DPS vs Damage done

[Kang]

Quick question about DPS versus damage done, which is more important in a raid for a dps class? The reason I ask is that I tend to be high on the damage done list, but not very high on the dps. Is this common for a fury warr? Just curious.

[Shodokan]

Quick question about DPS versus damage done, which is more important in a raid for a dps class? The reason I ask is that I tend to be high on the damage done list, but not very high on the dps. Is this common for a fury warr? Just curious.

Dps is based on the uptime of your damage. Meaning how often you are swinging. If there is a lot of movement required it can make your DPS go down. Casters for the most part have higher burst damage and can do more damage per second than melee with few exceptions (single target 100% arp blood dk for example) So in the time it takes you to do 2 swings and a special... an arcane mage has already got 4 stacks of arcane blast and is about to unleash missiles.

In short. Fury warriors don't do much dps (compared to other classes) but they do lots of damage. Even one of the best warriors in the world (arrarat or blood legion) doesn't even top DPS meters.

[Svpernova09]

Quick question about DPS versus damage done, which is more important in a raid for a dps class? The reason I ask is that I tend to be high on the damage done list, but not very high on the dps. Is this common for a fury warr? Just curious.

In a raid environment DPS > Damage done. Make sure you're looking at Boss DPS as well, and then further by tank and spank VS movement fights. DPS will vary. DPS on trash is laughable, even in raids since it's usually an aoe fest.

As a raid leader, I often never look at damage done and most often focus on DPS. Even as a healer I'm looking at DPS to see where the raid is falling short.


Dps is based on the uptime of your damage. Meaning how often you are swinging. If there is a lot of movement required it can make your DPS go down. Casters for the most part have higher burst damage and can do more damage per second than melee with few exceptions (single target 100% arp blood dk for example) So in the time it takes you to do 2 swings and a special... an arcane mage has already got 4 stacks of arcane blast and is about to unleash missiles.

In short. Fury warriors don't do much dps (compared to other classes) but they do lots of damage. Even one of the best warriors in the world (arrarat or blood legion) doesn't even top DPS meters.


http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Icecrown_Citadel/Deathbringer_Saurfang/25N/dps/

3 Fury warriors in the top 25 on a tank + spank melee fight = Fury warriors DPS is pretty good. (Considering the abundance of rogues)

[Ughmahedhurtz]

Quick question about DPS versus damage done, which is more important in a raid for a dps class? The reason I ask is that I tend to be high on the damage done list, but not very high on the dps. Is this common for a fury warr? Just curious.

Damage done is the sum of all your damage over a certain fight/time period.

DPS is calculated (on recount, skada, etc.) by stopping the "stopwatch" timer when a person stops attacking. So it only averages damage across how much time you spend actually doing something to the boss. For movement-heavy fights, the accuracy of DPS meters largely depends on how spread out the movement phases are. As an example, for a fight where you have to move every 3 seconds, the DPS will be heavily skewed because the meters don't have time to fall out of "uptime" where for a fight where you move once every 30 seconds, it will be much more accurate.

So, to answer your question, nobody should blame you for not DPSing when you're running out of the fire/goo/shadow/earthquake/cave-in/etc. so the only number that matters is DPS.

Much like gearscore, DPS meters should be used intelligently and not relied upon as an exact measure of effectiveness.

[Maxion]

Note that for classes that leave a dot on the boss for a while after they stop attacking, their dps will go down as it ticks away while they are not actually doing any active dps. For situations where you have to stop periodically during the fight to move around or such anyway.

[Shodokan]

In a raid environment DPS > Damage done. Make sure you're looking at Boss DPS as well, and then further by tank and spank VS movement fights. DPS will vary. DPS on trash is laughable, even in raids since it's usually an aoe fest.

As a raid leader, I often never look at damage done and most often focus on DPS. Even as a healer I'm looking at DPS to see where the raid is falling short.




http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Icecrown_Citadel/Deathbringer_Saurfang/25N/dps/

3 Fury warriors in the top 25 on a tank + spank melee fight = Fury warriors DPS is pretty good. (Considering the abundance of rogues)

There are surely ways to get that high DPS. But on tank and spank fights ANYTHING can get top dps if their procs go off correctly (see some boomkin wws etc). But even the best warriors in the world know it highly is based on RNG of their insta slam procs and their ability to keep heroic strike up for every swing depending on how much DPS they get. Mostly they hover between 10 and 12k for the best in the world on tank and spank fights but this can obviously fluctuate as seen above with some doing around 13k etc. Same goes for arcane mages.... if they get tons of lucky procs of missile barrage they are going to get a top WWS as well (not that they need it).

[Svpernova09]

There are surely ways to get that high DPS. But on tank and spank fights ANYTHING can get top dps if their procs go off correctly (see some boomkin wws etc). But even the best warriors in the world know it highly is based on RNG of their insta slam procs and their ability to keep heroic strike up for every swing depending on how much DPS they get. Mostly they hover between 10 and 12k for the best in the world on tank and spank fights but this can obviously fluctuate as seen above with some doing around 13k etc. Same goes for arcane mages.... if they get tons of lucky procs of missile barrage they are going to get a top WWS as well (not that they need it).

I agree, chart topping DPS can be very proc based.

[Littleburst]

They're both usefull.

Mage doing 10k dps but dies half way in the fight, did do nice dps but overall his dps was 5k.

Then a warlock who does even 6k dps still did more damage.

So it's really dependant. The mage shows he knows how to dps and the warlock shows he knows the fight but isn't that effective dpswise.

[Greythan]

Why is DPS the only measure here? Damage done is, after all, the final measure of how a boss dies. If a casting class has to constantly move to avoid damage and ends up with a higher DPS but lower damage done than a melee class who is able to maintain a constant rate of attack (hypothetical) ...... the melee was at least as valuable.

Stated another way, if the highest DPS isn't the highest damage done then there was a throughput issue with the high DPS toon (ran out of mana, had to move more than other classes, whatever). Now, if you are lowest in DPS and damage done.... you were the weak link. ;)

[Zal]

Personally i look at dmg done before dps when i'm running my raids simply because, like littleburst said, if someone pulls 10k dps but dies instantly well sucks for them and they helped the raid for all of a second. Whereas dmg done is... well, just that.
Someone pulling 5k dps but does 500k dmg > someone that does 10k dps but does 20k dmg

[Stealthy]

Why is DPS the only measure here? Damage done is, after all, the final measure of how a boss dies. If a casting class has to constantly move to avoid damage and ends up with a higher DPS but lower damage done than a melee class who is able to maintain a constant rate of attack (hypothetical) ...... the melee was at least as valuable.

Stated another way, if the highest DPS isn't the highest damage done then there was a throughput issue with the high DPS toon (ran out of mana, had to move more than other classes, whatever). Now, if you are lowest in DPS and damage done.... you were the weak link. ;)

DPS is the primary measure because many raid bosses have an enrage timer or similar mechanic which essentially makes the fight boil down to a DPS race to beat the timer. It's also a good way to see who is pulling their weight vs the gear they are wearing. There are, of course, some encounters that will favour a particular class due to movement, resistances, etc - but a good raid leader should be aware of this and judge performance accordingly.

Cheers,
S.

[daviddoran]

On my recount, I look at Damage done, which also shows DPS next to it. Generally the numbers correlate, and the top DPS is the top damage done. DPS tends to be more spikey, where damage done is more stable.

[Littleburst]

DPS is the primary measure because many raid bosses have an enrage timer or similar mechanic which essentially makes the fight boil down to a DPS race to beat the timer. It's also a good way to see who is pulling their weight vs the gear they are wearing. There are, of course, some encounters that will favour a particular class due to movement, resistances, etc - but a good raid leader should be aware of this and judge performance accordingly.

Cheers,
S.

I have to disagree, if possible. If you got a whole raid doing 12k dps but fail to move out of any aoe damage and die then your boss isn't gonna die.

I think DPS or damage done is subjective, it depends on how you look at it.

[Shodokan]

I have to disagree, if possible. If you got a whole raid doing 12k dps but fail to move out of any aoe damage and die then your boss isn't gonna die.

I think DPS or damage done is subjective, it depends on how you look at it.

I think you missed his point. He is saying that taking things into consideration like movement etc is required. Doing 12k dps standing there in void zones is not going to down anything other than tank and spank fights with no real extra mechanics (patchwork). The more DPS someone is doing (regardless of if there is movement) the higher the chance you are likely to succeed. For example if a rogue maintains 12k dps on a tank and spank, but can still maintain 10k on a fight with lots of movement (grobbulus for example). The fights are based around these mechanics and if you don't have enough DPS to beat an enrage timer (regardless of if there is movement or not) you will fail. Yes your damage done can out-weigh the DPs you do but the fact of the matter is that without the required damage output regardless of HOW you measure it then you won't complete the task at hand.

[Littleburst]

I think you missed his point. He is saying that taking things into consideration like movement etc is required. Doing 12k dps standing there in void zones is not going to down anything other than tank and spank fights with no real extra mechanics (patchwork). The more DPS someone is doing (regardless of if there is movement) the higher the chance you are likely to succeed. For example if a rogue maintains 12k dps on a tank and spank, but can still maintain 10k on a fight with lots of movement (grobbulus for example). The fights are based around these mechanics and if you don't have enough DPS to beat an enrage timer (regardless of if there is movement or not) you will fail. Yes your damage done can out-weigh the DPs you do but the fact of the matter is that without the required damage output regardless of HOW you measure it then you won't complete the task at hand.

So if you take DPS and take movement etc in account then the person topping damage done adds most to the raid. We all agree on this and that was what i ment. You can't ignore dps for this though. So it's a stat you want to take in consideration aswell.

so like i said: it depends on how you look at it.

[Greythan]

Yeah, a lot of saying the same thing going on now. I just took a little exception to the notion: "DPS is everything, damage done is nothing". Obviously, posting big numbers by both measures is what counts as that means you did a ton of damage and you did it fast. ;)

[Zaelar]

DPS on recount is about the same as gearscore, it's a quick overview but is mostly irrelevant. The only time you want to look at dps instead of damage done is when comparing two people that died at different times. As was said, dot classes get shafted on dps meters for no good reason when movement is involved. You don't down bosses before enrage by having high recount dps, you do it by damage done. Having a raid that only attacks when their cooldowns are up will give you more recount dps, but you'll still hit enrage. True dps is damage done/fight length, not what recount gives.

[Ualaa]

I'd rather have a DPS who did 150k damage, then one who did 90k damage, even if the 90k damage DPS had significantly higher dps.

Especially if damage dealt is consistently higher, across multiple/all encounters.

But they're both measurements of essentially the same thing, damage output.

[Zub]

i see alot of people talking about DPS, but i believe most have wrong numbers for this.
recount for example will only give you a real-time view of the dps, and all dps summaries are flawed by design (movement, dots ticking, aoes, etc)

as stated above, the only good measure of DPS is to take the Damage Done, and divide it by the fight length.
Obviously you'll see here that the higher the damage done, the higher the dps.

[Ualaa]

If you define DPS as damage dealt divided by the length of time the boss was in combat...

Then... damage dealt = the DPS order for the fight.
And... DPS is a measurement of how much damage was dealt up to the point where someone died prior to the battle ending.

Worldofraids or Wowwebstats are much better then Recount, for meters.
Of course, you cannot read them in game.

[Gomotron]

Call me a noob, but I find it hilarious that a single character can put out more DPS than my entire team over the course of a full 3 minutes.

[thefunk]

slightly off-topic:

Does the same analogy work with drinking beer? As in, drinks per second more valuable than total drinks drunk?

[Zaelar]

No. For example, in a 2 minute fight if you do 360000 damage it doesn't matter if it's spread out or all in one place. In a 2 hour drinking session if you drink a 6-pack in the last 10 minutes you'll be more drunk than if you drank a can every 20 minutes.

[thefunk]

No. For example, in a 2 minute fight if you do 360000 damage it doesn't matter if it's spread out or all in one place. In a 2 hour drinking session if you drink a 6-pack in the last 10 minutes you'll be more drunk than if you drank a can every 20 minutes.

So you could argue that DPSing at the right time can be more important, depending on how plastered you get or at which phase of the fight you are. Then again, at that stage hitting any key is a result

[Kang]

slightly off-topic:

Does the same analogy work with drinking beer? As in, drinks per second more valuable than total drinks drunk?

After many years of research, I can say DoTs > burst DPS in this scenario. If your DPS is too bursty, it could result in a wipe from over aggro. Of course, you won't know it's a wipe until you wake up the next morning on the front porch with no pants on and your girlfriend really pissed at you.

[thedreameater]

In a raid environment DPS > Damage done. Make sure you're looking at Boss DPS as well, and then further by tank and spank VS movement fights. DPS will vary. DPS on trash is laughable, even in raids since it's usually an aoe fest.

As a raid leader, I often never look at damage done and most often focus on DPS. Even as a healer I'm looking at DPS to see where the raid is falling short.




http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Icecrown_Citadel/Deathbringer_Saurfang/25N/dps/

3 Fury warriors in the top 25 on a tank + spank melee fight = Fury warriors DPS is pretty good. (Considering the abundance of rogues)

Really! There are many players who can top DPS but don't get out of the fire. I care about damage done with my raids and never look at dps. In recount, damage done shows dps anyway.

[Littleburst]

After many years of research, I can say DoTs > burst DPS in this scenario. If your DPS is too bursty, it could result in a wipe from over aggro. Of course, you won't know it's a wipe until you wake up the next morning on the front porch with no pants on and your girlfriend really pissed at you.


lol :D

[Zaelar]

So you could argue that DPSing at the right time can be more important, depending on how plastered you get or at which phase of the fight you are. Then again, at that stage hitting any key is a result

In a lot of fights(before they're on farm) it's worth sacrificing some overall dps for getting higher dps in a specific phase, just like saving your beer for when your friends are there is better than getting drunk alone.

[alcattle]

In a lot of fights(before they're on farm) it's worth sacrificing some overall dps for getting higher dps in a specific phase, just like saving your beer for when your friends are there is better than getting drunk alone.
You also want to finish your beer when friends are around so they will buy the next round :D