Finally ran into Mudd in AV -- 5x shammy vs 4x lock

[Vyndree]

Of course, my bg group leader was an afk'er and wouldn't move me into my own group so I didn't have the benefit of stacked groundings. >.<

He hits like a truck, though. :) I had to /afk out after a while thanks to harassment from the afk exploiting bg leader (need time and peace/quiet to report him) but I did run into Mudd twice and both times he stacked 4 Seed of Corruptions on me and GG shammies. If only I had my TOTEMZ... :(

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=4493713218&sid=1

[Diamndzngunz]

Hes rocking the Carrot on a stick. EPIC I tell ya

[Xzin]

This is conclusive proof that Horde > Alliance.

Not only did you get beat by 4 Horde (vs your 5 alliance) but he beat you so badly, he made you afk out!

[Gande]

Not only did you get beat by 4 Horde (vs your 5 alliance) but he beat you so badly, he made you afk out!ROFL =)

[crebble]

EM NS trinket and CL

they'd die fast... besides that you have 5 that can heal

[Vyndree]

This is conclusive proof that Horde > Alliance.

Not only did you get beat by 4 Horde (vs your 5 alliance) but he beat you so badly, he made you afk out!

You should've seen the language the battlegroup leader was spouting out. Apparently, after I left, he got chewed out by the rest of the BG for making the multiboxer leave since "they have no chance to win anymore".

Deserved it, imo. Nub alliance can't work as a team.



Besides, asking 5 shaman to play without using their totems is like asking a warlock to play without using a single shadow spell.

[crebble]

"Besides, asking 5 shaman to play without using their totems is like asking a warlock to play without using a single shadow spell."

not really

[Texic]

All the warlock has to do is spam seeds and 4 or 5 on each shaman is pretty devastating. Add dot's and its almost impossible to do anything if you are just trying to heal yourself and don't have totem support. I guess depending on who gets the jump things could change but SL warlocks resist rates don't help the situation.

[Diamndzngunz]

This is conclusive proof that Horde > Alliance.

Not only did you get beat by 4 Horde (vs your 5 alliance) but he beat you so badly, he made you afk out!On my side in AV Alliance win all the time. WSG horde always win, AB tie, EOtS Tie.

Alliance sucks at BG's and it pisses me off.

[Vyndree]

"Besides, asking 5 shaman to play without using their totems is like asking a warlock to play without using a single shadow spell."

not really

Shaman who don't utilize their totems properly are just gimped mages in mail.

Tremor totem / Grounding totem / healing stream totem = vs locks
Tremor totem / Wrath of air / Fire nova / Healing stream = vs warriors
Stoneskin totem / Wrath of air / Fire nova / Poison cleanse = vs rogues
Stoneskin totem / Wrath of air / searing totem / poison cleanse = vs hunters
Earthbind totem (I hate aoe) / Grounding Totem / Searing totem (fire nova if they're in range/aoeing) / Healing Stream totem = vs mages
Tremor totem (add 1 earthbind 5 tremor if they're heading in to fear you) / Grounding totem (mana burn) / healing stream totem (or mana if you've been mana burned) / searing = vs priests
Earthbind totem (druids hate earthbind -- hard to shift out and also get range before it reapplies) / Grounding totem / healing stream totem / searing totem = druids
Stoneskin totem / Grounding totem / healing stream totem / searing or fire nova = paladin



Sure, a shaman can still PLAY without using totems -- a warlock can spam immolate and still PLAY. But they're not utilizing their full potential.

Here's the difference -- if I had stacked grounding totems and a spell hit at EXACTLY the same time -- like a group of 4 dots -- ONE grounding totem would be eaten if I were in the same group. If I am not in the same group, FIVE grounding totems will be eaten per dot.

Now tell me how not being in the same group with my shamans won't gimp me as much as a warlock who can't use shadow spells?

[Xzin]

Panties ---> Bunch.
I tease because I care.

Seriously though, I read you going on about totem strategies. But when I was 5 boxing mages + priest, I had no strategy against any single targets. They only lived for a second or two anyway. DPS + Heal and AoE as many targets as possible really. None of this "ice shield against melee" or "mana shield against warriors and rogues but not hunters". It was pretty much target --> gibbed target --> gibbed target --> gibbed. Rinse and repeat.

Ok, sure - rank 1 Blizzard against rogues, etc. But by and large that was just fluff that got in the way of PvP. 5 vs 1 is so lopsided that you don't counter them. You just destroy them and heal right through it.

[Vyndree]

Panties ---> Bunch.
I tease because I care.

Seriously though, I read you going on about totem strategies. But when I was 5 boxing mages + priest, I had no strategy against any single targets. They only lived for a second or two anyway. DPS + Heal and AoE as many targets as possible really. None of this "ice shield against melee" or "mana shield against warriors and rogues but not hunters". It was pretty much target --> gibbed target --> gibbed target --> gibbed. Rinse and repeat.

Ok, sure - rank 1 Blizzard against rogues, etc. But by and large that was just fluff that got in the way of PvP. 5 vs 1 is so lopsided that you don't counter them. You just destroy them and heal right through it.

Stam has grown, Xzin. My shammies are sporting a crit-based elemental spec against resilience heavy pvp gear (not necessarily Mudd -- I didn't armory him but he didn't seem to be wearing much pvp gear that I noticed). They're sporting a lovely 400 +spelldamage against instant cast dots. Offense, at this moment in time and at their current gear and my opponents' arena gear, is not my strong point. Focused damage and defense are my strong points until I can get the gear to insta-gib people. Sure, if my elemental mastery is up and my trinkets and I have no spell pushback I can insta gib ONE person. But I don't see how that has anything to do with the thread.

This is not me vs 1 person. It's me vs a multiboxer. Everyone knows a multiboxer's plus side is high burst and low defense -- without my totems, I am INCREDIBLY low defense.

So, I don't know what you're getting at with your 5 v 1... Mudd plays 4 warlocks, I play 5 shaman. My totem strategy works the same with 4 warlocks as it does with 1 -- in fact, it's even MORE critical given the nature of grounding totem.

[thinus]

The other day I was WSGing for fun with just my rogue. Ran into a shammy with 18K hp holding the flag with 2 paladin healers. Yes, that is 18K hp on a shaman. Trying to get the flag was an exercise in embaressment.

[Monkofdoom]

Indeed plenty of people now run around with 15 - 18k health, others with 350 + resilience which soon cuts down your crit damage.

Pre tbc I can kill people in seconds with just 1 character, these days 5 full damage crits and they are still standing fairly happily.

[Ripper]

Hmm. Whatever happened to the other people rolling 4 locks and a priest? I remember that was fotm for a while. You would think you'd see a lot more lock groups in BG's.

Now that I think about it, I might go old school Xzin style and make 4 mages and a priest. I like my shamans, but I'd imagine mages would be a lot more fun in BG's. Something weird about mages, too. When I play them, they're the most boring class in the game. When I don't play them, I miss em'!

[Stealthy]

A Priest & Lock combo really shine in BG's where multiple SoC can quickly drop groups of players, but not so great in Arena's where the priest can be focus fired down pretty quickly.

Shamans are great in Arena's where bursting down one or two players has a major impact on the game, but not so great in BG's becuase of a lack of AoE and the reliance of being placed in the same group to be effective.

Vyndree's point about not being in a group reducing Shaman's effectiveness in BG's (or anywhere for that matter) is totally valid. Stacking grounding totem is our number 1 way of mitigating spell damage (apart from wearing +resilience gear). Stacking healing stream is number 2.

Cheers,

Stealthy

[opt]

Tremor totem / Grounding totem / healing stream totem = vs locks
Tremor totem / Wrath of air / Fire nova / Healing stream = vs warriors
Stoneskin totem / Wrath of air / Fire nova / Poison cleanse = vs rogues
Stoneskin totem / Wrath of air / searing totem / poison cleanse = vs hunters
Earthbind totem (I hate aoe) / Grounding Totem / Searing totem (fire nova if they're in range/aoeing) / Healing Stream totem = vs mages
Tremor totem (add 1 earthbind 5 tremor if they're heading in to fear you) / Grounding totem (mana burn) / healing stream totem (or mana if you've been mana burned) / searing = vs priests
Earthbind totem (druids hate earthbind -- hard to shift out and also get range before it reapplies) / Grounding totem / healing stream totem / searing totem = druids
Stoneskin totem / Grounding totem / healing stream totem / searing or fire nova = paladin
Do you seriousally have all these combinations bouned? Im very impressed if you do, and if you are able to use them properly every time.
Next question if you do, are they bound to 1 for each sequence or is it 1 key per totem school, currently I have NUMPAD1-6 set to different totems, but i really want to set them up more effeciently, for example have a castsequence for NUMPAD1 to setup a certain totem sequence, like vs warlocks. But trying to remember which one is which would just be a nightmare.

[Vyndree]

Tremor totem / Grounding totem / healing stream totem = vs locks
Tremor totem / Wrath of air / Fire nova / Healing stream = vs warriors
Stoneskin totem / Wrath of air / Fire nova / Poison cleanse = vs rogues
Stoneskin totem / Wrath of air / searing totem / poison cleanse = vs hunters
Earthbind totem (I hate aoe) / Grounding Totem / Searing totem (fire nova if they're in range/aoeing) / Healing Stream totem = vs mages
Tremor totem (add 1 earthbind 5 tremor if they're heading in to fear you) / Grounding totem (mana burn) / healing stream totem (or mana if you've been mana burned) / searing = vs priests
Earthbind totem (druids hate earthbind -- hard to shift out and also get range before it reapplies) / Grounding totem / healing stream totem / searing totem = druids
Stoneskin totem / Grounding totem / healing stream totem / searing or fire nova = paladin
Do you seriousally have all these combinations bouned? Im very impressed if you do, and if you are able to use them properly every time.
Next question if you do, are they bound to 1 for each sequence or is it 1 key per totem school, currently I have NUMPAD1-6 set to different totems, but i really want to set them up more effeciently, for example have a castsequence for NUMPAD1 to setup a certain totem sequence, like vs warlocks. But trying to remember which one is which would just be a nightmare.

Nope. I have a button for each.

I like flexibility. Every now and then you'll get an idiot who never uses their fear button, or a complex group that means dropping different totems situationally.

My ctrl bar is for totems:
ctrl1: 4x healing stream, 1x mana spring
ctrl2: various air buffing totems - wrath, windfury, windwall, GoA, and even nature resist since there's nothing better
ctrl3: various earth totems - stoneskin, str, 3x tremor
ctrl4: grounding x5
ctrl5: staggered tremor
ctrl6: totemic call (I use a split keyboard so it's easy to find)
ctrl7: Poison cleanse x1 disease cleanse x2 nothing x3

On my x-keys I keep my fire elementals, heroisms, and totem of wraths as they are not as time critical.

searing totem is 6
fire nova is 7
magma is 8

Besides my tremor castsequence, I don't sequence any of my totems. Stunlocks are too common and I may miss laying a grounding totem that could save my ass.

[Zseth]

I feel a server transfer just to face you in AV vyn :P

[crebble]

well using only 1 grounding wouldve been enough to kill 2 of his chars before the first seeds on you. meaning only 2 seeds to deal with while you kill his other 2...

ive seen his gear on armory and its not heavy duty to deal with. kinda like xzin said gibb rinse and repeat.
i know exactly what locks can do and if you dont believe me you can check http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Magtheridon&n=Stickmeister
and while youre at it check the 4 bezze's in the same guild
4 weeks at 70 now and over 6k kills 255 resi 9k+ hp and around 700 dmg 33% crit. so i guess i know how shamans work aswell... tho its only 4 not 5 ^^

played tons of AV EOTS AB WSG and can tell that i havent had ANY problems doing it except i dont often have them in same grp meaning i have to play better since i cant utilize 4X all totems... still not too hard to own a couple allies with 2 times better gear...

well good luck with him next time tho!

/stick

edt: added link

[Vyndree]

I feel a server transfer just to face you in AV vyn :P

I'm on the PvE ptr. ;)

Why PvE? The rest of my guild is headed there to test out sunwell.

[Majo]

i know exactly what locks can do and if you dont believe me you can check http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Magtheridon&n=Stickmeister
Nice lock!

[crebble]

"Nice lock!"

ty =)

[Suvega]

I feel a server transfer just to face you in AV vyn :P

I'll give you mad strats. We've taken our two teams to the World Arenas (world locations of arenas where it is FFA) to see how we do against each other. And basicaslly it boils down to this:

1) Get to her group as quickly as possible. F'ing MOVE SON.

2) Aoe and move around, spam heals

3) She starts lighting up like a candle (trinkets, EM etc), Fear + Frost nova. That'll keep her near you enough to keep aoeing.



Bad things happen when:

1) You don't get to her group before she see's you (expect to take a 6-7k spike).

2) you think you can 'range' her down. You can't. Don't try.



If for some reason you ARE stuck at range, Wait for the grounding to get refreshed, and use AM or a fireblast cast sequence (so you take down all her grounding individually, instead of one wave of fireblasts gettting eaten by one.), and throw a pom at her lead (velani).

[Vyndree]

I feel a server transfer just to face you in AV vyn :P

I'll give you mad strats. We've taken our two teams to the World Arenas (world locations of arenas where it is FFA) to see how we do against each other. And basicaslly it boils down to this:

1) Get to her group as quickly as possible. F'ing MOVE SON.

2) Aoe and move around, spam heals

3) She starts lighting up like a candle (trinkets, EM etc), Fear + Frost nova. That'll keep her near you enough to keep aoeing.



Bad things happen when:

1) You don't get to her group before she see's you (expect to take a 6-7k spike).

2) you think you can 'range' her down. You can't. Don't try.



If for some reason you ARE stuck at range, Wait for the grounding to get refreshed, and use AM or a fireblast cast sequence (so you take down all her grounding individually, instead of one wave of fireblasts gettting eaten by one.), and throw a pom at her lead (velani).

You suck.








That is all. ;)

[Boylston]

You suck.


That is all. ;)Suvega,

You're either a.) really dumb to anger your multi-boxing girlfriend OR b.) hoping for make-up nookie. ;)


The biggest problem my gimpy little shamans have faced so far in BGs are rogues. Partly because they all outgear the team, but partly because they don't die fast enough to a fire nova + shock barrage. 2 rogues (which is usually the case once I attract enough attention) is even worse news...

Maybe this will get better as I hit 70 and gear up, but yeowch!

[Suvega]

You suck.


That is all. ;)Suvega,

You're either a.) really dumb to anger your multi-boxing girlfriend OR b.) hoping for make-up nookie. ;)


The biggest problem my gimpy little shamans have faced so far in BGs are rogues. Partly because they all outgear the team, but partly because they don't die fast enough to a fire nova + shock barrage. 2 rogues (which is usually the case once I attract enough attention) is even worse news...

Maybe this will get better as I hit 70 and gear up, but yeowch!
Just wait till you have one mage in the middle of your shamans, with fire ward (lol fire nova totems?). And arcane exlposioning the crap out of you.

HELOOO spell pushback. :P

[Vyndree]

You suck.


That is all. ;)Suvega,

You're either a.) really dumb to anger your multi-boxing girlfriend OR b.) hoping for make-up nookie. ;)


The biggest problem my gimpy little shamans have faced so far in BGs are rogues. Partly because they all outgear the team, but partly because they don't die fast enough to a fire nova + shock barrage. 2 rogues (which is usually the case once I attract enough attention) is even worse news...

Maybe this will get better as I hit 70 and gear up, but yeowch!

I only have problems with cheat death rogues. FS them, then fire nova + FS after the nova. By that time cheat death kicks in and they're either running with a searing totem ready for them or they're dumb enough to stick around. Don't bother trying to LB them, they'll just LOS you by running in circles. Just heal, shock, and let fire totems do the rest.

Don't forget poison cleanse. And if you have a resto shammy and they try to dps the one with the giant earth shield and Nature's Guardian, just laugh and ignore them. Stupid rogues are harmless.

[Nepida]

well using only 1 grounding wouldve been enough to kill 2 of his chars before the first seeds on you. meaning only 2 seeds to deal with while you kill his other 2...

1 totem would absorb 1 seed, the 3 others would hit, and trust me SoC hurts like a bitch even coming from 1 person if you aren't prepared. Coming from 3 is deadly. And this is assuming that its an AV where you can get a "1"v"1".

[Suvega]

well using only 1 grounding wouldve been enough to kill 2 of his chars before the first seeds on you. meaning only 2 seeds to deal with while you kill his other 2...

1 totem would absorb 1 seed, the 3 others would hit, and trust me SoC hurts like a bitch even coming from 1 person if you aren't prepared. Coming from 3 is deadly. And this is assuming that its an AV where you can get a "1"v"1".
Thats not true. 1 grounding totem would eat all 4. why? They're all cast at the same time, (he's a multiboxer). Lag does wonderful things with grounding totems. Flight times ftw.

[crebble]

"Thats not true. 1 grounding totem would eat all 4. why? They're all cast at the same time, (he's a multiboxer). Lag does wonderful things with grounding totems. Flight times ftw."

precisely =)
well the only real problem with locks sofar for my parts are the affliction ones with insta fear!
one fear can kill a whole squad if you dont have any breaker up :thumbdown:

[Vyndree]

Adding a link (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=2366656703&sid=1) to the official wow forums discussion when grounding totem was nerfed to die after absorbing a dot or non-damage spell.

Here's some quotes:

Note: it will STILL piss people off by absorbing multiple spells if they land at roughly the same time. IE, casted spell followed by an instant. Fireball > PoM pyro = both absorbed. Mindblast > SWD = both absorbed. etc.



The only major issue with grounding totems that mages had was where a mage cast a travel time spell (fireball) and then immediately cast fireblast, killing the totem yet still absorbing the fireball.

From what I read here, that won't change.

This change now allows you to spam back to back polymorphs on shamans now though.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That really is working as intended if you think about it. The elemental forces are pulling the bolt to the totem, while the fire blast is absorbed, destroying the totem. The bolt continues to travel to the now dead totem.

There are a lot shadier things in the game WAI than that. And that's not even taking the cooldown into effect. Last I checked, some lame spellsteal or purge is the norm for grounding totem while the massive bolt or pyroblast comes in freely.


.. or they cried because they would send a shadowbolt or something at the shaman followed by an instant cast and they would both be consumed because of unfixable lag and they were too retarded to kill the grounding totem first...

The key here is that grounding totem does not die until a spell has actually been absorbed. With anything, there is a flight time -- even invisible flight time for dots. When you cast a fireball, the damage doesn't happen to the grounding totem until the fireball actually lands. Any fireballs mid-air and heading towards the grounding totem will now be heading towards an already dead target.

Ever have your Lightning Overload proc on a barely dead target? Or ever shoot a lightning bolt at something that died just moment after the lightning bolt left your hands? Notice the LO just hurtle into a dead body? Same thing.

With DoTs, they use the same "flight time" mechanic only that it's as close as possible to "instant" as technology allows. With lag in MMO's, this means the "flight time" is usually a fraction of a second. Because a multiboxer and all of his dots exit his warlocks' hands at the same time, the grounding totem isn't destroyed until the first dot lands. Since all the other dots are already "mid-flight" and heading towards a dead grounding totem, they don't land on any of my characters.

Make sense?

[Suvega]

Adding a link ('http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=2366656703&sid=1') to the official wow forums discussion when grounding totem was nerfed to die after absorbing a dot or non-damage spell.

Here's some quotes:



Note: it will STILL piss people off by absorbing multiple spells if they land at roughly the same time. IE, casted spell followed by an instant. Fireball > PoM pyro = both absorbed. Mindblast > SWD = both absorbed. etc.





The only major issue with grounding totems that mages had was where a mage cast a travel time spell (fireball) and then immediately cast fireblast, killing the totem yet still absorbing the fireball.

From what I read here, that won't change.

This change now allows you to spam back to back polymorphs on shamans now though.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That really is working as intended if you think about it. The elemental forces are pulling the bolt to the totem, while the fire blast is absorbed, destroying the totem. The bolt continues to travel to the now dead totem.

There are a lot shadier things in the game WAI than that. And that's not even taking the cooldown into effect. Last I checked, some lame spellsteal or purge is the norm for grounding totem while the massive bolt or pyroblast comes in freely.


.. or they cried because they would send a shadowbolt or something at the shaman followed by an instant cast and they would both be consumed because of unfixable lag and they were too retarded to kill the grounding totem first...

The key here is that grounding totem does not die until a spell has actually been absorbed. With anything, there is a flight time -- even invisible flight time for dots. When you cast a fireball, the damage doesn't happen to the grounding totem until the fireball actually lands. Any fireballs mid-air and heading towards the grounding totem will now be heading towards an already dead target.

Ever have your Lightning Overload proc on a barely dead target? Or ever shoot a lightning bolt at something that died just moment after the lightning bolt left your hands? Notice the LO just hurtle into a dead body? Same thing.

With DoTs, they use the same "flight time" mechanic only that it's as close as possible to "instant" as technology allows. With lag in MMO's, this means the "flight time" is usually a fraction of a second. Because a multiboxer and all of his dots exit his warlocks' hands at the same time, the grounding totem isn't destroyed until the first dot lands. Since all the other dots are already "mid-flight" and heading towards a dead grounding totem, they don't land on any of my characters.

Make sense?Furthermore, SoC actually HAS a flight time. You can see the little black shit of death coming at you roughly at fireball speed.

[Vyndree]

Furthermore, SoC actually HAS a flight time. You can see the little black shit of death coming at you roughly at fireball speed.

Lrn2 not massive quote.

True, but the same thing applies to other dots besides SoC so it might as well be said. Dots have an invisible flight time -- but it's so small it's barely noticable.

[Jaws5]

Well, I do know that a 5 boxer facing a 5 shammy boxer is a pain. I appear your 1 gronding totem takes out all 5 casts on one totem. Sucks if they are POM casts. I have fun with most grps in AV as shadow priest and 4 aff locks. 4 imps make a nice side view damage. its very hard to out heal all 5 doted wiht 16 dots then one trageted for mine flay and 4 life drain. 90 percent of the time my BG leader will not put us in same grp. I have learned to play though that , gimps your healing but you can work though that with locks. one way i have found to get 3-5 in same grp is wait to join av until Que to down to 50secs then all 5 join. works for me

[Mudd]

Hi Vyndree. I really should check these forums more often :-).

Every AV since that meeting I've been checking the allied roster for your team. It took a while to realize that it was another multiboxer that I was up against. I have 5 locks, but I may have only gotten 4 into that game. Waiting ~1-2 hours only to find you got a split queue really sucks.

Your grounding totems scare the crap out of me, but I have a special macro just for you. If all else fails, my carrot on a stick will let me get away quickly!

See you in BGs. I hope you get a proper group next time, its going to be fun.

[Vyndree]

Hi Vyndree. I really should check these forums more often :-).

Every AV since that meeting I've been checking the allied roster for your team. It took a while to realize that it was another multiboxer that I was up against. I have 5 locks, but I may have only gotten 4 into that game. Waiting ~1-2 hours only to find you got a split queue really sucks.

Your grounding totems scare the crap out of me, but I have a special macro just for you. If all else fails, my carrot on a stick will let me get away quickly!

See you in BGs. I hope you get a proper group next time, its going to be fun.

Ya, I heard you mention 5 locks but when I was in AV I only saw 4. You should've seen how pissed I was that it was one of the FEW av's I've gotten with a bg leader who wouldn't give me my own group... In all the AV's I've done I've only run into stubborn people maybe... 3 times?

Glad you're on the dual boxing forums -- WoW forums annoy the crud out of me. Am I the only one who never gets results out of WoW forum searches?