Best approach for arena?

[Ualaa]

Obviously it is quite a while after the start of the season.

I've decided to start going for Conquest points on the Pally/DK's team.
Unfortunately, it's not that easy to get wins.

My DK's are mid 2.6k resiliency and 108k health unbuffed.
They are pvp hit capped and have 220 spell penetration between 3 blue gems and the cloak enchant.
They're missing four pieces of honor gear, so that will add a little to them still.
They're using iLV 318 2H Axes.
DK's: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/cenarius/cuddl%C3%A9s/simple

My Pally is barely over 3k resiliency, and has 112k health unbuffed.
She has prioritized Spirit and Haste.
She has a 325 Mace and the 359 (AH) Shield.
There are three more pieces of honor gear available.
Pally: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/cenarius/judsea/simple

Running 5's hasn't been that successful.
Queues are over 5 minutes a game, on the weekend when theoretically more people are playing.
Even using Anti-Magic, for a sustained opener on the first target and using the HB-FS-NS-BS, two healers (each team so far has been 2 Healers + 3 DPS) easily outheal my DPS.
Not even close to killing even one opponent yet.

Running 2's... figured that would be easier.
Haven't done much of this, as teams disband after two games or so, without a win.
The Pally (with a 3k res Warrior) lost their two games.
The DK (with a 3.3k res Resto Shammy) lost a game, and the Shammy said the DPS was very low.

What's the answer?
Just continue to plug away, and eventually my rating will tank to the point where I'll play equally shitty opponents?
Or say screw arena, and just get Honor capped for the end of the season... which will let me buy weapons on Day 1...
And do an honor grind again, for Conquest gear... but at the most be one week behind others in gearing?

Any suggestions?

[Kekkerer]

It helps to start off with someone else healing initially to get your 5 wins. I had a priest with 4k+ resi heal me and we had a reasonable win rate when my dks were between 1.5k-2k resiliance. A significant win boost was levelling up engineering for the heads and glove enchants. I'm playing now with my pally and i'm not doing amazingly 1550 rating (in my book anything over 1.5k is good) but i did go 5-0 this week, don't have time to play more games.

[pinotnoir]

You have 4 options. Que 5's with guild mates and get your points. Que 2's with 2 dks and maybe get to 1600. Que 3's with 3 dk's and maybe get to 1600. Que 2's with your pally and 1 dk and maybe get to 1500. Now that everyone is sporting full pvp gear the holy grail of 4 DK's are not as powerful. They are still the best option for pvping as a boxer. However, they are not steamrolling anyone like people did at the start of the season when nobody had gear. Give up any attempt to get high rating and just get your points and be done with it. It will save yourself the frustration of watching people live through 4 dk's going all out on them.

[Ualaa]

All I care about really, is the Conquest weapons or for the healer Weapon + Shield.
If my rating never went above 1000, I could care less.
Battlegrounds are what I find fun, not arena.

It is kind of frustrating...
I remade the 5's team, after the first one lost 18 matches without killing a single opponent.
Two healers can easily outheal the DPS I put out.
That puts my team at 0 wins and 20 losses, so far.



Don't have anyone else in my guild, so that's not an option.

I guess making new character sets in IS Boxer is the next chore then.
So the round-robin will be Toon A, Toon B, Toon A, Toon B... rather than C and D, who aren't there.

[Kekkerer]

It helps to have a round robin strangulate IWT macro on focus for one of the healers.

[Kekkerer]

You posted in another thread that you have 318 2H-Axes.

That is a problem, you should easily be able to get 333 swords from ring of blood in twilight, there are no pres for that. I upgraded my 333 sword to the 85 badge TB swords and then to arena weapons.

[Littleburst]

+ 1 on swords are important

+1 on silences. You're gonna have a tough time just spamming damage in a target, you will need to CC to kill someone. HELLO hungering Cold. Esp with a healer hopefully keeping you alive you can really screw them up properly. Just use it twice. wait for DR and use it again. Combining that with Strangulate on healer should get some good pressure out.

[Ualaa]

Thank you for the suggestions.

Have Strangulate on round-robin.
But add in, versus the focus target.
*Edit*
Do you manually push the Strangulate, or build it into your DPS spam?

I will look into Engineering.

I went and bought four 2H Maces on the AH (very good price, so figured why not).
They're iLV 344, more than a 100 DPS increase on the weapon.
And better stats.. see how that goes.

I've got Hungering Cold, as one of the "random" spammed buttons in the rotation.
HB (key down) and on key up, one of: HB, FS, FS, NS, BS, HC.
Could take that out, and manually control it; the random nature has worked well in battlegrounds, but more control cannot hurt in BG's and I can see that as being a boost in arena too.

Thanks.

[Kekkerer]

I personally do not like the hungering cold macro in the manifesto because of the significant dps decrease on one of the chars.

I've got it set up exactly like mind freeze on my main dps key but with longer delays and obliterate ofc.

[ghonosyph]

i've found more success by having an outside healer on my team. My pally has been severely lacking on points because of it, but thats just how it rolls. There are some things i've found that work rather well with two healer teams, as long as they're not 1800 rated when you're like 1400... you're gonna lose those matches regardless of two heals or not.

what i start out with is a macro that deathgrips EVERYONE into range, fires off two howling blasts and then hungering cold. *(ie i have a macro for each dk that does /cast @arena1-4 deathgrip, and then just target arena 5 and focus fire on him)... this usually causes two things to happen, their team will instinctively pop all defensive cooldowns or trinkets, pop hungering cold again and then obliterate spam and blood strike spam, pop runic empowerment and obliterate 3 times on each dk.

IF you can "surprise" a group like this then you're going to down someone almost assuredly. The /focus on a healer and round robin on strangulate is a good touch as well, tho i haven't implemented it yet, i just have strangulate on my T key on round robin and use it to burst down heals or stop mages from being pesky.

IMO hire a healer, get your points for a couple weeks on your dks and buy the 359 weapons(axe mace sword, depending on race and preference) I mainly work the pally in when one of my 5 other healers aren't around to play. I usually win close to same rated teams, but anything thats mmr 1650 + wrecks me(ie the opponents are usually a good 200 to 400 rating higher than me IF they win, anything like rated or lower loses harshly to me lol). I've got about 3100 resil on my dks too, so they stay alive a bit longer.

One thing you can learn to do is to manage defensive cooldowns better, and wear out their healers mana by focusing on a hard to kill target. Watch them closely and when they get low grip BOTH healers into the kill zone and go for the burst with a mix of howling blast and obliterate , using runic empowerment then, to really mess them up. If you can keep their DPS on the defensive and put out LOTZ of dmg so that the healers HAVE to pressure heal, then they're going to burn out on mana quick(lol thats a relative term but you get the idea) then just try to grip and burst. going against two healers is going to be all about the outlast the mana and then cc/burst. Target swapping when someone gets low is kinda win as well once they get low on mana. Make them MAKE choices, and react to you, vs you just smacking against the wall.

Liek the others have said before me here, you really should get some weapons :) that was MY biggest wall, and once i got my 359 axes i started really rolling over teams. Stack strength /resil and keep that spell pen capped and you should be seeing better numbers soon <3 =)

[Kekkerer]

My strangulate macro, casts strangulate on target if focus does not exist:

#showtooltip Strangulate
/cast Blood Tap
/cast [@focus, exists, nodead][@target] Strangulate

[pinotnoir]

If you want points forget 5's unless you have a guild to run against. Do 2's for your points. You can try 3's as well.

[Noids]

IMO stick with 5s. My first few weeks were with less resil than you but only 4 weeks into the season. It was taking me 40-50 games to get my 5 wins at that stage, but it was all practice. I would eventually come up against similar nub teams who I could burst down or teams who I assume were win trading who wouldn't even enter the arena.

After 3 weeks of points you get your purple weapons and it is onwards and upwards from there.

[Kekkerer]

How short are your queue times that allow you to pull 50 games a week? :S

[Noids]

Varies from 2-10mins depend on time of day. I tend to log on, do a random BG to warm up then jump into arena queue. My first game is normally up quickly and from there I tend to head out to Deepholm or TH (wherever my questing is up to) and just sit in the queue as I quest. I can normally get through 10 games in a night in under 2 hours and do this on average 5 nights a week.

This is on Bloodlust but I play on Western Australian times so well off kilter with peak US times.

[Fat Tire]

If you want points forget 5's unless you have a guild to run against. Do 2's for your points.

This.

I dont know why more boxers dont set up times to play against each other in 5v5. At the very least you could both get your wins for the week in a much more timely manner.

I enjoy 2s myself. Endless comps to play, almost instant queues, alot more nubs play 2s than 5s and I receive the same amount of points as 3s/5s/rbgs. Sure you cant get Glad titles, but seriously they(titles in general) are over rated and as the game gets older everyone can see how many titles they are adding. The T2 weapons are nice and if you are unable to obtain them via 2200(3s/5s), you can get equivalent in pve by paying gold to a guild, if not now for sure when new pve content is released.

Also the best advice I could give is to become a better player,. There are DKs that while they have their T2 weapon and full Vic have SOLOED to 2k in 2v2. They tanked their mmr and started solo from 14-1500. Arena is all about timely use of cooldowns, interrupt/cc chains for kill or pressure and knowing when to reset. Practice,practice,practice.

[pinotnoir]

Varies from 2-10mins depend on time of day. I tend to log on, do a random BG to warm up then jump into arena queue. My first game is normally up quickly and from there I tend to head out to Deepholm or TH (wherever my questing is up to) and just sit in the queue as I quest. I can normally get through 10 games in a night in under 2 hours and do this on average 5 nights a week.

This is on Bloodlust but I play on Western Australian times so well off kilter with peak US times.

On my server 5's rarely are queing. On the other hand 2's and 3's are under 1 minute.

[Littleburst]

You really gotta have a terrible BG if you manage to win while playing double DK as a boxer in 2's. I tried double ele with semi decent gear and got owned quite badly. I doubt it's that much better for 2 DK's.

[Emo?]

Think its better tbh, Dk > Ele imo :)

[outdrsyguy1]

I got my 5v5 rating up and just play one game a week to maintain cap. I play 3v3 games and run priest/2dk's and then swap in my other 2 dk's. I tried 3 dk's but it didn't go well.

[pinotnoir]

You really gotta have a terrible BG if you manage to win while playing double DK as a boxer in 2's. I tried double ele with semi decent gear and got owned quite badly. I doubt it's that much better for 2 DK's.

Elemental shamans are terrible in pvp. The double DK's are pretty good. It would be much easier for him to get points fast doing 2's or 3's. On my server if you que for 5's it will tell you unavailable for time. It's a complete waste of time unless guild members are doing 5's as well. The times I actually went up against someone in 5's it was the same team over and over. 5's on my battlegroup don't play.

[Littleburst]

Elemental shamans are terrible in pvp. The double DK's are pretty good. It would be much easier for him to get points fast doing 2's or 3's. On my server if you que for 5's it will tell you unavailable for time. It's a complete waste of time unless guild members are doing 5's as well. The times I actually went up against someone in 5's it was the same team over and over. 5's on my battlegroup don't play.

I had a 5 min queue on 5's when I tried it. I prefer that any day. But I guess Double DK works better if people say so. I still think you're to easy to counter. Just hope people who think don't play on that rating.

[ebony]

i can win my 5 games "just" had some really easy 5's group 2nd week at 85 and am going great then :D some groups just steam roller me thogh others they die looking at me


https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/webUpload?uname=ebonifaye&aid=5585068815196701585


my groups

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/arena/grim-batol/5v5/pink%20death%20machine/

[Toned]

I am able to win games fairly easy as tripple ele in 3s.

I've been running 1 ele in a 3s with friends, paladin in 2s or 3s with friends, and 3 shamans together to get the main teams points ( missed last week was lvling dk's).

Hoping this week or next ill be doing dks in arenas ><

[Ualaa]

I've found a pair of players, who are decent in 2's.
They're willing to run 25 games of 3's, with my toons for three weeks.
I'm paying them per win.

That will be three weeks of five wins per toon.
With the Conquest weapons, that should make things a bit easier.
I've implemented everything mentioned here, except the Engineering, into my set up.
I will be adding the Engineering at some point.

Currently the DK's have Alchemy + Nothing.
So they'll each get Engineering.

The Pally has Alchemy + Enchanting.
There is the possibility of running heroics with this team.
But more likely, I would do it with another team.
The Enchanting is specifically to be able to disenchant.
Is there a significant disadvantage to not having Engineering on the Pally Healer?
My focus is battlegrounds, but arena would be nice for points each week.

[Fat Tire]

I've found a pair of players, who are decent in 2's.
They're willing to run 25 games of 3's, with my toons for three weeks.
I'm paying them per win.

That will be three weeks of five wins per toon.
With the Conquest weapons, that should make things a bit easier.
I've implemented everything mentioned here, except the Engineering, into my set up.
I will be adding the Engineering at some point.

Currently the DK's have Alchemy + Nothing.
So they'll each get Engineering.

The Pally has Alchemy + Enchanting.
There is the possibility of running heroics with this team.
But more likely, I would do it with another team.
The Enchanting is specifically to be able to disenchant.
Is there a significant disadvantage to not having Engineering on the Pally Healer?
My focus is battlegrounds, but arena would be nice for points each week.

What I have found with engineering in my experience is its over rated. I was either going to win without it or lose having it. It made very little difference. So much so that I dumped almost all my engineers and went blacksmithing with a couple of my characters, I like the extra gems. /shrug

[Negativ1337]

Not sure if you have an answer to your question yet. Here is my suggestion:

Make sure your rotation is working. If not adjust ISBoxer and fix issues.
Find a good spec for PvP. You could check out arenajunkies.com and look at rankings. Find the first high rated player of your class and gather information about specs and glyphs.

Get your hit rating and spell penetration sorted out. You need 4% hit chance, and about 240 spell penetration (yes 240, fully buffed mage with ice armor has 240 resistance). So your spells/abilities can't be resisted/missed.

After thats fixed get better gear. You can obtain better gear by either crafting a BoE blue set, or by gaining honor points/conquest points.

Now the most fun step, step into the arena and try to see what is going wrong and try to improve at arena. If you sure it's not your fault your failing hard in arena's try to find a better healer (not sure what setup your playing).

Kind regards,

Negativ1337

[Kekkerer]

The spec you play also slightly depends on your playstyle... this is the spec I play right now:

http://www.wowhead.com/talent#jcd0bZGcRrfzRdbu

a variation of it:

http://www.wowhead.com/talent#jcd0bZGcorfzRdbub


I did not start off using these specs however, the following spec spec is also much easier to play and helped me get used to dks in the arena especially when you are not used to timing strangulates.

http://www.wowhead.com/talent#j0oZGcRrfzRdbufM

[Ualaa]

I had not really looked at the second tier of Blood at all.

I really like the cooldown reduction on Strangulate; it will help a lot in Arena.
Battlegrounds are my focus, but arena gets the better gear...
I don't see losing Desecration as being too terrible in battlegrounds; Howling Blast is AoE, spammed frequently, and does the snare thing too.

Thanks for the suggestions and ideas, everyone.

[Ualaa]

The two players did not end up running any games with me, so gave up on them after the Tue maintenance; a week lost.



I did find a PvE geared gnome mage.
iLV 349 (DK's were 350, with PvP gear) so comparable gear level.
He had the Conquest wand, the rest of the gear was PvE entirely.
Frost and Fire dual-spec, no wins as Fire though.

The DK's ended up close to 50% win rate.
We disbanded the team, when we reached 800 rating.
And disbanded it again, at 600 rating.
For easier opponents.

I believe week one results (with the mage) were:
DK: 5 wins, 5 losses
DK: 4 wins, 4 losses
DK: 5 wins, 5 losses
DK: 5 wins, 4 losses
Pally: 5 wins, 3 losses

He's interested in running games both next week and the following.
Definitely offering gold per win, is a good approach for entering arena mid-season.
With random players, the 4W/4L DK is 1W/20L, with four different partners, only one with comparable gear (1W, 8L, with a 3.6k res Aff-Lock).

At this point, DK's are 3,173 Res and Juds is 3,196 Res.

[Fat Tire]

UDYV_SzlAHg

[pinotnoir]

My 3's all Frost DK team is in the 1700's right now zerging. I would give 3's a try its fun.

[zenga]

@ fat tire
that is hilarious, sick and amazing

[daanji]

My DK team (4 DKS + Priest) wasn't haven't much success in 5s. So I opted to do 2s.

In 2s, I'm running with double blood and have a 50% win ratio. My queue times are less than a minute and loving it.

In 5s, I had to wait for 30 minutes per game. Ugh.


In my first 2s match, it was against a Disc Priest + Rogue.

It went for 5 minutes try to kill each other. I wasn't getting low at all and the priest was slowly losing mana.

When his mana got low, they both tried to play keep away with me. I ended up chasing the priest for a long time, got him down to 5%. He also escaped me with a well time fear, but my Goblin rocket boots enabled me to jump on his face and finished him off.

The rogue decided to draw out the game for another 10 minutes, wasting everyones time.

[Feehza]

He plays in Unholy Presence. I assume he has this Deathstrike glyph (15%heal). But then you cant use Runestrike :(

[Fat Tire]

He plays in Unholy Presence. I assume he has this Deathstrike glyph (15%heal). But then you cant use Runestrike :(

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_wAxDMfEGhoY/TNXN6QQ0u0I/AAAAAAAAAWI/bw3_EiZUxS8/s1600/Not+Sure+if+serious.jpg

[Kekkerer]

Hilarious image response!

[Khatovar]

Damn, now I want to watch Dark Knight again.

Someone make me an edited version with just the Joker Bits.

[Toned]

He plays in Unholy Presence. I assume he has this Deathstrike glyph (15%heal). But then you cant use Runestrike :(

Lol the 15% heal + blood shield > rune strike. You can also DC spam your RP away, and RS on dodge/parry/etc...