Boxing Rating BGs... gonna do it?

[thedreameater]

Just curious, since it's a pre-made game now and most pre-made teams will tear up a boxer.

Also, anyone having issues with BGs since 4.0.1? I suck something terrible, but no insta-GW means I can't gtfo of bad situations. Face me against 4 other players now and I'm getting wrecked. Might be because the arena season is over and all the good players are flexing their skill - but it's brutal.

[Mokoi]

nope, we are tanks with our resil now and the shield, the HP .. i don't die often anymore unless I get into a really bad situation.

rated BGs? yes. Boxers can also be supported by exceptional players as well, and it will still take equal numbers or more to take us down in Cata, and that leaves more room for our teammates to take control of maps etc.

[thedreameater]

I am just returning from a little SC2 summer break and need to get back into the swing. I think I put myself in bad situations by not hanging back enough. If I remember, even at top resil, shaman want to be in the back and not draw too much attention. 4x chain lightning will draw attention, but it is usually too late for them to act.

I also hang around a little too long and get caught alone.

4v3 I can get rocked, again, cause of better skilled players. Anything less than 3 is never an issue. That said, darn circle straifing rogues cause me headaches. I cant kill em cause they are always turning, earthquake x4 doesn't tickle them, and I usually spend so much time trying to off one their back up arrives and stomps me.

I really miss insta-GW. Its so hard getting away with Thunderstorm on cd.

[heyaz]

I'm not sure yet, but my sense is, it won't work out very well. It only takes a few decent players, or even a single annoying rogue or prot warrior to render your entire team useless. These are pugs. Against premades - I can't really do anything once they decide to take advantage of the multiboxer. And these teams won't even compare to the skill or coordination of a rated BG team.

In addition to how easily a multiboxer can be shut down, you also have the issue of the rest of the team either not supporting you as they would separate players, or playing in such a way that makes things even worse - for example by following you around on BGs like AB, trying to help you with DPS instead of healing, and generally just playing differently than they should. You would need a team that not only supported a multiboxer through healing and such, but also one that based its strategy around the fact that half the team is in one place. Why someone would support that kind of team rather than just get 4 separate players, I don't know. It was hard enough to get a good healer in arena before you were over 2K.

In my experience: WSG, AB, EOTS, and sometimes SOTA all have implications when there is a multiboxer; brute force and tons of firepower doesn't always make up for the disadvantages. It's only in AV and IOC that I can consistently do well regardless of what the rest of the team is doing.

[Littleburst]

I'm not sure yet, but my sense is, it won't work out very well. It only takes a few decent players, or even a single annoying rogue or prot warrior to render your entire team useless. These are pugs. Against premades - I can't really do anything once they decide to take advantage of the multiboxer. And these teams won't even compare to the skill or coordination of a rated BG team.

In addition to how easily a multiboxer can be shut down, you also have the issue of the rest of the team either not supporting you as they would separate players, or playing in such a way that makes things even worse - for example by following you around on BGs like AB, trying to help you with DPS instead of healing, and generally just playing differently than they should. You would need a team that not only supported a multiboxer through healing and such, but also one that based its strategy around the fact that half the team is in one place. Why someone would support that kind of team rather than just get 4 separate players, I don't know. It was hard enough to get a good healer in arena before you were over 2K.

In my experience: WSG, AB, EOTS, and sometimes SOTA all have implications when there is a multiboxer; brute force and tons of firepower doesn't always make up for the disadvantages. It's only in AV and IOC that I can consistently do well regardless of what the rest of the team is doing.

The idea of rated BG is that you also have a capable team. It's obvious that if you meet 10 people who have a clue vs clueless people + you that you'll lose. But asuming you got good people with you aswell, that shouldn't be the case.

I'm really looking forward to it actually and it will be my main occupation hopefully.

[Èlemental]

I will be partaking in Rated Battlegrounds. Currently I am enlisted in the largest PvP guild on blackrock alliance side, and the guild leader loves me for multiboxing (it helps him with his world PvP conquest). And I lead many premades within my guild and we rarely lose. I mean fifteen people on vent is cool, but lol 10 arena players on vent and a multiboxer, yeah that's cheating. >.<

[Ualaa]

It looks like Rated BG's will be premades to queue.

So, you could theoretically get 10 clueless people to queue with a 5-boxer.
But you could also get a team that plays to the strengths of boxers.
I'd like to queue as a 5-boxer, with one or two other 5-boxers... which will likely mean needing a server transfer; I've run into two or three other boxers during leveling/boosting, but haven't seen other boxers in a year or so on Cenarius-Alliance.

Also not sure if we can go rated-AV queue consistently.
Or if rated-Random will be a quick queue and anything else a lengthy queue.
If we can consistently only run large scale BG's (rated), that will make us more effective.

Another thing to consider.
Our top 'x' games in the week will count towards points.
So with a good team, you might cap on points in 12 matches.
And with a crap team of pugs, it might take 63 matches.
But either way, you cap on points and advance equally as far.
Also, because they're rated, if you consistently queue with crap teams, you'll face worse and worse opposition which should be easier to beat.

[Littleburst]

The rated BG will be the call to arms BG. So it will be only 1 BG and change every week.

[Ualaa]

So one week each: AV, AB, EotS, IoC, SotA, WSG.

How do you think teams of five boxers would do in each?
Two, Three or Five, depending on the BG?

[Fat Tire]

So one week each: AV, AB, EotS, IoC, SotA, WSG.

How do you think teams of five boxers would do in each?
Two, Three or Five, depending on the BG?

Twos only for me from now on-


Also, has anyone done the rated bgs testing on the beta a couple days ago?

I have and I have one word for 80% of the games(I only played 5) and we had gladiator caliber players on both sides.



Stalemate

[Èlemental]

The rated BG will be the call to arms BG. So it will be only 1 BG and change every week.


No but I believe you are wrong on this subject.

Quoted from a blue.

"Rated Battlegrounds are broken down into three brackets. 10v10, 15v15 and 25v25. These brackets rotate weekly and can be viewed in-game via the calendar by activating the battleground holiday filter."

Seeing as they are broken down in brackets I feel they will share the same liberties as arena did, so they will rotate maps or in this case battlegrounds. So if the week is 10v10 week, we may participate in either Warsong and the new 10v10 map coming out. 15v15 will include SOTA/AB/EOTS, maybe a new one. And then 25v25, will include IoC and AV.

[heyaz]

If you could do nothing but 25v25 that could work out very well for multiboxing...the smaller ones, I still don't have much faith that we'll be effective

[Ualaa]

Depends how you read the quote.

I'd interpret that as
10v10 - rotates between WSG and the New 10-man.
15v15 - rotates between SotA, AB, and EotS
25v25 - rotates between AV and IoC

But you'd be able to queue every match as 25v25, if you wanted.

[Mosg2]

I interpret it as you get a random 10 man when you que for 10 man, same for 15 and 25. That makes more sense than rotating though the entire schedule--Which would require almost 2 months to do.

It might just come down to team choice, but I'm confident that me and Void'll be able to swing High Warlord on our DK's. /shrug

[Ualaa]

It would make more sense to me, to get a random 10-man, if you queue in the 10-man bracket.

But if the blue quote is correct, with the "these brackets rotate weekly", then 10's and 25's are on a 1-2-1-2 rotation while 15's are on a 1-2-3-1-2-3 rotation.

[Mosg2]

Um, I'm not sure how you got that exactly Ualaa. My interpretation is thus:

Week 1: 10 man BG's. You que with 10 people and get a random 10 person BG.
Week 2: 15 man BG's. You que with 15 people and get a random 15 person BG.
Week 3: 25 man BG's. You que with 25 people and get a random 25 person BG.

It makes sense to me.

[Ualaa]

Looks like it will rotate between 10-man, 15-man and 25-man BG's.
Blue Post from Nov 4th, which is fairly current.

http://www.worldofraids.com/wow-blue-tracker/us-forums/27607280587-rated-battlegrounds-faq.html

[thedreameater]

I am probably not gonna box rated BGs to start, just cycle my 4 shaman in and out of the team - hopefully it's like arena and each toon only needs to compete in a % of the total games.

Can't wait to see videos posted from ya'll who have success with boxing rated BGs. It's always inspiring.

[Budkin]

Been fighting xrelms 40 mans in most my avs ,25 guys shouldn't be that much hehe.Just need to build a sic team!:D

[Boylston]

There will be the "let's just queue and get points" teams on Monday night, as well. I think I might play then... :)

[Ualaa]

Points cannot be lost with a BG loss.
I'd imagine there will be a ton of PUG rated BG's; nothing to lose for a loss, and points available for wins.

Whether you get your maximum weekly points from arena 2's, 3's or 5's, or from rated BG's, everyone will want their points each week.

[Sephice]

Rated BGs will work for EotS, Alterac, Ioc

vs a good grp its fucking hard in WS, Arathi is possible with max 2 Boxers but i think not very effectiv ...

The new Cata BG will work i think because there is only one place, it makes fun but i cant MB on the Beta

[Littleburst]

Rated BGs will work for EotS, Alterac, Ioc

vs a good grp its fucking hard in WS, Arathi is possible with max 2 Boxers but i think not very effectiv ...

The new Cata BG will work i think because there is only one place, it makes fun but i cant MB on the Beta

To be clear, i don't think having more then 1 boxer in a BG is an advantage. Maybe 2 in AV, but that's it. Keeping that in mind, i think aslong as you have a decent team, you can do well in every BG.

[Sephice]

EoTs, 2 Boxer run forwart, one Draenei, other mage, 1 - 2 Healers to support them, one solo player take the BE and the other one the other tower

worked for me in every EotS and versus core grous(?)

Alterac is a Zerg the best way to win :D

IoC support or zerg, but all tactics we can test this weekend to try what will work with MB.

Keep in mind, MB Bgs work different, you must make new tactics and play different, with playing the normal Style you cant win

[Barazanthul]

Hmm i will rewrite sephice comment so it's more userfriendly :P

EotS Strat:

1 Boxer on Drenai, one boxer on Mage and some healers to support them. The rest of the team tapps your base and trys to defend against the few enemys trying to get the flag. This strat worked quite well on the last EotS WE. We even got some premades with this tactics, but i think we have to change this strat.

In Alterac, zerging is the best way to win. Just tap the first two towers, defend your own towers and zerg down the alliance.

On IoC we did not have much time to test, but this week is an IoC Weekend, so we will try out some tacticts there. Zerg or def works both. Most of the time we push to the docs, because the hangar is not so boxerfriendly :P

My two cents:

I think for 15 man Bg's you should not have more than one boxer maybe two. But that is the maximum. Otherwise you will hinder your team to much, because most of the team is at the same place. We saw that on the EotS we. Everytime we did not split, we had problems.

[BrothelMeister]

AB-SO-LUTELY!!

Why not partake in rated BGs? Shaman can rape in 5v5 with well coordinated team-sets. so why would we not be able to dominate in 10v10 or 15v15 with slightly less coordinated efforts ?

My current server is low pop, so I know all the PvPers, and they know me. Making up a half-decent BG group shouldn't be too hard. One thing that we will all ahve going for us that most of us might not have had is that we are starting on a level peg with EVERYONE as far as gear. I started playing WoW shortly after Wrath release, so I've never been able to start on a level peg, I've always been playing catch-up. This time around, my characters will be exactly on level with everyone else, not to mention that I can 5-box heroics to grind gear non-stop :)

TL;DR Boxers will rape in Cata, Don't fret

[Ualaa]

As long as you play the rated BG's each week, however many it takes until you cap points for the week... you'll be on equal footing (gear wise) with the most talented arena/rated BG players.

Without the possibility of a loss of points for the rated BG's, and with the increased likelihood of less skilled/geared opposition (compared to competitive arena), I'd think rated BG's would be the optimal playground for the majority of boxers.

If you've got an optimal arena composition and are skilled in that regard, that's a decent option too.

[Sephice]

Yeah, arena is a big point too, you can get it in 2vs2 3vs3 and and and

I hope i can make a good 4 + 1 Team, i think Arena is a good place too

[Mokoi]

Let's not forget, rated BGs are not a kill or be killed 5v5 arena match. There is far more strategy involved in a BG than in a simple arena match. You could roll your way to a full set of PvP gear by defending bases, ninja capping towers, returning flags, and of course kills.

[Ualaa]

I'd be interested in hearing strategies that work for one (five-boxer) or two (five-boxers) boxers, for given maps.

In theory, because of the coordination, we have more firepower/burst, possibly more survivability then individual players, but less flexibility in terms of variable numbers of toons at each are of a given map.

[Barazanthul]

@Ualaa

I think we will have to wait some more time till we will be able to post some strategies here. At the moment most of us only tested the strats versus random grps or chat premades. So i wouldn't call those strats final.

So my opinion is wait for cata, see what the new talents bring and then let's see how we can build a tactic with that. I only played several EotS with Kruschpak and Sephice with his DK and two external Healers. This was quite easy.

As i already posted somewhere else:

Krusch went for the magetower with one healer. Sephice with another healer pushed for drenai. I was tapping the bases on our side and then killed the alliance that went for the flag. After that we most of the time only farmed the alliance at the starting point. But as i said before, this was against randoms and chat premades. So no idea if this will work against real premades. I think it may lead to tap your bases and only go for one enemy base, defending the bases on your side and then getting one of the single players to get the flag. So let's wait for cata and see.

[Toned]

It looks like Rated BG's will be premades to queue.

So, you could theoretically get 10 clueless people to queue with a 5-boxer.
But you could also get a team that plays to the strengths of boxers.
I'd like to queue as a 5-boxer, with one or two other 5-boxers... which will likely mean needing a server transfer; I've run into two or three other boxers during leveling/boosting, but haven't seen other boxers in a year or so on Cenarius-Alliance.

Also not sure if we can go rated-AV queue consistently.
Or if rated-Random will be a quick queue and anything else a lengthy queue.
If we can consistently only run large scale BG's (rated), that will make us more effective.

Another thing to consider.
Our top 'x' games in the week will count towards points.
So with a good team, you might cap on points in 12 matches.
And with a crap team of pugs, it might take 63 matches.
But either way, you cap on points and advance equally as far.
Also, because they're rated, if you consistently queue with crap teams, you'll face worse and worse opposition which should be easier to beat.

TLDR; Transfer to US-Andorhal <Horde> IMO and come smash shit with me and reprisal.

[Barazanthul]

@Toned:

I am playing on an EU Realm ... so i cannot transfer to an US Realm.

[Sephice]

I'd be interested in hearing strategies that work for one (five-boxer) or two (five-boxers) boxers, for given maps.

In theory, because of the coordination, we have more firepower/burst, possibly more survivability then individual players, but less flexibility in terms of variable numbers of toons at each are of a given map.

Thats true and the point where you need good guild mates.
Like our tactic in EotS you need 2 Players who call inc and are defending, we just completly ignore the flag because the middle is too dangerous for boxers
The important thing is ( if you want play it on a high ranking ) that the boxers work together and there is no egotrip ;)

3 callers and 1 leader

[BrothelMeister]

EotS and AB are so well made for boxers just do to the nature of it. If theres only one 4-5 Boxer on the team, I usually try to get everyone else to spread out behind me and hold onto the bases I clear out. Then I just run from Base to base in a counter-clockwise (or clockwise) direction clearing out alliance and having 1-3 people stay behind to hold onto the base. All holding a base requires is people there long enough to give you or more people enough time to show up and fight off the attackers.

[zenga]

The thing is, would you wanna play with a boxer who is doing all the fun stuff (killing, capping,) while you get ordered to sit at a base and defend it? That wouldn't be my kind of game tbh as a solo player.

[Boylston]

The thing is, would you wanna play with a boxer who is doing all the fun stuff (killing, capping,) while you get ordered to sit at a base and defend it? That wouldn't be my kind of game tbh as a solo player.

If that team was rated high enough, sure. :)

[Littleburst]

I think it may lead to tap your bases and only go for one enemy base, defending the bases on your side and then getting one of the single players to get the flag. So let's wait for cata and see.

I'm pretty sure you'll not be able to just rush to a base and cap it, as easy as it is in pugs. I've done some premades with good people (2,4k+). Several times in the past season we met a decent premade against us and they just owned us quite badly. We weren't on Vent or anything and mainly just getting honor, so it wasn't that serious. But Pugs and an organised good premade are night and day.

In arena's healers heal for 10% less then they do in BG's if i'm correct. That's quite noticable, which makes it close to impossible to oneshot somewhen with 3 healers around.


@Toned:

I am playing on an EU Realm ... so i cannot transfer to an US Realm.

Grim batol FTW ;)



The thing is, would you wanna play with a boxer who is doing all the fun stuff (killing, capping,) while you get ordered to sit at a base and defend it? That wouldn't be my kind of game tbh as a solo player.

If the oposing team has a clue, every base should get attacked and everyone should get some combat going on. If that's not the case, then there's no point in defending bases and just farm them at ST/Farm.

People hardly accept that not every base needs defense. If you got the alliance/horde back to ST or Farm and you see a few heading for a base, then it should be no problem to follow them and stop them from assaulting/defending the base. The thing is, people need to respond immediatly for this to work, which often doesn't happen.

[Fat Tire]

I wish all boxer well in rated bgs, I am sure some will do well. Relatively speaking.

One huge benefit to boxers I believe is coming ....not being able to use certain pve items in arena/rated bgs. No more pve heros in pvp.


http://imgur.com/Z7XhG.png

[BrothelMeister]

The thing is, would you wanna play with a boxer who is doing all the fun stuff (killing, capping,) while you get ordered to sit at a base and defend it? That wouldn't be my kind of game tbh as a solo player.

Well, since this is how I win my Pug BGs, I see no reason why I couldn't explain this role to a premade. Teams are always composed of different people, arguing that if you're not killing you're no having fun is the same as saying there are no healers...

[BrothelMeister]

The thing is, would you wanna play with a boxer who is doing all the fun stuff (killing, capping,) while you get ordered to sit at a base and defend it? That wouldn't be my kind of game tbh as a solo player.

Well, since this is how I win my Pug BGs, I see no reason why I couldn't explain this role to a premade. Teams are always composed of different people, arguing that if you're not killing you're no having fun is the same as saying there are no healers...


In arena's healers heal for 10% less then they do in BG's if i'm correct. That's quite noticable, which makes it close to impossible to oneshot somewhen with 3 healers around. .

Nope, the 10% nerf applies to all PvP environments, including arena, BG, and WG

[remanz]

BG is all about the healers. With proper gear, dps is no matter. Preferably range than melee. and if the game is who can get 100 kills first, I think boxing have hope.

Its not like you kill them once then you won. They come back with full HP. For the bg that are ok to box, win or lose is still most likely up to your healers, not your raw firepower.


I see dual-box, triple makes more sense, than taking 4-5 slots.

[Kruschpakx4]

I have a bad feeling about caster teams in rated bgs, I'm trying shamans in the first season, if it doesnt work I'm going to melee boxing - dks or rogues and not more than 4

you dont loose rating, so you can grind up to 2.4k for high warlord, so it should be way easier than arena

[Sephice]

I think you cant loose rating in arena too ( only vs very low teams but same in rated bgs )

forget rogue boxing, they have to big cc problems, shs dont kreak snare ( long time ago -_- )

but i think arena is a good way for boxers, we will see but i think ele teams are very strong at the beginning, because just the best burst and good heal aswell.

[Fat Tire]

I have a bad feeling about caster teams in rated bgs, I'm trying shamans in the first season, if it doesnt work I'm going to melee boxing - dks or rogues and not more than 4

you dont loose rating, so you can grind up to 2.4k for high warlord, so it should be way easier than arena

Lets put this to rest....



Judging from the posts on the forum, it looked like most players were confused about what rated battlegrounds really are and how to interact with them. Hopefully this FAQ can help clear up some of those questions. Feel free to respond with any other questions you might have and we will do our best to post up the answers in this thread.


Rated Battlegrounds are broken down into three brackets. 10v10, 15v15 and 25v25. These brackets rotate weekly and can be viewed in-game via the calendar by activating the battleground holiday filter.

Players must create a raid with the full number of players required for the current bracket before entering the queue. Any level 85 player of your faction may participate in the battle (regardless of guild association).

When players win a battle, they are rewarded conquest points, up to their weekly cap. Weekly caps are individual for each player and are based on your highest single pvp rating from the previous week (the cap resets on Tuesdays). This rating can be derived from your 2v2, 3v3, 5v5 arena, or your rated battleground rating.

Players start at zero rated battleground rating and progress upward from there. Rating is only reduced after a lost battle when the player is above their internal matchmaking rating. For the most part, a rating only goes up.

Epic ground mounts will be rewarded at the end of each season to the top 0.5% of players. Titles are also available as you gain rating in the system. The titles are rewarded directly from achievements earned from gaining the required rating.

Winning a rated battleground with a team composed of 80% guild members will result in the additional benefit of guild experience gain for your guild. The UI will display a guild banner near the minimap that lets you know if you are eligible for guild achievements and experience.



Does your internal matchmaking rating go down in the event of a loss?
Yes, but different than arenas, if you are higher rated than most of your team, it will go down less. Likewise, when you win, it will go up more. This way, if you are an established good player, there’s less risk in playing with less skilled team mates. It does make the assumption that the better players tend to carry more of the weight, which may not accurate in every game, but is accurate on average.

Does MMR for RBGs function the same as it does in Arena? I.E. - goes up more when you beat a higher-rated team, and goes down more when you lose to a lower-rated team ?
Yes. MMR goes up faster if you defeat a team with a higher MMR.

What is the plan to prevent your rating from skyrocketing at high win ratios? If your rating only goes down when it is *above* your MMR, it seems that ratings will just be high on average (compared to arena)
If a team’s rating gets inflated much beyond their MMR, they will get only a few points when they win, and lose many more points when they lose, until they are back down to their MMR. This will prevent inflation.

You can and will lose rating, I dont know how anyone can read it any other way. We just dont know at what point the person starts to bypass their mmr resulting in their rating going down from a loss.

[heyaz]

I have a bad feeling about caster teams in rated bgs, I'm trying shamans in the first season, if it doesnt work I'm going to melee boxing - dks or rogues and not more than 4

you dont loose rating, so you can grind up to 2.4k for high warlord, so it should be way easier than arena

I have a similar feeling.. lack of mobility and easy aoe cc are going to be a major weakness of all caster groups and maybe even mutliboxers in general, especially in the context of a BG that has an objective, not just standing on a platform trying to get 5 kills.

I think the whole landscape will change and we'll either have to adjust or it just won't work. With all the excitement and very little concern over viability in this thread I get the feeling people are imagining things like they are in pug BGs - standing in a place mostly untouched just blowing stuff up. Even arena, where we did well (especially those who stuck it out in season 8), is still different than a BG.

In my head I picture rated BGs like playing top end arena teams this expansion - 2500+ MMR, just a bum rush of every cooldown, aoe cc, and massive healing with virtually no delay in reaction, with the added challenge that there's an objective beyond standing in one place and killing 5 people. I've done enough BGs to see just 2 or 3 skilled players in a group render my team useless.. now imagine the entire team behind that. I'm not sure yet of how it will play out having the rest of your team be skilled as well - can they adapt to the multiboxer and overcome the other team, or are they just going to waste time healing and dispelling a group of stationary casters not accomplishing anything towards winning the BG. Can't say for sure yet.

I think 25-mans have the best chance for any multibox group, 15 mans maybe, 10 mans I really have difficulty justifying taking up 4 slots just so I can blow things up. If you can do 25 man every week, that would be amazing. If not, maybe during 10 man week, if it's just not viable, you could do arena instead.

[Bollwerk]

The good thing (for me) about rated BGs is that I'll be put with people that suck as bad as me... right?

[BrothelMeister]

I don't know how people can think that taking up 4 slots in a 10v10 is Bad. In 5v5, we take up 80% of the team!

With coordinated efforts from Both sides, a 10v10 with a 4 Boxer will not be any worse off than an arena with 4 boxer.

Now, when it comes to multiple boxers, yes, I can see how more than one 4-5 boxer in a 10v10, or 15v15 would be pretty harsh, since it really cuts down on the ground your team can cover. But a single 4-5 boxer on a team can definitely be a good tool to the team's toolbox, especially as an assassin of Flag carriers.

[heyaz]

I don't know how people can think that taking up 4 slots in a 10v10 is Bad. In 5v5, we take up 80% of the team!.

Arena is a lot different, you mostly stand in one place and the only objective is to kill the other players. In 10 man battlegrounds (WSG specifically) there is a more important objective - to capture the flag. The other team can do a lot to limit your mobility, including sapping one of your shaman at a time. Not to mention if you lose a shaman or two while traveling you either have to continue to go return the flag with half your team, or run back and get the others. I've seen a single rogue, in a pug, make me completely useless for an entire WSG by sapping one shaman at a time. You can bet that will be a pretty common strategy for premades. I know you've played enough arenas to know that you don't get a guaranteed kill even with all four shaman, especially when the flag carrier might have multiple healers. Unlike arena, killing off healers or targets annoying you with heavy CC doesn't always equal a win - they respawn and come back. I've spent plenty of WSG games nuking targets 1 by 1 trying to get a shot at the flag carrier only to have them respawn over and over. This kind of thing happens in AB as well and is the reason a boxer often cannot capture a node by themselves - you end up killing the same guys 4 times and eventually go OOM or start losing shaman, and never accomplish anything.

As for using a boxer for killing the flag carrier - it's not always going to work out like that. I've played enough arena to see 4 or even only 3 DPS global my shaman so many times because they're better positioned, more efficient with spells, and able to take advantage of the situation with CC and also have others help debuff your team before the global kill. Instant lava bursts and other kill combos just isn't a instant, guaranteed kill anymore.

[drevil]

rated bgs = complete different from non-rated bgs!

10er rated bgs will be hell... they only need 1 rogue to cripple your team movement all the time
and movement is a important key for the win.

ofcourse we will still rock in EOS :-)

[BrothelMeister]

Well I guess we'll see how things change come Cataclysm, but as it is for the moment (which yes, will not be the same in a month) no number of healers can keep a target alive if I get even close to a good burst. 12 spells hitting at once (Nuke+Chain Lightning+Shock) is far more than enough to run a target from 50k hp to 0, which means that a healer is worthless.

If you're on a team that pays attention, and that you can communicate with, a rogue locking you down just means it's time for you to change objectives. Instead of trying to move, your new goal should be to defend a location until the rogue leaves or you can find him.

[Littleburst]

Well I guess we'll see how things change come Cataclysm, but as it is for the moment (which yes, will not be the same in a month) no number of healers can keep a target alive if I get even close to a good burst. 12 spells hitting at once (Nuke+Chain Lightning+Shock) is far more than enough to run a target from 50k hp to 0, which means that a healer is worthless.

If you're on a team that pays attention, and that you can communicate with, a rogue locking you down just means it's time for you to change objectives. Instead of trying to move, your new goal should be to defend a location until the rogue leaves or you can find him.

at once = 3 GCD's. That's a 15-20k penance heal for example. Only 30k dmg left. If this was the case, then every boxer should've been rated first in 5's. Bg is no difference. I really don't see us globalling people that often. I'm thinking about good players. Same as in arena, people will notice EM and pop a defensive CD. Bad ones die anyway.

I think it would be usefull to write out which abilities/items could help us getting rogues out of stealth.

A start:
Warlock's Voidwalker using Consume shadows = increased stealth detection for party members.
A hunter using Track Hidden will increase his stealth detection.

Catseye Ultra Goggles (no stats/ only increased stealth detection moderatly.)
Hyper-Vision Goggles (a 15 sec detection increase on a 2 min CD.)
Recipe: Elixir of the Searching Eye (increases your stealth detection for 10 min.)

Not sure if this is correct: "Stealth detection only works in front of you. There is a 180 degree field where your stealth detection works."

[Kruschpakx4]

10s can work too, in wsg for example you're defending the base while your mates are going to grab the flag

[Alemi]

10s can work too, in wsg for example you're defending the base while your mates are going to grab the flag

Any half decent rogue can get by 4 or 5 shamans with ease. A really good dk can do it, assuming boots are up - and come cata, darkflight (even with it's nerf on beta today, pretty much means most lots of worgen combos can get by without any issue for horde boxers.

Back in the vanilla days (before battlegroups during the HWL/GM grind days) when we'd do premade wsg vs other premade guild wsgs, it was always about assist training and, quite literally, moving as a complete group. We'd leave 0 on defense and split into, normally a 7/3 split (7 to return ours on the way back and 3 to take theirs to the cap). I don't forsee it being that much different this time around.

As far as rogues in stealth, popping them out won't be as much of a problem as passive stealth was greatly nerfed. Unless I missed something, Master of Deception (increases stealth by 3 levels making it near impossible to detect without some kind of bonus) and Feral Instinct were removed or redesigned. I've been catching stealthers like crazy (nelfs too). And it is true, you can only detect those in your immediate LOS.

[BrothelMeister]

at once = 3 GCD's.

I'm so confused what you are referring to. Yes it takes me 3 GCD's to cast, but when you cast those 3 spells in that order, all 3 hit at once, as in one instant (less than .25 seconds) and 3 spells for a 4-boxer is 12 spells.

Those 12 spells for my team are Lighting Bolt, Chain Lightning,and Flame Shock, and add up to a minimum of 50k damage with 0 resilience, or 30k with 1400 resilience.

If thats not good enough, theres always Lava Burst (no Flame shock up)->Chain Lightning -> Earth Shock (say 2 Charges of Fulmination each?) and hit for a minimum of 70k, or 42K with resilience.

These should be more than enough to drop your opponents.

[Alemi]

And .... 25 man rated BGs were removed today. Only 10 and 15. I was kind of looking forward to rated AV and IOC - oh well.

[Littleburst]

And .... 25 man rated BGs were removed today. Only 10 and 15. I was kind of looking forward to rated AV and IOC - oh well.

Erm what? I did not want to believe that :/

Unfortunatly:

After much though and deliberation, we have decided to remove the 25 v 25 bracket from rated battlegrounds. We felt that overall, it created too many logistical issues for players and that in the long run, most players would just skip that week in the rotation. http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=27607280587&sid=2000&pageNo=7
post 125


@ brothel, I just think you're just stating it a bit simple. But let alone our burst. That's the least of our problems really. The only thing i'm worried about is our mobility and how easily we're controlled by the oposing faction.

[Ualaa]

That sucks...
Was really looking forward to 25v25 weeks, and less so to the 10v10 weeks.

Still, it comes down to playing "x" rated games a week, every week.
Until you reach the cap for Conquest Points, for that week.

If a 5-boxer is a drain on a typical WSG.
It might mean 100 games that week to cap on points.

[heyaz]

That sucks...
Was really looking forward to 25v25 weeks, and less so to the 10v10 weeks.

Still, it comes down to playing "x" rated games a week, every week.
Until you reach the cap for Conquest Points, for that week.

If a 5-boxer is a drain on a typical WSG.
It might mean 100 games that week to cap on points.

Sounds like the arena grind again
a million games to 2k again because of crap win ratio.. and a million more if you want to get much higher.

Shame they removed 25 mans, we could really shine there.

[heyaz]

Back in the vanilla days (before battlegroups during the HWL/GM grind days) when we'd do premade wsg vs other premade guild wsgs, it was always about assist training and, quite literally, moving as a complete group. We'd leave 0 on defense and split into, normally a 7/3 split (7 to return ours on the way back and 3 to take theirs to the cap). I don't forsee it being that much different this time around.

I played thousands of premades starting from early WSG twink days to the GM grind and I remember those strats. I see it being very similar. I see stalemates as well.

When I think about how rated BG's will be - I think of the incredible coordination and skill back in vanilla premades, multiply it by 5 (since twitchy, instant reflex. amazing pvpers seemed to come off an assembly line ever since late BC), throw in aoe cc and high damage or even bubbles for every class, and finally add the fact that people are familiar with multiboxers and their weaknesses.

It will definitely be a challenge, and no offense to any of the posters here, many of which did phenomenal in season 8 (which I mostly missed), but the 'I'll just do my super instagib nuke combo and win the game' nonsense is getting tired. If we want to formulate strategies that will work, we need to consider all the variables and possible counters instead of romanticizing about instagibbing flag carriers from behind trees in pugs.

[remanz]

Well, i think they just buffed HP by another 25% on PTR just now. 120k mages. and the flag carrier are gonna be tanks in premade. No doubt. So it will be a 200k prodin carry the flag. I don't think 4 shamans can do it there. Need to CC the healers on their side and coordinate to get a kill.

In addition, other than the HP madness, Skill like these really worries me:

Power Word: Barrier duration reduced to 10 sec, down from 25 sec. No longer absorbs a given amount of damage, now reduces all damage done to friendly targets by 30%. While within the barrier, spellcasting will not be interrupted by damage.

When they have a priest, you better got one for your own.

[remanz]

And speaking of prod, the self heal abilities of DK and paladin are insane right now.

When vengeance kicks in (likely to happen when you focus fire him), http://www.wowhead.com/spell=84839

[23:56:14.653] Towelliee Word of Glory Towelliee +*27973*
[23:56:17.923] Towelliee Word of Glory Towelliee +18573
[23:56:27.366] Towelliee Word of Glory Towelliee +26436
[23:56:36.876] Towelliee Word of Glory Towelliee +28140
[23:56:50.122] Towelliee Word of Glory Towelliee +16417 (O: 13125)
[23:56:52.094] Dammerians Word of Glory Croma
[23:56:59.732] Towelliee Word of Glory Towelliee +28785
[23:57:03.068] Towelliee Word of Glory Towelliee +32642
[23:57:07.739] Towelliee Word of Glory Towelliee +34844
[23:57:17.216] Towelliee Word of Glory Towelliee +37692

And even more crazy, DK heals even more ,

Death Strike heals about 10% of full hp , not base. So it heals like 20k non crit.

[Barazanthul]

Short Update on BG Tactics for AB:

We played as a 10, later as a 15 Man Grp. We started with 4 Shamans (Me) and then added Sephice DK's to the team (He forgot to invite them the first BG :P). Invite time hovered around 14 Minutes.

We played with 4 Shamans 4 DK's as boxers and had 2 or 3 regular dd's (one dd swapped to a healer) and the rest filled with healers mostly paladins and one fail tree :P.

The strat was fairly simple i was going for the smith and sephice for the mines, both of us with a pockethealer. The other 4 went for the lumbermill and one guy stayed and tapped our first base. Then it was basically a def game. I was running from smith to lumber and back. and sephice zerged the stables to keep them busy. We had a healer at every base, to call incs.

We went against some randoms but also some halfpremades (10 Guys from the same server) and it went quite well. Against the randoms it was fairly simple against the premades we dropped one base and played the savegame with only 3 bases.

[Feehza]

sephice zerged the stables to keep them busy


This is only possible with randoms oder newbies. I dont think this will work in rated BGs.

[Barazanthul]

As i said before this was only against the first premades. Later we only kept 2 bases and played the defend game.

[drevil]

AB with boxers only is not possibe vs real pvp group, because they will simply outrun you.

i think becomes pretty clear what cata pvp will be.. a cc game.

[Littleburst]

AB with boxers only is not possibe vs real pvp group, because they will simply outrun you.

i think becomes pretty clear what cata pvp will be.. a cc game.

You will not be able to solo it like we can do in pugs, but a boxer is definitely viable for any BG. The immense advantage; coordinated burst will still be very helpfull. No matter the battleground, aslong as it's for 10 players+.

[Fat Tire]

http://www.computerstructures.com/images/Large_command_center_Small.jpg

[BrothelMeister]

3 teams of 4 boxers with a pocket healer each, set up at a base each would definitely be plausible for AB and EotS.

[Littleburst]

3 teams of 4 boxers with a pocket healer each, set up at a base each would definitely be plausible for AB and EotS.

I thought about that. The problem i forsee happening is that each base will get over run 1 by 1. Which is somewhat hard to counter with 3 boxers. Since you'll leave a base undefended very fast.

I think in general the best tactic is to let the boxer be the tank getting the dirty work done. Attack bases if needed, help defend where the alliance are in numbers etc. Goes for any BG really.

[Ualaa]

With AB.. from the Blacksmith you're very close to both Farm and Stables.
It's not that far to go, to lend support.
In pug vs pug PvP, it isn't that hard to hold/support two of these with five toons.

Two boxers could take Farm and Stables, and jointly support Blacksmith as required.
Three boxers could attempt to hold all three, lending support as necessary.

It comes down to, can you hold your base with a team of five.
Or possibly with a team of four, plus a single boxed support healer.
Against an equal or larger group?
Because they can send 2 against Farm, 2 against Stables and 10 against Blacksmith.

Possibly set your DPS to follow and assist your Focus, if the Focus exists and is friendly?
That way, you could spam your DPS key, and leave 1-2 toons with a solo toon, while taking the rest of your team elsewhere.
Got the idea of the support, from a recent two 5-boxers in a 10-man raid thread.

[Sam DeathWalker]

If I understand correctly I will be able to set up a raid with my guys (10 or 15 or 25) and just enter by myself. I know Ill get hammered but 25X times the exp (I mean for the time it takes a solo player to get X exp on one toon (for a loose) Ill get the same X on 25 toons lol .... )

And I dont have to listen to others whining about this or that.

Sounds to good to be true. Just have to last awhile actually if there is a 25 man AV and I just turtle it will drag the game out a long time and Ill get a lot of honor even with a lose if I can kill enough of the enemy, which really won't be hard while sitting in the base. In fact it might even be possible to hold one tower, maybe not though.

Is there any way to take out the boss with all towers up, with 25 guys going into the battle?

A stong tank, 4 restro shaman healing and 20 aoe dps? Does CC work on the tower guys? Sheep or Hex?

In IOC can you breach a wall without a machine? With just player dps? I think you can get close enough to be under where the turent guns can't hit you. Are you able to make the bombs with an engineer 450 prior to the battle to take out walls? Also, as horde you can get something from the docks I think and place it so it cant be hit but can hit the west wall I think, migth be possible to take just one machine and breach that way, then with focus fire ....

Or Ill just get completly hammered but still walk away wiht a ton of exp and honor, comparitivly.


If you have a rogue can you clearly see other rogues, with that rogue? Whats the best defense to a rogue sapping one guy at a time, I know I got shut down one AV because of it.

[Ualaa]

It looks like they have removed 25-man rated battlegrounds.
But you could certainly run 25-man normal AV's.

You receive experience, at the points where you would receive honor for achieving objectives.
So maximum experience will be achieved by completing the most objectives, along with the win.

If you wanted repeated losses, but maximum losing honor...
Probably ensure you take out Galv/Belinda in each game.
And that you take/hold-until-burnt two towers/bunkers.

AV seems to be a zerg to the end now.
So, three objectives should complete shortly before winning/losing.
If the other team does not actively defend the general, a five box decently geared set of toons can handle the general and two guys up.

[Boylston]

Rated BGs and boxers will absolutely be possible. I think the keys are:

* Probably want to only bring 4, especially for a 10-man. WSG will likely continue to be very tough for a lot of setups.

* More than 1 boxer is going to be a problem. You simply need some good team support to be the most competitive.

* Our advantages of coordinated burst and movement will still be important and useful.

* You will need to have different strategies than many other team setups, which may turn out to be useful.

* Many teams, even good ones, will become fixated on "killing the boxer", which may allow your teammates to operate more effectively. Smart teams may only allocate one person to this task, which could be quite problemmatic. (One rogue CAN make life miserable).

* Good boxers will respond to these new challenges and adapt/overcome!!!

[Sam DeathWalker]

Well 15 is still ok .... , not as nice as 25 but still nice.

Is the queing going to change for normal AV's, I can make 5 groups of 5 and click on all 5 to enter the que at the same time but its still hit or miss if I can't que as a raid.

Ya I am sure I can take out bal and hold single towers untill burnning but question is how many until they kill my undefended general. But ya that seems the way to go, take out bal and as many towers as is possible.

[Ualaa]

Rated BG's, will require entering as a raid of the appropriate size.

Experience in a battleground, does not require the rated BG at all.

Not sure if you'll be able to enter say AV as a 25-man raid.
But if you can enter as a raid, that would be nice for you.

[Mokoi]

Sam, why would you even bother with rated BGs? You can only do 10 or 15 mans, and your team is not going to win any of them with any regularity by yourself. I haven't heard yet if you will even get any honor for rated BGs.. does anyone have info on that? you don't get any HKs in arenas, why would you in r-bgs?


Excellent plan, Agent Sam. You will be able to enter rated BGs without a hope of winning.. serving only to boost the alliance teams quickly and efficiently. We value your continued service.

=)

[Sam DeathWalker]

Well exp would be good enough, even without honor.

I guess wait and see is the best course as ususal things are always changing.

Ya I guess ally would get the edge over me but hey I gots to get my guys up also. Its like 10 times more fun to exp with pvp vs. killing the same mobs for 1000th time. And of course only my rating would go down, I doubt I will lose enough games to give ally any real edge considering there are 12 million players.

[Alemi]

Ya I guess ally would get the edge over me but hey I gots to get my guys up also. Its like 10 times more fun to exp with pvp vs. killing the same mobs for 1000th time. And of course only my rating would go down, I doubt I will lose enough games to give ally any real edge considering there are 12 million players.

A. Rating only happens in rated bgs.
B. Rated bgs only happen at 85.
C. Level 85 is max level
D. Experience at 85... kind of pointless

[Littleburst]

A. Rating only happens in rated bgs.
B. Rated bgs only happen at 85.
C. Level 85 is max level
D. Experience at 85... kind of pointless

I bet it still makes sense to him.

[Boylston]

Every forum needs a Don Quixote!

[Alemi]

Every forum needs a Don Quixote!

Best line ever.

I will now never get that image out of my head when I see a post like this... thankyouverymuch. :)

[Sam DeathWalker]

Well exp at 85 is usless well so much for rated BG's .....

Guess I can just hope they will let raids que at some point in the furtue in non rated.


Any ideas on how to handle the rogue sapper that saps one guy at a time? I just hope with my own rogue I can see him while he is stealth, I guess another rogue dosnt have an edge like before 4.0.1 and that hunters can see them best, but seems vanish is broken and Mirror Image will hit them lol .... and the shaman fire totem that casts, and pets har.

[Ualaa]

Looks like Rogues/Druids do not have any talent which improves stealth or the detection of stealthed units.

With the old talents, a Rogue/Druid would stealth as if they were 3 levels above you (or 4, if they were a Night Elf).

Not sure if all rogues/cats (or just rogues maybe) get the equivalent of the Subtlety talent built into stealth, or if stealth is less effective than previously.

AoE should knock the rogue out of stealth, if you can land it. Cloak might make them virtually immune to spells for a short duration, but that's the best you can do.

With an army, having 15 toons at one base is not ideal; if you were a smaller boxer, just having five at a flag/graveyard until it capped and then holding it, can be worthwhile for your team.

[Mokoi]

Any ideas on how to handle the rogue sapper that saps one guy at a time? I just hope with my own rogue I can see him while he is stealth, I guess another rogue dosnt have an edge like before 4.0.1 and that hunters can see them best, but seems vanish is broken and Mirror Image will hit them lol .... and the shaman fire totem that casts, and pets har.

1. Setup FTL
2. profit

[Mokoi]

When I 10 boxed in BGs, I would have one PvP team and one PvE team. My PvE team would hold bunkers, kill bosses, and do the PvE stuff in AV, and my PvP team (shamans, druids) would assault stuff, aoe horde and make life difficult for them.

s 5 druids to run around a lot, and a pally / 3 lock / resto shaman group to hold towers and help defend while assaulting galv and such, and then tanking drek when it was time.

[Alemi]

I just hope with my own rogue I can see him while he is stealth

Comment like this make me wonder if we play the same game...


and that hunters can see them best, but seems vanish is broken and Mirror Image will hit them lol .... and the shaman fire totem that casts, and pets har. Yesterday 08:47 PM

Despite the stream of consciousness that this sentence is...

a) Track Hidden gives hunters a 6 level advantage to see units in stealth; however it does not increase the detect range, nor allow them to see stealth units behind them still.
b) Vanish is fixed in the next build so pets will no longer hit or follow vanished units.
c) if the rogue vanishes before your spell cast goes off, or before your mirror image/searing totem spell goes off it will no longer hit the rogue since it has been fixed to drop target. Rogues; however, cannot use vanish as they did before to stop a spell from hitting them mid flight as it has worked all throughout Wrath.

Regardless, if your problem is a rogue sapping you then I fail to see how vanish is really the big concern here. Sap's range is only 10 yards. For ele shaman, glyphed and talented, Fire Nova is 20 yrds. I find 15 to be sufficient but that's just me.

[Sam DeathWalker]

It used to be that rogues had a talent that lets them see other rogues better, sorry if I'm not up on every change on every class I play (7) ....

Hunters track also puts them on the mini map and if the hunter can mark them then .... , but I dont have a hunter.

My shaman are restro and my mages are fire .... I use frost nova and arcane explosion but they are only 10 yards.

Let me see if there is a way to get a mage aoe to more then 10 yards.

Still with a lot of mirror image up one of them should see the rogue when he saps and start casting on him.

[zenga]

The more I read up on rated bg's and the more I think about it, the less inclined I am to box rated BG's. It's basically an extension of arena. A concept I don't really like.

- no AV / Isle of Conquest -> this is a huge issue for me
- same rules as arena, no engineering boots, etc ... not pots, flasks, etc ...
- no fire elementals ... which I find a retarded rule given the fact that any other class can use their pet

I think I'll just stick to queuing up for individual BG's, Since 3.3. and the random BG queues there was hardly 1 AV each hour, but since they merged the BG's, it seems like even at 5 am their are AV's going. Which is awesome for me.

[Mercbeast]

1. Setup FTL
2. profit

Yep, absolutely. While leveling my DK's I can't tell you how many times I've had someone jump me and blow up my lead character. I don't even have to switch to a new client. I just target him and spam my DPS/Chains of Ice/Grip on the guy and smoke him ;p