4.2 PTR PVP Discussion

[outdrsyguy1]

The minimum cap on Conquest Points earned per week is now 1500 at 1500 or less Battleground rating. The maximum cap remains 3000 at 3000 or more Battleground rating. The cap continues to scale non-linearly between those two points.
The game now separately tracks different Conquest Point caps for Battlegrounds and Arenas. The cap for Arena rating will always be 2/3 of the cap for Battleground rating at any given Arena rating. Players may earn a total number of Conquest Points per week equal to the higher of these two caps, but once players have reached the cap for either Arenas or Battlegrounds, they can no longer earn Conquest Points from that source. Conquest Points from Battleground holidays only count toward the total Conquest Point cap.


so arena for 66% of your points and random bg's each day to try to make of the difference?

[Svpernova09]

The minimum cap on Conquest Points earned per week is now 1500 at 1500 or less Battleground rating. The maximum cap remains 3000 at 3000 or more Battleground rating. The cap continues to scale non-linearly between those two points.
The game now separately tracks different Conquest Point caps for Battlegrounds and Arenas. The cap for Arena rating will always be 2/3 of the cap for Battleground rating at any given Arena rating. Players may earn a total number of Conquest Points per week equal to the higher of these two caps, but once players have reached the cap for either Arenas or Battlegrounds, they can no longer earn Conquest Points from that source. Conquest Points from Battleground holidays only count toward the total Conquest Point cap.


so arena for 66% of your points and random bg's each day to try to make of the difference?


Hopefully they'll allow you to get all your Conquest Points from Random BGs in 1 day. Like they allow you to do for valor in Heroics. If they don't, it really goes against what they've said recently about wanting players to play everyday.

If you haven't noticed this change is to bring in line PvP with PvE. Currently you can only get part of your valor cap from Heroics, and part from Raiding.


Edit: I've commandeered this into a 4.2 PVP PTR thread.

[Kruschpakx4]

All healing critical strikes now heal for 2 times a normal heal (+100%), up from 1.5 times a normal heal (+50%).



Lightning Shield and Water Shield can no longer be dispelled.


Elemental

Lava Flows now grants a 30/60/90% haste buff when a Flame Shock effect is dispelled, up from 10/20/30%.
Thunderstorm now reduces the movement speed of players it knocks back by 40% for 5 seconds.


Glyphs

Glyph of Unleashed Lightning (new Prime glyph) allows Lightning Bolt to be cast while moving.


Set Bonuses

The 4-piece Elemental shaman PvP set bonus (Gladiator's Thunderfist set) has been redesigned. It now causes Lightning Shield to generate an extra charge, rather than consuming one, when it is triggered by receiving damage, up to a maximum of 3 (9 with the Rolling Thunder talent).


Ahhhhhhhh, back to shamans!

#edit those buffs are not "overkill" but still enough to get around 2.2k

[Ughmahedhurtz]

Glyph of Unleashed Lightning (new Prime glyph) allows Lightning Bolt to be cast while moving.

I can't believe that actually made it through the vetting process.

[Kruschpakx4]

well thats not as hard as it sounds (ok perhaps with 90% more spell haste) but vs full resilience lightning bolt does like ~5k damage

lava flows causes something like a win - win situation, if they dispell flame shock you got 90% more spell haste, means you should win due to insane casting speed affecting damage and healing spells and if they dont dispel it you turtle so long until everyone has 9 lightning orbs and then flame shock - unleash elements + cooldowns instant lava burst + earth shock + rocket kills every full pvp target (not to mention what happens if one of the fulmination crits)

but anyway its not overkill, like you got still mana problmes especially when healing and no defensive cooldown makes elemental weak, I would welcome a remove of the lightning shield glyph and make thunderstorm like 20% mana restore or some kind of defensive cooldown
Fixing the mana issue would also fix the defense in some way, may we could use earthquake then to protect us from melees but its mana cost is actually way too high
hope for some more buffs in that way

[remanz]

damn. Good that i didn't get too far leveling another melee team.

5 goblin shamans here i come.

[Toned]

Glad I got my viscious gear on my shams before giving up hope. Now I'll have 2 pvp teams FUCK YOU RAIDING !

[Shodokan]

Glad I got my viscious gear on my shams before giving up hope. Now I'll have 2 pvp teams FUCK YOU RAIDING !

Mine just hit 81 lmfao

[pinotnoir]

Global Warmings are increasing Lava Flows.

I_kODETmro8

[Shodokan]

Besides basically requiring us to run multi-healer comps or a buttload of blood dks? =P

Also are people going to just do instances instead for the rest of the cap per week? People with 1 team might find this the faster option.

[Noids]

What change exactly are you talking about?

[Shodokan]

What change exactly are you talking about?

You are only allowed to arena for 2/3 of your weekly cap.

[Kekkerer]

I have found rated BGS to be fine (pre 4.1), the setup I go with:

4DKs (mine)
1 prot war/blood dk
1 mage
4 healers

Dno what it's like now that eots and ab have been added but i don't expect it to be much harder.

[Mosg2]

Yeah, this is no biggy to be honest. You just arena for 2/3 and then just instance or rated BG for the rest. The rated BG's have no impact on your 5's or 3's rating so there's no chance you're going to drop your cap. It does suck that it'll take more time and potentially force you to do something that you don't like for points.

[Multibocks]

I don't care for this change tbh.


edit: are they allowing us to carry over conquest points to next season or will they convert them to honor points?

[valkry]

Yeah, this is no biggy to be honest. You just arena for 2/3 and then just instance or rated BG for the rest. The rated BG's have no impact on your 5's or 3's rating so there's no chance you're going to drop your cap. It does suck that it'll take more time and potentially force you to do something that you don't like for points.
Like having to do arena for conquest points when I just want to BG

[valkry]

I don't care for this change tbh.


edit: are they allowing us to carry over conquest points to next season or will they convert them to honor points?
They always convert mate. Conquest and Valour points. So just spend up, don't bother saving.

[Multibocks]

Damn you blizzard! =(

[Toned]

Like having to do arena for conquest points when I just want to BG

Do rated BGs then ><

[Ualaa]

My only foray into rated battlegrounds did not go that well.
It was not horrendous either.

Joined a "For the Alliance", that did not end up getting nearly enough people.
Towards the end, twelve of us decided to do battlegrounds.
Could not join as larger than a five-man group.
So the dropped two of the remaining seven players (no one had any pvp gear); I was exempt as a 5-box everyone comes or everyone goes, with 3.5k res.

We got Twin Peaks.
We lost 3 flags to 0 flags; they got their Perfection Achievements.

My DK's were able to kill as many as seven pvp opponents at once.
And did not die at all.
Their adjusted rating at the end was mid 1700's.



I love the larger scale battlegrounds.
And don't really care for Arena or the current implementation of rated BGs.

Whether they're forcing you to Arena or forcing you to do Rated BGs for Conquest points...
Either way, they're already dictating what type of PvP you can do if you want the best PvP gear.

Not sure which will be least painful...
a) Arena + Rated BG's
b) Arena + PvE and convert points
c) Just do the normal BG's that are fun... potentially be 1 season of gear behind... but not bother with Conquest points at all.

[Shodokan]

My only foray into rated battlegrounds did not go that well.
It was not horrendous either.

Joined a "For the Alliance", that did not end up getting nearly enough people.
Towards the end, twelve of us decided to do battlegrounds.
Could not join as larger than a five-man group.
So the dropped two of the remaining seven players (no one had any pvp gear); I was exempt as a 5-box everyone comes or everyone goes, with 3.5k res.

We got Twin Peaks.
We lost 3 flags to 0 flags; they got their Perfection Achievements.

My DK's were able to kill as many as seven pvp opponents at once.
And did not die at all.
Their adjusted rating at the end was mid 1700's.



I love the larger scale battlegrounds.
And don't really care for Arena or the current implementation of rated BGs.

Whether they're forcing you to Arena or forcing you to do Rated BGs for Conquest points...
Either way, they're already dictating what type of PvP you can do if you want the best PvP gear.

Not sure which will be least painful...
a) Arena + Rated BG's
b) Arena + PvE and convert points
c) Just do the normal BG's that are fun... potentially be 1 season of gear behind... but not bother with Conquest points at all.

Lets not forget that shaman hit 2k with furious gear.... two seasons behind.

[zenga]

Lets not forget that shaman hit 2k with furious gear.... two seasons behind.

What shamans are you talking about? WotLK? Hard to compare gear from different expacs as the average damage per spell relative to healthpools are totally different, as is healing. Not sure what point you are trying to make.

[drevil]

Ahhhhhhhh, back to shamans!
#edit those buffs are not "overkill" but still enough to get around 2.2k

yes the haste buff is very nice.

but i still see no way to finish full equiped people off before they pillar jump,
dks work somehow because of the grip and shell.

[Multibocks]

I'll be interested to see how high some shaman teams get, but this isnt good enough. They still need a real defensive cooldown.

[Shodokan]

What shamans are you talking about? WotLK? Hard to compare gear from different expacs as the average damage per spell relative to healthpools are totally different, as is healing. Not sure what point you are trying to make.

My point is that being a season behind in gear isn't going to stop anyone from getting to the rating they are capable of playing at simply because they are 200 dps difference or so from gear.

[zenga]

My point is that being a season behind in gear isn't going to stop anyone from getting to the rating they are capable of playing at simply because they are 200 dps difference or so from gear.

I don't know man. Have a 372 weapon on my ele in full vicious, and he can pump out quite some damage. Definitely compared to another ele with a 333 weapon and honor gear. Not to mention the survivability.

[Shodokan]

I don't know man. Have a 372 weapon on my ele in full vicious, and he can pump out quite some damage. Definitely compared to another ele with a 333 weapon and honor gear. Not to mention the survivability.

Theres a difference between purples and blues, but season to season especially in later seasons it makes much less of a difference.

[Noids]

I'm reading this change a bit differently to you guys I think.

This is how I see the change given my current situation:

I currently don't rated BG so don't have a rating at all. At 1750 5v5 rating I get a cap of 1880 or so. I am allowed to do arena to achieve that full allocation of 1880 as far as I see it.

The 2/3 calculation comes into it if I had a BG rating of 1750 also. In this case my CP cap would be 1500 + (1880-1500)/0.67=2070. In this case I can only use arena wins to hit my arena cap of 1880 and need to use Rated BG wins or daily/holiday normal BGs to make up the 190 difference.

For anybody with <1500 rating in either the change is simply that your total cap for either will be 1500 rather than 1343. Unless the cost of pieces goes up this seems to be an overall buff to lower teams. Either way I achieved full vicious about a month ago now and have a useless stash of CP which I am just using to collect different looking weapons. WTB conversion of CP to VP IMO ;)

[Mosg2]

Wow, reading this again closely--Seems we were wrong. It sounds like all that's changing is that your weekly Conquest cap via arenas is only 2/3 of what the equivalent rating via rated BG's would be.

IE, if you have 2k rating in Arenas and your cap now would be 2200 points, after the patch your cap would only be 1452 points. Meaning basically, there's no f'ing difference in points for doing arenas between being a 500 rated team and a 2199 team.

They're trying to fix busted rated BG's by incentivizing them instead of making them actually appeal to most gamers. Sigh.

[Noids]

That looks right Mosg. What I think though is that this applies across the spectrum for arena ratings.

ie. at sub 1500 arena rating, CP cap from arena wins is 1000 points and the last 500 need to come from RBG wins. If you are a 2250 team your arena cap would be 1500 and assuming you have a 1500 or less RBG rating you could achieve your entire 1500 cap from arena wins.

Either way it appears that they do want us to make a serious effort at RBGing at least.

On a sidenote I see ret pallys are getting 10s cooldown on Word of Glory again which should make a few people happier. Haven't played the pallys much in cata but I'd be thinking it probably takes around 10s to generate 3 charges for WoG or am I wrong?

[Mosg2]

Somewhere around that. With wings becoming undispellable... They might be able to burst people down pretty easy. Shrug.

[Shodokan]

Somewhere around that. With wings becoming undispellable... They might be able to burst people down pretty easy. Shrug.

Uh... where does it say that wings become undispellable?

[Mosg2]

It's not in the notes but it's apparently on the PTR. There's a thread at arenajunkies.

[remanz]

No bloodlust. wizards (including shamans) still ok ? I am under the impression of that no BL nothing comes out when melee zerg you unless you are frost mage or warlock.

[Multibocks]

pretty much and also why shaman suck right now

[Toned]

It's like this every xpac... Cleave or be Cleaved... end of xpac Pew pew or be Pew pew'd

[Multibocks]

Hungering Cold 1.5 second cast time. Welp it's been fun and all =(

[Shodokan]

Hungering Cold 1.5 second cast time. Welp it's been fun and all =(

Affected by haste and usable on the move like slam.

It also won't make it live.

[daanji]

Affected by haste and usable on the move like slam.

It also won't make it live.

As posted by Mmo-Champion.com (http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/2317-Patch-4.2-PTR-Build-14179#new_comment)

Spell Changes
Originally Posted by MMO-Champion
Death Knight (Forums / Talent Calculator / Skills/Talents)
Frost
Hungering Cold now has 1.5 sec cast time, up from instant.

Druid (Forums / Talent Calculator / Skills/Talents)
Feral
Ferocious Bite no longer heals you.
Ravage! additional damage seems to be reduced from 3218 to 330, but that's kinda sketchy so you might want to wait for a confirmation.

Mage (Forums / Talent Calculator / Skills/Talents)
Arcane
Spellsteal no longer has a cooldown. Now costs 40% of base mana, up from 20%.

Frost
Ring of Frost is now instant, down from 1.5 sec cast time.

Paladin (Forums / Talent Calculator / Skills/Talents)
Holy
Divine Flame now heals for 10% of the value, down from 20%. Now also affects Flash of Light and Holy Light.
Walk in the Light now also increases the effectiveness of your Word of Glory by 30%.

Protection
Seal of Righteousness now also affects AOE melee attacks.

Shaman (Forums / Talent Calculator / Skills/Talents)
Elemental
Fire Nova now affects the shaman's Flame Shocked targets instead of its active fire totem.

Warlock (Forums / Talent Calculator / Skills/Talents)
Demonology
Create Soulstone now also works as a battle rez.

Warrior (Forums / Talent Calculator / Skills/Talents)
Arms
Wrecking Crew now only affects physical damage.


In the same patch notes, they have reverted Ring of Frost to be instant cast (down from 1.5 second cast) and made counter spell to have no cool down. This is complete bullshit.

Couple that with the Hot-fix nerf we already had and now htis?

If these changes do make it live - I'm canceling all of my accounts in protest for one month and I'll list these changes as the main reason.

I also don't like how they are structuring the Arena points / Rate battle grounds next season.

[Ualaa]

Some stack Haste and some stack Mastery.
Of course after: Hit, Spell Pen, Str and Res.
Most don't go for Crit as their stat.

If it goes live, that's a bit of a boost for the Haste camp.
Not sure how much Haste would be needed, to reduce that to our 1.0 sec GCD.

[zenga]

Some stack Haste and some stack Mastery.
Of course after: Hit, Spell Pen, Str and Res.
Most don't go for Crit as their stat.

If it goes live, that's a bit of a boost for the Haste camp.
Not sure how much Haste would be needed, to reduce that to our 1.0 sec GCD.

you need 50% haste or roughly 6400 haste rating (1% haste equals 128 haste in cata)

[Ualaa]

So basically, not going to happen...
But thanks for the number.

Pretty much play the game if its fun.
And if they kill all the fun compositions then quit or find another game.

Honestly, not even sure why I'm playing Warcraft at the moment.
All I do is log in to arena once a week, for the Conquest points.
I don't even like arena.
Just to have the best gear possible, to destroy in battlegrounds which I don't often do now that there aren't upgrades there.
Ironic.

[Zub]

So basically, not going to happen...
But thanks for the number.

Pretty much play the game if its fun.
And if they kill all the fun compositions then quit or find another game.

Honestly, not even sure why I'm playing Warcraft at the moment.
All I do is log in to arena once a week, for the Conquest points.
I don't even like arena.
Just to have the best gear possible, to destroy in battlegrounds which I don't often do now that there aren't upgrades there.
Ironic.
Time to start (yet) another team. TTSYAT!

[zenga]

Doubt that a 1.5s cast kills the comp to box. Nor will it be a valid enough reason to favor haste over mastery with the current haste values.

cast time / % haste / haste rating
1.4s/ 7.1% / 914
1.3s/15.4%/1969
1.2s/25%/3200
1.1s/36.4%/4654
1.0s/50%/6400

Not saying mastery > haste in 4.2, but the hungering cold nerf alone will not be reason enough I guess.

Besides, it was a much needed nerf for retardedly OP frost dk's.

[Ualaa]

Most of the time in Arena, straight Howling Blast spam with the odd Death Grip is all that is necessary.
With four DK's focused on one target, HB spam has been far more successful than my Obliterate rotation.

The Obliterate sequence is much more successful in 2's.
But that is a different game, with Chains of Ice to root (which I don't use in 5's).

[daanji]

Death Knight (Forums / Talent Calculator / Skills/Talents)
Frost
Hungering Cold now has a 1.5-second cast time.

Glyphs
Glyph of Dark Succor has been redesigned. Rather than placing a 15% maximum health floor on Death Strike healing while in Frost or Unholy Presence, it causes the next Death Strike within 15 seconds after killing a foe that yields experience or Honor Points to heal for at least 20% of the death knight's maximum health..

This just was posted as the Official 4.2 PTR notes for 5/26


The glyph change is completely bogus - makes Death Strike completely useless now for Frost and Unholy. Frost survivability is already low.

I can't tell you how many times I'm won arena matches solely due surviving longer with Death Strike. Arrrgh.

[zenga]

Glyph + HC cast + reduced dmg = ouch

the glyph is a complete joke and unnecessary
they fucked whole frost spec up with making permanent dead runes, now they keep that mechanic and nerf the hell out of frost, the problem is tmho that a frost dk doesn't even have to watch/time runes, its just button mashing and there is always something available that hurts on an insane short gcd. they could make frost presence more attractive for 2H, because up until now you had a killing machine that could never run out of power with decent self healing that had a ton of control over the enemy.

[Toned]

Clearly we dance between our DKs and Shamans depending on who is nerfed and who is buffed lols.

[Svpernova09]

This is what really makes me sick of WoW. The constant nerfbat swinging at anything that isn't a Warrior...

[Mosg2]

Or a Mage.

[daanji]

So what group do think would be most viable in 4.2?

Elemental shamans?
Enhancement shamans?
Ret paladins?

Other?

[remanz]

Ret went back to pre 4.0.6. It is not stronger. Just got WOG heals back and more cleave. It still has that 15 -20 second ramp up time on burst. (1st 3 HP to get Zealotry). So I would rank it the same as DKs.

Also when you consider teams, I think you have to separate 4 box and 5 box. If you play 4 where you focus mainly on offense, Elemental Shamans / Warriors (Yes Warriors) are my top picks.

If you box 5, DK + 4 Rets is my top pick. Enhance is althought very strong in offense, don't have a root breaker so it is a no go.

[zenga]

I'm still not too sure about the viability of ele shamans in 4.2 in pvp, definitely not when boxing. Blizzard tried to make up their weak defence by giving them a few new offensive abilities. That doesn't change the fact that we still die in a couple of globals. One rogue can easily kill 1 shamy on his own. That and the retarded lockout periods of your nature spells. Ghostwolf, thunderstorm, heals, ... are all nature based spells.

[Ualaa]

Even if Dark Succor changes, so its basically useless...
And Hungering Cold is given a cast time longer than our GCD... let's say it was subject to interrupts which locked out the Frost school even, so was not part of our rotation often.

All of which would suck...



The DK team still has a 30 yard range / 10 yard radius Howling Blast attack.
This is a cleaving attack, which applies Snare to anyone hit.
With Death/Frost Runes, we have four uses every 10 seconds, plus extra attacks as runes are restored by Frost Strikes.

We still have the option for Obliterate to focus fire a single target.
Not having Hungering Cold to CC the other targets would suck...
But this is still the option to focus-fire burst a kill target vs the cleaving attack that applies snare.

The team has defensive cooldowns, essentially for an opening which cannot be interrupted.
Death Grip is immunity to root, which most other compositions do not have.
Lichborne with Escape Artist, is a second trinket vs Fear/Charm/Sleep/Root.

The kill target is subject to Mind Freezes every 2.5 seconds.
We can Strangulate (4x Round-Robin on 1x Healer or 2x Round-Robin on 2x Healers).
Dark Sim can make a really hurting opponent hesitant to give our DK's a very powerful defensive effect.

I'd think the Healer + 4x Frost DK's is still a top team.

[zenga]

I'd think the Healer + 4x Frost DK's is still a top team.

This. It's just less overpowered now, it's no longer the A-team with rocky, rambo, schwarznegger and mcgyver, but it's still an A-team that is hard to counter.

[remanz]

well DKs will be right up there still. But how fast do stuff die these days. Full reslienced target with 4 dps beating on it. If it takes longer than the anti magic shell duration (which is like 5 not glphyed), then it is not looking too good. Not to mention you might not have 4 dps beating on it, DKs don't have a fear breaker once feared. So if you trinket the ring of frost, eating a full duration fear means game over.

[Mosg2]

I think the Healer+4 DK's is still your best bet for a 5's team, though Healer+4 Warriors and DK+4 Rets are close. The problem with the Warriors and Rets is that you don't have any defensive immunities that really destroy people. With the DK's you can Deathgrip while you have IBF, Lichborne and AMS up--Which makes you basically immune to every CC (except disarm) for 7-12 seconds. It's enough time to force a kill if you splash blanket Strangulate their team.

The Warriors will Charge-->Recklesness-->Brostorm. The damage from 4x Warriors would be insane--The problem is that once Brostorm is on cooldown you're much more easily kited and CC'd than the DK's or the Rets.

The Rets do take that ramp-up time before they're doing maximum DPS but being able to remove snares/roots from yourself is pretty amazing. If Wings makes it off the PTR being undispellable and not spell stealable... Yeah, they'll probably be worth it, especially with 10 sec WoG.

I think the problem with the Shaman team is still mana/survivability. Blizz really pushed for all of the caster DPS specs to not be able to offheal at all basically. That neuters the Shaman imo~.

Edit: @remanz: Lichborne is 12 seconds of fear immunity and can be used once feared.

[remanz]

My bad, forgot about that. LB is the answer.

DK has as many defensive CD as it gets. I really want a stun / knock down to keep my target there. and Warriors should have the best burst. Also it can shatter bubble or iceblock. So charge => deadly calm => knock down => reckenless => bladestorm. If you go immue, I can shatter you. With the way HP, Damage and Heals work, I don't see any healers can heal back damage very quickly. Once you are low, it takes time to bring your HP back. So the shattering throw might be just what we need to kill it.

I've seen and played DKs and Rets at their primes. They are both viable and good. But neither have answer to immunities, bubble / bop/ iceblock etc. I am going for warriors this time.

[zenga]

My bad, forgot about that. LB is the answer.

DK has as many defensive CD as it gets. I really want a stun / knock down to keep my target there. and Warriors should have the best burst. Also it can shatter bubble or iceblock. So charge => deadly calm => knock down => reckenless => bladestorm. If you go immue, I can shatter you. With the way HP, Damage and Heals work, I don't see any healers can heal back damage very quickly. Once you are low, it takes time to bring your HP back. So the shattering throw might be just what we need to kill it.

I've seen and played DKs and Rets at their primes. They are both viable and good. But neither have answer to immunities, bubble / bop/ iceblock etc. I am going for warriors this time.

warrior team sounds interesting, i'm just afraid that 1 frost mage can totally lock the team out
maybe one of the options is to get 1 dk who can deathgrip

[Toned]

4.2 I'm prob going to swap out a DK for a war so 3dk war + heals

[Mosg2]

The problem with Shattering Throw is that it has a cast time. It's great in theory, but...

[Shodokan]

The problem with Shattering Throw is that it has a cast time. It's great in theory, but...

It works if you macro it correctly. I almost have it working 100%

Plus warriors just straight up do more damage.

[Noids]

There was also talk of increasing Mortal Strike effects back up to 25% which gives warrior another bonus.

[Mosg2]

I just don't think you're going to kill someone in a Brostorm and then you're just going to get kited.

[Shodokan]

I just don't think you're going to kill someone in a Brostorm and then you're just going to get kited.

Then don't run 4 warriors. Run rogue/warrior/dk/hunter if you can find a way to do it.

[Kruschpakx4]

warrios just have 6 sec cc immunity each 90 seconds, nothing compared to dks

another bad thing, once they use recklessness they eat 20% more damage for 12 seconds and cant use shieldwall in those 12 secs even you cancelaura it.If you use shieldwall on one warrior for defensive he does almost no damage while dks dont lose any dps when activating ibf. Every time you switch to another target you should rend/hamstring - costs one and a half global cd doing zero damage.
Then you have only 1 charge each 11 sec ... much more worse than 4x deathgrip

so you can kill something withing reck+bladestorm, but I cant imagine quad warrior+ heal wins vs any good team at 4v5, your getting frost nova / ring or hungering cold/feared (yes warriors can be feared once berserker runs out you have zero fear protection for another 20 seconds) while they kill your healer
i.e any 5s team with a priest and pally can outlast your recklessness, the target gets bop and/or lifegripped so it would be better to not use 4x reck at the same time

ofc it could work as long as all 5 opponents stay close together so they die within a bladestorm - means 1600-1700 should be possible

overall the quad warrior team is just a weaker edition of the dk team

[Ualaa]

So this is a boxing composition that would do well against other melee cleave teams boxed, but not necessarily as well as some of the other boxing teams when playing against typical 5's compositions.

[zenga]

I'd rather go with 4 rogues than with 4 warriors. All the other team needs is a frost mage and a pally/priest healer.

[ebony]

4.2 I'm prob going to swap out a DK for a war so 3dk war + heals


thinking about the same i like the dps of the DeathKight but i feel i could have something with a lot of burst warrors seems to have more of a buest then DeathKights, hey i got killed but 5 today.... but like others have said soon as your CCed it be worse then the DeathKights CCed

If i get a warrior to 85 ill try it in the group and go from there maybe even 2 warrior 2 DeathKights (but that might get massey)


Mosg (http://www.dual-boxing.com/member.php?u=3092) started this Group up so i love to hear what plans his got for the group.. Maybe hunters are still that group thats seems to have the buest? (how are your hunters Mosg (http://www.dual-boxing.com/member.php?u=3092)?)

[remanz]

warrios just have 6 sec cc immunity each 90 seconds, nothing compared to dks

another bad thing, once they use recklessness they eat 20% more damage for 12 seconds and cant use shieldwall in those 12 secs even you cancelaura it.If you use shieldwall on one warrior for defensive he does almost no damage while dks dont lose any dps when activating ibf. Every time you switch to another target you should rend/hamstring - costs one and a half global cd doing zero damage.
Then you have only 1 charge each 11 sec ... much more worse than 4x deathgrip

so you can kill something withing reck+bladestorm, but I cant imagine quad warrior+ heal wins vs any good team at 4v5, your getting frost nova / ring or hungering cold/feared (yes warriors can be feared once berserker runs out you have zero fear protection for another 20 seconds) while they kill your healer
i.e any 5s team with a priest and pally can outlast your recklessness, the target gets bop and/or lifegripped so it would be better to not use 4x reck at the same time

ofc it could work as long as all 5 opponents stay close together so they die within a bladestorm - means 1600-1700 should be possible

overall the quad warrior team is just a weaker edition of the dk team

Bladestorm can be used as a snare/root breaker where anti magic shell has to be used primitively. Warriors ain't what it used to be in terms of defensive CDs. Shield wall can't match up against IBF, but It has Enraged Regeneration, which is really good (simply pop zerker rage for 30% full hp regen). Also if CCed, warrior regen health as well. Deathgrip is better than charge. But DKs don't have a stun/knock down to keep the target there. Charge stun+ knock down should be just as effective as Deathgrip if not more. Problem with DK is that once gripped, my target can still get a step on me and keep at mid instance where I can't grip him and melee attacks won't reach him. 50% snare is not good enough without a stun. I don't have this problem with DK + Rets, as my target was stunned mid air after the DG. All DKs, I get kited again.

i.e. With DKs, I beat on the shaman in wolf form. DG him. Pallly freedom on the shaman. I get to hit the shaman a few (won't kill him cuz earth shield , spirit totem etc). Now shaman can run away as I am in earthbind and he has freedom. You can really see where the stun would help here.

The main thing I am looking for is to sacrifice D to gain more burst. Still melee zerg, and warriors are not better than the DKs or even Rets overall. DKs and Rets are just more rounded, complete packaged where warriors are more straight offense. Its a simple question of within 3-5 seconds, which class can land the fattest combo to kill the target. If the target pop immunity, shatter it. and that gives warrior

[Kruschpakx4]

thing is you get cc'd to hell after bladestorm and I dont think reck+bladestorm is always a guaranteed kill, any good team is going to kite the warriors and kill the healer within a counterspell

with dks you can always strangulate/huntering cold / arena 1-4/5 icy chains/deathgrip to protect your healer and doing a lot more perssure because you can be immune to all sorts of cc (except disarm) for a ridiculous amount of time

sure I would be suprised if anyone gets 2k+ with quad warrior/heal but doubt this is going to happen (with the current state of warriors)

perhaps 4x prot lol

[zenga]

perhaps 4x prot lol

2x blood dk, prot warrior, resto shaman & resto druid
goal: gladiator by boring your opponents to dead, full time job

[remanz]

how far a team can go is more depedenting on who is behind the keyboard rather than the class combo (between dks and warriors).

Chance is always there. Back in the days when everyone was playing shamans/paladins, my friend actually played 5 druids and star fall + typhoon his way to 2k ratings.

I think both teams could be 2k + if you only play 4, and have a good healer with you. DKs can protect the healer more is a good point though.

[Shodokan]

thing is you get cc'd to hell after bladestorm and I dont think reck+bladestorm is always a guaranteed kill, any good team is going to kite the warriors and kill the healer within a counterspell

with dks you can always strangulate/huntering cold / arena 1-4/5 icy chains/deathgrip to protect your healer and doing a lot more perssure because you can be immune to all sorts of cc (except disarm) for a ridiculous amount of time

sure I would be suprised if anyone gets 2k+ with quad warrior/heal but doubt this is going to happen (with the current state of warriors)

perhaps 4x prot lol

5 warriors are at like 2k, but with recklessness not being able to be used with deadly calm.. i'm not sure how good warriors will be.

[zenga]

DK


Unholy Might now increases Strength by 10% 20%, up from 5%.



Balance

Starfire damage has been increased by approximately 23%.
Wrath damage has been increased by approximately 23%.



guess what's gonna happen ...

[ebony]

DK


Unholy Might now increases Strength by 10% 20%, up from 5%.



Balance

Starfire damage has been increased by approximately 23%.
Wrath damage has been increased by approximately 23%.



guess what's gonna happen ...


nope?

[Multibocks]

Those changes are insane...

[Fat Tire]

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/2622/disix.png

[Kojii]

DK


Unholy Might now increases Strength by 10% 20%, up from 5%.



Balance

Starfire damage has been increased by approximately 23%.
Wrath damage has been increased by approximately 23%.



guess what's gonna happen ...

ppl are gonna be boxing with moonkins....

[Umbaalo]

I'm not gonna hold my breath on the balance druids. They are gonna need a little more to be competitive damage-wise with DK teams.

[zenga]

I'm not gonna hold my breath on the balance druids. They are gonna need a little more to be competitive damage-wise with DK teams.

Not so much for arena's. But a boomkin can blow up anyone at the moment in a bg when given the time to cast. In rated bg's they rock. Giving them 2x 23% extra damage is pretty insane there.

And unholy dk's and 20% strength is nuts as well. Necrotic strike scales with attack power (and 2 AP = 1 STR). Not to mention the physical abilities that will rock. Both in pve and pvp. They nerf the fuck out of frost and now boost unholy like mad. Either way 4x necrotic strike is going to be fun for boxers, but i rather see balance in the game than that we can run OP comps.

[Noids]

So unholy DKs were considered OP at the start of Cata with 10% unholy might so it was nerfed to 5% along with rage of rivendare to 36%. Since then RoR is back to 45% and now unholy might is getting the x4 treatment??? Plus they still keep the Death's advance talent into the mix. I suppose pet damage has still been nerfed but it seems they have just transferred that damage all to the DK instead. If this stays through live, unholy DKs are going to scale amazingly as gear improves.

[zenga]

now (in frost spec) on my dk:
4.1
frost: 5k strength = 10k AP -> 7500 necrotic strike
unholy: 5250 str = 10.5k AP -> 7875 necrotic strike
4.2 (same gear)
unholy 6k strength = 12k AP -> 9000 necrotic strike

factor in extra damage done due to str buff and value of necrotic strike nearly doubles compared to heal

[Umbaalo]

Yeah, can see the boomkins tearing up rated BGs. Guess I should have specified or implied somewhat I was referring to arena. May be inclined to try pve with them, but feral looks better except for being prone to AoE damage more often.
I've only toyed with unholy spec right after the release of WotLK, so I'm way behind the curve there. I'm sure there will be quite a few here that will be experimenting with it before I get the DK team to 85.