Long time coming

[remanz]

Well. the grind was so long. I almost forgot what my end goal was. I've been a boxer for quite a long time. Watching Xzin, Xbox, Ellay, all these guys doing amazing things in pvp through out the years. And for the first time, I was able to accomplish something for myself, reaching 1800 rating in arena.

My goal for WotLK was purely PVP. Started out with 5 shamans. Got close to 1800 a few times, but ultimately came up short. Then my healer friend went away from PVP so I was pretty much stuck. Then Kromtor really openned my eyes with this combo. So here I am, almost 4 months 20 days later since I started lvling this team. Finally got to where I wanted, feeling empty. lol


http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/3449/wowscrnshot022310194137.jpg

[remanz]

While leaving the strategies and tatics discussion to the arena section, I do have a few things to say about DK + 4 Rets here.

1. It is a gimmick team. The more I play this combo against some teams, the slimer the chance of winning becomes.
2. Out of all the matches I've played, I have 0 rez from the opposing team. and All of them are under 4 mins played. (this tells a great deal about this team).
3. Not really scaleble in terms of skills for me. I played my last 50 matches pretty much the same way as my first 50 matches. I didn't improve my execution too much.
4. The game for arena was 80% preparation, which is outside of arena, where the actual playing was only 20%. and For the record (explaining point#3), I did twick my setups quite a bit through out those matches.
5. All games were played by me alone. (this along with #2 are the only advantages of this team)
6. Still kudos to Kromtor for pioneering this combo.

[Stealthy]

Gratz mate...lookin' pimp!!

[Zugdud]

Congrats Remanz! Epic accomplishment with you playing 100% of the team, now I think it's time to upgrade those shoulders next ;)

/salute

[Shabu42]

Really looks epic :D, especially with the WG shoulders

[Firstcow]

What do you guys think about a warrior + 4 paladins? A lot of high rated teams have 2 healers and it's really hard to cc both at the same time to land a sure kill. A warrior could help with mortal strike and the fear. Also unrelenting assault can reduce healing even more. Do you think this can work?

[Ualaa]

The warrior gets you Mortal Strike, which can be huge.
But you lose the melee haste, which probably adds to more damage then Mortal Strike prevents heals.

And then you lose Death Grip + Snare, which is a large portion of the DK's strength on the team.

[heyaz]

Grats man.

As far as a gimmick team, do you think it's any less of a gimmick than quad shaman?

[remanz]

Grats man.

As far as a gimmick team, do you think it's any less of a gimmick than quad shaman?

There are about the same to my eyes. Only because shamans were out there for too long, and also with you and other veteran shaman boxers doing a great job educating the world with your high level arena play, people know more about shamans than melees. So it seems like dk+4rets are more of a gimmick than shamans as of right now. I am not too confident after people all learn about this combo.

[Eloxy]

GJ M8!

Always a pleasure to see fellow boxers achieve their goals in pvp =)

[zenga]

The warrior gets you Mortal Strike, which can be huge.
But you lose the melee haste, which probably adds to more damage then Mortal Strike prevents heals.

And then you lose Death Grip + Snare, which is a large portion of the DK's strength on the team.

how about leading the warrior, 3 rets & a dk?

[asonimie]

Congratz Remanz!!

Gimmick? Maybe, but my opinion is - Don't be too sure of the weaknesses of this team. This comp has more room for improvement than shamans by far, which is easily overlooked. Although I admit most games usually seem like a spam-fest cluster-f***, on paper there are 1000 things I could do differently (haven't even touched focus targets yet). Also, you've had QDs for a weapon which are ok, but this team is 5x entirely weapon dependant and I believe that success will increase greatly with the new bloated 264 weapons.

Keep truckin! I think you'll find 2200 is just around the corner with those new babies :)

[Fat Tire]

congrats


I expect alot of these post in the coming weeks. :D

[Zappy]

Also, you've had QDs for a weapon which are ok, but this team is 5x entirely weapon dependant and I believe that success will increase greatly with the new bloated 264 weapons.

This!

I'm waiting to hear how your matches go over this next week as those weapons will hit like a truck. :D

[Ellay]

Kind of ironic but I also felt the same way about this team. It felt very gimmicking to me, more so than the Shamans. After several matches I would try and think about what I can improve on, what I could change on my tactics and while you can say Shamans are one dimensional - this combo is even more so.

With the Shamans I could always find a strat to make it smoother, maybe it was the sense of more control of your surroundings I'm not sure, but getting kited by 1 Mage and 2 healers while your entire team is up and lose is quite possibly one of the most frustrating experiences in Arena.

I think getting those 1800 weapons will change things greatly for you, and I love this team in the PvE realm but from what it seems Shaman may still reign supreme after the changes to resil.

[Firstcow]

The warrior gets you Mortal Strike, which can be huge.
But you lose the melee haste, which probably adds to more damage then Mortal Strike prevents heals.

And then you lose Death Grip + Snare, which is a large portion of the DK's strength on the team.

I'm not sure why you say the melee haste could add up more than what you prevent with MS. The 20% melee haste only affects white hits, and the white hits are small percentage of the paladin damange. MS cuts healing in half on that target, meaning your dps on that target increases by 100%. Or am I missing something here?

The lack of death grip is mitigated by charge. And the snare is hamstring. The warrior has less survivabilty, but if you manage to get one MS up and a hamstring then you bladestorm with the warrior and shitstorm with the pallies.

Well, I guess theory is theory, we need to see how it works in practice.

[suprafro]

@firstcow, Kromtors origional lineup was actually warrior + 4x rets, he ended up swapping the warrior out for his DK before his ratings skyrocketed to 1800 and beyond. I recall from his origional 5s thread that he thought both classes had their advantages, but he preferred the DK over the warrior and never tried both as they were on the same account

Anyway sorry for the derail, big gz to Remanz!!:D:D

[remanz]

I'm not sure why you say the melee haste could add up more than what you prevent with MS. The 20% melee haste only affects white hits, and the white hits are small percentage of the paladin damange. MS cuts healing in half on that target, meaning your dps on that target increases by 100%. Or am I missing something here?

The lack of death grip is mitigated by charge. And the snare is hamstring. The warrior has less survivabilty, but if you manage to get one MS up and a hamstring then you bladestorm with the warrior and shitstorm with the pallies.

Well, I guess theory is theory, we need to see how it works in practice.

Killing is not a main problem for this team. If the target is standing there and let you whack him, no way he can live. DK have a few (a lot actually) things over a warrior. 10% AP buff on 5. Str + Agi buff. Melee haste buff (warrior only got a HP buff, the AP shout does not stack with Might). Abilitiy to regen HP with death strike, rune tap. Better CC, Better snare (Chains of Ice is a range snare for 90%), Better Interrupt, Range silience. and Death Grip > Charge for this team. Warrior charge. Paladins sitll have to run to the target. Remeber paladins make the kill, not the warrior. Charging over doesn't make the kill, if your paladin can't get near the target (snared). So in reality, MS is all a warrior got. Blade storm only works against , huh, myself (or other boxers).

DK is soaking a ton of damage for me. I am not too sure if an arm warrior can take the beating from those wizards.

I've talked about this before. I think If anything, an enhancement shaman can rival DK as a lead, not an arm warrior.

[heyaz]

I don't think any other melee comes close. Most people focus on the snares and range closers, but there is a hell of a lot more, some of which have been mentioned but here's my list:

1. They can soak up damage like no other melee class. With AMS, IBF, and Vampiric blood (which will pop you to 50k hp in proper gear) your dk can survive being focused (since everyone goes straight for them).
2. Fear and sap immunity
3. Abomination's might and icy talons. Although I'm not completely sold on icy talons.
4. Hungering cold - another nice aoe cc. It's not the best, but it's better than the 1 terrible cc us shaman groups have
5. Best ranged interrupt you're going to get. A not so bad melee interrupt either

[Shodokan]

I don't think any other melee comes close. Most people focus on the snares and range closers, but there is a hell of a lot more, some of which have been mentioned but here's my list:

1. They can soak up damage like no other melee class. With AMS, IBF, and Vampiric blood (which will pop you to 50k hp in proper gear) your dk can survive being focused (since everyone goes straight for them).
2. Fear and sap immunity
3. Abomination's might and icy talons. Although I'm not completely sold on icy talons.
4. Hungering cold - another nice aoe cc. It's not the best, but it's better than the 1 terrible cc us shaman groups have
5. Best ranged interrupt you're going to get. A not so bad melee interrupt either

Don't forget lichborn = you are now undead and can heal yourself some more with your death coils, as well as pet sacrifice for 50% of your life back.

[remanz]

I think without fully maxed on armor + weapon + professions, it is really hard to tell what works or not. It seems like NOT long ago when I was struggling to bring down 1 restore druid in a 5 vs 1 battle, where he heals himself until OOM. And 50,000 gold after, he went down in 2 seconds.

The reason I throw out the enhance idea is that it does seem to address some of the issues DK + 4 rets have , sacrificing some survial along the way. I am a huge fan of enhancement shaman's

Earthbind AOE snare + remove snare on group
Bloodlust
Purge
and the Wolf Pack is very intimidating. Suits this group's overall tone very well.

[asonimie]

Kind of ironic but I also felt the same way about this team. It felt very gimmicking to me, more so than the Shamans. After several matches I would try and think about what I can improve on, what I could change on my tactics and while you can say Shamans are one dimensional - this combo is even more so.

With the Shamans I could always find a strat to make it smoother, maybe it was the sense of more control of your surroundings I'm not sure, but getting kited by 1 Mage and 2 healers while your entire team is up and lose is quite possibly one of the most frustrating experiences in Arena.

I think getting those 1800 weapons will change things greatly for you, and I love this team in the PvE realm but from what it seems Shaman may still reign supreme after the changes to resil.

They aren't one dimensional and none of the top shaman boxers feel that way I'm sure. The problem with shamans is they are prolly the EASIEST class to halt their dps. Facing / Stuns / Silence / Re-alignment time etc. Yes, shamans can heal and have good utility, but If you can't kill you shouldn't even try arguing their other facets. A good opponent with any number of classes can chain CC on you indefinitely, reducing your damage to zero for extended periods of time. And please nobody argue with the usual "instant LvB blah blah." It is more than easy to mitigate 75k instant damage down to a survivable 30k. I personally worked very hard on different ways to best utilize EM LVB, and in the end I was still very disappointed with it vs. all the immunities out there. And 1 dead target doesn't guarantee a win playing with mana hungry elemental shamans. Most teams give up after a couple teammates die, but I've had 2 people (healer + dps) kite and run my mana dry before, then proceed to kill my priest or worse, rez up. That's a major weakness.

Resilience change? It hurts shamans just as much or more than other comps, considering now our lightning spam prolly entered the healable zone now with 15% more reduced dmg. Also, shamans also do not benefit as much from bloated season 8 melee dmg which scales higher than spell dmg in arena. The feel of the DK / Ret comp is "offensive, driving and controlling", whereas the shamans are "defensive and try to avoid being controlled." I much prefer being the aggressor. Sitting in totem camp waiting for the wiz cleave to get their timing on you sucks, and I don't want that weakness over my head again.

The "control of the fight" is definitely more difficult now, not having totem camp or much range, but I believe there are ways to make up for it. While difficult, the DK Rets have more room for improvement, as in managing repents, silences, grip/strangulates, focus target switches, staying alive longer passively etc.

[remanz]

Drawing comparison between dk+rets with shamans is ok. Just different play style. Seems like shamans are doing well right now, which is only fair since the shaman team have a healer who has the shamans' back. Oh my lava burst didn't make the kill. Priest is still alive. we can do this again. There are more back and forth in the battle.

DK + 4 Rets are more like "bam ! bam ! bam ! bam!" then it is over. Garbage time. I am either cleaning up or getting cleaned up. Not a bad thing, some people prefer this way, including me. And this "bam bam" style blows up in BGs. The raw killing power is much greater than shamans. Kill 5 people, my team is fresh as new to move on to the next 5 people. Stopped by nothing, and truly a killing machine. Its like PVE 5 man heroic, melees just do it quicker. If killing is the objective, I don't see any other combo beats this at the moment. But unfortunately, at least half of the BGs' objectives are not based on killing.

[Èlemental]

I'm looking into starting one of these teams remanz and you seem to know your stuff about it. Was the leveling process hard for you, or did it just kind of "Flow" by?

[remanz]

I'm looking into starting one of these teams remanz and you seem to know your stuff about it. Was the leveling process hard for you, or did it just kind of "Flow" by?

Oh leveling. It helps greatly where you have a level 80 5 man team already. Especially, if you got a lvl 80 tankdin.

Prepare 4 heirloom shoulder + chest. Send them over to the paladins.
Quest level 1-8. No trick here just do questing and killing some mobs with 4 paladins.
8-10. RFC. Boosting with level 80 paladin
10-20. SFK. Boosting with level 80 paladin
20-40. SM. Boosting with level 80 paladin
40-58. Strat. Boosting with .... you know what. I think Heyaz got a great video on how to do it with 1 pull.

58 + . go to outland. Wait there.
Create a new DK. starting at level 55. Do all the quest and get him to lvl 58.

At this point, there are no more boosting for me since DK and lvl 80 paladin are on the same account. I quest all the way from 58-80. Mixing some BGs. no tricks.

Others might have better ways. But this is how I did it.

Note this is the No RAF lvling route. With RAF, your 1-60 will be much quicker. and the boosting was supremely boring, no doubt. Only one thing keeps me going-that was watching Kromtor's rating skyrocketd around that time.

[Èlemental]

I sadly only have an 80 shaman team, no tank. I could rez my 80 DK and faction change him to orc and have him Powerlevel my guys. But idk, seems like it would take a while. Yet the reward seems great! :O