Does anyone else see Cataclysm as The End?

[Kalros]

So is anyone else getting the feeling that Cataclysm is going to be what drives you away from playing WoW, at least as a Multi-boxer?

From everything I've seen posted about the changes in Cataclysm, it looks like it is going to be a hell of alot harder to multibox successfully in Cataclysm. From the return of Crowd Control, AoE tanking Nerfs, Dispells, Paladin Nerfs, etc. I'm sure these changes are not intended to hurt boxers, but they most certainly will.

I can see why single-boxers may like the changes. Content will be more difficult and challenging, and spells and abilities will be alot more 'reactive'. But the only reason I've played WoW this long is because of how much I enjoy boxing. Be it running Heroics, building new teams, doing PvP, being able to play 5 characters and do it all myself without having to rely on anyone else is why I keep playing.

I just have a bad feeling about Cataclysm overall, I guess. I will certainly play through it and hope that everything will not be as bad as I envision, but with all the game changes and 'The Old Republic' right around the corner, my days of playing WoW may end this year. Sad to say it, but I can certainly see it coming.

[Svpernova09]

I hate condescending doomsayer posts. If you don't like it, show blizzard with your money and stop playing.

At the same time, we went through this when they started announcing wrath changes. The nerdrage that ensued when they realigned buffs (specifically ToW no longer stacking + unable to chain Hero / Bloodlust) was pretty rampant, yet paladin 4 shaman are still the easiest comp to run through 1-80. I think it's far to early to tell. I'm very anxious to see what they do with the class changes. But we really won't know anything until boxers get into the beta and start the hands on testing. Anything before then is premature speculation at best.

Personally, I'm concerned with the direction. It's pretty evident all the people that made WoW successful have gone to other projects and the current team is just trying to keep it "between the ditches". I loved the Wrath expansion. I loved being able to easily / casually raid content. I hope they continue to keep this philosophy and cater the game to the masses instead of the hardcore elite. I'm just getting tired of relearning the game every patch and tired of the constant PvE nerfs to "fix" PvP.

[Slimjim19]

I think its too early to judge Cata. Classes are going to be pretty much re-designed. If anything, being a boxer going in will be nice. Especially one with multiple teams that can shuffle members around if new class combos are better.

I am waiting till they release all the class info before I make any decisions.

[Bloodcloud]

I hate condescending doomsayer posts. If you don't like it, show blizzard with your money and stop playing.

At the same time, we went through this when they started announcing wrath changes. The nerdrage that ensued when they realigned buffs (specifically ToW no longer stacking + unable to chain Hero / Bloodlust) was pretty rampant, yet paladin 4 shaman are still the easiest comp to run through 1-80. I think it's far to early to tell. I'm very anxious to see what they do with the class changes. But we really won't know anything until boxers get into the beta and start the hands on testing. Anything before then is premature speculation at best.

Personally, I'm concerned with the direction. It's pretty evident all the people that made WoW successful have gone to other projects and the current team is just trying to keep it "between the ditches". I loved the Wrath expansion. I loved being able to easily / casually raid content. I hope they continue to keep this philosophy and cater the game to the masses instead of the hardcore elite. I'm just getting tired of relearning the game every patch and tired of the constant PvE nerfs to "fix" PvP.

indeed. Most is speculation. Lets wait and see how it is.

[mrmcgee21]

Being that I can fall asleep mid heroics I hope they make the game as hard as possible because there is nothing we can't box kill that the avg retard x5 can kill. I really miss actually needing to set up focus cc stuff from BC heroics ( before they got nerfed into the ground at least ).

[Tonuss]

I don't think that they'll hurt multiboxing very badly. I do get the feeling that they don't have a problem with it but don't want it to become too prevalent, but the game as it currently runs seems to do that just fine.

My concern is the same as supernova's; as long as they keep the game within reach of casual players, I'll be happy. I'm on a server with friends again and am in a guild they joined, so I spend more time single-boxing these days. As long as the game remains fun and there is a reasonable progression path, I don't think this expansion will make me leave.

[Gramzngunz]

the sky is falling the sky is falling!!

[Kalros]

I hate condescending doomsayer posts. If you don't like it, show blizzard with your money and stop playing.


the sky is falling the sky is falling!!

Jesus F***ing Christ, I was just trying to have a civil conversation, even keeping it as tame as possible just so I could avoid these kind of flames! Do you guys just sit there at your computers hitting Refresh over and over again just waiting for someone to post something that you can flame the hell out of?!

I guess my inclusion of ". I will certainly play through it and hope that everything will not be as bad as I envision" , "I can see why single-boxers may like the changes", and "I'm sure these changes are not intended to hurt boxers" fell on deaf ears.

[Seldum]

I'm in the same boat as many of the others here. Let's see what happens.

But I must admit, many of the instances is a laugh. Maybe not to box, but definetly in PUG groups. I had though heroics would be far more difficult than what they currently are... I guess raids are the true test to skills and gear.

But who got the time to raid on specific days each week, not me.

[Svpernova09]

Jesus F***ing Christ, I was just trying to have a civil conversation, even keeping it as tame as possible just so I could avoid these kind of flames! Do you guys just sit there at your computers hitting Refresh over and over again just waiting for someone to post something that you can flame the hell out of?!

I guess my inclusion of ". I will certainly play through it and hope that everything will not be as bad as I envision" , "I can see why single-boxers may like the changes", and "I'm sure these changes are not intended to hurt boxers" fell on deaf ears.


Sounds like you only read the first sentence of my post. It wasn't meant to be directly negative to you, it's just that these kinds of posts happen all the time and they only breed negativity.

And yes, I spam F5 here but not hoping to find someone to flame, I hope to find someone who's doing something new (http://www.dual-boxing.com/showthread.php?t=29201) and interesting (http://www.dual-boxing.com/showthread.php?t=29361).

[Kalros]

It wasn't meant to be directly negative to you, it's just that these kinds of posts happen all the time and they only breed negativity.

I see your point.

Like I said, I'm definitely going to be playing Cataclysm. I've already got my Worgen team all planned out. I'm mostly worried about the class changes. I've spent the last couple of years really fine-tuning how I play certain classes, and now I gotta relearn everything again.

I guess sometimes you're the Rooster and sometimes you're the Hen.

[thedreameater]

I read that shaman were losing dispells and screamed.
Then I read that paladins were losing dispells and didn't bat an eye (paladins need to be nerfed through the earth)
THEN I realized I am a multiboxer.

Nerfing single classes sucks if you play them one at a time.

[jinkobi]

I don't see why people jump all over the case either when it comes to discussing Cat... WOW is a game we OBVIOUSLY care about having invested so much into the damn thing. Because the crap I've read from Blizzard concerning class changes has all sucked.

They let the game get out of control with how powerful players are now. That's from Blizzard. Cataclysm is trying to reverse what they've done- but it's too late. People are too use to being powerful and facerolling most mobs now. It's a way to nerf the game back to where they want it.. People will still play and of course I will try it- if too far from the WOW I know and love I'll be off playing SWTOR.

Sure I speak with my $$ too and have quit WOW on several ocassions and came back when they fixed their screw ups. What's the big deal on talking about the obvious direction they are taking the game.

[kate]

I'm actually excited about Cataclysm and the (hopefully major) overhaul it will bring to the game.

Not because I'm unhappy with WoW as it is, but because the reason I play WoW is that I find figuring out the mechanics and how to optimize things within that system to be really interesting. It'll be great to see what they change and how it gets changed and to spend the time tweaking my approach to the game, especially with regards to boxing.

In any case, there just isn't enough information yet to even begin to worry about things. Given that Blizzard has been ridiculously successful with WoW, I'm thinking that they would have to have an apocalyptically bad launch of Cata followed by ridiculously bad fixes followed by literally sending teams out to break the kneecaps of every single one of their paying customers before they even began to maybe start to see their number of subscribers start to possibly approach 2-3x the number of their closest competitor.

[genocyde]

Call me an elitist tool but I'm praying they make cataclysm so hard that even raid geared stacked 5 mans have trouble completing the hardest heroics. Then add hardmodes to them on top of that. Then add RNG back to the game in ways that make you yell "Come get some" and light up a cigar every time you down a heroic boss. Then convert all normal gear to the emblem system and make it rare item quality save epic drops only for final instance bosses and hard modes and bring some pride back to this loot pinata of a game :)

Hell I'd be ok with Deathwing making random appearences throughout heriocs thrown flaming balls of death at anyone that hasn't moved in 10 seconds similar to BAAL attacking randomly in the worldstone keep in diablo 2 if you stood still for too long. Bring on the pain!

[Menthu]

He,

I am with Super on this one. These posts are the same as they were with the previous expansions. I always get like the "wtf-are-the-doing-this-is-gonna-suck" feeling but usually it will be just fine.

Just wait and it will be just as nice as always.

Off topic: Cataclysm will be perfect. To visit the old world again and go around and do stuff in it = superb

Junglelove,

-Menthu

[Kalros]

I think that there are ways to make new content that is challenging, even for those who have decent gear. I think Heroic Halls of Reflection is a perfect example of that. My guys were in full EoT/EoF gear (my Paladin in ICC 10/25 gear) and that place was STILL hard as hell for me.

Yes, with the gear that is available now, you can sleep through 95% of the Heroics, but when I first started running heroics with a fresh team of 80s, it was challenging, and at times, downright impossible. I can recall many a nights yelling and cursing at my screen because I couldnt kill one boss or another, or kept wiping on trash in Old Kingdom. But over time, as I started grinding out Emblems of Heroism and getting better gear, it got a little easier, but still fun as hell.

Then after I was able to clear all the Heroics, there was 'Glory of the Hero' staring me in the face, which took me several more months.

So basically, I think the challenge should be in the content, not making classes weaker.

Even with raids. In the beginning we had Naxx, but then came Ulduar. So we had a raid that could be PUG'ed, and then a raid that was hard as f**k! Though I never set foot into Ulduar myself until after ICC was already out, I didnt mind the fact that they created raid content for the hardcore nerds. I was more than happy to continue hitting Naxx and running Heroics.

Basically, I think they may be catering towards the hardcore audience a little too much. But like everyone has been saying, we wont really know until the content is actually out.

And I'm sure if they do something drastic that alienates a majority of players, they'll be quick to go back and fix it.

[thefunk]

durp durp durp

[Ghallo]

I gotta say, all you guys complaining that WoW is too easy confuse me. If you're done then why keep playing? If you're all out of challenges ... suspend your accounts until they come out with content that IS challenging. Or try 5 boxing Naxx-ICC and see the challenges there.

Facerolling ilvl 200 content with 232+gear is of course going to be easy.

However, if you really do want a challenge - toss your gear in the bank and strap on blue i187's (Superior!). Go to those same heroics... and see how you do.

[crowdx]

I think for me on my server in Dalaran nearly every toon I see has a 5.5k or higher GS, to me that tells me something is really wrong. In the BC only raiders of high end content had the epics, now if you farm enough you can get fully decked out in frost badge gear without ever setting foot in a real raid (I am excluding the weekly etc where people are requiring 5k + GS so that they can face roll the run).
I think going back to a mid way between BC and WotLK would work fine for me. Whether I would continue to multibox would depend on what was fun.
I think the game should be more tiered than what it is now, giving everyone from the casual to the hardcore something to work for and then able to show off in the game, maybe more titles for achievements?
Change can be good :)

[Kalros]

durp durp durp

? ? ?


If you're all out of challenges ...

Yeah, for me it was creating a PvP-specific team (though I just went with the DK/4xRet, not very original, I know) and now I'm also starting Heroics with them. And I'm already finding certain bosses that are VERY difficult in minimal gear, especially as an all-melee team.

I'm also inspired by the guys doing 10-man content and may try that soon as well. I actually HOPE Cataclysm doesnt drop until November-ish, just so I can keep fooling around with current content.

[thefunk]

I personally am really looking forward to going back to the old world, it was def my favorite out of all the zones, although pita when travelling, kinda gave the game that epic feel. I personally would like to see bigger zones in expansions, I love the exploring part.

[Kalros]

I love the exploring part.

Same here. Though I never really got that feeling in WoW in general. Though I grew up on EQ1, so my view on exploration is a little biased :P

[genocyde]

I gotta say, all you guys complaining that WoW is too easy confuse me. If you're done then why keep playing? If you're all out of challenges ... suspend your accounts until they come out with content that IS challenging. Or try 5 boxing Naxx-ICC and see the challenges there.

Facerolling ilvl 200 content with 232+gear is of course going to be easy.

However, if you really do want a challenge - toss your gear in the bank and strap on blue i187's (Superior!). Go to those same heroics... and see how you do.

I don't see any difference between putting on blue gear to clear heroics now than when Wotlk was released.

The big problem was is that normals were a joke. There was NEVER a reason to run them. 90% of people skipped them even at release. All heroics AND Naxx 10/25 were clearable with lvl 70 epic gear or 80 blues. Ya, they started with more difficulty toward the end of the expansion but having that large of a chunk of the content released in the expansion be trivial was a very bad decision.

People act like this content was only recently trivialized with the addition of emblem gear from heroics and other freebie gear (VoA) and that simply isn't the case. The world first lvl 80 naxx clears included people that hadn't even hit lvl 80 yet and some were in a mix of blues and greens. Thats just sad.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

durp durp durp

OMG MACRO HAX!1 :p

Regarding the "nerfs" in the pre-beta posts by blues, consider this: In BC, 5-sham teams could basically faceroll certain content and, once geared up a bit, faceroll the rest of it and blow things up like mad. 4-sham + healer teams were nigh unstoppable in arenas and 5-sham teams in BGs were crazy. Then LK hit. Now, 5-sham heroic faceroll teams aren't easy until you way outgear the content, tank+4sham heroic teams are the new faceroll PvE team, 4-sham + healer teams still do well in arenas, 5-sham teams still do well in BGs and DK+4ret teams are now viable for just about everything the shaman teams were doing, when they most obviously were not during BC.

I expect things will change again but they won't change in a vacuum. Boxers will always have better synergy than randoms because we can stack things just the way we like to play. That won't change except to say that you might have to stack things a bit differently to cover the new gaps in abilities.

Overall, I expect things will go through a few months of WTF? and then settle down to a new discussion of what's awesome about Cataclysm.

/shrug

Change is good, especially in MMOs. My advice: stop watching the news (aka Forum Whiners [Note: not here, mostly on general and other wow-related forums]); they can only see the negatives (if it bleeds, it leads; aka more nerfs lol) and things never turn out as bad as they like to envision.

[Boylston]

I had a nice moment thinking about the loss of multi-bloodlusts and stacked ToWs... The world was indeed going to end.

My personal opinion is that the worst transition for multiboxers has already occurred with the launch of WotLK. Pre-WotLK, area of effect damage and AoE crowd control was far less common than it is today. The addition of strong AoE abilities to almost all classes really hurt PvP multiboxing and caused several interesting group compositions to go away. (e.g. 4x/5xHunters). PvE 5-man content hasn't changed a whole lot, but the same can not really be said for raiding. Boxing in raids is just not as easy at it used to be... I recall bringing 2-4 shammies into Karazhan to help fill out my guild's group as needed, but most of the raid content in WotLK hasn't supported easily bringing in extra multiboxed characters. (Mad props to those who have pulled off raiding, though!).

We've proven that the multiboxing community is pretty adaptable and will roll with whatever changes hit us. I think the expansion will be great fun, personally. Rated BGs has excited a lot of folks, myself included. It seems like the perfect boxer playground!

[Powerwar]

The day the next expansion goes released the following things will happen... all at the same time and not in that exact order:

1 ) The universe will implode
2 ) The world will explode
3 ) The sky will fall
4 ) Fire will rain from down to upside
5 ) Your brain will flip out of your head
6 ) A gnome will shit a black hole that will crit everyone with a stink ray

[Shodokan]

Nerfs to paladins? The only NERF i've seen is to prot, they stated they like the state that enhance and ret are in for the most part. Along with not being able to cleanse magic on anything but a holy paladin...

[Queshank]

Oh man I hope they DO make the game harder again. And we all as multiboxers should hope the same.

Hear me out.

Part of the reason I multibox is because I am really tired of dealing with asshats. Yes I am fully aware that I may be the asshat in this equation but that's irrelevant to my point.

I've been a hardcore raider in games like Everquest (where I used to dualbox a Cleric and an Enchanter .../sniffle ah the good old days). And I've been a raider in WoW, and far more often a casual WoW player.

I much prefer the old days where you had to raid if you wanted to see end content and if you wanted to be "oober". Hell even raiding in WoW is so much easier than in the games that came before.

What Blizzard inadvertently did when they made "oober" gear easily attainable ... is they created a whole new breed of "oober" asshats. The ones who think they're "oober" merely because they have full epics. They increased the asshole population on the servers exponentially as a result, to the point where I don't even want to play with most of the people who play this game.

I have less trouble dealing with "oobers" who have earned it by having time/inclination whatever to maximize their character and their own personal skill in the game, than I do dealing with the empty headed "oobers" who think they're awesome because they ran enough pickup groups that they had no choice but to be decked out in epics by sheer virtue of the time they put in. Frankly the oobers who earned their gear seldom PUG or have anything to do with people outside their guild, so their impact on the community is minimal at best.

Perhaps we will all find it more interesting to group and experience the game with other people again. People who have a more realistic view of their own abilities. And if so, maybe we can all go back to enjoying the game without spending 400 dollars on the cataclysm expansion and 150 dollars a month like my wife and I do :) (Probably not...the freedom of multiboxing is just worth too much to me ....but it's a concept that some people might appreciate)

[Ualaa]

I came to wow, from an everquest raiding background. I'm not saying raiding in wow is necessarily easy mode, but if there was a hard mode, everquest had it.

There were no addons where you could push a single button to cleanse the raid, and while this isn't the case with Decursive anymore, it was for more of the games life then not. Player's frames did not glow a given color when they had a debuff on them. You just had to pay attention to the game, notice when there was a debuff you could cure -- by the debuff icon -- in the 72 player raid.

There was nothing like Deadly Boss Mods or BigWigs saying, Fire phase now... or whatever. Yet people learnt, when the boss did a certain emote, the nasty shit was coming. The game took a lot more skill to play, and forced players to be observant and play as a team, much more so then wow.

I'm not saying EQ was the best game out there; I, like the majority of its player base, did make the move to warcraft. But certainly, the challenge level in EQ was far higher then its ever been in Warcraft. A move in that direction will be very much welcome.

I don't want to see it to the degree where to top 4-5 raiding guilds (per million gamers) can complete the current end-game zone of this expansion, while everyone else cannot beat the end-zone of the previous expansion despite the five extra levels. I don't want a game where 99.95% of the player base does not experience all of the raid content. I don't want to have an attunement process anything like Vex Thal (last major EQ raidzone I played through).

But more of a challenge is definitely welcome.

I'd rather have challenges, where I can overcome them myself or fail against them.... but be in control of the encounter, then be a single boxer and reliant on some idiot who cannot move out of puddles of death etc. If we need to go with mouse-over healing/decurses when needed and not drop a totem and forget about it, that makes the victory sweeter down the road. As with every expansion that has come out, we'll each look at it and decide if its fun, or if its not fun.

Boxers are very adaptable and resourceful. No matter what changes are thrown at us, we will adapt.

[Fat Tire]

Nerfs to paladins? The only NERF i've seen is to prot, they stated they like the state that enhance and ret are in for the most part. Along with not being able to cleanse magic on anything but a holy paladin...

Re read and learn.....


Protection and Retribution paladins will lose their current ability to dispel magic.

[pinotnoir]

Prot pally losing dispel and shamans losing cleansing totems is really stupid. Can you imagine pvp as a shaman. Hey Mr Rogue come poison me to death while I stand here as you kill me. I think some of these changes like needing crowd control and screwing with dispel is bad for the game. Do they think casting sheep or shackle makes the game fun? I dont know but some of the stuff I am reading just makes me wonder what blizzard is smoking.

[Kalros]

Do they think casting sheep or shackle makes the game fun? I dont know but some of the stuff I am reading just makes me wonder what blizzard is smoking.

I kind of wonder this myself. I hated crowd control back in the old days, as did all of my friends at the time. It was tedious and very unrewarding even if you successfully defeated an encounter.

There are ways of making encounters difficult without the need to bring back CC. I guess since they already have those mechanics in place, i dunno

[Zub]

From everything I've seen posted about the changes in Cataclysm, it looks like it is going to be a hell of alot harder to multibox successfully in Cataclysm. From the return of Crowd Control, AoE tanking Nerfs, Dispells, Paladin Nerfs, etc. I'm sure these changes are not intended to hurt boxers, but they most certainly will.
We're currently at the end of the expansion, and everything has been completely trivialized.
People are not currently running dungeons/heroics, they are purely and simply aoe'ing packs of mobs. This happens at every level (low instances up to heroics)
Crowd Control and aoe nerfs will only bring the game back to where it was before, and there were multiboxers then. They will still be there, and i believe a few will actually enjoy the 'challenges' (while they last) instead of mindlessly pressing the same aoe-all buttons.
The changes in classes and game dynamics (dispells, nerfs, new spells, new talents etc) is just to keep us interested and playing.
When the new expansion and you feel you don't like them, it will be the time to stop playing indeed.
If not, you'll just have to adapt once again to the new game.
I personally don't see Cata as a multiboxer breaker



But I must admit, many of the instances is a laugh. Maybe not to box, but definetly in PUG groups. I had though heroics would be far more difficult than what they currently are... I guess raids are the true test to skills and gear.


People are doing ilevel 200 instances in full i232+, of course they are trivial.
Alts are doing dumbed down instances with better gear (heirlooms etc), of course it's easier.
It's just because this is the end of the current expansion. Don't worry, i'm sure you'll find the first Cata Heroics challenging enough.

I'll disagree with your last part about raids.. I've stopped raiding as it was the ultimate timesink and wanted to spend more time with my kids, but from my experience, some of the 5 man content has been way more difficult than most the raids i've been.
The hardest part with raiding seems to have 10/20/25/40 people online, and make sure they don't stand in the blue/black/red/green goo. Then again i've only raided from MC to ulduar, so could be wrong on the latests raids)

[Zub]

Prot pally losing dispel and shamans losing cleansing totems is really stupid. Can you imagine pvp as a shaman. Hey Mr Rogue come poison me to death while I stand here as you kill me. I think some of these changes like needing crowd control and screwing with dispel is bad for the game. Do they think casting sheep or shackle makes the game fun? I dont know but some of the stuff I am reading just makes me wonder what blizzard is smoking.

re. the new dispel mechanisms, i'm sure Blizz already knows this and is working on it. heck, i'm pretty sure they probably already received a couple thousand emails on this precise topic.
Stop thinking that blizzard is trying to make the game unfun for you :-)

re. crowd control, i personaly loved it. The only part i didn't like was "LFM Magister's Terrace, only mages please".
If they manage to remove the 'this class only' component, i think it will be MUCH more interesting than "group of mobs#243, lets aoe them".
I fondly remember vanilla Strat and Scholo runs on my priest, managing the heals, shakles, and my threat to run it smooth.

[Shodokan]

Re read and learn.....


Protection and Retribution paladins will lose their current ability to dispel magic.

apparently you didn't read the last part of my sentence saying that only holy can dispel/cleanse magic... but ok. anything but holy = only holy. >_>

[outdrsyguy1]

I'm totally psyched about the expansion, you guys overlook the best stuff for us as boxers. seriously, especially pvp focused boxers.

Rated battlegrounds??? freaking awesome, i really think boxers shine more here than in arena's because there's other focus' going on and you don't have 5 people strategizing on how to take down just you. You can hide behind shit and 1 shot 4 people before they even figure out where you are! it's going to be a blast.

2nd, then new wintergrasp/daily area sounds like wintergrasp combined with the old isle of qeul'thalas days (that daily area on the island on bc). That will be awesome, open daily's with pvp to be had and alliance to be ganked! damned good times to be had, i'm telling you.

I guarantee you that nothing in this game is done with multiboxers in mind, we are such a small percentage that it's rediculous to think they even ponder us for more than 5 seconds in a month.

We're boxers, we'll find a new class combo, new skills and any other shit and use it to our advantage to rape face..... in mass quantity.

[Khatovar]

I'm just gonna wait and see. I know enough about how things work to know that they will announce a million changes before beta comes around, then make a million different ones through the course of beta and another 3 million within the first 3 months of gold.

I've still got badges to farm, raids to try to 5man, gauntlets to make it through without wipes, factions to suck up to and crap to go back into the old world and do the first time. I haven't got the time to deal with the Chicken Little's.

[Fursphere]

apparently you didn't read the last part of my sentence saying that only holy can dispel/cleanse magic... but ok. anything but holy = only holy. >_>

If you're not currently decurseing (magic,disease,poison) while tanking, you are a Failadin.

[Ualaa]

I don't see any difference between putting on blue gear to clear heroics now than when Wotlk was released.

The big problem was is that normals were a joke. There was NEVER a reason to run them. 90% of people skipped them even at release. All heroics AND Naxx 10/25 were clearable with lvl 70 epic gear or 80 blues. Ya, they started with more difficulty toward the end of the expansion but having that large of a chunk of the content released in the expansion be trivial was a very bad decision.

People act like this content was only recently trivialized with the addition of emblem gear from heroics and other freebie gear (VoA) and that simply isn't the case. The world first lvl 80 naxx clears included people that hadn't even hit lvl 80 yet and some were in a mix of blues and greens. Thats just sad.


When Burning Crusade came out, we needed to run a lot of normals to have the gear for heroics. And heroics were much harder, on an order of magnitude, then the normal versions of the instances.

In Wrath, the normals are a complete push over, aside from the newest instances from 3.3, which aren't that hard. I've seen the majority of 80's in my guild receive both the instance and heroic instance achievement at once.

Naxx 25 was totally cleared in the first week of the expansion. That is pathetically easy for any raid content.

[mrmcgee21]

I have run every heroic in blues, including ICC 5 mans. I'm really disappointed at the lack of challenge from the 5 man content in the game. In BC you had heroics for the people who really wanted an extra challenge until blizz thought it was a great idea to turn heroics into normals and basically remove that extra lair of challenge. I have literally never had to run any 5 man on normal in LK since I hit 80, that doesn't seem right to me. The fact is there is no amount of challenge that they can add to 5 man content that would keep me out and not keep out 90% of the player base as well, so let them do whatever they want .. people will 5 box it as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow. Go watch some of the old movies of scarlett 5 boxing BC heroics when they were actually hard, that guy was as efficient as most normal groups I've seen.

Why you think people should quit because they have a complaint about difficulty is beyond me, theres still a lot of areas of this game I enjoy that doesn't mean I'm not going to advocate improvements I think I would enjoy.

[genocyde]

When Burning Crusade came out, we needed to run a lot of normals to have the gear for heroics. And heroics were much harder, on an order of magnitude, then the normal versions of the instances.

In Wrath, the normals are a complete push over, aside from the newest instances from 3.3, which aren't that hard. I've seen the majority of 80's in my guild receive both the instance and heroic instance achievement at once.

Naxx 25 was totally cleared in the first week of the expansion. That is pathetically easy for any raid content.

Exactly what I was saying. I remember having trouble getting through shattered halls heroic early on dispite the availability of raid geared people doing it. It was just that hard, made it fun. In wrath I've already taken my melee team through several heroics with my tank in full PvP gear and 2 of my toons only wearing gear in half of their gear slots. Heck my DK is wearing the cloth BoA caster gear he leveled in and I still had no trouble with most of the 80 heroics. I wonder how many heroics can be cleared wearing nothing but a weapon on all 5 :)

If I can clear any heroic instance in Cataclysm without stepping foot in a normal dungeon I will consider Cata PvE a failure and use it as a purple vending machine to get ready for rated battle grounds!

[drevil]

3.0 was bad for boxers... 4.0 is worst

i still wait for infos about the new "rated bg" system, the only possible good thing for pvp boxers.

[jrkilroy]

So, what change would make you just walk away from multi-boxing? If they tweaked the API so /Click didn't work, or limited the number of commas in a macro?


Oh, yeah and;

Dooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo...oo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooom!

[crowdx]

I really think they should bring back something similar to the rep system in BC where you need a key to get into heroics and then keying for the next step up from the heroics. I liked this in BC becasue you actually felt like you were progressing, Currently I have no feeling of achievement in the game, I simply cannot assign enough time to Raid and so really only run my daily dungeon for frost badges which eventually will get me a piece of gear which in a few months will be obsolete, so really no sense of progression :(
I love getting badge gear but when you see the whole server walking around in epics it really does show the game is broken at present :(

[Velassra]

I really think they should bring back something similar to the rep system in BC where you need a key to get into heroics and then keying for the next step up from the heroics. I liked this in BC becasue you actually felt like you were progressing, Currently I have no feeling of achievement in the game, I simply cannot assign enough time to Raid and so really only run my daily dungeon for frost badges which eventually will get me a piece of gear which in a few months will be obsolete, so really no sense of progression :(
I love getting badge gear but when you see the whole server walking around in epics it really does show the game is broken at present :(

I disagree. I don't look at what everyone else has. I just don't care. I look at what I want to do and how far I want to progress...the gear is just a means to an end. My goal is to complete all the heroics, at least once, w/o help from anyone else. Gear just helps me do that. I'm finding alot of the instances overly challenging for me, maybe I'm just a Baddie, but planty left for me to do, so plenty of progression left.

[Svpernova09]

I disagree. I don't look at what everyone else has. I just don't care. I look at what I want to do and how far I want to progress...the gear is just a means to an end. My goal is to complete all the heroics, at least once, w/o help from anyone else. Gear just helps me do that. I'm finding alot of the instances overly challenging for me, maybe I'm just a Baddie, but planty left for me to do, so plenty of progression left.

Exactly. If you're doing this, and having fun, more power to you.

[Bigfish]

I'm disliking the disspell mechanics. I still don't think they've hit the sweet spot with debuffs. Best case I ever saw for this type of mechanic was FFXI, where a lot of enemies used various posions and blinds and the like, but almost none of it killed you, and it was at most an annoyance that, if a healer dispeled, was a credit to their skill, not a core mechanic wherein so-and-so gets poisoned and dies because someone else didn't click fast enough.

[Tyval]

I'm new to boxing but I found the heroics pretty challenging when I first started them in blues and a couple crafted i200 epics.


Some were doable at the beginning, but mistakes were costly.

Now that I'm better at boxing and gear (think my gearscore is around 3500-3900) the ones I first worked at are easy, and I'm working on the others that I couldn't do. I figure over all I'm probably equiv to fully i200 epic now. (few badge pieces and a few 219s. and still a few blues).

I think most that talk about face roll are those that have completely overgeared them (not all of course) to which I say , well duh :)

I actually enjoy things as they are now, I could deal with a bit more difficulty but have no desire to see things go back how they were in BC.

Just goes to show not everyone wants the same thing.

I also think that blizzard went the right direction in terms of content from a business stand point. More folks are raiding/running heroics than ever. It isn't a great business model to cater a large percentage of content to a small percentage of players. My thought is they have hard/heroic modes for those that want a challenge in raiding. I also think the badge gear for heroics is a great idea, it allows folks coming to the party late , a method to gear up and then jump in into the last tier of raiding, which again gets more folks involved.

Also correct me if I'm wrong but badge gear gets you i232 which is what ,Uldaar level gear? Frost badge is better of course but that is at about one piece per month (depending on the piece). and 251 gear drops off of normal 10man ICC, so seems that still provides a much faster way to get that level of gear.

I don't know, it all seems pretty reasonable to me, but then I don't care what other gear folks have, just like having fun and the current situation works well for me hehe.

I came from a raiding guild in EQ2, and I have to say , I didn't enjoy running the same instances all year, and still a piece short from my set at the end. Granted we didn't get to the chestpiece dropping mob till late in the expansion. Yes , you earned your gear(well for the key set pieces and good jewelery) but going a month or more between upgrades wasn't all that exciting.

Overall though I'm excited for the changes.

Tyval

[Tyval]

I hope they aren't going to the dispel mechanics in EQ2,

EQ2 started adding more and more to raid content, things that if weren't dispelled quickly would wipe the raid, it became a huge cure fest, oft times whack a mole type and burnt out healers big time. The most annoying were debuffs on players that killed dps until they were cured. A little adds a bit to the encounter, going overboard just makes it full of yuck :).

[Fursphere]

I think I will be coming back to WoW in the next few months.

As a solo boxer only. Multiboxing is done for me (LFG Queuing system really sealed the deal)- but WoW with the Cataclysm changes is getting more and more interesting!

[Ualaa]

I would like to see the level 85 instances be a challenge for a group geared in (character) level 85 quest gear. And for this same gear level to have a 0% chance of doing heroic versions of any Cataclysm instance.

Similarly, once a group was basically in mostly level 85 normal dungeon gear, I'd like the heroics to be doable but a challenge. Possibly with some variance, such that normal gear would allow for 81-83 heroics, while gear from those heroics would allow for 83-85 heroics.

Faction from the normal dungeons, to buy the key for heroic is another mechanic to force players to run normals before the heroics begin. I'd prefer to do away with the artificial limit of a key unlocking the content, and to just use the difficulty of the encounter.

Ideally, our groups will need to run normals, for the gear to do heroics. And will need a lot of heroic gear from the easier heroics to run the harder heroics. And maybe have the initial raid on par with the harder heroics. So the first raid zone of the expansion won't be beaten for 6-8 weeks... but players who want a challenge, can play within the 5-man level, much as raids can be 10-man or 25-man.

I like the idea of a challenge. Where, if we notice a debuff and cure it, the encounter is much easier, yet it is still doable (not death in 6 seconds) without the cure. Where a pack of three mobs might be zerged through, as most of the trash is in the current content; but a five pack will require some crowd control, at least until the heroic is outgeared down the road.

It would be nice if you could run the dungeon on a few different modes, rather then just normal and heroic. To borrow the item levels of today... heroic might drop iLV200, but heroic-level2 might drop iLV219, and heroic-level3 could drop iLV232 etc. With more challenge for each heroic setting, rather then the same iLV200 challenge initially rewarding badges for 200, but eventually giving 232 gear for the same challenge. Basically, have the option for the heroic to be as challenging as say the 10-man of the previous best raid.

[Tyval]

all good points and idea Ualaa. I would be on board for pretty much all of that., progression in heroics would add quite a bit of replay value and fun.

I would probably overall like things a bit easier than you , but then I'm still uncertain on my boxing skills hehe.

Tyval

[Fursphere]

Not to be a doom and gloom guy, but the talent preview for Shaman really has me concerned.

We all know that Wrath = Movement gimmicks. Everywhere there was movement gimmicks, and they only got worse as the expansion aged on.

Now the new lvl 85 spell is Spirit Walk that allows Shaman to cast while moving for 10 seconds.

I read this as: "WARNING - EXTREME MOVEMENT GIMMICKS TO FOLLOW"

For everyone boxing, I hope I'm wrong.

[Velassra]

Not to be a doom and gloom guy, but the talent preview for Shaman really has me concerned.

We all know that Wrath = Movement gimmicks. Everywhere there was movement gimmicks, and they only got worse as the expansion aged on.

Now the new lvl 85 spell is Spirit Walk that allows Shaman to cast while moving for 10 seconds.

I read this as: "WARNING - EXTREME MOVEMENT GIMMICKS TO FOLLOW"

For everyone boxing, I hope I'm wrong.


I'm hoping it's more a pvp related thing. Shaman having to stop to heal seemed to be a complaint on forums....so maybe....Hoping anyway.

[Pycno]

I play for World PVP and Battlegrounds, as well as for doing the old content over again (in easy mode). So Cataclysm will probably not change anything for me except give me new areas to play in with a few new abilities. I dont like the idea of leveling up a second team, so Im hoping for mage and priest to remain a potent combination. The priest class review gave a fun ability (Life grip) and a buff (Power Word: Barrier), hopefully there will be something useful for mage as well. Would love an ability to make portals to any location of choice, or instant group teleport to a location. It would be really cool if mastery would improve all base spells, make Mirror Image create more images etc.

[mrmcgee21]

Rofl man you called the movement gimmiks, priest are getting a "life grip" on a 45 sec cd that pulls friendly players to their location. Should be interesting to see in action.

[Nejcha]

It sounds like the are removing some of the face roll. And adding in new face roll. It's not like having to watch all my screens ever slowed me down ^_^

[daviddoran]

I'm looking forward to cata. Heroics are a snore fest, and I just dont bother doing them any more. I'm geared on 6 toons to pug ICC 25 and am content with that. Id love to see cata being a bit more difficult. Hopefully along with that difficulty comes better rewards. As it is now, wow is a grind fest for gear. Easy to get, just time consuming. Hopefully they can fix this.

Also, all of the changes in the last year have diminished the reason many of us started boxing in the first place. No longer is putting a heroic group together such a chore, no more flying out there, summoning the lazies, dealing with DC'ers, etc etc. Other things like random BGs, dual spec, glyphs, etc etc. All of these things make me ask myself why i box in the first place?

I still plan on boxing cata, probably lvl my shamans in BGs to check out that and leave the starting zones to the gankfest that will undoubtedly ensue (pvp server) Being able to fly in azeroth, see the world revamped (i always thought it was weird that id get a quest to kill hogger, and get rewarded for doing so, and then when i run back, he's still there..... I mean I killed the bastard, why is he back?

[jinkobi]

Also, all of the changes in the last year have diminished the reason many of us started boxing in the first place. No longer is putting a heroic group together such a chore, no more flying out there, summoning the lazies, dealing with DC'ers, etc etc. Other things like random BGs, dual spec, glyphs, etc etc. All of these things make me ask myself why i box in the first place?


You're just spoiled my friend... Have you tried to pug using the heroic dungeon finder? If you're anything but a tank/healer you have to wait a long time in the queue. People still DC/go AFK. Nothing has really changed. How dual specs and Glyphs figure into the equation- well you got me there.

Like the person above me mentioned- expect a movement gimmick fest. Seems like Blizz latches onto an idea and just can't let go... IE: Vehicular combat.

Movement gimmicks are the lamest thing to come to WOW in a long time for me personally. A few here and there no big deal... But when it's every fight like the new ICC 5-mans then they can take it and shove it where the sun doesn't shine. First it isn't perfected with many places it's very difficult to see the ground effect... It's just a lame gimmick and people hate it. That includes people who don't multibox-

Really my biggest concerns with the new expansion is the bringing all the classes HP closer together. For PVP that means very long drawn out fights... Fun for maybe the first 5 mins then it gets to the point who has to take a piss first. Ever watch 2 pallies who know what they're doing duel? Yeah that crap can go on forever.

If fighting another player is going to be a longer drawn out battle. Then mobs will be long drawn out fights as well. If they're trying to make it like LOTRO which seems Blizzards damned and determined goal. You will be dead if you attempt to solo more than 2-3 mobs of your same level.

I'll buy Cat and give it a chance. Sure some fundamental changes could be made to the game as it is now. I just really love how the game at this very moment. We're looking at WOW now after 5 years of polishing and they're tossing a lot of that down the drain. My only minor complaint now is that heroics aren't challenging and we're forced to do them every day. Otherwise I love my pally+druids skills/talents/way gear effects them the way it is right now and hate to see it all scrapped for an untested design.

[Zub]

My only minor complaint now is that heroics aren't challenging and we're forced to do them every day.
Sorry, that made me /lol and /facepalm at the same time.
not sure why people play the game these days

[Ualaa]

Read this one, and thought I'd share...

Set Mode: Friendly-Fire On.
Jump off of cliff.
Life Grip a "friendly".
Cast Levitate.



I'd really like Blizzard to move away from vehicle fights.
I choose to play Pallies, Warlocks, Shamans, Druids and Priests.
Not Trucks, Tanks, Helicopters or Planes.

Aside from that, the direction of the game is fine.
Sure I'd change a few mechanics myself.
But overall the direction seems fine.

[Nejcha]

When Wotlk came out I thought it was going to be full of shit. I made my four shamans my mains and leveled them up from that first midnight release. Did heroics by my self while most my server wasn't even 80 yet. Like in BC people now out gear heroics, and most content. It'll take what blizz throws out at me. Nothing they have done has hurt multiboxing in any way shape or form. I don't expect that Cata will change a damn thing for us, accept make the lazy multiboxers QQ a storm.

[thefunk]

. I don't expect that Cata will change a damn thing for us, accept make the lazy multiboxers QQ a storm.

This. I've watched things like IwT, /click macro, totem shaman changes, IS, Jamba develop from virtually nothing and wonder how people can complain.

[Tonuss]

I'm disliking the disspell mechanics. I still don't think they've hit the sweet spot with debuffs. Best case I ever saw for this type of mechanic was FFXI, where a lot of enemies used various posions and blinds and the like, but almost none of it killed you, and it was at most an annoyance that, if a healer dispeled, was a credit to their skill, not a core mechanic wherein so-and-so gets poisoned and dies because someone else didn't click fast enough.
That's my worry as well. It doesn't sound as if they want to do that, but we'll have to wait and see. I could see a scenario where (for example) a boss will randomly debuff one or more player's DPS, or reduces the tank's aggro generation. This doesn't require you to face a "dispel right away or die" decision, but it does reward players who are alert and react quicker. Faster and more accurate dispelling in those situations will help kill the boss faster, while slow or inattentive players will harm the raid.

From their description of healing, where they want for healers to carefully decide which spells to use as a fight progresses, I see this fitting in. Do you finish casting that heal on the tank, or should you stop it and cure the three players whose DPS just got cut in half? I like the idea that instead of spamming two buttons all fight because keeping everyone topped off is critical, I am faced with a slower pace that makes my decisions more varied and more important.


You're just spoiled my friend... Have you tried to pug using the heroic dungeon finder? If you're anything but a tank/healer you have to wait a long time in the queue. People still DC/go AFK. Nothing has really changed.

As a healer, though, it's a much better system than it used to be, particularly when you just want to log in and bang out a couple of instance runs for any reason. Yeah, you run into bad players and jerks, but I've been pleasantly surprised to find that the ratio is much better than I expected. Then again, the ratio of bad players and jerks goes to zero when you can multibox the dungeon yourself...

[Prega]

the end for me?

-latency: i always play 180/200ms/average values. sometimes get 250ms, sometimes over 300ms. over 300ms is an exercise of patience.lag could kill me:/
-phase shift: directly related with latency. i cant use faster flying mounts. in many areas i have issues. wiping in ICC, new 5 men, and RECOVER bodies from GY, it s a pure proof of tolerance/patience. better avoid wipe;). lose /follow, lose same "phase" are my typical issues. continously , really annoying.
in a new azeroth, with huge areas built with this "phase" difference, im scared: multiple chars will be playable??

what i would like for revamp my interest/will to continue playing?

-Hope strongly new expansion increase account->server->slots.

-Hope new interface changes, offering a direct ingame support about multiple chars movements, something more then my personal special approach about facing/positioning, somenthing less tricky then IWT-CTM.

-get some words on blizzard mainpage, about who we are, what we do and how we generally do it. (i know it s really hard get this one)

personally i really loved new Random Dungeon Finder: pushed by gold collecting objective, i used it and ...maybe abused.

A couple of Beta keys will help a final decision ;)

[blbjtb]

the end for me?

-phase shift: directly related with latency. i cant use faster flying mounts. in many areas i have issues. wiping in ICC, new 5 men, and RECOVER bodies from GY, it s a pure proof of tolerance/patience. better avoid wipe;). lose /follow, lose same "phase" are my typical issues. continously , really annoying.
in a new azeroth, with huge areas built with this "phase" difference, im scared: multiple chars will be playable??

personally i really loved new Random Dungeon Finder: pushed by gold collecting objective, i used it and ...maybe abused.



He Typed it so I didnt have to but this is literally exactly how I feel... I would like to Strangle the person that made the phase tech.

[coldheartid]

As I read thru the first 4 pages of this post I thought of that damned Phased zones and go to the end to add a comment and there it was. I like the fundamental theory behind it, but my first thought was it was like this to make boxing harder cause it is a real pain. When I mixed a group together where some had completed quest series in an area and others had not, WoW I found my self having to fly my group way around that area or solo back to do that zone area.

btw I think if you have more then 10 toons at 80 you should have the option of starting your next toon at lvl 60

[Ualaa]

If crossing a phase line (whether into it, or across it because it has been completed or you're not at that stage yet) was seamless, without the break in follow...

[EsaJunttila]

I'm a starting boxer and I'm exited about Cata! My plan is just to play characters to 80 and when Cata is here, I'm at the same level as others and can perhaps for a sort while be in a leading edge.

[Ualaa]

Each expansion up to this point has been a gear reset.
As in, unlike Everquest I, there is nothing you have equipped at 80th, which is still worth equipping when compared to level 85 heroic/raid drops.

If each of the teams you care to level are 80th at the release of Cataclysm, they're on equal footing whether they dinged 80th the day before release or have been there for over a year... well gear might make the initial zones a bit easier, but they're balanced for single toons, while we run groups and absolutely slaughter the early content.

I'm pretty much very casually adding alchemists to my mix, purely for gold. Have not really logged in to play, aside from transmutes (existing alchemists) in about three weeks. I'd ideally like to level the teams upwards a bit from 68th (minimum for 450 skill is 65th, but transmute specialization is 68th) towards seventy-something, as the minimum level to reach maximum skill will likely increase a bit.

But at this stage, its pretty much just getting toons/teams ready for Cataclysm.

[Tyval]

I would think if you had a team in the current badge/frost gear, would have a bit easier time from 80-85, would be over geared for the normal instances on the way up, and perhaps be able to move to heroics a bit faster. Replace a few slots and be good to go.

Only a 5 lvl difference this time, so it would seem that the high end raid gear would be better than the normal dungeon/quest blues. Course the devs can make this play out anyway they want depending on what iLvl they start the new gear with.

I plan on finishing equpping my first team, working on crafting, and raising a few more so I can mix and match for most effective team when exp comes out. Should have a pali, druid, priest 2x shaman , DK, mage warlock and a couple others to form my team with come cataclysm.

As a side point,

the more i read on the class changes the more I like them. I'm not an expert on all the classes but for the ones I have played significantly I like the direction they are taking. They seem well thought out and with a specific goal. No uneasiness at all really, just low level excitement for the expansion.

T

[HTeam]

1-80 has become too bleak for me to continue. I can't imagine what a new player thinks when they join the game now.

If something major is done (like removing the time required for about 40 levels), then perhaps I'll try again. But right now the grind it too great.
60-70 is empty and boring.
70-80 is a beat down. Pretty cool the first time through it, but plain awful after that.

This, just when they seem to have found a good balance up at the top end, letting new items in for the trailblazers and allowing everyone else who puts in some time to stay relatively close. It's no longer a matter of raiders having tier2 epics vs non raiders having level 55 blues.

[Tdog]

These basic questions have been asked with every single expansion and will continue to be asked with every single expansion. The world (of warcraft) will end when the world (of warcraft) ends :P Just enjoy the good times for now.

[Moorea]

I'm curious what they'll do to make 70-80 bearable in cata - as while I'm excited to re-do 1-60 without RAF thanks to new races, zones and quests - 60-70 is quite fast with xp curve and flying (but will be a bore to redo as is) - but 71-80 is just terrible and so slow right now (which is why my new teams are stuck around level 72)

[Velassra]

I would assume they would speed 70-80 up abit....may even speed up under 70 again (but w/ new races maybe not).
But I agree, my shaman are in Outlands right now....I'm not looking forwatrd to NR leveling. Idk, I find it extremely painful.
I may do Isle of QD for a level, then level in outland heroics for a cpl more, just to avoid NR some.

[pinotnoir]

Not sure who was saying BC heroics were hard. Actually they were pretty easy because you can do them with 5 shaman. Using 5 shaman to clear heroics when LK was new was impossible. You can do it now with 232 gear but trying to do the same in blues would not work when LK came out. The guys in BC who had a tank 3dps and healer did heroics like they were nothing. I think all these changes to mechanics are going to make boxing much harder to do. If it turns out to suck I guess it would be time to cancel the accounts and move on.

[Ualaa]

Shortly into each previous expansion, they've reduced the experience required per level for the previous content by 30%.
This was true for classic content, in Burning Crusade, and for BC content in Wrath of the Lich King.
I would assume this will be true for WotLK content in Cataclysm.

They have stated the BoA +exp heirlooms will work in Cataclysm, but only for 1st to 80th content, not 81st to 85th... and that realm firsts will not be awarded to toons who have used the BoA's.
Under the class/race combinations, Death Knights are listed for both Goblins and Worgen, but Blizz has also said they will not be allowed to make DK's initially.

I'd assume the 30% reduction will go in, probably the first patch after Cataclysm release. Combine that with the two BoA items for experience, and we have Wrath content in half the time it is now.

[Iceorbz]

I think that there are ways to make new content that is challenging, even for those who have decent gear. I think Heroic Halls of Reflection is a perfect example of that. My guys were in full EoT/EoF gear (my Paladin in ICC 10/25 gear) and that place was STILL hard as hell for me.

Yes, with the gear that is available now, you can sleep through 95% of the Heroics, but when I first started running heroics with a fresh team of 80s, it was challenging, and at times, downright impossible. I can recall many a nights yelling and cursing at my screen because I couldnt kill one boss or another, or kept wiping on trash in Old Kingdom. But over time, as I started grinding out Emblems of Heroism and getting better gear, it got a little easier, but still fun as hell.

Then after I was able to clear all the Heroics, there was 'Glory of the Hero' staring me in the face, which took me several more months.

So basically, I think the challenge should be in the content, not making classes weaker.

Even with raids. In the beginning we had Naxx, but then came Ulduar. So we had a raid that could be PUG'ed, and then a raid that was hard as f**k! Though I never set foot into Ulduar myself until after ICC was already out, I didnt mind the fact that they created raid content for the hardcore nerds. I was more than happy to continue hitting Naxx and running Heroics.

Basically, I think they may be catering towards the hardcore audience a little too much. But like everyone has been saying, we wont really know until the content is actually out.

And I'm sure if they do something drastic that alienates a majority of players, they'll be quick to go back and fix it.

I spent 1500 gold in repairs doing Heroic ToC when it first came out. So I know the feeling of some shit being hard... I spent another 2000 and some change in Heroic PoS and Heroic HoR when they also first came out.

[mrmcgee21]

BC heroics got progressively nerfed throughout the xpac, and the people who ran 5 shamans through them were in full epic pvp gear ( that was way over budgeted for the content ). If you did the original BC heroics you would definitely not say they were easier than LK ones, yes after they nerfed the shit out of them and started handing out epics like candy people facerolled them just like in LK. I'm sure you can 5 shaman LK heroics now as well due to epics being much more available.

The difference is, LK heroics were never a challenge right from the start. Bc heroics got turned into what Lk heroics are, which I guess is just their general 5 man content design now which really makes me sad, the only challenging content in the game now are 10-25 man hard mode raids and high end pvp. I love running 5 man dungeons but when they are this easy ( even on "hard mode" ) its really disappointing and gets boring much faster.

[Tdog]

BC heroics got progressively nerfed throughout the xpac, and the people who ran 5 shamans through them were in full epic pvp gear ( that was way over budgeted for the content ). If you did the original BC heroics you would definitely not say they were easier than LK ones, yes after they nerfed the shit out of them and started handing out epics like candy people facerolled them just like in LK. I'm sure you can 5 shaman LK heroics now as well due to epics being much more available.

The difference is, LK heroics were never a challenge right from the start. Bc heroics got turned into what Lk heroics are, which I guess is just their general 5 man content design now which really makes me sad, the only challenging content in the game now are 10-25 man hard mode raids and high end pvp. I love running 5 man dungeons but when they are this easy ( even on "hard mode" ) its really disappointing and gets boring much faster.Agreed. I actually remember comparing the orignal BC Heroics to "5 man raiding" as you had to have a plan to the pulls, not just run through them blindly w/o thinking about it. But by the middle of BC's exsistence that changed pretty drastically.

[pinotnoir]

LK Heroics were tough after it released. I recall many frustrating attempts before my guys got good enough gear to do them easy. They have been nerfed over the time LK has been out. And yes BC heroics were easy even at the start because you could get the PVP gear like you said and breeze through them. The pvp gear was so good you really didnt need any drops from the BC heroics. The only reason I had to plan pulls in BC was becauses I used 5 shaman and didnt have a tank.

[Fat Tire]

God I loved doing MT with 5 shamans. I was inspired by Vndyree(I think) making that amazing video.