Window Management with 3+ clients

[kenphillips]

Hello Gang,

I recently started playing EVE again, being lured back by their latest marketing email for former players coupled with the fact that I've given up on WoW for the time being also. Since I was 4-boxing WoW, I decided I'd try and box EVE with my 2 accounts like before, hoping there was a bit more support developed during my time away (I left during Apochrypha). Alas, there isn't but I did finally get EVE Launcher to work correctly which I couldn't do last time 'round.

Anywho, let's get to the reason for this post. In scouring these and other forums, blogs, etc., it seems that all the window management tools we use have a negative effect on the cursor in EVE; EVE Launcher being the exception to this and possibly EVE Mover as well. This then limits us to 1 client per monitor. I can deal with that for now, but I do plan on adding another toon to the mix and I'm building a gaming PC so I can free up other PCs for other uses. I liked the way Keyclone could make a client very small and/or do PiP as well as removing the border.

Is there any way I can have 3 clients running on 1(2) monitor(s) with no borders and full mouse functionality? Yes, I want to eat my cake!

I've already tried this using Keyclone but the mouse get skewed and frame-rate takes a huge hit. I've also read about this happening when using HotKeyNet (mouse problems and no border-removal). I haven't tried ISBoxer/InnerSpace yet for a couple reasons. One being I could lose my accounts and another being the recurring fee. Looking forward to your thought on this.

[MiRai]

I haven't tried ISBoxer/InnerSpace yet for a couple reasons. One being I could lose my accounts and another being the recurring fee. Looking forward to your thought on this.
Please elaborate on the underlined section.

[kenphillips]

As you wish,

If you scour this set of forums, you will discover that EVE GMs do not like people using InnerSpace beacuse of the key/mouse broadcasting feature. EVE GMs have no problem with M-boxers and multiple accounts administered by one person. But, they want you to manually direct each client one-at-a-time. Taking advantage of key/mouse broadcasting violates the EVE EULA/ToS. This is specifically stated in these forums. I've also read on here that there's a botting program which uses InnerSpace. I know EVE has a very liberal policy of non-interference with their virtual players but I've also read of members on this site getting suspensions for boxing using some form of broadcasting. To me, doing something that may get your accounts suspended, and continuing to do that something after the suspension is setting yourself up for a perma-ban.

Having said that, I'm not opposed to using InnerSpace to achieve my cake, but only if there's no other way. I could still play with 2 PCs after I get my gaming system built, which would give me more options than just InnerSpace, but I'd rather play with one safely.

[MiRai]

As you wish,

If you scour this set of forums, you will discover that EVE GMs do not like people using InnerSpace beacuse of the key/mouse broadcasting feature. EVE GMs have no problem with M-boxers and multiple accounts administered by one person. But, they want you to manually direct each client one-at-a-time. Taking advantage of key/mouse broadcasting violates the EVE EULA/ToS. This is specifically stated in these forums. I've also read on here that there's a botting program which uses InnerSpace. I know EVE has a very liberal policy of non-interference with their virtual players but I've also read of members on this site getting suspensions for boxing using some form of broadcasting. To me, doing something that may get your accounts suspended, and continuing to do that something after the suspension is setting yourself up for a perma-ban.

Having said that, I'm not opposed to using InnerSpace to achieve my cake, but only if there's no other way. I could still play with 2 PCs after I get my gaming system built, which would give me more options than just InnerSpace, but I'd rather play with one safely.
I guess I will leave it up to the people of this forum who box EVE with InnerSpace to speak for what they've done and
seen with the program itself. I will mention, however, that I've idled in the ISBoxer IRC chat room everyday, all day, for close
to a year now [possibly longer] and not a single person has ever, ever, come in there mentioning being banned on any
game they've used InnerSpace with.

If you have anything recent stating that mouse broadcasting isn't allowed, then please post it [including the TOS]; as the
most recent thing I have seen is this (http://www.dual-boxing.com/showpost.php?p=274418&postcount=29).

[kenphillips]

Huh, dunno how I missed that section of the thread. I'm glad you pointed that out to me. At least I can now consider using InnerSpace a little more, but is it my only option?

[MiRai]

Huh, dunno how I missed that section of the thread. I'm glad you pointed that out to me. At least I can now consider using InnerSpace a little more, but is it my only option?
Not 100% sure, I have not played EVE myself, but I would assume the only other software choice that would currently
come close to ISBoxer would be HKN. You did, however, mention those issues in your first post while trying out HKN. Again,
I do not play EVE so I cannot guarantee ISBoxer working 100% perfect at the very moment with EVE. The only reason I
say that is because within the last few months I've seen a few people come in the IRC channel with mouse broadcasting
issues [no real bugs, just the mouse broadcasting]. I haven't seen those issues in awhile so I would like to say it has been
fixed. Feel free to wait for another real EVE multiboxer to respond to this thread besides myself, it could take a few days
though as EVE multiboxers don't frequent these boards nearly as much as the ever-so-quickly-changing WoW [as I'm sure
you can see from the thread dates]. In the end, glad I could shed some light on everything. :)

[Mukade]

HKN has no problems with removing the borders from EVE windows or scaling them to fit a full screen at the same resolution as the EVE window, at which point there are no longer any mouse issues, and broadcasting works fine.

If there are any problems with mouse broadcasting on windows scaled below 100%, then HKN has options to change the scaling of the mouse movements.

Broadcasting is permitted in EVE, as a senior GM made clear, by saying "programs designed for multiboxing in mind which allow a player to manually issue the same command to multiple game clients at the same time are allowed."

RTFM. The commands you are looking for are:

RemoveWinFrame
SetWinRect
ClickMouse

[kenphillips]

After the above (where broadcasting is now legal in EVE), I finally looked into ISBoxer briefly, and what I found was disappointing. ISBoxer/InnerSpace works the same as EVE Launcher/EVE Mover in terms of wIndow size and mouse functionality. Essentially 1 EVE client per screen or mouse issues. And their EVE section is even smaller than this forum :(

Here's the strange thing tho. I did the math, and using the lowest resolution setting in EVE (1024x786); you'd need a monitor that supports a resolution of 2048x1536 (QXGA or 1536p) to run multiple clients (4) with no mouse issues...theoretically. And what's stranger is how rare it is to find an LCD that supports this resolution. Price ranges I saw were in the $4,000 - $6,000 USD neighborhood.

And what's even stranger? Remember that boxing-god, Zhek Kromtor, running 14 EVE clients with the dowel/screw setup and taped-together mice? If you look at those pics, he's got 2 clients per monitor with no reported mouse issues. Wonder how he did that? I'll start looking at HKN more now, since it looks like it might be the only solution. When I can tear myself away from the game, of course. Thanks and I appreciate all the posts given.

[Ualaa]

HKN is a good solution, if you want to go with it.
IS Boxer is more powerful and flexible, if you think it is worth the subscription vs HKN being free.



As far as the Window Layout...

There's the size that each of the regions is rendered at, which is the game resolution.
This can be whatever you want, subject to what your system can handle.

Then there is the physical window size, on your monitor.
I have five regions, each rendered at 1680x1050, but four fit across the bottom of my 2560x1600 monitor.
With a larger region along the top, which warcraft thinks is also 1680x1050 even though it stretches across the full 2560 width.

The size the windows are rendered at, is not the size they are displayed at within your Window Layout.

[kenphillips]

Ualaa,

I was running a similar setup with Keyclone+Synergy for WoW. 3 Clients on one monitor (my slaves). That monitor has a max resolution of 1280x1024. It worked in WoW with no mouse problems. But it doesn't work in EVE!

From what I've learned, and please someone correct me if I'm mistaken, window management in EVE requires that the client and managed window have the same resolution (minimum res 1024x768) to have correct mouse functionality. With EVE Launcher, EVE Mover, and EVEMon, this means one client per monitor as that's the max these tools support. According to what I saw on the ISBoxer/InnerSpace site, InnerSpace works the same way.

I'm looking for a tool that will allow me to run multiple EVE clients on my 1280x1024 monitor where I can see the entierty of each client with no border and have correct mouse functionality on all clients.

[Whowantstoknow]

Pretty sure that what you are wanting works fine in ISBoxer because ISBoxer handles the windows completely differently to Keyclone ie the minimised windows are all rendered at the same resolution as the main. You can use the windows management to display your windows however you want and still render the windows at whatever res you need however i think most people using ISBoxer for both Wow and Eve use one large window and mutliple minimised windows as per this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEvezuymfsc

[Ualaa]

Not sure on whether IS works with Eve.
I know it works differently then all of the other boxing softwares.

You launch through Inner Space.
Which can then make the game think a window is the focus, so the mouse can work there.. even if the window is not the focus.
The game might think it is rendering the client at whatever resolution, etc.

I'd suggest asking Lax.
He's probably the only one who can give you a definitive answer.
Aside from a couple of games in alpha or closed beta, I've not seen a game which cannot be run on IS; once Lax gets a copy of the game, it usually works pretty quickly thereafter.

[kenphillips]

Ok, here's the link to what's turned me off to ISBoxer/InnerSpace: http://www.lavishsoft.com/wiki/index.php/ISBoxer:EVE_Online

Under Known Issues (and the section is in BOLD "When creating a Window Layout, the Main Window size must match the in-game resolution selected by EVE. Otherwise, there will be mouse cursor issues."

This means, for monitors which support a max resolution less than 2048x1536, one EVE client per monitor, or, for monitors that support 2048x1536 resolution or greater, a maximum of four EVE clients per monitor, with full mouse capability. Unless I'm mistaken?

This is, of course, unless the page I linked isn't maintained and/or something has changed with ISBoxer/InnerSpace. I'm also in the process of PM'ing Lax. Thanks Ualaa!

[Ualaa]

I don't read a maximum of one client per window from that.

Take my monitor: 2560x1600.
I'm running five warcraft clients at 1680x1050.
If warcraft was set to run at 1680x1050, and that is also the resolution of the main window...
I'd still have space elsewhere on my monitor for the slave/alt windows.

The slave/alt windows will be rendered at the same resolution as the main window.
But they don't have to be the same physical size on your monitor as the main window.
Eve will think each window is 1680x1050, but only the main window will actually have that size.

[kenphillips]

Breakin' it down Barney-style :)

The reason it's one client per monitor for monitor resolutions less than 2048x1536 is as follows:
The client resolution and window resolution must be the SAME for full mouse functionality!

Since EVE's minimum client resolution is 1024x768, the window resolution for this client, in a multiple client per monitor setup, is also 1024x768. On monitors that don't support a 2048x1536 resolution, multiple clients per monitor is impossible without overlap since the monitor lacks the screen real-estate to display all clients in the foreground at once.

Hence, you can only have one client per monitor at monitor resolutions less than 2048x1536. Unless my logic is flawed, as I don't have a monitor that supports this resolution.

Also, I realize this type of window management works in WoW. But it doesn't work in EVE. This is because the client res and the window res are not required to be the same in WoW. Please refrain from using WoW examples of window management in this thread.

[ShadowKntSDS]

Breakin' it down Barney-style :)

The reason it's one client per monitor for monitor resolutions less than 2048x1536 is as follows:
The client resolution and window resolution must be the SAME for full mouse functionality!

Since EVE's minimum client resolution is 1024x768, the window resolution for this client, in a multiple client per monitor setup, is also 1024x768. On monitors that don't support a 2048x1536 resolution, multiple clients per monitor is impossible without overlap since the monitor lacks the screen real-estate to display all clients in the foreground at once.

Hence, you can only have one client per monitor at monitor resolutions less than 2048x1536. Unless my logic is flawed, as I don't have a monitor that supports this resolution.

Also, I realize this type of window management works in WoW. But it doesn't work in EVE. This is because the client res and the window res are not required to be the same in WoW. Please refrain from using WoW examples of window management in this thread.

With IS, the clients will run @ 1024x768, but IS shrinks what get displayed. I've run 3 EVE clients with IS before on one screen, and my monitor res is 1920x1080. IS will run the clients natively at what ever res the client is setup to run, but will sample the output to give a display for the slaves at w/e resolution you want. I say sample, because there is no smoothing and th scaling is very crude for speed purposes. It is true that the main window has to take up 1024x768, but slaves just need to take up space in the same aspect ratio. They will be at 1024x768 as far as eve is concerned. The really only lends itself to setups where the main window takes up 90% of the screen and the slaves take up a small fraction each.

You can NOT have a master on one screen at 1080p and a slave a on a 2nd monitor at 1680x1050 and have mouse broadcasting working. You can however have the master at 1080p, and multiple slaves each rendering at 1080p, but displayed in a smaller res window on the 2nd monitor (say 4 slaves taking up 840x525 each). All clients would be running at 1080p, so mouse broadcasting would work.

EVE is a bit of a PITA because it does not inherently support arbitrary resolutions, or dynamic resizing (yet). It only allows resolutions that you vid drivers report. For example, if you wanted 3 client, where one is 1920x720 and 2x slaves at 860x360 below the main (to completely fill a 1080p screen), you would need to register 1920x720 as valid resolution with your video drivers, and then set all of your clients to run at that res.

[Whowantstoknow]

Unless my logic is flawed.

Yes it is.

Your logic is the reason Keyclone wont work but ISBoxer is completely different. I dont think we can convince you of this until you try it for yourself though. Go grab a free 7 day trial and see for yourself.

[kenphillips]

Finally, someone with inside knowledge and experience from the EVE Universe. I got a 120 coming up, so I'll try this out then (that's 5-days off in-a-row for you civies). And no, my logic still isn't flawed, whowantstoknow. My data may be corrupt :D, but my logic is spot-on! Looks like the EVE page on IS needs to be updated some.

[Lax]

Sorry to thread necro, whether ISBoxer is allowed in EVE or not has been addressed by CCP for a while now. Kromtor got a 3 day suspension, specifically for using ISBoxer, which was reversed after he made that elaborate rig with wooden dowels and several mice and posted pictures for everyone. The "Is ISBoxer Allowed?" page specifically describes this and provides CCP's current stance on use of ISBoxer as given by Senior GM Lelouch. http://isboxer.com/index.php/is-isboxer-allowed. (Senior GM Lelouch's post: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1291641&page=10#274)

Here's a recent thread on the ISBoxer.com forums in the EVE section, which also includes a separate Senior GM's response to an inquiry that was answered wrong by a lower GM:
http://isboxer.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=884

Hi, senior GM Spiral here.

There has been some accidental misinformation in this case unfortunately. Senior GM Lelouch's post on the forums still stands as our official stance on the use of that program. The program in question is permitted to be used with EVE Online.

We do reserve the right to review this decision at a later date however.

Best regards,
Senior GM Spiral
EVE Online Customer Support Team

Ok Their was a post making a question about isboxer that's been show on youtube. Another GM posted It looks ok and we don't know it automates or not. So when I seen this post I replied to my ticket saying look I have 2 gm's saying I get banned then I seen this post and you guys don;t have a fucking clue. I pretty much got pissed off with misinformation about this.

So I had a GM saying a Senior GM will look into this and I get an answer. Their you have it Now I know where I stand with CCP but pretty pissed off GM Horse and co just dumb and saying shit they don;t know.

So just to clear that up, there is nothing wrong with using ISBoxer to multibox EVE Online; ISBoxer strictly adheres to the guidelines described by the senior GM.


For anyone looking for some resources on how to get started with EVE + ISBoxer, I am well aware there needs to be better information made easily available. The EVE section of the isboxer.com forums is a good place to start, and here's a thread with helpful info as well: http://isboxer.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=6