Have Group Will Travel: Keep it?

[Fogyreef]

I personally love Have Group Will Travel (HGWT), enough to write some substantial posts in the WoW forums, capping one thread and spawning others. One got deleted that politely, but accurately called out Tom Chilton on his, well, you can read about it below.

The debate rages, yet few have the insight to see the realities underlying the controversial removal of one of the most popular guild perks.

The links below are pulled from the WoW forums and detail why Tom Chilton's "reasons" for removing HGWT are not only demonstrably flawed logic, but the antithesis of what Blizzard is trying to accomplish. I'm trying, selfishly yet still correctly, to save the perk wrongly accused causing what it actually mitigates. It's the guild perk version of "The Fugitive".

Please read the posts I linked, view the poll, try out the thought experiments and if you see what I see, please support the threads before it's too late and we lose HGWT to a knee jerk reaction to their self-created endothermic world bloat.

In addition to the outcry from the regular players in support of HGWT, as a multiboxers this topic seems especially important to us since HGWT means such uber convenience.

The Poll: (vote No if you want to keep HGWT)
http://poll.pollcode.com/9sl

This link points to the salvaged deleted post that once spoke Tom Chilton's name. It speaks directly to the quote attributed to Tom and how he gets it wrong:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...7543?page=4#74 (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5150107543?page=4#74)

This is the continuation of a my capped thread where you can find the pro's have the substantive debate advantage and the cons are reactionary and dismissive. I'm not biased, nooooooo. But srsly, it's ad hominems agaist the demonstrable good HGWT does for the community.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...0107543?page=1 (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5150107543?page=1)

Here, as an extension, are some ideas that directly speak to the issue Blizz is blaming HGWT for. Got any of your own?
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5149618992?page=1#0


The Fugitive needs you.

Save HGWT. Eat dead content.

[Lyonheart]

good stuff! i voted and posted 8) keep it!

[ebony]

its going its gone blizzard has made there mind up its overpowered. Nothing is going to bring it back now :D (really hope they do not)

I love it and hate it at the same time. I can see Engi having some summon store. like warlocks do.

[MiRai]

The links below are pulled from the WoW forums and detail why Tom Chilton's "reasons" for removing HGWT are not only demonstrably flawed logic, but the antithesis of what Blizzard is trying to accomplish.
I'm going to guess that Tom Chilton's public "reasons" were fluff to hide another reason why it's going away. Probably something along the lines of exploitation...

Just a wild guess. ;)

[JohnGabriel]

I've yet to get my guild high enough level to learn HGWT. Lost it before I could use it.

[Acidburning]

what am I supposed to do with all my "AcidportXXX" level 1 toons now?

[Ualaa]

Remake them as Warlocks...
And level them up a little.

[Fogyreef]

Remake them as Warlocks...
And level them up a little.

But then you'd need three toons at each spot, and you'd always need a warlock up. No bueno. Just keep HGWT and fix the real problem, lack of compelling content.

[JohnGabriel]

I dont really see anything wrong with using hgwt even if it seemed to be abused. People hate all the traveling, players unable to find their way back from the graveyard, etc.

They could have just made it for guildies only instead of getting rid of it completely. Or require 2 people summoning to use it, making it just like a stone.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2267584665#10

What about this? Or did they fix it, reintroduce it and then nerf it again?

[JohnGabriel]

I love how these exploits, not just in this game but any game or even real life, can never be kept secret. Its like an ego thing, if you found a way to exploit a feature, you'd just HAVE to tell someone.

But of course you HAVE to keep it a secret if I tell you.

[Svpernova09]

Remove HGWT.
Remove Flying Mounts.
Nerf City/Town Guards.
Restore Locks Using Soul Shards to summon.

Put the war back in warcraft.

[Mercurio]

Loosing HGWT is absolutely horrible. I use it for everything I do in the game. As a ten boxer, I even use it after finishing an LFR and teleporting to the gear vendor then transmog guy in SW. It is just so unbelievably convienient when going on transmog runs and getting to the Dragonsoul entrance to solo or duo raid.

I took a couple months off playing and was about to resub when I saw they were taking HGWT away. This honestly delayed my resubbing for two weeks because I was so disappointed. I am constantly summoning from place to place while playing and this would add about 15% to my play time to simply AFK while getting everywhere. Or make me not go anywhere because it takes too darn long.

An example: Still want a shot at the 12% drop rate mace in Eye of Eternity for one of my priest's xmog sets? Now it takes me about 2 mins from wanting to do it to being in. Without HGWT it would take about eleven minutes, which is three times longer than it takes me to kill Malygos once I get there. For a 12% shot at a drop? I've got better RL things to do than waste that much travel time in game.

[Khatovar]

Man, I must really be missing out. My guild is only level 14 so I don't have that perk. Does the game get awesome from it?

[Fogyreef]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2267584665#10

What about this? Or did they fix it, reintroduce it and then nerf it again?

For all the discussion on the forums no one has brought up any exploit issues since they fixed HGWT last year. Just that it makes people lazy. 'cause, you know, being mass summoned to a raid is lazy, but being summoned one at a time is fine.


Loosing HGWT is absolutely horrible. I use it for everything I do in the game. As a ten boxer, I even use it after finishing an LFR and teleporting to the gear vendor then transmog guy in SW. It is just so unbelievably convienient when going on transmog runs and getting to the Dragonsoul entrance to solo or duo raid.

I took a couple months off playing and was about to resub when I saw they were taking HGWT away. This honestly delayed my resubbing for two weeks because I was so disappointed. I am constantly summoning from place to place while playing and this would add about 15% to my play time to simply AFK while getting everywhere. Or make me not go anywhere because it takes too darn long.

An example: Still want a shot at the 12% drop rate mace in Eye of Eternity for one of my priest's xmog sets? Now it takes me about 2 mins from wanting to do it to being in. Without HGWT it would take about eleven minutes, which is three times longer than it takes me to kill Malygos once I get there. For a 12% shot at a drop? I've got better RL things to do than waste that much travel time in game.

This. You should post this to the WoW forum.

[MiRai]

Loosing HGWT is absolutely horrible. I use it for everything I do in the game. As a ten boxer, I even use it after finishing an LFR and teleporting to the gear vendor then transmog guy in SW. It is just so unbelievably convienient when going on transmog runs and getting to the Dragonsoul entrance to solo or duo raid.

I took a couple months off playing and was about to resub when I saw they were taking HGWT away. This honestly delayed my resubbing for two weeks because I was so disappointed. I am constantly summoning from place to place while playing and this would add about 15% to my play time to simply AFK while getting everywhere. Or make me not go anywhere because it takes too darn long.

An example: Still want a shot at the 12% drop rate mace in Eye of Eternity for one of my priest's xmog sets? Now it takes me about 2 mins from wanting to do it to being in. Without HGWT it would take about eleven minutes, which is three times longer than it takes me to kill Malygos once I get there. For a 12% shot at a drop? I've got better RL things to do than waste that much travel time in game.

This. You should post this to the WoW forum.
I think he would get trolled right off of the forums for saying 11 minutes is too much time to travel somewhere in the vast open world of Azeroth.

[Fogyreef]

Man, I must really be missing out. My guild is only level 14 so I don't have that perk. Does the game get awesome from it?

We use it every raid. We use it to summon just for the convenience, but more so we use it at the various places in raid that we're allowed for people to jump out, gem up new gear and jump back in without having to run to the summoning stone and back. Or when we take a break. It's just something that gives us options. If it wasn't a positive experience we wouldn't use it.

But my personal reasons are for what Mercurio stated. I've played for five years now. I'm over flying if I can avoid it. Especially when multiboxing. I also enjoy having toons located around the world for summoning. Get that? Enjoy. It does a body good.

As a GM I use it to help lower levels anywhere at any time. They can only use it once every two hours, but I can help anyone who asks, over and over, without spending 5-10 min of down time flying. People wanting it removed usually just call that lazy, but try holding your breath for five minutes, or wait for your five minute cooldowns and tell me it doesn't feel like forever.

The ratio of why to keep it to why remove it is heavily skewed towards keeping it.


I think he would get trolled right off of the forums for saying 11 minutes is too much time to travel somewhere in the vast open world of Azeroth.

Yup, that's their "argument", lazy. Together with my reply above, I'd add that everyone who ever took a portal when you can fly and still uses that argument can STFU. Once they fire off that cheap shot, though, they're out of ammo. Lazy is by far the #1 retort, so, other than a difference in opinion and play style, why again are they removing it?

[MiRai]

Yup, that's their "argument", lazy. Together with my reply above, I'd add that everyone who ever took a portal when you can fly and still uses that argument can STFU. Once they fire off that cheap shot, though, they're out of ammo. Lazy is by far the #1 retort, so, other than a difference in opinion and play style, why again are they removing it?
I think you're drawing the line for lazy in the wrong spot and I think you're getting angry that other people are calling you (and everyone else who wants to keep HGWT) lazy for saying your daily routine depends on it.

Where Mercurio says that 11 minutes for a trip to EoE is too long, I think that 11 minutes for a trip to EoE isn't too long. You say that walking back to the summoning stone when you're in the middle of an instance (and don't have a Warlock) to summon a replacement for your raid is a complete hindrance, whereas, it's something I've had to do for years and just go along with it because I don't see it as that big of a deal. So who's right in this situation?

I think Blizzard has spoiled its playerbase for so long that when something of such little value is taken away and people might have to take 5 - 10 extra minutes to do something, they're now threatening to quit the game. If people want to quit over losing HGWT, so be it.

[Fogyreef]

I think you're drawing the line for lazy in the wrong spot and I think you're getting angry that other people are calling you (and everyone else who wants to keep HGWT) lazy for saying your daily routine depends on it.

Where Mercurio says that 11 minutes for a trip to EoE is too long, I think that 11 minutes for a trip to EoE isn't too long. You say that walking back to the summoning stone when you're in the middle of an instance (and don't have a Warlock) to summon a replacement for your raid is a complete hindrance, whereas, it's something I've had to do for years and just go along with it because I don't see it as that big of a deal. So who's right in this situation?

I think Blizzard has spoiled its playerbase for so long that when something of such little value is taken away and people might have to take 5 - 10 extra minutes to do something, they're now threatening to quit the game. If people want to quit over losing HGWT, so be it.

Whereas I agree if someone wishes to quit over it, please do, I'm unaware of anyone saying they'll unsub because they'll lose HGWT. That's a bit outside the scope of reactions. As is "depending" on it. We won't falter because it's gone, but what's wrong with being efficient with our time? I run shorter two hour raids structured around the work schedule and casual nature of my guild. We all appreciate not wasting time. As a boxer I love the efficiency of RR'ing my guys into town and back to train, etc.

Some people RP by walking everywhere. Not run-walking, but walk-walking. Everyone has their own way of playing. I, too, had to walk until 40 before I could get a mount. I've done the grind. I'm just busy, and I find utility in the perk. Losing HGWT is not a complete hindrance at all. But neither is keeping it. I don't see it as whoever is right should get their way vis a vis killing or keeping HGWT. It's more like if you don't like pickles don't eat them, but please allow me to eat mine. Those against HGWT want to kill it when it doesn't affect their game play, and that's not right, imo.

I agree Blizz has coddled to the playerbase. Mounts at 20 when 20 is the new 10. C'mon. And I agree that life will resume if they remove HGWT. There's just no reason to remove it.

[Vecter]

Man, I must really be missing out. My guild is only level 14 so I don't have that perk. Does the game get awesome from it?

1000 internets and gold stars to you.

Complaining about having to travel in an open world MMO, is this what wow has come down to? Perhaps a break is in order.

[Crum1515]

Upon logging in a list will be presented to you, and you select the raid boss you wish to kill, place you want to go, or feature you would like to change and after a brief 14 second cooldown you shall have your wish.

There will be vending machines in all instances, that disperse food and drink.

No more will pvp be a problem, all factions are one faction.

All horses are now ponies.

NPC's will now greet you nude and with 7 layer nachos.

I think that color of the stairs in deepholm are too blue.

Goblins have too long of ears.

[MiRai]

Whereas I agree if someone wishes to quit over it, please do, I'm unaware of anyone saying they'll unsub because they'll lose HGWT. That's a bit outside the scope of reactions. As is "depending" on it. We won't falter because it's gone, but what's wrong with being efficient with our time? I run shorter two hour raids structured around the work schedule and casual nature of my guild. We all appreciate not wasting time. As a boxer I love the efficiency of RR'ing my guys into town and back to train, etc.

Some people RP by walking everywhere. Not run-walking, but walk-walking. Everyone has their own way of playing. I, too, had to walk until 40 before I could get a mount. I've done the grind. I'm just busy, and I find utility in the perk. Losing HGWT is not a complete hindrance at all. But neither is keeping it. I don't see it as whoever is right should get their way vis a vis killing or keeping HGWT. It's more like if you don't like pickles don't eat them, but please allow me to eat mine. Those against HGWT want to kill it when it doesn't affect their game play, and that's not right, imo.

I agree Blizz has coddled to the playerbase. Mounts at 20 when 20 is the new 10. C'mon. And I agree that life will resume if they remove HGWT. There's just no reason to remove it.
Fair enough. Maybe because I'm part of an old school mentality from having played the game since day 1, that there's nothing Blizzard could possibly take away from me that would make me angry because 1) it's just a game, and 2) in Vanilla we had to walk to school in seventeen inches of snow uphill both ways and it can't get any worse than that.

[Fogyreef]

1000 internets and gold stars to you.

Complaining about having to travel in an open world MMO, is this what wow has come down to? Perhaps a break is in order.

Did you train flying? Take a portal? Get summoned? We all take shortcuts.

Sometimes playing in an social MMO isn't just about the player. Some people may not be accustomed to helping new players frequently, but as GM with HGWT I have the ability to help anyone anywhere at a moment's notice. To me that's valuable. I certainly don't have time to drop what I'm doing, fly to a zep, wait, fly to the spot, help out, fly/zep/fly all the way back and do it again for the next person. HGWT is the difference between 12 seconds of travel time or 20-minutes, depending on where they are. And that's just helping one person. Any player can personally only use it once per session, but I can be summoned many times. So, yeah, it saves a chunk of time. Between GM'ing for 400 toons, three-four raid nights, running four local WoW Meetup groups, learning ISBoxer, actually multiboxing, fitting in D&D, D3, Mass Effect, getting a degree, work, wife and life, yes - I do appreciate saving time.


Fair enough. Maybe because I'm part of an old school mentality from having played the game since day 1, that there's nothing Blizzard could possibly take away from me that would make me angry because 1) it's just a game, and 2) in Vanilla we had to walk to school in seventeen inches of snow uphill both ways and it can't get any worse than that.

Heh. Back in the good ol' days C'Thun was literally unkillable. Kids have it so easy now.

[valkry]

^Didn't have to start worrying about c'thun until after you worried about twins & c'thun trash!!

1. Someone please help me, x mob is too hard
1. Yea, sure, I'll come help you with that mob, just summon me over

OR

"fuck that, would have to fly all the way over there, and then all the way back"
1. sorry mate, bit busy at the moment

[Peli]

Remove HGWT.
Remove Flying Mounts.
Nerf City/Town Guards.
Restore Locks Using Soul Shards to summon.

Put the war back in warcraft.

Can't help but agree with you whole-heartedly, Supernova.

I want my epic Tarren Mill/Southshore battles back. Hell, TB isn't even all that exciting anymore on my home server. I run across maybe 2 hordies my entire time there.

[Fogyreef]

Besides, what's wrong with fast?

631
http://www.tadaocern.com/gallery_blowjob.html

[MiRai]

^Didn't have to start worrying about c'thun until after you worried about twins & c'thun trash!!

1. Someone please help me, x mob is too hard
1. Yea, sure, I'll come help you with that mob, just summon me over

OR

"fuck that, would have to fly all the way over there, and then all the way back"
1. sorry mate, bit busy at the moment
I think you're reinforcing Blizzard's stance on why they're removing HGWT.

[Fogyreef]

I think you're reinforcing Blizzard's stance on why they're removing HGWT.


I guarantee, though, with human nature being as it is, removing HGWT would decrease instances where the help is received, not increase it, both in terms of people not wanting to impose on others and not wanting to be imposed upon. HGWT facilitates drawing people out of cities and into content, if only for a quick trip that might not otherwise happen.

[MiRai]

Did you train flying? Take a portal? Get summoned? We all take shortcuts.
I'm not sure how people who take a Mage portal or take a Warlock summon are in the same boat as a free raid-wide summon. Again, there's a line and you're being pretty extreme with it. Portals and Warlock summons have been in the game since day 1 and summoning stones weren't too far after that. Portals require a Mage, being summoned requires a Warlock, using HGWT requires you to be in a... level 25 guild.


Between GM'ing for 400 toons, three-four raid nights, running four local WoW Meetup groups, learning ISBoxer, actually multiboxing, fitting in D&D, D3, Mass Effect, getting a degree, work, wife and life, yes - I do appreciate saving time.
It sounds like you have a little too much on your plate. I currently took this last semester off from school and I wouldn't want my daily routine to include more than half of those things you listed. Just because you have 10 or 15 free minutes doesn't mean you have to jam one more thing to do into your schedule. Take a break... relax.

[Crum1515]

Why stop with just having HGWT. Lets put in a drop down menu with all your friends and all locations and a box to put in exact coordinates so you can teleport anywhere instantly.

[MiRai]

I guarantee, though, with human nature being as it is,
Definition of lazy. ;)

[Fogyreef]

I'm not sure how people who take a Mage portal or take a Warlock summon are in the same boat as a free raid-wide summon. Again, there's a line and you're being pretty extreme with it.
Portals and Warlock summons have been in the game since day 1 and summoning stones weren't too far after that. Portals require a Mage, being summoned requires a Warlock, using HGWT requires you to be in a... level 25 guild.

Not sure I follow. Is it the ease with which everyone acquires world-wide summoning ability (the whole point of perks was to encourage guild stability, now people are bitching about them), or is it that it's competing with race abilities?

To the extent I'm being extreme, I think the nature of the similarity to summoning stones, LFG-tech and Warlock/Mage abilities in the context of raid summoning is indeed a fine hair to split, which goes to my question why remove HGWT at all? What great leap, in the context of raid summoning, has been made to the detriment of the game by HGWT? All other uses aside.



It sounds like you have a little too much on your plate. I currently took this last semester off from school and I wouldn't want my daily routine to include more than half of those things you listed. Just because you have 10 or 15 free minutes doesn't mean you have to jam one more thing to do into your schedule. Take a break... relax.

Already took a winter break. No-can-do again. Let me have my pickle! :p


Definition of lazy. ;)

Srsly :)

[Fogyreef]

Anywho, the main point I had about HGWT was that those who don't like it aren't personally affected by it, and that Blizz's reason for removing it, HGWT helped people "avoid" getting into the field, is demonstrably false. So I argue to keep it.

[Apps]

Remove HGWT.
Remove Flying Mounts.
Nerf City/Town Guards.
Restore Locks Using Soul Shards to summon.

Put the war back in warcraft.


All this.

Two main comments from my opinion. (Because its my opinion and I will have one.)

1. WoW sucks now. I dislike how impersonal the game has become. LFG sucks. LF anything really. I RARELY play with people from my server in BGs or random groups. No one really needs to talk to each other in a common chat. Just get in a guild, level up, auto port lazy people, instant gratification boo hoo'ers. And Trade has turned into a troll contest or [Anal] bullshit. MMO my ass. Sure there are others logged into the same game, even same server... I'll be damned if I know anyone other than my guildies.

2. WoW is the only game on the market currently, that has my attention. I miss the old WoW. Sure it was unfair at times. But we still had fun. When was the last time you (figuratively speaking to anyone), were in an all out PVP battle in the Hinterlands... scratch that. When was the last time you were IN the hinterlands? Anyone remember the battles outside of Kara? or Molten Core? Ya got to admit that was fun. There's a distinct reason why so many people write things like "I miss the old WoW"

If Blizzard were to continue the instant gratification trend... with enough time, eventually, you'll be able to go to the blizzard store online, and just buy your epics.

HGWT... yet another mistake, fortunately being rectified.

[Fogyreef]

All this.

Two main comments from my opinion. (Because its my opinion and I will have one.)

1. WoW sucks now. I dislike how impersonal the game has become. LFG sucks. LF anything really. I RARELY play with people from my server in BGs or random groups. No one really needs to talk to each other in a common chat. Just get in a guild, level up, auto port lazy people, instant gratification boo hoo'ers. And Trade has turned into a troll contest or [Anal] bullshit. MMO my ass. Sure there are others logged into the same game, even same server... I'll be damned if I know anyone other than my guildies.

2. WoW is the only game on the market currently, that has my attention. I miss the old WoW. Sure it was unfair at times. But we still had fun. When was the last time you (figuratively speaking to anyone), were in an all out PVP battle in the Hinterlands... scratch that. When was the last time you were IN the hinterlands? Anyone remember the battles outside of Kara? or Molten Core? Ya got to admit that was fun. There's a distinct reason why so many people write things like "I miss the old WoW"

If Blizzard were to continue the instant gratification trend... with enough time, eventually, you'll be able to go to the blizzard store online, and just buy your epics.

HGWT... yet another mistake, fortunately being rectified.




Been there, done that, too. Good times. Thanks for your opinion.

Though, it would seem that the ability to port directly to a world pvp action would add to world pvp, and that all other points you brought up aren't about HGWT. An ability to form a group seems the antithesis to what you're upset about. Is HGWT really responsible for social decline? I'd argue that LFWhatever is the culprit, cheapening the grouping experience.

I get your point about coddling to new players. Limiting the conversation to HGWT, it should be turned off until you've explored the area (Though this hurts RP'ers who pick various spots to bring low level toons to RP with (ew?)). Other than that, facilitating grouping seems to be a good thing. Further, the problem is not the speed with which you can get to a location, it's the location. WoW is endothermic, in that the volume of real estate keeps growing but both the amount of people and then the amount of those people in lower level content remains steady or is in decline. Like maggots in a corpse they consume content and then move on with no reason to return. When they turn into flies and zip all around the corpse, are they lazy?

Aren't analogies fun?

[HPAVC]

It was cool and really over powered. Not as much as all the portals in various cities they got rid of for the same reason. So I guess they weren't meant to be.

If every city had a summoning stone in the inn I would be happy, then I could do the hearths in all the major cities on all 5 characters and keep it going for jumping around the world in reasonable time.

The shitty focus on keeping people in the same damn city is annoying, especially with the skill/class trainers now in dal and shatt (so tightly clustered as well with the vendors), so much better than the capitals and the major cities (what a joke silvermoon is for example for trainers)

[Mercurio]

I have really nice trasmog sets on my many toons. Seeing all the old content, much of which I hadn't seen before, and working to get all the needed drops was a blast. But in order to do that, I had to run lots of instances. With sets of ten toons that are ilvl 388 or so, I can blow through the instances pretty quickly. So a typical xmog evening for me will be to do a wing of Naxx, Eye of Eternity, Hellfire Ramparts, Botanica, Tempest Keep, Ruins of AQ, Sethek Halls, Onyxia, and Slave Pens. Eleven minutes to get to Eye of Eternity may not be too bad, but without a level one alt at each of these instance entrances to summon with, I would be spending literally HOURS instead of minutes getting from place to place. I honestly think I could only do a third as much in the same amount of time without HGWT.

Heck, I'm efficient enough (or maybe that is lazy enough) to always have a hunter in every group because I can use Aspect of the Pack to cut time off the runs.

There is NO WAY I would have done this without HGWT and endured all the mind-numbing travel time I would have wasted instead of spending my time actually playing the game.

I understand that I may be in a rather unique situation, but losing HGWT will radically alter that genuinely fun part of the game for me, and I am disappointed about that.

[Svpernova09]

I have really nice trasmog sets on my many toons. Seeing all the old content, much of which I hadn't seen before, and working to get all the needed drops was a blast. But in order to do that, I had to run lots of instances. With sets of ten toons that are ilvl 388 or so, I can blow through the instances pretty quickly. So a typical xmog evening for me will be to do a wing of Naxx, Eye of Eternity, Hellfire Ramparts, Botanica, Tempest Keep, Ruins of AQ, Sethek Halls, Onyxia, and Slave Pens. Eleven minutes to get to Eye of Eternity may not be too bad, but without a level one alt at each of these instance entrances to summon with, I would be spending literally HOURS instead of minutes getting from place to place. I honestly think I could only do a third as much in the same amount of time without HGWT.

Heck, I'm efficient enough (or maybe that is lazy enough) to always have a hunter in every group because I can use Aspect of the Pack to cut time off the runs.

There is NO WAY I would have done this without HGWT and endured all the mind-numbing travel time I would have wasted instead of spending my time actually playing the game.

I understand that I may be in a rather unique situation, but losing HGWT will radically alter that genuinely fun part of the game for me, and I am disappointed about that.

/thread

[Zub]

You all realize that there is NO right or wrong answer to "should HGWT remain", right?
It's a question of perception, game experience, and habit mostly.

Everyone will have a different place where they draw the line of "what is too much", teleports, summoning stones, HGWT, insta-port to boss etc.. nobody is right or wrong, and every one has their opinion.
That obvously includes Blizzard, and THEY are the ones to draw the line for us all. Someone has to do it after all.

[Fogyreef]

You all realize that there is NO right or wrong answer to "should HGWT remain", right?
It's a question of perception, game experience, and habit mostly.

Everyone will have a different place where they draw the line of "what is too much", teleports, summoning stones, HGWT, insta-port to boss etc.. nobody is right or wrong, and every one has their opinion.
That obvously includes Blizzard, and THEY are the ones to draw the line for us all. Someone has to do it after all.


Wise words, Zub. I want it left in so I can continue to use it as a not-lazy-but-busy GM and as a multiboxer. I'll continue to raise awareness for my side on the WoW forums and hope that Blizz is more interested in fact than perception. I.e. - Their stated reason for removing it is it helps people avoid being out in the world, when it facilitates it. They have been known to be reasonable with enough back pressure. I can only try.

I've said my piece. Thanks all for the debate. I like me good debates.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

If they were really interested in people enjoying each others' company, they'd open up LFG to all instances at all levels. That they have not done this kinda tells me where their focus isn't.

[Khatovar]

If they were really interested in people enjoying each others' company, they'd open up LFG to all instances at all levels. That they have not done this kinda tells me where their focus isn't.

WTB EQ2-style mentoring in WoW PLS!

[MiRai]

You all realize that there is NO right or wrong answer to "should HGWT remain", right?
It's a question of perception, game experience, and habit mostly.

Everyone will have a different place where they draw the line of "what is too much", teleports, summoning stones, HGWT, insta-port to boss etc.. nobody is right or wrong, and every one has their opinion.
That obvously includes Blizzard, and THEY are the ones to draw the line for us all. Someone has to do it after all.
Pretty sure I said something along these lines on page 2.


Wise words, Zub. I want it left in so I can continue to use it as a not-lazy-but-busy GM and as a multiboxer. I'll continue to raise awareness for my side on the WoW forums and hope that Blizz is more interested in fact than perception. I.e. - Their stated reason for removing it is it helps people avoid being out in the world, when it facilitates it. They have been known to be reasonable with enough back pressure. I can only try.

I've said my piece. Thanks all for the debate. I like me good debates.
I think the problem people are having with your argument is that you are forcing it upon people as a fact, as you just stated. When you have no statistics, no pie charts, no bar graphs, or no evidence what-so-ever besides the opinions of the people that would like it kept in the game. When on the other hand, you've got just as many people, if not more (in this thread), saying that they rarely use or don't use it at all completely negating the fact that what you're stating as a fact, isn't really a fact at all.

For the record, I'm just playing devil's advocate and I don't care whether the guild perk stays or goes. I really think there are too many people that are bent out of shape about the wrong things. In my opinion, there are other things in this game that could use attention and the mob-like playerbase could easily bring such changes; but, they're too worried about losing things HGWT, how much Pandas will ruin WoW, whether they can Transmog their Legendary weapons, and things of that sort to pay any attention.

This Louis CK skit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpUNA2nutbk) reminds of me of WoW's playerbase overall (and most of the world as it is). This isn't focused at anyone here, but I find it funny and figured that I would share.

[Apps]

Though, it would seem that the ability to port directly to a world pvp action would add to world pvp, and that all other points you brought up aren't about HGWT. An ability to form a group seems the antithesis to what you're upset about. Is HGWT really responsible for social decline? I'd argue that LFWhatever is the culprit, cheapening the grouping experience.



I gotcha.

I may have left that a bit misunderstood. My two comments from my original post werent meant as evidence or proof or whatever, regarding the topic... I ended that part with the "All This" quote from Svper. My comments were more guided about how lazy the majority of the wow players are today, as seen by my own observations, and examples given in that post.

I *would* chalk HGWT right up there with overuse of lazy. I dont believe there is a fundamental standpoint to claim its beneficial when it was only recently added, suggesting parts of the game were indeed, fully accessible before the quick shortcut was added.

[Fogyreef]

Pretty sure I said something along these lines on page 2.

Wise words to you, too, MiRai. :o



I think the problem people are having with your argument is that you are forcing it upon people as a fact, as you just stated. When you have no statistics, no pie charts, no bar graphs, or no evidence what-so-ever besides the opinions of the people that would like it kept in the game. When on the other hand, you've got just as many people, if not more (in this thread), saying that they rarely use or don't use it at all completely negating the fact that what you're stating as a fact, isn't really a fact at all.

While I don't have usage statistics, I do have the mechanics of how it works (and the non-scientific poll (http://poll.pollcode.com/9sl)), and them's the facts I'm referring to:

From this thread: (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5271779171?page=1)


[QUOTE]From an interview with Tom Chilton at the 4:00 minute mark: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KJDi622X1U) The Have Group, Will Travel was popular because it is one more thing that shrinks the world (True) and allows players to avoid being out in the world. (False!) We are trying to put more of an emphasis on players going out into the world to do stuff, so (HGWT) is one of the ones that we are going to replace with (faster flight paths).
By making it less likely for people to get out into the world to do stuff? Again, in what context is HGWT being used? Either in (instanced) raiding which is all about summoning shortcuts anyway, or, wait for it, joining people out in the world!

Here's a thought experiment for yous guys. Give a player the choice of everything between walking and HGWT and tell him, during his limited playtime, to choose one mode to go out in the world. Which one will he choose? HGWT? Buzzzzz! Wrong. He can't use HGWT to port himself out into the world, so he's not using it to avoid being in the world. Queen to King's Bishop 4. Check.

Now, same thought experiment, only it's his friend asking him to join him. Which would he use? HGWT! Now, which exactly PROMOTES world presence, good will and happier groups more than any other mode, and you want to get rid of it?!

Now, for the purposes of MoP, it is perfectly reasonable to shut off HGWT until max level. You're turning off flying, so it's obvious you're telling us to hit the road and explore the new content. Can't wait to do so.

That said, the other 85 levels of content, and end game users, is where the majority of HGWT use is going to derive: via grouping in the world and raiding, the two cases where it's most useful and beneficial to your stated goals.

And you want to get rid of it.


For the record, I'm just playing devil's advocate

Like it.


This Louis CK skit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpUNA2nutbk) reminds of me of WoW's playerbase overall (and most of the world as it is). This isn't focused at anyone here, but I find it funny and figured that I would share.

Great, now I can't play the game as is AND I feel guilty. I need a hug.


In my opinion, there are other things in this game that could use attention

I'm listening?

[MiRai]

While I don't have usage statistics, I do have the mechanics of how it works (and the non-scientific poll (http://poll.pollcode.com/9sl)), and them's the facts I'm referring to
Online poll results are usually heavily skewed and generally hold no weight for many reasons. Out of the current subscriber base that World of Warcraft has (10.2 million), 117 people have voted on that poll as of me writing this which is far less than 1%. Another flaw was that I was able to use a proxy to vote twice on the poll... so now the results are definitely skewed. ;)

I highly doubt that Blizzard will take a poll seriously that they, themselves, did not conduct.


I'm listening?
I'll be honest, I don't have a list prepared and such discussion is only asking for thread derailment but, two things that immediately come to mind that I've seen other people suggest and I agree with would be:

-PvP Rating Decay
-Revamped Default UI

Blizzard has gotten rid of their suggestion forum and any suggestions for them should go into the appropriate forum (or so I'm told). There has got to be a handful of good suggestions floating around in their forums, but because they're all spread out now it's more difficult for people to see them and say, "Yeah, that's a good idea!".

[Fogyreef]

Yeah, that's why I tagged it with "non-scientific". It's just heavily skewed in my favor. lol

The default UI has come far, but not nearly far enough. I agree. I don't PvP much, but yeah. They also need to make the LFG chat channel work outside cities if they want people to get out of them.

[Fogyreef]

While I don't have usage statistics, I do have the mechanics of how it works (and the non-scientific poll), and them's the facts I'm referring to:




Oops, I just realized that I inferred the poll was part of the fact pitch. It certainly wasn't. Just me injecting tongue in cheek.

[ebony]

Oops, I just realized that I inferred the poll was part of the fact pitch. It certainly wasn't. Just me injecting tongue in cheek.


What and players use the LFG channel in citys? if they did make a LFG outside world then it just be a globe Trade channel (AKA SPAM!)


Even in beta its still hard to work out what there going to do, but put it this way not one thing u can atm is in a "city" or a Day quest hub

eg black market ah in the middle off nowhere. cooking quest u got to go to a market town. other towns have things to do we have to s e what happens at 90.

[MadMilitia]

I agree with those stating that HGWT isn't necessary if the open world isn't mundane.

The problem with any MMO is that it is built around a structure of progression.

As players progress, they eventually move 'old' content to the dustbin. Even if those areas receive graphical and/or quest overhauls, it is still marginal content for a high level character thus they never bother with it.

So years on, an MMO has a significant problem keeping people entertained. Their progression model has rendered all their old world content 'old' and they are in a constantly difficult battle to introduce new content exceeding the old content which never ceases to grow and impose a comparison.

The aura that is generated at that stage is awful. It clearly appears that the publisher has hit the skids on creativity but that's not necessarily the case. What has happened is progression has always been a mill stone on the game and no amount of developers/artists/designers can fill the growing void.

The quick fix here would be to keep the old content as relevant as the new content. There just aren't any engaging encounters, items, quests for high level characters in the old world. Put that back in and people will stop camping in Ogrimmar/Stormwind all day.

Ideally, at least in my mind going forward, MMOs should maintain relevancy in the old content as much as possible.

[Fogyreef]

I agree with those stating that HGWT isn't necessary if the open world isn't mundane.

... The quick fix here would be to keep the old content as relevant as the new content.

What if Blizzard had kept with the original two continents and radically changed them and the story for each expansion? They didn't have phasing back in the day, but the world bloat wouldn't have happened and all of their resources would have been put towards improving the current content. It would be a much more intimate world.

I'd still use the crap out of HGWT for my multiboxing, though. :)