MoP Beta - Group Composition viability (ongoing process)

[Mokoi]

First off.. I want this to be a thread where people can discuss various combinations, or groups for MoP. We are all kind of watching things, reading notes etc. For me, I like doing the theorycrafting. I like to know what options I have, and which ones offer me the best chances for success.

OBVIOUSLY this is still speculative. If you do not like speculation, please just move on. If I end up being the only person to use this thread, that's fine, too. I need a place to put my thoughts. If anyone else finds them useful, bonus. If not, no worries.

Since I am a 10 boxer, I will discuss both 5 man teams and 10 man teams. Sorry to those who do not have 10 (yet .. /evilgrin )

I will try and rank them, give them scores or points, and then calculate (at least how I would calculate them) which teams offer the best viability and stability.

Feel free to add, discuss, but not to flame.

One post, One Team.

I will use the following measurables to determine an overall "viability score" for each team. This final score, much like an IQ test is not an actual score, but a theoretical score. It may not have any bearing on if the team is good, fun or popular. It is merely my way of making sense of a huge amount of information.

Survivability - X/10
Pretty self-explanitory. How hard is it to kill the team? How much damage can the team endure while still being competitive? What kind of defensive cooldowns or passive damage reduction does the team have?

Damage - X/10
Can the team dish the damage? Ranged and Melee will have similar criteria. Can you stay on target? Are you mobile?

Healing - X/10
Can all team members heal? What if your healer dies? Healing is scored not just by what the dedicated healer (if there is one) can do, but overall healing. 4 shaman can still easily heal themselves if a paladin healer dies, but 4 warriors will be up shit creek.

Ease of use - X/10
How do abilities work? Can abilities be easily macro'd or are many good abilities passive? How much micro-management is required for the team to be effective? The more "no-brainer" abilities the better. Can I spam one button and my class fulfil it's role effectively?

Synergy - X/10
Does stacking this team offer buffs that they would not otherwise have access to if it were a solo toon? ie: multiple paladins can give both blessings, but multiple druids can not buff anymore than one druid can. Take into consideration heals, abilities etc that may affect multiple allies. 5x Wild growth is amazing, but 5x prayer of mending overwrites itself a lot, minimizing it's effectiveness.

Crowd Control - X/5
Obvious. Is the team able to lock-out, stun, incapacitate or otherwise CC a target, or multiple targets. Is this CC easy or difficult to use? (ie: 5 polymorphs are more difficult than one aoe fear to accomplish)

Longevity - X/5
Does this team rely on a resource that is limited, or scarce? ie: mana users run out of mana, DKs never run out of runes. This is primarily concerned with long fights, either in a BG or arena, where a team may face the challenge of "running out of steam". ie: a shaman with 0 mana is useless.

Flexibility - X/5
Does this team have multiple roles, for things like dungeons. When you need to do a quest or a dungeon run,or while leveling, can you queue for LFG / LFR easily. Can you switch to a tank spec and tank that world boss, or BG boss? Can your DPS switch to a healing spec and heal this raid? This dungeon? For this BG?

Recoverability - X/5
Whathappens when we wipe? or when we have lost 3/5 characters? What kind of ressurection or battle res have we got at our disposal? can any member of our team res any other member? ie: 5 feral druids will recover much easier than 5 rogues. In some situations, like AV.. we might need to res our toons instead of letting them res at a GY and run all the way back. We might have to use a rebirth in combat easily to continue to fight. (yes, we have mass res, but that's equal across all boards, and so can not be taken into account)

[Mokoi]

I want to start with one of my favorite teams... and one which my good friend, Mosg2 really has pioneered not just for the release of Cata, but ever since.

4-9 Deathknights and a Healer

The healer is a choice which is separated from the choice of the melee character, and so I will not theorycraft the use of different healers classes as heavily as the DKs.

Survivability - 9/10
DKs have excellent, and continue to have excellent survivability. This has not changed in MoP, and in fact has gotten better.

Damage - 7/10
DKs continue to have great damage. It is mostly Melee, and there seems to be a problem with downtime again, where runes and RP is diminished, with nothing to do but Auto-attack. That could prove to be a problem if it occurs when your target is at 10% and you have no way to stop them from healing to full before you have a rune again.

Healing - 7/10
Healing for this team relies heavily on the healer, which can be excellent, but is often killed easily, or runs out of mana. Once a healer is gone, this team must rely on self-heals, which are fairly good, but at a high cost of damage.

Ease of use - 9/10
Ever since Mosg2 revealed to us how brilliant he is, and his use of a first come first serve system, running a DK has never been easier. They continue to be an easy to manage with procs, cooldowns and other abilities. This does not seem to be affected yet in MoP. Almost all cooldowns can be macro'd, most abilities are easy to FCFS, and there are no procs which you really have to manage. g.g.

Synergy - 3/10
DK's do not offer buffs that they can share, or benefit from above and beyond a single DK. The choice of healer class will determine the buffs, and the DKs have no way to assist each other independently. However, DKs have Death Grip, and 5x Death grip is 5x better than one DG. This ability sunergy is very good, and accounts for all of the DK's points. ALSO: The new (but untested) lvl 90 talent point "Gorefiend's Grasp" and "Remorseless winter" seem beneficial when stacked, too. but conservatively we can not yet count on talents that have never been used.

Crowd Control - 3/5
DKs continue to have excellent CC, and if talented, have even more CC. A Darth Vader throat crush will mean that even those pesky tanks in BGs can not dodge or parry abilities (I assume) making even a hardened enemy easier to take out. Silences and Interrupts are easily macro'd or added to rotations. No long-term CC like Poly makes the class a bit weaker.

Longevity - 3/5
DKs use a resource which is continually regenerating, and therefore the DK will continue to deal damage even in super-long fights. Obviously healer longevity is seperate to this, and I have taken 2 points away to be conservative, knowing fully-well that a DK team without a healer is a dead DK team.

Flexibility - 4/5
DKs can fill two roles, and with a healer on the team they can easily queue for dungeons for gear, or raid in LFR easily and quickly (gear dependent). One point taken away because Melee teams are often harder to control and work in a dungeon / raid.

Recoverability - 4/5
DKs have a battle-res, which makes recovering in an area where it is too difficult or time-consuming to run back from a GY easier. Also a healer will always be able to ressurect fallen DKs, if he stays alive.

Final Score - 49 / 70

Remembering that the DK team loses a lot of points because there are no buffs to stack, and because it relies so heavily on a healer... DKs are still one of the most interesting, flexible and dominant teams available today.

[Mokoi]

5 or 10 Mages

A healer would be a good addition to maybe a BG group, but for most purposes, mages work best alone. This is due to many of their mechanics, like invisibility, mirror images, etc.

Survivability - 3/10
Mages have very little in the way of damage mitigation as a multiboxer. A solo frost mage is almost unkillable for many classes, but unless you're a God and more competent than the average bear, you will be a sitting duck as a multiboxer. This is bad news for our survivability.

Damage - 9/10
Nothing beats the damage of arcane mages while casting on a target. I took away a point because of course many times it's difficult to move and cast as arcane, but I am not discounting the idea that frost or fire could be way OP in MoP.. Either way, I would say that DPS as a mage is great, but contingent on having a clear field to shoot at. If they aren't aware of you, they are dead.

Healing - 3/10
Healing for this team relies solely on the glyph of evocate (confirmed still in game?) and on food eaten out of combat. Bad news on the healing front.

Ease of use -8/10
For the most part, I play arcane. Nothing easier than spamming one ability, on one bar that does 90% of your DPS. Arcane is pretty easy and you just target something red until it's dead. nothing complicated here. However!!... To play mages even better, requires a huge level of control and coordination. I played the shamans for years so I am in a turret mode in all of my ranged teams, so I am not giving myself the benefit of the doubt of being able to control them any better.

Synergy - 1/10
Mages don't offer much except for CCs that they can overlap. There are fery few abilities that overlap or benefit the mage more than if they were playing solo.

Crowd Control - 5/5
Poly, silence, roots, stun. Enough said. nothing competes with the (albeit difficult to control and master at times) CC of a mage.

Longevity - 2/5
Evocate, mana gems make for some more tools to stay in a fight, but when the tools and mana are gone, you are gone. g.g.

Flexibility - 2/5
in LFR mages are great, since we do easy, reliable and high DPS. in a Dungeon, you can not queue as a group, but like Beeq you may be able to burst the bosses down easily. unknown right now. In a BG sometimes it's nice to switch a DPS toon to heals for a boss, but I have found that 10 mages take a boss down so fast you rarely need to use anything but DPS to kill it, as long as there is a half decent healer and a plate-rambo around.

Recoverability - 0/5
If you die... that's it. no brez, no res (outside of guild res, which I think (is it?) might get nerfed or removed from the game.)

BONUS POINTS - 5/5

I am giving this team bonus points for being really hilarious. Nothing pisses horde off more than 10 mages appearing out of nowhere popping coodowns and stomping their face while Van is at 10% hahahahahahaha. good times.

Final Score - 33+5 / 70

Well, a really crappy score, but honestly I simply LOVE THIS TEAM!

The fun-factor of invising into a group of 40 horde and then KILLING ALL OF THEM is worth the fact that it's the worst team imaginable on paper (except rogues)

[Mokoi]

Reserved....

[Selz]

I want to start 10boxing also, but I have to get a new PC for that, im aiming for 10x mages in MoP as farm team, else im going with the regular 4-5man team either a mixed group or 4x Ele & 4x Ret
on top of that I hope to find someone to do PvE content with.

[MiRai]

I think what is slightly confusing to me is that some of the categories are worth 5 points and some are worth 10. Even at 44/75, DKs still get a failing grade of ~58% as per the Academic grading in the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_grading_in_the_United_States#Numerical_an d_letter_grades). :)

I like this, though. It'll be easy to point people to these posts for all the "What do you think is going to be the best comp to play in MoP?" threads that there will be before (and after) the expansion goes live.

[Mokoi]

Reserved.....

[Mokoi]

I want to start 10boxing also, but I have to get a new PC for that, im aiming for 10x mages in MoP as farm team, else im going with the regular 4-5man team either a mixed group or 4x Ele & 4x Ret
on top of that I hope to find someone to do PvE content with.

That's great Selz, but keep this thread to facts about the classes, and opinions on the points I have made, thanks. We don't really need another "I'm going to make ............ team " thread. we have those, now we need to know why :)


I think what is slightly confusing to me is that some of the categories are worth 5 points and some are worth 10. Even at 44/75, DKs still get a failing grade of ~58% as per the Academic grading in the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_grading_in_the_United_States#Numerical_an d_letter_grades). :)

I like this, though. It'll be easy to point people to these posts for all the "What do you think is going to be the best comp to play in MoP?" threads that there will be before (and after) the expansion goes live.

Mirai, sorry for the confusion. I am giving the different characteristics of the team different weights. I think that the survivability of the team is worth more than it's recoverability, or it's flexibility. Those are good, too but they are not as important. So even a team thats REALLY flexible, that's only worth half as much as a team who's really survivable (to me and for my purposes)

Also, this isn't an academic grade, since it is impossible to get 100%. I am guessing that we should expect a range of 30-50 from our favorite teams, and 10-30 for some of our crazier, silly or gimmicky teams (like rogues haha)

[Ualaa]

Would you do a separate post for the same class but with different specs?
Shockadin vs Ret Paladins; Ferals vs Resto Druids...

[Mokoi]

Would you do a separate post for the same class but with different specs?
Shockadin vs Ret Paladins; Ferals vs Resto Druids...

no, i consider a team as an investment in time. The investment to get to 90 will probably be sufficient to warrant careful choices of the multiople classes we likely will have at 85 when it comes out. This means that teams with multiple options (like druids) should score high because of their utility, and potential. I will do my best to get some more up. right now i am focused on my RAF lvling, and my videos on RAF boosting.

[Multibocks]

I'm going to disagree with your healing score on X Dks + Healer. DKs have conversion and deathstrike - that combination is extremely powerful. Conversion is pretty easy to maintain as well as I have found videos on youtube showing how hard it is to actually lose it (basically have to stop using attacks).

[Mokoi]

I'm going to disagree with your healing score on X Dks + Healer. DKs have conversion and deathstrike - that combination is extremely powerful. Conversion is pretty easy to maintain as well as I have found videos on youtube showing how hard it is to actually lose it (basically have to stop using attacks).

Thats great news! i was a bit skeptical about conversion, and it's still not healing on a target.. which is what we need.. but we still have DC and Lichborne if you take it, so I am going to upgrade it :)

Changed :)

[Fat Tire]

I love conversion and the cheat death dks get over lichborne and I will take desacrated ground over any of the lvl 90 talents for dks. However, I will reserve judgement until the live release as blizzard has not got to the tuning phase of the numbers yet. I know this thread is about 5/10 man teams and since i only play three my veiw is a bit skewed, but I think ret/ret/dk is amazing atm to box and will be the same in mop or maybe better. So maybe you could do a team of 4 rets/dk, DS got a large buff in the last beta patch of 120% weapon dmg up from 50% and when I look at the aoe/passive healing lvl 90 talents that rets are getting it gets me excited.

[JackBurton]

Really good information. I like the way its presented logically. I see how some area's only net 5 points because they are not as important. ie CC is rarely used. especially if you can just aoe or tank anything in your way.

[Ualaa]

Druids (x5)

Mine will be Feral/Resto, but they also include the option of Boomkin (Ranged Caster) or Guardian (Tank), meaning the team could go 1x Heals, 1x Tank, 3x DPS for PvE content.
I'll let you decide on the rating value, but try to keep to the same organizational template.





Feral

Survivability:
Druids get to pick and choose which fights they participate in and which they avoid; Stealth and the element of surprise are an incredible advantage.

Druids feature exceptional mobility:
- Their base move (including Feline Swiftness) is +30%, which is faster than almost everyone else; this offsets the Stealth movement penalty too.
- Travel Form increases this to +40%, and is usable in combat... or Aquatic Form bestows +50% swim speed and underwater breathing.
- In MoP, disentanglement is returned... meaning the act of shifting (or Power Shifting into your current form) will break all root/snare effects.
- Dash (15 sec every 3 min) gives +70% movement, and breaks root/snare effects; Stampeding Roar (round-robin) is almost as good (+60% move for 8 seconds and breaks root/snare) for yourself and friendly players within 10 yards.

Barkskin (12 sec, every 60 sec) reduces damage from every source by 20%, and can be activated even when stunned/feared/incapacitated/etc.
Nature's Grasp (1 charge, 45 sec duration per minute) will Root an enemy.

Might of Ursoc (20 sec, usable every 3 min) will activate Bear Form, and add +30% current/maximum health.

Symbiosis: Hunter (Play Dead) will be a strong ability for PvE, while Paladin (Divine Shield, aka "Bubble") will likely be a top PvP option.

Ursol's Vortex & Disorienting Roar (both at 75th) provide additional options; the Vortex will snare enemies and pull them back the first time they attempt to leave it, and Disorienting Roar is like a Rogue's Blind (lasts 3 sec, usable every 30 sec). I'd likely mix the two, across the team.


Damage:
Their damage is only single target (sure you can Swipe, but that hits for very little and uses a lot of energy).
However, they hit very hard... easily (each) dealing more single target damage than my Frost DK's, at equal gear.

Boxed, a simple rotation that is not dependent upon facing is: Mangle, Rake, Mangle, Mangle, Rip.
With Primal Fury awarding an extra Combo Point on a critical, four moves gets close to 95% chance of at least one move being a critical by the time the sequence reaches Rip.
I basically just did this rotation + IWT.
In MoP, Mangle/Shred will extend the duration of Rip by 2 seconds per application (to a maximum of +6 seconds).

Rake & Rip are dots, which means they ignore a targets armor.
Mangle is physical damage, which is reduced by armor; it places a debuff on the target, which increases Bleed damage effects.

Savage Roar will be returning, it will add +30% physical damage for 18 seconds (on 1 combo point), or +6 seconds for each additional combo point.

Their "alpha strike" can be devastating -- Ravage, which hits for 850% damage, and has a +50% crit chance against targets at/above 80% health.
Ferals have a fairly high crit rate to begin with, due to all their Agility, so this is almost a guaranteed critical hit from each; in battlegrounds, it is not unusual to kill whatever you open on.
Ravage is dependent on being in the rear arc, which makes it a little harder to use.
Incarnation will give the ability to use Stealth moves, 30 sec (every 3 min).

Druids have two burst abilities:
Tiger's Fury (6 sec, every 30 sec), increases physical damage by 15% and instantly restores 60 energy (cannot be used during Berserk, so initiate this first).
Berserk (15 sec, every 3 min), abilities only cost 50% energy.

Symbiosis on a Warrior grants Shattering Blow, which will remove an immunity effect such as Divine Shield or Ice Block.


Healing:
Nature's Swiftness (1 min cooldown) combined with Healing Touch (150% normal effect), looks to be an extremely nice tool to round-robin; this is usable with Rebirth (battle rez) as well.
/cast Nature's Swiftness
/cast [@mouseover,dead] Rebirth; [@mouseover] Healing Touch

Predatory Swiftness takes the druid out of Cat Form, but 97% of the time any given druid (likely all five) have an instant cast and mana free: Healing Touch, Rebirth, or Cyclone.
With or without Predatory Swiftness, Rejuvenation is also an option.

Nature's Vigil (level 90) looks to be great. For 30 seconds (every 3 minutes), damage is increased by 30% and a nearby ally is healed for 50% of the damage dealt; I'll likely round-robin this effect, as sometimes 1-2 clicks will be plenty and at other points all five at once will counter opposing burst.

The team could easily be run with one Druid as Resto specialization, which would provide a mobile healer and a similar style to the Pally/DK's.
A Resto-Shaman is also an option, as Symbiosis would bestow the Prowl ability to their Ghost Wolf.
I personally like 5x DPS, and think the level of healing is quite strong already, especially when combined with their mobility and escape options.


Ease of Use:
For the most part, the team is one button mash; I use a main DPS sequence, which includes IWT.
It won't be hard to build a mapped key for Mangle > Savage Roar, as the opener which then leads into the normal DPS sequence.
I'll likely include the Barkskin and Nature's Grasp in the DPS spam.

For specials, we don't have that much to manage:
- NS (Healing Touch or Rebirth), using Grid the same as the Pally on the DK team.
- Ravage opener.
- Cat Form (for Power Shifting).
- Might of Ursoc, could be a Grid ability.
- Ursol's Vortex, in the place of Death & Decay (likely on the same keybind, for ease).


Synergy:
Multiple druids don't add that much beyond a single druid.
Pretty much, all we get with extra druids is extra uses of round-robin abilities... like instant-cast Battle-Rez...
We have the ability to mix and match the new talents:


Crowd Control:
They don't have any hard crowd control, such as Hex/Polymorph or Hungering Cold/Freezing Trap.

They do have several root effects, including passively rooting someone just for being hit... and the new Mass Entanglement (5 Targets, every 2 minutes).
Typhoon, from stealth and usable in Kitty Form, will be fun to knock opponents off of Lumber Mill (AB), a cliff (EotS) or the bridge (AV)...

Disorienting Roar will act like a Rogue's Blind (3 sec, every 30 sec).
And Ursol's Vortex (also level 75), provides snare and prevents a target from leaving an area, for a short duration... but will be usable both offensively (cannot evade our claws) or defensively (cannot chase that flag carrier).


Longevity:
Ferals are based off of Energy, which constantly regenerates at a fixed rate; their rotation could be spammed for eternity.
Offensive specials are on fairly short cooldowns (Tiger's Fury, every 30 seconds).

In PvP, my Feral team often acted as a 'Guerilla Force' while gearing up; destroy something via Ravage, attack until focused, run away, eat, return and blow mana healing and innervate ally healers, and then begin the cycle again.
There wasn't much the other side could do about it.


Flexibility:
Besides Druids, only a Paladin team can fulfill all three roles of Tank + Healer + Damage.
Druids offer both Melee and Ranged damage, so I would give them 5+ in this category.

Also, Heart of the Wild grants 45 seconds (every 6 minutes) of dramatically increasing the Druid's ability to act as if it were one of the other three specialization choices.


Recoverability:
Druids have a battle-rez, and it is not dependent on having a high level of Runic Power.
They can stealth into an area, and then instantly battle rez (and glyphed this is a 100% heal).

Nothing comes close to a Druid's ability to leave an area quickly... faster base movement, Dash, Disentanglement...
Flight Form is an instant cast, allowing quicker escape from any area where flight is possible, than any other class.

[Mokoi]

Druids

Since Ualaa started this, I thought I would just add what I think (I have 10 druids) about the scores on this team, and details can be referenced from his very excellent and detailed post! Thanks, Ualaa!.

Survivability - 9/10 - Tank form, heals, great cooldowns... druids can last a long time. Not to mention if you run resto..
Damage - 9/10 - Some of the best single-target DMG for melee.
Healing - 8/10 - Simple rejuv stacks can keep a bear alive through a LOT of trouble.
Ease of use -7/10 - Facing requirements and some issues with combo points being wasted if not used correctly means they are not quite as "point and shoot" as DKs.
Synergy - 2/10 - Apart from the fast that the HoTs stack, druids gain no superior gains from increased numbers.
Crowd Control - 3/5 - roots and cyclone are good, and if you get the stuns, they are pretty handy too.
Longevity - 3/5 - Energy for melee druids, and innervate for resto/boomkin. Great!
Flexibility - 5/5 - easily the most versatile class to box.
Recoverability - 5/5 - As ualaa said, this is an easy group to recover a wipe from. Brez and normal resses at your fingertips.

Final Score - 53 / 70

[zenga]

5x shamans are gonna be close to 100% I bet :)

[Sam DeathWalker]

1 Prot Pal
1 Disc Priest
3 Fire (pvp) or Arcane (pve) Mage


1 Prot Pal
2 Disc Priest
7 Fire (pvp) or Arcane (pve) Mage


I think these are the strongest but no time to go into detial rl is beating me up.


Survivability - 7/10 - Priest has solid healing, prot pal very hard to kill
Damage - 10/10 - Mage rox
Healing - 6/10 - priests
Ease of use -9/10 - just 3 classes to write macros for, range killing, tank leader
Synergy - 3/10 - 3 classes although minimal stacking
Crowd Control - 5/5 - sheep, fear
Longevity - 4/5 - Some mage spells use little or no mana
Flexibility - 5/5 - priest can os to damage, some healing from pal
Recoverability - 2/5 - pal and priest

Tank 2 (any group that has a proper tank should get a bonus)
One Shot 4 (any group that can one shot a pvp oppenent at 40 yards should get a bonus)
Anti Fear 2 (a group that can stop fear should get a bonus)
Cast while moving 2 (a group that can cast while moving should get a bonus)


51 total plus 10 bonus

[Mokoi]

5x shamans are gonna be close to 100% I bet http://www.dual-boxing.com//images/smilies/smile.png

I'm not very hopeful about that =(



Thanks for your opinion, Sam, but I have to disagree on some of your points. I hope you have the time to address the details, which is the most important part of this thread.

Some tips for those who want to post:

1. no bonus points for tanks, that's what the "flexibility" category is for.
2. One shot - we have no idea what classes will one shot at lvl 90.
3. This is a thread for MoP teams, and the theorycrafting associated with the new talents and specs. Not for lvl 85, which by now everyone is well aware of.

[ebony]

got some stuff to add to mages Guild res is still in game and working as it does today on live :)... no changes so far to this (its have a group will thats been removed) saying that that makes mages even more useful as they have portal/telport that are free to use as well

mages have a lot Survivability then they do on live in all specs.


Ill try and make a one for warlocks that looking a very cool class to play in mop (well it is :D)

[Ualaa]

I'm personally excited for:
- 5x Feral -and- 5x Resto
- 1x Pally & 4x DK
- 1x DK & 4x Pally

From what I've seen, I'd really like for my Warlock team (4x Lock, 1x Priest) to already be leveled.
And wasn't sure (at creation) whether to go 5x... or 4x + 1x.
But, non-RAF leveling 5x Pallies (will sub the 80 DK in, when the pallies reach 80th)... well that is slower than I'd like...
And another team to level (these from 22nd), isn't a fun prospect.

[Owltoid]

Fury warrior tank, 4 discipline priests

Survivability - 8/10
Tons of overhealing going on, but the fury warrior tank is prone to spikes in damage. In the expansion atonement will also work with penance, which means a LOT more healing. Also, all warrior abilities are available in all stances, so the fury warrior will be able to use all fury abilities in defensive stance, which gives more survivability.

Damage - 3/10
The fury warrior should be out DPSing most, if not all, tanks. However, the priests are significantly worse than a DPS. If you use the system where a typical tank is worth .75 DPS, a DPS is worth 1.00 DPS, and a healer is worth 0 DPS, then the total team score is 3.75 DPS. I'd say the fury warrior tank is about 1.25 DPS (unlimited rage), and the priests are 0.50 DPS, which leads to a team score of 3.25 DPS.

Healing - 10/10
I can't imagine a stronger healing team. However, the ability to use all the healing abilities is limited by skill level - the potential is there, though.

Ease of use - 8/10
Not quite as easy as a shaman team, but overall pretty easy to use. The passive healing allows for one button spamming for the slaves, except in emergency situations (which do happen often). The fury warrior is surprisingly easy to play once you're used to it, though not as easy as a typical pally tank.

Synergy - 2/10
Probably the only good synergy is Hymnn of Hope for massive mana regen every 6 minutes. I suppose the synergy is extremely strong from a passive healing point of view (i.e. the disc priests needs other disc priests so that they can atonement spam). However, no real buff synergy and not exactly an optimized team.

Crowd Control - 3/5
Although I rarely use it, pretty strong crowd control potential. Not as secure as a mage polymorph, but mind control and fears can do quite a bit if utilized.

Longevity - 3/5
The biggest limiting factor is enrage timers. With low DPS, if it's a race then the team will have difficulty. Mana issues can be present, but with smart use of shadowfiends and hymnn, it's not terribly bad.

Flexibility - 4/5
Although I like to stick to the formula of all disc and fury, the team could easily switch to prot tank, three shadow and one holy, which would be a very strong team. Lots of flexiblity.

Recoverability - 4/5
Surprisingly good. If the tank dies then often the priests can tank for a long time due to the passive healing and PW Barrier. Sometimes it makes me wonder if the fury warrior is really needed, but then I remember the "tank" is the main source of damage.

[MiRai]

Is the above group composition for MoP or Cata?

[Owltoid]

MoP (I mention penance atonement and fury abilities being available in defensive stance)

[Mokoi]

got some stuff to add to mages Guild res is still in game and working as it does today on live :)... no changes so far to this (its have a group will thats been removed) saying that that makes mages even more useful as they have portal/telport that are free to use as well

mages have a lot Survivability then they do on live in all specs.


Ill try and make a one for warlocks that looking a very cool class to play in mop (well it is :D)

cool to hear about the mages!

I am in the middle of doing a warlock one right now, should be finished soon.

Owltoid:

That sounds awesome, I wanted to do a work-up on 5x priests, so this is a great start, thanks! I am kind of sad about the change to Vampiric embrace for shadow, but I suppose it's nicer to have larger passive heals on demand with the new way, and as disc healing is great!

[Shodokan]

Is this a PVP or PVE setup thread? Dks should be much much higher if it is pvp.

[MiRai]

Is this a PVP or PVE setup thread? Dks should be much much higher if it is pvp.
I would guess it's an average between both but, maybe the total scores should be separated from each other. /shrug

[Mokoi]

It's for PvP, but it has a section "flexibility" for some PvE aspects, such as completing PvE content with the team.

DKs are very high. There is no team that can have a perfect score, or everyone would just run that team and win. Dks and a healer probably have the hghest score we will see. I just haven't had enough time to go over more teams yet :)

I think Owl put his priest tank group up for PvP, and that's fine, but honestly any combination of tank healer and DPS will do fine in PvE, that's not my concern. PvP is much harder in some respects, and the classes themselves play a much bigger role. It's hard to move your DPS out of the fire in pvE while you are tanking and healing, but the DPS could be any classes. It's just as easy to move priests as it is to move a hunter.

In PvP however, you have cooldowns you need to use, synergy in the team to help burst, etc. That's my focus, that's why I created the thread.

[Shodokan]

Are we rating this on a group of 5 or can i do 3? If so I'll list one of the comps I plan on running and the positives and negatives of it etc

[Mokoi]

Shok, you are free to talk about the comps you like :) But, I think that you should talk about how it's good as a group with X number of toons. IE: a group of 2 Ret and a DK is pretty similar to 4 Ret and a DK, except for the arena viability. So I would just talk about X class and X class working together, and not get caught up with the numbers. I have been talking about 5-10 in my lists, because thats what I find most people are running a 5 or 10 man group. But we want to hear what you think, you are one of the top arena players.

[Ualaa]

Most will five box, but many will four box.
And there are three/ten boxers out there.

It wouldn't hurt to list any composition, as that can be adapted to whatever size a given boxer wants to use.
I'd say go for it.

[Shodokan]

Shok, you are free to talk about the comps you like :) But, I think that you should talk about how it's good as a group with X number of toons. IE: a group of 2 Ret and a DK is pretty similar to 4 Ret and a DK, except for the arena viability. So I would just talk about X class and X class working together, and not get caught up with the numbers. I have been talking about 5-10 in my lists, because thats what I find most people are running a 5 or 10 man group. But we want to hear what you think, you are one of the top arena players.

So am I talking about arena, bgs, should I add in my own areas to discuss those other than the current scale?

[Mokoi]

All I was saying, is that my focus is PvP. I don't realy care about PvE, and for this discussion, it is pretty irrellevant. X DPS is X DPS.. doesn't matter much if it's a hunter or a warlock. But a hunter and a warlock play totally differently in a BG or arena, so that's why an analysis is required.

Go ahead and asses your teams, in whatever composition you like. Just try and keep it simple:

"Ret Pallies and a DK". instead of "2 Ret Pallies and a DK" since the difference between 2 ret and 4 ret is insignificant for talking about in this thread. now, "1 Ret Pally and 4 DK" would be different, and warrant a new discussion :)

gogo analyze! (and keep it to MoP stuff)

[Fat Tire]

I think if your going to keep with the mop theme that analyzing the effects of the new aoe CC that everyone will have on muti boxing teams and how its going to effect them would be paramount. Aoe fear can mess up new boxers but most experienced boxers have gotten used to it and adjusted. However, when you throw in the new CC i.e aoe blinds/knockdowns most classes are getting and with dispels being 8 sec cd, seems like its going to be pretty rough.

[Shodokan]

I think if your going to keep with the mop theme that analyzing the the effects of the new aoe CC that everyone will have on muti boxing teams and how its going to effect them would be paramount. Aoe fear can mess up new boxers but most experienced boxers have gotten used to it and adjusted. However, when you throw in the new CC i.e aoe blinds/knockdowns most classes are getting and with dispels being 8 sec cd, seems like its going to be pretty rough.

Warriors - AOE throwdown that knocks back
This ability will be pretty stupid as even if you trinket it you will still be stuck in place for the duration. This can fuck melee comps pretty badly but you can still deal with it, if you die in 3 seconds (in 3's) something is wrong...in 5's though enough burst can kill you that fast (i do it all the time)

Paladins - AOE blind or throwdown
Refer to above, but blind can be broken just remember that.

Hunters - Glaive toss (slow)
Since we are in a line most of the time or clumped up glaive toss can do quite a bit of damage to us. Also slows.

Hunters - Binding shot (seriously, wtf)
Throws an arrow on the ground, if you go 10 yards away from it then you are stunned for 5 seconds.... Seriously? Forces you to stop chasing and allows for kiting.

Deathknights - Remorseless winter
AOE ability that will stun after 5 stacks for 6 seconds as well as slows. This can severely screw you over if you have no trinket since you are clumped together you can easily get the stacks put on your entire team and unless you kill the DK before the 5th stack.

Druids - Mass Entanglement
AOE root. Unless you are a paladin this can be a big deal. Entangling roots that spreads... enough said.

Druids - Disorienting Roar
3 second AOE blind, breaks on damage. I don't think this will be used much honestly

Druids - Ursol's Vortex
AOE targeted area slow that when you try to leave the area it pulls you back in. Basically this in 5's can be the death of you if they put it on you and kite away. Only way to deal with it seems to be death grip them INTO the vortex to do damage to them. Won't have any REAL impact on ranged classes IMO but it will still be annoying.

Mages - Ring of frost
30 second cooldown, same as it is now

Mages- Ice Ward
Someone gets this put on them, everything in 10 yards gets frozen in place. Basically another frost nova. Still stupid. 20 second cooldown.

Rogues - Paralytic Poison (Fan of knives)
You are stunned after 5 applications are put onto you. It can be an annoyance but rogues already stun so much we should be use to it by now.

Monk - Leg sweep (lol'd here)
5 second AOE stun/throwdown refer to warrior's just 2 seconds longer :(

Keep in mind that the AOE stuns and such will DR with normal stuns and disorients and such. So the impact there have are pretty great for classes with no secondary stuns because their cooldowns are longer than diminishing returns.

[Fat Tire]

Thanks shodo.

Also the cooldowns on some of those are pretty short 1min on the warrior one and 30 seconds on the druid one. I know DR but overall that is alot of new aoe CC.

Dont forget the warlock Rain of Fire which is fire and forget aoe stun after the second hit I believe.

[Shodokan]

Thanks shodo.

Also the cooldowns on some of those are pretty short 1min on the warrior one and 30 seconds on the druid one. I know DR but overall that is alot of new aoe CC.

Dont forget the warlock Rain of Fire which is fire and forget aoe stun after the second hit I believe.

I didn't see that, is that a new glyph?

[Fat Tire]

I didn't see that, is that a new glyph?

http://mop.wowhead.com/spell=104232/rain-of-fire

[Shodokan]

http://mop.wowhead.com/spell=104232/rain-of-fire

ah

that wastes stun DR so fast though.

[heyaz]

Warriors - AOE throwdown that knocks back
This ability will be pretty stupid as even if you trinket it you will still be stuck in place for the duration. This can fuck melee comps pretty badly but you can still deal with it, if you die in 3 seconds (in 3's) something is wrong...in 5's though enough burst can kill you that fast (i do it all the time)

Paladins - AOE blind or throwdown
Refer to above, but blind can be broken just remember that.

Hunters - Glaive toss (slow)
Since we are in a line most of the time or clumped up glaive toss can do quite a bit of damage to us. Also slows.

Hunters - Binding shot (seriously, wtf)
Throws an arrow on the ground, if you go 10 yards away from it then you are stunned for 5 seconds.... Seriously? Forces you to stop chasing and allows for kiting.

Deathknights - Remorseless winter
AOE ability that will stun after 5 stacks for 6 seconds as well as slows. This can severely screw you over if you have no trinket since you are clumped together you can easily get the stacks put on your entire team and unless you kill the DK before the 5th stack.

Druids - Mass Entanglement
AOE root. Unless you are a paladin this can be a big deal. Entangling roots that spreads... enough said.

Druids - Disorienting Roar
3 second AOE blind, breaks on damage. I don't think this will be used much honestly

Druids - Ursol's Vortex
AOE targeted area slow that when you try to leave the area it pulls you back in. Basically this in 5's can be the death of you if they put it on you and kite away. Only way to deal with it seems to be death grip them INTO the vortex to do damage to them. Won't have any REAL impact on ranged classes IMO but it will still be annoying.

Mages - Ring of frost
30 second cooldown, same as it is now

Mages- Ice Ward
Someone gets this put on them, everything in 10 yards gets frozen in place. Basically another frost nova. Still stupid. 20 second cooldown.

Rogues - Paralytic Poison (Fan of knives)
You are stunned after 5 applications are put onto you. It can be an annoyance but rogues already stun so much we should be use to it by now.

Monk - Leg sweep (lol'd here)
5 second AOE stun/throwdown refer to warrior's just 2 seconds longer :(

Keep in mind that the AOE stuns and such will DR with normal stuns and disorients and such. So the impact there have are pretty great for classes with no secondary stuns because their cooldowns are longer than diminishing returns.

These are terrifying for a multiboxer in arena. Far worse than the crap we dealt with in Wrath, like shadowfury, aoe fears, pet nova, fan of knives. These MoP aoe abilities sound like complete gamebreakers, and you're likely to face teams with two or more of these abilities to screw you with. I can't even imagine doing 5s against this.

[Fat Tire]

These are terrifying for a multiboxer in arena. Far worse than the crap we dealt with in Wrath, like shadowfury, aoe fears, pet nova, fan of knives. These MoP aoe abilities sound like complete gamebreakers, and you're likely to face teams with two or more of these abilities to screw you with. I can't even imagine doing 5s against this.

I agree with you. It seems to me that a majority of these changes were made for Rated BGs with very little thought around arena. Most of the talents that heal are also aoe/lowest hp heals.

[Shodokan]

These are terrifying for a multiboxer in arena. Far worse than the crap we dealt with in Wrath, like shadowfury, aoe fears, pet nova, fan of knives. These MoP aoe abilities sound like complete gamebreakers, and you're likely to face teams with two or more of these abilities to screw you with. I can't even imagine doing 5s against this.

Not many classes are getting MORE aoe cc than they had before. You are forgetting that so many of these baseline spec talents are going into the talent tree for all specs instead.

The only class i see getting even more AOE cc than they had before is warriors, druids and hunters. Mages only had ROF before as AOE CC... and paladins didn't even have AOE cc, but in 5's with dot cleaves AOE blind isn't going to do much.

Some of these choices are same tier as well IIRC.

Like right now you can have

Fire mage (dragon breath, nova, ring of frost)
Spriest/disc priest (aoe fear)
Warlock (AOE fear)
Druid/boomkin (no aoe, aoe silence)
Paladin/Shaman (no aoe)

So they gain...
Mage: Nothing
Spriest: Nothing
Warlock: Nothing (choose between aoe fear and aoe stun)
Druid: Gain aoe roots/knockback (use to be baseline for boomkin) and disorient (breaks on damage IIRC)/stall you from getting on them
Paladin: Gain aoe blind but thats useless for a dot cleave, so it would be a 3 second throwdown glyphed.
Shaman gains no AOE cc.


Warriors gain the most: AOE throwdown, AOE stun, and still have their AOE fear.

So i mean in general there isn't a whole lot new to the fight, maybe 2-3 seconds more of not fighting if that due to DRs, and deathknights and shaman can either get out of most of it or negate it completely with totem that absorbs it. Paladins can get themselves out of roots/slows etc... Not much is going to be effected really, sure there might be another clutch thing something can do. But we can make comps that abuse some of these abilities as well.

EX: AOE death grip > AOE stun > AOE throwdown > Single target split silences.

[Fat Tire]

I look at it as specs that didnt have access to aoe cc or spammable cc now have access to it where before they didnt. Resto shamans with earthgrab(30 sec), holy pally with aoe blind and spammable repentance, resto druids get a multitude of cc and priest with their aoe rooting(30 sec) and aoe fear.

[Shodokan]

I look at it as specs that didnt have access to aoe cc or spammable cc now have access to it where before they didnt. Resto shamans with earthgrab(30 sec), holy pally with aoe blind and spammable repentance, resto druids get a multitude of cc and priest with their aoe rooting(30 sec) and aoe fear.

It will be an annoyance but nothing more. A good portion of dk damage is from range so the "you are stuck" things don't matter AS much.

5's has always been a broken CC fest though, this should come as no surprise, a lot of these things DR though as like i said... annoyance? Yes. Game breaking? Prob not.

THE reason it is a big deal if you wanna play it that way, our healers can no longer spam dispel things off of us.

[Peli]

These are terrifying for a multiboxer in arena. Far worse than the crap we dealt with in Wrath, like shadowfury, aoe fears, pet nova, fan of knives. These MoP aoe abilities sound like complete gamebreakers, and you're likely to face teams with two or more of these abilities to screw you with. I can't even imagine doing 5s against this.

Who at Blizz thought that these additions were a good idea? NO ONE likes being instagibbed and not being able to do a thing about it. Losing control of your character is incredibly frustrating, and dying without having a single opportunity to avoid it is infuriating. Here's hoping they make some major changes, otherwise PvP is just going to be a giant clusterfuck of AoE CC.

[Shodokan]

Who at Blizz thought that these additions were a good idea? NO ONE likes being instagibbed and not being able to do a thing about it. Losing control of your character is incredibly frustrating, and dying without having a single opportunity to avoid it is infuriating. Here's hoping they make some major changes, otherwise PvP is just going to be a giant clusterfuck of AoE CC.

Blizzard is balancing PVP to put their game back into the MLG tournament circuit. Thats why you have these balance changes and things to make skill and decision making shine.

[Fat Tire]

It will be an annoyance but nothing more. A good portion of dk damage is from range so the "you are stuck" things don't matter AS much.

5's has always been a broken CC fest though, this should come as no surprise, a lot of these things DR though as like i said... annoyance? Yes. Game breaking? Prob not.

THE reason it is a big deal if you wanna play it that way, our healers can no longer spam dispel things off of us.

I am with ya, I look forward to the challege. If it was easy it wouldnt be fun.

Edit: Thought I would post swifty-



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSfuw7L7L0g&list=UU6idiEhlPEreqzCWfQ_GiLw& index=3&feature=plcp

[MiRai]

Edit: Thought I would post swifty-
There really should be a rule on these boards about that...

[Fat Tire]

switfy or videos?

[Shodokan]

switfy or videos?

swifty

[Fat Tire]

swifty


hmmm...thought that video was informative, not sure why there would to be rules set against it.

[Shodokan]

hmmm...thought that video was informative, not sure why there would to be rules set against it.

He was being factitious.

[Mokoi]

He's also a commercial whore who sucks at videos, and for the money he makes, it's a little embarrassing.

I saw his "Warlock" in depth review, in which he blew his own mind with "warlocks have a knockback!" ... which they have had for some time on live.

I dunno. SO much hype about a guy who had one AWESOME warrior PvP video a long time ago, and then milking his moderate success ever since.

[smalltanker]

Has anyone in beta looked at grading a five monk party... maybe five brewmasters or one brewmaster and four healers?

[Blubber]

I'm curious about two groups I might want to run. Mostly BGs and a bit of questing. Anyone with some more beta experience then me (I have none ...) that can enlighten me as to the viability of 5x Elemental Shammy and 5x Disc priest?

[beeq]

I'm wondering how 5 mages will handle MoP 5man normal and heroic dungeons..
They have only one maneuver, which is very well known of. All CDs then AB*n+1 and then loot, but I'm afraid Blizzard isn't giving the candies away that easy :confused:

Still, in Cata the team is very strong. End Time hc with all the echoes including trash is quite easy. With heavy dps you still can make the bosses "forget" phases, which is cool :D