Heroics w/ Melee team

[Ragewolf]

can melee teams 5pallies or 1dk+4pallies take on all heroics? not counting oculus cause thats hard single player let alone boxing.

[Myc]

I don't see why not.
I have done quite a few and im not even geared out.
(5pally team) 1prot/4ret.
right when i dinged 80 i cleared Culling of Strath as a random no problemo.
i think the hard ones are HoL (3rd boss)... forge of souls 2nd boss... ToC 1rst boss with rogue..and idk i haven't gotten to deep into it.
some snags were i know it can be done with a healer but hope gear will fix it.

[Kicksome]

Yeah, I find it easier with 1 dk and 4 ret pallies vs a dk and 4 shaman.

I was able to do most of the new heroics with my melee team before my shaman team.

You can just keep going without stopping with the DK + 4xRet. It made instances a lot faster. No going back to collect followers and no stopping to drop anything.

[Ragewolf]

Thanks all.

[jimbobobb]

can melee teams 5pallies or 1dk+4pallies take on all heroics? not counting oculus cause thats hard single player let alone boxing.


Yes the mentioned melee teams can do all heroics - just some of the later ones are a bit gear dependant. And the oculus is ridiculously easy as a boxer. Much much much much much easier than doing it with a group.

[heyaz]

Yes, they can do all of them. I've done every regular heroic, I tend to skip ICC 5 mans because the ridiculous aoe makes them too annoying for me. That and ToC (ever since the faction champ jousting because more trouble than its worth) and Occulus (because I don't feel like setting up the macros for once instance).

[Lax]

I've done every 5 man heroic many times as 5 paladins (holy, prot, 3 ret). Most of them are doable with a prot and 4 ret after you're geared.

I find oculus very easy and I don't have any special macros. My winning strategy for ley-guardian is:
1. use all Ruby drakes
2. Put healer on the ground and make him not follow. No drake, just heal.
3. turn on FTL DPS Keys -- standard for any vehicle fight.
Then during the fight it's just a matter of spamming the attack button, which will also take out the little drakes when they come, hitting evasion every time it's up, and using the taunt button (martyrdom i guess?) on the one guy I want my healer to primarily focus on (i click it so it doesnt broadcast). Fly around during phase shift and that's about it.

The only 5 man content I really have a problem with as 5 paladins is the abominations in the lich king escape. Without nature resist, I have to be very careful that 1 or fewer aboms is facing my team at any given time. My holy paladin tends to die if they both spray him, and then it's really annoying to start the event over. I'm levelling up some other teams though, and may end up swapping a shaman into my paladin team for nature resist and other goodies

[Shodokan]

I've done every 5 man heroic many times as 5 paladins (holy, prot, 3 ret). Most of them are doable with a prot and 4 ret after you're geared.

I find oculus very easy and I don't have any special macros. My winning strategy for ley-guardian is:
1. use all Ruby drakes
2. Put healer on the ground and make him not follow. No drake, just heal.
3. turn on FTL DPS Keys -- standard for any vehicle fight.
Then during the fight it's just a matter of spamming the attack button, which will also take out the little drakes when they come, hitting evasion every time it's up, and using the taunt button (martyrdom i guess?) on the one guy I want my healer to primarily focus on (i click it so it doesnt broadcast). Fly around during phase shift and that's about it.

The only 5 man content I really have a problem with as 5 paladins is the abominations in the lich king escape. Without nature resist, I have to be very careful that 1 or fewer aboms is facing my team at any given time. My holy paladin tends to die if they both spray him, and then it's really annoying to start the event over. I'm levelling up some other teams though, and may end up swapping a shaman into my paladin team for nature resist and other goodies

This, but with dk + 4 rets. I only do a few bosses in icc 5 mans.

[Boylston]

My experience with DK+4xRets is that I have been able to do just about any heroic I wanted (or needed).

I'll echo a few others...

I tend to run a random heroic each night for the frost badges, but I'll "turn down" queues for the Pit of Saron and Halls of Reflection as well as Oculus. Oculus isn't hard, I just don't like it and I don't have a character that can be dedicated healer for the "easy mode" strategy mentioned elsewhere. PoSaron isn't impossible, but the last section and boss of it aren't a sure-fire win for me and I'd rather just hit an easier heroic in the interest of time/efficiency. ToC is also often skipped, although I can't remember the last time it queued me for it.

On my gear-up path, I was able to do plenty of heroics even appropriately (or under) geared without an issue, enough to easily farm Triumph badges and get iLvl 200-232 upgrades. I made sure to do normal and heroic ICC bosses at the beginning of the instances for the juicy upgrades there, especially in PoSaron.

Unless Cataclysm is filled with more "challenging" 5-mans from top-to-bottom, I plan on using instance running as a leveling and gear up strategy yet again. I think I agree with others that the all melee team is nice from a no-downtime perspective and is faster than my shaman team was. If only they gave characters a point-blank, area-of-effect loot corpses spell.... mmm...

[kate]

I'll throw my 2 cents in -

I just got to 80 and am trying to gear up my 5 paladin team - 1 prot, 4 ret. I have reasonably "OK" starter gear - I mean, other than most of the crafted epics I have the recommended minimum gear to begin doing heroics.

I'm getting my ass kicked in a most brutal fashion. My gear simply is NOT sufficient to do more than handle trash and - if I get lucky - a couple of bosses in the earliest heroics.

Partly this is due to not having more sophisticated tools (no way to spread out my team, for example, since I'm using AHK and nothing else), and partly it's due to not having any ranged damage - some bosses do a constant AOE that I simply cannot heal through unless I completely stop DPSing (and no, going 1 holy won't help - tried it, can't heal through it) and ranged would help a LOT to deal with it since it'd just be the tank taking hits.

So, from my experience - limited as it is right now - unless you're using better tools and probably willing to gear up individually somewhat before going into heroics with that team, you'll really struggle. From what people are saying here, once they gear up it's great - but it's getting geared up that's the tough part.

Either that or I am hands down the absolute worst multi-boxer ever :)

[Ualaa]

It does take a bit of time.

Running dailies with the team, should get you over 1k a day.
Which can be used to buy some BoE's, which will help out a lot.
You're better off with several iLV 200-213 pieces, then with a big 245-264 piece.

Also, if you can run several random heroics as only a tank.
Over the course of a weekend, you should have a lot of gear.
And the tank is the key position for most boxing teams.
With decent gear on this toon, everything else is so much easier.

[Lax]

I started gearing up in *normal* ToC because it's easier epics than most pre-ICC heroics, for equal or better ilvl. Plus you can run it however many times a day you want. Highly recommend that and normal mode of the ICC 5 mans for starter gear. See if you can go forgemaster on pit of saron normal mode for example, and you get a pretty sweet weapon (two ton hammer) -- way better than anything you're going to get out of heroics and pretty much good until you can finish heroic pit of saron to get a beheader (or get battered hilts). And yeah, if your tank is not defense capped, definitely try to get that first.

[BrothelMeister]

Properly geared ele shaman do not go oom.

By properly I just mean crit (crits cause clearcasting, which saves mana) combined with a Tstorm in between pulls, or during, and I never go oom.

Even with a bad tank, I can still fly through heroics without stopping.

[Fat Tire]

It cant be overstated enough with melee. You need to get the best weapon you can get as soon as possible. It is such a difference maker, its a little upsetting that blizzard designed melee around it so much.

It makes buying hilts worth it if youre brand new 80 imo

[Zappy]

I'll throw my 2 cents in -

I just got to 80 and am trying to gear up my 5 paladin team - 1 prot, 4 ret. I have reasonably "OK" starter gear - I mean, other than most of the crafted epics I have the recommended minimum gear to begin doing heroics.

I'm getting my ass kicked in a most brutal fashion. My gear simply is NOT sufficient to do more than handle trash and - if I get lucky - a couple of bosses in the earliest heroics.


If trash is giving you a problem, I would suggest that you set up some sort of CC method, then right before each pull you hit your CC button and mass repentance 4 of the mobs.

For bosses, learn to rotate Divine Shield / Divine Sacrifice into your casts and you should have a good solid 40 seconds of huge damage reduction making healing a lot easier.

[Boylston]

Cannot emphasize enough that weapons on your rets will help keep your tank alive better...

When they do more Divine Storm damage, the whole team gets more heals. Beg, borrow, or steal your way into some better weaponry. Run heroics in LFD with each pally solo if you need to. The ICC heroics and PoS normal mode (for 219 hammer) are very good options.

[Ragewolf]

Thanks again. So for a poor 5box team that wont be buying hilts whats the best weapons to farm for?

[kate]

If trash is giving you a problem, I would suggest that you set up some sort of CC method, then right before each pull you hit your CC button and mass repentance 4 of the mobs.

For bosses, learn to rotate Divine Shield / Divine Sacrifice into your casts and you should have a good solid 40 seconds of huge damage reduction making healing a lot easier.

I can handle the trash easily - the problem is on bosses that do any kind of AOE, I take so much damage so quickly on everyone that I either have to completely stop DPSing to heal or die to the AOE. Any kind of gimmick that requires everyone but the tank moving away I'm screwed on because it's ALL melee, and they can't do damage at range.

The thought is that once my gear has gotten better I won't have to stop DPSing to heal - I'll be able to mix n' match. But this is a LOT more gear sensitive than it would be if I had ranged DPS. With all melee, gearing up my tank first is important, but if my DPS isn't reasonably well geared (better than the minimum starter-heroic stuff, I think) they get creamed.

[Fat Tire]

Thanks again. So for a poor 5box team that wont be buying hilts whats the best weapons to farm for?


Golden fist weapons......made out of accumulated gold coins






















































Then trading those for hilts or 1800 weapons.

Seriously, why go thru the pain. There not that expensive.

[Lax]

I can handle the trash easily - the problem is on bosses that do any kind of AOE, I take so much damage so quickly on everyone that I either have to completely stop DPSing to heal or die to the AOE. Any kind of gimmick that requires everyone but the tank moving away I'm screwed on because it's ALL melee, and they can't do damage at range.

The thought is that once my gear has gotten better I won't have to stop DPSing to heal - I'll be able to mix n' match. But this is a LOT more gear sensitive than it would be if I had ranged DPS. With all melee, gearing up my tank first is important, but if my DPS isn't reasonably well geared (better than the minimum starter-heroic stuff, I think) they get creamed.
Which bosses in particular?

For ones with whirlwind (skadi, gal'darah, commander in nexus, marshal in toc, etc), I stop my healer from following or IWT, and I set him back 20-25 yards. When the boss starts to whirlwind, I switch to my healer and hit follow to make everyone follow him instead of the tank. Then I can run with him and my other guys are already on their way out of trouble. When whirlwind is done, I can hit IWT and continue to play from the healer, or switch back to my tank.

Of course, if you dont have a holy paladin that doesn't work so well ;) You will have to set up a way to heal quickly with FoL on AoW procs. It's harder to have 4 rets than to have one holy while gearing up.

[kate]

Which bosses in particular?

For ones with whirlwind (skadi, gal'darah, commander in nexus, marshal in toc, etc), I stop my healer from following or IWT, and I set him back 20-25 yards. When the boss starts to whirlwind, I switch to my healer and hit follow to make everyone follow him instead of the tank. Then I can run with him and my other guys are already on their way out of trouble. When whirlwind is done, I can hit IWT and continue to play from the healer, or switch back to my tank.

Of course, if you dont have a holy paladin that doesn't work so well ;) You will have to set up a way to heal quickly with FoL on AoW procs. It's harder to have 4 rets than to have one holy while gearing up.

I have it set up so that everyone can heal everyone, yeah - I can survive a whirlwind, but things like Devourer of Souls just totally destroy me.

[Lax]

Devourer of Souls is a survival fight, the trick is to simply take your time. Mirrored Soul can tear you apart, so just stop DPSing for a few seconds if you're taking too much damage, or stop your rotation and let it just be white damage while you heal

Same for Krick and Ick, first few times for me that took like 6 minutes

[kate]

Devourer of Souls is a survival fight, the trick is to simply take your time. Mirrored Soul can tear you apart, so just stop DPSing for a few seconds if you're taking too much damage, or stop your rotation and let it just be white damage while you heal

Same for Krick and Ick, first few times for me that took like 6 minutes

That's the thing - I'm not DPSing during it. I stop doing ANYTHING except trying to heal myself, right when it says that it'll be cast, but he starts doing just stupid amounts of damage out of nowhere and literally everyone is dead before I can get a flash of light off. It's crazy.

[Shodokan]

That's the thing - I'm not DPSing during it. I stop doing ANYTHING except trying to heal myself, right when it says that it'll be cast, but he starts doing just stupid amounts of damage out of nowhere and literally everyone is dead before I can get a flash of light off. It's crazy.

back the fuck up then =P

thats all i do and it works fine.

[kate]

back the fuck up then =P

thats all i do and it works fine.

Well, sure, if you want to be all *logical* about it. I'll try that once I get over the brain damage that is being caused by setting up ISBoxer.

Edit: Yay, I have it set up and working the way I want it - but hoo, boy, it's been frustrating :) I think drinking while doing anything remotely geeky like setting up new software is not a good mix. Now I shall try the whole "backing away from the damage" thing you suggest!

[Zappy]

I can handle the trash easily - the problem is on bosses that do any kind of AOE, I take so much damage so quickly on everyone that I either have to completely stop DPSing to heal or die to the AOE. Any kind of gimmick that requires everyone but the tank moving away I'm screwed on because it's ALL melee, and they can't do damage at range.

The thought is that once my gear has gotten better I won't have to stop DPSing to heal - I'll be able to mix n' match. But this is a LOT more gear sensitive than it would be if I had ranged DPS. With all melee, gearing up my tank first is important, but if my DPS isn't reasonably well geared (better than the minimum starter-heroic stuff, I think) they get creamed.

Are you doing DS/DS rotations?

When I first started heroics on my DK/rets team, I definitely had a hard time healing during those types of fights, but once I started using DS/DS on rotation, I found it so much easier. Also make sure you're blowing CDs as needed. After you DS/DS rotation, make sure to pop wings for that extra dps boost and heals.

Those first few heroics without badge gear will still be tough, but once you get a few pieces, you'll start to notice the difference in no time. I've cleared every heroic on these guys with the exception of heroic HoR.

For FoS Devourer of Souls in particular, slow way down -- this fight is not a dps race and if you're popping CDs and stuff with extra damage like army of the undead, you'll get eaten alive when mirror of souls gets put on you. If you're quick enough, you can pop DS/DS on the paladin that gets the mirrored soul debuf and go to town. If not, bind a key to stop attacking. Just make sure to move out of the way as soon as you see him jump. Also make sure you put up your shadow aura.

The three keys to that fight are A) stop DPS when you see him casting mirror of souls, B) move and fight him elsewhere when he jumps and drops a puddle on the ground, and C) when he casts wailing souls, get behind him asap. If you follow those three steps, the group heal from divine storm should be plenty to keep your guys topped off.

[kate]

Are you doing DS/DS rotations?

When I first started heroics on my DK/rets team, I definitely had a hard time healing during those types of fights, but once I started using DS/DS on rotation, I found it so much easier. Also make sure you're blowing CDs as needed. After you DS/DS rotation, make sure to pop wings for that extra dps boost and heals.

Those first few heroics without badge gear will still be tough, but once you get a few pieces, you'll start to notice the difference in no time. I've cleared every heroic on these guys with the exception of heroic HoR.

For FoS Devourer of Souls in particular, slow way down -- this fight is not a dps race and if you're popping CDs and stuff with extra damage like army of the undead, you'll get eaten alive when mirror of souls gets put on you. If you're quick enough, you can pop DS/DS on the paladin that gets the mirrored soul debuf and go to town. If not, bind a key to stop attacking. Just make sure to move out of the way as soon as you see him jump. Also make sure you put up your shadow aura.

The three keys to that fight are A) stop DPS when you see him casting mirror of souls, B) move and fight him elsewhere when he jumps and drops a puddle on the ground, and C) when he casts wailing souls, get behind him asap. If you follow those three steps, the group heal from divine storm should be plenty to keep your guys topped off.

I've been getting IS/ISBoxer working, but I am going to try these things - especially the DS staggering. I hadn't really thought of it as wasted healing, but in a lot of cases, 4x ret doing DS all at once is going to be massive overkill.

Thanks all for the tips!

Edit: My biggest problem is that 1-80, dungeons were REALLY easy, so now that there are tricks I'm sloppy about handling them. I just need to take some time to think things through more.

[Zappy]

oops.. I didn't even mean Divine Storm on rotation, however that may help a little too.

The DS/DS rotation is shorthand for Divine Shield / Divine Sacrifice. Basically, you pop Divine Shield on one of your paladins, then immediately pop Divine Sacrifice. With 2 points in Divine Guardian, Your entire party takes 50% less damage for 6 seconds, another another 30% less damage for another 4 seconds. All the damage is redirected to the paladin and if he's got divine shield up, he won't be taking any damage. If you stagger that during a fight, you'll have 40 seconds of damage reduction.

Yes, the 1-80 dungeons were really easy. Gear is the big equation here. Melee scales a lot better than casters, so with a few upgrades, you'll start to "feel" the difference, and the next thing you know you'll be flying through them.

[kate]

oops.. I didn't even mean Divine Storm on rotation, however that may help a little too.

The DS/DS rotation is shorthand for Divine Shield / Divine Sacrifice. Basically, you pop Divine Shield on one of your paladins, then immediately pop Divine Sacrifice. With 2 points in Divine Guardian, Your entire party takes 50% less damage for 6 seconds, another another 30% less damage for another 4 seconds. All the damage is redirected to the paladin and if he's got divine shield up, he won't be taking any damage. If you stagger that during a fight, you'll have 40 seconds of damage reduction.

Yes, the 1-80 dungeons were really easy. Gear is the big equation here. Melee scales a lot better than casters, so with a few upgrades, you'll start to "feel" the difference, and the next thing you know you'll be flying through them.

...

:o I am a dummy. I hadn't even imagined using something like that. It will change everything :)

[Ughmahedhurtz]

Of course, if you dont have a holy paladin that doesn't work so well ;) You will have to set up a way to heal quickly with FoL on AoW procs. It's harder to have 4 rets than to have one holy while gearing up. This is something I'm gonna have to try. IWT on tank + 3 melee dps and play the healer type instead...an intriguing thought. Be tough on bosses with cleave.

[Boylston]

A couple comments:

I would NOT advocate going dedicated healer route. It's not necessary. Spend the time you'd spend configuring a multiboxing setup with a dedicated healer on setting your team up with a repeater area or keybind set that will allow you to easily redirect all Flash of Light and Cleanse casts on the same team-mate, as well as "everyone heals themselves".

As others have mentioned, if you start taking big damage to point-blank AoE stuff.... MOVE OUT OF IT and then PAUSE DPS to heal everyone up. All too often, early on, I was suckered into thinking I needed to just burn the boss down super fast. Top everyone off, there's not a berserk timer on these heroic encounters.

To the "How do I get weapons if I'm poor". I think a good option is to run your team INDIVIDUALLY through ICC 5-man heroics for a shot at the 232 weapons that drop. In a couple hours each night, you can get a lot of your team through and probably get 1 weapon a night that way early on. When a couple of your DPS has 232s, you should be able to EASILY farm Pit of Saron Normal (first boss only) to get the rest of your team iLvl219 hammers.

My team got a complete set of 219 hammers with nothing more than green/blue quest gear and the weapons from the Amphitheatre of Anguish questline (iLvl 170-187??).

If you do decide to farm gold, I'd spend it on GDKP runs with your tank to gear it up nicely (a lot of servers run regular ToC25 GDKP runs). I spent 3000g on a couple GDKP runs with my DK and ended up with 5-6 iLvl 245 items in two weeks--- GREATLY streamlined PvE as a result.

[kate]

Bringing this thread back (kinda) from the dead:

I have an all Paladin team (and I also can swap my tank out to have 4 shaman as well - 1 resto, 3 enhance, or whatever configuration works) - and I am *finally* making progress in handling heroics.

My tank is now geared 100% in stuff that you can trade Triumph badges for (still need a trinket other than the Black Heart, though) and the rest of my team is wearing (mostly) crafted blues, a the 2 crafted epics (head and feet) and then a couple of drops from normal FoS and PoS - so we don't exactly outgear the content but we're getting there.

What I'm noticing is that some heroic dungeons are absolutely trivial - Draktharon was easy, including King Dred (without any fear mitigation on the paladins, even), Old Kingdom. Some "normal but heroic" fights are also nothing - Brojham, Garfrost are easy. Others, however, completely ruin me - I cannot get past Hydronox in Anub on heroic (I get it to about 45%), and other fights in some dungeons where having real range is a huge advantage.

Some dungeons I haven't even tried the other bosses - for example, normal PoS, I haven't even tried Krik and Ick or whosit the dragon guy yet - I'm wondering, for an all melee team, how hard are those fights? I'm going to try to get past PoS tonight, so that I can do HoR and hopefully farm that shield off of Marwyn as that would be a nice upgrade for my tank.

For people playing all melee teams, what are your easy instances? What are the fights that just brutalize you?

[ZooljinX]

Only HC i have issue's with is HoR last part, those Aboms are so poop, else is pritty much faceroll when you get past 5k gs, what tactics do you use on Hydronox?

[OzPhoenix]

Kate,

Not sure why Hadronox is presenting a problem, I assume you're moving out of the poison right and cleansing your team as required?

Easy Heroics for 5xMelee (with say minimal, but not totally trashy gear)

DTK
UK (assuming follower-only movement is available for Ingvar phase 1)
OK
CoS

Those four I think would be doable for a 5xMelee team virtually in quest blues. AN is trickier because the first boss can run a team of off-healers out of mana if the DPS is low, and Anub'Arak is a right pain in the ass with his Pound attack that doesn't display his direction well.

As for the ICC 5mans (normal), none will be easy I reckon until the team has a little gearing.

Devourer of Souls will eat up poorly geared Melee in FoS. For PoS, Frick and Ick take some learning and Tyrannus is a small gear check. In HoR both encounters can run 5xMelee dry for mana (I'm assuming the 4xMelee are Ret Pallies doing off-healing for the tank).

Also, as to Boylstons comments.

I'd agree that 1xTank,4xDPS+off-healing works well for Heroics. If you never want to raid, you'll never need to change that.

However, if you do want to raid, or run in Cata from what we've heard so far, I'd recommend a dedicated healer. Either gear up first with 1xTank,4xDPS and then faceroll through Heroics to gear a Healer (what I'm doing right now), or go 1xTank,3xDPS,1xHealer from the get go.

[kate]

With Hydronox I am moving out of the poisons and cleansing, but what seems to happen is that my team winds up getting scattered (like, at least 2 members will, for some reason despite my not telling them to IWT, run off to some far corner of the room and sit in a corner) or the placement of the poison graphic on the ground will make it look like we aren't in it, but we are. I'm sure I'll get it at some point.

Yesterday I did the following heroics:

Heroic Nexus - the *entire* thing was trivial (I was assuming the mage would wreck me, but we ripped her to shreds FAST), cleared it in like, 20 minutes, no deaths.

DTK - Dred was the only one who posed any challenge, but tanking him at the middle of the stairs made the fears a non-issue. No deaths.

UK - 99% of the time this is now pretty easy assuming I don't fumble-finger during Ingvar.

OK - Totally easy, 20-25 minutes, tops.

HoL - I can get past the first 2 bosses easily, but there's no way I'm going to handle the lightning boss, so I didn't even try. Maybe once I figure out movement better I'll try - I know I could kick Loken's butt if I could get to him, so that's no worry.

HoS - I keep fumble fingering during the event; it's the stupid stuff on the ground that I wind up getting stuck in for just a tick or 2 before I can get out that winds up taking me out. So I can't even take 1 boss here, alas.

I'll try CoS today to see if I can handle it now - it was ripping me up a while ago, but that was pre-IS and pre-getting my tank geared.

What I'm doing now is just running random heroics with my team and if it's a dungeon I can handle, I clear it of course, but if I can't I just do the parts I can, by which time I can just teleport out and try to run another. If it's one I'll just repeatedly die in without taking out a single boss, I teleport out and raise some professions til the timer resets. As my gear gets better hopefully I'll clear more and teleport out less :) I did get about 35 badges on each team member yesterday, so I figure the gear will be improving quickly!

I think mostly I just need to figure out a better way to move out of stuff like fire, poison, etc. Is there any kind of add on that will say "HEY! Idiot! There is about to be stuff on the ground so move!" either while the thing is being cast or right when it gets cast? Between the consecrate and divine storm spam, it's sometimes hard to tell the difference between my stuff and patches of fire/void/etc. If anyone has ideas on better ways to handle lots of movement (I have keys set up to help my followers strafe while I sit in place, ones to make us all strafe, etc.) I'm all ears.

Right now, yes, doing the distributed healing with the rets spamming FoL as needed, and it works very well. There's never really been a time where I've died due to a lack of healing - it's always been a mechanic/movement kind of thing. What's making a dedicated healer setup seem more necessary for Cata? Though, I have been collecting a healing offset for one of my team - might as well, to get some experience with it, and maybe it'll help in some of the fights I'm finding tricky.

[uffela]

HoS - I keep fumble fingering during the event; it's the stupid stuff on the ground that I wind up getting stuck in for just a tick or 2 before I can get out that winds up taking me out. So I can't even take 1 boss here, alas.

Last and also first time in Heroic HoS, I found a couple of ways that worked with Krystallus and Maiden of Grief. When Krystallus petrifies and are about to shatter, hit Divine Shield on all and keep dpsing. He's dead just as the bubble wears off. That makes this fight trivial. Think I found that trick here somewhere and it made a huge difference.
With Maiden I wiped continuously, changed tactics and just backpedaled while tanking and let my rets whip her big, beautiful behind. She stopped for far fewer shadow pools, and died with only two rets killed. It was ugly and simple, but we danced on her corpse in the end.

Inspiring to read about your progression - I need to step up and follow through on more heroics. Keep up the good work!

[kate]

Last and also first time in Heroic HoS, I found a couple of ways that worked with Krystallus and Maiden of Grief. When Krystallus petrifies and are about to shatter, hit Divine Shield on all and keep dpsing. He's dead just as the bubble wears off. That makes this fight trivial. Think I found that trick here somewhere and it made a huge difference.
With Maiden I wiped continuously, changed tactics and just backpedaled while tanking and let my rets whip her big, beautiful behind. She stopped for far fewer shadow pools, and died with only two rets killed. It was ugly and simple, but we danced on her corpse in the end.

Inspiring to read about your progression - I need to step up and follow through on more heroics. Keep up the good work!

I'll give those bosses a try next time - I just wanted to do the Tribunal event first so I could at least see if I could take the boss. Unfortunately I suck at moving out of fire, half the time. Thanks for the tip on Krystallus! With Maiden, I'm thinking more movement is going to be painful - but if I can turn her into a badge, that's not a bad thing :)

[kate]

Just added CoS to my "easy" badge list - and got the drake, too :) Even though once Cata comes out there will be a huge gear reset, I'm having fun with this!

[zenga]

tip: if nature damage is a pain, use drums of the wild, it has 40 charges and it can make a difference

[kate]

tip: if nature damage is a pain, use drums of the wild, it has 40 charges and it can make a difference

!!! GOOD point! I have one of every profession, so I could use consumables to bolster my chances - I'll give that a shot!

Edit: I'd been avoiding using consumables for.. well, I'm not sure why, but it made sense at the time. I'm out of the habit of using them, I guess.

Edit #2: I figured out a way to handle the Smash/Dark Smash from Ingvar - there seems to be a little LOS issue where I can just back my rets up behind a pole in the stadium. Ingvar kept on randomly turning around to smash/dark smash the rets, so I had to improvise this. Yay for another heroic I can do "easily!" :)

[zenga]

Aye, consumables can really give that extra boost you might need. I use the drums of the wild and drums of the forgotten kings, the stamina scrolls and out a great feast before starting a challenging fight. Flasks & elixirs are very useful as well, but that will get pretty damn expensive in the long run.

[OzPhoenix]

With Hydronox I am moving out of the poisons and cleansing, but what seems to happen is that my team winds up getting scattered (like, at least 2 members will, for some reason despite my not telling them to IWT, run off to some far corner of the room and sit in a corner) or the placement of the poison graphic on the ground will make it look like we aren't in it, but we are. I'm sure I'll get it at some point.

Let you in on a secret, I rarely use IWT during combat. I've found it's just too flaky. I use it for taggin vendors and the like but that's about it. I accept a minor hit in DPS, to avoid the very often documented cases of followers going running off in all four directions after an IWT selected target dies.

The hit, of course, is that the Rets won't start DPS'ing on the prots new target until they receive a keystroke translating to some attacking ability. Still, even after chatting with Lax about it over on ISBoxer.com forums, for me personally, I keep my finger off the IWT unless I really really need it (or can afford to have funny things happening).


Yesterday I did the following heroics:

Heroic Nexus - the *entire* thing was trivial (I was assuming the mage would wreck me, but we ripped her to shreds FAST), cleared it in like, 20 minutes, no deaths.

Well done on Nexus. I actually ran into problems on that with my team in getting past the frozen Alliance boss (Stoutbeard) and his nasty whirlwind. Once I held DS in reserve for that it got onto a farm status. Also, you probably know this already, but just in case, when facing up to Ormorok if you get the whole team cheek to cheek with him, you'll miss all the spikes and can treat it like a static tank 'n spank fight.


DTK - Dred was the only one who posed any challenge, but tanking him at the middle of the stairs made the fears a non-issue. No deaths.

Yeah, Dred's the hardest one in there I think (though Novos can run Rets mana out if DPS is low). I actually tank him inside that enclosure, both to reduce the sprint on the fear, and to nab the achievement as well. He's also got that nasty teeth-bearing stomp thing going on but his mostly cuddly 'n fun.


UK - 99% of the time this is now pretty easy assuming I don't fumble-finger during Ingvar.

OK - Totally easy, 20-25 minutes, tops.

I use my Ret-only movement keys for that one. I just keep an eye on where Ingvar is about to throw that AoE stomp and strafe 'em around the side. I hear the column works well for that too.


HoL - I can get past the first 2 bosses easily, but there's no way I'm going to handle the lightning boss, so I didn't even try. Maybe once I figure out movement better I'll try - I know I could kick Loken's butt if I could get to him, so that's no worry.

This was one of the last dungeons I put onto farm, and I assume you're having issues with Ionar too. The mobs just past Volkhan are a pain in the ass too with their fear which requires a target-reset to restore as well.

For Ionar, I heal through his electricity debuff he attaches to one player, then do the runner when he changes into his lightning spider things. DS is also handy for that player-debuff if it comes down to it.


HoS - I keep fumble fingering during the event; it's the stupid stuff on the ground that I wind up getting stuck in for just a tick or 2 before I can get out that winds up taking me out. So I can't even take 1 boss here, alas.

Phase 2 and 3 is where you need to be on the move a little. The laser in particular is very slow to react, so if you campe somewhere on the stairs for a few seconds, then shift positions the laser hits where you were, not where you've moved to. Consecrate is a real bonus here for picking up the mobs too.


I'll try CoS today to see if I can handle it now - it was ripping me up a while ago, but that was pre-IS and pre-getting my tank geared.

Glad to hear in a subsequent post you slaughtered H CoS. Once the team all has their Drakes, go for the Zombiefest achievement - it's a lotta fun... hehe.


What I'm doing now is just running random heroics with my team and if it's a dungeon I can handle, I clear it of course, but if I can't I just do the parts I can, by which time I can just teleport out and try to run another. If it's one I'll just repeatedly die in without taking out a single boss, I teleport out and raise some professions til the timer resets. As my gear gets better hopefully I'll clear more and teleport out less :) I did get about 35 badges on each team member yesterday, so I figure the gear will be improving quickly!

Sounds like you're getting over that curve. I did the same thing, at the start I could only count on about 12 badges a day, but it kept expanding, and now the team can do 'em all. Have you got the i219 weapons out of normal ICC 5mans yet?


I think mostly I just need to figure out a better way to move out of stuff like fire, poison, etc. Is there any kind of add on that will say "HEY! Idiot! There is about to be stuff on the ground so move!" either while the thing is being cast or right when it gets cast? Between the consecrate and divine storm spam, it's sometimes hard to tell the difference between my stuff and patches of fire/void/etc. If anyone has ideas on better ways to handle lots of movement (I have keys set up to help my followers strafe while I sit in place, ones to make us all strafe, etc.) I'm all ears.

DBM will do it nicely, though I reckon just knowing the fights will be better than DBM, which is reactive only. Frick and Ick in PoS is like that - DBM will tell you your standing in goo, but by the time it does, the rets are turning green and sticking one foot in the grave already.


Right now, yes, doing the distributed healing with the rets spamming FoL as needed, and it works very well. There's never really been a time where I've died due to a lack of healing - it's always been a mechanic/movement kind of thing. What's making a dedicated healer setup seem more necessary for Cata? Though, I have been collecting a healing offset for one of my team - might as well, to get some experience with it, and maybe it'll help in some of the fights I'm finding tricky.

Well for Raiding, the dedicated healer is, I think, a must. To be honest, I'm going off ICC and VOA only - Naxx seems ok (proabably because I'd outgeared it by then and was running with another 5-boxer who had a dedicated healer).

The problem with 4xRet-healing in a raid setting is that the tank is taking so much damage that the Rets spend almost as much time healing as DPS'ing (particularly if they have to heal without an instant FoL proc). Not only does that dampen down their DPS a lot, but their Heals are very mana-inefficient when compared to what Holy's can put out, especially on single-target (that is, tank) healing. In the raids I've been in, even just ICC trash killing for Rep, the Prot's always bouncing around 100% mana, and the Rets are often as not gulping down another drink after every second fight.

Worse, if the Rets run dry during combat, then no mana means no healing, and everyone gets a free trip to a glowing white angel.

What I'm planning for my team (just one piece of gear to go before converting Pally #5 to Holy), is to use the Holy for tank-only healing and emergency Ret healing, and use the Rets healing to top themselves up when taking occasional damage from melee-aoe's and the like, using all those lovely free, instance FoL's they proc so often (and which Jamba helpfully displays for me).

As to Cata, I'm making an assumption there. I figure with a focus on bringing CC back into the regular dungeon running picture, I susepct they'll try and re-inforce the traditional 1 x Tank, 3 x DPS, 1 x Healer set up for 5mans as well.

Oh, and PS: Yeah, get those Drums. +54 Nature Resist (for which we have no Aura to duplicate), and Stamina and they're dirt cheap to make (unlike the much more expensive Fortitude Scrolls).

[kate]

Thanks for the detailed comments, as usual, Oz!

I don't use IWT when fighting Hydronox - so I'm not sure why they're running away. It's really strange. I'm sure I'll get it sorted out or, once I get a few more pieces on my rets, just brute force through it.

Got the hammers on all rets, and as soon as they all qualify for the heroic version, I plan on farming Heroic PoS trash to get hilts - most likely to sell, since Cata is nigh and money trumps gear that'll be instantly replaced.

With regards to raiding - I'm assuming you're talking about raiding with another boxer (or other people) and not 5-boxing raids? If you are 5-boxing anything, please let me know your secrets - I would love to try some of the earliest raids in Cata with only 5, if it's remotely possible. I will have at least 1 dual-spec healing & retribution once Cata hits. Actually, right now my current tank would be better as a ret/healing than protection, since her professions are more geared towards casters (ench/tailor) and one of my rets would be a better tank since she's mining/blacksmith. Alas, I was dumb when I first started gearing them up in heroics, so I just have a ret with more stamina than the others and a tank with a little less than she could have.

My thinking right now with regards to heroics is that I want to farm them now for money - there's no equipment they drop (except for the ICC heroics, and I can't come close to handling those yet) that would be an upgrade, and since equipment will soon be reset with Cata, farming up money, which is always useful, should be reasonable.

[Whowantstoknow]

There's quite a few encounters that can be 5 boxed "solo". I've personally done most of Naxx, Flame Levi and Marrowgar I know there's others I could do too but haven't really tried such as Sarth.

I run a 5xpally team but have switched in a shaman and dk.

[d0z3rr]

I don't use IWT when fighting Hydronox - so I'm not sure why they're running away. It's really strange. I'm sure I'll get it sorted out or, once I get a few more pieces on my rets, just brute force through it.


I rarely got to Hadronox on heroic on my pallies. They still had the crappy crafted epic 2h mace (forgot the name) and were doing terrible DPS, so I always wiped on the guantlet because i couldn't kill the last wave fast enough before the boss aggroed. I did manage to get past the guantlet once on heroic, but got my ass handed to me on the last boss (can't remember why though...). When I enountered hadronox on heroic I simply used the same exact procedures as normal (you did kill her on normal right? if not, try practicing on normal).

As for hadronox I remember she was very easy in normal after some practice. Did you try grouping your paladins up? When she does the spew thing just mash your cleanse keys until your paladins are clean. If you have a /click set up on all your pallies then all you have to do is watch the ground for the poison cloud. When it appears simply strafe all your paladins to the right or left. They will move as one so it's much easier.

If you're getting runaways, do not mash the IWT bind. It is very consistent and you should never have to mash it, just hit it once to start attacking. Unlike /assist, where I find I have to mash that multiple times for everyone to get their targets. Also, make sure you aren't getting the classic runaways. That is where you release the shift key before the movement key. This happens if you are rushing things or are in a frantic movement situation.

[kate]

There's quite a few encounters that can be 5 boxed "solo". I've personally done most of Naxx, Flame Levi and Marrowgar I know there's others I could do too but haven't really tried such as Sarth.

I run a 5xpally team but have switched in a shaman and dk.

What gear level were you? Would those encounters be feasible for a team entirely in triumph badge gear, do you think?

[Maxion]

What gear level were you? Would those encounters be feasible for a team entirely in triumph badge gear, do you think?

(all of this post is talking about 5-boxing stuff by yourself)

A lot of naxx is, maybe flame leviathan if you can get the controls right.
Personally I did some of naxx within a month of hitting 80 on my team, so that was in mostly 226 gear.
I haven't tried flame leviathan a lot of times yet, but I was getting him to about 20% on my third try in mostly 232 gear with some 245 and 251 stuff.
Sarth should be pretty easy if you can find a way to handle the portals on the one mini boss that goes immune until you kill the thing inside the portal, but if your team is all wearing plate then you should be fine on that, my squishies have not even dared try that one yet.

Marrowgar I haven't even dared try to do by myself yet since my tank doesnt even have over 40k health unbuffed (outside of icc) yet, and my team is around 5k-5.4k gearscore.

To successfully 5-box marrowgar i think the team would have to be quite geared. Since even with a full raid the gear requirement is quite high for doing it with one tank and one healer, or at least those two have to be geared.

[kate]

Farming HPoS now for hilts... Just got my first on my second run through clearing trash :)

[OzPhoenix]

Farming HPoS now for hilts... Just got my first on my second run through clearing trash :)

Grats! I've yet to see even one despite the 30-40 times I've run that instance.

Seems the RNG gods don't much like me.

[kate]

Grats! I've yet to see even one despite the 30-40 times I've run that instance.

Seems the RNG gods don't much like me.

Don't feel bad, Oz - I ran Baron countless times, no horse. And today I only made about 600g in 3 hours of running through HPoS farming trash; no hilt, no BoP epics even, no nothin'. On the plus side, I've now got a route that will let me do 4-6 runs an hour clearing almost all of the trash, so if I ever feel like farming up another I'll have that going for me.

[OzPhoenix]

Don't feel bad, Oz - I ran Baron countless times, no horse. And today I only made about 600g in 3 hours of running through HPoS farming trash; no hilt, no BoP epics even, no nothin'. On the plus side, I've now got a route that will let me do 4-6 runs an hour clearing almost all of the trash, so if I ever feel like farming up another I'll have that going for me.

All good... hehe.

Since I can make about 750g, give or take, per Heroic, I just ran those and then bought Hilts for the Rets.

[kate]

Woah, 750g per heroic? What are you doing to get that much?

Off of a full clear of any of the ones I usually can take quickly I only bring in about 400g or so, total. Help me, Obi Wan, for I want to make moola, too! :)

Edit: On my Prot + 4x ele shaman team I swapped out one of the ele for a resto spec - Holy crap, but it made a HUGE difference. I was trading off quite a bit of DPS to heal previously (no instant heals on elemental shaman) and would wind up overhealing etc. Now I have it so that my 3 elemental's can keep pumping out DPS non-stop while the resto can do about half her former dps and do enough healing to keep everyone healthy. I'm thinking I might actually swap the resto shaman in on my 5x paladin team, too. This might change everything :)

[OzPhoenix]

Woah, 750g per heroic? What are you doing to get that much?

Off of a full clear of any of the ones I usually can take quickly I only bring in about 400g or so, total. Help me, Obi Wan, for I want to make moola, too! :)

Edit: On my Prot + 4x ele shaman team I swapped out one of the ele for a resto spec - Holy crap, but it made a HUGE difference. I was trading off quite a bit of DPS to heal previously (no instant heals on elemental shaman) and would wind up overhealing etc. Now I have it so that my 3 elemental's can keep pumping out DPS non-stop while the resto can do about half her former dps and do enough healing to keep everyone healthy. I'm thinking I might actually swap the resto shaman in on my 5x paladin team, too. This might change everything :)

Ok, the 750g arrives this way.

Let's assume we're doing a 4 boss Heroic, pretty much the average. You also loot everything, trash included, and don't skip bosses. I'll also assume you've already done the first heroic for frost badges. On my realm, Horde, always - and I pretty much mean that literally - have Wintersgrasp too. I'm also assuming you have a chanter in your team.

1. 4 bosses, equals 4 Triumph Badges per toon, equals 20 Triumph Badges total.

2. 4 bosses equals 16 Stonekeeper Shards per toon, equals 80 Stonekeeper Shards total.

3. 4 bosses equals 4 Epics (minimum). 4 Abyss Crystals.

4. Average trash, let's call it 100 mobs. Each mob drops on average say around 40 silver. That's 40 gold.

5. Trash drops, 4-7 greens, sharded into 1 stack of Infinte Dust, plus 2 Shards, plus 2 Greater Essence and usually one Abyss Crystal (all on average).

6. Trash dops in greys whites, adds typically another 25 gold or so.

7. Gold bonus for random being 13.5 gold, times 5, makes another 67 gold roughly.

8. A frozen orb for each Heroic.

Now let's run 5 Heroics like this, at 2.5-3 per hour for 2 hours total time (I tend to go a little slowly, at least in part due to looting everything). We'll have at the end of that:

120 Triumph Badges (20 on each toon)
400 Stonekeeper Shards (80 on each toon)
25 Abyss Crystals
5 stacks of Infinite Dust
1 stack of Greater Essence
10 Shards
125 gold from trash.
335 gold from random bonus.
5 Frozen Orbs.

Total gold so far then is 460.

We downgrade the 120 Triumphs into 120 Heroisms and convert them into Epic Gems. This gives up 12 Epic gems of off-colour (Ametrines, Dreadstones and Eyes of Zul). Average sale price on my realm is 70-90 gold each, so we'll say 80. That's another 960 gold.

Total gold is now 1420 gold.

400 Stonekeeper Shards (80 on each toon) converts to 2 and 2/3 Wintergrasp commendations. That's worth 5,000 Honour, or half a primary colour gem each. These tend to sell for at least 90 gold and typically 100 gold on my realm. But we'll say 90. 90g per toon is another 450 gold, but we do this only every second batch of 5 heroics so that's another 225 gold for this batch.

Total gold is now 1645 gold.

25 Abyss Crystals will sell, on average on my realm for between 35 and 40 gold each. At 40 gold (as much for ease of calculation as anything), that's another 1000 gold.

Total gold is now 2645 gold.

5 Stacks of Infinite Dust, at 40g a stack makes another 200 gold.

Total gold is now 2845 gold.

1 stack of Greater Cosmic Essence (and I'd usually have more than that after 5 Heroics but anyway), is worth another 120 gold.

Total gold is now 3045 gold.

10 Dream Shards, at about 6 gold per shard, gives us another 60 gold.

Total gold is now 3105 gold.

5 Frozen Orbs - here it gets a little funny. Orbs on my realm sell for as little as 15 gold each. However, Eternal Fires tend to sell for as much as 30 gold each. So I convert all the Orbs (using the Orb Trainer outside the Dal AH) into Eternal Fires and sell them - minimum - for 25 gold each.So that's another 125 gold.

Total gold is now 3250 gold.

3250 gold for 5 Heroics, makes 650 gold per Heroic.

It tends to be a little more than that, because I've been conservative in some of my estimates here, and I also haven't included minor gold coming from mining or herbing, and the fairly steady and more important (relative to mining/herb) stream of leather coming from the leatherworker skinning everything he can. Putting up a weeks worth of Heroic running (about 15 I guess) has my auction alt listing 17 stacks of Borean Leather (17 gold per stack for another 289 gold) and 3 stacks of Nerubian Chitins at 60 gold at stack for another 180 gold.

I only AH over the weekends, letting the stuff build up mid-week so, if I ran 10 heroics a night for 4 nights, I'd probably only make around 1600 gold or so, but then come the weekend, my auction alt was list all the stuff I got and he'd rake in another 10-12k gold in AH sales.

This week I did less, so had about 800 gold extra in cash, and AH sales have netted about 4,500 gold so far (it's 8am Sat morning, I listed all the stuff at 7pm Fri night).

[kate]

Hm, I've been using the mats to craft with but I think I'm going to try your approach and see if I can convert things to more gold by just selling 'em raw.

How bizzarre - it cut off a huge chunk of my post! Here's the upshot:

It would probably take me 2 hours to do 5 heroics successfully, assuming I got good luck with the random generator - call it 2.5 hours to be conservative. Horde on my server *never* have WG so that'd take a bit of a chunk out, too. But it's steady, which the hilts are not, and I think I have probably defied the odds by getting 2 hilts in a total of 7 hours farming. Also, farming for them is BORING and then I have to deal with bargain hunters when I try to sell 'em in trade.

I think I'll try a mix of your method and my box-friendly daily routine - in about 3.5 hours I would pull in, maybe 4k assuming I can sell everything, which is nothing to sneeze at.

[OzPhoenix]

Probably the best method of saving gold, is to employ a variety of methods. Heroic farming is pretty good (maybe there's something even better), but do any one activity long enough, and you'll be bored to tears.

I mixed it up too with Argent tournament dailies (those pets, at 40 seals per, will sell well come Cata when no-one wants to hang around Icecrown long enough to buy them), and now, with my gearing complete, I'm also beginning to spend some time doing older-content too.

[kate]

Probably the best method of saving gold, is to employ a variety of methods. Heroic farming is pretty good (maybe there's something even better), but do any one activity long enough, and you'll be bored to tears.

I mixed it up too with Argent tournament dailies (those pets, at 40 seals per, will sell well come Cata when no-one wants to hang around Icecrown long enough to buy them), and now, with my gearing complete, I'm also beginning to spend some time doing older-content too.

You're very right in that mixing is going to be less fatiguing - I'm able to once or twice do something like farm in one spot for 3 hours or so, but for the most part that can only be when I am trying to test something out, refining a process, etc. Once I have it down it just gets boring.

Mixing up dailies (including icecrown) with heroics is working for me - I will queue for the dungeon, if it's one I can't make a dent in we'll just leave and do some dailies until the cooldown runs out, try again, do dailies, etc. It's pretty varied and fun.

[lightstriker]

this has been a helpful thread. Can't let it die. I found a easy way to melee the Devourer. Posted in Strategy thread. http://www.dual-boxing.com/showthread.php?t=27299&page=7 (http://www.dual-boxing.com/showthread.php?t=27299&page=7)

There are stands(?) around the dungeon with 4 skulls. There is a big one behind the Devourer. Go around it, hug the wall to the platform. Jump on the stand from the platform. It will not leap with Well of Souls. It will cast Wailing Souls, the laser that sweeps the room, at about 50%. Bubble or jump off and run.

There are 3 variations on this. Its best if you move with the 2 mouse buttons down and just let go after jump.
1. Jump on the stand and aggro.
2. Range aggro. As it comes up the stairs, run and jump. It will go back down, only if you dont let it come all the way back up. I don't know if it will jump to the stand from the platform. I never stay long enougn. I know that it will jump from the floor to the platform.

these 2 never worked for me because a slave will always miss the jump. Whether I tap space 2x or spam it.

3. this is the long way but works.
Set the slaves on the platform ready to jump. Set tank at max distance with range fire ready. Swing the camera facing the hall. Fire aggro, right click to move to the hallway to reset. Quickly switch to slaves, move, jump 1 by 1. Now get the tank back. It will respawn right before the tank jumps.

Then its just tank and spank.
Also, i think because the toons are inside it(clipping?), Wailing Souls will hit no matter which way its facing.

for undergear Trollgore. http://www.dual-boxing.com/showthread.php?p=293972#post293972 (http://www.dual-boxing.com/showthread.php?p=293972#post293972)
not that anyone really needs it.

[Zerocool2024]

Thought I would throw in my 2cents...

Been a while since I have been active in the community, just got busy with work. Trying to get back into it :)

Anyway.

I used to 5box 5 Death Knights through most Heroics back in the day with all of them being a hybrid tank/dps with Frost Presence up with absolutely crap gear. None of them were Hit caped, nor Defense caped, or had any professions.

Really, it was just general knowledge of how to play the class and setting the right macros for most, if not all occasions that can happen in a dungeon. Now that I look back at my play style, macros, gear and such. I have no freaking clue how I pulled half that stuff off. If you just keep a cool head, know the fights, and have the right macros, most any dungeon is doable even ICC raids.