PvP MoP Group - DK + 4 Pally vs 2 DK + 3 Pally

[Owltoid]

I'm starting to conclude that PvP with casters is just too difficult. I'm switching to melee. The ability to swarm and not need to face targets so you can focus on other things going on it just too important for my skillcap.

Originally I was thinking 2 DK, 2 Ret, 1 Warrior, and then I came across the pally version of atonement: http://mop.wowhead.com/item=81956/glyph-of-the-battle-healer#comments

While solo boxers may not care, for multiboxers I believe this is huge. Between a ton of passive healing through the glyph and a large amount of burst healing (Selfless Healer, Holy Prism), ret pallys should keep a team alive with ease, while not sacrificing their burst resource (holy power).

I know the most successful melee teams have been DKs, and I believe that's because of the ability to control where the target stands. Is it worth it to have two DKs (three rets) so that I have two deathgrips (and two Gorefiend's Grasp) versus the easier to play composition of one DK and four rets (drive from the DK)? One thing to remember is that the pallys will have great movement speed through either Long Arm of the Law or Pursuit of Justice.

I just want to dominate random BGs. Given my skillcap, I won't be a force in arena or RBGs.... I just want to win and be a big factor in the win! I'm just unsure if only having one DK is enough to keep the killing continuous or if I'm going to be kited everywhere.

[Peli]

This is part of the reason why I'm planning on boosting 4 pallies next. Pallies and DKs look to be very complimentary in MoP.

[Owltoid]

I realized I have one 69 DK and four 68 pallys. Looks like I'm going with 1-4! I'll just be conservative with the death grip

[Shodokan]

I realized I have one 69 DK and four 68 pallys. Looks like I'm going with 1-4! I'll just be conservative with the death grip

You'll do better with the extra ret opposed to dk.. Dks are going to be hard to actually play and do the most damage possible now while boxing. They are going to be FAR from howling blast spam.

[Owltoid]

Sacred Shield stacks now..... Wow, this could be amazing!!

[Shodokan]

Sacred Shield stacks now..... Wow, this could be amazing!!

It all depends on if the HP spent is worth it. It would be GREAT for anti-burst for sure.

Especially to throw on a healer partner if you do tripple ret + dk + healer 5's or something.

[Owltoid]

The wowhead calculator may be wrong, but currently Sacred Shield does not cost any resources (mana or HP). If it ends up costing mana then no big deal. If it ends up costing HP then Selfless Healer may be the way to go

[Shodokan]

The wowhead calculator may be wrong, but currently Sacred Shield does not cost any resources (mana or HP). If it ends up costing mana then no big deal. If it ends up costing HP then Selfless Healer may be the way to go

Selfless healer can be dispelled.

If it has no HP cost then it will likely end up being better than selfless healer but we'll have to see how it works in practice.

[Ualaa]

The wowhead talent calculator shows Necrotic Strike as not requiring any rune resource.
Chances are that is wrong, I cannot see it being rune free; but it did previously show Necrotic Strike requiring a Death Rune for use.

[Owltoid]

You're correct about wowhead being wrong regarding some descriptions. I think it mainly has to do with when an ability is learned at a low level and then morphs in a later level. When that happens the new resource cost isn't reflected in the calculator.

With that said, my searches on the web have all mentioned that SS does not cost any resource currently.

[MiRai]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6037333773?page=4#72

We'll probably keep Death Siphon and Necrotic Strike as Death Runes.

[Owltoid]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6037333773?page=4#72

We'll probably keep Death Siphon and Necrotic Strike as Death Runes.

That wasn't really in question. If you find a blue post (or any documentation) that says Sacred Shield costs resources (mana or holy power) then I'd be very interested!

[Fat Tire]

nvm

[Palee]

You'll do better with the extra ret opposed to dk.. Dks are going to be hard to actually play and do the most damage possible now while boxing. They are going to be FAR from howling blast spam.

Shodokan, can you elaborate with this? I'm trying to decide between rets and dks as my first MoP team and I'm not sure.
What do you mean DKs are going to be hard? What changes so drastically?

[Shodokan]

Shodokan, can you elaborate with this? I'm trying to decide between rets and dks as my first MoP team and I'm not sure.
What do you mean DKs are going to be hard? What changes so drastically?

Obliterate is necessary now because of damage disparity between it and HB + plague strike (since you can only necrotic twice now)
You also need spare frost runes for the new execute ability
Have to keep track of rime for HB procs much like rets did for exorcism (which won't be the case come MoP)
Have to use frost runes to icy touch for offensive dispel at opportune times which will set off your rotation.
Basically theres going to be a lot more micromanagement to worry about to play them effectively.

I mean you can negate a lot of it but there will be more DPS rotation buttons and such. It's not going to be like it is now where you bind all your stuff to 1 key and kill something in 4 seconds (though they would have the burst for that if you could re-set runes with diseases up and all oblit 3 times).

Dks and rets will be my first teams more than likely still as theres a lot of utility in each's kit. Shaman look REALLY solid as well.

[Fat Tire]

Basically theres going to be a lot more micromanagement to worry about to play them effectively.





This is pretty close to what I have recently experienced in beta. While playing one solo was not bad as my obliterate burst is decent, I dont know how I would box them effectively anymore. Although to be honest I never have boxed more than 2. I found Soul Reaper overall be something I didnt end up liking at all because it was too difficult to use. The players I played against were on the look out for that spell along with remorseless winter. Both were very difficult to get to work in arena for me in beta, players just avoided both those too easily and I wasnt exactly playing against great players. Hybrids and other classes have alot of self healing and while I think conversion is cool I have difficulty using it effectively, lich borne heal is a full heal with full rp so I cant do both that and conversion at the same time and conversion is just another button to press and screws up my dps if I am in the heat of battle. I found howling blast not as effective as it is on live. Warlocks aoe conflag was more effective, lol.

I like to keep things stupid simple(KISS) and dks were stupid simple, they are not as simple anymore.

With that said I am really enjoying the warriors upfront burst - dragons roar with popping some or all dps cooldowns, even if it gets nerfed a little is still a really strong opener combined with rets burst I think bursting down some healers could be possible. Mistweavers and priests are cake to blow up with resto druids,shamans and holy pals a bit more difficult. If there is anyway I can figure how to cast repentance reliably with rets I think it will be a winner.

[Palee]

Hmm Repent has a 1.5 sec cast? Is that accurate?
It was hard to use it when it was instant cast, now it's going to be almost impossible.

[Palee]

Also, feral druids no longer have charge???

[Fat Tire]

Hmm Repent has a 1.5 sec cast? Is that accurate?
It was hard to use it when it was instant cast, now it's going to be almost impossible.

Well I will miss instant cast repent.

http://mop.wowhead.com/spell=20066 (http://mop.wowhead.com/spell=20066) (mop)

However, having a cc with a small cooldown for a melee class is amazing if you can get it to work. At the moment the cc chains holy pallies are getting is annoying to say the least. hoj/repent/blind and given that these all have a range and are not subject to melee range only is pretty huge.

[Shodokan]

After watching lots of vids and talking to some friends I feel that dks will still be strong. With the recent re-nerf of resil to be around 60% opposed to up to 80% oblits are still critting for 1/3 of the opponent's life. In 5's if you can CC out one healer and sit the other with all your burst going (AOE disease application, and are able to get 3 oblits on each dk + frost strikes + more oblits and dumping your rime procs after your burst phase is over you WILL kill something). The main problem is other than the initial burst dks have no AOE presence like they do on live and you can't kill an entire team inside a spirit link.

For boxing 2 though fat tire other than a few small things dks are still very boxable especially if you have a warrior with you as their DPS can be macro'd very simply it seems. Other than jumping away for charges and such for positioning theres no reason to lead from the warrior anymore. Essentially TSG is just going to need a charge stun to remorseless winter and then burst to win.

Now i'm certainly not saying that dks are going to be the optimal thing to box. But their single target burst is on par with warriors and both are superior to rets in that category. Also with the change to how much RP it costs to frost strike allows for good burst as well as those still hit for 30k a piece and can crit for up to 70k...if you can chain 5 in a row thats going to be another 150k damage which is about 1/2 their HP. With 1s global GCD it will be pretty good still. It also allows you to actually get dispels and not rely on warrior stopping to shatter anything but bubbles/ice blocks.

If you have no healer though, you want 4 rets for the healing.

[Palee]

So how's the mobility? With my dks, after death grips were on cooldown, I'm just a sitting duck. And when a melee would get low, they would run away and a stupid mage would freeze me in place or do their dragonbreath if fire. Hitting hard is good, but if you can't reach the target it's not effective.
Would rets have better mobility with thier self cleanse?

[Shodokan]

So how's the mobility? With my dks, after death grips were on cooldown, I'm just a sitting duck. And when a melee would get low, they would run away and a stupid mage would freeze me in place or do their dragonbreath if fire. Hitting hard is good, but if you can't reach the target it's not effective.
Would rets have better mobility with thier self cleanse?

Thats a problem EVERY melee has.

If your healer can't dispel snares then theres something wrong. You have the option of specing to slows don't really effect you but that removes your ability to slow/root with ease. (if running quad dk don't spec out of slows)
So yes rets have better ability to cleanse it off, but regardless of if you are frozen you will get dragon's breath'd or feared so that is negligable. If you just blow through your defensives and bubbles and such you'll likely lose in those situations anyway.
If you have used multiple grips and still get frozen etc then you are using them at the wrong time, also mage snares DR very fast so after they DR you get 15 seconds on them.
Mages are pretty hard to beat but knowing when to actually use anti-magic shell helps deal with them.
Mages are strong in MoP and will give both rets and dks problems. Spamming cleanse on yourself as ret eats your mana.
If you REALLY want to... use desecrated ground as another trinket, and grip them into it... then stun them with a ret and grip them back to another stun if they blink or get life gripped or whatever away....while on that area you can't be CC'd

They won't have double ring of frost anymore... so you can't really complain compared to the CC they have on live now. Overall if you are running a heallerless comp like dk + 4 rets you can't expect to escape multiple CC's reliably no matter what. That being said... you don't need the slow from howling blast with rets on your team so you can take death's advance which will help with slows but not snares. If you are worried about grips then run with the new AOE grip thing opposed to desecrated ground and 2 dks then have 4 grips total.

[Palee]

Great info Shodokan!

By the way how does the new AOE grip work? It says it pulls nearby enemies to the TARGET of your grip. So basically you have to target yourself to pull all enemies within 20 yards to you?

[Palee]

One more question, what's the best melee single target DPS class in MoP?