Taking the heat

[candlebox]

What i have learned in my past solid year of "Actual" multiboxing (with software, not alt tab).

There is a mixed general consensus on multiboxers as we all know.

You have the people that get farmed for hours non stop by multboxers in towns. Then you get the people that get farmed for hours nonstop in BGs, and Of course you have the supporters who ask a million questions, or hide behind you in pvp, and don't advance.

So to help "delay" the effects of the increasing popularity in multiboxing, I have took it upon myself to start helping people when i can. In not saying every minute i do this, but I do my best to help out the non boxing community.

I help people run CoC, I will ask trade for an extra person for pvp, and drop somone from my team.

We walk a very thin line with multiboxing, and to simply use it for PvP and "Soloing" is a complete waste to the game. We have the ability to help people less fortunate than us, that don't have 2200 ranked friends to run them through CoC.

If our community of boxers does not move to a more positive side note, then I can see blizzard making things "To hard" to box. If you seen the lists of stuns coming out we are already in trouble.

WE MUST promote multiboxing in good fashion. If we don't stop the sliding down the hill, we might all be looking for a new game to box. Yes they said its ok, but we make up a very small portion of the wow economics. If you have 100 people pissing off 10,000+ think about how that looks for sales. Yes, noone will probably insta-quit, but long term effects can be bad.

If you don't care then fine. This post is directed at noone, but reading of AFK'ing durring bgs and such just looks bad for us all. I know that we are the main reason for some wins, but also the reasons for losses. We have to gear our teams by playing, regaurdless of gear.

If we don't build support we are going to see our toons marked as AFK and kicked out of BG's, and I have been kicked out of numerous LFR's when holding 5 spots in the top 4-10 dps spots. "Because I will ninja all the gear".

Food for thought.

[Homer]

I get were your coming from and agree we must be civil.

But I multibox for the sole purpose of "Soloing". When you grab multiple top 100's in pvp and pve on different toons and the level of intelligence of your team mates is still utterly horrible. You spend hundreds of hours(months back in the day) playing a boss fight perfectly or playing an arena perfectly only to loose because 1 person makes 1 mistake. The incompetence is just to much. I have started so I can clear content and PvP without

1. Relying on idiots

2. Making idiots hate me because I call them stupid for being stupid....

The irony of it is most multiboxers(From what I have read/watched) seem to be very competent players(I have yet to see a bad multiboxer once they learn) Except that cocky egotistical guy that could only cast chain heal on 40 shamans. He flew to close to the sun

[candlebox]

I understand your reasoning fully, and it is the same reason why I myself box. All that was meant to be said was that we need support from the non boxing types.

Only so many cookies in the cookie jar. I dread the day we have to start grinding instances again, because it is faster than being farmed in BG's. I try to keep an open mind on this. We have way to many boxers that troll people.

Kinda like being "that guy" at the bar.

[fpsware]

I took a year long break from WoW and have recently, in the last 8 week, started boxing again (been boxing since BC). I multibox because it entertains me. I box because solo play has become boring and tiresome. I box because its fun.

I will frequently stand in SW and "show off", casting various spells and doing the "light show" as it were. I'll answer ALL questions and I have macros (AutoHotKey) for almost all of them. Currently, my teams are 4 man and I PUG a tank or I PUG a healer. I have no hesitation in kicking them if they are failing to perform.

In my personal opinion I don't see the negative multiboxers you're referring to.

[JackBurton]

I agree with all your points. I began boxing in an era where your party relied on the trinity to be successful. PvPing for me is just something I do when I want to hang out with other boxers on my server.

[candlebox]

In my personal opinion I don't see the negative multiboxers you're referring to.

The AFK's and the trolls. Give it time you will run into them.

[kate]

Maybe I'm weird, but I don't really feel like the behavior of someone else who multi-boxes has any real effect on me. It would be like saying "Oh, you play an orc, I play an orc, therefore your behavior reflects on me!"

I mean, I do understand that some boxers are jerks, just like some members of any arbitrary group are jerks. But I'm not, I don't behave like one, and by and large, if someone starts treating me like I'm one because some other boxer was mean to them, I just don't pay any attention to them, and I'm happier for it. People who make the decision to be angry with someone just because that someone shares an arbitrary trait with a group are, frankly, useless to me and not worth my time.

It would be different, I guess, if there were any real danger of multiboxing being banned because there were enough of us, and enough of us behaving badly, to have a significant impact on the ability of other people to enjoy the game, but we are nowhere near that point and really I cannot possibly imagine that we ever would be just because we really are such a VANISHINGLY SMALL part of the population due to the fairly significant investment involved in starting boxing and the learning curve. Most people willing to spend the money and time to learn to do it simply aren't interested in being assholes and putting all of that at risk.

These kinds of threads crop up fairly regularly - people either worrying about how other boxers make them look, or asking other people to regulate their behavior, etc. I'm not saying your idea is a bad one, Candlebox, and by and large I already do help people out just because I'm a nice person, but people ought to do nice things just because they want to and because it's good to be that way, rather than just due to the worry that down the road other people will react badly over something that individual never actually did.

[Apps]

There are two general reasons why a person follows through and does multiboxing rather than like and admire it only..

1. Do it for the challenge / skill.

2. For the varying reasons.. doesnt want to play with others.


There is only one flaw with the OPs ideals... and was pointed out by Homer and Kate. The general assumption is that the rest of the users are similarly responsible and mature. Fact is; they're more often not.

Prime Example right here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAWcSKb8XbI

Its unlikely a boxer is going to be able to convince, or negotiate with this kind of a user. When uneducated, immature and entitled users "feel" offended, that becomes "law". And attempting to educate is seen as combativeness.

It will come to no surprise to read the forums and find thread over thread over thread, where X person handles haters in various ways... just as other forum users will promote not being so bold about it, as they personally "feel" affected somehow.

Again.. Fact is; no one pays for your account but you. Enjoy it how you see fit. (yet don't be surprised of others have an opinion if the decision is to publicize any douchebaggery)

[Truelle]

Blizzard most likely will never ban multiboxing. They don't want to have to monitor it, however if boxers do cause too many issues in Battlegrounds (like Prepared does) all they have to do is remove /follow in Battlegrounds. A very simple change the population would love and multiboxing in battlegrounds would be over.

[MiRai]

Maybe I'm weird, but I don't really feel like the behavior of someone else who multi-boxes has any real effect on me. It would be like saying "Oh, you play an orc, I play an orc, therefore your behavior reflects on me!"
It has nothing to do with race and everything to do with visibility. Multiboxers aren't a "normal" thing for people to see on an everyday basis, but single players who act like jerks are. I don't normally see a cop everyday, but when I do, if the experience is pleasant, then everybody's happy. If the cop is a jackass, then I might think that all cops in that precinct are jackasses.

Think of Hunters, Death Knights, or maybe even Rogues. Three classes that seem to be a magnet for terrible players regardless of how easy the class actually is. Whenever I'm teamed up with a Hunter, Death Knight, or Rogue... they'll have to prove to me that they're not some keyboard turning window licker before I can trust them.

It's the fact that because there are so few of us in game, that when we are actually seen by the public our overall reputation is at stake. If one multiboxer leaves a sour taste in someone's mouth, that person is more likely to believe that all multiboxers are complete douchebags with too much time and money on their hands.

It's not difficult for us, as multiboxers, to act like good citizens rather than be asshats just because we can.

[kate]

How many people have quit playing WoW because they ran into a multi-boxer?

How many multi-boxers with their multiple accounts would quit playing WoW if they couldn't box in battlegrounds?

People threaten to ragequit all the time because they got beaten in a bg or a duel or whatever, but they never do.

People *do* quit, however, when they are literally unable to play the game the way they want. Boxers who like to run battlegrounds being unable to run battlegrounds anymore would most assuredly quit.

Ergo, making boxing impossible in battlegrounds would cost Blizzard more money than not making it impossible, and Blizzard likes money, so they won't do it unless they're feeling stupid.

[Ualaa]

I don't see Blizzard implementing things to make boxing easier or harder, purely because of the impact on boxers.
Everything is done, to improve the game and keep it on top of other games.
If something is good for boxers, or conversely bad for boxers, it is an incidental quirk and not the reason for the change.

Whether the non-boxing community likes us or not, Blizzard will continue to develop their game the same, to appeal to the largest market possible.
The whole CTM/IWT is a major boon to melee teams, but was put in to allow players with disabilities to better play the game.

Blizzard's stance has basically been that multiboxers are tolerated.
They're not actively for or against boxing, but do point out to the haters that it is a perfectly legitimate method of play.



I've run just my four DK's, with someone else doing the healing because they really wanted to...
Whether its me boxing five and stomping the other side, or me boxing four with someone else healing me...
Either way, I'm sure it pisses off the other faction to the same degree.

It might be nice +faction with your server, but its not going to result in extra boxer friendly features.
Nor will playing your five as a group, and never interacting with others, result in the removal of boxing friendly features.

The sentiment of the post is nice, but whether you follow the suggestions or not, I cannot see it impacting boxer either way.

[MiRai]

How many people have quit playing WoW because they ran into a multi-boxer?

How many multi-boxers with their multiple accounts would quit playing WoW if they couldn't box in battlegrounds?

People threaten to ragequit all the time because they got beaten in a bg or a duel or whatever, but they never do.

People *do* quit, however, when they are literally unable to play the game the way they want. Boxers who like to run battlegrounds being unable to run battlegrounds anymore would most assuredly quit.

Ergo, making boxing impossible in battlegrounds would cost Blizzard more money than not making it impossible, and Blizzard likes money, so they won't do it unless they're feeling stupid.
The statement in bold has no factual evidence to back itself up. Throughout your post you are just assuming numbers. I'm not saying your numbers are wrong, because I obviously don't know what the numbers are either. But if we all just keep assuming that we're not pissing enough of the player base off, then we might wake up one day and have lost our ability to play the game how we want to play it. If we piss enough of WoW's player base off, then maybe Blizzard will implement (or not implement) features into their next MMO that will stop multiboxing indirectly.

[kate]

It has nothing to do with race and everything to do with visibility. Multiboxers aren't a "normal" thing for people to see on an everyday basis, but single players who act like jerks are. I don't normally see a cop everyday, but when I do, if the experience is pleasant, then everybody's happy. If the cop is a jackass, then I might think that all cops in that precinct are jackasses.

Think of Hunters, Death Knights, or maybe even Rogues. Three classes that seem to be a magnet for terrible players regardless of how easy the class actually is. Whenever I'm teamed up with a Hunter, Death Knight, or Rogue... they'll have to prove to me that they're not some keyboard turning window licker before I can trust them.

It's the fact that because there are so few of us in game, that when we are actually seen by the public our overall reputation is at stake. If one multiboxer leaves a sour taste in someone's mouth, that person is more likely to believe that all multiboxers are complete douchebags with too much time and money on their hands.

It's not difficult for us, as multiboxers, to act like good citizens rather than be asshats just because we can.

You seem to be under the impression that I don't understand the argument being made for good behavior. I do understand it, but I reject the premise.

Here is why:

1) There is zero burden on me to prove anything to someone else because that person has run into other people who share a trait with me who were jerks. The only person whose actions I am responsible for is me, and I simply will not accept the burden of having to prove anything because of the actions of someone else. I want to be treated as an individual, and I expect to be treated like an individual. When one deals with me, the individual, they should deal with our shared history together because that is the only fair way to deal with me because that is the only history I can be responsible for. I don't care if I remind someone of someone else - I am not that someone else, and holidng me responsible for that someone else's behavior is wrong, period.

2) The same thing is true of me: It is unfair of me to require that another person take on the burden of proving they aren't a jerk just because other people who share a trait with them may have behaved like a jerk. Just as I want to be treated as an individual, so, too, must I treat others as individuals.

3) People who make a point of letting me know that they are putting a burden on me without my consent are being jerks. Anyone who criticizes me simply because I am a multi-boxer (or a hunter, or a dk, or a rogue) and not because I, personally, have behaved poorly, is basically wearing a big flashing sign saying "I am a jerk, and probably not worth listening to." I have very little patience for trying to educate people who don't want to learn, or for discussing things if they are unwilling to change their viewpoint.

4) I agree that it is not difficult to act like a good citizen, and think that the world would be a much better place if everyone were to avoid jerk-like behavior. However, I will absolutely refuse anyone's efforts to put a burden on me to behave in any particular way in the name of the reputations of others. My reputation is *mine* not yours, and your reputation is *yours* not mine. People who cannot or will not understand and accept that are simply not important to me and I won't bother trying to change their opinions. The same goes here - there are some people who post on this forum who engage in behavior I personally find obnoxious, immature, stupid, anti-social, whatever. I don't bother engaging with those individuals, and I don't bother caring about what they say.

Edit: One thing I forgot to say - the only time I feel like it's fair for me to put an expectation on someone is when their behavior *directly* impacts me. I don't feel like other multi-boxers on servers I don't play on, who I don't interact with, who I have never met even on this site, directly affect me, and I don't feel it's likely that them acting like real jerks ever *will* affect me directly. And I don't consider having to rarely have someone insult me for being a boxer a direct impact.

[kate]

The statement in bold has no factual evidence to back itself up. Throughout your post you are just assuming numbers. I'm not saying your numbers are wrong, because I obviously don't know what the numbers are either. But if we all just keep assuming that we're not pissing enough of the player base off, then we might wake up one day and have lost our ability to play the game how we want to play it. If we piss enough of WoW's player base off, then maybe Blizzard will implement (or not implement) features into their next MMO that will stop multiboxing indirectly.

You're absolutely right that I have no evidence, and in fact, no such evidence can exist unless Blizzard were to release the numbers to the public.

However, in my experience as a human being, I often see people getting pissy and ranting about things and threatening to quit and then they do not. Also in my experience as a human being, I see people enjoying a thing and paying money for it, and, when the thing gets changed to where they do not enjoy it they stop paying money for it. Based on those factors, in my experience, it's much more likely for boxers who can't play anymore to quit than it is for angry pissy people who get stomped once in awhile to quit. Is it possible I'm wrong? Surely. Is it likely? Who can say without real numbers? But this is the way my experience in the world says things tend to go. I do not have any experiences with the opposite thing being true (people quitting in droves over one bad experience while other people stay in droves despite the thing they enjoyed being made literally impossible). It's a perfectly reasonable conclusion for me to draw, and the opposite conclusion wouldn't make sense based on my experience of the world.

You seem to be drawing the conclusion that I am advocating for people to not give a shit and be jerks or whatever. That is not true. I like it when people behave nicely and wish that everyone would. However, I do not feel that I have the right to place any kind of expectation on people to behave nicely when they have not explicitly given me cause to believe that they will give me reason to expect that. Just because someone else multi-boxes (like I do) does NOT give me the right to say "Hey, you're representing me now, so behave how I would like you to behave" because that individual has never consented to representing me. Conversely, nobody else has the right to put a burden or expectation on me to behave in a certain way because they are under the mistaken representation that by my multi-boxing I am somehow consenting to represent them.

tl:dr version: People shouldn't be jerks, the world is a better place when they aren't, but if someone who has something in common with me wants to be a jerk I'm not going to bother losing sleep over it or trying to correct them unless we have that kind of relationship.

Edit: Just as I think the world would be a better place if everyone behaved nicely, I also think the world would be a better place if people stopped trying to control other people's behavior when the relationship between those individuals contains no consent from either party to be controlled.

[zenga]

How many people have quit playing WoW because they ran into a multi-boxer?

How many multi-boxers with their multiple accounts would quit playing WoW if they couldn't box in battlegrounds?

People threaten to ragequit all the time because they got beaten in a bg or a duel or whatever, but they never do.

People *do* quit, however, when they are literally unable to play the game the way they want. Boxers who like to run battlegrounds being unable to run battlegrounds anymore would most assuredly quit..

Quite a good chunk of my friend list has quit wow lately (not for good, most are on a break). One of the recurring reasons are the state of rogues in pvp, having complete god mode, both in random bg's and arena. Quite a couple classes basically don't stand a chance versus the average rogue, no matter how good you are. And there are multiple in every random bg, and in a lot of arena teams. The same is true for the human racial, it's OP as fuck since it allows one to equip incredible pve trinkets. Both have become a real problem, due to the representation of both rogues & humans.

I have stopped queuing solo for AV, because of the vast amount of premades who game the queue limitations. Despite it being a BG I really enjoy. And I know many more do so.

Multiboxers represent only a very minor % of the playing population that its now just a 1 time annoyance to deal with.

The point I'm making: if a vast amount of the player base was to start multiboxing in pvp, and you'd meet one in every BG you join, people would definitely stop playing because of multiboxers. They / we can deal with an annoyance that doesn't happen too often, but not with something that becomes a frequent frustration/annoyance.

[Apps]

You seem to be under the impression that I don't understand the argument being made for good behavior. I do understand it, but I reject the premise.

Here is why:

1) There is zero burden on me to prove anything to someone else because that person has run into other people who share a trait with me who were jerks. The only person whose actions I am responsible for is me, and I simply will not accept the burden of having to prove anything because of the actions of someone else. I want to be treated as an individual, and I expect to be treated like an individual. When one deals with me, the individual, they should deal with our shared history together because that is the only fair way to deal with me because that is the only history I can be responsible for. I don't care if I remind someone of someone else - I am not that someone else, and holidng me responsible for that someone else's behavior is wrong, period.

2) The same thing is true of me: It is unfair of me to require that another person take on the burden of proving they aren't a jerk just because other people who share a trait with them may have behaved like a jerk. Just as I want to be treated as an individual, so, too, must I treat others as individuals.

3) People who make a point of letting me know that they are putting a burden on me without my consent are being jerks. Anyone who criticizes me simply because I am a multi-boxer (or a hunter, or a dk, or a rogue) and not because I, personally, have behaved poorly, is basically wearing a big flashing sign saying "I am a jerk, and probably not worth listening to." I have very little patience for trying to educate people who don't want to learn, or for discussing things if they are unwilling to change their viewpoint.

4) I agree that it is not difficult to act like a good citizen, and think that the world would be a much better place if everyone were to avoid jerk-like behavior. However, I will absolutely refuse anyone's efforts to put a burden on me to behave in any particular way in the name of the reputations of others. My reputation is *mine* not yours, and your reputation is *yours* not mine. People who cannot or will not understand and accept that are simply not important to me and I won't bother trying to change their opinions. The same goes here - there are some people who post on this forum who engage in behavior I personally find obnoxious, immature, stupid, anti-social, whatever. I don't bother engaging with those individuals, and I don't bother caring about what they say.

Edit: One thing I forgot to say - the only time I feel like it's fair for me to put an expectation on someone is when their behavior *directly* impacts me. I don't feel like other multi-boxers on servers I don't play on, who I don't interact with, who I have never met even on this site, directly affect me, and I don't feel it's likely that them acting like real jerks ever *will* affect me directly. And I don't consider having to rarely have someone insult me for being a boxer a direct impact.


You're absolutely right that I have no evidence, and in fact, no such evidence can exist unless Blizzard were to release the numbers to the public.

However, in my experience as a human being, I often see people getting pissy and ranting about things and threatening to quit and then they do not. Also in my experience as a human being, I see people enjoying a thing and paying money for it, and, when the thing gets changed to where they do not enjoy it they stop paying money for it. Based on those factors, in my experience, it's much more likely for boxers who can't play anymore to quit than it is for angry pissy people who get stomped once in awhile to quit. Is it possible I'm wrong? Surely. Is it likely? Who can say without real numbers? But this is the way my experience in the world says things tend to go. I do not have any experiences with the opposite thing being true (people quitting in droves over one bad experience while other people stay in droves despite the thing they enjoyed being made literally impossible). It's a perfectly reasonable conclusion for me to draw, and the opposite conclusion wouldn't make sense based on my experience of the world.

You seem to be drawing the conclusion that I am advocating for people to not give a shit and be jerks or whatever. That is not true. I like it when people behave nicely and wish that everyone would. However, I do not feel that I have the right to place any kind of expectation on people to behave nicely when they have not explicitly given me cause to believe that they will give me reason to expect that. Just because someone else multi-boxes (like I do) does NOT give me the right to say "Hey, you're representing me now, so behave how I would like you to behave" because that individual has never consented to representing me. Conversely, nobody else has the right to put a burden or expectation on me to behave in a certain way because they are under the mistaken representation that by my multi-boxing I am somehow consenting to represent them.

tl:dr version: People shouldn't be jerks, the world is a better place when they aren't, but if someone who has something in common with me wants to be a jerk I'm not going to bother losing sleep over it or trying to correct them unless we have that kind of relationship.

Edit: Just as I think the world would be a better place if everyone behaved nicely, I also think the world would be a better place if people stopped trying to control other people's behavior when the relationship between those individuals contains no consent from either party to be controlled.


I bought my very own red shirt. I always wear the red shirt.

Someone was once beaten up by a guy in a red shirt. Now that someone is wary of all red shirt people.

Clearly the abused guy has issues. And for me to say "from now on, all red shirt people should be nicer, because I don't like being profiled." well, that's just naive... NICE! (dont get me wrong... ) Still naive.

totally 100% with Kate on this one.

[kate]

I bought my very own red shirt. I always wear the red shirt.

Someone was once beaten up by a guy in a red shirt. Now that someone is wary of all red shirt people.

Clearly the abused guy has issues. And for me to say "from now on, all red shirt people should be nicer, because I don't like being profiled." well, that's just naive... NICE! (dont get me wrong... ) Still naive.

totally 100% with Kate on this one.

Just don't wear your red shirt if you go on any away missions, okay? The only stereotype that I can say I fully endorse is that red shirts on away missions have a life expectancy somewhat lower than that of a fart in a typhoon.

[jstanthr]

WoW, either some of you guys just like to argue, contradict, or just point out the flaws on other peoples statements. All the OP was saying was that occasionally when people ask for help, actually help them instead of ignoring people. (which i am bad for doing) even if u don't know what other boxers are doing to make other players "bring the hate" i've seen a few of the examples, i've seen other boxers (not mentioning names) that have /spit or somehting like that in their macro so when they kill someone all their toons spit on them, thats just ignorant, it may be seen as "cute" or "funny" to some, but after the 3rd or 4th time some1 gets killed in that manner, it gets old fast. The OP in my opinion is looking out for the long-term, which is admirable and i'll stand beside him 100%. I beleive the jst of it is that you don't have to go out of your way to make boxers look good, but just don't take the actions that make us look bad. i.e constantly campling some1 without reason, inappropriate emotes, things like that. (kinda ranty but owell) lol

[candlebox]

Thanks Jst. I am not sure how this turned into a hate bashing post?

I remember when I first met my multiboxer in AV 5 years ago, hell it was probably one of you guys. I was awestruck. We want people to have a respect like that for us. This is not accusing anyone of being a bad person. If you want to live in your own world, and think that your actions do not directly affect the population than fine.

I am not saying they will remove things, or make things hard. You walk a thin tightrope.

My original rant, is in one of my AV's a draeni went afk in a tower. Then he sat in the GY forever. How do you think that makes the team feel? I think being 10 people in a AV who just go /afk is close enough to boting to me. Hell you might as well hit the space bar every minute to look like an afk bot.

I wanted to post this to start waking people up. Hell if we came together, and showed that we support our communities, they might even implement 10 man raid queing. We take alot from the average guy that works a 8 hour shift comes hope to pvp and relax, and gets farmed in his home city, battlegrounds, TB. It starts with us. If enough people start acting right then it will be "Cool" to have multiboxers again. Not a burden off two people can't leave blacksmith.

It is in your hands in life/game to be a douche or someone people look up to. Remember this.

WE ARE A COMMUNITY. SOLO PLAY OR NOT. The day you decided that you wanted to take on the responsibility of playing multiple roles you joined the community. Like i said, I have been alt-tab playing since BC. Two years ago I picked up keyclone, and a year ago moved to IS.

NO WHERE IN THIS POST did i say to cater to the crybaby trolls. But there are a bunch of people that aren't. You don't have to be politically correct, or even "Not Play" because some QQ'ing in the forums. Just don't be a Jackass because you can.

[Homer]

Thought I would add. They wont increase WoW difficulty or remove features to make multiboxing to hard if they want to stop it. A simple warden script could have u banned before you log in with all 5.

[EaTCarbS]

Thought I would add. They wont increase WoW difficulty or remove features to make multiboxing to hard if they want to stop it. A simple warden script could have u banned before you log in with all 5.

Software boxing, perhaps. To break all multiboxing, all they need to do is remove /follow

[kate]

When disagreement is labeled hate I know that any opportunity for rational discussion has left out of the window. I'm outta this one.

[candlebox]

When disagreement is labeled hate I know that any opportunity for rational discussion has left out of the window. I'm outta this one.

This wasn't a debatable post. I am telling you that an iceberg is in the water and we are going to hit it. Picking apart my sentences, and saying it is irrational is about as dumb as a fat chick on roller blades.

To turn a blind eye to the present problem is going to hurt us. It was supposed to be an influential post, not a lash back.

[kate]

This wasn't a debatable post. I am telling you that an iceberg is in the water and we are going to hit it. Picking apart my sentences, and saying it is irrational is about as dumb as a fat chick on roller blades.

To turn a blind eye to the present problem is going to hurt us. It was supposed to be an influential post, not a lash back.

I disagree with literally every single point you are trying to make in this statement.

I disagree that it wasn't a debatable post. I don't care if you think there can be no debating it - it's cute that you think so, but it's only your opinion, and I do not share it.

I disagree that there is an iceberg in the water.

I disagree that we will hit a non-existent iceberg.

I disagree that there will be any consequences for not hitting a thing that doesn't exist.

I disagree that I am turning a blind eye to a problem that I do not believe exists or that it will hurt anyone if I continue to behave exactly as I have behaved.

I disagree with the idea that even if the impossible dream of every single boxer out there were to suddenly become a wonderful person, sprinkling pixie dust and hugs on all the world that people who get mad and bitch and moan about boxers would stop getting mad and bitching and moaning at boxers.

I disagree that you have any right to put a burden of behavioral expectation onto other people and then call them haters and dumb for telling you that they reject your request.

I disagree that anyone who does currently behave like a jerk in game will be influenced by your post to stop being a jerk in game.

I disagree that a fat person getting exercise is dumb. I also think your analogy and chosen subject of the sentence was misogynistic, but that's an entirely different issue you'll have to deal with on your own.

[valkry]

Quite a good chunk of my friend list has quit wow lately (not for good, most are on a break). One of the recurring reasons are the state of rogues in pvp, having complete god mode, both in random bg's and arena. Quite a couple classes basically don't stand a chance versus the average rogue, no matter how good you are. And there are multiple in every random bg, and in a lot of arena teams. The same is true for the human racial, it's OP as fuck since it allows one to equip incredible pve trinkets. Both have become a real problem, due to the representation of both rogues & humans.

I have stopped queuing solo for AV, because of the vast amount of premades who game the queue limitations. Despite it being a BG I really enjoy. And I know many more do so.

Multiboxers represent only a very minor % of the playing population that its now just a 1 time annoyance to deal with.

The point I'm making: if a vast amount of the player base was to start multiboxing in pvp, and you'd meet one in every BG you join, people would definitely stop playing because of multiboxers. They / we can deal with an annoyance that doesn't happen too often, but not with something that becomes a frequent frustration/annoyance.
I, at every point when I unsub an account (temp or perma retirement) ALWAYS list rogues being OP in pvp as the reason why I am quitting... ALWAYS.

As for the AV, I do it constantly and run into a premade once every 20-30 games or so, I don't stop playing AV entirely though, instead, I see how well I can do against them or ruin their experience. (For example, they like to farm ally at GYs and at the IWB hill. and I managed to convince all but 4 people to stay dead or hide in vann's room. The other 4 were rogues/druid who constantly attacked towers. Horde only got 100 hks and we walked away with 2 towers burned and galv dead which isnt bad against a rathstrat premade)

[jstanthr]

What the point boils down to, we (the community, multiboxers, whoever) are mostly open minded people and don't make generalizations due to one thing or the other that happens. The vast majority of the WoW player base is not this way. For example, and I am not refering to us, just the average joe blow, if he goes to say McDonalds and gets rude service and crappy food he's going to think and say that McDonald's as a whole is crappy and probably won't go to any of them for a while. Most people wouldn't associate that one store with all of the others, but a lot would. Most of the WoW player base if they are just running along questing at low lvls and get killed/ganked whatever you want to call it, by a multiboxer and said multiboxer camps them or even only kills them 2 or 3 times, hes going to more than likely rage over that and think that ALL multiboxers are asshats. Even though the actions of that one boxer do not represent the actions of other multiboxers he isn't going to see it that way, he will make a generalization that all boxers are that way even though we are not. All candlebox was saying is not to go out of your way to do something good, but lay off on going out of your way to be an asshole. And Kate i didn't mean to refer to the discussion as "hate" it just kind of came out that way in my rant. Discussion is a good thing, debating is a good thing, but for some of us to be so nieve to think that what we do has no effect on others whatsoever is just plain wrong. We for the most part are adults and don't normally make generalizations like that, but a lot of the WoW player base is just plain immature and they often do. This boils down to one of those tomatoe tomato arguements. Sorry if i stepped on anyones toes, or ruffled anyones feathers, i did not mean to do so.

I should also make it clear that I don't really think they (blizz) will do anything directly to stop or hinder boxing. The only thing in the near future i see that may affect us is the general evolution of the game. Classes are starting to get pretty complex and require more and more micro-management. I'm sure we'll learn to deal with/work around most of it, but yea thats all....

[Homer]

I have been ganking people the whole time I level its part of the game and I love world PvP.

85's gank low lvls, groups of 5 will take out the opposite faction if they see them and like PvP. Groups of 85s will take over early zones and towns

I understand the perceived asshole image you get ganking people while boxing but that is what the game is about. If you do not want to get ganked as people have been saying for many many years. Roll on a PvE server.

I do not jump on the forums if an 85 comes to ruin my boxing time. I ask in guild if anyone wants to kill him if not. I take a break or change zones. Just like they should

EDIT: Thought I would add this is not how I act/answer if someone gets mad, These comments are for other boxers and my personal opinion.

[Ualaa]

Software boxing, perhaps. To break all multiboxing, all they need to do is remove /follow

The removal of /Follow would absolutely kill the fun for me.

However, you can box a game like Diablo III without follow.
And there isn't follow in the Guild Wars II beta, but people are boxing that.

It (the removal of follow) would likely remove the enjoyment for the majority of boxers.
But I'd imagine many would continue, just to prove they can overcome the challenge.

[MiRai]

What the point boils down to, we (the community, multiboxers, whoever) are mostly open minded people and don't make generalizations due to one thing or the other that happens. The vast majority of the WoW player base is not this way. For example, and I am not refering to us, just the average joe blow, if he goes to say McDonalds and gets rude service and crappy food he's going to think and say that McDonald's as a whole is crappy and probably won't go to any of them for a while. Most people wouldn't associate that one store with all of the others, but a lot would. Most of the WoW player base if they are just running along questing at low lvls and get killed/ganked whatever you want to call it, by a multiboxer and said multiboxer camps them or even only kills them 2 or 3 times, hes going to more than likely rage over that and think that ALL multiboxers are asshats. Even though the actions of that one boxer do not represent the actions of other multiboxers he isn't going to see it that way, he will make a generalization that all boxers are that way even though we are not. All candlebox was saying is not to go out of your way to do something good, but lay off on going out of your way to be an asshole. And Kate i didn't mean to refer to the discussion as "hate" it just kind of came out that way in my rant. Discussion is a good thing, debating is a good thing, but for some of us to be so nieve to think that what we do has no effect on others whatsoever is just plain wrong. We for the most part are adults and don't normally make generalizations like that, but a lot of the WoW player base is just plain immature and they often do. This boils down to one of those tomatoe tomato arguements. Sorry if i stepped on anyones toes, or ruffled anyones feathers, i did not mean to do so.
Amen.

[zenga]

About a year and a half ago, kromtor (http://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/33627-Shamans-in-Arena-week1-my-thought?p=309584&viewfull=1#post309584)described it pretty accurate ino:


on a serious note, the MB on MB crime rates are alarmingly high as is the rate of fatherless MB children. we need to clean up our community and stop championing pimp and gangster culture.

[JackBurton]

Zenga show me how you link to the middle of a web page

[MiRai]

Zenga show me how you link to the middle of a web page
There is a number in the upper right attached to everyone's post in a thread... click on it and it changes your URL.

[Kayley]

I, at every point when I unsub an account (temp or perma retirement) ALWAYS list rogues being OP in pvp as the reason why I am quitting... ALWAYS.
)

This is why we are friends.

[Apps]

eh, changed my mind. This is a funny thread.

[Catamer]

I find the other players just stupid as well. Every time I solo with others I find the teams incredibly weak. I choose my boxing team with great care and everyone complements everyone else from buffs to heals to DPS. I find for just about any game I multibox I am 10x much more powerful just playing with myself than with others. in CoH I play all +4/8 ( the hardest settings possible ) all the time, just to make it interesting. I don't mind helping others if they ask for it, but I rarely go looking. I have a small group of players that don't mind playing with a multiboxer and if they are on they usually join me.

[MiRai]

I'll reply again since I'm not doing anything right this moment. There also seem to be a lot lists in this thread so I'll join in on the fun.

Let's start off with an example:

Why is there a such thing as a "bad neighborhood" where someone might live? I'd wager everything I own that not everyone who lives in the "bad neighborhood" is actually bad. However, if someone was coming out of the "bad neighborhood," most people would label that person as a bad person, regardless of whoever they really are.
Tell me the above text (especially the text in bold) is incorrect.
Tell me that the general (gaming) population will not pre-judge someone because they don't have the same play style.
Tell me that you've never made a generalization about anyone, or anything, in your life.

You can't come in here and pretend that you're a saint and say that others shouldn't judge others or tell them how to play (which I don't see anyone telling anyone else how to play) because you have never judged anyone ever and you would never do that.

You'd be lying.

There are also a lot of "I" statements in this thread where people think they have a real identity among the masses in the video game world. You don't. You might have some sort of identity on your realm because people might know who you are, but other than that, you're a multiboxer. You're a multiboxer, just like I'm a multiboxer, and just like he's a multiboxer. We're all multiboxers and we're labeled as so, by the general population, while we're multiboxing.

I don't care how you might personally view multiboxing because you're already a multiboxer.
I don't care that you believe people should not be judged by their play style because that's obviously not the way the (gaming) world works.
I don't care if you feel entitled to whatever you want just because you can -- Thinking that "I pay money for this, so I can do what I want" is the type of thinking which is why we can't have nice things.

(Quoted Before It Was Withdrawn)

I find it hypocritical for individuals to put up the same examples to quantify multiboxing, and then turn around and again use the same example to try to control it.
I.e. "..multiboxing is the same as several individuals working together in a group situation, you're not expecting to kill 5 players are you?" then say, its not fair to the community of boxers if some users do this, because it makes "me" look bad.When someone rages on five players, they're raging on five players. When someone rages on someone else who is multiboxing, they're raging about a multiboxer. Also, if those five individual players come from the same guild, then that guild is now labeled, no?

How are these the same?

Let's break this down visually (as best I can with text).

Example 1

Five players from different guilds camp one player:


Warrior (Tom)
Mage (Mike)
Mage (Jerry)
Priest (Mila - My sexy lady)
Druid (George)

Result:
"What a bunch of douche bags! Why don't they go find something else to do with their time?"

Example 2


Five players from the same guild camp one player:


Warrior (Tom)
Mage (Mike)
Mage (Jerry)
Priest (Mila - My sexy lady)
Druid (George)

Result:
"F'ing <insert guild name>! They're all just a bunch of douchebags! Why don't they go find something else to do with their time?"

A guild of 100 people is now labeled by this one person as douchebags because of five individual players' actions.

Example 3


A single multiboxer who is multiboxing five characters camps one player:


Warrior (Tom)
Mage (Tom)
Mage (Tom)
Priest (Tom)
Druid (Tom)

Result:
"F'ing multiboxers! They're all just a bunch of cheating douchebags! Why doesn't this guy go find something else to do with his time?"

All multiboxers are now labeled by this one person as douchebags because of one multiboxer's actions.

These are crude examples (for everyone, not just Apps), Don't jump on me with a herp derp statement saying that "PvP happens." This is a general example of how the general mass of players are going to interpret a multiboxer's actions.

[candlebox]

@Mirai...that was a fun read, and exactly what I am saying.

+1000

[Apps]

Awe! Fen...I thought I pulled that statemented post back fast enough. Damn! lol.

Ok. Just two comments tho.

1. Are we saying that a multiboxer *CANT* or is *not allowed* to be a douche or a dick from time to time because of how it reflects on others? I.e. some code of ethics which needs to be signed when purchasing a wow account or boxing software?

2. There may also be a general suggestion that a person of complaint, in the examples above, is uneducated and ignorant, citing "cheating" when in fact no rules have been broken what so ever...just sayin. :)

I (Apps) refrain publicly judging anyone, since being in that hot seat myself before. But I do contend that if there is a group of individuals, and one (all be it not breaking any rules), his actions are not (by opinion), approved by another group member... well then, there is nothing saying the person who feels offended, HAS to stay in the group at all. Free will and all. Now I know some people may not agree with me. That's fine. Disagreeing with me doesn't make me any less steadfast in my own opinion or beliefs.

**Also, I should note: I do not, and am not, condoning any douchbaggery behavior, nor encouraging boxers and non-boxers alike from doing the like.. nor am I defending anyone of saying or doing such within this thread. Merely only posting my own opinion, as that is the only one that I can control.

[MiRai]

1. Are we saying that a multiboxer *CANT* or is *not allowed* to be a douche or a dick from time to time because of how it reflects on others? I.e. some code of ethics which needs to be signed when purchasing a wow account or boxing software?
Anyone can play however they want to, but it would be ignorant to think that they're not affecting someone, or something, else through their actions, whether positive or negative. Most people tolerate multiboxing because it doesn't affect them negatively, but wouldn't bat an eye if it faded away. If multiboxing does end up affecting them negatively, and continues to affect them in this fashion, they're more likely to push for the removal of it rather than just sit idle.

As a multiboxer, you are an ambassador for all other multiboxers out there in whatever game you play whether you believe so or not; so know when to ease up on the douchebag pedal when you're dealing with other gamers out there. (I know that's deep)

[valkry]

This is why we are friends.
I've noticed you have started playing a lot again, we gotta do some stuff together :P

[kate]

I'll reply again since I'm not doing anything right this moment. There also seem to be a lot lists in this thread so I'll join in on the fun.

Tell me that the general (gaming) population will not pre-judge someone because they don't have the same play style.
Tell me that you've never made a generalization about anyone, or anything, in your life.

You can't come in here and pretend that you're a saint and say that others shouldn't judge others or tell them how to play (which I don't see anyone telling anyone else how to play) because you have never judged anyone ever and you would never do that.

You'd be lying.


Well it's a good thing nobody said that in this thread, or anything like that!

This, by the way, is exactly what I'm getting at: MiRai is clearly arguing with someone else, not me and not Apps because neither of us have said what he seems to be thinking we've said. How can I have a discussion with someone who isn't willing to read *my* words and respond to them without completely distorting them into something that isn't even remotely close to what I said? How can I respond to criticisms of arguments I never made and that nobody else has made?

I can't, so I won't. MiRai, congratulations - you have demonstrated the validity of my main points far more convincingly with your responses to me than I ever could have. Your complete dedication to totally ignoring what I actually said and instead responding to what you would like to imagine I said shows exactly how pointless it is for me to try to change the behavior of people who are unwilling to take in new information and consider it.

You stick to your guns and shine on, you crazy diamond!

[Sajuuk]

Well it's a good thing nobody said that in this thread, or anything like that!

This, by the way, is exactly what I'm getting at: MiRai is clearly arguing with someone else, not me and not Apps because neither of us have said what he seems to be thinking we've said. How can I have a discussion with someone who isn't willing to read *my* words and respond to them without completely distorting them into something that isn't even remotely close to what I said? How can I respond to criticisms of arguments I never made and that nobody else has made?

I can't, so I won't. MiRai, congratulations - you have demonstrated the validity of my main points far more convincingly with your responses to me than I ever could have. Your complete dedication to totally ignoring what I actually said and instead responding to what you would like to imagine I said shows exactly how pointless it is for me to try to change the behavior of people who are unwilling to take in new information and consider it.

You stick to your guns and shine on, you crazy diamond!
tl;dr.

That's how.

[valkry]

tl;dr.

That's how.
<<--- wow forums are that way champ, keep the troll posts there.

[Fat Tire]

wow all this side stepping around,trying to be all pc...


You sad fucks that just box AV/IoC are pathetic. I dominated AV! how fucking sad are some people, even in boxing terms that is sad. Seriously there is no point to it, but to piss the general population off.

Its what other boxers from your community are trying to telling you.

[Homer]

wow all this side stepping around,trying to be all pc...


You sad fucks that just box AV/IoC are pathetic. I dominated AV! how fucking sad are some people, even in boxing terms that is sad. Seriously there is no point to it, but to piss the general population off.

Its what other boxers from your community are trying to telling you.

Opinions vary maybe some people enjoy playing AV over and over. Its there money. Once again I stick to my notion be civil if you have the option but do what ever you would do as a single boxer.

[zenga]

wow all this side stepping around,trying to be all pc...


You sad fucks that just box AV/IoC are pathetic. I dominated AV! how fucking sad are some people, even in boxing terms that is sad. Seriously there is no point to it, but to piss the general population off.

Its what other boxers from your community are trying to telling you.

the spirit of fursphere continuous ...

[SaraiE]

Funny post!
This reminds me of a cartoon from the "Far Side."
In a lab, "God" stands holding a shaker labelled "Jerks" and he is sprinkling that shaker onto "Earth" that is on his table. The caption says: Just to spice things up!

Seriously, do what you like, it is only a game. It doesn't matter what you do, ragers and whiners will rage and whine! The solo boxing population is >>>>>> than the MB population, in numbers ($$ and players). If Blizz wishes to kill MB, they would have done it. THe $75/month MB is really insignificant when you look at the general solo population.

I forgot where I read this, but this stands: If it is RED, it is DEAD! PVE is that way!!!!

SaraiE

[valkry]

wow all this side stepping around,trying to be all pc...


You sad fucks that just box AV/IoC are pathetic. I dominated AV! how fucking sad are some people, even in boxing terms that is sad. Seriously there is no point to it, but to piss the general population off.

Its what other boxers from your community are trying to telling you.
You could have just said "I'm more leet than you nubs" instead of 3 whole lines...

[MiRai]

This thread has run its course.