Is the "popsicle stick" trick legal in SWTOR?

[Atrocious]

I've tried googling it, and I searched here on the forum, but I cannot seem to find anyone saying they have gotten confirmation about the legality of this technique. So apologies if it has been answered in some other thread. I do see that Mercbeast uses this technique if I am not mistaken in his Mercbeast framework post.

I have found posts on the forum where people state that they have made multikey macros for healing(press on button and that selects a party member and casts heal), and since those threads are allowed to live and no moderator has posted in those threads that this is illegal, I am tempted to say it's legal.

When I was multiboxing in WOW I used this trick intensivly, ie. I press "1" and 1,2 and 3 get sent to the game window at the same time just as it would if I glued a Popsicle stick to my keyboard. In WOW I'm pretty sure there was a blue post saying it was legal to do.

I'm not planning on multiboxing in SWTOR, atleast not yet, but there are cases where this technique would add benefit to solo play, but I am reluctant to try it out in fear of being banned.

Anyone got an official answer to this? Asking here because I know I'll get an answer here before my ticket gets answered. :)

[Apps]

"... popsicle stick trick..."

I thought I was a dummy for a second. I googled this. I still dont get it.

I see you have an ISBoxer badge. You dont have to multibox to use ISBoxer. You can use the software to help fine tune your dps... is that what your asking? Surely your not actually asking about taping a Popsicle stick to your keyboard... right??

[Khatovar]

Popsicle stick or penny trick just means using a stick, or penny or using keycaps to bind two or more keys together so you press one and multiple keys get pressed/sent. It's the argument used to justify sending multiple, non-concurrent inputs at one time.

He doesn't want to glue stuff to his keyboard, he just wants to know if this "spray and pray" method as I call it is something that they detect and ban for so he can it through ISBoxer for solo play.

As far as answers, I posted what they call an answer in the Multiboxing Allowed thread earlier. We've only seen one post about boxing and bans come up here and there likely had nothing to do with ISBoxer or the Framework and was likely due to other stuff.

[Atrocious]

Khatovar got it right. I don't want to multibox SWTOR yet. I do multibox in WOW tho, and use that technique there(when mutiboxing and not). Got the idea from Mosq(sp?) and his DK manifesto.

I saw Khatovars post in the other thread, but the answer Khatovar got was so vague I don't dare to interpret that, also not sure what Khatovar asked about.

For me the question boils down to what is legal or not, not if I get banned for it. Since I won't do it if it's illegal but they will never catch me. So whether they can ban me or not is not question.

I'll update if I get a clearer answer from CS about this. Hopefully I won't get an equally vague answer.

[Vecter]

Khatovar got it right. I don't want to multibox SWTOR yet. I do multibox in WOW tho, and use that technique there(when mutiboxing and not). Got the idea from Mosq(sp?) and his DK manifesto.

I saw Khatovars post in the other thread, but the answer Khatovar got was so vague I don't dare to interpret that, also not sure what Khatovar asked about.

For me the question boils down to what is legal or not, not if I get banned for it. Since I won't do it if it's illegal but they will never catch me. So whether they can ban me or not is not question.

I'll update if I get a clearer answer from CS about this. Hopefully I won't get an equally vague answer.

First off how on earth are they going to know that you are using any type of method to push multiple keys at once? I can slam my hand down on my keyboard and if they somehow see this they either have a secret camera or some other type of utility to detect this. Its just not going to happen.

Secondly boxing has not (as Khat stated) gotten anyone banned. If you do stupid shit against any TOS like automation, botting, harassment, etc. yes that will lead to you getting your ass slapped, but that has nothing to do with boxing.

People need to stop being so paranoid about multiboxing as it has been going on for years in multiple mmos without issue.

[Apps]

Popsicle stick or penny trick just means using a stick, or penny or using keycaps to bind two or more keys together so you press one and multiple keys get pressed/sent. It's the argument used to justify sending multiple, non-concurrent inputs at one time.

He doesn't want to glue stuff to his keyboard, he just wants to know if this "spray and pray" method as I call it is something that they detect and ban for so he can it through ISBoxer for solo play.

As far as answers, I posted what they call an answer in the Multiboxing Allowed thread earlier. We've only seen one post about boxing and bans come up here and there likely had nothing to do with ISBoxer or the Framework and was likely due to other stuff.


Khatovar got it right. I don't want to multibox SWTOR yet. I do multibox in WOW tho, and use that technique there(when mutiboxing and not). Got the idea from Mosq(sp?) and his DK manifesto.

I saw Khatovars post in the other thread, but the answer Khatovar got was so vague I don't dare to interpret that, also not sure what Khatovar asked about.

For me the question boils down to what is legal or not, not if I get banned for it. Since I won't do it if it's illegal but they will never catch me. So whether they can ban me or not is not question.

I'll update if I get a clearer answer from CS about this. Hopefully I won't get an equally vague answer.


Roger that. Thanks for the clarification.

Whew! for thinking someone was about to tape a stick to their keyboard. heh, its silly now that I thought that.

Im currently using this method. Mosg2 and I speak often and sometimes nightly about tips n tricks, and "how to's". Id say, Ive been using this method for about 3 weeks. One thing we did was to ensure whichever key presses are done, don't have the same global cooldown, and thus "self-time" themselves. does that make sense the way I explained it? ... anyway, we also made sure we use keybinds of keys that are right next to one another. Specifically so that if... and I do mean IF, it is every questioned, I could easily turn off the Keymap Set and just do the same thing as pressing (3) buttons at the same time. The result would be the same... and now that I think about it, would be exactly like taping a popsicle stick to those three keys and pressing it.

the setup is specific to each toon, and to each talent / skill tree...obviously. But I must say, the results are amazing. Even some skills / attacks are clipped a little, while the damage still hits. I dare to say its seamless.

just to attempt to twist some screws at Mosg2, I have a RL friend who is playing a madness sorc, same level as me. When we duel.. I always win. ALWAYS. and by more than 30%. (Our hps are within 30 points, and our gear is very close in stats.)

Ive seen the thread Khatovar refers to. And I too have been trying to get a FIRM "yes ISBoxer is ok" comment. Most of my replies are also a bit vague or elusive. So, theres still a grey area there. Im doing it.

[Atrocious]

I think that teqnique would work great for my rage builder abilities as a SW. So if I press 1, 1 and 2 get sent to the game window, and I would put my Sundering Assault and the other rage builder in quickslot 1 and 2. Since Sundering assault has a few second CD it hopefully would be used when it was off CD. Not sure if it would work since I haven't tried yet since I am unsure of the legality of it. Also great for an "Oh shit" button to blow all defensive cooldowns.

I'm an old man, so my reflexes ain't what they used to be, so any help I can get legally to perform better is ok in my book. If it's not legal I won't fret over loosing out on a CD 30% of the time. I can live with that.

[Apps]

Jugg - Defense spec.
I believe its...
Sundering Assault
Smash
Force Scream
Assault

in that order.

[Vecter]

[
Ive seen the thread Khatovar refers to. And I too have been trying to get a FIRM "yes ISBoxer is ok" comment. Most of my replies are also a bit vague or elusive. So, theres still a grey area there. Im doing it. [/B]

I do not think we will ever get a confirmation that any software outside of the game client will be officially approved. They just don't want to get into that slippery slope and once they approve one application they then have to start giving out approvals for any others that request it. I think their time is best spent elsewhere. We just have to be satisfied with the generalized responses that we get. Only comfort we can take is that no one has been banned as of yet using any boxing software "legitimately."

[Apps]

I really think youre absolutely right Vecter.

[Khatovar]

Khatovar got it right. I don't want to multibox SWTOR yet. I do multibox in WOW tho, and use that technique there(when mutiboxing and not). Got the idea from Mosq(sp?) and his DK manifesto.

I saw Khatovars post in the other thread, but the answer Khatovar got was so vague I don't dare to interpret that, also not sure what Khatovar asked about.

For me the question boils down to what is legal or not, not if I get banned for it. Since I won't do it if it's illegal but they will never catch me. So whether they can ban me or not is not question.

I'll update if I get a clearer answer from CS about this. Hopefully I won't get an equally vague answer.

The email I sent was basically the same email I have in the Multiboxing and current MMOs thread (page 3 maybe - I'm on my phone...), minus the questions on RAF and is hardware/software boxing is allowed, because we already had those answers. I also added a question asking specifically about mouse/keyboard macro abilities RE the SWTOR branded keyboard and using those things to create external macros. I sent it through the web form, so I don't think I have a copy of the exact refined email and they didn't quote it or send me a confirmation on the submitted ticket with the original text.

I'll check again tonight, but it's not likely that I saved a copy.

[Pyro_box]

Depending on the various incarnation of online game over the past decade, I have always “abused” what would be considered each games EULA. From the moment I bought my first game pad; Nostromo N52 I would create macro’s that would allow me to perform things that were capable; just highly unlikely to the degree of accuracy that I was doing. Everquest; (2) accounts, with (2) computers, my BARD would stitch 4-songs within a cycle with absolute perfection during intense combat, with my Druid tossing heals out. Hotkey introduced me to 5-WoW accounts, where I use to sit in the Towers in Alterac Valley decimating anyone foolish enough to try to take it. Isboxer further advanced my abilities/capabilities letting me run Heroic 5-man’s day and night if I so choose. The one key thing to each of these was that I was at the keyboard, or keyboards as it may be.

In all these games never once did I get banned for violation of the EULA. The biggest concern from the developers are Bots that run independent of human input, with very predictable patterns for the soul purpose of saturating the gaming economy with items and currency for profit. We, the rather small, and somewhat obsessive multiboxing community are a tiny blip on their radar. Sure, we piss off a lot of folks who, when they run into us get steam rolled, nothing we do currently, could not be done independently without a gaming pad, or Hotkey, ect.
My $0.02 – but an opinion none the less

[Starbuck_Jones]

The problem with what you are wanting to do with regards to rage building and rage spending. Sundering assault over Slash requires a priority to be checked each time you press it to be effective. WOW's ui allows this with fall through macros and /click macros where you push a button and it just goes through your priority list until something fires, then starts over when you press it again.

SWTOR's UI is made of ass right now and spamming both keys with simultaneous keystrokes just wigs things out and you will find that Slash gets used more often than Sundering Assault, and other rage abilities just don't fire off. I have the most difficult with Force Scream. I have seen my character seizure the force scream animation several times while I am spamming the buttons and then something else will fire off instead.

It just gets really hard later on when you get the abilities that lower rage costs every time you block or parry. Smash becomes free and scream takes one rage. Eventually the UI will get better and Juggernauts will have a two button macro. One for rage building, one for rage spending. Then all you have to do is worry about taunts and managing cooldowns.

So unless you want to create a macro that uses a keystroke delay (bad bad bad) with some app or driver,it's just not going to work like it does in wow. Best you can do is smash rage spend key then smash rage build key and be content with whatever random ability gets used.


I would just try to enjoy the game for what it is right now instead of trying to micro out an extra 4% dps. The game is buggy as hell with every aspect if you look close enough. Conversations with no lip animations. Certain abilities drop your current target. Tradeskill window item comparison reverses values. Bonus goals that don't show up until the quest is grayed out (starship missions). Taunts, interrupts and cooldowns not firing off when clicked. PVP flags only turning off inside cantinas. Fuzzy text all over the place. Un-gatherable resources. Countless audio problems with sound dropping out. Bugged missions. Mobs that can spam abilities and stack dot's infinitum.

WOW was the same way when it started, and its going to take SWTOR a LONG LONG time to polish it up.

[Mercbeast]

If you have a razer naga, a g15 or whatever you can create macros and scripts.

If you decide you want a spam button with a naga this is what you do. Create a macro, uncheck the insert delay button and then just hit all the buttons you want to be activates. The naga hits them all at the same time but for whatever reason, Swtor is actually prioritizing the keystrokes so the first key at the top of the macro actually hits first.

This was talked about openly in beta and people were asking about it frequently due to the official razer/bioware partnership for the swtor launch and the lack of an actual macro system.

[Atrocious]

While it may be true they can never catch me, for me that is not a line I cross. What others do is their business. :)

Off topic: Why is it so hard for some MMO developers/publishers to just clearly state what is and is not allowed? Especially with regards to a relative simple issue like this? Blizzard has been semi coherent at least in the quotes some have gathered here on this site. Granted even Blizzards communications leave a lot to be desired.

Also I didn't mean to imply that Khatovar's email was not adequate in anyway, just from experience if you ask a lot of questions in one email/message it sometimes does not produce the desired result. Especially with a touchy subject like this because if they are not careful in answering they might open a can of worms they didn't intend to.

[MiRai]

While it may be true they can never catch me, for me that is not a line I cross. What others do is their business. :)
I wouldn't suggest holding your breath while you wait for a specific response. I'm pretty sure Bioware has enough on their
plate at the moment with all of the fixes they need to implement before they lose their subscribers.

I have some questions, though...

What advantage can you possibly gain with this method when there is a global cooldown in place? Isn't that what the GCD is
for... So you can only perform one action at a time? Playing a character solo and pressing keys when they're supposed to be
used in your DPS rotation would obviously be the most efficient way to play. With no macro system built into this game then
that leaves us with the "spray and pray" method.

If you believe this playstyle to be unethical then, by all means, don't use it. Is it cheating? I don't know how it could be
believed to be cheating seeing as you cannot attain the same DPS as a solo player because you're stuck spamming several
keys at once and you're in no way gaining an advantage by doing so. Is it convenient? Yes, it's more convenient from a
multiboxing standpoint.


Off topic: Why is it so hard for some MMO developers/publishers to just clearly state what is and is not allowed? Especially with regards to a relative simple issue like this? Blizzard has been semi coherent at least in the quotes some have gathered here on this site. Granted even Blizzards communications leave a lot to be desired.
You answer your own question in your last paragraph...

because if they are not careful in answering they might open a can of worms they didn't intend to.
I'm going to assume that no one here is new to the internet... or even new to life for that matter. How many times have you
seen someone twist another person's words around for their own benefit? How many times have you seen someone pull a
single sentence or phrase out of an entire paragraph just to focus on it and pull it apart?

Theoretical situation...
Let's say <insert company name> was to publicly announce that <insert multiboxing software> was completely legit and
abided by the EULA/TOS 100%. Great news, right? Well, what if the next game patch rolls around 2 months later and now
there are compatibility issues with the multiboxing software? Or the next multiboxing software patch rolls around and a new
feature that was implemented into the software is against the EULA/TOS of the game that, 2 months earlier, announced this
software was abiding by the rules 100%.

Who is at fault?
Should players be banned?
How can you separate the players with malicious intent to exploit this new feature versus innocent players?
Should the software be blacklisted from being used with this game?
Should the company retract their statement from 2 months prior?
The list of questions goes on...

Here's the easy answer: "Multiboxing is allowed but not a supported playstyle." Accept that and play the game.

[Atrocious]

I got an answer and it was legal, now the big question is will it help me... only time will tell.

Ingame support:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/80/popsicleanswer.png/http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/697/popsicleanswer.png

Text from email:
Greetings xxxxxx,


I am Protocol Droid W6-F0 of Human-Cyborg Relations...

I have received your transmission regarding in using the functionality of your keyboard.

We are glad to inform you that it is allowed to use the functionality of your Logitech G13 keyboard and you can use the multiple press function if the options you are using can be used at the same time.

Please do not hesitate to contact us again if there is anything further we can help you with.

Galactic Support is our specialty...


Sincerely,

Protocol Droid W6-F0 (aka Chris)
Star Wars: The Old Republic Customer Service

We would like to hear about the experience you had regarding the quality of our transmission. Please send any comments or suggestions to CSFeedback@SWTOR.com

[cichard]

i been using my mmo keyboard and mouse macro program to make multiple keybinds attched to 1 key. I do this to make a stealth bar for my assassin. basicaly when i press my stealth hotkey my keyboard sends the hot key to switch to bar 5 then the stealth hotkey. Switching my main bar to bar 5 with all my stealth skills then when i press any sklil that breaks my stealth i have it hotkeyd to use that skill then switch my bar back to bar 1.

[Gorthu]

No need to press more than one key to do this, if you use isboxer. I've played with this, using three different methods. Making multiple keys, and assigning the same hotkey to them, is one method. The other is just putting all the keys I want sent in as Actions for 1 step. However, since there is GCD, somethings won't go off, so you'll be required multiple key presses to get them activated. Thirdly, I tried using steps, but I get excited sometimes and smash the buttons. I can spam a keypress faster than lightning. To help alleviate this, I put text msg popups in so I knew which skill was coming next. Again, GCD and CD have to be accounted for, else you just use the same skills over and over.

[Lax]

Programmable input devices are so pervasive in PC gaming that it would be absolutely stupid for MMO (or other game) publishers to ban for their use. These companies have marketing agreements, cross promotions, etc, even though the input devices are specifically designed to do things that some people feel are against the rules of their favorite games.

Example: http://www.razerzone.com/swtor/keyboard - this is a SWTOR licensed programmable keyboard, you get an exclusive in game item, the game client must have some support for it "Up to 16 million customizable colors, which also respond to actions in game", etc. Look at all the marketing! They want you to use this. Imagine if you bought one of these puppies and then BioWare banned you from SWTOR for using it. Your immediate response would be for both Razer and BioWare to go fuck themselves for leading you into this trap. And you could probably sue over it.

Now let's go one step further. Any product competing with the above product, such as the Logitech G13, must be allowed to compete fairly, so they can't ban you for doing the same thing you would have done with the Razer keyboard, with another product, unless they would also ban you for using the Razer keyboard.

Anything else would be highly unethical, possibly outright illegal, and if it were me, I would probably challenge it legally. They simply can't promote these activites/products and ban for them at the same time.

So anyway, there's my rationale. It's been this way for a few years at least. I'm not sure this issue is as relevant as many of you make it out to be. :)