1 button IWT and dps

[Nikita]

So, spent 2 hours yesterday trying to figure out a way to both do dps and IWT for my melee group. I use Octopus, so cant use the awesomeness of ISBoxer. I simply want it on first keypress to IWT, second keypress do dps. How the hell do I make such a button?

[ElectronDF]

I have a Logitech mouse and love it. Button 4, and 5 on thumb side is used for 2 most used spells/actions (main attack sequence and quick react attack). I use the sideways button action on the scroll wheel for my IWT. It is simple to get to, to spam and works great.

For looting with my alts, I set up SHIFT-1 to be my 1st alt, through SHIFT-4 to be my 4th alt and SHIFT-5 to be my everyone IWT (loot). It makes it easy to do collection quests (on mob bodies).

[Nikita]

Well, I use my mouse for click healing with my paladin. And would like one button to IWT so my DKs circle the target while dpsing. All in one button! Is this possible or is this in violations with the TOS?

[Ualaa]

The GM Quote of: "One Button = One Action" elabarated on this...
(It is in the wiki on this site)

Specifically saying...

Push one key now and one thing happens now.
Not push one key now, one thing happens now, and without further input from you something else happens in 2 seconds and still no further input 4 seconds after that something else happens too.



You can push one key in your software.
And have it ouput sixty-seven different keys to wow.

You are directly causing all of those keys to be pushed.
Nothing you do now, will cause one to fire off 'x' seconds in the future.

It doesn't matter if you push Shift Tilde.
And Toon A receives W + Q, Toon B receives W + E, Toon C receives S + Q and Toon D receives S + E.... for a spread out action.
Sure they're getting two keys each, from one press.
But everything that occurred is a direct result of something you did at the time the action occurred.



When someone is using IS Boxer.
And presses "1".
They get FTL Assist, the same as a macro going /assist Focus.
They get their IWT Keybind sent to their melee toons.
They get "1" sent to all their clients.
All their clients try to do the Mind Freeze, but only one can receive it at a time, and only a specific intervals set within the software... always as a result of a press, but not always occurring on every press.

All of it occurs now.
And is a result of something pressed now.


On release, which is another valid key event.
They get five or six keybinds all at once.

Because of the Global Cooldown, a maximum of one will fire off.
If one is on cooldown, and it is the one that would have fired off, nothing happens.
But if they spam the key quickly, they'll get a lot of keys.
Some can fire off (and will, if pressed when not on cooldown)
And when there is no GCD preventing them from firing off.
Other presses will result in a key that cannot fire off due to lack of Runic Power, lack of a Rune, something else has caused a GCD, etc.

[Ualaa]

Here are a few quotes from our Wiki.
Check out more of them, if you are so inclined.



"Multi-boxing is not in violation of our current policies, Varlex."

"Unlike the forms of botting you mentioned, multi-boxing requires user input and does not automate any aspect of gameplay. Each time an action is performed it is controlled by a real player sitting at their computer controlling multiple accounts. "

Aradek, Customer Service Member
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=5103947753&sid=1]Forums - World of Warcraft




"Allow me to set your argument to rest.


This:
Add in a 3rd party program. You press ONE button and all 5 screens react. How exactly is that fair/legit? It's not. The ability to control 5 computers at once with 1 single keyboard and 1 single press of a button is automation. The ability to make your characters cast their individual spells and skills at once by pressing 1 button is automation.

Is not automation by our standards. This is why multi-boxing is just fine.

The moment that single keypress initiates a string of actions not normally possible via our base macro system for an individual character, then that is a different matter. It is also a separate offense.

Multi-boxing, currently, is not a violation of our policies.

That is all."

Malkatorix, Blizzard Poster
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=5288579356&sid=1&pageNo=14#278]Forums - World of Warcraft




"As a soloist, you push a key and one thing happens on your account. As a multiboxer, you push a key and 1 thing happens on each of your accounts.

Automation would be timed macros, synced pathing, etc., not having the 1 key bound to Flash of Light on your Paladin and Fireball on your mage.

Clearly our definitions of automation differ greatly."

Belfaire, Blizzard Poster
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=5288579356&sid=1&pageNo=18#346]Forums - World of Warcraft




"Here's the thing - that's not 5 actions. It's one action, per character.

It would not be okay, if, for example, you had those macros set up so that you had one button to cast frost nova, wait out the global cooldown, blink, delay for global cooldown, then cast blizzard all in a single button press. That is, of course, several button presses.

So, to expand your definition: 'safe' multi-boxing commands are one button press = one action per character."

Malkorix, Blizzard Poster
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=9879768787&pageNo=1&sid=1#9]Forums - World of Warcraft

[Lax]

Well, I use my mouse for click healing with my paladin. And would like one button to IWT so my DKs circle the target while dpsing. All in one button! Is this possible or is this in violations with the TOS?
There isn't an IWT "command" in the game so it can't be used as part of a WoW macro. If you don't want it unless it can be done in a macro, then don't put this on your DPS keys.

There's nothing in the EULA or ToS that says you cannot mash keys, and you gain no ability to bot or other unfair advantage by mashing keys. You can do the same thing by physically connecting the two buttons so that they both get pressed when you press it. Blizzard (and other game companies) don't care that you're doing this, and neither do other players. The only people who do, are the guys on multiboxing forums who are obsessing over a GM who was trying his best to explain the difference between botting and not botting. The guy complaining on the wow forum that 1 guy playing 5 characters just killed him has no idea and probably wouldn't care, he hates you anyway.

Out of everything one could possibly come up with to be controversial regarding multiboxing, mashing keys is probably at the bottom of the list. People who have never heard of multiboxing do this with their programmable keyboards or mice, and don't give it a second thought.

/rant

Here is what you need to know:
1. You become "automatic" when something happens without you manually adjusting some input control (key, switch, dpad, joystick, throttle, slider, motion sensor, etc) to kick off that action at that particular time. Example... some gamepads have a continuous fire mode where it will repeatedly press a button over and over at some time interval. Any delayed action is considered to be a part of this category.
2. You become a "bot" when you sense game information (e.g. player's health) in order to automatically respond to it (e.g. heal, switch dps modes, etc)

These are both not allowed in WoW, or most other games. Neither of these things are available in ISBoxer (or most other multiboxing software).

[Nikita]

Thanks guys for the quick response. Loads of usefull information here, BUT what Im really asking for is: how do I make button "1" send IWT on first press to my slaves, and on second press my dps spells making my DKs circle around the target, dpsing it. Ofc I need to mash this button to make em circle, but its like this: p1 IWT, p2 DPS, p3 IWT, p4 DPS etc. Im using Octopus atm, so curious if there is a way to make this happen with a macro of some sort! How do the rest of the melee boxing community do it? Mash 2 buttons at the same time while click healing and moving with their healer? Kinda stressfull :/

[Atrocious]

I think the easiest way to do what you want is to make a multi step mapped key, then you can set it to perform the action on both press and release. Just thinking out loud here, but something like this:

1. IWT on DKs
2. Send keypress 1 to all windows
3. Make DKs step left(or right if you will)
4. Make DKS step forward.

If you set your mapped key to perform on both press and release, then in two button presses you dks will interact with target, perform attack, and move a bit in "circle" around the target. Not sure why you want them to circle, but..... To make them cicle a bit more, then repeat steps 3 and 4 a few more times until they move as far as you want. You will have to set up action target groups and put your DKs in it, but besides that it's pretty simple.

[Nikita]

If you spam IWT they circle around the target, thats the beauty of it :) this is purely for PvP! But how do I make 1 key send multiple actions on my alts?

[coglistings]

@OP
I honestly don't know where this post is going, if its for the OP really want something that isn't a TOU violation or if it is a "hey how did that one guy do that to me" kind of post...

@ualaa

your links are to the old website and do not redirect to anything other than the forum main page.

Anyway, here is some quotes that I found while looking for the blues guidence that you can add to your refference on the topic ...
"To very quickly start with the multiboxers, these players genuinely aren’t breaking any of the game Terms of Use as they still have to control everything that each one of the characters is doing – software can be used in order to replicate key presses multiple times across all the open game clients (which is why the characters will mostly perform all their actions at the same time), but there’s still a person at the other end of the PC pressing the buttons to determine what all the characters do."

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1710231935

ergo, if you didn't press the key when something happened ingame, you are violationg tou. another post regarding keyboard software macroing goes on to state the litmius test used.

"...So the question remains, is what you are trying to do possible within the in-game macro system..."
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2353276242?page=5

Ualaa touched on this with Lax following up when he talks about keymashing vs. key spamming. While I can spam four different keys on my computer, I can only mimic that spamming ingame when those keys are macros in a cast bar slot and not movement nor ITW keys (macro with clickcasting). As stated before, you can physically spam 2 different keys, no one cares. however, if you spam 1 key and the action is 2 non combinable key presses being spammed, this is not allowed.

I think Ualaa talks about how keyup and keydown are two different key events and thus although you are physically pressing and releasing a key IRL, you are creating two seperate wow key events. I accept that when dealing with movement, this is allowed otherwise, we would forever sit and spin till a mouse stearing event would occur. (an interesting way to get rid of keyboard turners). However, no where in the game keybindings interface can you bind something to a "keyup event" Thus we can not accept that a "keyup" event outside of movement directional keys is a valid seperate key event even if it is considered as such by the OS, there is no precedance in wow. Thus it is automation by Lax's and the blues standards stated

Lets face it, the wow community and the blues aren't up to date with what people are doing who multibox as the conversations don't really get pass the whole "one person controlling multiple accounts" part on EVERY multiboxer post that is out there. The dual-boxer community needs to let go of these old tired examples that no longer apply to current feature use as justification for automation.

so where does this leave this forum hijack?

from the litmus test described above, there is no way for you to hit one key and have it hit the IWT keybind and press another dps keybind until we can bind actionbar slots to keyup events, or until IWT can be called from a macro.

[Nikita]

Im not sure if im the dumbass here asking the wrong questions! All im asking is if its possible to make 1 button (which I will spam press/mash without any software) to press IWT on the first press, and on the second press do my dps rotation!

[coglistings]

Im not sure if im the dumbass here asking the wrong questions! All im asking is if its possible to make 1 button (which I will spam press/mash without any software) to press IWT on the first press, and on the second press do my dps rotation!

no, you need a software programmable keyboard or HKN or ISBoxer with keyup events occuring. not sure about your Octupus software soltion but I don't think it supports keyup events based responses at all.

[Khatovar]

Yes, it is possible, however, I don't know if Octopus can do it. It would require that Octopus is able to alternate your keypresses as no in game macro can be used for movement, which is what is required in using Interact with Target.

I haven't used Octopus, so I couldn't tell you if it has the ability to map key toggles like ISBoxer and HotKeyNet can. It may just be straight broadcasting where 1 is always going to be 1, where as in HKN and ISBoxer can use a means of toggling where 1=1 the first time, 1=2 the second time, etc.

[Nikita]

Thanks Khatovar and coglistings, THAT was the answer I was looking for. +132 rep for you guys! :)
If ppl would have read my question we wouldnt be having such a long post about it! So basicly I need to get ISBoxer or something similar to make this happen?

[Khatovar]

HKN and ISBoxer can do it, Keyclone might but don't quote me on it. I haven't used anything else, so I can't comment beyond that.

[Cptan]

I think what you need is no different from 2 step macro.

Never used Octopus, so can't advise on the setting needed. But, the post by Dancock may solve your problem

http://www.dual-boxing.com/showthread.php?t=34310

It basically changes action bar whenever you press the designated key, and thus you get macro 1, macro 2, macro 1, macro 2, ...... I didn't use this method as I am using script based AHK. Those have adopted this method seems to love it.

Good luck, and have fun. Let us know if your problem is solved or not.

[Khatovar]

That won't work. Nikita wants to be able to DPS and Interact with one button. Interact with target cannot be triggered from a macro, and as such can't be placed on an action bar. What they need is a means to be able to send different keys from the same key, since interact with target can only be called from a key, just like movement {forward, back, turn, strafe, jump}. They need to be able to send the key for interact with target on one press and call a macro on a subsequent press.

[Cptan]

I assume macro 1/sequence 1 is able to trigger the keybind of IWT, and macro 2/sequence2 goes to your dps cast rotation.

[Cptan]

since interact with target can only be called from a key, just like movement {forward, back, turn, strafe, jump}

hmm..... Did a Octopus google search, found not much info.... Will post if there is a solution to this.

[Ualaa]

Separate outputs on key down and key up, are only possible because the Warcraft Keyboard API acknowledges them as separate events.

If Blizzards API (which addons use) did not allow for events to be registered on press and/or release, then it would not register those events and no matter how we configured our boxing software -- one would be read and not the other.

It is a feature Blizzard specifically put into the game for addons to use, so you're not going to get into trouble when your software (which uses an addon, completely subject to Blizzards API, to generate the macros) can split events between press and release.




On spamming keys...
Sure you cannot macro IWT, with the Warcraft Macro Engine.

But you can keybind IWT to "4".
You can have a spell or macro on keys 1 through 3.
You can glue a popsicle stick across keys 1-4, and mash them all at once.

If an action is restricted to occur no more than once per time interval, such as every spell on the Global Cool Down... it will only fire off every so often, subject to when other actions have fired off.

Mind Freeze is off of the GCD.
We can freezly mash Howling Blast and Mind Freeze together (and if talented, Mind Freeze is Runic Power free... meaning it will be available to fire off on any press and then 10 seconds thereafter).
Only HB is on the GCD.

Interact With Target, like Mind Freeze, like /assist [target=focus], like "W" to move forward, like a lot of other actions is off of the GCD.
Meaning you can freely combine that keybind with another action as often as you like, and Blizzard does not mind this.
Under the current rules of the game, combining the IWT Keybind with another keystroke will not get you in trouble or subject your account to disciplinary action.




The key still being, everything you do is a result of something you push or release at the time it occurs.
Nothing is a result of something you pushed or released or clicked at some point previous to now.

If you search my post history, you'll find I've been using an IWT that has been integrated into my DPS spam sequences for close to a year and a half.
For eight months of the year, I'm often online for 12 hour stretches... so its not like Blizzard has not had opportunity to detect what I push and what it does.
I posted how to do this more than a year back, and can only assume others are using a similar technique.
No one has ever posted that they have been banned from use of IS Boxer (or other legitimate boxing softwares, at least to my knowledge).

Looking at the DK Manifesto (by Mosg2), it is assumed you will use IWT as an integrated part of your DPS.
The 4x DK + 1x Healer is probably the most popular team of the expansion.
The 4x Ret + 1x DK was probably the most popular team of the last expansion.
Both use IWT integrated into DPS Spam.
No one has been banned or suspended for this.
And a lot of users do precisely this.



As always use what you are comfortable using.

If Blizzard gives you a tool to use in their game, it is your option whether you want to use that tool or not.
If you are comfortable with it, then use it.
If you are not comfortable with it, then don't use it.

Bottom line.
It is a tool that Blizzard is okay with your using.
Decide if you want to take advantage of it, or not.

So far that means a boxing software such as HKN/IS Boxer, possibly others.
Or one of the addons that can send a different key output for Key Up and Key Down.

[Nikita]

Whats the name of these addons? Or would I better off with getting ISBoxer or HKN?

[Khatovar]

Separate outputs on key down and key up, are only possible because the Warcraft Keyboard API acknowledges them as separate events.

If Blizzards API (which addons use) did not allow for events to be registered on press and/or release, then it would not register those events and no matter how we configured our boxing software -- one would be read and not the other.

It is a feature Blizzard specifically put into the game for addons to use, so you're not going to get into trouble when your software (which uses an addon, completely subject to Blizzards API, to generate the macros) can split events between press and release.



And in case anyone missed it, Blizzard is taking the concept from addons like SnowfallKeypress (http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/info15078-SnowfallKeyPress.html) that allowed you to activate spells on press instead of release and making it part of the default UI.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/2356431#ui

Spells bound to a key now start to be cast when the button is pressed down by default, instead of waiting for the key to go up. This is an option that can be turned off in the Interface menu under Combat. Mouse clicking has not changed and operates on mouse click up


In any event, the game can't process commands any faster than it can, and using a split keydown/keyup action isn't going to change that. If you don't like keyup and keydown as "counting" as two individual actions, your can just as well send them as steps where first full keydown+keyup is IWT and second full keydown+keyup is DPS. That's the way I do it, no biggie.

[Nikita]

But I dont know how to set this up, probably piss easy. But I have no clue how to :P

[Khatovar]

1. Get ISBoxer or HotKeyNet
2. Follow the instructions in the appropriate links here (http://www.dual-boxing.com/showpost.php?p=322298&postcount=3) for basic setup.
3. Follow the instructions for setting up multistep for either ISBoxer (http://www.dual-boxing.com/showpost.php?p=312469&postcount=3) or HotKeyNet (http://www.dual-boxing.com/showthread.php?t=33160). While the HKN instructions don't specify using interact with target, you can simply change or add a toggle to refer to your IWT hotkey.

[coglistings]

But you can keybind IWT to "4".
You can have a spell or macro on keys 1 through 3.
You can glue a popsicle stick across keys 1-4, and mash them all at once.

Agree, but then again, no one glues a popsicle stick across these keys. Another point that needs to be dropped as an arguement period. Oh btw, have you ever tried hitting 4 keys at one physically, even with a popsicle stick? cause the game client doesn't always get all of the keys that are pressed...

Interact With Target, like Mind Freeze, like /assist [target=focus], like "W" to move forward, like a lot of other actions is off of the GCD. Meaning you can freely combine that keybind with another action as often as you like, and Blizzard does not mind this. nder the current rules of the game, combining the IWT Keybind with another keystroke will not get you in trouble or subject your account to disciplinary action.


Actually, you can't combine IWT with any keybind ingame since you can't macro IWT, it has to be its own keypress. This brings up another point, spamming multiple keys tied to a singular key. The justification used on this is that the keys that all of the macros are tied to can be placed on the bar, and then another macro that does a "click bar button" line for each of the bar is created and the key for that master bar button clicker is used. since IWT, or any movement key can not be scripted, macroed, inside the wow UI, you are again doing something that fails the litmus test, and is thus against TOU.



Bottom line.
It is a tool that Blizzard is okay with your using.
Decide if you want to take advantage of it, or not.

So far that means a boxing software such as HKN/IS Boxer, possibly others.
Or one of the addons that can send a different key output for Key Up and Key Down.

I think you missed the point of the exercise. that being that while you have used something for over a year or just a day and have not been banned isn't proof that it isn't against the TOU. It just that bliz doesn't abide by their own stated rules or that you haven't been detected yet. This leads you to the conclusion that Blizzard is ok with its use which can't be concluded from what is available.

BTW, continuing to ponder over this, I have become interested in if even programmable keyboards can be sensative to doing an full blow keypress on up. From what I have seen, this is not possible using non altered drivers. Thus your "keyup" events doesn't even exist outside of AHK, KHN, and ISboxer in a fashion that can be used ingame, or any other program. You "advantage" doesn't exist through means ingame because IWT can not be macroed to utalize clickbutton macros. thus, its fails the litmus test of being duplicatble inside of wow, and thus an exploitation of software to gain advantage not otherwise available to other players.

I reinterate, please stop kidding yourself that key-up events can be duplicated in a fashion to utalize interact with target. Spam macros and alternate bar states as much you want as a Turing machine would. But until there is a console command available that can be executed inside a macro, IWT spamming combined with a dps macro in a physical keypress which includes keydown keyup OS keyboard events fails legimacy.

I see the post about chaning the states at which a key press issues a command to theoccur, however, the blue post mention does not have anything said about being able to keybind for a keyup action, nor can the addon specifically bind an action to a key-up event.

Its continues to make me laugh about all of the signs that are ignored by community members on this. the current API waits for the keyup event to issue the command from the keydown event. Isn't this proof positive evidance that although currently, blizard considers a keypress to conclude only on the key - up action and thus key-up can't be considered its own funtion in the blizzard ui?

lolz

[Cptan]

Sorry Nikita, I dun have a Octopus solution for you yet.

Actually I do agree with Coglistings. I dun implement dual actions in a single key down up action, yes I am lazy, but more importantly I dun think it can be done using the game alone. Based on this thinking, I have concern also over using 3rd party software to suppress firing off actions within a certain period of time. Isn't it a well known fact that usage of timer/clock, sleep/wait function in broadcasting software when handling key/mouse click is BAD?

Regardless, I can live with a little inconvenience and hit my 'V' key (my IWT), with my dps key + assist tank key whenever it is needed.

[Lax]

You can glue a popsicle stick across keys 1-4, and mash them all at once.

Agree, but then again, no one glues a popsicle stick across these keys. Another point that needs to be dropped as an arguement period. Oh btw, have you ever tried hitting 4 keys at one physically, even with a popsicle stick? cause the game client doesn't always get all of the keys that are pressed...
Hi. you are a) wrong (credit goes to Kromtor: http://76.74.159.78/modules.jpg; technical note: he does not appear to have used GLUE to create this rig, so if you want to be right THAT bad you can be right) and b) missing the point of the thought experiment. If your glue rig isn't sufficient to press the keys you intended it to press, then your glue rig sucks. Don't blame the concept.

Did you ALSO know that many keyboards have a limitation on the number of keys they will recognize as being pressed at the same time? So if you glued a popsicle stick to 10 keys on the same keyboard, and press it, even the OS won't recognize them all as being pressed? Not all keyboards have this limitation, but if you want something that makes more sense than sucking at gluing things, here's a freebie ;)


Interact With Target, like Mind Freeze, like /assist [target=focus], like "W" to move forward, like a lot of other actions is off of the GCD. Meaning you can freely combine that keybind with another action as often as you like, and Blizzard does not mind this. nder the current rules of the game, combining the IWT Keybind with another keystroke will not get you in trouble or subject your account to disciplinary action.

Actually, you can't combine IWT with any keybind ingame since you can't macro IWT, it has to be its own keypress. This brings up another point, spamming multiple keys tied to a singular key. The justification used on this is that the keys that all of the macros are tied to can be placed on the bar, and then another macro that does a "click bar button" line for each of the bar is created and the key for that master bar button clicker is used. since IWT, or any movement key can not be scripted, macroed, inside the wow UI, you are again doing something that fails the litmus test, and is thus against TOU.

I think you missed the point of the exercise. that being that while you have used something for over a year or just a day and have not been banned isn't proof that it isn't against the TOU. It just that bliz doesn't abide by their own stated rules or that you haven't been detected yet. This leads you to the conclusion that Blizzard is ok with its use which can't be concluded from what is available.
Dude you're like a Tea Partier defending their vision of the constitution, rather than what the constitution actually says -- or without having read it at all. http://www.theonion.com/articles/area-man-passionate-defender-of-what-he-imagines-c,2849/ (http://www.theonion.com/articles/area-man-passionate-defender-of-what-he-imagines-c,2849/)
.... SO SAYETH THE TOU:
TWO KEYS INSTEAD OF ONE,
YOUR ACCOUNT IS DONE!

And all of this misses the entire point of the rules.

The rules are there to protect Blizzard. Blizzard wants to sell this game to millions of people, and are obviously doing well at it. Part of this is because they try to make sure that everyone feels they are on the same playing field, that your time investment in the game is worth as much as someone else's time investment in the game so that you don't feel cheated. When people feel cheated, e.g. because they see someone else hacking the game and getting something that they worked hard or spent a lot of time getting, they no longer want to play the game. Therefore, rules.

Nobody gives a shit if you are physically pressing 1 key, or physically pressing 2 keys, and they also have no idea whether you are physically pressing 1 key, or physically pressing 2 keys. There is absolutely no way for anyone to verify that you are in fact, pressing ALL of these keys yourself, unless you do something like take a video showing it. If you think there are less than HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people who have macros either through multiboxing software or other input device hardware/software, who make a single button that presses TWO buttons instead of just ONE, your head is in the sand.

I am not suggesting that you don't listen to GMs. You should. They are there to help make sure that everyone's game experience is enjoyable. But these are people, and they have their own opinions, their own way of describing things, and so on. They are just as imperfect as you. Let's not pretend that anything and everything a GM says should be (or should be considered to be) written into the TOU.

Here's an example... there used to be a feature where you could click on the minimap (or initiate any minimap ping, as I understand it) in order to aim your ground-targeted AOE spells. So people did that. GM Malkorix made the following statement:

Currently, using pre-recorded x,y coordinates (a function not supported by the default UI at all), to target or cast a spell is functionality outside of our Terms of Use.

I would strongly advise shying away from this program, if it is causing mouse moves (even simulated mouse moves) to occur in response to user inputs.

Mouse moves are the purview of the user, not a program.That's a pretty damning statement made against a particular product that I believe isn't allowed for discussion here. There are numerous possible interpretations of these GM's statements. There are some absolutely stupid conclusions that can be drawn from these statements, and these are things that would be considered a Golden Rule here on dual-boxing.com. For example... the middle statement implies that the ONLY thing that should be moving the mouse cursor, is "a mouse". But it's just a fucking cursor, it is a point on the monitor and it can be moved in many ways by many types of input controls. The fact that it's controlled by the mouse most of the time is kind of just a coincidence. Let's roll with this though. Couple more concepts. Some laptops (probably very few these days) used to have a little nub that you hold and press in a particular direction in order to move the mouse. Like a thumbstick without the stick. You can't physically move this nub around on your desk, you have to hold it in a particular direction like a joystick, and it can move the cursor faster or slower depending on how hard you are pushing it. And the cursor movement is probably handled... in software (DUN DUN DUN!). You could say that it "simulates mouse moves to occur in response to user inputs", and that therefore it "fails the litmus test and is against the TOU". Right? Wrong: There is nothing about this in the TOU. However, it did fail the GM's litmus test.

There's videos of people playing WoW with Kinect. Kinect can move the cursor, but only through software. You're standing there staring at the screen and waving your arm around, not touching the mouse. The software is causing mouse moves to occur in response to your inputs. Litmus test: failed.

Mouse broadcasting. Software is causing mouse moves to occur in response to your inputs. Litmus test: failed.

Recently I implemented Video Feeds in ISBoxer (where you can see part of window B from inside window A), and as of the last week or so, these feeds now have the option of being fully interactive -- including the mouse. Video Feeds can be scaled however you want, and placed anywhere. So technically, not only are mouse moves being simulated to the video feed source's window (window B), pre-determined location information is used to place the cursor in the right area in that window. Litmus tests: failed failed failed.

But I left something out. When I first implemented Video Feeds, I specifically avoided making them interactive AT ALL, because of these "litmus tests". Then I asked Blizzard about it, and by that I don't mean I petitioned to ask a GM, this is higher up in the ability-to-ban-you (and even detect-you) chain. I showed a screenshot of my GUI with the video feeds, described exactly how it would work, explained that this would involve offsetting and scaling the mouse position to match the feed, etc. After a couple weeks, the response I got is as follows: "While we can't officially endorse it from our end, this seems like a pretty cool feature to us." Litmus test: passed.

Moral of the story: GM does not equal EULA/TOU.

I also HAVE to quote this EQ2 GM http://eq2wire.com/2009/12/22/son-of-banhammer/ - original post linked from there, I google the eq2wire article when I need to find this:

There hasn't been a change to policy or the EULA.
That clause has always been there. That is what allows us to nuke the farmers and plat sellers that we all loathe so much.
If you're not doing something you shouldn't be doing, multi-boxing is fine.
Those who wish to look for loopholes to allow them to do it in shady ways always will. There is nothing in there that says you cannot multi-box. It just says you can't use a program to automate it.
People are over-reacting and troll-feeding. And really... holiday weight gain or no, the trolls don't need the extra calories.
Please stop trying to read into it anything that says we're going to start nuking our legitimate players for playing more than one account at a time...There was a huge uproar over whether multiboxers would be banned in EQ2 (p.s. it's been a year and a half and they haven't banned people for multiboxing). This is the response. The GM is describing you. The GM, and the article, are both saying exactly what is described on the "Is ISBoxer Allowed?" page: http://isboxer.com/index.php/is-isboxer-allowed. (Recommended reading!)

TL;DR: Litmus tests are bullshit

[coglistings]

Dude you're like a Tea Partier defending their vision of the constitution, rather than what the constitution actually says -- or without having read it at all.

.... SO SAYETH THE TOU:
TWO KEYS INSTEAD OF ONE,
YOUR ACCOUNT IS DONE!


attacking the messager does not prove your point, sorry. BTW i do love tea IRL, but do not attend tea partier parties, so I can't say if your description of me is accurate or not. I read the onion when I want a ridicious laugh, not when I want to quote foreign policy especially since they are an entertainment magazine and not a journalist source. But wait a second, didn't you just try to compare a person with imagined facts to a person who is imaginary? I think the Onion's joke is actually on you, especially since Mr Mortensen is not even imagined to be a tea-partier in the article. You do know that the articles in the news articles in there are made up right?.

None of my comments are based in a self created ideas but rather follow a clear logical train from blue posts that I have quoted and linked for your own verification, How that would related to somone who doesn't read what he quotes fails comparison naturaly accepted by most people. Thus, you are clearly makeing a personal attact instead of argueing your point.

My point on entering into the conversation on this is not to say, "HOW DARE YOU" but rather honesty to ourselves and the community when people ask about the legimicy of a feature, software, etc. I can not help you if you are cut by the truth. You have a decision on how you play the game and if you want to stick to the cores of what is stated allowed vs. what is more convient. As stated in my other post, there is a slim likehood of notice being taken on this, but it is still nether the less, a risk that is introduced and we need to not lie to ourselves, and then the community about it.


While we can't officially endorse it from our end, this seems like a pretty cool feature to us." Litmus test: passed.


Recently I implemented Video Feeds in ISBoxer (where you can see part of window B from inside window A), and as of the last week or so, these feeds now have the option of being fully interactive -- including the mouse. Video Feeds can be scaled however you want, and placed anywhere. So technically, not only are mouse moves being simulated to the video feed source's window (window B), pre-determined location information is used to place the cursor in the right area in that window. Litmus tests: failed failed failed.


its nice to see the extension of the topic from binding IWT to a keyup event being legitimate or not, to all of the other issues you have experienced in your development of ISBoxer, however, it confuses the point and brings in items not inheriantly relevant to the arguement. Also, the addition of those topics does not shed light on how IWT activation on a Keyup event is a legitimate under TOU. It however seems more like a cry out that "look at all of these other things that may have been bad before that are ok now. by ok, i mean no one I know of has gotten banned by it, and by now, I mean so far..." My arguement attempts to establish the precidance for why IWT on a keyup event is not permissable.

the litmus test I described is the replication of a software ability to have its actions recreated ingame using ingame macros/ mechanics. you incorrectly applied the litmus test to things that the exact description wouldn't allow at least three times in your post. I don't know if you just hate litmus tests cause you can taste the bitter flavor, but lets at least use the test for what it was intended for instead of trying to call it the Unified goverance test for all rules of wow.

I do see your point on the vagueness of the GM's comments when taken at face value, but when taken in context as to what was being disussed, his statement isn't over-reaching when applied to the topic. There is a resaon why the context of what was being discussed and the program being mentioned is so very important. In this case, I believe that he was reffering to a program that clicks on a xy cord not through mouse broadcasting or cursor broadcasting, but rather through just a keypress, and not a mousepress. That was what made it bad, since you couldn't bind a key to a predetermined mouse click action ingame. Nice try of a red herring though.

if you want to define a seperate litmus test of "some customer server tech approves of what I am doing", then by all means, go ahead. I hear it worked out for Athene pretty well when the chips were down. I believe that you were pointing toward this but I am uncertain how it furthers the arument since GM != Forum Customer Service Rep. I have quoted blue posts and built my arguements around the logic introduced by those posts. These are the same posts that have also been used to defend the legimacy of multiboxing in the wow community. Strange strat to toss dirt on the very core posts that establish the legimicy of multiboxers to argue a software features legimacy in multiboxing. lolz


If you think there are less than HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people who have macros either through multiboxing software or other input device hardware/software, who make a single button that presses TWO buttons instead of just ONE, your head is in the sand.

as stated on wow forums, programmable keyboards that spam keys for a user are not permitted by the TOU and is a bannable offense. remember the n52 bans? the horrible number of people that got their honnor reset plus 72 hour account suspensions over the use of poor automation? the people who kept on doing it after their 72 hour bans, got permibanned. Your GM Malkorix is pretty clear that one key means one key in his quotes listed on the dual-boxing wiki, even if it is just one other key.

Our RL counterexample is speeding tickets. IE, take a stretch of road that is usually unpatrolled and just begs to be sped on becuase of light timing, convience, etc. Now lets put a cop there one morning and have tickets issued to offenders. Your defense of "you are putting your head in the sand if you think (that 10 thousand other people don't speed on this roadway everyday)" will get you the same fine as if you pled guilty.

browsing the dual-boxing wiki under GM conversations, having one key do multiple key presses on events that can not be repeasted ingame pops all over the citations. So why do you use examples that follow "everyone is doing it," "as long as blizzard gets its money and the majority of customers are happy, I can do what I want," "GM's comments can be wildely constured," and my favorite "ZOMG look at the guy waving his arms and jumping IRL fail at getting his ingame character to do anything other than stand there and die from lvl1 critter attacks..... I WANT ONE" as an attempt to legitimise it?

bahh, probably going to be called a nazi and mass murder in the next posts, oh wellzs

[coglistings]

Oh I can't step away from it without actually saying it. I offer this to you for your pondering. The US constitution is very rarely quoted in any proceeding of constitutionality of an act or protection. What is is previous opinions of courts with reasonable juristiction over the topic and belief. Thus, just knowing what the constitution says gives you almost a fake understanding of what rights you and the state actually have and how to defend both the rights of victums and defendants. For this, you would have to read court opinions and engage in discussion. It actually is quite intriguing even if we are seen as "old school" by our europeen neighbors.

[Lax]

I must have hit a soft spot. ;)


You do know that the articles in the news articles in there are made up right?.Yes. I am glad you got the point of me linking to THE ONION that has a funny article about you! Lighten up! I never said the article called the man a tea partier, I said something relevant to what you're doing, then I added a link that that made me think of, and I wrote a poem! I'm happy that we can share and enjoy satire together.


as stated on wow forums, programmable keyboards that spam keys for a user are not permitted by the TOU and is a bannable offense. remember the n52 bans? the horrible number of people that got their honnor reset plus 72 hour account suspensions over the use of poor automation? the people who kept on doing it after their 72 hour bans, got permibanned. Your GM Malkorix is pretty clear that one key means one key in his quotes listed on the dual-boxing wiki, even if it is just one other key. Because it sounds like you missed it, here's a quote from me on page one of this thread: http://www.dual-boxing.com/showpost.php?p=326444&postcount=6

Here is what you need to know:
1. You become "automatic" when something happens without you manually adjusting some input control (key, switch, dpad, joystick, throttle, slider, motion sensor, etc) to kick off that action at that particular time. Example... some gamepads have a continuous fire mode where it will repeatedly press a button over and over at some time interval. Any delayed action is considered to be a part of this category.
2. You become a "bot" when you sense game information (e.g. player's health) in order to automatically respond to it (e.g. heal, switch dps modes, etc)

These are both not allowed in WoW, or most other games. Neither of these things are available in ISBoxer (or most other multiboxing software). ... so I'm glad that we're on the same page with automation. But that's not what I am talking about when I say "spam keys"... If you program your n52 to repeatedly press a key (or different spells in sequence for example), this requires delayed action that isn't happening at the time of them pressing the n52 key. I am talking only about pressing and releasing keys at the time you are pressing and releasing physical buttons or moving other physical controls (or in some cases, as with the Kinect, not even physical controls).


its nice to see the extension of the topic from binding IWT to a keyup event being legitimate or not, to all of the other issues you have experienced in your development of ISBoxer, however, it confuses the point and brings in items not inheriantly relevant to the arguement. Also, the addition of those topics does not shed light on how IWT activation on a Keyup event is a legitimate under TOU. It however seems more like a cry out that "look at all of these other things that may have been bad before that are ok now. by ok, i mean no one I know of has gotten banned by it, and by now, I mean so far..." My arguement attempts to establish the precidance for why IWT on a keyup event is not permissable.This is irrelevant because it doesn't need to be on keyup. It can be done at the same time as your attack. You can press your IWT key at the same time as your DPS key. Like holding 1 and 2. You can also hold W and A to go forward and left (with the default WASD).

Some people prefer to separate that into one on key down one on key up. Okay. Why not? This is two separate input events. WoW fires these separate events for Addons, too. They recently changed hotkeys to fire on press by default, with an option to fire on release, probably because some WoW Addons did that and people liked it. Did you ever notice that sometimes outside ideas get incorporated into games, because they're good ideas?

Some buttons are physically toggle buttons, they stick down when you push them, so that you have to push it again to pop it back up. Pretty much all keyboards have logical toggle buttons -- caps lock, num lock, scroll lock -- so it should be relatively simple for you to imagine changing that digital control to an analog control. A toggle button is like a switch. So say I have a switch control (and actually I do on a few keyboards), should I not be allowed to make that control do something when I move it to the left, and then something else when I move it to the right? What if I move the switch to the left and to the right really quickly? What if I have a whole panel of switches! ... now, why exactly did you want me to have to pay for a switch panel when I have this perfectly good keyboard, a G13, and a Razer Naga?

My entire point of describing various types of input controls and ways of interacting with the game is because there are some really genuinely cool things that people are doing, that these so-called "litmus tests" from blue posts (which as you have so kindly made sure to point out, are not necessarily GMs, but that's entirely beside the point) that are so often quoted, may not even be relevant to at all. These input controls are based on the precisely same things that you're saying should not be allowed.

Blizzard are working hard on real problems, they don't want to police petty bullshit like whether or not you are allowed to use a joystick, dpad, foot pedal, Kinect, dial, switch, push button, toggle button, etc to control your character. They just don't want you to automate or bot. That is what is in the TOU. Keyup/keydown is not in the TOU and you are not setting precedent...

Edit: Also on topic, Steelseries advertises their Officially Blizzard-licensed Shift Cataclysm keyboard (another keyboard I picked up) with this specific capability displayed in the Cataclysm keyboard promotion:

3. Record a sequence of actions, with delays included, and map them all to a single key
Source: http://steelseries.com/products/games/world-of-warcraft-cataclysm/steelseries-shift-cataclysm

[coglistings]

I must have hit a soft spot. ;) no way baby, Im tough, hurrrrr!

There is only 1 true newly argued item mentioned in this response that draws my attention and it is the physically connected device, wether it is a popicle stick, or mechincal in nature. that presses two keys at once physically. again, aside from the "see I told you it could be done" people, no one uses the physically connected device in their day to day wow play. What is used is programms that unlike the physicaly device, do not have failure rates, or wear down like a part on a car can. The software performs nearly perfectly every time it is used to with percision in ms, that can not be duplicated in the physical world by a human activating the pressing of both keys. To gear the percision, you would have to automate the humans contact with the keyboard, placing a mechincal mechasim on a wheel or rotor and gear to achieve this, which means the whole replacement of a human by mechanical automation fails the concept that "a human is behind every keypress"



Dude you're like a Tea Partier defending their vision of the constitution, rather than what the constitution actually says -- or without having read it at all.
personal attack, saying im uninformed...


Yes. I am glad you got the point of me linking to THE ONION that has a funny article about you! Lighten up! I never said the article called the man a tea partier, I said something relevant to what you're doing, then I added a link that that made me think of, and I wrote a poem! I'm happy that we can share and enjoy satire together.

attempt to say that it wasn't an attack at all, then later you beleive the article was about me. an attact inside of an apology? despite that I back up my comments with evidence and logic that still hasn't been touch. Are you sure the article isn't about you? I mean, you really do WANT your beliefs to be the norm.



This is irrelevant because it doesn't need to be on keyup. It can be done at the same time as your attack. You can press your IWT key at the same time as your DPS key. Like holding 1 and 2. You can also hold W and A to go forward and left (with the default WASD).


I have absolute no issue with a person who has dps key 1 and iwt key 2 and then physically spams the two using his fingers, palm, face, ass, etc. I just say that you can't have a dps key that also does IWT at the same time even if it is a key-up or keydown. Ualaa and Mercuro has gone to great lengths to educate the community about the logic of items being off of CD and how when a key is spammed, a highly opitimized rotation can be be realized. Ualaa also has established, as have you also I beleive, that IWT is off the cd and can be done at any time reguardless of the part of the cast bar you are in. My issue is having IWT on the same key as the dps key but binding it to the key-up and trying to call it a seperate key press action. You said that you can bind it to anyother key and press it at the same time. I would add, as long as you are physically pressing that other key, no harm, no foul. If HKN, AHK, or ISBoxer is pressing both keys for you at the same time you are physically only pressing one key, that is a "no no". I suppose you could break out the various devices. but I doubt their stability under regular utalization.

Moreover, I mean, look at all the really COOL stuff people are doing with the wow interface. Have you seen that wow interface that completely automates areans, battlegrounds, and mob grinding? I wonder when blizzard will bring that aspect into the game?


Steelseries advertises their Officially Blizzard-licensed Shift Cataclysm keyboard (another keyboard I picked up) with this specific capability displayed in the Cataclysm keyboard promotion:

blizzard licensed the graphics and world of warcraft game logo, not the rights to change interface ineraction with the game client. even if the keyboard could start running in game bots out of the box, it would still get you banned. welcome to licensing and mercantile law



should I not be allowed to make that control do something when I move it to the left, and then something else when I move it to the right? What if I move the switch to the left and to the right really quickly


that is a turing machine. I have no problems with how many states you want to have as long as the change into those states does not execute a key press inside the game with a new physical keypress and not the original keypress that pushed you into the next machine state. I have already gone to lengths describing how action bar changes is basically the same thing and is replicatable ingame. moot point



I am talking about when I say "spam keys"... If you program your n52 to repeatedly press a key (or different spells in sequence for example), this requires delayed action that isn't happening at the time of them pressing the n52 key. I am talking only about pressing and releasing keys at the time you are pressing and releasing physical buttons or moving other physical controls (then latter) Some people prefer to separate that into one on key down one on key up. Okay. Why not? This is two separate input events. WoW fires these separate events for Addons, too. They recently changed hotkeys to fire on press by default, with an option to fire on release, probably because some WoW Addons did that and people liked it. Did you ever notice that sometimes outside ideas get incorporated into games, because they're good ideas?


If key-up were something that blizzard would add to the default UI, then yes this would be a moot point. Until then, it is not moot. Please refer to my original post where I reason why IWT can not be put into dps key like other button names / macros can be. It is an advantage being used by our software that is not replicatable ingame with any addons. The addon you reffer to again "snowfallkeypress" was to help cause spell casting / ability triggering keybinds happen on the key-down action instead of the key-up action. it achomplishes this by injecting a keyup, mouse click up, event as soon as the registered key press occurs ingame. Please feel free to look at the LUA code for yourself, specifically, the AddOne funcitons.

It however, does not allow you to do a seperate action, keyboard event on click-up, key-up., etc. Blizzard's blue post on the topic says that they are considering changing the key-event trigger to be on the front end instead of teh back end on this, which would make this addon, completely trival. see above blue quote


My entire point of describing various types of input controls and ways of interacting with the game is because there are some really genuinely cool things that people are doing, that these so-called "litmus tests" from blue posts (which as you have so kindly made sure to point out, are not necessarily GMs, but that's entirely beside the point) that are so often quoted, may not even be relevant to at all. These input controls are based on the precisely same things that you're saying should not be allowed

I pointed out the litmus testing you were using becuase you weren't kind enough to say which litimus test you were looking at and then how it failed the test. you just said, litmus test failed I asked that you state what test you were applying since I could only conclude you were speaking of the litmus test I had brought up. I can't argue tests that aren't defined because no one other then you would know what you are testing for. Clearly, that that doesn't appear to be happening. How would you like your doctor telling you, "well, you passed all tests except for three. see you next year"

Clearly, I have hit a soft spot, as this discussion didn't imspire new objecive thought and a serious look at a community accept conduct that is regarded as completely legit. Again, you say the whole "blizard has better things to do" excuse, and that "they have bigger problems" followup, which does nothing to further discussion nor rebutt the arguement presented.

[Vecter]

lots of blah blah blah..
I just say that you can't have a dps key that also does IWT at the same time even if it is a key-up or keydown.
.

I don't understand this, are you the authority for Blizzard? Who says you can't? Show me specifically. We have been boxing for years and at no time has anyone ever been banned for using many of the software choices here on this site. ISBoxer, Keyclone, HKN, etc. It's a pretty simple concept...if you automate you break the rules. THAT automation or botting is pressing button, getting out of your chair, leaving the room and the game continues to play itself. That's it. Nothing complex. If you are sitting there pressing keys (i don't give a crap if its one key, 5 keys, the whole freaking keyboard,) playing the game, answering whispers from GM's then it is very doubtful you will have problems.

Plus if you feel something isn't right, no one ever said you HAVE to do it.

Common sense dude, that's all it is. Enough of the rambling BS please.

[Lax]

I make no apology for comparing you to someone who defends the constitution without understanding it, because you were attributing things to the TOU that are not in the TOU, and thus my explanation of why every blue post does not belong in the TOU, which included an anecdote from ISBoxer development.


Moreover, I mean, look at all the really COOL stuff people are doing with the wow interface. Have you seen that wow interface that completely automates areans, battlegrounds, and mob grinding? I wonder when blizzard will bring that aspect into the game? You're making a straw man just for the purpose of making a straw man. There is no way you thought I was either explicitly stating or implying that they would make that the game. I am explicitly stating or implying that there are features that are not currently available in the game, that Blizzard may or may not implement at a later date, that it is not against the TOU to use from other products.


blizzard licensed the graphics and world of warcraft game logo, not the rights to change interface ineraction with the game client. even if the keyboard could start running in game bots out of the box, it would still get you banned. welcome to licensing and mercantile lawThey didn't have to license anything, let alone let Steel Series set up a booth at BlizzCon. This advertising gets pushed in your face, you even get advertising on the official WoW site for things like this (if not specifically this product, perhaps even linking to this specific page). It's not like Blizzard is licensing their logo to gold farms, and advertising for them, even though Blizzard could make money off of it!


you just said, litmus test failed I asked that you state what test you were applying since I could only conclude you were speaking of the litmus test I had brought up.I think because I mentioned the words Tea Party and linked an article at theonion that you skipped reading the rest of my posts, because the litmus tests were defined in the quote from Malkorix, which specifically said that "because it is simulating mouse moves, you should stay away from the software." You don't get any more litmus test-y than that. We are specifically breaking this litmus test presented by a blue post, as I went on to describe several times, to achieve things that are not against the rules. Things that violate the so-called litmus test, but are not against the rules. The rules that are defined by the TOU, which is enforced by suspensions and/or banning.

You are right that it is not possible to emulate every type of hardware within the default (presumably meaning no additional WoW Addons) WoW user interface with a standard keyboard. This is why people buy hardware like the officially-endorsed-by-Blizzard SteelSeries Shift, and even software (like the SteelSeries Engine, installed by the Shift).

The question is whether or not you gain an unfair advantage over the other players by doing whatever it is you're doing. That is what I have been trying to explain to you. You can gain all sorts of advantages by owning an additional piece of hardware or software -- in fact, that's how these things get marketed (gain a competitive advantage! the steel series keyboard says). That doesn't make them unfair.

[Ualaa]

If you don't like Key Down... do these things.... Key Up.... do these other things.

You can disable the option to execute a step on press or release.
It is an option in a menu.

Then since the software is only executing steps on (take your pick, press or release -- but not both), you would spam twice as quickly.



My DK's...

On press of "1"
- Slaves assist the main.
- Melee toons receive my IWT keybind
- DK's do Howling Blast, which is not on "1".
- Paladin receives "1".

On release of "1"
- DK's receive the keybinds for Howling Blast, Frost Strike, Frost Strike, Necrotic Strike and Blood Strike, none of which are on 1 or 2.
- Paladin receives "2".

I could as easily spam twice as quickly... and only execute steps on key release.
Nonetheless, on press on one single key, I get:
- Assist
- DK's get IWT
- DK's get another keybind
- Pally gets a keybind

And on Step 2 (release in the press & release, or step 2 in the spam twice as quickly) either way, I get:
- DK's get five different keybinds
- Pally gets a different keybind.



Everything happens while I am at the computer.
It happens as a result of a key I push or release.
Nothing happens that is not a direct result of my input at the time it occurs.

Nothing happens if I walk away from the computer.

[coglistings]

I don't understand this, are you the authority for Blizzard? Who says you can't? Show me specifically. We have been boxing for years and at no time has anyone ever been banned for using many of the software choices here on this site. ISBoxer, Keyclone, HKN, etc. It's a pretty simple concept...if you automate you break the rules. THAT automation or botting is pressing button, getting out of your chair, leaving the room and the game continues to play itself. That's it. Nothing complex. If you are sitting there pressing keys (i don't give a crap if its one key, 5 keys, the whole freaking keyboard,) playing the game, answering whispers from GM's then it is very doubtful you will have problems.

Plus if you feel something isn't right, no one ever said you HAVE to do it.

Common sense dude, that's all it is. Enough of the rambling BS please.

Show me specifically: post number 10 in this thread. It may be between the first blah you saw and the second blah. :P

are you the authority for Blizzard?: I am no more an authority than anyone else on this site including yourself, which is why I quote customer service reps and I give citrations for those quotes. It is in that manner, the the arguements carry the weight that you think doesn't exists.

It's a pretty simple concept...if you automate you break the rules. THAT automation or botting is pressing button, getting out of your chair, leaving the room and the game continues to play itself. That's it. Nothing complex

I propose that Malkorix, Blizard customer service rep, has defined automation to be something different. The point is that the 'something' that occurs spools out without direct human involvement aside from the initial pull of the lever. That is automation. Even if it's only a single extra step.
http://www.dual-boxing.com/wiki/index.php/GM_Conversations#Defining_Automation

the difference between your def of automation and malkorix's def is more likely the difference between a good botting program and a bad n52 key macro. but from Malkorix's def, as soon as one key press does something more than one button press ingame, and it can't be replicated by use of ingame macros, it is also automation. even if it is IWT.

Plus if you feel something isn't right, no one ever said you HAVE to do it. - You are correct in that if I do not like something or if I feel uncomfortable, I don't have to use it. That is what I have said in most of the early posts I did on this. However, the OP asked a question if what he wanted to do would voilate the TOS is his first post. He received a generic, "Multiboxing is great, and blizzard loves us" response which was a cheap and misleading answer, but perfectly in line with all other posts regarding legicmacy of multiboxing available on this site. I am pushing you and other out of their safe bounds on this because, we need to be honest with ourselves if not for our own sake, for the sake of people who ask for advice on this.

Enough of the rambling BS please - I am happy to discuss points on what I have brought up with anyone who is interested, and for those who do not, can proceed to ignore them. No one is forcing you to read my posts :P

[Nikita]

All of you stop f**king up my thread! I simply asked for how to IWT target on first press, then dps on the second press on the same button. Not a debate about what is bannable or not! Still havent gotten any answer about this. Is there an easy way to do this without addons/software/hardware?

[coglistings]

I make no apology for comparing you to someone who defends the constitution without understanding it, because you were attributing things to the TOU that are not in the TOU, and thus my explanation of why every blue post does not belong in the TOU, which included an anecdote from ISBoxer development.

Fair enough, but since you opened exact wording of TOU, lets let the dog out of the yard
TOU
A. WHEN RUNNING, THE GAME MAY MONITOR YOUR COMPUTER'S RANDOM ACCESS MEMORY (RAM) AND/OR CPU PROCESSES FOR UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAMS RUNNING CONCURRENTLY WITH WORLD OF WARCRAFT. AN “UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM” AS USED HEREIN SHALL BE DEFINED AS ANY THIRD PARTY SOFTWARE THAT, WHEN USED SIMULTANEOUSLY OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE GAME, WOULD CONSTITUTE A VIOLATION OF SECTIONS 1, 2 OR 7. IN THE EVENT THAT THE GAME DETECTS AN UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM, BLIZZARD MAY (a) COMMUNICATE INFORMATION BACK TO BLIZZARD, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION THE ACCOUNT NAME, DETAILS ABOUT THE UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM DETECTED, AND THE TIME AND DATE THE UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM WAS DETECTED; AND/OR (b) EXERCISE ANY OR ALL OF ITS RIGHTS UNDER ANY BLIZZARD AGREEMENT, WITH OR WITHOUT PRIOR NOTICE TO THE USER.
http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/legal/wow_tou.html

under Section 2, Additional License Limiutations, blizzard goes on to state
A. use cheats, automation software (bots), hacks, mods or any other unauthorized third-party software designed to modify the World of Warcraft experience;

so without your blue posts where the Customer service reps attempt to clarify rules, you have TOU that says not to even use any software outside of the game client. Don't you like where your arguement landed you? :D

[coglistings]

Thanks Khatovar and coglistings, THAT was the answer I was looking for. +132 rep for you guys! :)
If ppl would have read my question we wouldnt be having such a long post about it! So basicly I need to get ISBoxer or something similar to make this happen?

sorry, thought we already had you taken care of :P the two of us agreed on that you would need something besides just the game client and even octupus to achomplish this.

if you follow ualaa post, he says how to do it with ISBoxer. There is a way to use HKN and AHK to do it as well since both can recognize the key-up keyboard action, but you have to edit your script to do it.

[Nikita]

Then ppl started commeting about certain addons of some sort? :)

[coglistings]

Then ppl started commeting about certain addons of some sort? :)

ya but the addons everyone was talking about, including snowfallkeypress, can't do what you want to do, since you have to achomplish two things in one action. that addon can't bind actions or even macros to keyup, keydown. it only allows you to take a character on your keyboard, and specify if it "accellerates" the key-up by sending the key-up action to the game client as soon as your keyboard sends it to the game client. It however, can't have one thing done ingame on keydown, and then something else on key-up.

if you aren't interested in a trial of Lavasoft to use ISBoxer, then try HKN and dump octupus. There is a specific key broadcast that is triggered on key-ups of certain keys that will get this achomplished.

Let me know if you need anything else man and GL :P

[MiRai]

Fair enough, but since you opened exact wording of TOU, lets let the dog out of the yard
A. use cheats, automation software (bots), hacks, mods or any other unauthorized third-party software designed to modify the World of Warcraft experience;

so without your blue posts where the Customer service reps attempt to clarify rules, you have TOU that says not to even use any software outside of the game client. Don't you like where your arguement landed you? :D
Microsoft Windows is software outside of the game client. Are you stating that ISBoxer is unauthorized third-party software?

[Aragent]

ya but the addons everyone was talking about, including snowfallkeypress, can't do what you want to do, since you have to achomplish two things in one action. that addon can't bind actions or even macros to keyup, keydown. it only allows you to take a character on your keyboard, and specify if it "accellerates" the key-up by sending the key-up action to the game client as soon as your keyboard sends it to the game client. It however, can't have one thing done ingame on keydown, and then something else on key-up.

if you aren't interested in a trial of Lavasoft to use ISBoxer, then try HKN and dump octupus. There is a specific key broadcast that is triggered on key-ups of certain keys that will get this achomplished.

Let me know if you need anything else man and GL :P

I would Like to point out that I have had an origanal WoW [Licensed Project] (Programable) Zboard for years
and the Zboard with wow keyset Macro's allow you to program it to do one action on press and one on release (so I must assume since its an approved product, that this feature then must be allowed.

[Khatovar]

All of you stop f**king up my thread! I simply asked for how to IWT target on first press, then dps on the second press on the same button. Not a debate about what is bannable or not! Still havent gotten any answer about this. Is there an easy way to do this without addons/software/hardware?

Nikita, you did get your answer. Yes, it can be done with ISBoxer or HKN or any multiboxing program that has the ability to toggle keypresses. No it can't be done any other way.

Coglistings, there's a lot of things that we do that can't be done with the default interface or "legit" LUA addons, not the least of which is broadcasting to multiple clients. But it is NOT automation. Just like it's not automation when I press ONE single key on my Razor Naga and it sends WoW Ctrl+Shift+Alt+PgUp. You get to decide what keypress goes to what client. Afterall, you don't send all keys to your slaves at all times, right? That's not something that is possible without a program that can filter your keypresses between clients.

At the very basest of basics, we are all sending every single keypress to a third-party program, and it is THAT program that sends the commands to each individual WoW. And if you want to go to the letter of the law, we could very well say it is cheating, because technically, we're not playing the game, we're playing the app. The app is technically what is interacting with the game. That right there is the argument that people have been throwing out since the dawn of time about why multiboxing is cheating.

But, time and time again, Blues come back and say that is perfectly legit for us to multibox as long as it remains multiboxing and not botting or using automation. Time and time again, they say that multiboxing is not only ok, it also does not violate the oh so holy of holies, "spirit of the game." So, WoW doesn't recognize individual Keydown Keyup actions, well, it's not RECEIVING keydown keyup commands. Our boxing programs are. To these programs, a key down vs keyup is just the same a "full" keypress of 2 completely different keys.

They are not altering the game client to make it think keydown and keyup are individual events, or "saving" such actions to send as a delayed string of commands, all they are doing is sending the commands it receives as it receives them. There is no automation in that. It is not altering the packets the game is sending and receiving between the individual client and the game server. It is not hacking. It is not doing things without physical input for each action, that is, a key press to do the first and a key release to do the next. It is not botting. Jamba follow strobing and follow after combat are closer to automation/botting, and that is perfectly legit programming done within the confines of the game's LUA.

And best of all, if you don't want to use such "questionable" tactics, then you don't have to. *I* don't use Keydown/keyup for IWT and DPS, but I am happy to defend its use. These same people you are arguing with are also be the very first people to call out actions that ARE stepping into automation, botting or hacking.

Now, the question has been answered. This debate has derailed the OP's thread and has gone on long enough without going anywhere but further OT.

/thread