Your thoughts on the ret "bandwagon"?

[Shodokan]

I'm not really sold on them for 5's. I plan on using mine for 3's but for 5's it just seems they lack a lot for stacking them being successful to high rating.


Abilities
Emancipate: Great for getting out of mage things and roots but otherwise... not really worth using the mana just to get out of slows and such.
Blinding light: Non glyphed this breaks on dots so if you are target swapping your blind will break due to censure. Glyphed you can't really chain it due to DRs. If you use SoR you will break due to AOE. Would need to be running seal of insight + battle healer in order for 6 second blind to be good.
WoG: Great that it has decent healing and great that it's cooldown is removed but due to the nature of the team and their overall "squishiness" after bubble and divine protection are down effecting the team's damage very highly (already some of the lowest sustained damage in the game)
Devotion aura: 24 seconds of casting for your healer or if you need to heal your own toons.
Blessing of protection: Useful... AFTER bubble and your forbarance is over, breaks interact with target. Cannot be chained on your healer.
Hammer of justice: 3 hojs = 10 seconds of stun so focus stunning isn't the greatest use, but talented you can get 4 6 second stuns which will need to be trinketed, and if you can manage to get 4 more 30 seconds later it can likely lead to a kill.
Hand of freedom: Great to chain on your healer or 5th dps so he can never really be slowed or rooted since you have emancipate.


Talents
Long arm of the law is basically mandatory


Repentance is almost useless for us unless we end up doing something like popping devotion aura + casting it on 4 targets that are in LoS
Fist of justice is nice for getting kills faster if your partner has a slow (frost dk/warrior)
Burden of guilt is great for playing with healers.


Clemency over hand of purity unless against a dot cleave (fire mage, lock, spriest/boomkin, double healer)


Holy avenger - Simply the best burst for our buck (50% total extra damage)
Sanctified wrath - 30 second wings is amazing but its usefulness depends on hammer of wrath damage which doesn't seem too high
Divine purpose - reason rets were not viable last expansion, higher proc chance is nice if you are only using TV but when tracking HP its kinda a bitch.


Holy prism - Damage + heal which would be nice since it heals 5 allies on top of it's damage... but its only like a 15k hit, 30k crit per person
Execution sentence - Damage OR HoT, hits for 25k crits for 50k (last two hits hit for this amount iirc) on a 1 min CD


Viable partners
Resto shaman - Anti-fear, hex, more interupts, can help DPS, spirit link, healing tide, earth elemental (talented) for stun, stormlash totem
Resto druid - Cyclone, Hots for everyone, ursol's vortex to keep people near you during burst phase, typhoon for disruption, NS for clone or instant heal, bash (stun), have their own version of vanish, natures vigil for AOE healing
Mist weaver monk - high mobility to GTFO if focused, Sweep the leg's DR is 2 seconds so you can have 7 seconds of knockdown on a target (AKA they cannot move even if they trinket), revival, disarm (for getting rid of weapons during recklessness etc)


BM hunter - Burst, silence or binding shot, trap, tranq shot for getting rid of bops/mage barriers/priest bubbles
Warrior - Burst, Fear, 20% extra crit damage, disarm, silence, MS effect, rallying cry, AOE slow, possible AOE disrupt or root, anti-ice block/bubble/bop
DK- Burst, Silence, AOE stun (or they can use a trinket or AOE grip), non peelable for about 40 seconds (including your HoF), AOE slow, death grip, anti-healing
Rogue - Burst, Control, AOE stealth, slow, MS effect, silence


Just wondering what you think, what you plan on playing etc. I enjoy 3's more than 5's but i still want to play all my comps in 5's somehow.


Seems to me the best options are:


Warrior, Hunter, DK, Shaman, Druid... rogue can be good but with warlock being to spec AOE for almost a quarter of the map its viability goes down.

[Owltoid]

Why are you concerned with the mana cost of emancipate?

[Shodokan]

Why are you concerned with the mana cost of emancipate?

Spamming it is a mana hog, if you need to heal without selfless healer or wog then you eat through mana anyway (and this can occur a lot in pvp, especially 3's)

[remanz]

Holy prism is 20 sec CD right ?It is quite good.
I haven't seen the burst , yet , at fresh level 90, I do 19k stationary single target DPS, boxed. Where manually played arm warrior with same ilvl does 35k. Boxed warrior can do 20-25k dps i guess. Some tuning needed I guess.

I plan to play Ret also, if boxing not working out, I will try to play 2s or 3s solo. One thing I've been thinking is how to counter a Rogue/Druid(or monk) combo. Rogue just seems to have Rets number. Trinket first kidney. Bubble second. Then I am completely naked. Meanwhile my burst 1 v 1 against a healed Rogue is just not enough to drop him. Ret has this dry period after wing where it can only heal (by hitting something). But if it is stunned, it cannot output damage nor heal itself.

For partner, personally, I'd go for double dps. 1Heal 1 dps is drag. Double dps go hard or go home. So probably Ret + Warrior, Ret + Rogue, Ret + Hunter.

[Palee]

I took my 10 pallies up to lvl 83 and I got really bored of their playstyle. I also did an AV and the survivability is very high but the damage is low due to having to chase opponents all the time.
In arena they might be OK but in large scale pvp they struggle when there are a bunch of casters around.
I'm probably going to stick with DKs. Arena is nice, but not that important for me. I need a class that I enjoy the most more than getting high ratings in arena.
Besides 8 death grips are nice. So I'm doing 2 holy pallies and 8 dks.
I'm wondering if to replace a holy pally with a resto shaman. What do you think?

[remanz]

Second holy doesn't bring much. AOE anti fear alone makes shaman worth it. Not to mention other goodies like bloodlust, spirit link, and stormlash totem.

[Palee]

Yea I thought so. What about replacing both holy pallies with 2 resto shamans? Would that be better than one holy one shaman?

[remanz]

personally, i think holy pally is a weak group healer. When all your DKs are eating AOEs, you holy radiance is the only way out. Once that's on CD, you just can't bring the group back. 2nd resto sounds good to me. Tremor is on 1 min CD. 2nd one makes it better.

Then thing I am not sure is how squishy is resto at level 90. Ideally, a priest is better for the main healer.

[EaTCarbS]

personally, i think holy pally is a weak group healer. When all your DKs are eating AOEs, you holy radiance is the only way out. Once that's on CD, you just can't bring the group back. 2nd resto sounds good to me. Tremor is on 1 min CD. 2nd one makes it better.

Then thing I am not sure is how squishy is resto at level 90. Ideally, a priest is better for the main healer.

Erm. Holy Pallies are one of the best (if not the) healers for a multiboxer simply because you can sit there and spam heals while still taking hits.

[Ualaa]

I like the Holy Paladin as the healer, because of the defenses/survivability.
Place the Paladin anywhere, and set focus (via mouse over) with scroll wheel up.
Remove focus with scroll wheel down.

Whoever they go for, move over their frame and scroll wheel up.

Alternate between the two macros (two step, essentially):
#show
/castsequence [@focus,exists] Flash of Light, Flash of Light
/cast [@focus,exists] Holy Shock

#show
/castsequence [@focus,exists] Holy Shock, Holy Shock, Holy Shock, Word of Glory

One macro to click for bubble, another for every ability except Aura Mastery (which would now be Devotion Aura) and a last one for Devotion Aura (formerly Aura Mastery).

A very easy healer to play, with minimal input required on a boxers part.
Definitely, not nearly as optimally played as someone who actively controls the one healer on the team... but boxed, its simple and has:
a) Plate + Shield
b) Bubble
c) Great single target healing throughput
d) Takes very little management, for a boxer

They're a weak group healer, in the sense that aside from Beacon of Light you're not really healing more than one character at a time.
They're a strong group healer, in the sense that no matter who the other side is beating on the Paladin can easily be switched to superb single target healing of the toon who needs healing.

[remanz]

Well I got more pvp gear now. and things did get a bit better. Still rocking the 3.3 speed ilvl 450 weapon. But Rets start to show some power. For PVE 3 holy power Templar's Verdict is a pretty big DPS LOSS. I would say around 10-20% DPS loss if I use every TV with just 3 HP. So I have to go back and improve the macro a bit. For PVP, Rets fear no melee, but warlocks and mages are problematic as usual. 70% run speed on judgement is really nice to chase them down. But warlocks can take a lot of beatings and still dish out crazy amount of damage.

[Ualaa]

What about having a mix of DKs and Rets?

One of the benefits of the DKs is the Death Grip.
That can bring a target back into melee range, partially or totally negating many root/snare effects.

[remanz]

Frost DK is kinda squishy comparing to Rets. And so far I see DKs are definitely a better offensive machine as counters for casters. But obviously with less Rets, you need someone else to heal you. If you heal it yourself, then its just for BG. It wouldn't quite work for Arena. Then we go back to HPally + 4DK vs DK + 4Rets discussion. If you have someone else to heal you or you drive the healer, then you don't need any Rets.

[Negativ1337]

What are your thoughts about Inquisition?



Inquisition




Increases Holy damage done by 30%.
Increases critical strike chance by 10%.
10 seconds remaining

I basically made the following DPS Key map in ISBoxer:

DPS KEY ( press or release ):
Assist focus
IWT
Hammer of Wrath > All
Excorcism > All
Crusader Strike > All
Judgement > All
Templar's Verdict > All

The problem is, i want to use Inquisition which can be used with one holy power. With one HP you will have the buff for 10 seconds. If you use it on 3 HP you will have it for 30 sec.

I want to go in arena and get 3 HP, use Inquistion for the DPS buff, then switch over to the key map above to use holy power on Templar's Verdict.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks in advance,

Negativ1337

[Apatheist]

The biggest problem I see with Emancipate is the fact that it only knocks off the first debuff on the list. A lot of classes have auto-slow effects (or at least effects that apply through their normal damage abilities). A Mage might nova you in the middle of a fight and you would have to cast Emancipate 2-3 times to get through all the slow debuffs before you get rid of the nova.

I don't see rets being "squishy" though. Selfless Healer, plate, battle healer glyph, WoG, multiple cooldowns, etc. Seems like they have a ton more sustain than DK's. My only issue with switching from DK's to Rets is probably the same as everyone elses - no grip.


What are your thoughts about Inquisition?

You generate HP at a ridiculous rate now. Just about everything Rets do generates a charge. Only way I can see to manage it is to make a two step keymap. First keymap casts Inq with a 10 second wait (pressed or released) before moving to step 2. Second step blank. This would effectively give the ability a 10 second cooldown, but it would use Inq. whether it was at 1 charge or 3.

Otherwise, you could just set up a "hold holy power" key (alt, shift, etc) that DPS's without using HP while you hold it. Then release it to "burst" when you can see 3 HP on all your toons. More efficient but also more to manage.

[Ualaa]

I figured the original team is 1x Paladin (Heals) & 4x Death Knights (Damage).
And that I would go with the inverse 4x Ret Pallies (Damage & Heals) & 1x Death Knight (AoE DeathGrip, Ranged Snare, Group Haste, etc).

Then I got the idea of 10-boxing...
With 5x Rets (leveling these now, to join the existing team) + 1x Holy Paladin & 4x Death Knights.

Ten toons is not really an arena team, but this thread is the Ret Bandwagon and not the 5-man arena thread.




You might want a priority build, with Inquisition in it.
And the Inquisition macro is set to fire off once and then hit a null, with a manual reset (say Alt).

That way, you spam away and Inquisition fires up whenever it does.
And it won't fire again, unless your spam key is done with the modifier.
There's not much point in casting a 1-3 Holy Power Inquisition, via random priority mashing... while you still have 22 seconds on the buff.
But once the buff is about to go, if combat persists you would want it up for sure.

You could also put it into a castsequence.
If your priority abilities were Judgement, Crusader Strike and Templar's Verdict (each its own key)...
Your Inquisition could be: /castsequence reset=alt Crusader Strike, Judgement, Templar's Verdict, Inquisition

Meaning...
If your spam key called (A) Judgement, (B) Crusader Strike, (C) Templar's Verdict, and (D) the Inquisition castsequence...
As you spam, you might get A, C, A, D, B, A, C, D, A, B (or whatever).
Until you've had (in order) A > B > C fire off, your D cannot fire off Inquisition.
But if A or D is called first, the Judgement fires and the D macro advances.
Once A or D has fired off, the D macro advances if B or D is called, and once either of those has fired off, it advances again on C or D.

An alternative might be like the Death Knights using Horn of Winter (20 sec cooldown) as a delay.
If you could use a Pally ability with a cooldown that would work too.
/castsequence Fist of Justice (30 sec cooldown ability), Inquisition
That would be one of the spam keys, probably lower priority meaning you'd have Holy Power before it fired off... and it would fire off regularly, shortly after the Fist of Justice cooldown...
Something with a 20-25 second cooldown might be better, if you can find such an ability.

[Apatheist]

Castsequences with short duration buffs are never going to be 100% optimal. I still think it's worth it for the minor DPS loss. The less buffs/buttons you have to watch, the less chance of being distracted and standing in fire.

In PvP, it's a different story. I'd manage it manually for sure. You need reliable burst, so you'd to store up 3 HP, pop Inq, wait for another 3 HP and then blow cooldowns and burst someone. Not having Inq up during cooldowns is a huge burst loss.

I'm working out a setup with:

/stopcasting
/cast [@focus] Flash of Light

On 4 steps, with a round-robin-esque 2.5 second delay between each step in the default rotation. This way, I can adjust the focus with a mouseover macro to whichever toon is being . . . focused? and not need to micromanage heals until they switch or damage stops (/clearfocus to hold on to Selfless Healer procs). Have a second hotkey that I can press manually to blow all the instant FoL's if I get super bursted.

[Khatovar]

I'm not a pvp person, but I do run Ret (http://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/47938-The-MoP-Macro-Library/page5?p=367971#post367971). I just use a castsequence to get Inq up and keep it from recasting until it needs to.