A new software solution needs your help!

[HydraCoder]

I'm in the process of writing up a new multiboxing software solution, and I need the community's help. I've laid the groundwork for the nitty gritty, simple cloning. I have some feature ideas of my own, and now I want to hear from real multiboxers, the suggestions they'd want to give if given the opportunity to really affect change when it comes with a piece of software. Requests/ideas for features that are either not to one's liking or aren't offered in other software solutions aimed at multiboxing.

I also am looking for people who may want to seriously be involved in the creative process by way of becoming a tester, if so, I await your messages in my forum inbox. (Please include some reasoning as to why you'd want to test, your experience with multiboxing, and testing software.)

So here's the thread where you can post your thoughts, an opportunity to attempt to progress a multiboxing solution to best fit the needs of you and people like you.

SUGGESTIONS SO FAR:



Supernova09
Manage your CPUs and GPUs (Dev inquiry: Clock rates, core affinities, fan speeds?)
Program your input devices (Dev inquiry: polling rates, macros, keymaps?)
Use different game settings, such as graphics levels, per window - Virtualized Config files
Organize your game windows into a custom layout, with instant re-arrangement when switching windows.
Clone your mouse clicks and keystrokes to some or all windows, exactly as performed, including a visible mouse cursor
Ability to build my own custom widgets via an overlaid UI (Dev inquiry: Elaborate on the possible functions of these widgets.)
Ability to Map your keys for multiboxing with a highly configurable mapping system, not only for passing keystrokes but also for adjusting widgets, switching windows, modifying other mappings
Full support for many games and keep adding support for new games.
Sandboxing - ability to run multiple copies of games on the same system (Dev inquiry: What games specifically are you unable to run more than one copy of on the same system?)
In game macro support (especially for automated FTL)
Ualaa
White/black list of keys.
Round robin/cascading of input actions.
Networked support (Dev note: This is one of my main focuses, as well as keeping communications between clients over the wire encrypted for some protection against MITM. Trusting a piece of software to essentially log your keys, then broadcast them over your LAN. I want to do my best to ensure that using the software doesn't open up a vector of attack on your privacy. My thought was encrypting via AES using a shared key that must be input on all of your clients.)
Character "role grouping".
Mouse broadcast "regions".
Action target groups.
Video feeds.
Ughmahedhurtz
Accurate mouse scaling (Dev note: I had this idea myself, of how I would scale a mouse to conform to different resolutions)
Client focus/cursor swap (Dev inquiry: Are you meaning, to control a single selected remote PC's inputs from another, or to switch master to the PC currently receiving actual hardware input?)
Sub-client window surface broadcast (Dev inquiry: The client software itself, or the game window? Could you elaborate?)
Dynamic formation of hotkeys (Dev inquiry: Could to clarify what you had in mind a bit further?)
Verbose debug output.
Settings import/export and profiles.

[Khatovar]

Not looking to be negative, but we tend to get these topics every so often and honestly there's very little that people are looking for.

The real limitations pretty much stem from non-Windows multiboxing programs. Judging by the threads I've seen over the years, programs for Macs are pretty limited in their functionality leading people to go without all the bells and whistles or running BootCamp so they can use ISBoxer or something else with the features they want.

I'm not trying to discourage you, there's always room for more options. I just think people are going to be hard pressed to come up with ideas that aren't already part of currently available programs.

[HydraCoder]

...ideas that aren't already part of currently available programs.

*paid* programs.

[Jafula]

And free programs such as HotKeyNet...

[Svpernova09]

Like Khat said, we get these threads every so often. They come and go. I'm not trying to be negative...

Since you asked, here is what I'm going to need from you & your software:

Manage your CPUs and GPUs (video cards)
Program your input devices
Use different game settings, such as graphics levels, per window - Virtualized Config files
Organize your game windows into a custom layout, with instant re-arrangement when switching windows.
Clone your mouse clicks and keystrokes to some or all windows, exactly as performed, including a visible mouse cursor
Ability to build my own custom widgets via an overlaid UI
Ability to Map your keys for multiboxing with a highly configurable mapping system, not only for passing keystrokes but also for adjusting widgets, switching windows, modifying other mappings
Full support for many games and keep adding support for new games.
Sandboxing - ability to run multiple copies of games on the same system
In game macro support (especially for automated FTL)
I'm going to need all of this in a nice, small, easy to use package with wizards built in for various games to walk me through the process. I'm going to need tutorial videos for the advanced functions with in game demonstrations to show me the ins and outs of various features. I'm going to need a large community that is using your software that I can bounce ideas and troubleshooting off of. I'm going to need you to be available 7 days a week and around 20 hours a day in (preferably) IRC channel (or other live chat system) for live tech support or just to shoot the shit with you. I'm going to need you to constantly be working on your software to provide new features and functions I haven't even though of yet. I need you to spend time analyzing my crash logs and I need you to go buy a laptop with a crazy video card setup and get your software to work with it just because I asked why your product wouldn't work for my new laptop that has a crazy video card setup.

That should be enough to get you started. I look forward to your first build.

[ebony]

Like Khat said, we get these threads every so often. They come and go. I'm not trying to be negative...

Since you asked, here is what I'm going to need from you & your software:

Manage your CPUs and GPUs (video cards)
Program your input devices
Use different game settings, such as graphics levels, per window - Virtualized Config files
Organize your game windows into a custom layout, with instant re-arrangement when switching windows.
Clone your mouse clicks and keystrokes to some or all windows, exactly as performed, including a visible mouse cursor
Ability to build my own custom widgets via an overlaid UI
Ability to Map your keys for multiboxing with a highly configurable mapping system, not only for passing keystrokes but also for adjusting widgets, switching windows, modifying other mappings
Full support for many games and keep adding support for new games.
Sandboxing - ability to run multiple copies of games on the same system
In game macro support (especially for automated FTL)
I'm going to need all of this in a nice, small, easy to use package with wizards built in for various games to walk me through the process. I'm going to need tutorial videos for the advanced functions with in game demonstrations to show me the ins and outs of various features. I'm going to need a large community that is using your software that I can bounce ideas and troubleshooting off of. I'm going to need you to be available 7 days a week and around 20 hours a day in (preferably) IRC channel (or other live chat system) for live tech support or just to shoot the shit with you. I'm going to need you to constantly be working on your software to provide new features and functions I haven't even though of yet. I need you to spend time analyzing my crash logs and I need you to go buy a laptop with a crazy video card setup and get your software to work with it just because I asked why your product wouldn't work for my new laptop that has a crazy video card setup.

That should be enough to get you started. I look forward to your first build.


And all this for the big price off £0.000000000

[Lax]

Oh come on guys ;)

Welcome to the site, HydraCoder! We do welcome discussion on any legitimate new multiboxing tools, including the one you are developing -- don't let them get you down. We just get this exact thread many times, and the developer who was so excited at the start seems to disappear and nothing is released or there is just no reason to use it over existing free products like HotkeyNet or even Octopus (which I believe is no longer in development). So you have to understand the skepticism of the mods and of the community when we get another thread like this.

If this is something you want to work on, then absolutely: do it! If nothing else, you will might learn something new and, if you see it through, hopefully get the features you want out of it as well. And it's always fun to share something you made with others. What I would recommend, personally, is to get something working that solves the problem for you, and then offer it to other people who want the same problem solved, and go from there by adding on to your project. I've done it myself with free projects, like when I wrote EQWatcher for parsing EverQuest logs to make audio cues (text to speech for example) in real-time -- that feature set is coming to ISBoxer by the way -- and when I originally made EQPlayNice for freeing up some CPU/GPU when playing EQ1 it was free as well. Before that I wrote things (both free and paid) for text-based MUDs like MajorMUD and Tele-Arena. We might expect more out of this thread if you had a screenshot and/or a demo, or even source code (e.g. a google code project, sourceforge project, etc would go much further than a personal project without source code).

Anyway, the main problem you will run into getting started in this way is that people want a package that already works. Your solution has to do something unique, or do it in an easier way, in order for people to want to use it over the other free solutions that already work. You will also have to accept that your solution will only actually work for certain games. ISBoxer works for games that other solutions do not work for, because it is different and doesn't just send a message to the window to clone your keystrokes. Anyone can do that. (Actually I think that's why we get these threads :) )

What kind of features people look for in multiboxing are already pretty well established and you can find them by looking around at the existing solutions. You will have a really hard time getting new ideas from people, because they really have no idea what they want. What you need to find out is what people suck at doing. What is hard about multiboxing? That's the problem you need to solve with your own system. (And solve it within the EULA/ToS of the games you can support.)

I say all of this sincerely, hopefully I didn't come across as condescending. Best of luck :)

[Peli]

Good guy Lax.

Sees a possible competitor, posts constructive advice.

[Ualaa]

And all this for the big price off £0.000000000

The only software I'm aware of that does everything on Svper's list is InnerSpace/ISBoxer.
That is not a free software.




I cannot really see myself switching from IS Boxer to another product...
Unless it offered something amazing, which I could not get from ISBoxer.

That said...

I would consider this to the basic level:
- Key replication, between windows.
- Ability to white list or black list given keys.
- Toggle-able mouse broadcasting, between windows.
- Ability to display each window, picture in picture.
- Ability to swap a slave window, with the main window, so the newly focused window is large and the previous window is a small picture-in-picture window.
- Round-robin support, the ability to have Window A then Window B, then Window C do an action, one after the other.
- Networking between computers, so someone with three systems instead of one powerful system can box across their network.
Keyclone (www.solidice.com/keyclone) offers these features, and was (to my knowledge) the first widely used boxing program.
Rob gives excellent support, via email on his site, or via phone (listed on his site); he used to be more active on dual-boxing, but still lurks about.



Game Commander Pro, was a software (that is still around www.gamecommanderpro.com) developed by a boxer for personal use.
And then offered to the community as a boxing option.

It offered extensive documention, far exceeding that of any other software.

I remember it has groups.
Where you could have a toon act one way, while in the healer group.
And differently while within the DPS group.
Presumably, by setting a castsequence for each group.
You could toggle/move a character from one group to another, as part of your play.

I haven't used GCP, so don't really know what it can and cannot do.
But do remember that, as a feature that was mentioned.

Beyond the initial offering, the authors have not been on this site, or at least don't post as a software developer.




Hot Key Net (www.hotkeynet.com) is a free boxing software, which is script based.

Again, I don't really know too much of this software, but Freddie gives good support for it.
I'd rather have an interface, than write my own scripts...
And it seems to be the next strongest software to IS Boxer, offering more than other options.




Pwnboxer is likely the most advertised boxing option (www.pwnboxer.com); when someone is referred, the referring party makes cash.
Tim gives a decent level of support for his program on his site (www.multiboxing.com).

This, like IS Boxer and Game Commander Pro, is a subscription based product.
He advertises a year of support/updates, rather than calling it a subscription model.




IS Boxer is probably the top software option on the market.
So, if you were to look for features offered, this would be a great place to start with.

IS Boxer is a subscription based model, with extended subscription time when you refer someone.

Lax's level of support is phenomenal.
He is active here, on his site (www.isboxer.com), and on the IRC on the isboxer site.

I switched to IS Boxer (from Keyclone) for:
a) Instant swap from one window to another
b) Automatic (wizard generated, via an addon) FTL assist.
c) Real time mouse broadcasting.

Having played with the software, I personally consider several features essential and would not even consider something that did not include:
- Repeater Regions (an area of the screen, where mouse broadcasting to the desired target(s) is enabled while the mouse is in the area).
- Action Target Groups (so I can assign targets based on whatever criteria I desire).
- Virtualization of the Configuration File (so I can have variable settings from one client to another).
- A mapped key system for Keybinds (can send a keybind to Current Window, Other Windows, an Action Target Group), Macros (stored within the software, for easy editing or assigning to characters/teams), Pop Up Text Notifications, Adding/Removing toons from ATG's, activating/deactivating/toggling one mapped key on and another off (toggle how something works in real time), Steps (where something happens on Input 1, something else on input 2, etc).
- Probably others, but that's what stands out off of the top of my head.

I don't really take advantage of Click Bars that much...
They are graphical objects which when clicked in game, are the equivalent of activating a mapped key.
You can configure the graphic to change, so it can act like a toggle with a graphical representation of the option you have selected.

I'm using a Picture-in-picture layout, but if you use a "Stacked" window layout.
You can use Video Feeds, to view what the other windows see...
To track combo points or whatever you via a visual reference of your other toon...

[Ughmahedhurtz]

Lots of programs work fine on single PCs. What would be nice to see is something as configurable as ISBoxer but with better support for controlling clients across multiple PCs. Things like:

* accurate scaling of mouse broadcasting across PCs
* client focus and cursor-swap to the active client regardless of which PC it was on (integrated KM support a la InputDirector?)
* sub-client window surfaces broadcast to the master across the LAN

Other things:
* dynamic formation hotkey support
* good debug output so we can see exactly what the software thinks it is sending to each client
* good import/export of configurations

I think the biggest problem you'll have as a new entrant into this space is that we, as multiboxers and as an experienced multiboxing community, have very high expectations for stability, features and usability. ;) Good luck!

[HydraCoder]

Thanks a lot for all of the feedback, peoples. I guess I can't say that I'm not trying to predatorily compete with the big-time software solutions, but I don't feel as though I'd want to charge for my software (regardless of if I might benefit financially from it, I like free stuff, and I'd feel hypocritical to sell it), while still having the features that boxers want.

What I'm doing, essentially, is trying to challenge myself to put out a quality piece of software. But since I really am not as hardcore into multi-boxing as a lot of other people are, I honestly haven't really felt the need to have more than a simple cloning of keys across windows and physical machines (over a network).

I know that if I were to release such, it'd probably never get used, and it honestly isn't a challenge for me to write (The project is currently at the very alpha stage of cloning across windows/machines, without many options to boot, after an admittedly small time put toward it). So I wanted to gain some idea of inspiration to direct my effort from the community, and it looks like I got more than I could have hoped for. Looks like I have my hands full, and I'm excited for it.

I could put out a release of what I have, but honestly, it's not in a state in which I'd feel satisfied to do so. The UI isn't fleshed out as much as I'd like, and I haven't put it through the paces yet to make sure it doesn't get any hard lockups and the like.

Sorry that if I am "hey I'm gonna make a multiboxer" #2592394, but I'm sure that I won't be dropping off of the face of the earth just yet. This is also an opportunity to gain experience to further my career goals, my goal has been to turn a light hobby into a job position. (Granted, I did say this would be free, and I mean that.)

So again, thank you all so much for your suggestions, I appreciate your time and the thought you put into your replies. Despite if you thought to discourage me, it's only fed my creative juices and got my mind churning on the intricate systems that I'd have to weave. Brain candy for me!

(Oh, and I forgot to mention, I purchased keyclone a few years back, and have talked to Rob a few times myself, he's a great guy, and my aim is not to put these people out of business! This is a personal venture to advance my knowledge and experience.)

EDIT: There was so much information in the replies, I just wanted to give a tip of the hat to Svpernova09 for his reply. It made me smile. I'll see what I can do!

Also, I'm going to be sending some messages to the people who replied with a list of suggestions to see if I could get some elaboration on some of them. They sound interesting, but the short descriptions I don't think will aid me much in the way of fleshing some of them out.

[Ualaa]

Manage your CPUs and GPUs (Dev inquiry: Clock rates, core affinities, fan speeds?)

Which CPU runs which game?
Can you assign a specific graphics card to some clients, and have the others run on a different card?



Program your input devices (Dev inquiry: polling rates, macros, keymaps?)

Can you use fancy mouse and map/bind it to use the extra buttons?
Will you be able to use the 18 extra keys on a G15 Keyboard?



Ability to build my own custom widgets via an overlaid UI (Dev inquiry: Elaborate on the possible functions of these widgets.)


This is essentially the Click Bars, within IS Boxer.
You can import an image (I believe in .png format) or use text; clicking on the graphic/text in game, is the same as using the hotkey to activate the mapped key.



Sandboxing - ability to run multiple copies of games on the same system (Dev inquiry: What games specifically are you unable to run more than one copy of on the same system?)

Numerous games will not run boxed, unless they are the active window; the majority of the boxing options cannot run a large amount of games out there.
Everquest and Lord of the Rings Online, require a window to be in focus for you to use the mouse in that window.
Diablo III won't (without Sandboxing) allow more than one instance of the game to be run on the same system.
There are probably others like this.

IS Boxer basically runs on Inner Space, which is a layer between the game and the operating system.
So the game can be made to think each window has focus, when really only the current window has focus.
Not really sure how Lax has done this, but IS Boxer works with a multitude of games that no other boxing software supports.

[ebony]

Thanks a lot for all of the feedback, peoples. I guess I can't say that I'm not trying to predatorily compete with the big-time software solutions, but I don't feel as though I'd want to charge for my software (regardless of if I might benefit financially from it, I like free stuff, and I'd feel hypocritical to sell it), while still having the features that boxers want.

What I'm doing, essentially, is trying to challenge myself to put out a quality piece of software. But since I really am not as hardcore into multi-boxing as a lot of other people are, I honestly haven't really felt the need to have more than a simple cloning of keys across windows and physical machines (over a network).

I know that if I were to release such, it'd probably never get used, and it honestly isn't a challenge for me to write (The project is currently at the very alpha stage of cloning across windows/machines, without many options to boot, after an admittedly small time put toward it). So I wanted to gain some idea of inspiration to direct my effort from the community, and it looks like I got more than I could have hoped for. Looks like I have my hands full, and I'm excited for it.

I could put out a release of what I have, but honestly, it's not in a state in which I'd feel satisfied to do so. The UI isn't fleshed out as much as I'd like, and I haven't put it through the paces yet to make sure it doesn't get any hard lockups and the like.

Sorry that if I am "hey I'm gonna make a multiboxer" #2592394, but I'm sure that I won't be dropping off of the face of the earth just yet. This is also an opportunity to gain experience to further my career goals, my goal has been to turn a light hobby into a job position. (Granted, I did say this would be free, and I mean that.)

So again, thank you all so much for your suggestions, I appreciate your time and the thought you put into your replies. Despite if you thought to discourage me, it's only fed my creative juices and got my mind churning on the intricate systems that I'd have to weave. Brain candy for me!

(Oh, and I forgot to mention, I purchased keyclone a few years back, and have talked to Rob a few times myself, he's a great guy, and my aim is not to put these people out of business! This is a personal venture to advance my knowledge and experience.)

EDIT: There was so much information in the replies, I just wanted to give a tip of the hat to Svpernova09 for his reply. It made me smile. I'll see what I can do!

Also, I'm going to be sending some messages to the people who replied with a list of suggestions to see if I could get some elaboration on some of them. They sound interesting, but the short descriptions I don't think will aid me much in the way of fleshing some of them out.


I would go on to the line off pwnboxer/keyclone software its simple and if there was something out there like that but free then am sure many would use it and does a great job. i love isboxer but sometimes beta and
Pt's can crash isboxer a lot so i normally go to keyclone but it jut feels out off date with the window mangent and other cool stuff like that.


so what a saying is Keep it simple easy to use nothing to much on the system nice easy UI and a good window manger and add network support and you have a new bit off software you can still make money off free software. a lot off the free software out there does not have the UI to get the new boxer's that does not wont to go though the long road off setting up isboxer or pay for it.

[zenga]

I second what ebony says. There is little point in trying to make a free / open source (?) copy of isboxer. ISboxer has amazing features, but I think (just like most software) only a very small amount of the users use all the advanced stuff. So I definitely believe that there is a niche for a simple tool that does good what it promises. Keymaps, window swapping & mouse broadcasting, ftl jamba integration (with a wizard) are what most people use imo.

[ElectronDF]

I am one of the multiple computer boxers (lots of people box on one computer). I would have to have network support.
I would like, if you are too awesome to have a mixed PC/Mac support. But I don't need all the bells and whistles. I don't need multiple windows on a computer, I don't need macro integration, I don't need any sandboxing or CPU/GPU options. For the Mac/PC part, I would just need to have the Macs receive keys.

Now that Blizzard has changed WOW to not do round robins, I have to do that outside in my key broadcasting software. I use HotKeyNet. That would be pretty important.
It has been nice to start WOW on the other machines through a keystroke. I guess being able to run a shell/command line command would be nice.
It would be good to have a way to see, 1) What key sequence did you push "You last pressed: CTRL-ALT-G", 2) Did that sequence get sent to other computers/windows, "Computer 2 received your keys", "Window WOW2 was not available", 3) Be able to not blow up if a computer/window is not running (like if only 2 out of computers/windows used).
For networked computers, be able to use computer name instead of IP address (in case of DHCP).
For mice, support for button4/5 (thumb buttons on side of mouse). I don't really require click broadcasting. I know others would want it bad. But I would require button broadcasting.

I have used HotKeyNet since the beginning. I really like the programmer. Great support, nice forum for support (here and there). I like that it is free. I like that there were features added. I would suggest starting off small and work your way up. For me, something working is better than promises. I really only box in WOW.

[Bollwerk]

If you can make your new software both powerful/feature rich AND simple/easy to use, then you'll likely have a winning combo.
Easier said than done though.
I love ISBoxer, but my biggest complaint is that it's not simple/easy to use.
Granted, there is a wizard to get you started, but anything beyond that requires a substantial time investment to learn and understand.

[Lyonheart]

Somthing even more dummy proof. Ill give an example of what i would like to see. In a creation wizzard.

1st step Enter your game >>..WoW

2nd step Build your team

slot one? Name>> Paladin. what spec >.PvE Prot. What Alt spec >. PvP Holy
Slot two Name >> Shaman. What spec> PvE Resto. ALt spec>> PvP Elemental
Slot three Name>> Shaman. What spec> PvE Elemental. Alts spec PvP Elemental
Slot 4 etc.........

Now when i load the new team. it will have hotkeys AND macros built based on what the "popular" builds are for those specs. In game i can change hotkeys to my liking or use the default ones the sofware created for me. I can also build quick macros and hotkeys in an in game interface via drag and drop/shift clicking on spells. The choice could be " choose type of macro. ie /castsequence or /cast. It could add reset times..and other conditions via click boxes. ( these macros would be created inside the software, not the game, but you could do it from inside the game)

That would be my dream addition to ISboxer btw 8) but something that no software has.

[HydraCoder]

I am one of the multiple computer boxers (lots of people box on one computer). I would have to have network support.
I would like, if you are too awesome to have a mixed PC/Mac support. But I don't need all the bells and whistles. I don't need multiple windows on a computer, I don't need macro integration, I don't need any sandboxing or CPU/GPU options. For the Mac/PC part, I would just need to have the Macs receive keys.

Now that Blizzard has changed WOW to not do round robins, I have to do that outside in my key broadcasting software. I use HotKeyNet. That would be pretty important.
It has been nice to start WOW on the other machines through a keystroke. I guess being able to run a shell/command line command would be nice.
It would be good to have a way to see, 1) What key sequence did you push "You last pressed: CTRL-ALT-G", 2) Did that sequence get sent to other computers/windows, "Computer 2 received your keys", "Window WOW2 was not available", 3) Be able to not blow up if a computer/window is not running (like if only 2 out of computers/windows used).
For networked computers, be able to use computer name instead of IP address (in case of DHCP).
For mice, support for button4/5 (thumb buttons on side of mouse). I don't really require click broadcasting. I know others would want it bad. But I would require button broadcasting.

I have used HotKeyNet since the beginning. I really like the programmer. Great support, nice forum for support (here and there). I like that it is free. I like that there were features added. I would suggest starting off small and work your way up. For me, something working is better than promises. I really only box in WOW.

I'd love to put this on a Mac, as well, but I do not own one (nor the funds to get one), and then I'd have to learn how Macs do windowing and input, since right now I'm using WinApi libraries. So I don't see that being a foreseeable possibility, unless someone wants to send me a Mac (or I can somehow legally use Mac in a virtual machine?)

As for round robins, that was already going to be a feature from the start, as well as launching the game window. I have an old program that I made for myself to manage my multiple accounts before the inclusion of Battle.net being tied to one email (it automatically opened the game, input my account/password in 2-channel obfuscated fashion, etc. So I have some code for that already built.)

Verbose event logging is already in the basic client (state changes, keystrokes, etc), and I plan on making it a lot nicer (Sorting by message type, some richtext formatting, etc)

Hostname support is already included with the networking library, so no worries with DHCP and having to fiddle with your IP address. (Did I also mention that communications across the wire will be encrypted with a shared password and AES, for your security?)

I'm debating on whether or not to release the basic client (Just simple networked keystroke cloning), as a start-up point, and then release further updates as I add features, or have a number of requested features in before releasing, eh community?

I'm really excited about the feedback, thanks a lot guys, you've given me a lot to do, and it's really fun!

While working on some code for one of the features, I started a side-project, whipped it up in short amount of time last night, to make windows borderless. I made another post about this in this forum topic, so check it out! (If you wanted/needed borderless windows, that is, I believe a lot of solutions already do this).

[Norrin]

You can have the source to MultiLaunchBox if you want a base for a simple Mac application.
I was going to look into making MLB available on the pc with the ability to talk to Mac (MLB is already network ready for Macs using Bonjour).

But with ISBoxer being so awesome, I gave up on all Mac coding and just bootcamped to Win 7.

If you google Mac Virtual Machine (or something like that), you find information on creating a Mac OS VS on PC.
I think you need a legal copy of Snow Leopard though. Not sure if Lion works or not. Since I no longer have a mac desktop for development I use the VM for playing around with.

[HydraCoder]

You can have the source to MultiLaunchBox if you want a base for a simple Mac application.
I was going to look into making MLB available on the pc with the ability to talk to Mac (MLB is already network ready for Macs using Bonjour).

But with ISBoxer being so awesome, I gave up on all Mac coding and just bootcamped to Win 7.

If you google Mac Virtual Machine (or something like that), you find information on creating a Mac OS VS on PC.
I think you need a legal copy of Snow Leopard though. Not sure if Lion works or not. Since I no longer have a mac desktop for development I use the VM for playing around with.

Sounds good, however, what's it written in? If it's Objective-C then It'll probably not help me very much. I primarily write in C#, with a little bit of C++. It'd have to be something like Mono C#, which if I were to go Mac support, would be my first choice in making the project cross platform. The main issue is really how to work Mac's UI, as I'm sure it's a completely different beast than WinApi calls and P/invoke.

[Norrin]

Yes MLB is in mostly obj-c with some c++.
You could probably get away with Mono & C++ though.

[JackBurton]

I've only used ISboxer so i really cant testify if other software solutions are better than it. I'm gona appolgize ahead of time because i may erk some folks. I love you community but i do have some gripes.

Plugins
ISBoxer works great right out of the box. But only for simple World Content. The biggest thing i struggle with is incorporating the community based improvements into is-boxer. Currently the primary way someone share's their innovation and breakthroughs is by doing it through a lengthy step by step worded explanation. Implementing the instructions is sometimes problematic because if one of the many steps is not fully understood or carried out correctly what we end up with is something that doesnt work right if it works at all. Making many people frustrated.

RTFM
ISBoxer's manual is somewhat convoluted. I understand you'r pretty much an indie developer working out of your garage though. Teaching my not be one of your strongest points. You have video tutorials that contradict the current release. Although those videos provide some good inspiration points they may be confusing to a noob. At least reencode them explaining that they are obsolete and should only be used for certain purposes.

Community Wiki/Guides
Some OP's dont update their front page threads. Good stuff is placed in hyjacked threads and not started in a new thread. (http://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/30511-Adv-Healing-w-ISBoxer-Repeater-Regions-HealBot/page4?highlight=click+based+healing) I dont understand why the latest advanced stuff is more talked about, vbloged about, stickies etc.. alot of the videos are geared towards beginner to mid-ranged skilled boxers.There is only a tiny fraction of people making quality guides, mega threads, video tutorials, and wiki's like Liquid's awesome wiki or wowwiki (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Main_Page) Alot of good stuff is buried and forgotten (http://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/32720-ISBoxer-Multi-Mode-FTL-Targeting). People like Ualaa, Mirai, Khatovar and many others strive to keep the site going. For one reason or another these people are gona stop writing guides. They may play another game, spend more time on work family etc... Without much recognition It must be difficult at times to keep the momentum.

Macro key combo conflicts
Sometimes i feel like a beta tester. I've been almost religiously doing my homework on the db forums. Incorperating macros into ISboxer can be a headache. Lately (as in the last two months) i've been spending more time setting up isboxer, testing it and going back to the drawing board. and starting over again. ISboxer has a built in keycombo duplicate catcher but its doesnt seem to catch everything because sometimes my macros dont work or when i hit one hot key an ability i dont want fires off. Sometimes one change i make in isboxer i make today will break another function in isboxer that i wont realize is broken hours days or even weeks later. Sometimes the only way to fix issues like this is to totally start over from scratch because the whole profile is corrupted. ISBoxer XML KeyMap Parser v4.0.1xlsm (https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B_FdyRHSk1kLSmlWcUNJelJha0k) was just introduced to the public a week or two ago. I just realised it says version 4.xx. Why hasnt Lax incorperated something like this into his project that is much more comprehensive than his system. It would be nice if ISboxer picked keycombos for you based on what it see's at the least amount of key-conflict based on all varables FTL modifiers, Blizzard binds, Addon Binds, OS key-combos, and so on. maybe it cant do that because if it was looking at your computers files it would be like violating my privacy but i guess i could waiver this when installing or select an advance installation option if i didnt want that option at install.

Macro building
There is so much unbelievable power in macros. While ISboxer supports macros it doesnt help you build them. http://www.macroexplain.com/ Fitcairn's macro explainer is great. It would be even awesome if there was a program that did it backwards. I mean it would be great if you could tell have a program spit out a script/macro based on the variables that you select. Aragent furthered (http://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/42878-Multi-Step-Isboxer-Project-Update?highlight=aragent) the work Mercurio started (http://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/32633-Mecurio-s-Cataclysm-Multiboxing-Macros) but the stable is not released yet. Or maybe it is and its buried under other threads.

[traedoril]

The main thing I would like to see in a newer program is what gamecommanderpro does about keymapping. On GCP you literally get a keyboard and you can click which keys get sent to all toons/ some toons/ one toon. I like the way ISB lets you map keys to do different things but I use every key on the left side of the key board for binds and its a serious pain going through and making a key that sends the same exact key to every single character.

Ex:

I use A, D, Z, X, C, V, F, G, R, T, Y, the shift and ctrl equivalent to all of these, and I have a razer naga that uses all the number pad keys. I bind pretty much every key the same (all my interupts are f3, aggro drops are f8, mount is f7, Trinkets and big dmg CD's naga button 5 etc...)

My only problem with ISBoxer is I had to setup all of these keys manually and it took quite a long time. GCP software is far inferior to ISB but I loved the keyboard that I just clicked the key and clicked who to send it too and was done.

[Lax]

Macro key combo conflicts
Sometimes i feel like a beta tester. I've been almost religiously doing my homework on the db forums. Incorperating macros into ISboxer can be a headache. Lately (as in the last two months) i've been spending more time setting up isboxer, testing it and going back to the drawing board. and starting over again. ISboxer has a built in keycombo duplicate catcher but its doesnt seem to catch everything because sometimes my macros dont work or when i hit one hot key an ability i dont want fires off. Sometimes one change i make in isboxer i make today will break another function in isboxer that i wont realize is broken hours days or even weeks later. Sometimes the only way to fix issues like this is to totally start over from scratch because the whole profile is corrupted. ISBoxer XML KeyMap Parser v4.0.1xlsm (https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B_FdyRHSk1kLSmlWcUNJelJha0k) was just introduced to the public a week or two ago. I just realised it says version 4.xx. Why hasnt Lax incorperated something like this into his project that is much more comprehensive than his system. It would be nice if ISboxer picked keycombos for you based on what it see's at the least amount of key-conflict based on all varables FTL modifiers, Blizzard binds, Addon Binds, OS key-combos, and so on. maybe it cant do that because if it was looking at your computers files it would be like violating my privacy but i guess i could waiver this when installing or select an advance installation option if i didnt want that option at install.
JackBurton, I can't count the number of times I've tried to get you to do your macros differently. (Okay, I probably can count them, but it's several times.)

I just went and counted your macros from the last config you sent me and it's something like 140, and you have every single one of them applying to all of your characters. You've got duplicate macros that you don't need, like 8 that are exactly the same but with different Action Target Groups specified inside the macro. That's a bunch of key combos you could free up just by sending the key combo to a different ATG (so as to tell someone to need and someone else to greed, etc) instead of hardcoding it into the wow macro. Why not one macro for need and one macro for greed? Most people wouldn't even have considered the possibility of making a ton of different macros for that. ;) In a world where you couldn't send a key for need to one window and a key for greed to a different window, sure...

I can pick key combos for you because it's really not that difficult... I just have a limited amount of time to spend developing and creating documentation and posting helpful information to people who want to know how to do something specific and answering questions from guys who have too many wow macros and want to figure out why it's busted, etc. And, well, this one only applies to WoW. :) I am planning on hiring soon though.


My only problem with ISBoxer is I had to setup all of these keys manually and it took quite a long time. GCP software is far inferior to ISB but I loved the keyboard that I just clicked the key and clicked who to send it too and was done.
Sounds like you (traedoril) didn't use Many New Mapped Keys (or, now, Mapped Key Wizard). http://isboxer.com/wiki/WoW:Quick_Start_Guide#Quickly_add_many_hotkeys.2C_ optionally_with_auto-assist -- the Mapped Key Wizard is easier than the old (linked) method. If you don't have the wizard, you can get it by updating through Help->About.



Edit: Oh and all of this feedback is great. thanks guys. ;)

[HydraCoder]

Thanks for side-jacking my thread, Lax :P jk

[traedoril]

Sounds like you (traedoril) didn't use Many New Mapped Keys (or, now, Mapped Key Wizard). http://isboxer.com/wiki/WoW:Quick_Start_Guide#Quickly_add_many_hotkeys.2C_ optionally_with_auto-assist -- the Mapped Key Wizard is easier than the old (linked) method. If you don't have the wizard, you can get it by updating through Help->About.
;)

I have been with ISB for a year now I, When I set my keys up that handy feature wasnt availible. I wasn't trying to knock your software lax just giving the new guy some feedback.

[HydraCoder]

Yes MLB is in mostly obj-c with some c++.
You could probably get away with Mono & C++ though.

I'll take a look at it, surely. I'd be interested in just how Mac's system calls are compared to windows.

[Norrin]

I'll take a look at it, surely. I'd be interested in just how Mac's system calls are compared to windows.

You can find the source here: http://www.fivemasted.com/Dualboxing/Mlbsource.zip

Its the not greatest of code. I was doing it mainly for me, so I didn't really comment it, or try to make it pretty at all.

[HydraCoder]

Interesting to see some of the system calls, thanks Norrin. Right now I'm working on "video feeds". Those seemed the most interesting to me, just a bit hung up on the DX hooking and what not. I'd like to use the same methods as FRAPS, snag a rectangle as a source, etc, just not as pervasive :D

The UI is getting a bit of cleanup at the moment, so that I can actually throw something at someone and let them give it a whirl, and not be so embarrassed about the pre-alpha state of the UI :D

[HydraCoder]

Been fleshing out some more of the UI and features after working hard on researching how I'm going to do video feeds, here's a sneak peak! (Warning, pre-alpha UI design, be nice!)
626627

[ebony]

nice to see your still going at it :)

[Mokoi]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't care about money... the cost of multiboxing software is VASTLY less than the cost of... multiboxing!

Make software better than ISboxer, and you have my money. I'd pay a LOT more than I currently do for software that's easier to use.

I don't use Hotkeynet because.. i cant program, and I have no experience with it. It's not worth the hassle of learning complicated software for free. ISboxer is cheap as hell, and it's a bit easier to use.

NOW, as a long-time boxer.. even pre-dating these forums, I'd like to see some not-so-simple changes:

I mix and match teams a lot. I create new teams, and I find it a pain in the ASS to do so. I'd like to see a software package that does the following:

Since I know LAX is following this thread, I want to first say .. Lax is a genius, and he is the man.. I love him. I have never found someone so dedicated, and who rushes to support his product. That being said, there are (as always) places that I think need improvement, and that's not to say he couldn't do it, but he's off solving much more difficult problems than these, and giving us functionality i cant even imagine until it's downloaded in my software automatically :)

(I understand some of these might be out of the scope of possibility, and I apologize in advance, I am not aware of the limitations)

1. Better GUI than ISboxer.

I would like to see an interface that is intuitive, and powerful (i know.. i know). I want to be able to drag and drop icons of characters, organized by account, class, level, etc to easily match the characters I want to play in the software without the hassle of having to first create new characters, or use the wizard (in ISboxer) to add the characters and then to delete a team i just made so I can use the characters in a team i copied because all my settings are already setup in a different team (hotkeys to switch, follow commands etc).

2. add-on integration.

I'm not sure if it's possible, but I would like (and pay for) software that keeps my addon preferences for commonly used addons for multiboxing available on all installs, and to all characters i play. ie: I'd like to start a new team, log in for the first time, and hit my mini-map button for (boxer program name here) and then click on a preset profile for addons, interface, etc. So my grid acts the same on all toons if I want them to. Addon's often allow this, but they are install and account-bound, which is more hassle for setting up a new team.

3. Window swapping from other computers. As Ughma said, I would also like to swap the windows on my second PC around. Not from PC2 to PC1 or anything, but certainly I'd like to be able to hit a hotkey from PC1 and have PC2 swap a window. I haven't had this working in ISboxer yet, not sure about the limitations.

[Apps]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't care about money... the cost of multiboxing software is VASTLY less than the cost of... multiboxing!

Make software better than ISboxer, and you have my money. I'd pay a LOT more than I currently do for software that's easier to use.

I don't use Hotkeynet because.. i cant program, and I have no experience with it. It's not worth the hassle of learning complicated software for free. ISboxer is cheap as hell, and it's a bit easier to use.

NOW, as a long-time boxer.. even pre-dating these forums, I'd like to see some not-so-simple changes:

I mix and match teams a lot. I create new teams, and I find it a pain in the ASS to do so. I'd like to see a software package that does the following:

Since I know LAX is following this thread, I want to first say .. Lax is a genius, and he is the man.. I love him. I have never found someone so dedicated, and who rushes to support his product. That being said, there are (as always) places that I think need improvement, and that's not to say he couldn't do it, but he's off solving much more difficult problems than these, and giving us functionality i cant even imagine until it's downloaded in my software automatically :)

(I understand some of these might be out of the scope of possibility, and I apologize in advance, I am not aware of the limitations)

1. Better GUI than ISboxer.

I would like to see an interface that is intuitive, and powerful (i know.. i know). I want to be able to drag and drop icons of characters, organized by account, class, level, etc to easily match the characters I want to play in the software without the hassle of having to first create new characters, or use the wizard (in ISboxer) to add the characters and then to delete a team i just made so I can use the characters in a team i copied because all my settings are already setup in a different team (hotkeys to switch, follow commands etc).

2. add-on integration.

I'm not sure if it's possible, but I would like (and pay for) software that keeps my addon preferences for commonly used addons for multiboxing available on all installs, and to all characters i play. ie: I'd like to start a new team, log in for the first time, and hit my mini-map button for (boxer program name here) and then click on a preset profile for addons, interface, etc. So my grid acts the same on all toons if I want them to. Addon's often allow this, but they are install and account-bound, which is more hassle for setting up a new team.

3. Window swapping from other computers. As Ughma said, I would also like to swap the windows on my second PC around. Not from PC2 to PC1 or anything, but certainly I'd like to be able to hit a hotkey from PC1 and have PC2 swap a window. I haven't had this working in ISboxer yet, not sure about the limitations.


I second all of what Dan wrote.

I'd see new software as an advantage if it can do the following.
1. operate and be as versatile as ISBoxer, or PWNBoxer.
2. Support MAC and PC separately, and jointly.
3. +1 more from Dans number 2 above, and say, make this automatic, with few clicks and checkmarks at the start of a new team wizard... I.e. New team Wizard-> label and identify team -> add-ons to apply as character defaults -> window layout... -> go!
4. remote in to another PC, and use multiplexer from my own pc, launch a wow client from remote pc, and control it via my multiplexer. subsequently, I wouldnt have to operate the multiplexer software or even install it (perma) on the remote pc.

(The main reason for number 4. is 90% of the questions from this site. How do I do ..."x"? Well, if we could remote in, use our own stuff, and take control, troubleshooting much faster... and two fold by being able to load up a friends toon, to run with us, if he/she is the counter part to one RaF, and is currently unavailable)

Also, to note: Ive tried several software packages before settling on ISBoxer. All be it, I will continue to use ISBoxer, I am not opposed to testing and operating a second software. I am not a hardware boxer, but if I could put software on the family laptop, my sons computers, mine, and my wifes, then run a team with as quick a response time as if it were a single PC, I dunno anyone who wouldnt like that.

[Khatovar]

4. remote in to another PC, and use multiplexer from my own pc, launch a wow client from remote pc, and control it via my multiplexer. subsequently, I wouldnt have to operate the multiplexer software or even install it (perma) on the remote pc.

(The main reason for number 4. is 90% of the questions from this site. How do I do ..."x"? Well, if we could remote in, use our own stuff, and take control, troubleshooting much faster... and two fold by being able to load up a friends toon, to run with us, if he/she is the counter part to one RaF, and is currently unavailable)


That is a scary idea. It's bad enough when people don't want to do any of the work themselves, it'd be nothing but headaches if people actually expect us to do it all for them. Not to mention the utter nightmare that comes with the ability to take control of a complete stranger's computer. Dual-boxing.com hacked me. Dual-boxing.com stole my account. Dual-boxing.com stripped my toons. And then you get in to the people who actually DO want you to do EVERYTHING for them, including leveling them. All of a sudden, we're exactly the same as wesellgold-thenstealyouraccount.com.

And account sharing is a use violation in most games, so no running someone else's account, friend or no.

[Ualaa]

I've had a dozen or so people offer to pay me, if I would remotely log into their system and set them up.
Never figured an amount, because while I'm happy to give a bit of support, there are a lot of starting resources... and I'd rather play the game.

[ebony]

I've had a dozen or so people offer to pay me, if I would remotely log into their system and set them up.
Never figured an amount, because while I'm happy to give a bit of support, there are a lot of starting resources... and I'd rather play the game.


This is what are good friend on the other site said he wonted to setup. but a lot said it was a bad plan then and still is.

If the player can not setup a simple software then mutiliboxing should not be for them! we get to much s**t as it is!

[Apps]

@ Khat, I totally get what you're comment is about. The more I think about it, it does make sense to exclude that.

If its any consolation, the "why" I mentioned this, is for two reasons. 1. My son and his friend use RaF. But his friend is rarely on, so hes missing out on a lot. 2. I get asked a lot (similarly to Ualaa) to log into vent, or use a live internet meeting point to share desktops and help troubleshoot.

At the time I didn't believe it was too much risk of reputation if we remote in and cleaned up or troubleshoot, yet I assumed people would be online watching what was done, and or partially controlling themselves.

I'll likely keep doing what Im doing via www.gotomeeting.com, to help troubleshoot.


@ Ebony, Lets be a little honest with ourselves. None of the multiplexer softwares are simple. Some have longer learning curves than others. I have NEVER seen a first time boxer load up software and be as experienced as the rest of us.


Even with quick wizards, there are still things that must be done separately and on a case by case basis. Granted thats what this site and community is for, yet, Ive always been a person to challenge the norm. As I would expect most boxers are, given the very nature of what we do.

[d0z3rr]

The main problem I had with Isboxer was it had a hard to understand interface, non-intuitive. I had an easier time learning html and tsql than when I switched from keyclone to isboxer (I didn't fully switch, still used Keyclone for broadcasting to avoid the headache of setting it up in Isboxer). I watched Mirai's feeds video at least 3 times before I tried to set it up in Isboxer and it still took several trial and errors before I got it working right. Setting up the regions and assigning Wows to areas of your monitors seemed far more complex than how I did it in Keyclone.

Another limitation of Isboxer is the video feeds couldn't span multiple computers. So if I wanted to multibox on Eve, I would need to run all my Eves on my main, when I used to split them between two computers. That is why I never went back to Eve after I quit WoW, and instead waited for D3 to come out.

I haven't multiboxed in several months, so I haven't used isboxer since then, so this all may be fixed by now with a brand new interface :)

[Ualaa]

The biggest difference between KC and IS Boxer, if you're switching...

KC is straight broadcasting of keys.
Sure you can whitelist keys to only broadcast, or blacklist keys to not broadcast, but the basic broadcasting is... push a key, and everyone gets that key.

IS Boxer has two broadcast modes.
You can Repeater/Broadcast, which is just like KC.
But you also have Mapped Keys (Keymaps are groups of mapped keys).



There are wizards to get a basic set up.
And there is a bit of a learning curve, if you want to go beyond that.

Top left pane is your overview.
Bottom left is select the specific thing.
Bottom right is edit that specific thing.
Pretty much.

If you play with the options, or read through the mapped key section of my guide, you get a basic understanding of how the interface works.
And should be comfortable, messing around with it.
You can save the profile, and clear/reset a profile...
It's a good idea to save your profile periodically anyway...



While video feeds won't span multiple computers...
There's nothing else that will either.

So they're the best option you have, out of any boxing software...

IS Boxer will do Eve as well as KC, from a windows layout point of view...

[Ughmahedhurtz]

The biggest difference between KC and IS Boxer, if you're switching...

KC is straight broadcasting of keys.
Sure you can whitelist keys to only broadcast, or blacklist keys to not broadcast, but the basic broadcasting is... push a key, and everyone gets that key.
Keyclone has round-robin and per-client translational keymap support as well. It is most definitely not just "straight broadcasting."

[Ualaa]

As far as broadcasting goes...

If you turn on Repeater/Broadcast in IS Boxer.
And if you don't use "Mute" in Keyclone.

They function extremely similar to each other.

You can round-robin, in either one.
You can whitelist certain keys, so only those fire off to other windows.
You can blacklist certain keys, so those keys never broadcast to other windows.
But I'm referring to the system of... you push "a" and every window receives a push of "a".

That was what I meant, by the one broadcast mode of Keyclone, compared to IS Boxer having two modes.




In IS Boxer, you also have mapped keys.
Which are configured hotkeys that do things, sometimes in the game but also to your configuration.

Keyclone has Hotstrings, where you push a key in one window and it does something different in the other windows.
You can accomplish that with a Keystroke Action, which is a type of mapped key.

But mapped keys are quite different from the straight broadcasting (the category).

You can have a spam key that does three things.
- Action A
- Action B
- Action C
With Action B disabled by default and Action C active by default.
Then have a different mapped key that toggles B and C, so one is always on and the other always off.
The mapped key, altering how the game plays... ie, which keys are the output for the same unchanging input... is different from the type 1 - everything broadcasting mode.