Change in Rules here @ dual-boxing.com

[Svpernova09]

We are no longer limiting what multiboxing applications are allowed to be discussed here.

Rules (http://www.dual-boxing.com/showthread.php?t=1518)


You are free to discuss any and all multiboxing software applications to any extent you desire. Blatant advertising without *expressed consent* will be dealt with by mods.

[Apps]

Nova, may I ask why the change? ... as in, what *was limited before now?

[Svpernova09]

Nova, may I ask why the change? ... as in, what *was limited before now?

The change has come about in a decision by Ellay and I (with some insight from Lax) that in order to provide a better community experience in helping people make informed decisions about what they're purchasing.

Until today, Pwnboxer was a topic we did not welcome.

Today we welcome informational and intelligent discussion about any multiboxing application on the market. However we still do not allow blatant advertising unless expressly approved by Ellay (or myself).

[MiRai]

Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy...

:)

[Shodokan]

I love how you are taking the higher ground in this case since they still ban for talking about isboxer etc.

[Littleburst]

Respectable choice indeed.

[F9thRet]

Of course I'll abide by the rules, and it does show a great amount of honor on your part, But after the whole Wiki Debacle, I'm not sure i would have been so forgiving. Still, You took the high road, and that is something I can respect.

Stephen

[Jafula]

:-) Yay, I'm glad you made that decision, now we can discuss all the available tools! Of course I'm biased to ISBoxer (and HotKeyNet).

[Khatovar]

But after the whole Wiki Debacle, I'm not sure i would have been so forgiving.

I have the same concern, but it's not so much about forgiving as it is about leaving the option for discussion for the boxing community so as not to ostracize people. It's a change to benefit multiboxers, not a change to benefit a program.

Personally, my tolerance for anything that starts to resemble the BS from then is going to be at zero. This is about an informative community, not an invitation to start or perpetuate flame wars.

/bitch

[Vecter]

I have the same concern, but it's not so much about forgiving as it is about leaving the option for discussion for the boxing community so as not to ostracize people. It's a change to benefit multiboxers, not a change to benefit a program.

Personally, my tolerance for anything that starts to resemble the BS from then is going to be at zero. This is about an informative community, not an invitation to start or perpetuate flame wars.

/bitch
I'm right there with you Khatovar!

This change won't lessen our rules that we have in place for moderating this community. If BS starts it will get taken care of. Stick to topics, discuss with facts, and avoid the flame wars and this community will continue to grow positively.

People will have their strong opinions on topics and thats fine, just keep it in line.

Note: This in no way means we will moderate and delete topics that contain positive or negative views on any software in use. We aren't here to push people one way or the other, everyone is entitled to choose whatever they want to box the game they are playing.

[Sam DeathWalker]

Should have done this like well forever .....

But kinda moot now anyways with IsBoxer / Jamba combo being light years ahead of all else.

[Ualaa]

Having a discussion of all products available has to help the community.

If you like something, then you can let others know.
If you don't like something, you can warn others of your experience with it.

End result a more educated community, better able to make informed decisions.

[Svpernova09]

Having a discussion of all products available has to help the community.

If you like something, then you can let others know.
If you don't like something, you can warn others of your experience with it.

End result a more educated community, better able to make informed decisions.

This site has always been about the community. That's why I've stuck around and tried to contribute as much as I could. I don't get paid to be here. No one does. Every mod and super mod is here because they want to help make the community better. I want new people to have a better experience than I did. And I think we've come a long way since I started and I think we still have room to grow and become a better community.

You don't have to like every multiboxing app out there, I suspect there's still some die hard hardware boxers out there. There's still the guys sticking to Linux and using their own hacked together app. I think that's great. I want to hear the good and bad about whatever you guys come up with. If it's Keyclone, Hotkeynet, ISBoxer or Pwnboxer. The tools we use shouldn't drive a wedge into the community. Let us decide what the best tools are.

My job here is to maintain a welcoming place for new people to get information and discuss ideas, while also providing a place for old timers like Vecter a place to turn up the font size to HUGE so they can see the latest and greatest macros. I'm proud to be apart of a community where I've found some really awesome people and I look forward to the future here.

[Vecter]

old timers like Vecter a place to turn up the font size to HUGE so they can see the latest and greatest macros. I'm proud to be apart of a community where I've found some really awesome people and I look forward to the future here.

Not sure I understand, I only use the default font size. Is that not right?

[Khatovar]

Not big enough, my window isn't scrolling.

[Tonuss]

Should have done this like well forever .....
I can understand why they had decided not to allow discussion of certain people and software here. I like the decision to allow it now and I think it reinforces the idea that the community and what we do comes first.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

Should have done this like well forever ..... You might think of the current rules change as an expiration of a one-year ban for malicious/inflammatory conduct by the Pwnboxer folks. We'll see how things go now that the topic is open for discussion again.

[F9thRet]

I have the same concern, but it's not so much about forgiving as it is about leaving the option for discussion for the boxing community so as not to ostracize people. It's a change to benefit multiboxers, not a change to benefit a program.

Personally, my tolerance for anything that starts to resemble the BS from then is going to be at zero. This is about an informative community, not an invitation to start or perpetuate flame wars.

/bitch

Well said, and I'm so glad to hear it. I have complete trust in you guys anyways.

Stephen

[Fat Tire]

I see nothing but problems.


/puts on tin foil hat

Its pretty easy to see that there is/was an alternate motive besides just being to talk about pwnboxer now. Me thinks Lax had financial incentive and or DB.com from pwnboxer ? hmm... nah

Only time will tell when we see a pwnboxer tab that links to his site at the top of DB. Did it cost extra for ISboxer to have "Premium MMORPG Boxing software" in its title as opposed to Keyclone?

I am probably way off base though in my thinking.

[Vecter]

I see nothing but problems.


/puts on tin foil hat

Its pretty easy to see that there is/was an alternate motive besides just being to talk about pwnboxer now. Me thinks Lax had financial incentive and or DB.com from pwnboxer ? hmm... nah

I am probably way off base.

I don't see why having financial incentives creates some conspiracy. Site has to run and pay for itself doesn't it? And it was time to finally bury the hatchet on a long winded feud and open up this community for more dialogue on all the alternatives in the multiboxing world. There aren't many so why not really become a hub for all to freely discuss?

It's just gaming, I think we can put the tin foil hat away.

[Fat Tire]

I don't see why having financial incentives creates some conspiracy. Site has to run and pay for itself doesn't it? And it was time to finally bury the hatchet on a long winded feud and open up this community for more dialogue on all the alternatives in the multiboxing world. There aren't many so why not really become a hub for all to freely discuss?

It's just gaming, I think we can put the tin foil hat away.


Cool, DB.com is getting paid or got made an offer by pwnboxer and that is the real reason for this change. Well I just wish you guys would have just come out and said that instead of saying "its just good for the mutiboxing community to discuss all platforms" bullshit. As the change to the members is at best a byproduct of DB.com getting paid. Yay! for us, thanks for thinking about the DB community.

While I think its fine that DB.com can get paid to off set their costs. I think it was total fucking bush league the way it was explained . I was born, but it wasn't yesterday.

[Svpernova09]

I see nothing but problems.


/puts on tin foil hat

Its pretty easy to see that there is/was an alternate motive besides just being to talk about pwnboxer now. Me thinks Lax had financial incentive and or DB.com from pwnboxer ? hmm... nah

Only time will tell when we see a pwnboxer tab that links to his site at the top of DB. Did it cost extra for ISboxer to have "Premium MMORPG Boxing software" in its title as opposed to Keyclone?

I am probably way off base though in my thinking.


Cool, DB.com is getting paid or got made an offer by pwnboxer and that is the real reason for this change. Well I just wish you guys would have just come out and said that instead of saying "its just good for the mutiboxing community to discuss all platforms" bullshit. As the change to the members is at best a byproduct of DB getting paid. Yay! for us, thanks for thinking about the DB community.

While I think its fine that DB.com can get paid to off set their costs. I think it was total fucking bush league the way it was explained . I was born, but it wasn't yesterday.




I am probably way off base though in my thinking.

This is correct. You are way off base.

Dual-Boxing currently has 3 methods of Income. Google ads that get displayed to users that are not logged in, Keyclone referrals, and from ISBoxer. I'm pretty sure I've explained our income sources before in another post. Pwnboxer does not financially support this site. If Ellay was going to take money from Pwnboxer, he would have done it a long time ago, but he's always refused.

Did Lax pay extra for the anchor text in his link in the menu? Not at all. I changed that without consulting Ellay or Lax. Check this out, go to http://www.isboxer.com Right click on the page and click "View Source". Go look for the the Title Tags.


<title>ISBoxer: premium MMORPG multiboxing software</title>Now lets look at our menu code...


<a href="http://www.isboxer.com/dual-boxing">ISBoxer: Premium MMORPG Multiboxing Software</a>The change was purely from a marketing perspective. No paranoia, tinfoil hats, or bad mel gibson movies were involved.


Now you're certainly entitled to your opinion and your paranoia. But I would ask that you keep it to yourself or come ask me directly. As I've said many times before, I have absolutely no financial stake in dual-boxing.com I get paid the same amount today that I did yesterday, in fact, I got a RAISE from yesterday. 100% Raise times the $0.00 I was making brings me up to $0.00! AMAZING!

I'm here for the community. Ellay is here for the community and if the site makes a profit, then hey, it's paying HIM back for the years it didn't. I know with some precision what our income numbers are. Ellay isn't in on some island with an umbrella drink going LOLDUAL-BOXING.COM.

The only financial gain Lax could have for dual-boxing.com discussing Pwnboxer is more people would see how shitty Pwnboxer is compared to ISBoxer, and thus become ISBoxer users. So if we allow Pwnboxer discussions here it could translate to more customers for Lax, who is the major monetary contributor to dual-boxing.com. I'm not understanding the down side here. But alas, this was not the only reason we made the change. Believe it or not, everything I've said in this thread is how I feel / what I believe. You don't have to like it, just don't hate on it.

[Fat Tire]

This is correct. You are way off base.

Dual-Boxing currently has 3 methods of Income. Google ads that get displayed to users that are not logged in, Keyclone referrals, and from ISBoxer. I'm pretty sure I've explained our income sources before in another post. Pwnboxer does not financially support this site. If Ellay was going to take money from Pwnboxer, he would have done it a long time ago, but he's always refused.

Did Lax pay extra for the anchor text in his link in the menu? Not at all. I changed that without consulting Ellay or Lax. Check this out, go to http://www.isboxer.com Right click on the page and click "View Source". Go look for the the Title Tags.


<title>ISBoxer: premium MMORPG multiboxing software</title>Now lets look at our menu code...


<a href="http://www.isboxer.com/dual-boxing">ISBoxer: Premium MMORPG Multiboxing Software</a>The change was purely from a marketing perspective. No paranoia, tinfoil hats, or bad mel gibson movies were involved.


Now you're certainly entitled to your opinion and your paranoia. But I would ask that you keep it to yourself or come ask me directly. As I've said many times before, I have absolutely no financial stake in dual-boxing.com I get paid the same amount today that I did yesterday, in fact, I got a RAISE from yesterday. 100% Raise times the $0.00 I was making brings me up to $0.00! AMAZING!

I'm here for the community. Ellay is here for the community and if the site makes a profit, then hey, it's paying HIM back for the years it didn't. I know with some precision what our income numbers are. Ellay isn't in on some island with an umbrella drink going LOLDUAL-BOXING.COM.

The only financial gain Lax could have for dual-boxing.com discussing Pwnboxer is more people would see how shitty Pwnboxer is compared to ISBoxer, and thus become ISBoxer users. So if we allow Pwnboxer discussions here it could translate to more customers for Lax, who is the major monetary contributor to dual-boxing.com. I'm not understanding the down side here. But alas, this was not the only reason we made the change. Believe it or not, everything I've said in this thread is how I feel / what I believe. You don't have to like it, just don't hate on it.

So you saying that DB.com is not getting any monetary contributions from Pwnboxer, at all? And that Isboxer who is a Major contributor to this site their only benefit is showing the members on this site that already dont use pwnboxer how bad it is?

hmmm...is isboxer allowed to be discussed on pwnboxer forums now?

I know you dont get paid SN9, but you cant expect anyone to believe this change wasnt based on money.

Your OP makes it sound like your doing the DB community a soild. Just wish you would have come out and said that this change was for money, to help lax who is in turn DB.com biggest contributor or to help DB.com directly. No matter how you want to define it this change was about money.

Will Pwnboxer get one of those nifity tabs that link to his site? PWNBOXER - Double premium MMORPG multiboxing software (twice as good as Isboxer). Is only from a marketing perspective anyway. To be fair - I use Isboxer ;p

[Svpernova09]

So you saying that DB.com is not getting any monetary contributions from Pwnboxer, at all? And that Isboxer who is a Major contributor to this site their only benefit is showing on members this site that already dont use pwnboxer how bad it is?

hmmm...is isboxer allowed to be discussed on pwnboxer forums now?

I know you dont get paid SN9, but you cant tell me that is decision wasnt based on money.

Your OP makes it sound like your doing us a soild. Just wish you would have come out and said that this change was for money, to help lax who is in turn DB.com biggest contributor.

Will Pwnboxer get one of those nifity tabs that link to his site?


Every change to this site in the last 2 years (or longer) I've either had my hand in, or Ellay has been in direct contact with me about. I can say with pretty solid certainty that Pwnboxer is not currently paying any money to dual-boxing.com *I* was the one that brought up the idea of allowing discussions here to Ellay

I do feel like allowing any software discussions here is doing you all a solid. Allowing you to see real world success and failures of any application is huge. Lets go back to August/November of 2008. Lets recall all the hate threads that were showing up about Innerspace. If I had not stepped up and explained things to the people who were mods at the time, you would not have been allowed to discuss Innerspace or ISBoxer here. Now 3 years later Innerspace is the cornerstone here.

I can't say if ISboxer will be allowed at Pwnboxer forums. I'm not an admin there, nor do I even have an account there. Judging from this thread http://multiboxing.com/forums/f2/pb-mb-com-no-longer-censored-4341.html they're still filtering out dual-boxing.com links.

The decision was based on money. It was based on who multiboxers give their money to.

Pwnboxer will not be getting a menu link here. There is no advertising arrangement between us.

[Ualaa]

hmmm...is isboxer allowed to be discussed on pwnboxer forums now?


You can mention IS Boxer freely on multiboxing.com; I do regularly.

In the past, when someone said they wanted to do whatever with their boxing software, I would explain how I do it with my software of choice; for the most part those threads stand, but a dozen or so have been removed (I've been posting on multiboxing.com, since Nov 09).
Most of those removals were when I was a very new user.

I had seen a couple of dual-boxing members post something regarding Pwnboxer on these forums.
Svper challenged them to mention a product other than Pwnboxer.
One of them, who regularly posted videos of clearing things mentioned he was an administrator on that site and his signature clearly stated he uses IS Boxer as his boxing software.

I basically googled the site, and informatively answered questions always stating clearly how to solve their problem with IS Boxer; essentially a test to see how much a non-PB product could be discussed on the other site.

An actual link to www.isboxer.com (http://www.isboxer.com) is censored, the same as www.dual-boxing.com (http://www.dual-boxing.com).
The words IS Boxer or Dual-Boxing are not censored.

[Khatovar]

I had no hand in this decision, but I feel pretty at ease with the concept that it ISN'T some sort of sly infiltration. I lean heavily towards it being more along the lines of people coming here to ask about boxing and being shut out because we don't discuss what they use.

Someone comes here, they post, they mention that program and they get a postlock right out of the gate; that's not exactly welcoming. So they don't come back, they don't learn that there's better options out there and they end up going elsewhere and believing whatever someone else feeds them. Why continue to post here when no one can tell you anything good or bad about the program you are using, no one can help you with it, no one can troubleshoot your issues or help you get better at multiboxing in general because what you use is a taboo topic? That's conterproductive to the user and the community.

What IS productive is being able to have a new user come in, say "I use this and want to do that" and having a community that can say "I don't know how to do that with that program, but I know with this other one you can do it this way..." instead of "We don't discuss that program here. Go away. /thread"

Doing that makes it look like WE are being catty and frankly, that's a win for Pwnboxer, because there is no place where anyone can freely say anything negative or contrary to what he puts out there. You certainly aren't going to find a post like THIS (http://www.dual-boxing.com/showthread.php?t=43536) on his forums, and until now, you couldn't find it here either.

[Fat Tire]

The decision was based on money. It was based on who multiboxers give their money to.



Thanks SN9

[Daeri]

<title>ISBoxer: premium MMORPG multiboxing software</title>Now lets look at our menu code...


Wow, after a good ten minutes of desperate search, I just figured out what link you were talking about. So the change only shows up if you use the theme "ipb pro-current". For the record, I switched at some point to "ipb pro" because I could not get to see sub-forums of the general section anymore with the default theme. Well I thought I must have changed it by mistake and switched back to what I thought was the default theme. So there must be wrong with my settings for the sub-forums to not show anymore since noone complained so far
/offtopic

[Fat Tire]

I had no hand in this decision, but I feel pretty at ease with the concept that it ISN'T some sort of sly infiltration. I lean heavily towards it being more along the lines of people coming here to ask about boxing and being shut out because we don't discuss what they use.

Someone comes here, they post, they mention that program and they get a postlock right out of the gate; that's not exactly welcoming. So they don't come back, they don't learn that there's better options out there and they end up going elsewhere and believing whatever someone else feeds them. Why continue to post here when no one can tell you anything good or bad about the program you are using, no one can help you with it, no one can troubleshoot your issues or help you get better at multiboxing in general because what you use is a taboo topic? That's conterproductive to the user and the community.

What IS productive is being able to have a new user come in, say "I use this and want to do that" and having a community that can say "I don't know how to do that with that program, but I know with this other one you can do it this way..." instead of "We don't discuss that program here. Go away. /thread"

Doing that makes it look like WE are being catty and frankly, that's a win for Pwnboxer, because there is no place where anyone can freely say anything negative or contrary to what he puts out there. You certainly aren't going to find a post like THIS (http://www.dual-boxing.com/showthread.php?t=43536) on his forums, and until now, you couldn't find it here either.

So what your saying and what the thread showed is that we now have facts based moderator approved pwnboxer bashing for the benefit of isboxer.

[Khatovar]

So what your saying and what the thread showed is that we now have facts based moderator approved pwnboxer bashing for the benefit of isboxer.

What exactly do you want, Fat Tire? A conspiracy or are you simply trolling? You weren't content to leave your first post stating simply "I see nothing but problems." You came back to edit it to claim it's all Lax and this site of selling out to Pwnboxer. But now everyone is selling out to Lax by "bashing" Pwnboxer to pimp ISBoxer. So far the only problems I'm seeing are coming from you throwing all sorts of accusations about and trying to turn this simple little thing into some huge overblown scheme. It's not.

The sky isn't falling, there's no secret checks in the mail and it's not some sinister plan designed to steal your soul. It just means less posts to lock.

[Svpernova09]

Wow, after a good ten minutes of desperate search, I just figured out what link you were talking about. So the change only shows up if you use the theme "ipb pro-current". For the record, I switched at some point to "ipb pro" because I could not get to see sub-forums of the general section anymore with the default theme. Well I thought I must have changed it by mistake and switched back to what I thought was the default theme. So there must be wrong with my settings for the sub-forums to not show anymore since noone complained so far
/offtopic

Yeah, users ability to change themes is a mistake, it'll go away soon.

[Sam DeathWalker]

Lax, who is the major monetary contributor to dual-boxing.com


And I would like to mention that I was the first person to strongly support him (due to the fact I was using his product in EQ all the time) when he very first came here and posted, when many others were against him and his products for whatever reasons that are now no longer valid. I supported Pwnboxer also but with the two step method in IsBoxer its just to far ahead now.

Well DB should have some income, its not free to run any site and the mods put in a lot of time and effort to get rid of the spammers and make it a better place for all. I don't even allow posters who don't pay to post on my site cause its just to time consuming to get rid of spammers. Out of 13,000 members on my site I think 12,000 are spammers.

Jamba needs to come up with some angle to generate a bit of cash how long can someone provide a superior product out of dedication to the game with zero cash coming in? Even Furor found a way to turn his passion into cash ..... Plus after only a year and a half I have 3 paying posters - $1.47 so far! WHO DA MAN!

[zenga]

Jamba needs to come up with some angle to generate a bit of cash how long can someone provide a superior product out of dedication to the game with zero cash coming in?

Why wouldn't that be possible? Thousands of examples exist in the opensource community where donations are generally accepted as the way to go.

[Moorea]

I think it's great that there is now finally a site where all the software/solutions can be freely discussed (and no the pownboxer and now "guides" selling advertising site with a slightly more generic name than this one isn't actually a place where all solutions can be discussed)

obviously it is yet to be seen if it's possible to keep moderation to just removing spam/gold selling/illegal stuff and maybe offensive posts without bias toward a product nor personal issues getting in the way - but I'd say let's give the benefit of the doubt and enjoy a great resource ! hopefully it's not too late for this site to eclipse the other one by having the best, objective content and community

[eauxfolles]

Great news from my point of view. Not knowing all the history behind, I've never understood why there is not "one source" for discussions on all tools available. Makes a lot of sense for me. Especially for beginners who might be happy that they've found a page at all, this will hopefully help to get a complete picture.

[Umbaalo]

I wasn't even aware there was another site til after reading this thread. I've stumbled across pwnboxer videos on youtube whilst searching out multiboxing how-to and pvp vids, but never bothered to watch em. As far as I'm concerned, this is my only resource/community for my needs. (Love the helpful and fun community, hard to find forums like these on the internets!)