Undead to break fear/seduce/sleep again when trinket is on CD
10. AMZ to be immune to most CC
11. IBF to become immune to stuns

So we end up with 3 ways to break ALL cc, 2 ways to be immune to it being applied entirely, and 7 ways total to break some kind of cc. Compare that to shaman that only have a trinket, a totem to break fear but only if not stunned, and a totem to become immune to snares which isn't amazingly effective for casters.

TONS of good tools. And decent damage along with that, better than rets it looks like.

[remanz]

DK looks strong and fun. But they do die fairly fast so you might end up treating bodies with them. Also Paladin can throw 2 BOP in a row now. So it might be hard to kill when there is a paladin on the team.

also "5. 90 talent to grip everyone" , this doesn't work for some reason. I tried to use it. and it briefly pulls targets towards me , but stopped mid way. It doesn't work like a death grip x 5. It just doesn't work at all actually. maybe serve as an interrupt.

[Ualaa]

Did they revert Lichborne to the WotLK version?

In Wrath, it would break Fear.
In Cata, it made me immune but would not break an already applied fear.

[remanz]

I don't think so. can't break it if already feared.

[heyaz]

DK looks strong and fun. But they do die fairly fast so you might end up treating bodies with them. Also Paladin can throw 2 BOP in a row now. So it might be hard to kill when there is a paladin on the team.

also "5. 90 talent to grip everyone" , this doesn't work for some reason. I tried to use it. and it briefly pulls targets towards me , but stopped mid way. It doesn't work like a death grip x 5. It just doesn't work at all actually. maybe serve as an interrupt.

I think they definitely need a dedicated healer to make up for being squishy. But their damage output and overall pressure on the other team is good to mitigate incoming damage by putting them on the defensive. I haven't tried the 90 gorefiend's grasp talent, sad to hear it's not very effective. I'm not sure whether to go with 2x of the freezing talent and 2x of the immune to cc talent, or 4x immune to cc. Ultimately though if you do not pressure them, regardless of 7 ways to break CC, you will find yourself cc'd and out of cooldowns at some point.

[heyaz]

Did they revert Lichborne to the WotLK version?

In Wrath, it would break Fear.
In Cata, it made me immune but would not break an already applied fear.

whaat? In cata, lichborne broke an already applied fear, I'm positive of that... I solo boxed a DK main the entire expansion. What it doesn't break is a horror, i.e. priest disarm/fear thingy and death coil, those had to be trinketed.

[Palee]

Problem with this is that you will lose most BG's doing so. In any of the 15 player BG's, a smart team will just avoid you and capture the objectives you're not at. Even 5 boxing, you're handicapping your team a bit unless people are organized and don't follow you around.

I've never had an issue 5boxing melee Vs. ranged classes. DK's have grip/chains and paladins have emancipate/HoF. I also decided to play my Paladins with a disc priest with mass dispel to help with this. Emancipate is awesome!

If I wanted to win small scale BGs I wouldn't 10 box. I want to dominate large scale PVP, be it AV, IoC, raiding cities.
By no means I'm not planning to play 10 or 15 people BGs. Or if I do it will be just to kill a lot, not to win.
This winning concept is so deeply ingrained in our brains that anything else cannot be fun.
For example for me it's a lot more fun to kill 600 players in AV and cause a massive turtle than to win. And ironically when I do get 600 kills in AV I also win.
With a 5 box you can't defend your general in AV. Unless they are retards or undergeared.

[Ualaa]

whaat? In cata, lichborne broke an already applied fear, I'm positive of that... I solo boxed a DK main the entire expansion. What it doesn't break is a horror, i.e. priest disarm/fear thingy and death coil, those had to be trinketed.

When the four DK's were sent at a Priest, Warlock or Warrior without activating Lichborne...
Or when one of those classes made a bee-line for the team...

Lichborne was useless, to end the fear effect.
I'm assuming they were using Howl of Terror, Psychic Scream or the Warrior Shout.
Unless those three classes have an AoE Horror effect.

Activating the ability, anytime I attacked a group that included one of those classes, my team did not scatter.

[Apatheist]

This winning concept is so deeply ingrained in our brains that anything else cannot be fun..

True enough, but that's WoW for you. It's a gear based game with finite objectives. If I wanted meaningful PvP on a larger scale, I'd be playing something like Eve or SB, I guess.

I suppose most of the reason I don't get it is that I just don't find turtle-ing in AV or camping some city particularly entertaining. That's just a preference thing.

[Shodokan]

Did they revert Lichborne to the WotLK version?

In Wrath, it would break Fear.
In Cata, it made me immune but would not break an already applied fear.

It broke fear in cata.

Also will have to test glyphed pillar as a trinket but from the wording it doesn't say it removes CC, just makes you immune for duration of you standing still IIRC.

[Ualaa]

Tim uses the glyphed Pillar of Frost with the macro in his streams.
I've not seen him stream MoP, but through WotLK and Cata it was a one-minute trinket.

[Multibocks]

Isn't that glyph the one that roots you? Seems terrible for PvP.

[heyaz]

Isn't that glyph the one that roots you? Seems terrible for PvP.

/cancelaura right after

[Multibocks]

So then you lose the 15% strength buff? Seems kind of wasteful.

[heyaz]

So then you lose the 15% strength buff? Seems kind of wasteful.

Yes, but the strength buff is worthless if you're cc'd. It's a tradeoff I guess, because pillar of frost also protects against knockbacks and death grip... I guess if you popped it with AMZ and IBF you would be immune to all CC.

In cata or wrath I'd say no way, in this expansion where everyone has an aoe disorient, stun, etc. you're gonna need that protection. and will of the forsaken probably since priests can fear you 30 times

[Ualaa]

Depends...

On the one hand you have 15% strength and immunity to knockback.
Plus you can glyph something different.
When you don't need to break the CC on your toon/team, this is the way to go.

On the other hand, you have a PvP trinket on a one minute cooldown.
Which does not use up your ability to click your two minute trinket; alternatively, because you have a one minute trinket, you could equip two DPS trinkets...
When your team is CC'd and unable to do jack, the knockback immunity and extra strength is pretty useless.
This does cost you, one of your three Major Glyphs.

I think I'll play around with the glyph and isboxer.
Step 1, Pillar of Frost.
Step 2, Cancelaura Pillar of Frost.
Reset to Step 1, fifteen seconds from first press.
That way, I can take advantage of the immunity to everything for 15 seconds and still end it at will, to negate the root effect.

[Shodokan]

Yes, but the strength buff is worthless if you're cc'd. It's a tradeoff I guess, because pillar of frost also protects against knockbacks and death grip... I guess if you popped it with AMZ and IBF you would be immune to all CC.

In cata or wrath I'd say no way, in this expansion where everyone has an aoe disorient, stun, etc. you're gonna need that protection. and will of the forsaken probably since priests can fear you 30 times

20% str + cds popped = your oblits HIT for 60k.

Not worth giving up IMO.

[Multibocks]

Yeah I understand that if you are CCd you don't do any damage, but the burst you lose is insane. If you can't burst you can't get that kill and then really you can only do pressure, which isn't a boxers strong point.

[Shodokan]

PVP in general right now is fucked. 5's is more unbalanced than ever IMO.

I honestly am not sure any boxing comp is viable to super high ratings this season. I'm likely going back to single boxing.

[heyaz]

I know that feel bro. PVP is a bit broken overall, for sure. As this thread started with ele shaman and how tragically gimp they are (not just in comparison to the OP classes, but overall)... I wanted to go back to this:

This was me 3-4 months After wotlk was released. Brand new to shaman pvp, I'm 1-2 tiers behind the current pvp gear, still in some pve and lvl 80 quest junk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxBLhlxii68

FS+LVB overkills. Chain lightning globals. Forgetting that it was a mediocre game and most people weren't fully epicced in s5, it actually felt like I had four ele shaman.

In MoP I was in 90 BGs about 12 days after release. I feel like I'm playing one of my wotlk shaman. When I'm not cc'd and dead.

Arenas, I've only done a handful but essentially - one shaman explodes instantly, healer cc'd, others die. Games 15 seconds. I think I got a lava burst off in one game... haha

[Lyonheart]

Arenas, I've only done a handful but essentially - one shaman explodes instantly, healer cc'd, others die. Games 15 seconds. I think I got a lava burst off in one game... haha

What classes are killing you so fast? IF some classes are killing you so fast, include them in a future team? I'm no PvP expert, I do it for fun and could care less about titles. For me, if my shammies suck in PvP and i could rarely kill anyone.. i would pick a class that could.. even if i don't win.. i want to be able to see people die lol.


I understand the argument of this thread though, hard to find a "viable 5 boxed team" I bet someone will figure it out though. And it is still early, things could change for the better 8)

[heyaz]

What classes are killing you so fast? IF some classes are killing you so fast, include them in a future team? I'm no PvP expert, I do it for fun and could care less about titles. For me, if my shammies suck in PvP and i could rarely kill anyone.. i would pick a class that could.. even if i don't win.. i want to be able to see people die lol.

I understand the argument of this thread though, hard to find a "viable 5 boxed team" I bet someone will figure it out though. And it is still early, things could change for the better 8)

Warriors, ret paladins, mages, shadow priests are the worst I believe. BM hunters aren't as big of a problem as I expected them to be. I usually have them popping deterrence and on the defensive early. Other classes don't even have to bother with that.

It's not just that multiboxing elemental isn't even remotely viable right now, elemental in general is not viable right now. Take a look at the wow forums and it's flooded with threads about how elemental isn't just underpowered, it's pathetic. Full dreadful + 2-3 pieces malevolent and you're looking at 30k lavaburst crits. Pop a few CDs and unleash elements and maybe 45k. This is against players with 330-350k hp.

We all have limited energy and time and trust me if it were as easy as single boxing and grabbing one of my existing 85s or even 80s and jumping up to 90 in 2 days, I'd hop right on the OP bandwagon. It's quite a grind to pull another 4-5 toons up to 90 and pray that they're viable.

[Lyonheart]

Warriors, ret paladins, mages, shadow priests are the worst I believe. BM hunters aren't as big of a problem as I expected them to be. I usually have them popping deterrence and on the defensive early. Other classes don't even have to bother with that.

It's not just that multiboxing elemental isn't even remotely viable right now, elemental in general is not viable right now. Take a look at the wow forums and it's flooded with threads about how elemental isn't just underpowered, it's pathetic. Full dreadful + 2-3 pieces malevolent and you're looking at 30k lavaburst crits. Pop a few CDs and unleash elements and maybe 45k. This is against players with 330-350k hp.

We all have limited energy and time and trust me if it were as easy as single boxing and grabbing one of my existing 85s or even 80s and jumping up to 90 in 2 days, I'd hop right on the OP bandwagon. It's quite a grind to pull another 4-5 toons up to 90 and pray that they're viable.


If they are truly that underpowered, i'm 100% sure Bliz will buff them...

[Ualaa]

Just adding up the numbers...
My ten box team (8 shaman, 2 heals) might not one-shot an AFK opponent, with all cooldowns used.
Eight toons casting the same thing (your strongest spell, with specials/cooldowns), should one-shot anything; it is eight toons.

[cmeche]

Not to mention ice block, bubble, deflection, reflect damage...... And prob a whole lot more that I don't know enough about. So many classes can just pop a cool down and negate any burst.

[Multibocks]

Just adding up the numbers...
My ten box team (8 shaman, 2 heals) might not one-shot an AFK opponent, with all cooldowns used.
Eight toons casting the same thing (your strongest spell, with specials/cooldowns), should one-shot anything; it is eight toons.

That is seriously fucked up, excuse my language. Thank god I decided to level my DKs. I'm killing 90s np. Yesterday at 88 I had 5 fully geared 90s trying to kill me at same time. It took them forever, but they graveyard zerged me. I destroy every class except warriors. Damn that warrior was hard as hell to kill.

[Palee]

Why are warriors so hard to kill? And should I make warriors then instead of DKs? Are warriors better?

[Nikita]

They should make a talent which goes like this:

Removes the instant LvB proc chance on FS ticks, and buffs lava burst with 20-30% dmg increase.

Could be like a PvP talent.

Astral shift should be like this:

Ports te shaman to the elemental plains, granting 70 % dmg reduction to all incoming dmg for 8 seconds.

Capacitator totem should have a baseline ramp up of 3 seconds, glyphed it should be 1 sec.

A new spell called Elemental shield or something like that.

Rockbitter shield
Flametongue shield
Frostbitter shield

Flametongue shield enchant would give a stack on lava burst every time you take dmg, increasing the dmg from lava burst, up to a total of 5 stacks.

Rockbitter shield would give a 5 % dmg reduction everytime you take dmg up to a total of 5 stacks.

Frostbitter shield would give a slow effect, everytime you take dmg, the attacker gets 1 debuff reducing movement speed up to a total of 25 %.

[Shodokan]

Why are warriors so hard to kill? And should I make warriors then instead of DKs? Are warriors better?

Boxing? No.

[Multibocks]

Single player warriors.

[valkry]

Shamans need a flameshock dispel protection again. It was good in cata if we got dispelled we could pump out rediculous lightning bolt dmg!! Maybe a silence to the healer or an explosion when dispelled which "melts" the weapon of the dispelled person, disarming them for 10 seconds.

[remanz]

Why are warriors so hard to kill? And should I make warriors then instead of DKs? Are warriors better?

correct me if I am wrong. My friend is telling me for 1 Warrior, beserker rage + avatar + skull banner + trinket, 1 Dragon Roar will hit the target for at least 120-150k. And all 4 of those things can be casted together in 1 macro I think. 120k is fully PVP geared vs full PVP geared opponent. So if I have 4 warriors, I would 1 shot my target and EVERYONE nearby after charge. Does this sound right ?

given that my target didn't pop bark skin or shield wall before I charge him obviously.

EDIT: ok , apparently dragon roar total damage is capped. So if there is something nearby, it won't hit all with the same damage as hitting one. So can't 1 shot everyone lol. 120k sounds about right for a dragon roar single target crit. Dragon Roar always crit.

[MiRai]

beserker rage + avatar + skull banner + trinket, 1 Dragon Roar will hit the target for at least 120-150k. And all 4 of those things can be casted together in 1 macro I think.
Dragon Roar is the only ability out of all of those that is on the GCD.

[remanz]

Dragon Roar is the only ability out of all of those that is on the GCD.
Ya, so in theory, I just cast all that stuff with charge. and dragon roar the moment my target is stunned by the charge. Profit! If Dragon Roar is really as good as I think it is, if it really just hit for 90k each, my target is dead the moment I charge in.

[valkry]

Ya, so in theory, I just cast all that stuff with charge. and dragon roar the moment my target is stunned by the charge. Profit! If Dragon Roar is really as good as I think it is, if it really just hit for 90k each, my target is dead the moment I charge in.

Then you get kited by the mage and hunter which can hit just as hard

[remanz]

Then you get kited by the mage and hunter which can hit just as hard
huh ? how can you kite me if i one shot you. plus warrior has avatar , which is a freedom for 20 seconds. If I cannot kill my target in 20 seconds, I lose anyway. Both hunter and mage are getting nerfed coming 5.1. Obviously all assumptions went away if dragon roar cannot hit for 90k + on my target due to shielding/damage reduction/heals/immunity.

Level 90 warriors now have group shield reflect for 5 seconds per warrior and an AOE root like elemental shamans. Its probably the best chance vs mage as ever been for warriors.

[heyaz]

Then you get kited by the mage and hunter which can hit just as hard

Avatar makes you immune to snares and it'd have to be a pretty decent mage or hunter to kite all 4 of them. If they had really excellent timing they could make it so you never connect (deterrance, iceblock, blink at the right time so you can never apply a snare and get a hit).

[remanz]

Avatar makes you immune to snares and it'd have to be a pretty decent mage or hunter to kite all 4 of them. If they had really excellent timing they could make it so you never connect (deterrance, iceblock, blink at the right time so you can never apply a snare and get a hit).

well. that's true. Its a gimmicky surprise attack after all. Probably one shot them once, then they will learn to use defensive CDs early, prior to the charge. I played 4 warriors in season 10 during the bladestorm age. Getting kited quite a bit once bladestorm is over. Also didn't work out a good "shattering throw" scheme where I can stand still and round robin my shattering throw (pre-casted).

for a frost mage, I'd do my 1 shot macro with everything (immune to fear + root + snare), charge x 4. he blinks. I cast group spell reflect, charge again then cast AOE root, then just dragon roar his ass (in theory the mage is dead already). Right after dragon roar I cast shattering throw. Normal sane mage would IB already at this point. If Shattering throw connects, then I can kill the mage. If the mage use instant Ring of Frost, then all warriors have to trinket that.

[Shodokan]

Ya, so in theory, I just cast all that stuff with charge. and dragon roar the moment my target is stunned by the charge. Profit! If Dragon Roar is really as good as I think it is, if it really just hit for 90k each, my target is dead the moment I charge in.

If you hit multiple targets your damage PLUMMITS to not even doing a total 50% of someone's HP (3+ targets). So theoretically you need to 1 shot someone who is not near anyone within radius of dragon's roar in order to have it work. Then you are going to eat stuns, snares, fears, polys and every other CC.

You cannot control multiple warrior's to even close to their potential in all departments...damage,control,mobility.

I have warriors at 90, trust me on the fact that it isn't as great as you might think.

[remanz]

If you hit multiple targets your damage PLUMMITS to not even doing a total 50% of someone's HP (3+ targets). So theoretically you need to 1 shot someone who is not near anyone within radius of dragon's roar in order to have it work. Then you are going to eat stuns, snares, fears, polys and every other CC.

You cannot control multiple warrior's to even close to their potential in all departments...damage,control,mobility.

I have warriors at 90, trust me on the fact that it isn't as great as you might think.

Ya hitting multiple stuff will not be able to 1 shot my target. When it comes down to it, it is how fast my 4 warriors can kill. Rets can't kill at all. Back in the days when Rets are working, death grip in, hammer of justice served. Trinket or not, my target dies within 2 seconds. Now after I death grip, you can go get coffee and used bathroom, my target would still stand there. That's with 5 dps beating on him.

As for getting CCed, the whole point is to NOT get CCed and kill someone quickly.
what happened to that mass spell reflect for 5 seconds x 4. Imagine if DKs have 20 seconds anti magic shell, could the DKs kill someone with that ? Poping Avatar x 4 and round robin mass spell reflect. Then you are only just vulnerable to AOE stun (ring of frost or frost DK aoe freeze, have to trinket this) or AOE knock down (Pally blind). They can't fear/snare/root/sheep you. Not saying warriors are the solutions. Still think DK is better overall with grip. But warriors do have some stuff.

[heyaz]

I feel like maybe we should all slow down a bit, enjoy the group(s) we raced to 90, and ride it out if it's a "rough patch" for your comp.

Work on your alt groups if you want alt groups, race them if you enjoy doing that, but don't do it solely by virtue that you're going to nail the OP, broken comp in the first season and dominate. For two reasons, one: things are going to balance out and change dramatically as they always do and your existing comp may become not just viable but amazing next seasons, and perhaps the opposite with your new theorycraft comp. And two: just because classes A, B, and C are doing crazy damage and blow up your toons, or have too much survivability and you can't kill them, doesn't automatically mean you can macro together four of them and become IDDQD.

[remanz]

that's true. I agree. rough season for sure. Main thing is that I am looking for a reason to be excited and to get me to play the game again. No disrespect for others who do, but I can't justify my $75 to just login and do daily quests, run random heroic, or leveling alts. Wow is a 8 year old game. Gotta play what matters.

[heyaz]

that's true. I agree. rough season for sure. Main thing is that I am looking for a reason to be excited and to get me to play the game again. No disrespect for others who do, but I can't justify my $75 to just login and do daily quests, run random heroic, or leveling alts. Wow is a 8 year old game. Gotta play what matters.

I agree. It's not even justification of cost for me, it's time and pain, leveling a bunch of alt teams hoping for a quick fix to a rough pvp season. Leveling makes me nauseous.

[valkry]

huh ? how can you kite me if i one shot you. plus warrior has avatar , which is a freedom for 20 seconds. If I cannot kill my target in 20 seconds, I lose anyway. Both hunter and mage are getting nerfed coming 5.1. Obviously all assumptions went away if dragon roar cannot hit for 90k + on my target due to shielding/damage reduction/heals/immunity.

Level 90 warriors now have group shield reflect for 5 seconds per warrior and an AOE root like elemental shamans. Its probably the best chance vs mage as ever been for warriors.

Oh I'm sorry, I thought the other team had more than 1 member

[Multibocks]

Oooh burn!

[remanz]

nah, not gonna start anything on that. Just theory crafting here. I didn't even play warriors yet. probably like he said I get nuked to death instantly by hunters. I probably give warriors another shot and be done with this expansion.

[Nikita]

I asked Vanguard yesterday about ele shamans, then he told me he thought they were in a good spot. He was serious about it aswell. Most people called out: nice trolling there. But defended it by telling us to go check EU ladder. Then I watched Reckfuls stream, and they met Novoz (former 3k rated ele) team. They just sat on him for like 30 sec and he died. They started saying: "ohh, feel sooo sorry for that guy. Ele shamans are in such a bad spot".

This is coming from some of the highest rated people in the US. Blizzard should totaly do something about it! Have only seen changes for resto shamans on mmo-champion, not a single one for ele or enhance.

Starting to think that Blizz is doing this to ele shamans + DKs, so that multiboxers wont get high in arena. I can only imagine the drama it would start if there were several multiboxer teams above 2200 rating.

[Shodokan]

I asked Vanguard yesterday about ele shamans, then he told me he thought they were in a good spot. He was serious about it aswell. Most people called out: nice trolling there. But defended it by telling us to go check EU ladder. Then I watched Reckfuls stream, and they met Novoz (former 3k rated ele) team. They just sat on him for like 30 sec and he died. They started saying: "ohh, feel sooo sorry for that guy. Ele shamans are in such a bad spot".

This is coming from some of the highest rated people in the US. Blizzard should totaly do something about it! Have only seen changes for resto shamans on mmo-champion, not a single one for ele or enhance.

Starting to think that Blizz is doing this to ele shamans + DKs, so that multiboxers wont get high in arena. I can only imagine the drama it would start if there were several multiboxer teams above 2200 rating.

That hasn't happened since s8.

But ele shams are only in a good spot in specific comps that can actually burst + heal. Ele/Spriest/Druid, Ele/Mage/Druid namely. LSD is fine as well but not as strong. Ele shams lose to straight melee cleaves and almost always have so the fact that they still do is no surprise. Vs caster/melee/healer they actually do pretty well. Warriors losing blanket silence is going to help a lot too for ele shams in 3's.

[Fat Tire]

With all the changes taking place in 5.1, I suggest people wait and see how it plays out. Might be a good time to reflect on the goals you want to achieve in pvp. All goals are ultimately achievable one way or another.

For me I would like to see defensive cds increased or removed and a increase in the cooldowns for instant crowd control. If they are going to nerf burst without nerfing the defensive/instant control or uping sustained dps to compensate no one will ever die, ever.

I read there will be changes to pvp gear(no rating,less rating?), arena queues(all realm queues like rbgs?) and such in a developer post that is coming soon.

The most important thing is to play the classes or teams that you enjoy the most.

[Shodokan]

With all the changes taking place in 5.1, I suggest people wait and see how it plays out. Might be a good time to reflect on the goals you want to achieve in pvp. All goals are ultimately achievable one way or another.

For me I would like to see defensive cds increased or removed and a increase in the cooldowns for instant crowd control. If they are going to nerf burst without nerfing the defensive/instant control or uping sustained dps to compensate no one will ever die, ever.

I read there will be changes to pvp gear(no rating,less rating?), arena queues(all realm queues like rbgs?) and such in a developer post that is coming soon.

The most important thing is to play the classes or teams that you enjoy the most.

This x 10000

If you don't play what you enjoy and just re-roll for success you will ultimately end up enjoying yourself less, not to mention possibly not being able to use the OP whatever to the maximum potential.

[MiRai]

I read there will be changes to pvp gear(no rating,less rating?), arena queues(all realm queues like rbgs?) and such in a developer post that is coming soon.
I am interested in the rating thing as well - http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6934955271?page=5#96

I would love to see Arena queues to be region-wide for the sole reason that everyone can finally stop stroking their e-peen about what battlegroup they're in. However, I'm not sure if that actually brings any repercussions on you Arena folks.

[remanz]

With all the changes taking place in 5.1, I suggest people wait and see how it plays out. Might be a good time to reflect on the goals you want to achieve in pvp. All goals are ultimately achievable one way or another.

For me I would like to see defensive cds increased or removed and a increase in the cooldowns for instant crowd control. If they are going to nerf burst without nerfing the defensive/instant control or uping sustained dps to compensate no one will ever die, ever.

I read there will be changes to pvp gear(no rating,less rating?), arena queues(all realm queues like rbgs?) and such in a developer post that is coming soon.

The most important thing is to play the classes or teams that you enjoy the most.

The single change to make arena queues cross all realms will fix the issues for 5s. we just need enough people to play the damn thing

[heyaz]

I'd love to see 5s active to the point that even if your team is gimp at the moment you can still cap out by getting retarded teams, 1v5s and no shows. I used to cap out 2s this way dual boxing (just tabbing) in cata with my t2 DK and an alt that just sat there - with instant queues you could actually cap pretty quickly.

Of course ultimately I'd like faster queues and lots of activity in 5s so I could actually play for real and have good competition. But for now just being able to queue and mess around and still cap would be great.

[Nikita]

I love the shaman class, and have so for several years now. But when season after season, and several days played I still cant grasp what Blizzard is thinking. We went from being gods to being top 3 shitty PvP spec. Yes we can/could do insane burst, but in a world where mages, locks, hunters and warriors can do 2-3 times our burst + have more survivability, its just not fair.

I dont wanna reroll just cus Blizz fucked up with tuning other specs. I'll just suck it up and wait (again) for another season/patch. I'm not quitting WoW until I break 2200!

[remanz]

Come to think of it every classes have their OP days. From I can remember

Warriors = now
DK = upon LK release. Blood DK ruled arena for like 2 seasons.
Paladin = once a upon time, Seal of Command procs extra swing. Paladin can kill within HOJ stun. Bubble only reduce attack speed by 50%, not damage.
Hunter = now
Mage = Frost mage in Cata. Still today. I think it is BS mage can proc frost damage from another mage's freeze/nova.
Warlock = The end of LK with Shadow Fury and insane survival.
Rogue = can't think of when Rogues are OP.
Priest = The end of LK with disc healing. and Spriest super damage + mana drain.
Shaman = elemental was god in BC days. I was able to stand there just cast LB against a warrior. and let the warrior interrupt me all he wants. I would kill him with 50% hp left.
Druid = the end of LK, blizzard buffed bleed damage. Feral druid was doing crazy amount of damage in arena. They were getting 5 combo points. Instant cyclone. let energy get full. Burst down after cyclone expires.
MONK = yet to been seen

[heyaz]

Come to think of it every classes have their OP days. From I can remember

Warriors = now
DK = upon LK release. Blood DK ruled arena for like 2 seasons.
Paladin = once a upon time, Seal of Command procs extra swing. Paladin can kill within HOJ stun. Bubble only reduce attack speed by 50%, not damage.
Hunter = now
Mage = Frost mage in Cata. Still today. I think it is BS mage can proc frost damage from another mage's freeze/nova.
Warlock = The end of LK with Shadow Fury and insane survival.
Rogue = can't think of when Rogues are OP.
Priest = The end of LK with disc healing. and Spriest super damage + mana drain.
Shaman = elemental was god in BC days. I was able to stand there just cast LB against a warrior. and let the warrior interrupt me all he wants. I would kill him with 50% hp left.
Druid = the end of LK, blizzard buffed bleed damage. Feral druid was doing crazy amount of damage in arena. They were getting 5 combo points. Instant cyclone. let energy get full. Burst down after cyclone expires.
MONK = yet to been seen

Here's some fun stuff I remember:

Warriors:
Vanilla: sword proc madness, instagib people left and right. 3k mortal strikes against people with 2900hp
BC: "Skillherald" - look it up if you don't remember
Wotlk: The brostorm era

DK's:
Wotlk: you could use /castrandom in arena and win
Cata: Blood DK's when vengeance worked in pvp. Hard counter all melee. 110k death strikes. Dancing rune weapon necrotics for 40k heal absorb. Yeah it was a gimmick and didn't work against mages, warlocks, or spriests, but still

Rogues:
Vanilla: the real stunlock. There used to be no pvp trinket and you'd die in an actual kidney shot not a blind vanish gouge smoke bomb repeat blah blah.
BC: combat rogues with mace stun. Legendaries
Wotlk: legendaries, FAN OF KNIVES OMG
Cata: legendaries

Mages:
Vanilla: double trinket pom pyro madness
BC: don't remember
Wotlk: shatter combos
Cata: shatter combos and 100 ways to freeze you

Priests:
Vanilla: Shadow priests hit... so... hard. Mind blast mindflay dead. They didn't really have any other spells.

Shaman:
Vanilla: Elemental shaman in tier 2 or higher. Double trinket, chain lightning, earth shock dead. period. Like quad boxing shaman, except this was One shaman.
Enhance shaman used 2h and a windfury proc was an instakill.

Hunters:
Vanilla or BC can't remember: pet enrage, solo clothies.
Wotlk: explosive shit
Cata: ???

Warlocks:
Vanilla: A brief and little known era with extreme spell coefficient on shadowbolt gave you 3k+ crits. Also, seduce+soul fire (there was no trinket so you were either undead, or dead)
others: several times affliction was dot and run. i mean really just run away and they died

Druid:
End of BC, End of wotlk insane bleed damage. Stacking cat bleeds and bear bleeds then running away

[zenga]

Just adding up the numbers...
My ten box team (8 shaman, 2 heals) might not one-shot an AFK opponent, with all cooldowns used.
Eight toons casting the same thing (your strongest spell, with specials/cooldowns), should one-shot anything; it is eight toons.

The current nature of the shaman spec is that mastery is part of the damage of a spell. If you say hardest hitting ability (which is elemental blast buffed by unleash elements) then you have to factor in the chance to overload (e.g. if a spell hits for 100 with a 50% chance to overload for 75% of the damage then the actual spell deals (100+100+75)/2 = 137.5 damage). Either way if 8x elemental blasts don't kill a target in 1 shot, then you are extremely unlucky that not a single one overloads. or you are doing something wrong gear/stats/rotation wise.

[Ualaa]

That particular team hasn't leveled yet.

Just analyzing the damage number people posted, times 8 shaman (which was the plan for the team).
Against the average health of a PvP geared opponent (again, as given in the earlier post, from this thread).
And it added up to, about 10k damage short of someone's full health.

[zenga]

That particular team hasn't leveled yet.

Just analyzing the damage number people posted, times 8 shaman (which was the plan for the team).
Against the average health of a PvP geared opponent (again, as given in the earlier post, from this thread).
And it added up to, about 10k damage short of someone's full health.
Ah misread it then. Either way the average overload damage should be factored in as it's an integral part of how the spell works.

[valkry]

Here's some fun stuff I remember:

Warriors:
Vanilla: sword proc madness, instagib people left and right. 3k mortal strikes against people with 2900hp
BC: "Skillherald" - look it up if you don't remember
Wotlk: The brostorm era

DK's:
Wotlk: you could use /castrandom in arena and win
Cata: Blood DK's when vengeance worked in pvp. Hard counter all melee. 110k death strikes. Dancing rune weapon necrotics for 40k heal absorb. Yeah it was a gimmick and didn't work against mages, warlocks, or spriests, but still

Rogues:
Vanilla: the real stunlock. There used to be no pvp trinket and you'd die in an actual kidney shot not a blind vanish gouge smoke bomb repeat blah blah.
BC: combat rogues with mace stun. Legendaries
Wotlk: legendaries, FAN OF KNIVES OMG
Cata: legendaries

Mages:
Vanilla: double trinket pom pyro madness
BC: don't remember
Wotlk: shatter combos
Cata: shatter combos and 100 ways to freeze you

Priests:
Vanilla: Shadow priests hit... so... hard. Mind blast mindflay dead. They didn't really have any other spells.

Shaman:
Vanilla: Elemental shaman in tier 2 or higher. Double trinket, chain lightning, earth shock dead. period. Like quad boxing shaman, except this was One shaman.
Enhance shaman used 2h and a windfury proc was an instakill.

Hunters:
Vanilla or BC can't remember: pet enrage, solo clothies.
Wotlk: explosive shit
Cata: ???

Warlocks:
Vanilla: A brief and little known era with extreme spell coefficient on shadowbolt gave you 3k+ crits. Also, seduce+soul fire (there was no trinket so you were either undead, or dead)
others: several times affliction was dot and run. i mean really just run away and they died

Druid:
End of BC, End of wotlk insane bleed damage. Stacking cat bleeds and bear bleeds then running away
DRUID: ALL of BC as resto for 2v2. Run with a war, rogue or lock, get glad, the end

[Nikita]

The funny thing is that if ele shamans had the stuff they have now back in s10, we would be pretty decent. On par with frost mages and rogues.

[Shodokan]

The funny thing is that if ele shamans had the stuff they have now back in s10, we would be pretty decent. On par with frost mages and rogues.

Ascendance would have been overpowered in cata.

Rogue: Vanilla, s2, s3, s4, s7, s9, s10, s11
Mage: Always good, not once were they bad
Warlock: s2, s3, s4 (sl/sl + rdruid), s5 (anti-dk), s8, s10, s11
Hunter: I dont remember them being OP pre wrath but s5 was broken with LnL procs, s6 african turtle cleave, s7-8 beast cleave, s9 KFC, s10 PHD, s11 PHD/thug/jungle/triple DPS, s12 anything
Warrior: Vanilla, s2, stunherald + mace spec, sword spec s3 (shaman+warrior+X wind fury totem cleave), s7, s8, s9, s10 kitty cleave was still good but not OP, s12
Ele shaman: Vanilla, s7/8 LSD, they always had at least 1 viable comp but were never OP, really good in 5's though.
Enhance shaman: Vanilla, s3 (i think, might have been s4), s7-8 beast cleave, s9 turbo cleave, s12 turbo cleave. Any time resto druids have been REALLY strong enhance has been good due to purge and a few other mechanics
Resto druid: s2-4. s7, s8, s9, s12
Feral druid: s2 (may have been 3), s7, s9 (fmp was very very strong), s10 (jungle, kitty cleave), s11 (jungle)
Paladin: s2 (holy), s4 (holy), s5(holy, ret), s6-7 (protret, protholy), s8(smourne ret), s9 (ret), s10 (ret), s11(ret)
Priest: Vanilla spriest, s2 (spriest), s6 (disc), I don't remember s7 priests, s8 (disc, shadow), s9 (disc, shadow), s10 (disc, shadow), s11 (disc, shadow), s12 (shadow)
DK: s5, s7, s8 (smourne), s9 (instant hungering), s10 (smokebomb cleave, scleave, ret/dk/priest, triple dps), s11 (triple dps, ret/dk/priest)

Almost every class and spec has been viable at all times to glad and tons of times where things are stupid OP but above is when i remember things are very very strong.

[heyaz]

The current nature of the shaman spec is that mastery is part of the damage of a spell. If you say hardest hitting ability (which is elemental blast buffed by unleash elements) then you have to factor in the chance to overload (e.g. if a spell hits for 100 with a 50% chance to overload for 75% of the damage then the actual spell deals (100+100+75)/2 = 137.5 damage). Either way if 8x elemental blasts don't kill a target in 1 shot, then you are extremely unlucky that not a single one overloads. or you are doing something wrong gear/stats/rotation wise.

Yeah with 8 shaman and unleash elements you should get darn close to a 1 shot with lava burst without overload. Without overload, probably not unless you are pulling over 50k lvb which is about 30%+ pvp power.

Elemental blast is kinda lame, but it's something when LVB is on cooldown and you decide you don't want the super elementals. But it has a 12 second cooldown also. You'd expect something like chaos bolt.
- It is not affected by unleash elements
- Has no guaranteed crit or any other interesting mechanic. Shaman fully geared have.. get ready for this - 10% crit (unless you're not reforging any of it and reforging haste back to crit)
- The buff is random to a stat; it doesn't prefer your highest stat, which is irritating

The primal elementals have issues too. They're awesome when they're up, hit decent, stun, annoy the hell out of people, etc. but when you start doing your round robin tremors, guess what, bye earth ele because I dropped a tremor. Fire eles are decent though and you shouldn't have a fire totem overlap.

About the only shaman thing that hits decent right now is Fulmination, but it also has no special crit mechanic, and it's a proc. I've been doing a lvb, lb, earth shock sequence for kills because at least one shaman is gonna get some nasty 60-80k fulmination. You can occasionally get lucky and 4x earth shock a guy down to 30% right off the bat. Then you got no flame shock up though :)

[zenga]

Elemental blast is kinda lame, but it's something when LVB is on cooldown and you decide you don't want the super elementals. But it has a 12 second cooldown also. You'd expect something like chaos bolt.
- It is not affected by unleash elements
- Has no guaranteed crit or any other interesting mechanic. Shaman fully geared have.. get ready for this - 10% crit (unless you're not reforging any of it and reforging haste back to crit)
- The buff is random to a stat; it doesn't prefer your highest stat, which is irritating

Elemental blast is most definitely affected by unleash elements since it's a fire, nature and frost spell at the same time (which also makes that you can cast it instant with Ancestral Swiftness).
It costs zero mana, which is not unimportant in pvp.
It can overload.
It provides a random crit/mastery/haste buff for 8seconds.

Taking all those into account, it's a spell I absolutely love and - contrary to you - I find it a very interesting mechanic compared to most spells in the game, a spell which fits the nature of the ele spec pretty well.

On an unrelated note: an Unleash elements/ instant elemental blast combo followed by an instant lava burst followed by a full earth shock ... if the earth shock or ele blast crits and if either the lava burst or EB overloads that is some pretty wicked damage. and not that hard to setup (wait for lava surge prock and full fulmination stack).

The problem of ele for me is their weak defense and lightning bolt hitting for nothing. Their weak defense is mainly because it's impractical (the required imbue dancing for example). Thing is that ele is very competitive in pve atm, and the damage scales really well with gear. So I don't expect any damage buffs soon (the damage I can do during ascendance in my gear on my main is absolutely sick).

What would work for me though:

- glyph for lightning bolt: the dmg is halved and the cast time is halved, and the chance to proc a ls shield stack reduced in proportion. This way it would become a real filler spell, and would have no repercussions for pve ( since haste won't affect it since it's under the gcd). Kinda like mass dispell glyph in cata. currently the risk of getting locked (or the waste of time by fake casting) does not really compare to the dmg it does
- astral shift should workd while in a stun
- ghost wolf glyph should become baseline
- lightning bolt ignores player armor (like chaos bolt)

There are really only a few tweaks needed to turn it from an underpowered spec into a very competitive contender. (talking from a solo pov)

[heyaz]

ah, did not realize ele blast counted as fire. in that case I'll try that out. With unleash elements and an insta cast (although I have always been an elemental mastery kinda guy) that's gonna be some sick damage.

On another note, survivability, first tier I can't quite figure out. Astral shift isn't castable in cc and is pretty short. Nature's Guardian is nice being passive but it's really just one more hit from any class and you're dead. Stone bulwark is scaling nicely with gear and (I think) pvp power as well, but... another cooldown to manage, another earth totem to overwrite when you get feared. :/

From a solo perspective (I've been playing the main one a bit) it's not horrible. From a boxing perspective the problem is not even being able to get a cast off or get set up because the cc comes in so fast and comes with damage as well. It's like my worst fear from wotlk - shadowfury but now every class has a much worse variant of it that does crazy damage as well.

[zenga]

ah, did not realize ele blast counted as fire. in that case I'll try that out. With unleash elements and an insta cast (although I have always been an elemental mastery kinda guy) that's gonna be some sick damage./

I no longer use EM in pvp, it adds little to ascendance, and even less outside of ascendance. Ancestral swiftness provides you with an extra 5% haste buff (stacks with elemental oath) so you can reforge into mastery. with enough haste left for shorter bolts/heals. And every minute an instant hex, heal or elemental blast. Echo is too unreliable for me, just like dragonwrath was. It's hilarious when it procs however.


On another note, survivability, first tier I can't quite figure out. Astral shift isn't castable in cc and is pretty short. Nature's Guardian is nice being passive but it's really just one more hit from any class and you're dead. Stone bulwark is scaling nicely with gear and (I think) pvp power as well, but... another cooldown to manage, another earth totem to overwrite when you get feared. :/

Against caster setups I go with nature's guardian, which is basically a buffed battlemaster trinket on a 30s cd. Against melee I prefer astral shift for now, it often make them having to swap during their cds. For stone bulwark totem there is a neat trick if you are only interested for the initial shield (like stoneclaw totem used to work) in combination with totemic restoration. Just make a macro like

/run DestroyTotem(2);

Drop SBT, hit the macro that will kill your totem, and the cd resets to 30s.

Either way once warriors, bm hunters and mages get toned down a bit things will look a bit better / less hopeless for the stubborn ele shamam who still pvp's.

[heyaz]

Well, EM still has its perks. 30% haste is A LOT, and for 20 seconds. EM+Ascendance is pretty nasty, but that's usually what I save it for.

It affects your healing rain, stream, and tide totems as well, and helps you heal faster if you need to. That being said, I never use EM to heal myself :/

Shame I can't have both that and insta cast. But there are so many scenarios where I need an instant cast and all I have is a lvb or shock on a shaman or two and that's not going to be a kill shot.

How's your team doing btw? I'm assuming you're doing 5s

[Shodokan]

Yeah. 5's is horrible. My guildies are running warrior/warrior/mage/hpal/rdruid and just facerolling everything since the opposing team is either stunned, snared, cloned, feared, repented, sheeped or rung. All while their entire team can swap to someone during a frost bomb and get a kill no matter what defensives are used.

So fucking stupid.

To anyone who wants to solo-box 3's play a mage... all instant casts (top mages aren't using frost bolt unless their silences/ranged interupts are down and only for burst during deep anyway). Sheep shit to DR, instant ring, frost bomb, deep, nova, blink away... repeat while spamming ice lance lmfao.

[Nikita]

I recently respecced into SBT, and that passive thingy where your totems CD is reduced up to 50%. Its helps alot to survive the initial burst, players tend to kill my HTT ,and HST. So having those on a low CD is a must, also grounding feels like spammable since that gets "destroyed" real quick.

My kill combo is AS, EB, ES, Lvb spam. It does take a good chunck of the players health, and you can switch real quick to get that kill. Atleast I can cap my shamans in 5s now, no more 2 hour cap session!

[zenga]

How's your team doing btw? I'm assuming you're doing 5s

Not pvp'ing atm as a boxer, mainly because my main shamans are on different realms since I progress raid with different guilds. But the fact that I have to farm bg's first in order to get pvp gear kills it for me, since I've changed my stance on boxing bgs and thus refuse to run them. Besides playing solo, I'm focussing on challenge modes with my team where I have one clear goal, but the chances I'll pull it off are pretty small. Still having a blast trying. And lastly, despite all my motivation for this season, all the drama at the end of last season and seeing how much cheating was going on + no mmr reset were a huge bummer as well.

[Toned]

No MMR reset was stupid... every expansion or even season should reset MMR.

[BobGnarly]

Warlocks:
Vanilla: A brief and little known era with extreme spell coefficient on shadowbolt gave you 3k+ crits. Also, seduce+soul fire (there was no trinket so you were either undead, or dead)
others: several times affliction was dot and run. i mean really just run away and they died


Can't forget the BC SoulLink warlock. That was single-handedly the most broken thing I've seen in wow pvp. It wins over the rest, imo, because it had incredible damage and survivability at the same time.

[roddo]

I rocked as a solo played SL/SL lock in BC pvp. Grab a healer and go win regardless of gear. 5's i was the first one dead usually, as i was the most dangerous and thus the one focused first most of the time.