Earthquake

[Eloxy]

Getting back to boxing after a brake since last season in wotlk. got like 2,1k rating back then and hoping to do ok this time altso.
Anyway, do anyone of you quad shaman peeps use earthquake for anything? is it even worth specing?

Eloxy

[Nikita]

I use it on my team, priceless to have against melee cleaves. + they are buffing the dmg by 75 % next patch :)

[Eloxy]

oh that sond nice, i did thing the damage was kinda meh.. but 75% buff is more than welcome. Just cast and stand in it right?

[Lyonheart]

oh that sond nice, i did thing the damage was kinda meh.. but 75% buff is more than welcome. Just cast and stand in it right?

EQ+spammable CL should be crazy

[valkry]

I'll probably spec back to it next patch. At the moment I have gone for spark of life in the resto tree and instant ghost wolf instead. haven't worried about lava surge either. Might also spec out of the spirit hit talent and go for the 12% magic dmg reduction instead also.

[Eloxy]

lava surge is only gonna get things outa sunc, id never spec this personaly. but the eq i might.
Gonna be strange to get spammable CL to. BB manapool ;)

[Multibocks]

What?? If you use a two step you can always use LB when its up. I find it priceless. The pressure it creates is immense.

[Lyonheart]

Also remember the hit talent has +3% dps as well.

[ebony]

EQ+spammable CL should be crazy

it is av been playing shammys on the ptr and av was very epic so much chainlighting ^^ even got to play with the blues EQ was takeing a player down to about 25% hp x5

[valkry]

What?? If you use a two step you can always use LB when its up. I find it priceless. The pressure it creates is immense.
I prefer for the 100% hp combos (lvb+cl+shock) instead of constant pressure. I guess it's a playstyle thing. And being oceanic, 2 step macros are laggy for me (or the equivalent as I dont use ISboxer).

And by laggy, i mean any macro with a castsequence command in it has a pause in between casts.

As for the hit talent, you sacrifice 3% dps for 12% less magic dmg. Seems a reasonable trade, unless that 3% less makes you struggle for kills.

[Khatovar]

Have you tried making use of the Custom Lag Tolerance slider?

[Nikita]

I'll probably spec back to it next patch. At the moment I have gone for spark of life in the resto tree and instant ghost wolf instead. haven't worried about lava surge either. Might also spec out of the spirit hit talent and go for the 12% magic dmg reduction instead also.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/ravencrest/Nik%C3%AEta/talent/primary


This is my specc :)

[valkry]

Have you tried making use of the Custom Lag Tolerance slider?
Yes, multiple times.

Nice spec Nikita, looking at it now, I agree with Precision over Acuity, though I have both in mine (below). Keep in mind I BG like 10 times more than I arena (only for points) so I have gone for instant ghost over AR (though I wish I could grab it lol).

To be honest, the main reason why I specced out of EQ is because I haven't been able to get mouse broadcasting working properly with keyclone. it keeps bugging out and alt tabbing me when i go to broadcast, so I changed my play style a bit and removed it from my considerations (Blizz nerfing it didn't help either).

The other difference is Earth's Grasp. I just love feedback too much in BGs (whereas it's not as good in arenas).

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/frostmourne/Atox/talent/primary

[Nikita]

Remember that critt isnt a desirable stat for elemental shamans. :)

[Lyonheart]

Remember that critt isnt a desirable stat for elemental shamans. :)

In order of rank it is the "least" desirable. But if its the only dps upgrade choice.. take it.. it effects LBs and CLs. You want every DPS talent you can take.

[Nikita]

That kinda depends if you are going PvE or PvP. For PvP, you can put your points into something else that would help out more in a PvP situation :)

[zenga]

The value of crit is quite often underestimated for ele in pvp. Definitely for boxers: lets say you play 4 ele shamans, who each have 20% crit chance.
When you cast the same spell on all 4 toons, then the chance that one crits is:
[(1 - (0.8*0.8*0.8*0.8) )*100]= 59%
When you spec into acuity, this changes into 65%, which outweighs the extra damage gained from elemental precision by miles. It's not even a discussion that acuity > elemental precision in full ruthless gear. You can easily reach the hit cap and still have decent mastery & haste values. Into 4.3 where the flametongue imbue gets replaced from a flat spellpower value to a dmg buff, the value becomes even bigger.

If you swap around other talents, that is up what you do (bg/arnea) and to your playstyle/comp.

Not really related to boxing, but there was an interesting discussion on skill capped the other day about crit. One of the better pvp'ing ele shamans out there made a claim that he prioritized crit over mastery and haste for arena. He never really explained in detail why, but there were a couple of interesting reasons being discussed why that is. My theory is that it mainly depends on the comp you play. I've seen ele's who mainly shock / kite all the time rather than hard cast, trying to create a window of opportunity by cc to burst hard with fs/lvb. If you find yourself shock/off healing all the time, a pure crit spec becomes really interesting.

[Lyonheart]

EP is also 3% more damage to all damage.. so it not just +hit. 3% is a lot X5

[zenga]

EP is also 3% more damage to all damage.. so it not just +hit. 3% is a lot X5

It doesn't matter if it's x5 or not, it stays 3%. If you have a spell that does 10k dmg, you'll normally do 40.000 dmg with 4x ele. With 3% elemental precision you'll do 41,200. Increasing the chance that 1 of your spells doubles it's value due to a crit by roughly 6% at the values I used in my example is just far superior, even more if you factor in the overloads.

It's - and don't take this personal - mathematically plain stupid to take elemental precision over acuity as a multiboxer.

[Lyonheart]

It doesn't matter if it's x5 or not, it stays 3%. If you have a spell that does 10k dmg, you'll normally do 40.000 dmg with 4x ele. With 3% elemental precision you'll do 41,200. Increasing the chance that 1 of your spells doubles it's value due to a crit by roughly 6% at the values I used in my example is just far superior, even more if you factor in the overloads.

It's - and don't take this personal - mathematically plain stupid to take elemental precision over acuity as a multiboxer.

I was not arguing that it is better than acuity. ( did I ever say that? )I keep seeing people talk about skipping the +hit talent not understanding that it is a damage increase talent ASIDE from the hit. In any build where you want to maximize DPS it is not an option to not take all 3 points in it. For PvP i can see skipping it for survivability or mobility..better healing or whatever. I just think its not the best thing to skip. More damage is always better, PvP or PvE. And more so when your talking about multiples of the same class all casting at the same time.

But yea, skipping acuity is not a smart option either.

[zenga]

I was not arguing that it is better than acuity. ( did I ever say that?

No you didn't say that, and my reply was more intended as a general comment to what was earlier stated in the thread (might not have been clear from my quote though). You said however that EP was 'a lot', and I tried to say it's not a lot if you weight it against other talents, that it's basically a minor damage increase in pvp, as a boxer.


I keep seeing people talk about skipping the +hit talent not understanding that it is a damage increase talent ASIDE from the hit.
very true, even pve raiders are often not aware of that (but obviously none is gonna skip it since you need a lot more hit for pve).



In any build where you want to maximize DPS it is not an option to not take all 3 points in it. For PvP i can see skipping it for survivability or mobility..better healing or whatever. I just think its not the best thing to skip. More damage is always better, PvP or PvE. And more so when your talking about multiples of the same class all casting at the same time.

It's not like there are a whole lot of options that skip. Personally I always go 3/3 elemental mastery, for the simple reason that when you cast 15 lightning bolts/chain lights over a 2 minute timeframe, where you have approx 5 overloads from with 15 mastery points, the cooldown gets reduced with 1 minute on the biggest spell for ele shamans. I find that a crazy talent and would never ever skip it for pvp. But I guess each person has his or her personal preference / playstyle.

I disagree though with 'more damage is always better in pvp'. There is a breakpoint where utility makes a bigger difference to win a game than pure dps. So not taking 3 points that give a very modest damage boost (like EP) over any other utility talent (be it roots, survival, reduced mana, w/e) seems to be the better way to go in pvp.

[Nikita]

This got me interested in trying a critt based shaman team. Wouldt you get more mana back aswell if you keep critting like a donkey? Id imagine spamable CL with 35-40% critt would hurt big in arenas

[zenga]

This got me interested in trying a critt based shaman team. Wouldt you get more mana back aswell if you keep critting like a donkey? Id imagine spamable CL with 35-40% critt would hurt big in arenas

On my current pvp gear (full ruth + leg staff), while maintaining hit capped I can reforge up to 27% crit chance, without gemming (since I use int/res). So if you were to have 4 ele shamans as a boxer with each 27% crit chance, that would result in a 72% chance that 1 spell crits. (it would require 68% crit chance per toon to have 99% chance that 1 spell crits out of the 4 btw). Seeing what you lose out on mastery, and the benefits you gain from overload, crit is not worth gemming / reforging for. But crit is far from a bad stat for ele, it's just the least desirable, since the other stats offer more. Many other classes their least desired stats are much worse than what crit is for ele. But taking the 3 talent points in acuity should be a no brainer (over EP).

[ebony]

btw feedback is what removes the cooldown on chainlighting ;)

[valkry]

Some shammy teams doesnt take feedback if they find their arena matches dont last over 2 mins. Whereas I BG so for me it is huge.

And I solved the EP vs Acuity problem, I take both. I usually only die once or twice in BGs, so I dont need huge amounts of dmg reduction, though both of them combined would be nice.

[Khatovar]

I keep seeing people talk about skipping the +hit talent not understanding that it is a damage increase talent ASIDE from the hit.


very true, even pve raiders are often not aware of that (but obviously none is gonna skip it since you need a lot more hit for pve).


Too true on this. I don't PvP, but both my Resto Shaman and Enhancement Shaman dipped into the Elemental tree for EP. It's hard to resist a talent that offers +hit and +dmg.

[MiRai]

So if you were to have 4 ele shamans as a boxer with each 27% crit chance, that would result in a 72% chance that 1 spell crits.
I just woke up so I apologize if I'm retarded but... Where do you get 72%? Can I see some math on this?

[zenga]

I just woke up so I apologize if I'm retarded but... Where do you get 72%? Can I see some math on this?

to compute the chance for 1 of several events to occur you multiply the complements (not sure if that's the proper english term)

so if toon A, B, C, D all have 27% crit chance, they all have 73% chance ito not crit (individually)

so
= (1-(!A*!B*!C*!D))*100
= (1-(0.73*0.73*0.73*0.73))*100
= (1-0.28.3)*100
= 0.72*100
= 72% chance that one of the 4 elemental shamans gets a crit when casting a spell at the same time

Another example:
Let's say a tank has a 10% chance to parry, a 20% chance to dodge and a 30% chance to resist an attack (non wow related), then what is the probability that one of those occur when he gets hit?
(1-(0.9*0.8*0.7)°100
or 49.6% chance that he will either parry, block or dodge, and a 50.4% chance jackshit will happen

[MiRai]

to compute the chance for 1 of several events to occur you multiply the complements (not sure if that's the proper english term)

so if toon A, B, C, D all have 27% crit chance, they all have 73% chance ito not crit (individually)

so
= (1-(!A*!B*!C*!D))*100
= (1-(0.73*0.73*0.73*0.73))*100
= (1-0.28.3)*100
= 0.72*100
= 72% chance that one of the 4 elemental shamans gets a crit when casting a spell at the same time

Another example:
Let's say a tank has a 10% chance to parry, a 20% chance to dodge and a 30% chance to resist an attack (non wow related), then what is the probability that one of those occur when he gets hit?
(1-(0.9*0.8*0.7)°100
or 49.6% chance that he will either parry, block or dodge, and a 50.4% chance jackshit will happen
I'm not going to say you're wrong but, I don't like the first example versus the second. The second
example makes perfect sense because we're talking about one single character having a chance to do 3
different things. However, if you have 4 different characters and they all have 27% chance to crit... then...
that's it -- They have 27 % chance to crit. Their crit percentage cannot be added together to increase their
overall chance to crit.

This is how I have always viewed this.

[zenga]

I'm not going to say you're wrong but, I don't like the first example versus the second. The second
example makes perfect sense because we're talking about one single character having a chance to do 3
different things. However, if you have 4 different characters and they all have 27% chance to crit... then...
that's it -- They have 27 % chance to crit. Their crit percentage cannot be added together to increase their
overall chance to crit.

This is how I have always viewed this.

The question is: 'what is the chance that one of the 4 shamans his spell crits, when they all fire a spell at the same time'. Or in other words: what is the chance that one of the ele shamans doubles his damage. Of course each shaman retains his individual crit chance, but as a boxer you want also to look at the team.

You can rewrite the examplet to this:

A has 27% to do ability W when casting a spell
B has 25% to do ability X when casting a spell
C has 26% to do ability Y when casting a spell
D has 30% to do ability Z when casting a spell

If ABC & D fire off a spell at the same time, then what is the probability that one of the four abilities (WXYZ) happen?
= (1-(0.73*0.75*074*0.70))*100
= 71,7% chance that either/at least W X Y or Z happen when 4 ele shamans shoot a spell at the same time

To compute the probability, WXY & Z can be the same ability, or 4 different ones, it doesn't really matter. Nor does the exact individual % matter, it can be different individual percentages.

[Multibocks]

I'm not going to say you're wrong but, I don't like the first example versus the second. The second
example makes perfect sense because we're talking about one single character having a chance to do 3
different things. However, if you have 4 different characters and they all have 27% chance to crit... then...
that's it -- They have 27 % chance to crit. Their crit percentage cannot be added together to increase their
overall chance to crit.

This is how I have always viewed this.

Statistics are all about the question being asked, and he's absolutely correct for this question. Individually they have a 27% chance and collectively they have an 71% chance for one of them to crit.

[Zub]

just turning the numbers around (and i might complerelty wrong)
71% chance for one of them to crit means that there is a 29% chance for NONE at all to crit.
Meaning that the 71% actually covers all the times when 1 will crit, 2 will crit, 3 will crit and the (rare but devastating) occasion where all 4 will crit.

In other words, collectively they have a 71% chance that AT LEAST one of them will crit.

I know, probably not the most useful post. nvm

[Eloxy]

So... I specced eq and I kinda like it for now. Even at early pvp. If you have 2+ mele on you it's golden.
Anyhow as for the crit haste mastery discussion, my favorite is haste with no doubt atleast for arena. For bgs I'd might go crit as it keeps your mana going and is a nice burst stat.

[Nikita]

Gl Eloxy in the upcoming season :) finaly gonna get my 2k and 2,2 achievement! Been fighting gladiators, arenamasters and tier 2 geared ppl @ 2000 MMR the whole season :/

[valkry]

I'm not going to say you're wrong but, I don't like the first example versus the second. The second
example makes perfect sense because we're talking about one single character having a chance to do 3
different things. However, if you have 4 different characters and they all have 27% chance to crit... then...
that's it -- They have 27 % chance to crit. Their crit percentage cannot be added together to increase their
overall chance to crit.

This is how I have always viewed this.
No, if they all have 27% chance to crit, then there is a 72% chance that ONE of them will crit if they all cast 1 spell.

As for mana issues, I don't think I have any. Lightning bolt just keeps the mana flowing in. And lava burst alone keeps the clearcasting up enough (most fights are just a few casts with lvb up the front providing mana reductions for the next 2 spells).

As for me, I have gone the way of not reforging anything.

[Nikita]

From a shaman multiboxer POV, I find the EP better then Acuity. Since I allways have FS up on my target, and I only use LB and CL to pressure ppl or peel ppl off my healer, I feel its better to get hit capped by points, rather then gemming for hit/ reforging to hit. Wasting haste/mastery on hit is a no go for me. Zenga: but what you are saying is that the dmg input would be higher?

[zenga]

. Zenga: but what you are saying is that the dmg input would be higher?

Well I thought I covered that, but for the sake of the example, 4 ele shamans fire off a 7 stack earth shock, and they all hit for 20k, or 80k total (numbers are just for the sake of the example).

With 3% EP you would do 82.4k total damage (3% increased dmg).
With acuity you get for your whole team a 6% increased chance to hit for 100k (or a 6% extra chance that 1 of the earth shocks crits, doubles its damage). That chance was based on the 20% crit chance I used in my earlier example.
The 6% extra chance for an extra 20k outweighs in my opinion the 2.4k extra dmg for EP. as a multiboxer.

[Nikita]

I prefer for the 100% hp combos (lvb+cl+shock) instead of constant pressure. I guess it's a playstyle thing. And being oceanic, 2 step macros are laggy for me (or the equivalent as I dont use ISboxer).

And by laggy, i mean any macro with a castsequence command in it has a pause in between casts.

As for the hit talent, you sacrifice 3% dps for 12% less magic dmg. Seems a reasonable trade, unless that 3% less makes you struggle for kills.

You can kill 4k++ resilience players with only FS, LvB and ES. Just remember to purge em :) I found that after my insta LvB, most players would interrupt my CL, thus slowing the castsequence, and delay my ES on my kill target. Now I pop trinkets, insta LvB and ES (glyphed the shock thingy), and both hit at the same time :)

[valkry]

Well I thought I covered that, but for the sake of the example, 4 ele shamans fire off a 7 stack earth shock, and they all hit for 20k, or 80k total (numbers are just for the sake of the example).

With 3% EP you would do 82.4k total damage (3% increased dmg).
With acuity you get for your whole team a 6% increased chance to hit for 100k (or a 6% extra chance that 1 of the earth shocks crits, doubles its damage). That chance was based on the 20% crit chance I used in my earlier example.
The 6% extra chance for an extra 20k outweighs in my opinion the 2.4k extra dmg for EP. as a multiboxer.
.06 x 20k = 1200, averages out less

[Zub]

.06 x 20k = 1200, averages out less
the average is less, but an extra 20k burst has probably more utility than a constant 3% increase. to kill off something for example. It's probably a PVP vs PVE type decision

or at least i think that's the point being discussed

[zenga]

.06 x 20k = 1200, averages out less

You can also see it like this: if each shaman casts 8 spells in a row, each hitting for 20k (which is over all 4 shamans 32 spells cast), if no spell out of those 32 crits, EP becomes better than acuity in terms of total damage done.

So in my example, if your team does 640k damage without a single crit (over 8 spells each cast for 20k), EP will do more damage from this point (and how likely is it that not a single spell crits when you have 8 times a 65% chance that one will crit).

[valkry]

I always though that crit = dmg increases when lava burst is taken out. Please excuse this very basic math and let me know if it's wrong.

Example:
You have 0% crit and hit for 1 dmg per spell. You do 100 casts, thats 100 dmg.

You gain 3% extra dmg from talent, that makes 103 dmg.

You instead gain 3% extra crit, making, on average, 3 of those 100 casts hit for 2. 97x1 + 3x2 = 103 dmg.

[zenga]

I always though that crit = dmg increases when lava burst is taken out. Please excuse this very basic math and let me know if it's wrong.

Example:
You have 0% crit and hit for 1 dmg per spell. You do 100 casts, thats 100 dmg.

You gain 3% extra dmg from talent, that makes 103 dmg.

You instead gain 3% extra crit, making, on average, 3 of those 100 casts hit for 2. 97x1 + 3x2 = 103 dmg.

Yeah that is correct (as far as I know there is no 'hidden' extra modifier for crit chance for ele). But there are 2 things to look at:

- you multibox pvp, so personally I prefer to have a 65% chance to do 100k (normal 80k) on a target, rather than doing 82.4k normally with a 59% chance to do 103k., at least for arena
- your overload benefits as well from crit rating (also from EP of course, but only for 75% of the inital value))

[Eloxy]

Gl Eloxy in the upcoming season :) finaly gonna get my 2k and 2,2 achievement! Been fighting gladiators, arenamasters and tier 2 geared ppl @ 2000 MMR the whole season :/

Hope i Get enuff time to play, baby and work is taking its time ;) was hoping to go 2k but my skill is low and rusty ;)

[Eloxy]

Did quite som pvp yesterday and tried out EQ. and i must say im impressed so far. If you know a mele zerg is coming your way, it will litterary reduce the damage on your team with 50% cuz of the knockdown, pluss it damages them aswell. Looking forward to the dps increase aswell;)

[Santa]

Another example:
Let's say a tank has a 10% chance to parry, a 20% chance to dodge and a 30% chance to resist an attack (non wow related), then what is the probability that one of those occur when he gets hit?
(1-(0.9*0.8*0.7)°100
or 49.6% chance that he will either parry, block or dodge, and a 50.4% chance jackshit will happen

I'm not the expert of probability but isn't this only true if parry, dodge and resist can occur at the same time?

Otherwise it would be just 10%+20%+30%.

[Vipeax]

Santa is right.

A random source:
http://wow.allakhazam.com/wiki/avoidance_%28wow%29

Avoidance stacks additively, not multiplicatively. A character with a 50% chance to dodge and a 50% chance to parry will never get hit, not 25% of the time. But any decent tanking site should tell you the same.

(1 - (0.5 * 0.05) = 0.75 ;))

[zenga]

I'm not the expert of probability but isn't this only true if parry, dodge and resist can occur at the same time?

Otherwise it would be just 10%+20%+30%.

It was a theoretical example (hence why I wrote between brackets 'non wow related). I'm not a math expert either btw. But the question is; what is the chance that the next attack can be parried, dodged or resisted i.e. what is the chance that one of the following events occur (where parry, dodge & resist are the events). Computing the chance that multiple events occur at the same time or computing the total chance to avoid the next attack is a different thing.

[Santa]

It was a theoretical example (hence why I wrote between brackets 'non wow related). I'm not a math expert either btw. But the question is; what is the chance that the next attack can be parried, dodged or resisted i.e. what is the chance that one of the following events occur (where parry, dodge & resist are the events). Computing the chance that multiple events occur at the same time or computing the total chance to avoid the next attack is a different thing.

Yeah, I wasn't talking about any game in particular either.

I was just thinking in general that there's no reason for parry, dodge and resist to happen at the same time which was the way your calculation was suggesting.

If they can't happen at the same time then the calculation using complement would be: 1-P(parry or dodge or resist)^c = 1-(.10+.20+.30)^c = 1-(.40) = .60 (^c means complement)

[zenga]

I was just thinking in general that there's no reason for parry, dodge and resist to happen at the same time which was the way your calculation was suggesting.


I'm not a native English speaker, but I wrote: "then what is the probability that one of those occur when he gets hit", and honestly I have no clue how I can suggest anything else than what I wrote. Maybe I should have added 'at least', but taking all previous posts into account I guess that was pretty obvious.

[zenga]

Santa is right.

A random source:
http://wow.allakhazam.com/wiki/avoidance_%28wow%29


Aye ... and a Bloody Mary is a popular cocktail containing vodka, tomato juice, and usually other spices or flavorings such as Worcestershire sauce, Peri-Peri Sauce, Tabasco sauce, beef consomme or bouillon, horseradish, celery, olive, salt, black pepper, cayenne pepper, lemon juice, and celery salt. It has been called "the world's most complex cocktail.

Random source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Mary_%28cocktail%29
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Mary_%28cocktail%29)

[Vipeax]

I'm not a native English speaker, but I wrote: "then what is the probability that one of those occur when he gets hit", and honestly I have no clue how I can suggest anything else than what I wrote. Maybe I should have added 'at least', but taking all previous posts into account I guess that was pretty obvious.
You gave a math example that suggested something else than what you wrote, yes.

[Santa]

I'm not a native English speaker, but I wrote: "then what is the probability that one of those occur when he gets hit", and honestly I have no clue how I can suggest anything else than what I wrote. Maybe I should have added 'at least', but taking all previous posts into account I guess that was pretty obvious.

Ok, but I still don't see how it would be possible to parry, dodge and resist an attack at the same time. That just can't be. Unless you're a rouge.

[zenga]

Ok, but I still don't see how it would be possible to parry, dodge and resist an attack at the same time. That just can't be. Unless you're a rouge.
Because it's a bloody theoretical example from a bloody fantasy game

[Khatovar]

Ok, this thread is thoroughly derailed now. I understand PVP discussions get some extra slack as theorycrafting and debate are par for the course, but let's reign it in a bit and at least keep the discussion somewhat relevant.