Mage question

[crowdx]

Hi all,
so I see all the time people running 3 shamans, warlocks etc and really do not see many people running multiple mages? I have a single mage which really nukes heroics, why would I not want to add another mage or even two more? Is it simply the lack of buffs to the group or is there something else I am missing?
All insight welcome :)

[Siaea]

The main reason I haven't made a multiple mage team is that their main AoE (Blizzard) is mouse targeted. People on here have gotten it to work, but to me it just seems too clunky. Also, multiple shaman, as cliche as it has become, can put out the pain. That, and they can self rez, heal, rez others, take a beating better than cloth wearers, have mobility in PvP (instant Ghost Wolf), and something else...Twenty Totems!

Don't get me wrong, the most fun I've ever had in PvP was with my mage pre-TBC, but for me, multiple shaman bring too much to the table.

[genocyde]

I run 4 mages in PvP and 2-3 mages in Heroics. They are extremely powerful. IMO they have among the highest DPS you can get on a multiboxed character and they really dish out the punishment in PvP. They are extremely mobile damage dealers as they have the most high damage instant spells. They are a little weak on the defensive side but I haven't had many problems in WG or BG's.

They are very powerful for AoE as well. Blizzard is not that hard to coordinate but they're real power lies in Arcane Explosion. 5-7k per GCD AoE while running can chew up large groups pretty fast.

I'll be starting Arena when season 8 begins here. I'm out to prove a mage team can compete to some level. I expect to miss out on the 2k+ range though. 1st season + running my own healer + starting out with trash PvP gear = you gotta start somewhere :)

[crowdx]

Well I seldom use AoE on my teams, my locks and mage can do quite a bit of damage with AoE and ISBoxer which can make AoE very usable, in general I single target mobs and burn them down that way.
I agree with mail on a shaman it does make them more robust and the totems give a lot of passive dps,resists and heals.
With my arcane I just see a noticable dps lift, once arcane barrage procs he can be very deadly and it does seem at least once on each mob it procs and the mobs health bar drops like a stone lol.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

The main problem is that mages lack group utility for heroics. Basically, all you get is CC, long-cooldown spell interrupts, +/- magic dmg and remove curse. Consider the wealth of utility you get with shaman setups or multiclass setups. Resists, anti-fear, auto-poison/disease-cleanse, wipe-prevention, AoE heals, full-spectrum resists, high-utility/dmg pets, taunt pets, speed, all sorts of good things.

Back in the day, there were a few boxers that ran mage setups. Just not so many these days because shaman groups have proven so much more effective in a wide range of situations.

[crowdx]

So really buffs are what is the edge with shammies or multiclass groups :)
I know the one edge my locks have over the mage is very little down time, lifetap , quick heal and they are back to full power in seconds, whereas mages do have some more downtime.
Having said that, I do like that they bring food LOL

[gitcho]

I've run a pally,disc priest, 3x arcane mage for a long time ... recently subbed out 2 mages for a shaman and druid specifically for all the buffs, but am considering putting the 2 mages back for my heroic runs. My mage can double the DPS of all my other same-geared toons in heroics when spamming arcane blast ... crazy amounts of short-term DPS - easily long enough for heroics. If you just want to burn through heroics and aren't worried about gearing other toons, arcane mages will easily out-dps any other class by a good margin with AB spam. The issue with ground-target AOE was the primary reason I switched to ISboxer, and now I use it all the time ... If you want to raid or PVP, that's another story ....

[genocyde]

The main problem is that mages lack group utility for heroics. Basically, all you get is CC, long-cooldown spell interrupts, +/- magic dmg and remove curse. Consider the wealth of utility you get with shaman setups or multiclass setups. Resists, anti-fear, auto-poison/disease-cleanse, wipe-prevention, AoE heals, full-spectrum resists, high-utility/dmg pets, taunt pets, speed, all sorts of good things.

I guess I don't see my team lacking any of these because I run either pally tank, disc priest, 3 mages or druid tank, disc priest, 3mages. So I've got all the cleanses, anti fear, some of the best resists a character can get, aoe, and the significantly higher damage output that mages bring.

Frankly, in heroics, I don't see the need for any of that junk. I can clear any heroic with significant speed and no deaths and not sweat it. I've even been debating trying some heroics with 4x mage and just a tank or healer. Only problem is both my tanks are on a mages account and not having a tank limits which heroics I want to try.

PvP might be a different story since I only run priest, 4x mage. I simply can't deal with as much incoming damage as a shaman boxer. I have to rely on putting more out and staying mobile, which in the end I think makes me more dangerous in some cases and less dangerous in others.

Edit: I will say my team probably take a bit more micromanaging then shaman though.

[pinotnoir]

I used to run pally tank, 3 mages and my druid healer. It really sucked without fear totem and poison and disease cleanse totem. I subbed one mage out for my shaman and it was pretty good. I had a better set of resist, fear totem ect.. Right now I am gearing my other toons up so I am running pally tank (may change to my dk because the pally needs no badge gear) 1 mage, 2 shaman, and my priest. The group is pretty solid. I like being able to chain heal with my two shaman to help out the priest if needed. The priest healer is much less button smashing over my druid. I think my ideal group setup would be pally tank, mage, shaman, priest, and lock. I love having mage buff, food, and ports so I think all groups should include 1 mage.

[HPAVC]

The mages crank out some serious DPS, I am fond of my Mage in my 10box sidebar team once I went Arcane and once I got some serious gear for it. Until the gear I was seriously thinking of dropping it. Plus arcane potency is nice and hard to replace integrate in a lot of common boxing setups. I guess amp / dampen magic is nice too.

I don't see how multiple mages add any synergy, more than one is an opportunity missed.

[Slats]

I'm thinking ahead to Cataclsym and I'm going to consolidate my characters a bit to work out what I want to move forwards with. I currently run:

Paladin Tank
Resto/Ele Shaman
Ele Shaman
Ele Shaman
Destruction Warlock

I was thinking of subbing a Elemental Shaman out for a mage. From this thread people talk about how much higher the arcane DPS is over there other characters. I was really worried in a mixed group how I would handle the proc based class of arcane mage as I tried it with Eclispe on a boomkin and really hated it.

But going forwards I would love to have Summon, Portals, Food/Drink, Resists etc. With the introduciton of /click and having moved away from keyclone to ISBoxer everything I found hard about a mixed team has gone out the window - now I'm simple limited by my own co-ordination and what I can think up.

I was thinking of Troll Arcane Mage - or does one of the othre specs offer better synergy?

[genocyde]

The mages crank out some serious DPS, I am fond of my Mage in my 10box sidebar team once I went Arcane and once I got some serious gear for it. Until the gear I was seriously thinking of dropping it. Plus arcane potency is nice and hard to replace integrate in a lot of common boxing setups. I guess amp / dampen magic is nice too.

I don't see how multiple mages add any synergy, more than one is an opportunity missed.

Ya, but who needs synergy when an unbuffed mage puts out as much or more DPS than some raid buffed toons. Right now I have no clue how you could beat the following group in DPS

DK tank with ebon plaguebringer
3x arcane mage
Ele shaman with occasional spot heals.

That group would be pumping out close to 40k dps in T9 on heroic fights.

Edit: Of course, that is only until cataclysm when everything gets equalized and this group is mediocre again

[Ghallo]

My primary team was 2x mages. I really have to agree with the fact that more than 1 mage is a missed opportunity. I am running 3 warlocks now and while I miss the ports and food ... it isn't so bad that I want to give up my extra Felguard, Seed of Corruption, and DoTs.

At 73, DoTs are AMAZING in movement-based boss fights. My mages lose a ton of DPS as soon as they need to move, whereas my Locks can just DoT and wait. Sure it isn't the super DPS that they could have, but I'd rather lose 50% of a toons DPS rather than 90-100%.

Warlocks have a SS. That means it takes me less time to learn a fight - and some fights I can just cheese through if I just want it done.

Warlocks have a pet. Their pet can bring true utility to the fight. Off-tank, extra DPS, whatever you need.

My original team could not complete ANY instances until they were 3-4 levels above. I couldn't complete Nexus (the Mage) even at 80 until I totally outgeared it. That's a 71 instance. My new team has completed UK (71), Nexus (71), AN (72). I don't know how I would have beat the final boss in AN without my locks. I just set the Felguards to Aggressive and didn't have to worry. All that, and my new team's gear is garbage compared to my first team's gear at this same level. Since I had the other team at 70 for a long time before the expansion, and this team (other than the tank) are bran-spankin-new it really shows what a change swapping classes can make.

[daviddoran]

Stacking most classes the e days is a missed opportunity, even if they are different specs. Havig one ele sham and one resto can help, but there's only a few times where I'd like more than 4 totems up.

Multiple arcane mages do have the ability to buff each other with focus magic. My one Mage is something like 45% crit now, so with 3 it would be insane.

[genocyde]

Running 3x arcane mage in emblem gear i saw as high as 7.5k DPS each on quick heroic tank and spanks.

Running 2x arcane mage 1x moonkin i saw as high as 9k DPS for mages and 5k for moonkin.

Running 2x arcane mage 1x moonkin and having a friends ele sham sub in for my priest healer on one run my mages saw as high as 12k DPS my moonkin stayed around 5k.

Needless to say I'm leveling a sham as a periodic sub for my priest for farming. I don't like shaman much as healers compared to a priest. But they are a little easier to box and their buffs are the most OP thing in the game.

One thing I will say though is that mages top all other casters in your average AoE situation.

[Ualaa]

Hmm..

Team A
Elem Shaman
Elem Shaman
Prot Paladin
Elem Shaman
Destro Warlock

Team B
Disc Priest
Arcane Mage
Boom/Feral Druid
Elem Shaman
Elem Shaman

Team A is the main team, Team B is just for dailies at the moment.

If I traded the Arcane Mage (account 2) for a Shaman...
Would 2x Elemental be enough healing for Team A?
Chances are, for current content it would be.
But how about when starting Cataclysm level heroics, in fresh to 85th gear or level 80 badge/T9 gear?

I really like the 3x dps, who can heal anything.
But who put out far more dps then any healer toon.
Could easily spec one of the remaining two shammies as resto.
Or possibly also trade the priest for the shammy that would go resto.

I also like the idea of portals on demand.
And higher DPS is higher DPS...

[daviddoran]

Running 3x arcane mage in emblem gear i saw as high as 7.5k DPS each on quick heroic tank and spanks.

Running 2x arcane mage 1x moonkin i saw as high as 9k DPS for mages and 5k for moonkin.

Running 2x arcane mage 1x moonkin and having a friends ele sham sub in for my priest healer on one run my mages saw as high as 12k DPS my moonkin stayed around 5k.

Needless to say I'm leveling a sham as a periodic sub for my priest for farming. I don't like shaman much as healers compared to a priest. But they are a little easier to box and their buffs are the most OP thing in the game.

One thing I will say though is that mages top all other casters in your average AoE situation.

The moonkin gave you a 13% dmg boost, and the shaman gave you 5% spell haste boost, and a 240(?) spellpower boost. All of those add up to quite a bit of damage, as you saw in your testing. I use a warlock for my 13% bonus, as a warlock can do comprable dps to a mage (mine are almost equal in dps numbers) I also have a priest which gives me a spirit bonus, which helps everyone but my shaman and paladin, and i put kings on everyone, and ive got some pretty awesome synergy.

[crowdx]

My Arcance Mage destroys my Destro lock in the dps charts. My 4.5 kGS mage gets about 800+ more dps than my 4.8k GS Lock. The mage with 36% crit procs a lot during most fights giving his dps a substantial boost.
Where the lock shines is having no real downtime, mage still needs a little downtime after a long fight which the lock can lifetap and is ready to go.

[daviddoran]

my mage and lock always used to top each other replacing the top with every gear upgrade, or macro improvement, but I am pretty sure I've maximized both of them. on a long enough fight they are consistently very close to each other in DPS. Interestingly my lock has WAY more spellpower than my mage, something like 3300 fully buffed, and the mage comes up to 2600... both are hovering under 5k gearscore, mage has something like 42% crit fuly buffed... (and puts focus magic on my shaman, who crits a whole hell of a lot....) I find that my mage actually has better mana management, maybe because I have macro'd in using mana gems (did it mostly back when T7 or T8, i forget which buffed you with spellpower every time you used the gem) They both definately compliment each other. Especially porting/summon... best 2 spells i got lol


My Arcance Mage destroys my Destro lock in the dps charts. My 4.5 kGS mage gets about 800+ more dps than my 4.8k GS Lock. The mage with 36% crit procs a lot during most fights giving his dps a substantial boost.
Where the lock shines is having no real downtime, mage still needs a little downtime after a long fight which the lock can lifetap and is ready to go.

i checked out your lock, and if you wanna max your dps, you could move a few points around. I have zero points in affliction, i dont cast curse of agony, I use curse of the elements. I'd move all those points into demonology and get 3 pts in demonic aegis to improve your fel armors effectiveness. Also ditch the 3 points in improved shadow bolt, as you never cast shadowbolt in a full destro build. That should get your locks dps up to par with your mages. I tweaked my click macro too, moved chaos bolt BEFORE conflagerate, cause sometimes conflag wouldnt cast due to server lag, having not registered immolate yet.

[genocyde]

my mage and lock always used to top each other replacing the top with every gear upgrade, or macro improvement, but I am pretty sure I've maximized both of them.

What is your mage geared like? Armory link? Raids? Heroics? Trash? Boss? I'm just curious in what situation a lock is able to keep up with a mage. I've never seen it on a heroic except maybe the ICC bosses

Edit: Nevermind, I think i found your mage. Looks like your geared for rading, so I'm guessing your talking about raid bosses, in which case I can easily see the lock/mage being neck and neck with DPS. You should be running a bit more haste on your mage but I'm sure your doing just fine.

Heroics are a totally different ballgame. (also too easy to care about min/max much.)

[crowdx]

Thanks for the info, I will try moving those points this evening :)
Something I did yesterday evening was swap out my mages robe and gem everything to epic (had some blues in his gear due to being a daily dungeon alt :) ) and it actually seemed to have helped both the mage AND the lock, synergy ? Both toons were hitting about 5k on trash mobs due to crits.
I do agree that the mage has much less spellpower than my lock with the mage having the higher crit.
Thanks for the insight David :)
UPDATE: I respecced my locks last night and dropped in the emblem of frost trinket, both toons party buffed are now around 3k dps and about 30% crit. For some reason in the limited play I had recount was not working so I will have to report the numbers once I get some play time in tonight.
I also updated my Demonology spec and will re-glyph incinerate when I try this spec possibly at the weekend :)