MASSIVE changes incoming to ALL talent trees!

[Tehmuffinman]

SRC: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=25626290449

When we first announced our design goals for class talent trees back at BlizzCon 2009, one of our major stated focuses was to remove some of the boring and "mandatory" passive talents. We mentioned that we wanted talent choices to feel more flavorful and fun, yet more meaningful at the same time. Recently, we had our fansites release information on work-in-progress talent tree previews for druids, priests, shaman, and rogues. From those previews and via alpha test feedback, a primary response we heard was that these trees didn’t incorporate the original design goals discussed at BlizzCon. This response echoes something we have been feeling internally for some time, namely that the talent tree system has not aged well since we first increased the level cap beyond level 60. In an upcoming beta build, we will unveil bold overhauls of all 30 talent trees.

Talent Tree Vision

One of the basic tenets of Blizzard game design is that of “concentrated coolness.” We’d rather have a simpler design with a lot of depth, than a complicated but shallow design. The goal for Cataclysm remains to remove a lot of the passive (or lame) talents, but we don’t think that’s possible with the current tree size. To resolve this, we're reducing each tree to 31-point talents. With this reduction in tree size we need to make sure they're being purchased along a similar leveling curve, and therefore will also be reducing the number of total talent points and the speed at which they're awarded during the leveling process.

As a result, we can keep the unique talents in each tree, particularly those which provide new spells, abilities or mechanics. We’ll still have room for extra flavorful talents and room for player customization, but we can trim a great deal of fat from each tree. The idea isn’t to give players fewer choices, but to make those choices feel more meaningful. Your rotations won’t change and you won’t lose any cool talents. What will change are all of the filler talents you had to pick up to get to the next fun talent, as well as most talents that required 5 of your hard-earned points.

We are also taking a hard look at many of the mandatory PvP talents, such as spell pushback or mechanic duration reductions. While there will always be PvP vs. PvE builds, we’d like for the difference to be less extreme, so that players don’t feel like they necessarily need to spend their second talent specialization on a PvP build.

The Rise of Specialization

We want to focus the talent trees towards your chosen style of gameplay right away. That first point you spend in a tree should be very meaningful. If you choose Enhancement, we want you to feel like an Enhancement shaman right away, not thirty talent points later. When talent trees are unlocked at level 10, you will be asked to choose your specialization (e.g. whether you want to be an Arms, Fury or Protection warrior) before spending that first point. Making this choice comes with certain benefits, including whatever passive bonuses you need to be effective in that role, and a signature ability that used to be buried deeper in the talent trees. These abilities and bonuses are only available by specializing in a specific tree. Each tree awards its own unique active ability and passives when chosen. The passive bonuses range from flat percentage increases, like a 20% increase to Fire damage for Fire mages or spell range increases for casters, to more interesting passives such as the passive rage regeneration of the former Anger Management talent for Arms warriors, Dual-Wield Specialization for Fury warriors and Combat rogues, or the ability to dual-wield itself for Enhancement shaman.

The initial talent tree selection unlocks active abilities that are core to the chosen role. Our goal is to choose abilities that let the specializations come into their own much earlier than was possible when a specialization-defining talent had to be buried deep enough that other talent trees couldn’t access them. For example, having Lava Lash and Dual-Wield right away lets an Enhancement shaman feel like an Enhancement shaman. Other role-defining examples of abilities players can now get for free at level 10 include Mortal Strike, Bloodthirst, Shield Slam, Mutilate, Shadow Step, Thunderstorm, Earth Shield, Water Elemental, and Penance.

Getting Down to the Grit

Talent trees will have around 20 unique talents instead of today's (roughly) 30 talents, and aesthetically will look a bit more like the original World of Warcraft talent trees. The 31-point talents will generally be the same as the 51-point talents we already had planned for Cataclysm. A lot of the boring or extremely specialized talents have been removed, but we don't want to remove anything that’s going to affect spell/ability rotations. We want to keep overall damage, healing, and survivability roughly the same while providing a lot of the passive bonuses for free based on your specialization choice.

While leveling, you will get 1 talent point about every 2 levels (41 points total at level 85). Our goal is to alternate between gaining a new class spell or ability and gaining a talent point with each level. As another significant change, you will not be able to put points into a different talent tree until you have dedicated 31 talent points to your primary specialization. While leveling, this will be possible at 70. Picking a talent specialization should feel important. To that end, we want to make sure new players understand the significance of reaching the bottom of their specialization tree before gaining the option of spending points in the other trees. We intend to make sure dual-specialization and re-talenting function exactly as they do today so players do not feel locked into their specialization choice.

A True Mastery

The original passive Mastery bonuses players were to receive according to how they spent points in each tree are being replaced by the automatic passive bonuses earned when a tree specialization is chosen. These passives are flat percentages and we no longer intend for them to scale with the number of talent points spent. The Mastery bonus that was unique to each tree will now be derived from the Mastery stat, found on high-level items, and Mastery will be a passive skill learned from class trainers around level 75. In most cases, the Mastery stats will be the same as the tree-unique bonuses we announced earlier this year. These stats can be improved by stacking Mastery Rating found on high-level items.

To Recap

When players reach level 10, they are presented with basic information on the three specializations within their class and are asked to choose one. Then they spend their talent point. The other trees darken and are unavailable until 31 points are spent in the chosen tree. The character is awarded an active ability, and one or more passive bonuses unique to the tree they've chosen. As they gain levels, they'll alternate between receiving a talent point and gaining new skills. They'll have a 31-point tree to work down, with each talent being more integral and exciting than they have been in the past. Once they spend their 31'st point in the final talent (at level 70), the other trees open up and become available to allocate points into from then on. As characters move into the level 78+ areas in Cataclysm, they'll begin seeing items with a new stat, Mastery. Once they learn the Mastery skill from their class trainer they'll receive bonuses from the stat based on the tree they've specialized in.

We understand that these are significant changes and we still have details to solidify. We feel, however, that these changes better fulfill our original class design goals for Cataclysm, and we're confident that they will make for a better gameplay experience. Your constructive feedback is welcomed and appreciated.

[Owltoid]

Wow... is it April 1?

F*ck... I had such an awesome team going that I'm sure was going to be the MB FOTM once peeps realized the strength. Now all I can do is wait and see if the game is going to be worthwhile...

Things are going to be really out of balance with this big of a change.

[Owltoid]

As another significant change, you will not be able to put points into a different talent tree until you have dedicated 31 talent points to your primary specialization. While leveling, this will be possible at 70. Picking a talent specialization should feel important. To that end, we want to make sure new players understand the significance of reaching the bottom of their specialization tree before gaining the option of spending points in the other trees. We intend to make sure dual-specialization and re-talenting function exactly as they do today so players do not feel locked into their specialization choice.

Huh?

At level 80 do I have to get a 31 point talent in a tree if I want to move on, or is that something that goes away at 70?

It's really f*cking retarded if they're forcing everyone to be cookie cutter.

[Tehmuffinman]

Things are going to be really out of balance with this big of a change.

Not necessarily... this could do the opposite and make things much MORE balanced and much EASIER to balance in the future.

One of the biggest obstacles to balance in the game was the sheer volume of talents... this change along with restricting points to a certain tree until 31 pts have been spent will allow for smoother and easier balancing.,

[Tehmuffinman]

Huh?

At level 80 do I have to get a 31 point talent in a tree if I want to move on, or is that something that goes away at 70?

It's really f*cking retarded if they're forcing everyone to be cookie cutter.

When you pick a specialization at lvl 10, you have to spent 31 pts in that tree before you can spend points in any other tree.

You reach the 31pt mark at lvl 70.

[Drizhal]

This kind of sounds like their mastery system/path of the titans from what I remember however Version 2...

It could be a very good change, simplify the trees make it less "I need 43.2 points here and then 12.4 here to be exactly perfect!" ...

To soon to tell...

[Owltoid]

This has taken the wind out of my sails more than any other Blizzard announcement, ever.

I loved being able to have flexibility. It's my favorite part of the game. If we're stuck in a cookie cutter build, then it's boring.

I know there's a lot of this going on, but this could definitely lead me to packing my WoW bags for good. Toon customization was the most fun part of the game for me, and if I look like every other toon because I am locked into a tree until I get 31 points, then I'll call it a day.

Who knows, maybe they'll surprise me once some more info is released, but once I read this all motivation to level my new team stopped.

[Tehmuffinman]

This has taken the wind out of my sails more than any other Blizzard announcement, ever.

I loved being able to have flexibility. It's my favorite part of the game. If we're stuck in a cookie cutter build, then it's boring.

I know there's a lot of this going on, but this could definitely lead me to packing my WoW bags for good. Toon customization was the most fun part of the game for me, and if I look like every other toon because I am locked into a tree until I get 31 points, then I'll call it a day.

Who knows, maybe they'll surprise me once some more info is released, but once I read this all motivation to level my new team stopped.

How is this sticking you in a cookie cutter build? I don't see that at ALL.

[Drizhal]

This is actually the opposite of cookie cutter...
Right now everyone is cookie cutter which is what they don't like.

If you are a tank you need to have X talent with Y points and Z talent with Y points.....If you don't have this joo suxxors!


They want to make it so it's, You are a tank, 1st point here's some cool bonuses just for deciding to be a tank, and the rest more useable/fun and less required talents...
This in a way opens up more to play with in the tree if the passive bonus gives you some of the "required" things...

This is also what they have wanted for awhile...I remember talk about that with the last dev team "Make talents more fun" etc..


Edit

Also....how are you not locked into a talent tree NOW for 41-51 points?

All the "Good stuff" is at the bottom in many cases especially while leveling...
What they propose is to make it so you get that cool ability within the first few talent points. So inevitably if they reduce the number of talents given per level and the max in a tree you'll see almost no difference for amount of time locked into a tree....

[Sam DeathWalker]

Clearly simplifies things. Kinda gonna hurt those who run 2 specs without going deep into one tree. Well I only have one guy that dosnt have the 51 point spec and thats my priest, so won't make much difference to me.

http://www.wowhead.com/talent#bEhbh0hVMbZbEthbdqV0h0z:VR0cMz

[Drizhal]

Clearly simplifies things. Kinda gonna hurt those who run 2 specs without going deep into one tree. Well I only have one guy that dosnt have the 51 point spec and thats my priest, so won't make much difference to me.

http://www.wowhead.com/talent#bEhbh0hVMbZbEthbdqV0h0z:VR0cMz

But this could argueably make it better for that type of toon by consolidating all the "Good" talents into less talents so you get more per point.
Plus they want to keep dual spec etc, win win so far...unless the talents come out completely f-ed up I think it'll be great.

[Owltoid]

I don't understand your guys logic at all. How is this not cookie cutter?! You are forced to be in only one tree for the vast majority of your points! There are no more hybrid specs, or playing around.

Yes, there will always only be one optimal tree for any particular situation. Theory crafting often provides that and it will for the new system. However, by forcing you into one tree, and in fact never allowing more than two trees), they are much more cookie cutter than ever before.

Who knows, maybe when the trees are released things will look much different and there will be so much variation within a tree that it's not cookie cutter, but the fact that you have to get the 31 point talent tells me otherwise. No more moonkin/healer combos since you can no longer forgo starfall to get some nice resto abilities. No more holy/disc priest combo since you're forced into penance (obviously I don't know if any of this is true, but we're all speculating with the info we have).

[Starbuck_Jones]

Interesting. Personally I feel as playing a raiding prot paladin that I have far too many abilities as it is. The only thing missing from my spell book is holy shock, divine storm, and crusader strike. By level 10 you should have your base utility spells like cleanse, crowd control, and buffs. And I hope they make you need them unlike the current game where you don't need to dis-spell till end game raid. (nothing like getting to 80 and having to learn what half your spell book does).

After level 10 when you pick your roll, then what you earn should be much more specific. Boomchickens should not have 5 different healing spells. An arcane mage should not have blizzard, Frost Nova, Blast Wave and Pyroblast.

I do not agree with locking out the other 2 talent trees until you max out one first. This to me says lazy because all they have to do is make something 11 points deep into those trees to make them unavailable. This also will make less unique talent builds. Things will be more cookie cutter in my opinion. If I want to put 13 points into each tree then I should be able to or do a 20/21/0 build, then that should be my choice.

Overall, the biggest surprise is this type of change so late in the development stage.

[Teal]

I think this will be a huge change for the good. It is not any more cookie cutter than it is now. I think this will greatly benefit the game as a whole. Every primary spec will feel more like there role from level 10 on... it will be much easier to balance groups now.

[Drizhal]

I don't understand your guys logic at all. How is this not cookie cutter?! You are forced to be in only one tree for the vast majority of your points! There are no more hybrid specs, or playing around.

Yes, there will always only be one optimal tree for any particular situation. Theory crafting often provides that and it will for the new system. However, by forcing you into one tree, and in fact never allowing more than two trees), they are much more cookie cutter than ever before.

Who knows, maybe when the trees are released things will look much different and there will be so much variation within a tree that it's not cookie cutter, but the fact that you have to get the 31 point talent tells me otherwise. No more moonkin/healer combos since you can no longer forgo starfall to get some nice resto abilities. No more holy/disc priest combo since you're forced into penance (obviously I don't know if any of this is true, but we're all speculating with the info we have).

True in some class cases it will take away that oddball spec...and yes it is cookie cutter but more to my points is as the guy 2 above said....

No more cookie cutter then it is now.

Locking you into specializing is not that big of a deal, in fact for being a class oriented talent selecting game WoW is amazingly versatile and it really won't change when you change numbers, as the guy above said.. Boomchickens have 5 different heals or so and so do ferals for that matter kinda crazy overall.

Since I tend to finish out most trees 31 point req to branch off and specialization is not that big of a deal to me. I forsee inceases at finishing out a tree and synergy with another "mastery".

All in all what are you losing in this case if they consolidate 51 talents into 31? Not much...just the illusion of control you had before simply because there were more numbers and I could randomly decide to do a 3 tree spec? Eh not that big of a deal really


On another note though I remember during LK release everyone complained that not all their 51 talents were clickables and this was something the devs were suggesting even then to take away that feeling of "every 21, 31, 41, 51 talent needs to be a clickable"

[Owltoid]

My panties are in a bunch over your guys viewpoints... Someone on the internetz is wrong!

You can like the new system, you can think these are great change, but I don't see how you think this isn't more cookie cutter.

Where were we forced to pick one tree in the past? How can having LESS options not lead to more uniformity? Again, I don't care if anyone says cookie cutter is the best way to go or simplification is ideal, but I truly don't understand how anyone can argue this isn't at least slightly more cookie cutter than the current system.

[Drizhal]

My panties are in a bunch over your guys viewpoints... Someone on the internetz is wrong!

You can like the new system, you can think these are great change, but I don't see how you think this isn't more cookie cutter.

Where were we forced to pick one tree in the past? How can having LESS options not lead to more uniformity? Again, I don't care if anyone says cookie cutter is the best way to go or simplification is ideal, but I truly don't understand how anyone can argue this isn't at least slightly more cookie cutter than the current system.
Because while you may not feel forced into a certain talent spec there are many many other players that feel they have to go X/51/X or some other combination where to feel like you have done something in your tree you have to be level...70ish or hit the 41/51 talent point mark in one tree

Allowing more consolidation among the talents and giving your abilities to you front loaded will make you feel less rammed into a spec. They haven't even told us how many the tree will max out at.. Who knows they may want you to be 1 tree for 1 spec that would make it much more cookie cutter but at this point all I see is that they say "You have to level a tree till 70" which A LOT of people do now anyways...how is that any different?

[Owltoid]

Because right now it's a choice. Even if that's what everone and their brother does, it's still a choice. Not forced.

I think this is the easy way out for Blizzard. Overall it will probably be a good thing for the game and increase the number of subscribers, so I don't blame them for doing it, but I'm guessing it's going to take out the part I enjoy most about this game (and what I thought many other multiboxers do too) - being different than the norm.

[Teal]

You can like the new system, you can think these are great change, but I don't see how you think this isn't more cookie cutter.

Where were we forced to pick one tree in the past? How can having LESS options not lead to more uniformity? Again, I don't care if anyone says cookie cutter is the best way to go or simplification is ideal, but I truly don't understand how anyone can argue this isn't at least slightly more cookie cutter than the current system.

If you are a disc priest and you want penance you have to max out the tree... if you are BM hunter and you want the spirit beast you have to max out the tree... The reality is that if you want to be a viable tank you have to cookie cut your talents to a certain point anyway... what is the difference? I can see how it would hose up some of your 5 man teams... but the game is not designed for your 5 man team.

Rolls are already uniform, they are already cookie cutter. For a enhancement shaman to have to use a 2hd weapon until he can get DW is retarded. Why is it better to wait for spec defining abilities? Why should a Tank druid have to put points into resto to be able to get tank talents? Why should a resto shaman have to wait to get earth shield if it is a class defining talent? It is not like they were not going to take that talent anyway....

[Drizhal]

Because right now it's a choice. Even if that's what everone and their brother does, it's still a choice. Not forced.

I think this is the easy way out for Blizzard. Overall it will probably be a good thing for the game and increase the number of subscribers, so I don't blame them for doing it, but I'm guessing it's going to take out the part I enjoy most about this game (and what I thought many other multiboxers do too) - being different than the norm.

For some classes it's an illusion of choice. Simply because EVERYONE does it, I don't remember the last time a resto druid didn't take wild growth...

So to get your abilities that you want now you are locked in, you just have the choice to skip them and not have them...Which isn't that much of a choice since most of them you want.

Class spec really doesn't mean much for being different in the long run when everyone else ALREADY has mostly the same talents and talent specs you do. Especially if you are a theorycrafter...

[Owltoid]

For some classes it's an illusion of choice. Simply because EVERYONE does it, I don't remember the last time a resto druid didn't take wild growth...

So to get your abilities that you want now you are locked in, you just have the choice to skip them and not have them...Which isn't that much of a choice since most of them you want.

Class spec really doesn't mean much for being different in the long run when everyone else ALREADY has mostly the same talents and talent specs you do. Especially if you are a theorycrafter...

There are restokins out there. They're rare, but they do exist.

[Owltoid]

If you are a disc priest and you want penance you have to max out the tree... if you are BM hunter and you want the spirit beast you have to max out the tree... The reality is that if you want to be a viable tank you have to cookie cut your talents to a certain point anyway... what is the difference? I can see how it would hose up some of your 5 man teams... but the game is not designed for your 5 man team team.

Rolls are already uniform, they are already cookie cutter. For a enhancement shaman to have to use a 2hd weapon until he can get DW is retarded. Why is it better to wait for spec defining abilities? Why should a Tank druid have to put points into resto to be able to get tank talents? Why should a resto shaman have to wait to get earth shield if it is a class defining talent? It is not like they were not going to take that talent anyway....

That's the point, I don't want penance. I have little use for a channeled spell given my playstyle. Before, I had that option. (based on assumption) Now I don't.

What's wrong with having retarded specs if that's more fun? Why does everything have to be cookie cutter or else fail?

This is Blizzards copout way of not being able to have good abilities that would overlap. Just giving the example of warriors, I remember long ago they were worried that bloodthirst and mortal strike would eventually be available given enough leveling and talent points. There are tons of other examples. Blizzard decided to reduce options so they wouldn't have to worry about the crazy combinations people could come up with.

I enjoyed the crazy combinations the most. Most others just want a cookie cutter build. Blizzard is doing the right thing by catering to the masses, but if this is truly limiting then those who enjoy trying creative builds will walk away.

[Lyonheart]

This is the part that i like the most

Quote" The initial talent tree selection unlocks active abilities that are core to the chosen role. Our goal is to choose abilities that let the specializations come into their own much earlier than was possible when a specialization-defining talent had to be buried deep enough that other talent trees could’t access them. For example, having Lava Lash and Dual-Wield right away lets an Enhancement shaman feel like an Enhancement shaman. Other role-defining examples of abilities players can now get for free at level 10 include Mortal Strike, Bloodthirst, Shield Slam, Mutilate, Shadow Step, Thunderstorm, Earth Shield, Water Elemental, and Penance. "

Having TS at level 10!?!?!? that will make low level BGs crazy fun for shamies! I like the idea that all specs will have class defining abilities early like this, your low level tank WILL be a TANK! I hated having to wait until 40+ to start feeling like the role i was trying to play!

[Teal]

I agree. It is the hardest part about being in blizzards spot. Do you continue to do the same thing over and over again or do you change and try new things? It is not like they are innovating for the sake of innovation... they are working towards a goal that they have had for a long time...

[Teal]

Agreed Lyonheart, it just makes much more sense to be able to live your roll from the beginning.

I love the idea of these changes... lets see how they implament them

[Ughmahedhurtz]

Some of the new talent trees look interesting but some of it is completely retarded. Bestial Discipline (focus regen for hunter pets) is a 5 point tier 1 talent, but you won't be able to take that and then go up the MM tree. Sucks balls, IMO.

And while it isn't cookie cutter for end-game, it enforces cookie-cutter playstyle while leveling, which would piss me off badly. That is, unless they're going to change how much it costs to respec to some stupidly low amount.

[Drizhal]

That's the point, I don't want penance. I have little use for a channeled spell given my playstyle. Before, I had that option. (based on assumption) Now I don't.

What's wrong with having retarded specs if that's more fun? Why does everything have to be cookie cutter or else fail?

This is Blizzards copout way of not being able to have good abilities that would overlap. Just giving the example of warriors, I remember long ago they were worried that bloodthirst and mortal strike would eventually be available given enough leveling and talent points. There are tons of other examples. Blizzard decided to reduce options so they wouldn't have to worry about the crazy combinations people could come up with.

I enjoyed the crazy combinations the most. Most others just want a cookie cutter build. Blizzard is doing the right thing by catering to the masses, but if this is truly limiting then those who enjoy trying creative builds will walk away.

Perhaps it is a cop out but as the game progresses and talent trees grow eventually and levels go even higher, let's theorycraft here for a bit and say they do another expansion after this one, however they follow the model of this xpac as well with only 5 levels...

That means I add 1 more row to each talent tree, I add 5 more talent points and I attempt to add even more spells to an already bloated spellbook of stuff.

At level 90 now, I am looking at 81 total talent points, a new row of talents possibly and a the ability to now take all those old specs and attempt to combine abilities... That's way to much bloat, to much confusion and to much possibility that my end talent point that I want gets nerfed due to it being buffed by some 20 pt talent that crossed with a 41 and another 20 that made it awesome....

Natural progression would be to remove the bloat, and give you options still (Same number just less chaos) and therefore less random OMFG PVP NEEDS PVE ABILITY NERF NAOW crap...

[Owltoid]

Are they going back to an Alpha testing or is this live in Beta? Any word on their timeline? This seems crazy to make massive changes like this unless they're going back to the drawing board.

[Duane]

I don't like the change that makes you put 31pts first. Some of my favorite leveling builds are mixed tree. For example on my DKs I like going up in Unholy to get the ghoul then putting the rest in Blood. Sure it's not optimal for DPS but it fun to solo and it suits my pre 80 play style to a T. As it looks now I'll have to go all the way to gargoyle before I'll be able to try and get something like Rune Tap.

[Bot]

you guys act like you just know you wont like the new way at all. what if turns out its sweet and totally playable. what if it turns out that you CAN find a new spec that fits you well. i have to channel svper and say i dont much like this sky is falling stuff. you havent even seen the new stuff yet. just relax. :cool:

edit: missed owltoids other post :(

[Svpernova09]

Blizzard Dev: Wow they're all nerd raging about our total lack of care about their real id privacy
Blizzard PR: QUICK LETS FUCK UP THEIR TALENT TREES SO THEY'LL FORGET ABOUT REALID!

[Owltoid]

I can tell you one of my favorite parts of the game is doing non-cookie cutter builds. Multiboxing accentuates that because you can really focus on some abilities that wouldn't work well solo, while being able to ignore the shortcomings others may have.

The sky may or may not be falling. Haven't cancelled the accounts yet. Just lost motivation to play for the time being.

It could be a great things and lots of fun. My money is on the opposite. I've lost plenty of money in bets before :)

[Owltoid]

Blizzard Dev: Wow they're all nerd raging about our total lack of care about their real id privacy
Blizzard PR: QUICK LETS FUCK UP THEIR TALENT TREES SO THEY'LL FORGET ABOUT REALID!

Heh, maybe it's the consipiracy theorist in me, but I definitely had the same thought.

[Sbrowne55]

This looks good to me, every class in the game right now has 1 or 2 at the most over-the-top cookie cutter builds, its terribly designed right now. I can see why they want to change it.

However, I am concerned about what is the total amount of pts in one tree? If its low then we will have a problem.

If 31pts covers 90% of the options in one tree then we're screwed. I hope there are less restrictions too, like stuff from the top of the tree.

[Owltoid]

After untwisting my panties a little bit, I've came to the following conclusion:

I like that they're taking out the meaningless talents to make a new talent point actually meaningful, but hate they're locking you into a talent tree until 31 points are spent.

There's hope in me that they get rid of that requirement, but I have a feeling that's the true motivation. The real problem Blizzard was having was with having a high-mid teir talent mixed with another high-mid teir talent in another tree causing too many combinations that they couldn't balance around.

Again, I see their point... I really do. I just don't want to look like every other moonkin/priest/warrior out there. Hopefully there's a ton of variability in a single tree allowing for variety.

[thefunk]

I think they should go the other way and add 300 talent points per build.

If only to see hilarious equations and over-thought out analysis over at EJ...

[thefunk]

Blizzard Dev: Wow they're all nerd raging about our total lack of care about their real id privacy
Blizzard PR: QUICK LETS FUCK UP THEIR TALENT TREES SO THEY'LL FORGET ABOUT REALID!

first time I laughed today.

[MiRai]

Wait so...
...you're forced into a cookie cutter build until level 70? My friend told me told me that nothing exciting is happening at level 70 these days.

I think I remember reading somewhere, on the internet, that Blizzard was saying in this new expansion we can expect to see level 85. We all know that the game doesn't start until the maximum level.

Soooooooo...

What was the problem again? :)

Don't forget to read the small print before you begin quoting me. I'm not talking about leveling talent builds, I'm talking about end game heroic instances and raiding talent builds. Thanks again to Svpernova09 for implementing [sarcasm] tags.

[Owltoid]

In the end game you're still forced to 31 points in a tree. We're talking about 31/38 points being in a single tree. How many of you have 82% of your talents all in one tree (the equivalent of 58 points)? Are you surprised when someone has less?

[remanz]

I feel like going backwards. remove CC/ anti-CC. less talents in the talent tree. Heck, we might as well just make the level cap 65. Or even better, build in some hypnosis in game UI, brain wash to erase my memory, make me start over again!

[Fat Tire]

I feel like going backwards. remove CC/ anti-CC. less talents in the talent tree. Heck, we might as well just make the level cap 65. Or even better, build in some hypnosis in game UI, brain wash to erase my memory, make me start over again!


Sounds about right. Its a whole new game coming.

With all these changes I feel like I got sucker punched.



In other news, Cataclysm will be delayed until 2012 to coincide with the end of the Mayan Calendar.

[Sbrowne55]

In the end game you're still forced to 31 points in a tree. We're talking about 31/38 points being in a single tree. How many of you have 82% of your talents all in one tree (the equivalent of 58 points)? Are you surprised when someone has less?


If you're right , these talents will probably be all cookie cutters.

[Owltoid]

While leveling, you will get 1 talent point about every 2 levels (41 points total at level 85).

So either you don't gain talents every other level and there are times where you gain points in consectutive levels, or this news is so fresh that it's being released because of the RealID mess. I understand that they said "about every 2 levels" but I'm wondering if Blizz is really on their heels and trying to release any info they can to distract the masses. I know, it's a continuation of Svper's conspiracy joke, but how is it they wouldn't have extended the Alpha if making this big of a change?

76 ÷ 2 <> 41

[Tehmuffinman]

So either you don't gain talents every other level and there are times where you gain points in consectutive levels, or this news is so fresh that it's being released because of the RealID mess. I understand that they said "about every 2 levels" but I'm wondering if Blizz is really on their heels and trying to release any info they can to distract the masses. I know, it's a continuation of Svper's conspiracy joke, but how is it they wouldn't have extended the Alpha if making this big of a change?

76 ÷ 2 <> 41

Acknowledging the fact he said "about every 2 levels" and than complaining the math doesn't work out makes no sense.

And I highly doubt if the cap is 41pts someone is going to spend 38 in one tree. You cannot work out the percentages the same way by comparing them to existing talent trees (And yes FYI I have 55 points in Resto on my shaman, which is pretty common). The percents won't work out the same way because talents that aren't being removed will most likely have their talent point requirements reduced (something that took 5 points before might now cost 2 points).

[Owltoid]

The math was there to show others what I was talking about.
The 38 was based on my incorrect assumption that it was every other level (the 82% is 31÷38)

[Mosg2]

I don't know. The only bad part about this, to me, is that you'd be locked into a tree until level 70. I mean come on, how many actually viable builds are there that don't predominantly take from one tree? Restokin? Maybe some hybrid DK tanking spec?

This change will make it ten times easier for them to balance the game because they can just tweak the actual percentages you get from having a tree be your "main" tree instead of having to mess with each individual ability. They said they're not removing any abilities or any of the cool mechanics--Just the trashy "spend five points here for X% dmg increase" stuff.

The RealID thing to me is much worse news :)

[Bot]

In the end game you're still forced to 31 points in a tree. We're talking about 31/38 points being in a single tree. How many of you have 82% of your talents all in one tree (the equivalent of 58 points)? Are you surprised when someone has less?

this is based on the assumption that the new trees will function like the old ones. the reason we currently split up amongst the other trees is because we can and its better right now. but once its simplified and they mess around with the talents like it seems theyre going to it will probably be the case that you want your talents primarily in one tree. take naturalist for example. its a second tier druid resto talent that reduces healing touches cast time by 0.5 sec and increases physical damage by 10% at 5 points. if they move that bonus into the feral tree where it belongs and leave the resto part of it in the resto tree then i wont be tempted to venture into the resto tree to get it like i am now.

[Owltoid]

Druids are a good example. Most moonkins spec into resto with their remaining points so they can get master shapeshifter. It's the better DPS choice. However, I prefer going for feral swiftness for increased movement while stealthed. While it sucks that I have 5 wasted points in feral that are totally useless to a moonkin, at least I can get the ability I'd rather have. It makes the game more fun, and makes the toon feel more like I customized him.

All I can do is repeat that I understand why Blizz is doing this. I'm a bit surprised that so many people are happy about having options taken away. Then again, maybe you guys are more optimistic and believe there will be lots of variety inside one talent tree that allows for as much customization as the old method of using multiple talent trees.

I just love the line they used...
"The idea isn’t to give players fewer choices, but to make those choices feel more meaningful"

I've never felt so good about having things taken away...

[Starbuck_Jones]

I change my talent spec depending on what im doing. My raiding spec is one way. My new Heroic raiding spec is slightly different, and my heroic 5 man rape the dungeon build is totally different as well. I do not like the idea of removing options and forceing a minimum in one tree before you can put points into another.

I also see that this will force people into one tree for levels 1-85. Take a paladin, Everyone is going to go ret to level and quest. No one is going to level as prot or holy. This means max level toons who have no idea how to play their class. You think the current wait for 10-20min to LFD as a dps is bad now. Its going to get worse. Now I cant even take a point to help tank if I wanted to. Im stuck as a pure dps class unless I go to town and drop gold to respec.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

you guys act like you just know you wont like the new way at all. what if turns out its sweet and totally playable. what if it turns out that you CAN find a new spec that fits you well. i have to channel svper and say i dont much like this sky is falling stuff. you havent even seen the new stuff yet. just relax. :cool:

Sometimes, just sometimes, we make arguments like "that's retarded" more as a literary device to express a particularly concerning angle or more than might be obvious in written text, rather than as online confirmation that we're actually smashing mirrors in our Mom's basement and selling our WoW-themed big wheel and action figure sets in a fit of pique.

[daviddoran]

This is great news. Talent trees have gotten way too big, and so many talents were just filler. It seems they have pruned every worthless talent, and rather than give us an overabundance of talent points, they just scale them down. It's the same stuff as before, but less diluted. This also lets them have more control over hybrid specs that they do not want (i.e. elemental shamans dual wielding, and getting a lot of extra spellpower from flametongue and weapon enchant.) Great news IMO.

[Solon]

My accounts have been cancelled. I'll fiddle a bit until they run out, then I'll just be watching you guys until it's safe to play again. :) This big of a change will probably mean a ton of patch, FoTM, patch, FoTM cycles. Thanks for the info, and all your opinions. See ya!

[Slats]

I love these changes.

You think you have choice now but you dont. Whats a ret paladin without divine storm and crusader strike? What makes an ele shaman all that different from resto other than a slight change in cast time and thunderstorm / earth shield?

To be Prot - truely be a prot pally you need to go all the way up and get holy shield and hammer of the righteous. Now you can feel like the class you are at level 10 and not at level SEVENTY or SIXTY.

This means they can REALLY balance a specialization and not balance TALENTS. Its their game design, they WANT disc priests using penance as part of their playstyle. They expect enhance to Dual Wield etc.

You see so many shit players who have no fucking clue what they are doing with their talents. I bet 80% of players goto Elitist Jerks and use the first talent build for raiding they can find. I would rather have a more empowered lower common player who is given more hints and clues on what Blizzard envisioned the playstyle of that class to be than some hunter running around wearing spell power gear or thinking he is a melee character.

I am very very keen on these changes and the reduction in boring talents. WHy do I want to spend 5 levels getting 5% to hit at level 35 or something. These changes plus quest changes will probably see me rolling new teams again and enjoying the game afresh.

[Owltoid]

I guess I just don't give a sh*t about leveling. It's a means to an end. I hope they didn't screw up endgame just to make leveling less painful.

[Bot]

Sometimes, just sometimes, we make arguments like "that's retarded" more as a literary device to express a particularly concerning angle or more than might be obvious in written text, rather than as online confirmation that we're actually smashing mirrors in our Mom's basement and selling our WoW-themed big wheel and action figure sets in a fit of pique.

haha i know most of yall arent truly spazzing out i just hate to see all the negativity when we all know its gonna be ok in the end :)

[Elektroz]

The talent changes plus mastery system will give us more choice than before and make the game way more balanced. Instead of having to adjust specific talents and stuff, they can just increase the benefit you get from mastery. I think it'll be awesome in the end.

For all of you who are worried about losing options and customization, you aren't losing anything except those mandatory +hit, +haste, +crit, +range, -cast time talents. If you look at even the most extraneous talent specs that you come up with for raids or 5 man etc, you're still taking many of the same talents. Even a restokin and a resto druid are taking some of the same "mandatory" talents. And it's not like they're just taking those talents and keeping the extras the same anyway. I'm sure we'll say bye to many talents and abilities we have now, and welcome with open arms new talents with new abilities more suited for that specific tree.

It reminds me of that show Hoarders. You probably only use a few objects on your desk, but you like to keep a bunch of random things because one day you might need them. It's just an illusion, you don't have more choice simply because you have more options. You just feel less anxious when you don't feel as confined. Like when you keep all your receipts because one day in the future, you think that you will be arrested and questioned for murder, and you then can say, "wait, I purchased a 50c donut at dunkin donuts on July 14th, 1993 at 8:42 a.m., therefore I could not have murdered this man."

[Souca]

haha i know most of yall arent truly spazzing out i just hate to see all the negativity when we all know its gonna be ok in the end :)

But we don't. We hope it will be okay in the end, but that could just be wishful thinking. I don't think the sky is falling, but to turn around and say that everything will be great without fail is just as naive. It remains to be seen if the game will be better or worse. Chances are that even when the game is released people will disagree if it is good or bad. Either opinion is valid.

- Souca -

[Mokoi]

Naysayers need to chill out or go vent on wow.com's forums.

Opinions are unsubstantiated by ANYONE at this point and should not be taken as gospel.

I don't know many people who don't follow a cookie-cutter build for at LEAST 80% of their talents... that's what this is aimed to remove, by just giving you the mastery bonuses of those talents and letting you choose the coolest ones you want for your talent spec.

What it also means, is that the final 31pt talents will be good, and I would imagine necessary for your spec. No, you cant spec into blood / unholy as a DK anymore, or resto / Boomkin anymore, but they are addressing the issues, and you need to stfu until they are released and there's more info out there.

If you want to nerd rage and quit the game NOW, at the first sight of these new changes, after however many countless hours invested, then you need to just go rant in the wow forums where you MAY even get a response from a blue and leave your negativity to them.

I come here to hear constructive debates of news and events, not to hear your silly undeserved opinions run rampant.

[Iru]

sometimes, just sometimes, we make arguments like "that's retarded" more as a literary device to express a particularly concerning angle or more than might be obvious in written text, rather than as online confirmation that we're actually smashing mirrors in our mom's basement and selling our wow-themed big wheel and action figure sets in a fit of pique.

win

[MiRai]

Naysayers need to chill out or go vent on wow.com's forums.

Opinions are unsubstantiated by ANYONE at this point and should not be taken as gospel.

I don't know many people who don't follow a cookie-cutter build for at LEAST 80% of their talents... that's what this is aimed to remove, by just giving you the mastery bonuses of those talents and letting you choose the coolest ones you want for your talent spec.

What it also means, is that the final 31pt talents will be good, and I would imagine necessary for your spec. No, you cant spec into blood / unholy as a DK anymore, or resto / Boomkin anymore, but they are addressing the issues, and you need to stfu until they are released and there's more info out there.

If you want to nerd rage and quit the game NOW, at the first sight of these new changes, after however many countless hours invested, then you need to just go rant in the wow forums where you MAY even get a response from a blue and leave your negativity to them.

I come here to hear constructive debates of news and events, not to hear your silly undeserved opinions run rampant.
I <3 U McWrathy :)

[Souca]

Naysayers need to chill out or go vent on wow.com's forums.

Opinions are unsubstantiated by ANYONE at this point and should not be taken as gospel.

I don't know many people who don't follow a cookie-cutter build for at LEAST 80% of their talents... that's what this is aimed to remove, by just giving you the mastery bonuses of those talents and letting you choose the coolest ones you want for your talent spec.

What it also means, is that the final 31pt talents will be good, and I would imagine necessary for your spec. No, you cant spec into blood / unholy as a DK anymore, or resto / Boomkin anymore, but they are addressing the issues, and you need to stfu until they are released and there's more info out there.

If you want to nerd rage and quit the game NOW, at the first sight of these new changes, after however many countless hours invested, then you need to just go rant in the wow forums where you MAY even get a response from a blue and leave your negativity to them.

I come here to hear constructive debates of news and events, not to hear your silly undeserved opinions run rampant.

WTF?

There are plenty of decaffeinated brands on the market that taste just as good.

- Souca -

[Khatovar]

See, I keep trying to get riled up about this. I think point locking sucks because I always hopped trees to get something. Like my Tankadin popping into ret for Deflection, Imp Judgements and Benediction. But I keep coming back to "Well, I don't know how things are going to look. Maybe I won't NEED to spend talents on stuff like that anymore." That's what it looks like they're trying to do.

So I guess I'm gonna go on with my wait and see attitude, because nothing's final until 6 months AFTER expansions come out. Besides, it's not like I have to wait for anything cool. All the toons I could ever want to play are sitting at 80, so I have no desire or need to level again. I'll only be pointlocked for about 30 seconds.

[Ualaa]

I'm hoping we'll still be able to go the equivalent of 51pt + 21pt talents, in the same build.

It is cookie cutter, in that everyone will eventually have at least 31 points in their primary specialization, and 10 more points (or whatever) elsewhere. So you won't see super hybrid builds like 20/20/21 or whatever... but with fewer filler talents and core abilities at 10th and beyond, this could be a very nice change.

The jury is out, but we shall see soon enough.

[Fiddlesticks]

Naysayers need to chill out or go vent on wow.com's forums.

Opinions are unsubstantiated by ANYONE at this point and should not be taken as gospel.

I don't know many people who don't follow a cookie-cutter build for at LEAST 80% of their talents... that's what this is aimed to remove, by just giving you the mastery bonuses of those talents and letting you choose the coolest ones you want for your talent spec.

What it also means, is that the final 31pt talents will be good, and I would imagine necessary for your spec. No, you cant spec into blood / unholy as a DK anymore, or resto / Boomkin anymore, but they are addressing the issues, and you need to stfu until they are released and there's more info out there.

If you want to nerd rage and quit the game NOW, at the first sight of these new changes, after however many countless hours invested, then you need to just go rant in the wow forums where you MAY even get a response from a blue and leave your negativity to them.

I come here to hear constructive debates of news and events, not to hear your silly undeserved opinions run rampant.

Wow.. you're really on a roll these past couple nights. Notice.. I quoted your post this time so you can't edit it to save face.

You complain about nerd raging and this post reeks of it.


Opinions are unsubstantiated by ANYONE at this point and should not be taken as gospel.

What it also means, is that the final 31pt talents will be good, and I would imagine necessary for your spec.

So.. to prove opinions are unsubstantiated.. you include your own opinion. A+ in Hypocrisy, or hell even A+ in proving a point(LOLIDOUBTIT)


I come here to hear constructive debates of news and events, not to hear your silly undeserved opinions run rampant

No one made you come into this thread. There is obviously more interest in this topic than just what you want to see.. I mean.. 7 pages.. wow. But lets just change the forum to Mokoi-boxing.com so we can all cater to what you want to read.

Mokoi-Approved General Forums
etc.

I don't know what the hell your problem is, or why you think you're all high and god damn mighty.. but don't sit back and point the finger at everyone else.. crying "NERD RAGE THIS" "EMO THAT" when you're just as guilty. Grow the hell up.

Your entire rant last night was about people who made a mistake and made other guildmates feel unwelcome.. so now you go off on all the forum posters in this thread.. wafflewafflewafflewaffle

edit: PS Nice touch on including your silly undeserved opinion.. by calling others opinions silly and undeserving. Nice touch!

[Svpernova09]

People need to chill out.

It's a BETA

Do you realize how much stuff changed during wrath beta? A metric shit ton. So if you're NOT in the BETA, chill out and lets wait and see what comes. AFAIK, they've never done such a massive talent direction change on a dime like this. This seems pretty crazy to do IMO, but they must have a good idea of what their doing.

If you want to nerdrage about it, join the massive posts on WoW Forums.

[Seldum]

I like the new changes to the talent trees. There where way to many booring and shitty talents you just had to pick to get a to one of the juicy talents.

Now they just need to overhaul the stat stuff to make this a bit more simple aswell.

I hate the fact that you have to search the web to find out you need to be crit immune witha 263 def whatever point before you are a viable tank... stuff like that suck. It's not intuitive to players like me.

You have all these stats avaliable as one class and some suck and some are good. Like if you play a druid cat. Should you go for crit or should you go for agility? or boomkins, speel power or crit?

The answers to the most beneficial stats are on different website or you can test it out yourself in game....

I guess its to add "debt" to the game, that they add all these stats for the different classes... oh well.

[Fat Tire]

I like the new changes to the talent trees. There where way to many booring and shitty talents you just had to pick to get a to one of the juicy talents.




For sure, having to spend 5 points just to get mana tide totem was just insane. Talents were just going to get bigger and bigger and hybrid specs were going to get very powerful.

I think this is a really good thing for boxers, will have to wait until its implemented but imo its a good thing.

For me personally if this gets rid of unnecessary but sometimes necessary key binds I will be very happy. I know its kinda dumbing down the game a bit but when you get to your 30s you will understand thats not entirely a bad thing. lol

[Littleburst]

Wow.. you're really on a roll these past couple nights. Notice.. I quoted your post this time so you can't edit it to save face.

You complain about nerd raging and this post reeks of it.




So.. to prove opinions are unsubstantiated.. you include your own opinion. A+ in Hypocrisy, or hell even A+ in proving a point(LOLIDOUBTIT)



No one made you come into this thread. There is obviously more interest in this topic than just what you want to see.. I mean.. 7 pages.. wow. But lets just change the forum to Mokoi-boxing.com so we can all cater to what you want to read.

Mokoi-Approved General Forums
etc.

I don't know what the hell your problem is, or why you think you're all high and god damn mighty.. but don't sit back and point the finger at everyone else.. crying "NERD RAGE THIS" "EMO THAT" when you're just as guilty. Grow the hell up.

Your entire rant last night was about people who made a mistake and made other guildmates feel unwelcome.. so now you go off on all the forum posters in this thread.. wafflewafflewafflewaffle

edit: PS Nice touch on including your silly undeserved opinion.. by calling others opinions silly and undeserving. Nice touch!

His point is still valid and you're vastly overreacting imo. We got a 7 pages long post going on about a change, on which hardly any information has be released and there's allready an abundance of people thinking about quiting over the change. Even though there's no possibility you have any idea how the change will effect the game.

there's this slightly minor chance that it's actually a positive thing. But we don't expect that i guess.

Aparantly a lot of people didn't read the blue post before they responded, which doesn't help a lot.

[Owltoid]

Lol, I see more nerdrage coming from those who are complaining about those who don't like the change. Then again, I'm biased.

I never understood the viewpoint of not being negative on a proposed idea until you see how it pans out. What is a discussion forum for in the first place if you don't sometime have opposing viewpoints?

I mentioned over and over again that I agree with Blizzards changes as it will likely appeal to the masses. I'm not ready to jump off a building or anything, but if it does truly become cookie cutter then I can see myself moving on from the game. I guess that's nerdrage at its finest!

[Toned]

I don't understand your guys logic at all. How is this not cookie cutter?! You are forced to be in only one tree for the vast majority of your points! There are no more hybrid specs, or playing around.

Yes, there will always only be one optimal tree for any particular situation. Theory crafting often provides that and it will for the new system. However, by forcing you into one tree, and in fact never allowing more than two trees), they are much more cookie cutter than ever before.

Who knows, maybe when the trees are released things will look much different and there will be so much variation within a tree that it's not cookie cutter, but the fact that you have to get the 31 point talent tells me otherwise. No more moonkin/healer combos since you can no longer forgo starfall to get some nice resto abilities. No more holy/disc priest combo since you're forced into penance (obviously I don't know if any of this is true, but we're all speculating with the info we have).

The trees will have all the bullshit filler talents taken out. You will gain most of them through the "passive" abilities that going into a tree gives you. This means now you actually have CHOICES for where you spend your "precious" talent points being as the # of talent points is being reduced they matter more. Without having the fillter talents waisting your points you are actually making decisions as to what YOU want to do. The shaman ELE tree is one of those that has so many mandatory talents... Look at Subtle for rogues all the cool shit you can't get because there are so many mandatory 5 talent point talents deep in the tree. I see this as a very very good change in terms of game play/mechanics/ balancing.

The best thing that they are doing is the iconic abilities at level 10. Instead of being a generic unspecialized pile of shit till like lvl 60-70 when you start actually getting enough tree abilities to have an idea of what that class does. Leveling ret from 1-60 any one? Or Enhance pre-dual wielding ><

[Owltoid]

I'd agree with you if they didn't force you to go all the way in one tree before opening up another. No longer can you have a two mid-tier build. Those are the ones I had lots of fun with (resto kins and holy'disc priest).

The sky is falling!!!

[Fiddlesticks]

His point is still valid and you're vastly overreacting imo. We got a 7 pages long post going on about a change, on which hardly any information has be released and there's allready an abundance of people thinking about quiting over the change. Even though there's no possibility you have any idea how the change will effect the game.

there's this slightly minor chance that it's actually a positive thing. But we don't expect that i guess.

Aparantly a lot of people didn't read the blue post before they responded, which doesn't help a lot.

But how is any of that new? There is this massive crowd.. that overreacts when new things change.. and then when the dust settles.. hardly anyone quits.. and they just move on to the next topic.

It's completely unnecessary to come in and start bashing on people.. in a completely hypocritical sense.. and expect everyone to chill out. Just because people are nervous about the changes doesn't make it ok to come into the thread.. that people are obviously interested in.. and tell them they are all crybabies. It's rude.. slightly idiotic.. and to complain that he comes here for X but contributes a load of bullshit QQ to a thread where he complains about QQ.. is beyond the point of return.

His big issue is not wanting to read nerdrage, and that's all he's contributed to the forums the past 2 nights.

[Noids]

Would be interesting to see if they can accomplish a compromise between the two systems as currently, there are pros and cons to both.

It may be that people who want to subscribe to the new system can choose their specialisation and get all of the goodies from lvl10 onwards in exchange for being locked in their chosen path until lvl70. For those who prefer their hybrid builds however, they can stick with the exisitng system of slowly accumulating abilities along the way but switching trees at will.

For levelling, the advantage of hybrid builds has usually been to tap into high value solo talents that are lower tier so can be picked up earlier. If you effectively get all the high value stuff straight up by specialising, there is not so much value in this, so I can't see this change being a big loss for levelling builds.

For end game, 90% of the builds will be cookie cutter (just had to slip that term in there once more for this thread ;)) so hopefully the changes will bring a bit more spice to what a cookie cutter build exactly is. For the few who like to choose to put talent points wherever they choose (personally I love the blood/frost DK who brings 20% haste AND 10% atk pwr to my ret team) there should be an option that allows them to sacrifice the upfront bonuses that the new specialisation system gives.

My own unsubstantiated opinion on the matter (is that not what forums are for?) is that with the removal of filler talents that provide bonus dmg, haste, bfufs etc. Hybrid builds will simply not be viable any more regardless, which may make the above solution redundant. Either way, although I have not always agreed with some of the changes that have been made in this game (I cried irl when original spirit bond for hunters got nerfed) once I have gotten over the initial discomfort associated with change, I have gone on to adapt to the new style of play and probably enjoyed it even more. I think it is this continuing evolution of the game that has kept me and most of us playing intensively for the last 5 odd years.

[alcattle]

They said they are attempting to simplify the game. 14 or so of the different item variances on gear, down to 6-8 so 31 point trees make sense. all the good stuff you want are built in and you end up with the real talents making a difference. Great idea, I am thinking the developers came up with it and not the money men at Blizzavision.

[RestrainT]

Themuffinman can you give me a link to were you made that signatur? :D

Looks awsome, I want one too.

[Vecter]

People need to chill out.

It's a BETA

Do you realize how much stuff changed during wrath beta? A metric shit ton. So if you're NOT in the BETA, chill out and lets wait and see what comes. AFAIK, they've never done such a massive talent direction change on a dime like this. This seems pretty crazy to do IMO, but they must have a good idea of what their doing.

If you want to nerdrage about it, join the massive posts on WoW Forums.

Not only that but GC stated that it is pretty much done in a playable and solid state for the next beta build which is pretty remarkable. They must have had this change in mind for awhile to pull this off. I am thinking they realized that the trees were getting pretty complicated to code for and balance and the time to do that was taking away from other areas. This will give them a bit more control for the foreseeable future not having to deal with such large trees. In its current form there are many talents I dont use or ones I only use because I need something lower on the tree. I like the idea of choosing talents I want to use that actually have an impact on my gameplay and not feel as though I am losing out on DPS or Healing. Of course this doesn't imply if it will be successful or not. Looking forward to see what they all look like.

[Tehmuffinman]

Themuffinman can you give me a link to were you made that signatur? :D

Looks awsome, I want one too.

I made it myself using GIMP (with some advice from Poyzon).

I basically made my own adnimated GIF with GIMP and compiling all of my generated signatures from http://www.best-signatures.com/

[Littleburst]

But how is any of that new? There is this massive crowd.. that overreacts when new things change.. and then when the dust settles.. hardly anyone quits.. and they just move on to the next topic.

It's completely unnecessary to come in and start bashing on people.. in a completely hypocritical sense.. and expect everyone to chill out. Just because people are nervous about the changes doesn't make it ok to come into the thread.. that people are obviously interested in.. and tell them they are all crybabies. It's rude.. slightly idiotic.. and to complain that he comes here for X but contributes a load of bullshit QQ to a thread where he complains about QQ.. is beyond the point of return.

His big issue is not wanting to read nerdrage, and that's all he's contributed to the forums the past 2 nights.

Then i guess we disagree :)

Asking people to think and then post doesn't seem to much to ask imo.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

Asking people to think and then post doesn't seem to much to ask imo.

You know the old saying: those who do not understand history are doomed to repeat it. ;)

[Firstcow]

Weird that all these talent announcements left me completely neutral. I'm neither for nor against them revamping the talents. Regardless what they do I think we will still find comps that work both in pvp and pve. Worst case, we go back to single toon.

But RealID really pissed me off and made me cancel :mad:

[Tonuss]

LIKE: Simplified, focused talent trees.

DISLIKE: Being forced to spend 31 points in one tree

I understand why they're doing it and I think it'll work. I just feel that instead of moving away from cookie cutter specs, Blizzard has effectively locked us into them. They could just as easily have you select a talent tree and get the abilities from a trainer and do away with the spending of talents. Maybe I'm wrong, and I do think that with the more focused trees we might get a much better experience. I'll miss the chance to spec like a crazy man while leveling up, though. -p

[Maxion]

This thread got too long too fast for me to have time to read through all of it, but it seemed there was a misunderstanding going around about not being about to put points in more than two trees, while one of blizzards own examples listed a 5/5/31 spec.

Sorry if this was already covered.

[Tehmuffinman]

This thread got too long too fast for me to have time to read through all of it, but it seemed there was a misunderstanding going around about not being about to put points in more than two trees, while one of blizzards own examples listed a 5/5/31 spec.

Sorry if this was already covered.

Its not that you cant put points in 2 trees, its that you can't put points into a 2nd tree until you have put 31 points in your main tree FIRST.

[Owltoid]

I didn't know about being able to put it into three trees (assuming 31 points). I guess I misread. I thought you unlocked another tree once the first had 31 points, and couldn't unlock a third tree until that one also had 31 points (which is obviously impossible at level 85).

To be clear, some of us are unhappy that you have to put 31 points into a tree before moving to another tree. Some of us would like to not be forced to have 31 points in any particular tree, and instead go for mid-tier talents in both trees (such as a 20/21/0 build).

[MiRai]

To be clear, some of us are unhappy that you have to put 31 points into a tree before moving to another tree. Some of us would like to not be forced to have 31 points in any particular tree, and instead go for mid-tier talents in both trees (such as a 20/21/0 build).
You're still in the 51 point talent mindset. None of us have any idea if being locked into a tree for so long is going to be a bad thing. We can only assume with smaller trees that there will be more powerful and useful talents to pick from. Blizzard doesn't want you to have all the goods from each tree. If you're Elemental, you're now Elemental. If you're Arms, you're now Arms.

But Fenril, isn't it sad that specs like "Restokin" are going to be a thing of the past?
No, not really...

Fenril, are you going to quit over these beta talent tree changes?
No, you and I will all still be playing when Cataclysm hits and blowing shit up like usual.


In fact, everyone should bookmark this thread so we can all look back when Cataclysm hits and say "Boy, was I retarded and worried about nothing."

[thefunk]

I love how 9 pages later, everyone is clear about their opinions.

After all, opinions are like arseholes, everyone's got one.

Personally I'm going to cancel all my accounts this month - not because they've changed the matrix, or because some change to a spell/talent means retuning the rotation. After all, we are boxers and therefore are immune to the "they've nerfed my class" type thing.

I'm cancelling my accounts because I've got no more time left in the day to play... yeah it's a sad day...

[Owltoid]

I love that you're able to assume things, but I'm not, Fenril :D

[MiRai]

I love that you're able to assume things, but I'm not, Fenril :D
Where did I say that? You can assume all you want...

You're ranting and raving and hating on something you have never even seen. I've got an open mind about what is going to happen. There is a difference. You can fill this thread with tears or you can just hang out, and see what Cataclysm brings.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

You're still in the 51 point talent mindset. None of us have any idea if being locked into a tree for so long is going to be a bad thing. We can only assume with smaller trees that there will be more powerful and useful talents to pick from. Blizzard doesn't want you to have all the goods from each tree. If you're Elemental, you're now Elemental. If you're Arms, you're now Arms.

But Fenril, isn't it sad that specs like "Restokin" are going to be a thing of the past?
No, not really...

Fenril, are you going to quit over these beta talent tree changes?
No, you and I will all still be playing when Cataclysm hits and blowing shit up like usual.


In fact, everyone should bookmark this thread so we can all look back when Cataclysm hits and say "Boy, was I retarded and worried about nothing."

Sup, brah. Nice high horse you gots there. Was it a RAF reward?

[MiRai]

Sup, brah. Nice high horse you gots there. Was it a RAF reward?
One of a kind.

[Powerwar]

Not a big deal. Until the expansion comes out any speculation about talents is just that... a speculation.

I guess they are trying to make the game fun to play at lower levels where it lacks severely at the moment and new people just don't continue after lvl 10 and go to other MMOs.

[Bot]

I never understood the viewpoint of not being negative on a proposed idea until you see how it pans out. What is a discussion forum for in the first place if you don't sometime have opposing viewpoints?


i hope you see the contradiction in that :)

im not saying you cant have youre viewpoint. but what kinda discussion would it be if all viewpoints were negative? about the same kind as if they were all positive. theres not much of a way to have one thread showcasing both opinions without each side feeling like arguing their point.

personally im neither for nor against the talent change. my previous posts may have given the impression that i like it but in reality ive never payed much attention to my talents. if i didnt have a talent tree and was just given spells based on a one tier specialization option id be stoked. so go figure. i just have a fondness for playing devils advocate :)

[moosejaw]

I do plan on leveling up some goblins or emo-wolves when the expac hits. I want to know if dual talent is going to moved to a different level or if they will modify it.

For a bigger picture on this whole thing..... Ever since Greg Street moved into his current position, he has been saying he wanted to simplify things. This is just another step in that evolution of simplification. It makes it easier for them to balance the classes and design encounters around it.

I am waiting until patch 4.0 to do any complaining and then patch 4.1 will be the first big re-balance patch. I am more disappointed in the guild achievements getting canned than I am about this.

[Knytestorme]

I'll wait and see what comes from the next build before I be-moan these changes. Yes I have some concerns but I'll wait until I see the initial implementation before I get upset about them.

I do know though that I'm happy they announced the changes now as it means I am going to hold off on returning to fulltime boxing and new teams until the changes are live with patch 4.0

[Tonuss]

Sounds about right. Its a whole new game coming.
I think that this might be the smartest thing that they are doing. I don't know if it will work for me, because having a bunch of level 70s and 80s, this means that their entire play style and experience is being changed pretty dramatically.

But the game is five years old, and the old world is generally abandoned. It's just a stepping stone on your way to getting to 80 as soon as you can. That makes it more difficult for new players and people trying the game out. Rebuilding the game from the ground up makes it a new experience for veteran players, as well as making it accessible and populated for newbies. It also lets them take all of the lessons they've learned from day one and apply it without having to wait for WOW 2.

I'm a bit concerned about how this will change the gaming experience for my high-level characters, but I'm also pretty excited about leveling up new characters again.

[Multibocks]

This is a funny thread. You know this game has changed a lot in it's five years and since the beginning of boxing we've had to adapt. I haven't seen so many people upset about something they haven't even tried. Learn to adapt or quit, stop being so sensitive.

[Owltoid]

This thread is full of "I'm pessimistic about these changes, but will wait to see before cancelling." It's also apparently filled with Blizzard fanbois who don't like anything negative said.

Let's hope we can get back to discussing the games, whether stating optimistic or pessimistic viewpoints, and stop talking about if others have a right to have a viewpoint.

[Owltoid]

i hope you see the contradiction in that :)

I understand what you're getting at, but don't agree it's a contradiction. I'm fine with others having opposing viewpoints about what we're discussing. I've stated multiple times in this thread that I understand why Blizzard is doing what it's doing, but it may not be the best choice for me.

I have a problem with others attacking others because they're having a viewpoint. If this was a discussion forum about how people should discuss topics, then their posts would be spot on. However, it's a discussion about video games. If people want to be doom and gloom about things, then let them! There's been a ton of hate lately, mostly from a couple posters... not sure why, but I guess this forum is evoloving from supportive to competitive. Discuss video games, not how others should react to news.

[Fat Tire]

I never understood the viewpoint of not being negative on a proposed idea until you see how it pans out.

Real ID says Hi!


I agree with your last two posts though. I cant express an opinion about the game at all here anymore.

[Owltoid]

Real ID says Hi!

Exactly my point. People were negative on RealID before it came out even though they hadn't seen the final implementation.

Granted, Cataclysm is a bit different since with RealID people could easily guess the results, whereas Cataclysm has lots of unknowns... but guessing about those unknowns, including making statement of "if it's this way then I'll likely react that way" is part of the fun. Otherwise why bother reading the news release anyway if you're not going to have any reaction until the final details are known?

[Multibocks]

This thread is full of "I'm pessimistic about these changes, but will wait to see before cancelling." It's also apparently filled with Blizzard fanbois who don't like anything negative said.

Let's hope we can get back to discussing the games, whether stating optimistic or pessimistic viewpoints, and stop talking about if others have a right to have a viewpoint.

You use the "or I'm canceling" hyperbolic super knee-jerk reaction to a game change. Don't be surprised when someone has "an opinion" about it. It's new content and I'm willing to at least try before I start freaking out. Comparing this to RealID is not helpful. Changing a talent system has nothing to do with compromising peoples privacy.

Oh and I'm far from a fanbois, but that's just my opinion...

[Fat Tire]

Exactly my point. People were negative on RealID before it came out even though they hadn't seen the final implementation.


Well I was using that as an extreme example and sarcasm. I didnt care how Real ID was implemented, I was an am still against it, but I understand the point your trying to make.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

Otherwise why bother reading the news release anyway if you're not going to have any reaction until the final details are known?The "What if?" metagame is sometimes as much fun as the game itself, if less time-consuming. As for some of the general skepticism about a fundamental talent revamp, some of us remember what they did to hunter and shaman and paladin talents before they improved things in 3.0. It's not that much of a stretch to be nervous about their ability to pull off a fairly significant revamp of ALL of the talent trees at once, let alone a few at a time. [edit] Yes, I know we'll eventually get there. Please don't read any "OMG TALENTZ CHANG WIL KIL WOW" into this post.

[coglistings]

I prefer the sitting in a cave ideology above all else. Besides. I got toons to still lvl

[gunsun]

Talents would be reworked one way or another. Especially with new spells being added through 81-85. And Blizzard has to address the issue of some classes unlocking overpowered hybrid specs if they just give people x more points to spend.

So, really, if it wasn't this tactic to balance things they would just move the more powerful midtree talents up the tree to force you to pick only one powerful talent to unlock. Either way the trees change and your locked into a primary tree.

Either solution, and I'm sure there are others, give you the illusion of choice just like we have the illusion of choice now. The most important choice is the tree you pick as primary, after that you don't get to make many more meaningful choices.

I'm talking game-play-changing choices, 20% more damage/healing output type choices. My elemental shaman lava burst is a world apart from my resto shaman lava burst, that's a product of the tree choice and you need the upper tier talents to pull it off, so the hybrid specs, and I've tried dozens, don't get the job done. For me, experimenting with hyrbid specs that were broken just opened my eyes to how little choices I currently have.

I've given up trying to find new talent combinations on my alts. I do my homework, look at the spreadsheets and the optimal builds, and cut and paste. It is far simpler than wasting tons of gold respecting and tons of time at target dummies watching my "awesome" new idea crash and burn.

I've probably wasted 3 weeks of game play thinking something like, "this would never work on just one toon but what if I had 5 doing it at the same time, shouldn't that make the hybrid spec over powered?" And the answer: "nope."

I'm assuming the the expansion will be more of the same. Blizzard designs elemental shaman to be only so productive, and you have to unlock the best talents to meet those design goals. When people find a loophole Blizzard patches it up.

End of the day, I want to see the new system first.

I'm guessing it will be functionally equivalent to what we have now, but who knows, maybe there will be 2-3 xx/0/0 specs. The dps and tank toons can choose to be aoe or single targets depending on cc design choices. You could only unlock one area within the tree, not two, based on linked talents and no longer need a secondary tree with 10 filler points to unlock that one useful 11 point ability.

That would be really interesting, 2 meaningful tank builds in one tree . . . but I doubt they want to deal with that degree of customization.

[HPAVC]

I find this too much change at one time for blizzard to deal with in a quality way. I suspect feature creep, especially with a track record of poor beta testing on mechanics versus 'ohh shiny, lets play with toys'. If they implemented these changes outside an xpac, (where oooh shiny death knights, goblins, etc removed) and you knew people were leveling and so forth. I would have more faith.

I also hate how they announce they crap, it makes people freak out, drama everywhere, stop playing and qq like little bitches for months. The 'that epic will be worthless compared to greens in the xpac' is already here.

I think that they could be better served by presenting an array of possible talent mechanisms publicly and testing them varied degree. But making ground breaking announcements that shatter the /played of so many lifeless people (myself included) always seems to make the :eek: face occur.

I actually sense that the current tree's compared to each other don't stand up with the number of talent points allocatable. So a prot paladin might make good use of extra points as candy. Where to a warrior or rogue might be huge since they can unlock some major pieces. In the end if i want to have a Power Infusion / Misery priest build, why the fuck not?

For some classes this seems pretty bizarre, how are the tree's really that big of a difference to a hunter, rogue or a warlock. Sure at some point you unlock a new spell and that is your signature thing perhaps, but play style ... not really. Not like the three shaman / druid trees.

[Souca]

Not like the three shaman / druid trees.

Correction, four druid trees. Be curious to see how they sort out Feral. They've already admitted it will be tricky.

- Souca -