DK/Ret Cataclysm PVP Talent Discussion

[Shodokan]

What are you guys thinking? It seems really hard to be purely utility now... But this is what i've come up with.

Death Knight
http://www.wowtal.com/#k=3Ej7Q7G8xKAYUy.9gq.deathknight
Pros
Bone armor (defensive cooldown)
On A Pale Horse (anti-stun/fear reduction)
Abom Might
Rune Tap
Anti-Magic Zone
Desecration
Scourge Strike
14% extra damage done by holy damage from ebon plaguebringer
Pet Stun

Cons
No lichborne
no hungering cold
no chibilians
less reach on chains of ice.


Paladin
Paladin 1: http://www.wowtal.com/#k=doG5ksk5tU3Gx1.9gq.paladin
Paladin 2: http://www.wowtal.com/#k=dq-UiXx1ISC8.9gq.paladin
Paladin 3 & 4: http://www.wowtal.com/#k=dqez26MumAFwkE.9gq.paladin

12% more healing is A LOT, it also gives 12% more damage for holy shock

LMK what you think so far.

[remanz]

can't access the link somehow.

I assume you don't have 20% haste buff anymore (or does dk still have it for cata). As for paladins, I heard DS getting nerfed, and give an interrupt to compensate. (BE din doesn't want it lol).

I like the DK side of things. What I don't like, is that all the defensive abilities will get pull to blood talent tree. So we probably don't have this hybrid spec where the DK buff a lot and still be able to tank (soak) damage.

[Shodokan]

can't access the link somehow.

I assume you don't have 20% haste buff anymore (or does dk still have it for cata). As for paladins, I heard DS getting nerfed, and give an interrupt to compensate. (BE din doesn't want it lol).

I like the DK side of things. What I don't like, is that all the defensive abilities will get pull to blood talent tree. So we probably don't have this hybrid spec where the DK buff a lot and still be able to tank (soak) damage.

The links work.

[remanz]

somehow it wasn't working when i first click on it.

It is now. anyhow, I don't think you need Epimedic for longer disease duration. Do need Death Grip reduced CD. Other stuff looks ok to me. I actually did try this similar spec blood + unholy as well as frost + unholy for DK at lvl 80. The offense is good and all. But I feel like my DK dying a lot more without Death Strike. So I keep going back to improved Death Strike

[Shodokan]

somehow it wasn't working when i first click on it.

It is now. anyhow, I don't think you need Epimedic for longer disease duration. Do need Death Grip reduced CD. Other stuff looks ok to me. I actually did try this similar spec blood + unholy as well as frost + unholy for DK at lvl 80. The offense is good and all. But I feel like my DK dying a lot more without Death Strike. So I keep going back to improved Death Strike

Well, doing so now seems impractical, the dmg from scourge strike and the 13% extra damage for your rets with their extra healing and such is a bit much.

[BrothelMeister]

Im thinking more like this for the DK:

http://www.wowtal.com/#k=xHigyuhio9VS0s5.9gq.deathknight

The damage from the DK is less important than the damage reduction from the Blood tree imo.

My pally trees will be like this: http://www.wowtal.com/#k=-xRuNML-SPVbQ.9gq.paladin

with 3 points to move around to the various team buffs each one will get individually.

[Firstcow]

For paladins I would go like this:

http://www.wowtal.com/#k=99ImroxrHCHyVP.9gq.paladin

4 points to spare distributed differently for each paladin.
One takes 20% haste.
One takes Imp blessing of might.
The other 2 take whatever.
At least one takes sanct ret.

Note I also took Seal of Command for trash fights in pve or maybe in BGs with lots of people.

[Shodokan]

For paladins I would go like this:

http://www.wowtal.com/#k=99ImroxrHCHyVP.9gq.paladin

4 points to spare distributed differently for each paladin.
One takes 20% haste.
One takes Imp blessing of might.
The other 2 take whatever.
At least one takes sanct ret.

Note I also took Seal of Command for trash fights in pve or maybe in BGs with lots of people.

I think that the extra 6% damage reduction from righteous fury is too good to pass up personally.

[remanz]

Im thinking more like this for the DK:

http://www.wowtal.com/#k=xHigyuhio9VS0s5.9gq.deathknight

The damage from the DK is less important than the damage reduction from the Blood tree imo.

My pally trees will be like this: http://www.wowtal.com/#k=-xRuNML-SPVbQ.9gq.paladin

with 3 points to move around to the various team buffs each one will get individually.

Tough call between
Improved Death Strike and Ebon Plaguebringer (13% spell damage buff)

we are now getting 20% haste from paladins, 13% spell damage is quite nice since it is for the team (the effect is multiplied by the number of paladins you have) . Improve Death Strike is only for DK alone.
Also factor in, we might use holy shock as another burst spell.

I would personally go with Ebon Plaguebringer and Scourge Strike. Drop improved death strike.

[Shodokan]

Frost DK really needs to be looked into IMO, the abilities for PVP look disgusting for 2 hand frost.

[Firstcow]

I think that the extra 6% damage reduction from righteous fury is too good to pass up personally.

Righteous fury is a magic buff which is gone if it gets dispelled and in the middle of the fight there is no time to rebuff.
The 12% increased healing to FoL and holy shock is much much better to spend talens in. That means both dps increase and healing increase.
Also remember all classes become a little sturdier in cata, even cloth classes so more dps will be key.

[BrothelMeister]

http://www.wowtal.com/#k=xH5BE-TpdFMndq.9gq.deathknight for the DK is a decent compromise. Since half of the Pallies damage is Magic, Ebon Plaque increases their damage by half of the 13% buff, which is good. However, the damage from scourge strike is probably still less beneficial than the significant increase in healing from Death strike, especially since you'll likely be using your Unholy runes on Death strikes anyway.

[Multibocks]

Righteous fury is a magic buff which is gone if it gets dispelled and in the middle of the fight there is no time to rebuff.
The 12% increased healing to FoL and holy shock is much much better to spend talens in. That means both dps increase and healing increase.
Also remember all classes become a little sturdier in cata, even cloth classes so more dps will be key.

Hmm unless it changed in Cataclysm, or I'm retarded, righteous fury is not dispellable.

[Shodokan]

Righteous fury is a magic buff which is gone if it gets dispelled and in the middle of the fight there is no time to rebuff.
The 12% increased healing to FoL and holy shock is much much better to spend talens in. That means both dps increase and healing increase.
Also remember all classes become a little sturdier in cata, even cloth classes so more dps will be key.

i believe they said that RF was not going to be dispellable in cataclysm.

[Shodokan]

Well then... with the new talents and such... which tree are people thinking of going with?

I'm thinking unholy... reaping automatically + scourge strike changed to 140% weapon damage. Utility, slow, etc.

[remanz]

So hard to let go the 10% AP buff.

I am thinking just go blood for the heck of it. Tanking spec.

It looks a little OP right now as blood tank. Really gonna take a while to kill the DK. Missing a decent AOE snare, probably have to live with Heartstrike

[ghonosyph]

Im still looking to go Frost/unholy. I've always played as frost dk on my solo dk and 3 dk team, and its just the most comfortable for me. It provides a lot of utility, and lots of free interrupt, farther range on icy touch and howling blast to slow people down. Chillblanes is incredible in bgs, with howling blast glyph giving frost fever to everyone who gets hit by it means several people getting slowed down all at once to get caught up in your shit storm :D I do think that a Blood/frost spec might work well tho, its really hard to say till the trees get a little more refined :)

[Shodokan]

Blood looks like it could be hard to kill. Unholy and frost will both do tons of damage though.

[remanz]

Unholy is another option.

10% AP for 5 ppl vs single damage boost from DK. The AP buff certainly wins. But you add the spell damage buff (8% now? wtf) + AOE snare + death grip CD reduction + AMZ. It might be worth it.

Frost is no go IMO.

[Shodokan]

Unholy is another option.

10% AP for 5 ppl vs single damage boost from DK. The AP buff certainly wins. But you add the spell damage buff (8% now? wtf) + AOE snare + death grip CD reduction + AMZ. It might be worth it.

Frost is no go IMO.

5 frost strikes in a row = godlike.

[ghonosyph]

with the new dispel mechanics going into play, frosts snare will be harder to remove as it will cost more mana, and can instantly be reapplied in most cases. This is gonna lead to people wasting more resources to get away vs healing

I see frost as putting a ton of pressure on your opposition, and you can still pick up a couple other key talents that might help in either blood or unholy :)

[Mokoi]

Sanctified Wrath if it stays as is is OP for paladin boxers.

Can use Hammer of wrath even if target isn't at 20% health... while fury is up...

I WIN

[Mosg2]

Agree. I was 100% sold on a mixed melee team for pvp and pve until I saw the new 31 point talent trees.

Losses:
Cleanse.
Divine Shield/Divine Sacrifice rotations.

Gains:
Insta cast mid-range heals instead of Flash of Light.
4x Hammer of Wrath every GCD while Avenging Wrath is active.

It's going to be insane. Insane I say.

[remanz]

Hmm. I missed this change.

Big buff over "50% damage ignoring damage reduction (including armor)". We will have to see if it is gonna stay or not. Hammer for every GCD sounds a bit too good.

I honestly thought the age of paladin was over lol.

[Shodokan]

Agree. I was 100% sold on a mixed melee team for pvp and pve until I saw the new 31 point talent trees.

Losses:
Cleanse.
Divine Shield/Divine Sacrifice rotations.

Gains:
Insta cast mid-range heals instead of Flash of Light.
4x Hammer of Wrath every GCD while Avenging Wrath is active.

It's going to be insane. Insane I say.

yep

[Mosg2]

Unless the talent changes significantly this is going to be like BC-era Lightning Bolt/Shock/NSEMCL pwnage. Hit your Hand of Freedom macro and then blow Avenging Wrath. Hammer until opposing side is blenderized.

[Multibocks]

Warning: Paladin Skills/Talents in current beta build These are old talents. This is not the paladin revamp that we said was coming. Sorry, you'll just have to wait a little bit longer. appears these talents will be changing a lot.

[Shodokan]

Warning: Paladin Skills/Talents in current beta build These are old talents. This is not the paladin revamp that we said was coming. Sorry, you'll just have to wait a little bit longer. appears these talents will be changing a lot.

saw that, but they stated one aspect they liked about ret is staying... and they've been very adamant about Art Of War sticking around.

[Firstcow]

Agree. I was 100% sold on a mixed melee team for pvp and pve until I saw the new 31 point talent trees.

Losses:
Cleanse.
Divine Shield/Divine Sacrifice rotations.

Gains:
Insta cast mid-range heals instead of Flash of Light.
4x Hammer of Wrath every GCD while Avenging Wrath is active.

It's going to be insane. Insane I say.

I thought Hammer of Wrath has a CD of 6 seconds? Or am I missing something?

[remanz]

you didn't miss anything i think.

Hammer for every GCD is too good to be true. 6 seconds CD is about right. so You can throw like 2-3 hammers.

Now compare that to 50% damage ignore damage reduction, it is a bit of minor upgrade I say.

[Firstcow]

you didn't miss anything i think.

Hammer for every GCD is too good to be true. 6 seconds CD is about right. so You can throw like 2-3 hammers.

Now compare that to 50% damage ignore damage reduction, it is a bit of minor upgrade I say.

What talent or mastery gives 50% dmg ignore dmg reduction? And this whole sentence makes my mind spin. Wtf is dmg ignore dmg reduction? lol

[remanz]

What talent or mastery gives 50% dmg ignore dmg reduction? And this whole sentence makes my mind spin. Wtf is dmg ignore dmg reduction? lol

The old Sanctified Wrath talent for rets

"reduces the cooldown of Avenging Wrath by 30/60 seconds and while affected by Avenging Wrath 25/50% of all damage caused bypasses damage reduction effects"

this is what it is today, right now.

when you pop wings, 50% your damage hit through a lot of stuff. PS, Shield, even Armor, Shamanistic rage. So let's say you do 1000 damage. and his shamanistic rage supposedly negates 30% of that. You should only do 700. But when you pop wings, 500 of your damage ignore this. the other 500 got minus 30%. So you do (500 + (500 x 0.7)) = 850 instead of 700.

I didn't factor in the damage increase when you pop wings, but you should get the idea.

[Firstcow]

Ah i see. I've never really paid much attention to every detail of every talent.

[remanz]

Ignore armor is kinda huge when you fight those plate or shield wielding classes. And this is how we kill those pain suppression targets, or even shield wall warriors.


The new hammer throwing is pretty nice for getting kited.

[Firstcow]

They should just make hammer of wrath usable all the time and keep the 6 sec CD. What's wrong with having a ranged attack every 6 seconds when we dont' have cleanse to remove immobilization effects?

[Shodokan]

Paladins now have no more instant heal... the fuck? Unless they took it away from art of war in order to make us choose to heal with the holy power heal idea. (instant off gcd heal)
We now have an interrupt (finally)
Healing hands was nerfed and had it's cooldown increased
Divine storm got a HUGE nerfbat (20% damage)
We can now chain cast crusader strike... and it now does like 170% weapon damage.
Exorcism every 9 seconds instead of 15 and has it's damage increased a shitton
Judgment no longer gives 25% base mana instantly, but 40% over 10 seconds
Templar's verdict is ridiculous damage
31 point talent is fucking USELESS.

[ghonosyph]

Yep, except that the 31 point talent is a giant burst cooldown which will allow us once we hit 3 holy power to spam the shit out of ds lol incoming deepz boost

[Mosg2]

Wow, they really did remove insta-cast heals from Art of War. This could be a game changer for that team.

[ghonosyph]

I haven't had a chance to test this latest build on beta yet cuz my downloader is taking forever but when I get home this afternoon I'll definitely play my pally a bunch and let you know what's what :) our future may not be so grimm!

[Fat Tire]

Rebuke- A interrupt that lasts 4 seconds on a 10 sec cooldown. :eek:



edit: I am sure that the 31 pt talent is just a placeholder or typo of some type. It would be unusable in arena if it stayed the same.




Also, my favorite change? "shadowflame now also fears the enemies." A instant AOE fear for destro! its a horror effect so its not on the same DR as fear. OP? probably.

[Shodokan]

Word of Glory is the new instant heal. Instant cast, off gcd, costs no mana. scales with AP or SP

[Fat Tire]

Word of Glory is the new instant heal. Instant cast, off gcd, costs no mana. scales with AP or SP

Cool.


They basically made Rets a frost DK rotation wise.



0.0 Crusader Strike
1.5 Judgement
3.0 Crusader Strike
4.5 Exorcism
6.0 Crusader Strike
7.5 Inquisition
9.0 Crusader Strike
10.5 Judgement
12.0 Crusader Strike
13.5 Exorcism
15.0 Crusader Strike
16.5 Templar's Verdict

Replace with DK frost rotation and its virtually the same.

[Shodokan]

Cool.


They basically made Rets a frost DK rotation wise.



0.0 Crusader Strike
1.5 Judgement
3.0 Crusader Strike
4.5 Exorcism
6.0 Crusader Strike
7.5 Inquisition
9.0 Crusader Strike
10.5 Judgement
12.0 Crusader Strike
13.5 Exorcism
15.0 Crusader Strike
16.5 Templar's Verdict

Replace with DK frost rotation and its virtually the same.

I guess so yes, as far as single target rotations go.

[Firstcow]

Word of Glory is the new instant heal. Instant cast, off gcd, costs no mana. scales with AP or SP

Is this usable by rets too? I thought this was holy only.

[Firstcow]

I hope paladins will have a sort of instant heal like the one from Art of War procs otherwise the DK+rets comp is dead not just in pvp, but in pve too.

[Shodokan]

Is this usable by rets too? I thought this was holy only.

It's not a talent nor a level 10 ability for holy at the moment.

[remanz]

Cool.


They basically made Rets a frost DK rotation wise.



0.0 Crusader Strike
1.5 Judgement
3.0 Crusader Strike
4.5 Exorcism
6.0 Crusader Strike
7.5 Inquisition
9.0 Crusader Strike
10.5 Judgement
12.0 Crusader Strike
13.5 Exorcism
15.0 Crusader Strike
16.5 Templar's Verdict

Replace with DK frost rotation and its virtually the same.


Not looking good. How is the HP pool vs healing going for beta.

200k HP at lvl 85 and holy light still heals for 15k on crit ?

I think the 200k HP poor alone will create problems for us as we are relying on burst down before getting CCed. In cata, they will just have a lot more time to CC my paladins. and I lost the bloody cleanse too.

[Shodokan]

Not looking good. How is the HP pool vs healing going for beta.

200k HP at lvl 85 and holy light still heals for 15k on crit ?

I think the 200k HP poor alone will create problems for us as we are relying on burst down before getting CCed. In cata, they will just have a lot more time to CC my paladins. and I lost the bloody cleanse too.

For pvp gear you can expect around 75k life.

Don't forget that resilience DOES NOT reduce critical strike chance against you anymore. So if you have 30+% chance to crit you will get it much more now.

So far i have come up with this list

Pros
-175% weapon damage attack @ 1 second cooldown
-Unlimited target divine storm @ 90% weapon damage (3 holy)
-Instant cast, not on GCD, no mana heal (costs holy power, based on AP and SP)
-More damage for seal, auto-hits multiple targets... no more choosing between command and righteousness. Also 100% chance to do 15% extra weapon damage per swing.
-Wings = gives you 4 hammer of wraths before its over no matter their HP
-New 275% weapon damage attack
-9 second exorcism which art of war should have up at all times, talented gives it a lot more damage
-KICK! Healers cannot just free-heal on us after we use our silence and ccs
-Zealotry when fixed (it is a 3 min cooldown according to a GM friend of mine, 30 is a mistype) will provide a TON of burst.
-Crusader strike gets an inherent extra 15% crit chance!
-Rumor has it that holy wrath will work on humanoids as well in cata... meaning another stun.
-Healing hands (yes it costs a lot of mana but it heals pretty well and does stack at least as of now)
-Talented word of glory gets another 12% chance to crit
-Actually can effectively get a 20 second reduction on hammer of justice
-20% melee haste for party
-We actually basically get a rotation...even for pvp!

Cons
-No more instant cast holy light from art of war
-20% base damage for divine storm so less passive healing
-Increased cooldown on healing hands to 1 minuet.
-We don't really use exorcism as it is...so why are they making it so accessable? Not like it slows or shackles or anything.
-No more instant 25% base mana from judgments while we have Judgments of the Wise
-Have to watch multiple sets of "holy power" as one of ret's new level 10 abilities gives melee attacks a chance to generate 1 holy power. (15% chance right now iirc)
-Divine guardian is out of reach of us so no more reduced damage for the party

[Firstcow]

For pvp gear you can expect around 75k life.

-Instant cast, not on GCD, no mana heal (costs holy power, based on AP and SP)



Is there a cooldown on this heal? Or it is usable any time you have at least one stack of holy power? If this is the case, then this is much much better even than art of war procs, because Crusader Strike always adds a stack of holy power, it's not a chance right?

[ghonosyph]

yes free cost instant cast heal, that heals for 1590 max minus crits

Exorcism is one of those abilities that will be used a TON now. Its ranged it hits HARD, and its usually an instant cast (it procs a ton), Mana will be a problem but if we use seal of the wise(the combo of wisdom and light) we should be okay.

After playin on the beta for about 30 minutes with one pally i see things for us being RETARDEDLY GOOD. The holy power thing is STUPID easy to track, and it is a super duper way to deal a TON of dmg, a TON of healing, or a TON of aoe. Everyone who had previously been freaking out can relax some now, because things are looking great! :) i hope they dont change shit from the way it is now because its pretty incredible :D

[Shodokan]

yes free cost instant cast heal, that heals for 1590 max minus crits

Exorcism is one of those abilities that will be used a TON now. Its ranged it hits HARD, and its usually an instant cast (it procs a ton), Mana will be a problem but if we use seal of the wise(the combo of wisdom and light) we should be okay.

After playin on the beta for about 30 minutes with one pally i see things for us being RETARDEDLY GOOD. The holy power thing is STUPID easy to track, and it is a super duper way to deal a TON of dmg, a TON of healing, or a TON of aoe. Everyone who had previously been freaking out can relax some now, because things are looking great! :) i hope they dont change shit from the way it is now because its pretty incredible :D

1590 max minus crits? Thats lower than it was when i checked it the other day. Non crit would mean we would get heals for about 7k... which is chicken shit heals for 75k life.

[ghonosyph]

thats 1475 to 1590 ish, PER holy power stack. so yea around 7k ... maybe more. Hard to say if it will be good or not, but it has no mana cost and its instant and free off the gcd. I think we'll have to see, but it is better than nothing imo

[Shodokan]

thats 1475 to 1590 ish, PER holy power stack. so yea around 7k ... maybe more. Hard to say if it will be good or not, but it has no mana cost and its instant and free off the gcd. I think we'll have to see, but it is better than nothing imo

Ooh... so 5k non crit... 10k crit... thats not bad... 1/5 of your health average

[Multibocks]

basically what flash heal would have been if they did a new rank for Cata?

[ghonosyph]

Eh from how it looks its better than flash heal, because its was a mana hog, now we hade two instant heals, this one AND holy shock, plus the other various tools at our disposal. I like what they did so far, and at this point I'm not too sure the other classes in the game are worth playing lol

[Shodokan]

Eh from how it looks its better than flash heal, because its was a mana hog, now we hade two instant heals, this one AND holy shock, plus the other various tools at our disposal. I like what they did so far, and at this point I'm not too sure the other classes in the game are worth playing lol

holy shock is holy only

[ghonosyph]

Ehh as of RIGHT now, all pallys have holy shock. This may be a big bug as with the other mastery things in beta tho :)

[Shodokan]

Ehh as of RIGHT now, all pallys have holy shock. This may be a big bug as with the other mastery things in beta tho :)

I know we have it still, but its a bug that is getting fixed. It's still trainable at 40, but SHOULD be only for holy unless they changed their mind again.

Holy shock's mana cost isn't worth the heal anyway.

My current talent builds:
http://www.wowtal.com/#k=_ZsRnz2_.9q4.paladin
http://www.wowtal.com/#k=tw8-_yeOi.9q4.deathknight

[ghonosyph]

meh you're right, tho theres a new beta build tonite and things have changed rather quickly yet again.. I see a buncha new stuff and OMG looks like fun! :D

[Shodokan]

meh you're right, tho theres a new beta build tonite and things have changed rather quickly yet again.. I see a buncha new stuff and OMG looks like fun! :D

wings + cs > templars verdict spam = LMFAO

[ghonosyph]

Lol you pop zealotry after 3 cs and then spam one and one :) the burst is good! Did you see the new dk stuff omg!

[BrothelMeister]

So yea, no more paladin heals might turn this comp into a 5 Dk team instead.

[Shodokan]

So yea, no more paladin heals might turn this comp into a 5 Dk team instead.

Are you on crack?

As it stands right now the new paladin heal heals for 10k crit untalented (approximately a holy light), with talents it is another 90% (so [(10000*1.3) * 1.6] = about 20k per toon... when healing others and about 15k when healing themself (as it is now, with no scaling of AP which it actually does)

this is OFF GCD, COSTS NO MANA.

Just because we cannot spam a heal does not make the team bad when it does so much healing. We still have healing hands as well.

Considering most of our competitive play will be in BGS this is a GOOD THING. Especially with the amount of burst we are getting. If we still had it for flash of light we'd be oom in like 3 heals.

5x dk team would still not be too great, you'd have no heals with that team anyway, because if you go blood your damage will be shit.

[Firstcow]

My only concern is they removed imp crusder strike. So does that mean Crusader Strike is now on a 4 sec CD? That goes back to having to wait 8-12 seconds for 3 stacks of holy power.

[outdrsyguy1]

just found this FYI, so yeah, building up to 3 holy power will be 9 or 12 secs.

We have been trying Crusader Strike out at both 3 seconds and 4 seconds to see what fits the best. At the moment it is 3 sec (talented) for Ret and 4 sec for Prot and Holy. It all depends on how many other things are going on that you have to juggle. Inquisition, Zealotry and Exorcism and Divine Purpose procs in addition to the basics of CS, TV and Judgement with Holy Wrath filling in any holes can add up to a lot.

While we definitely want Ret to have an actual rotation in the sense that you aren't just hitting things when they come off of cooldown, we don't want to make it more complex than the other dps specs in the game. :) [ Post edited by Ghostcrawler ]
Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer

[Firstcow]

Well, I guess it all depends how fast a paladin can be blown up when /trained by multiple enemies. If he can die in less than 9 seconds then I guess there won't be enough healing.

This is also the weakness of the enhance shaman, Maelstrom Weapon needs a whooping 5 stacks until Healing Wave becomes instant. And an enhance shaman is much weaker than a paladin at survival.

Anyway, this whole "Let's design the talents and ask for feedback" approach is really starting to annoy me. It only pisses people off or makes them feel very excited only to bring the nerf bat and piss them off again.

I'm going to ignore all changes until cata releases and then I'll decide what to play.

[Shodokan]

Well, I guess it all depends how fast a paladin can be blown up when /trained by multiple enemies. If he can die in less than 9 seconds then I guess there won't be enough healing.

This is also the weakness of the enhance shaman, Maelstrom Weapon needs a whooping 5 stacks until Healing Wave becomes instant. And an enhance shaman is much weaker than a paladin at survival.

Anyway, this whole "Let's design the talents and ask for feedback" approach is really starting to annoy me. It only pisses people off or makes them feel very excited only to bring the nerf bat and piss them off again.

I'm going to ignore all changes until cata releases and then I'll decide what to play.

Shaman will always be viable, they had three moves in BC and were fine, they will continue to be fine.

[ghonosyph]

They changed word of glory again to no longer be a spammable free heal, you can't use it until you have at least 1 holy power, making this team roughly equivalent to a dk with death strike imo. It will be fun to play the pallys still but IMHO it will need to get far better or we're doa lol
The passive healing and mana generation from the seal of the wise now is very strong, proccing heals for around 1900 every couple seconds

[Firstcow]

They changed word of glory again to no longer be a spammable free heal, you can't use it until you have at least 1 holy power, making this team roughly equivalent to a dk with death strike imo. It will be fun to play the pallys still but IMHO it will need to get far better or we're doa lol
The passive healing and mana generation from the seal of the wise now is very strong, proccing heals for around 1900 every couple seconds

I didn't even expect word of glory to be spammable without at least one stack of holy power, just like you can't cast instant flash of light today without first proc-ing art of war, so if you think about it, crusader strike will guarantee a stack of holy power, you won't have to rely on crits to proc it. But if they keep Crusader Strike on a 3-4 sec CD then the viability of the group is questionable, but we still have to wait for retail until we can say for sure.

[Shodokan]

I didn't even expect word of glory to be spammable without at least one stack of holy power, just like you can't cast instant flash of light today without first proc-ing art of war, so if you think about it, crusader strike will guarantee a stack of holy power, you won't have to rely on crits to proc it. But if they keep Crusader Strike on a 3-4 sec CD then the viability of the group is questionable, but we still have to wait for retail until we can say for sure.

According to one of the game masters in my guild... most of the talent trees are pretty finalized unfortunately.

We are going to be relying on mana regen too much IMO. I mean the mana required for a 1.5 second heal is A LOT. But it will heal for a shitton if it crits... As it stands now non crit it's like 5k per toon... which is about 10k crit. So thats around 40k healing from a single heal if sacred shield is up. I think that this coupled with the power word glory heal will make this team still VIABLE for battle grounds PVP, but certainly NOT PVE.

So it will take us 4-12 seconds to get extra instant heals

Non talented
Non crit
1 holy power = 1294 to 1440
2 holy power = 2588 to 2880
3 holy power = 3882 to 4320

Talented to others
Non crit
1 holy power = 2440 to 3174
2 holy power = 4880 to 6348
3 holy power = 7320 to 9522

Crit baseline (not counting the crit, just what WILL crit)
1 holy power = 2733 to 3555
2 holy power = 5466 to 7110
3 holy power = 8199 to 10665

Crit would actually be
1 holy power = 4100 to 5332
2 holy power = 8199 to 10665
3 holy power = 12299 to 15996

Keep in mind blue post stated they plan on reducing the cooldown of crusader strike to 3 seconds. This means that every 10 seconds you get basically a full heal on any toon in your group, every 6 seconds 1/2, and every 3 seconds 1/4. With the damage output and such it shouldn't be hard. Especially in rated BGS if you have a resto healer with you.

This is all before sp or ap increases. If you ask me thats not bad... every 3 seconds you get about 1/5 of X toon's life. + healing hands + holy light after raping people.

PVP it will be very viable, but as i said before, PVE will no longer work because you have to choose between things. We also don't know anything about glyphs... there could be a glyph of art of war that makes holy light instant cast in the future we never know.

I'd also like to state... healing hands... this will heal us a total of 27k PER TOON, not taking extra healing into consideration or crit. This is every 30 seconds. If you combine this with the avenging wrath cooldown it does 20% more... so ~33k. This is BEFORE any spell power coefficients.

All information stated above does not take spell power or attack power for additional healing potential

PVP wise this team looks OP as hell.

[ghonosyph]

yea, its still workable, and spamming divine storm, while mana intensive, is highly unfavorable due to it hitting for shit amounts but the heal is manageble. If you hit enough targets with divine storm with 0 holy power you have a pretty high chance of getting 3 stacks(it procs per target hit) and the heal wont keep you up that much. the healing/mana regen seal works good for staying alive while soloing, but in pvp i doubt this team will be the powerhouse it was.

Its sad, and i honestly think either they change the word of glory to scale with attackpower via spellpower(as currently it does not) or make it spammable for the weakest amount. i haven't seen healing hands yet, as my pally isn't that high until later tonite, but i might have to say if that doesn't heal for obscene amounts when stacked then we're going to be looking at all leveling 5 priests for fun in pvp soon lol.

Don't get me wrong when i say all of the above. I HIGHLY doubt they're gonna be as good in pvp... but then again im pretty sure EVERYONE will feel the pain. I'm anxious to see some stuff pan out with the cooldown on crusader strike. i've found when playing with it, if you open with divine storm on a group you can potentially proc multiple stacks or even just one stack of holy power. Then pop a crusader strike and you're up to 2 +. Its all moot till they finish everything :D

[Shodokan]

yea, its still workable, and spamming divine storm, while mana intensive, is highly unfavorable due to it hitting for shit amounts but the heal is manageble. If you hit enough targets with divine storm with 0 holy power you have a pretty high chance of getting 3 stacks(it procs per target hit) and the heal wont keep you up that much. the healing/mana regen seal works good for staying alive while soloing, but in pvp i doubt this team will be the powerhouse it was.

Its sad, and i honestly think either they change the word of glory to scale with attackpower via spellpower(as currently it does not) or make it spammable for the weakest amount. i haven't seen healing hands yet, as my pally isn't that high until later tonite, but i might have to say if that doesn't heal for obscene amounts when stacked then we're going to be looking at all leveling 5 priests for fun in pvp soon lol.

Don't get me wrong when i say all of the above. I HIGHLY doubt they're gonna be as good in pvp... but then again im pretty sure EVERYONE will feel the pain. I'm anxious to see some stuff pan out with the cooldown on crusader strike. i've found when playing with it, if you open with divine storm on a group you can potentially proc multiple stacks or even just one stack of holy power. Then pop a crusader strike and you're up to 2 +. Its all moot till they finish everything :D

My friend and i are both 83 on beta... healing hands stacks. Last time i checked it crit as well. It's a 1 min cooldown but it heals for quite a bit.

If divine storm acts like you say it does and it is 20% wep damage attack that generates holy power... thats pretty sexy.
Viability of ALL multi-box teams are much much lower. Shaman do near no healing with chain heal now and that was the major way they healed in bgs and such.

[ghonosyph]

hmm :) quick response, what server are you on atm? Im plaing my pally palinne on lost isle, also have my druid at 82 named moocrewB

[Shodokan]

hmm :) quick response, what server are you on atm? Im plaing my pally palinne on lost isle, also have my druid at 82 named moocrewB

Gil

[remanz]

huh why are we keep focusing on paladin's healing.

dk + 4 rets
as of today, win without needing to heal much. The healing numbers might seem high in those arena reports. Those were mainly from divine storm damage and "cleaning up phase".

If you heal, unless it is a cleaning up phase, you are not going to win. DK + 4rets had no back and forth. Once you start healing, you don't come back. you are stuck at healing until you die. It was more of a "I eat your damage while dishing out much more damage" to win.

I am more interested in paladin's damage vs healer's healing. Today a holy paladin can out heal 4 dps damage for a while. After down scaling, in cata, can a single healer out heal 3 dps' damage? or 2 ? How long does it take for a couple paladins to bring down a healer if I let you free cast healing. If he goes down in like 5 seconds, then we are in good shape. If he heals until OOM, then we are doomed.

[Shodokan]

huh why are we keep focusing on paladin's healing.

dk + 4 rets
as of today, win without needing to heal much. The healing numbers might seem high in those arena reports. Those were mainly from divine storm damage and "cleaning up phase".

If you heal, unless it is a cleaning up phase, you are not going to win. DK + 4rets had no back and forth. Once you start healing, you don't come back. you are stuck at healing until you die. It was more of a "I eat your damage while dishing out much more damage" to win.

I am more interested in paladin's damage vs healer's healing. Today a holy paladin can out heal 4 dps damage for a while. After down scaling, in cata, can a single healer out heal 3 dps' damage? or 2 ? How long does it take for a couple paladins to bring down a healer if I let you free cast healing. If he goes down in like 5 seconds, then we are in good shape. If he heals until OOM, then we are doomed.

They cant free cast, we have kick.

[remanz]

I think it is the same old question. If I can effectively control 2 healers, I am on my way to 2200 in arena. In reality, I can barely control the one I am hitting on.

So letting him free cast it was more of a real world simulation. Where in actual fight, I might not have all my toons hitting on him or there might be a 2nd healer.



edit: no dispel seems like a game over

[Shodokan]

I think it is the same old question. If I can effectively control 2 healers, I am on my way to 2200 in arena. In reality, I can barely control the one I am hitting on.

So letting him free cast it was more of a real world simulation. Where in actual fight, I might not have all my toons hitting on him or there might be a 2nd healer.



edit: no dispel seems like a game over

Fear is going to not last as long in cata m8.

[Shabu42]

My friend and i are both 83 on beta... healing hands stacks. Last time i checked it crit as well. It's a 1 min cooldown but it heals for quite a bit.

If divine storm acts like you say it does and it is 20% wep damage attack that generates holy power... thats pretty sexy.
Viability of ALL multi-box teams are much much lower. Shaman do near no healing with chain heal now and that was the major way they healed in bgs and such.

I rarely use chain heal ever, LHW is way better imho

[Shodokan]

I rarely use chain heal ever, LHW is way better imho

that costs 27% of your base mana, good luck using that successfully.

[Shabu42]

Oh did they change it? Nonetheless I cant imagine chain heal is less mana. I find chain heal to be unreliable, so I just spam LHW which even with MS/Heal debuff seems to keep my alt up.

[ghonosyph]

We're not focusing so much on focused healing as much as we are the passive healing, which as I can attest to us completely lacking as compared to live.

Divine storm may not be scaling properly and with zero holy power it hits for around 380 dmg if you're lucky. Now, scale it to 3 hp and you get hits of around 1k... Which heals you for a whopping 350ish. Its almost as if it doesn't scale with our ap or spellpower conversions anymore. Also take into account that flash heal on live heals around 2to 5 k when art procs. Its a quick big heal and it procced often enough that you'd not have to worry much about it as it was a quick hit that key for random large hps, often saving a life now and then.

All that's fine and dandy imo but word of glory, while it looks good on paper, is kinda meh in game now. When we're pvp ing we're never going to want to have to burn holy power for that heal. We basically cut our dmg in half when we do, taking pressures away for 3 to 6 seconds. Whereas before the heal just cost us a global cooldown and we kept dpsing, now we have to make a huge choice as to, do I heal or keep dpsing? That's what blizzard wanted, make a choice... I think that that removal of passivity healing for us spells doom. On live divine storm hits like a truck and thus heals like ... A wax job on the truck? Lol
They still have more work to do on pallys and hopefully they put the spellpower conversion thing back in for us, otherwise our passive heals won't be enough I think. :) again, time will tell

[Shodokan]

We're not focusing so much on focused healing as much as we are the passive healing, which as I can attest to us completely lacking as compared to live.

Divine storm may not be scaling properly and with zero holy power it hits for around 380 dmg if you're lucky. Now, scale it to 3 hp and you get hits of around 1k... Which heals you for a whopping 350ish. Its almost as if it doesn't scale with our ap or spellpower conversions anymore. Also take into account that flash heal on live heals around 2to 5 k when art procs. Its a quick big heal and it procced often enough that you'd not have to worry much about it as it was a quick hit that key for random large hps, often saving a life now and then.

All that's fine and dandy imo but word of glory, while it looks good on paper, is kinda meh in game now. When we're pvp ing we're never going to want to have to burn holy power for that heal. We basically cut our dmg in half when we do, taking pressures away for 3 to 6 seconds. Whereas before the heal just cost us a global cooldown and we kept dpsing, now we have to make a huge choice as to, do I heal or keep dpsing? That's what blizzard wanted, make a choice... I think that that removal of passivity healing for us spells doom. On live divine storm hits like a truck and thus heals like ... A wax job on the truck? Lol
They still have more work to do on pallys and hopefully they put the spellpower conversion thing back in for us, otherwise our passive heals won't be enough I think. :) again, time will tell

20% weapon damage seems right for that number.

anyway...

[ghonosyph]

20% weapon dmg does sound about right but there's current no scaling on the ability. Your ap doesn't affect it at all, and neither does your spell power

This to me seems wrong.
I did notice tho that witth the holy wrath glyph you can spam it lol, sucks up your mana awful fast but it hits harder than crusader strike lol. Divine storm, oh how I miss thee most awesomeness!

[Shodokan]

20% weapon dmg does sound about right but there's current no scaling on the ability. Your ap doesn't affect it at all, and neither does your spell power

This to me seems wrong.
I did notice tho that witth the holy wrath glyph you can spam it lol, sucks up your mana awful fast but it hits harder than crusader strike lol. Divine storm, oh how I miss thee most awesomeness!

It being usable on everything is kinda funny, but only stuns demons. I guess it's the new "divine storm", but with like... no healing. Adds more to the rotation though.

[remanz]

Fear is going to not last as long in cata m8.

dispel is for snare. Fear is not a problem other than screwing up the targetting assist.

You only have 4 freedom. Mage novas 5. You will get one stuck. Mass dispel freedom, you can't even get out of hunter trap or rog poison. 5 of me probably can't even beat 1 good frost mage + 1 priest without dispel as today.

I am thinking abandon 1 paladin, add 1 enhance shaman.

[Fat Tire]

dispel is for snare. Fear is not a problem other than screwing up the targetting assist.

You only have 4 freedom. Mage novas 5. You will get one stuck. Mass dispel freedom, you can't even get out of hunter trap or rog poison. 5 of me probably can't even beat 1 good frost mage + 1 priest without dispel as today.

I am thinking abandon 1 paladin, add 1 enhance shaman.


Mages just got so much more powerful. That cone of cold change is amazing- screw frostbite. They have so many ways to control mass groups of melee, even more so now.

[Owltoid]

Fear is going to not last as long in cata m8.

Do we have any more information on this?

[ghonosyph]

i've been looking and looking but i just cant find the official info that i found before :( i'll keep trying! i promise!!!!

[Owltoid]

the problem is "changes to fear" is far too common of a search item when referring to Cataclysm :P

[ghonosyph]

nah it was somethign to the effect of "fear wont last as long"

[ghonosyph]

Sooooo new pally changes are up on beta, crusader strike back down to 3 seconds. Among other changes. I like it better now, faster hp gen and the dmg now feels a little more like a dps class

I don't like that art of war lost a bit more percentage to proc but I understand that it was a little high on proc rates when the cooldown on exorcism is as long as it is. Sometimes you'll have to wait a second or two to get it but its not the end of the world.

All in all with a couple changes to the prot and holy trees (talents we have access to after 31 in ret) I think things are starting to pan out. Healing hands has a minute CD and while long, can be staggered two by two to make it rather useful. Can't wait to get off work today and go beat down some fools!

[Shodokan]

Sooooo new pally changes are up on beta, crusader strike back down to 3 seconds. Among other changes. I like it better now, faster hp gen and the dmg now feels a little more like a dps class

I don't like that art of war lost a bit more percentage to proc but I understand that it was a little high on proc rates when the cooldown on exorcism is as long as it is. Sometimes you'll have to wait a second or two to get it but its not the end of the world.

All in all with a couple changes to the prot and holy trees (talents we have access to after 31 in ret) I think things are starting to pan out. Healing hands has a minute CD and while long, can be staggered two by two to make it rather useful. Can't wait to get off work today and go beat down some fools!

don't forget that you get higher crit rating and healing now for power word glory :)

[Firstcow]

Sooooo new pally changes are up on beta, crusader strike back down to 3 seconds. Among other changes. I like it better now, faster hp gen and the dmg now feels a little more like a dps class

I don't like that art of war lost a bit more percentage to proc but I understand that it was a little high on proc rates when the cooldown on exorcism is as long as it is. Sometimes you'll have to wait a second or two to get it but its not the end of the world.

All in all with a couple changes to the prot and holy trees (talents we have access to after 31 in ret) I think things are starting to pan out. Healing hands has a minute CD and while long, can be staggered two by two to make it rather useful. Can't wait to get off work today and go beat down some fools!

How fast do you build HPs? Is is one every 3 sec or other skills can be used too?
Does it feel like paladin lost the burst they have now in WOTLK?

[Owltoid]

It sounds like they're more bursty now, but it takes a ramp up phase first.

[ghonosyph]

Actually there's more options for burst now, tho some things are still not working right, you have new dps tools to use.

Technically there are only 4 ways to make holy power, crusader strike makes one when used, divine storm has a chance (45 %) and then your two spells that you use holy power for templars verdict (big dmg attack) and inquisition(buff to holy dmg). Both of those can proc one when used at 45% chance.

I can't really give feedback on the burst we have now because I just don't pvp as much with my pallys. I do know that divine storm sucks so the only reason I'd use it is for trying to proc a quick holy power before a crusader strike.

[ghonosyph]

Found some interesting new thingers lately. Divine storm hits multiple targets, but the chance to proc multiple holy power from hitting multiples has been taken away, now it will only proc one HP no matter how many targets you hit. I believe they did this in response to the 3 second cd on crusader strike. It works out imo, judge, crusader, divine storm, crusader, holy wrath, crusader, divine storm makes for a pretty devestating combo for aoe lol. The dmg is still lackluster, but the mastery bonus increase is good. Just wish it was working fully. Also of note, rumor has it they're changing divine storm to holy dmg not weapon dmg ie 20 50 90 % weapon dmg as holy dmg** that would make it scale with both weapon and mastery and would make it worth half a damn too. Im leaning toward the idea that pallys in pvp are pretty gimped, but our pve implications are pretty decent. Bubble lasts measely seconds now, lol theres just not enough passive heals to make it work anymore imo

[Shodokan]

Found some interesting new thingers lately. Divine storm hits multiple targets, but the chance to proc multiple holy power from hitting multiples has been taken away, now it will only proc one HP no matter how many targets you hit. I believe they did this in response to the 3 second cd on crusader strike. It works out imo, judge, crusader, divine storm, crusader, holy wrath, crusader, divine storm makes for a pretty devestating combo for aoe lol. The dmg is still lackluster, but the mastery bonus increase is good. Just wish it was working fully. Also of note, rumor has it they're changing divine storm to holy dmg not weapon dmg ie 20 50 90 % weapon dmg as holy dmg** that would make it scale with both weapon and mastery and would make it worth half a damn too. Im leaning toward the idea that pallys in pvp are pretty gimped, but our pve implications are pretty decent. Bubble lasts measely seconds now, lol theres just not enough passive heals to make it work anymore imo

From what i've seen from my play time as well it looks like it's over as a boxing team unless something drastic changes.

Ooh well. Looks like a multi-class melee team will still work though.

Arms, unholy, enhance, ret still should work fine with a healer.

On a side note, shaman look extremely strong.

[Maxion]

I think if you spend your holy power on healing with word of glory instead of damage, when needed, especially with the increased healing on others talent, you'll have enough healing.
And since in cata it will be less about bursting and more about being able to outheal their damage while outdamaging their healing, it may still be a viable comp yet.

[ghonosyph]

Maybe... The new seal would help quite a bit, but dmg output would be bad. I'm thinking 2 dk 3 ret will make a really bitchin team. Enough passive healing and you can control with frost really well. Double hungering cold, double chains 2 dg and lots and lots of dmg. Since I have 3 dks I'll prolly do this for my main team, and pve with 3 dk 2 pally lol

also, pallys right now get inquisition, which ups your holy dmg by 30 %... But ALL our attacks don't do holy dmg, exorcism and consecrate and holy wrath are the only things getting the buff. Judgement too I think but even still... Wtf! Lol

[Owltoid]

Found some interesting new thingers lately. Divine storm hits multiple targets, but the chance to proc multiple holy power from hitting multiples has been taken away, now it will only proc one HP no matter how many targets you hit. I believe they did this in response to the 3 second cd on crusader strike. It works out imo, judge, crusader, divine storm, crusader, holy wrath, crusader, divine storm makes for a pretty devestating combo for aoe lol. The dmg is still lackluster, but the mastery bonus increase is good. Just wish it was working fully. Also of note, rumor has it they're changing divine storm to holy dmg not weapon dmg ie 20 50 90 % weapon dmg as holy dmg** that would make it scale with both weapon and mastery and would make it worth half a damn too. Im leaning toward the idea that pallys in pvp are pretty gimped, but our pve implications are pretty decent. Bubble lasts measely seconds now, lol theres just not enough passive heals to make it work anymore imo

This change in dynamic is very scary for the priest team. Can you test holy nova to see if you only get one shot to proc Surge of Light vs the current system where you get a chance per toon hit?

On rereading your post, I think priests are safe, but it's something to keep in mind.

[ghonosyph]

As is your proc chance hitting many targets will be high as in the more targets hit the more likely you are to proc. The change for divine storm only limits the holy power gain to one per cast instead of multiples. I see this as a negative change to boxers but a positive change to paladin and game design. They don't want an aoe fest and a weak aoe that feeds itself and gets stronger when you spam it is contradictory to the design goal :) lol big words day

[tanknspanker]

tbh, looking at the new talent tree's of all classes,

they are fucking up wow...
really