PvP Resilience Changes

[Fat Tire]

We are currently in the process of applying a hotfix to buff resilience. While some modifications may be made, we intend to have this buff in effect for the remainder of the Wrath of the Lich King expansion.

The change will double the value of resilience in reducing damage done by players. So depending on their current amount of resilience, characters might experience a 10 to 20% decrease in damage taken from other players. The critical strike chance and critical strike damage reduction components of resilience will remain unaffected by this change.

We are also aware of the possibility that this change will make healing in PvP too difficult to counter. While we are not making any immediate changes to address this issue, we have prepared some further changes that will allow us to quickly deploy a PvP-only healing adjustment if we feel it is warranted.

We will be applying this change very soon while we are between Arena seasons so we can evaluate how it works in multiple PvP scenarios for the upcoming Arena season, and as we continue to prepare for Cataclysm. As we have mentioned previously, one of the goals for Cataclysm is to have a PvP environment where it is harder to regularly achieve so much damage and healing in relatively few global cooldowns compared to what we currently have in the game.

(http://blue.mmo-champion.com/11/22739754001-pvp-resilience-changes.html)"The critical strike chance and critical strike damage reduction components of resilience will remain unaffected by this change."

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/11/22739754001-pvp-resilience-changes.html

[remanz]

Not looking good for dk + melees. We have no dedicated healer and already have trouble killing.

[Owltoid]

Great... :(

Maybe it's time to shelf the FotM DK+Pally team and give the 5x resto a shot... the matches would be brutally long, but if nothing can bust you down then they may outlast.

[Owltoid]

Similar to TBC, I smell the resurgence of drain teams. Break out the priests and locks.

[Fat Tire]

Not looking good for dk + melees. We have no dedicated healer and already have trouble killing.


Correct, unless you have the best weapons/gear then its normalized.


I see it as a boon to quad shamans+healer personally. It is, however, a nerf to my doulbe dps 2v2 teams.:(

[remanz]

Correct, unless you have the best weapons/gear then its normalized.


I see it as a boon to quad shamans+healer personally. It is, however, a nerf to my doulbe dps 2v2 teams.:(


Oh for those who are "overkilling" their targets. This is certainly a boost. Added survival is much needed for the shammies.

DK + 4 pallies, CC/Interrupt is the only way out. With that said, a simple strategy like "liking the healer first" might not be so bad. Because the healers can't heal when I am on him, and now I last longer with dps beating on me.

[Multibocks]

Damn gonna be harder killing people... my pve groups are not amused!

[Ughmahedhurtz]

I can hear the 1v1'ers cranking up their whine-o-meters on any class that can self-heal as "OP OMG NERF."

And I got a good chuckle out of:

We are also aware of the possibility that this change will make healing in PvP too difficult to counter. While we are not making any immediate changes to address this issue, we have prepared some further changes that will allow us to quickly deploy a PvP-only healing adjustment if we feel it is warranted.
As in, "Yes, we know this will fubar healing in PVP but we don't know by how much so we're waiting to see how badly this screws things over."

Also, I suspect this is only going to exaggerate the disparity between certain classes/specs/comps, making things even harder to balance for healing.

Prediction: they'll find a way to fuck up healing after this such that they'll have to redo it all again to "fix" PVE side-effects.

I could be wrong...but I doubt it.

[Mosg2]

I think they need to start with removing all Mortal Strike effects from the game--Then healing can be balanced vs damage vs global cooldowns. As long as MS is available to some classes and not all classes at disparate % effects you're going to see a much more limited set of viable comps. Period.

4x Warlock plus Disc Priest is going to be a *fun* comp if these changes stick around!

[Stealthy]

It's kinda funny - early in the season they were saying "we don't think burst is a problem in pvp" and now they are effectively saying just the opposite.

Personally, I think they will have to address the healing issue sooner rather than later...some healing classes (resto druids, disc priests) are already very strong in pvp, and this change just makes them stronger.

It will be interesting to see the new arena teams / strats that come from this...

Cheers,
S.

[heyaz]

Additional 10-20% reduction in damage, overall or as a percentage of what it already has?

If I'm currently taking say 20% reduced damage and this change makes it 22 or 24%....I don't see that as being totally game breaking.

If it's just being added... like taking 30-40% less damage now, that's going to be ridiculous. I don't see how you're going to be able to kill anything even with mortal strike up. With all the passive group heals, bubbles, and damage reducing abilities no one is gonna take any damage at all.

[remanz]

Additional 10-20% reduction in damage, overall or as a percentage of what it already has?

If I'm currently taking say 20% reduced damage and this change makes it 22 or 24%....I don't see that as being totally game breaking.

If it's just being added... like taking 30-40% less damage now, that's going to be ridiculous. I don't see how you're going to be able to kill anything even with mortal strike up. With all the passive group heals, bubbles, and damage reducing abilities no one is gonna take any damage at all.

I think with 1k reslience , the flat damage reduction was about 10%. This new change only affects this (not the crit damage). So add 10-20% to that. So it is 20%-30% flat damage reduction. In the worse case, 30% flat damage reduction, PVP gear will be like running around with PVE gear + divine sacrifice.

Probably call out everybody and their friends to go cry on Blizzard forums to demand a justifcation for this. Either reduce healing on players or revert the reslience buff.

[Stealthy]

This is going to be fun with stacks of Tenacity in WG. :D

[Mosg2]

Or roll up 4x Warlocks and just Drain Mana for free wins :)

[heyaz]

I think with 1k reslience , the flat damage reduction was about 10%. This new change only affects this (not the crit damage). So add 10-20% to that. So it is 20%-30% flat damage reduction.

edit: nevermind, I read the blue and that's what the wording sounds like.

I hope their "pvp only healing adjustment" goes into effect to counter this

how in the hell are you going to be able to kill ANYTHING, even with mortal strike?

Healers never run out of mana, most healing specs can tank a dps class nearly indefinitely and never go oom... and uh
yeah I don't even

with like 3600 spell power iwin button nukes + rockets I already leave geared players at like 5% hp due to all the group damage reduction, passive healing, etc. Now they won't even get close to dying, and then just be penance (aka lay on hands every 12 seconds) back to full.

lol

[Ellay]

I kind of like this change :) we'll see how it pans out. Hopefully I'll have some decent PvP gear as well and some strong weapons for the new season..

[Altsoba]

I kind of like this change :) we'll see how it pans out. Hopefully I'll have some decent PvP gear as well and some strong weapons for the new season..

Welcome back!
Which comp are you going for Ellay?

[Altsoba]

This is what I think (from quad shaman perspective):

The OS bang bang kill will be even harder to achieve on hard targets...
...BUT since you survive longer I believe you'll also have more time for purging targets and make target softer.

Burst on one or more of our toons was also a problem to our healers so we also benefit from it.

I think that we'll see more teams of non boxers with 4 dpsers.
Main targeting the healers is now more interesting than ever.

I'll have ready for this season 4 warlocks and dk+4 rets as well as my shaman team.
We'll see :)

[heyaz]

This is what I think (from quad shaman perspective):

The OS bang bang kill will be even harder to achieve on hard targets...
...BUT since you survive longer I believe you'll also have more time for purging targets and make target softer.

Burst on one or more of our toons was also a problem to our healers so we also benefit from it.

I think that we'll see more teams of non boxers with 4 dpsers.
Main targeting the healers is now more interesting than ever.

I'll have ready for this season 4 warlocks and dk+4 rets as well as my shaman team.
We'll see :)

I'm pretty concerned about how this will affect 4x shaman, which relied on only a few seconds of being able to cast and global a dps right off the bat to gain the edge. More survivability for the shaman was rarely the issue in my experience - and those who tried stacking stam and resilience to keep the shaman alive can tell you it failed miserably - it only delayed the inevitable and when you weren't chain cc'd and silenced you couldn't kill anything because damage suffered.

.There were very few teams (some quad dps) that used no cc and just globaled the shaman - the rest just controlled and silenced the team to the point where a kill was not possible. With this much more damage reduction, the whole strategy behind the team (quick global on first dps) is not going to be that viable because they are most likely going to survive it (at high ratings they usually survived anyway with 5-10% hp and got healed to full). No they won't even get close to dying.

As shaman are so soft to begin with, I'm not sure if a total strategy change of tankign the dps and trying to pressure the healers would work, I think your toons will still drop off faster than theirs. Anyone who has played at very high levels where people are fully geared knows that once you are down to only 2 or 3 shaman, a kill is not likely.

Surviving larger to purge and soften up targets... I'm really not sure. In most games you can't even cast 90% of the time. We quit using purge past about 1500 rating because no skilled team would let you spare a single global. By the time you did that you were already being controlled and/or losing shaman.

[Mosg2]

As I said above, I think this change is going to destroy any composition that doesn't have MS. I think it makes a lot more Battleground teams more viable, but other than that...

[Fat Tire]

Q u o t e:
All you're doing is encouraging DPS to wear MORE PVE gear which is already an issue. Healers are already nearly unstoppable and now you're making it even harder to kill them? Awesome, now I have to raid again to be viable in PvP.

I think teams may try to focus on PvE gear as a way of blowing up healers on the other team. If that doesn't work (because the healer has resilience), then the PvE-geared guys won't have the survivability to stick around long. If you can't blow people up very quickly, then the glass-cannon thing just doesn't work and longevity becomes more important to everyone. If you can blow up healers too easily (while wearing PvE gear), then we might need to buff resilience even more. If you can blow up dps specs wearing PvE gear easily, well, mission accomplished. If you can never defeat healers (note I said defeat, not blow up in 2 globals) then we will need to nerf healing. Again, the goal is to have slightly longer matches with a little more back and forth. (Emphasis on "little" -- 20 min matches can be as tedious as 20 sec matches are unsatisfying.)

[Fat Tire]

If someone knows how to imbed/show the blizzard actual quote let me know. I would like that better than copy/paste.:D


I do like this change or kinda like it. I do think healing or passive healing has to be toned down, even with all the new s8/ICC gear coming in the new few weeks. The healers are getting new gear too and I think this is what will spark a arena/bg MS type effect kinda like Icewell radiance. They cant go too far with it because then you would never have any healers playing.

[Svpernova09]

I wish they'd roll back and undo all the retarded nerfs that affected PvE Healing and make those nerfs *JUST* for PvP. Nerfing PvE for the sake of PvP got really old, really fast.

[Fursphere]

It's kinda funny - early in the season they were saying "we don't think burst is a problem in pvp" and now they are effectively saying just the opposite.
S.

This is Blizzard's style. There are countless examples of them publically stating one thing then going 180 on it shortly after.

End of TBC - "We don't like fear and abilities that take contol away from the player and would like to move away from it as a PvE gimmick" - (Old Kingdom, Halls of LIghtning, Utgarde Pinnacle... etc)

Hunter pets - Taming spirit wolves was on unforseen ability, but we feel its ok and won't be removing it. (two weeks later it was hotfixed)

Recently ICC Release - "we plan on having 6 weeks inbetween wings in ICC" - later bumped to two weeks with no reason as to why.

I could go on, but you get the idea. Whatever Blizzard employees say - its pure crap and WILL be shitcanned at the drop of a hat with no explantion or justification.

[Naysayer]

might be time to break out the lolsmite priests again.

fuck it. if i don't win, neither do they.

[outdrsyguy1]

wow, this is crazy, with my noob team of 4pally + dk there are priests that it takes me atleast 20 seconds to kill when it's 5 v 1. This will make them unkillable in my opinion. I'm sure it will get adjusted real fast, the question is by how much....

I may have to grind up a warrior for my druids and do a 4 resto drui ms warrior team and just play an hour each match until the other team quits or finally goes oom, which is probably unlikely lol

[heyaz]

wow, this is crazy, with my noob team of 4pally + dk there are priests that it takes me atleast 20 seconds to kill when it's 5 v 1.

Are they able to do this with pws, instant casts and HoTs? if you chain silence it would be hard for them to survive, especially if you land a 5 second strangulate as well as mind freeze.

[heyaz]

might be time to break out the lolsmite priests again.

fuck it. if i don't win, neither do they.

haha, I like that idea. I didn't think of how fun that could be if this ridiculous change goes live. When I got my shaman geared I tried 4x resto and would just sit and tank several people, to the point where people would actually just run away. A quad box healer could become practically invincible

[Fat Tire]

haha, I like that idea. I didn't think of how fun that could be if this ridiculous change goes live.



No, we are making the change before the start of the season. We wanted to give players a chance to experiment with it and make gear and team choices accordingly.

It's possible it is live right now.

Ghostcrawler

[Multibocks]

Wow that was fast. Love to hear some feedback on it!

[remanz]

wow, this is crazy, with my noob team of 4pally + dk there are priests that it takes me atleast 20 seconds to kill when it's 5 v 1. This will make them unkillable in my opinion. I'm sure it will get adjusted real fast, the question is by how much....

I may have to grind up a warrior for my druids and do a 4 resto drui ms warrior team and just play an hour each match until the other team quits or finally goes oom, which is probably unlikely lol


Before I get full furious + 4 x 251 2h swords, I fought a druid in WG. He was in human form (human form !~~~) and the fight lasted about 3mins. And this is 5 x 1, and I was using 5 x 219 2h mace from normal POS. The fight ended with him going OOM. He was trying to put dots on me, moon fire, etc while healing himself. Nearly killed 1 of my paladins.

I used all that I can use, slience, strangulate, stun, repentance, hungering cold, everything. It was not even funny~

[drevil]

the 3.0 dev team is so lame...

[Altsoba]

As I said above, I think this change is going to destroy any composition that doesn't have MS. I think it makes a lot more Battleground teams more viable, but other than that...

Sooo... War+3 Rets+DK It's gonna be fun to box all that xD

[heyaz]

The tooptip doesn't show the change. Not sure if that is any indication.

[Menthu]

Lets wait and see how this is for the PvPers among us. I can't stop thinking about this being crap. The healing "debuff" should be in place at the same time or we might get hilarious moments in arena....depends what you find hilarious :P

Junglelove,

-Menthu

[Kicksome]

A fully geared PvP priest took out 4 of my pally's and my DK last night. I don't think I ever got him below 50% health. It was nuts. Fear, Penance, Holy Nova or something like that - it was totally insane.

This was in an AV tower, so the fear really messed me up - I trinket-ed the first, but he came in again. Also we was joined by a one or two others after a bit, but he seriously kicked my ass. The last time I remember getting my ass kicked this bad was pre-WoLK right after patch 3.0 - when pally's were out of control.

[remanz]

To offset the damage output, Blizzard has made healing per second quite large. A Disc priest, can do about 8k HPS easily if you count his damage reduction skills as heals (shield). 5 of your guys combine are probably not doing 8k + dps on him (fear alone will screw up your DPS by a lot. Not to mention after fear, you got slaves stuck on the stairs, behind the walls). Not only is he back to full, he can also DPS you now.


Solution ? forget the bubble, when you see him, open wings =>stun,=> => strangulate => stun again. Put those into a click macro sequence like we did for DPS buttons. No way he can live through + 20% damage and ignoring all damage reduction x 4.

[Shodokan]

I'm really curious how this is going to play out. I'm not even sure what team i want to level next now as it seems the 5 dps teams are being gimped to holy hell.

This is making a rogue team look incredibly viable now if played well and have a good priest or druid healer. Who knows.

[Fat Tire]

As a follow up, this change went live on Wednesday afternoon. The tooltip for resilience will update when patch 3.3.2 comes out to reflect this change. Please continue to provide your feedback and experiences in this thread.


http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=22739754001&sid=1&pageNo=29#562

[Ughmahedhurtz]

From post 578 in this thread (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=22739754001&sid=1&pageNo=29#578):



* 578. Re: PvP Resilience Changes 01/22/2010 02:08:43 PM PST

Been dueling and skirmishing all day and nothing has changed.

I guess this blue poster is misinformed because I tested it myself and the resil change is most definitely not implemented on my server at the time of this posting

Tested casting exorcism on a friend of mine in zero resil and then casting it again under the same conditions but with resil set on. The reduction was in line with current resil values (8% in this case) and not the doubled reduction we should be seeing (should've seen 16% reduction in damage)

I guess they're trying to see if people even notice either way, I don't know. Before I even read that it was hotfixed, I noticed no difference in damage done on resil targets. *HINT* it wasn't hotfixed

Confirmation?

[Fat Tire]

I have tried several duels and not seen any change at all. In bgs its not noticeable at all. /shrug

My bet is that its not implemented yet, 10-20% would for sure be noticed.

[remanz]

Additional 10-20% reduction in damage, overall or as a percentage of what it already has?

If I'm currently taking say 20% reduced damage and this change makes it 22 or 24%....I don't see that as being totally game breaking.

If it's just being added... like taking 30-40% less damage now, that's going to be ridiculous. I don't see how you're going to be able to kill anything even with mortal strike up. With all the passive group heals, bubbles, and damage reducing abilities no one is gonna take any damage at all.


Maybe Heyaz was right after all. + ((10 - 20 %) of 20%) dmg reduction. So 22-24% dmg reduction. Lol~.

I would then call up blizzard. Tell them I am very happy about the change. Ticket closed and have a nice day.

[Fat Tire]

Apparently the hot fix is live but it needs a restart on the realms.

[grettir]

Well im all for damage reduction with resilience but like stated in this thread soo many times Healing is simply way to high at its current state and if nothing else changes this fix will just make things worse.:mad:

[asonimie]

Umm, sorry but all you people saying that DK +4Ret is dead now... lol you're baddies.

#1 - DK/4xRet has healing too... an insane amount of it actually.
#2 - We use resilience too... I will GLADLY take any survivability buffs we can get.
#3 - Insane inflated iLvl scaling on top melee weapons vs others during the upcoming season will more than cancel out any resilience protection gained by this "buff"
#4 - We do not run OOM, we do lose DPS over time, we are a infinite DPS battery that can only be stopped by killing us off (not enough survivability) - Therefore buffing our survivability (resilience buff) is essentially buffing our only weak spot as a comp. Sounds good to me.
#5 - Who cares if you don't global every target you touch, our comp will still be putting out insanely higher sustained dps which adds up fast against other comps. Over time we have an inherent advantage there as well.
#6 - People who are meleeing healers for 3 minutes or w/e, you need to learn how to use your amazing CC and how to predict healer patterns. When I approach a disc priest I know exactly what to expect. They last 2 seconds when I fight them properly. Without this kind of PVP understanding you won't be successful in arena anyway.

[Fat Tire]

Umm, sorry but all you people saying that DK +4Ret is dead now... lol you're baddies.

Dude you got me, I feel used.. ;(

I re read this entire thread again and didnt find one person who said DK+4Ret was dead.

Edit: Ghostcrawler just posted about plate having too much survivability.

There have to be trade-offs for survivability, and some of our PvP balance problems especially with the plate-wearers, have been because there weren't.

[remanz]

Umm, sorry but all you people saying that DK +4Ret is dead now... lol you're baddies.

#1 - DK/4xRet has healing too... an insane amount of it actually.
#2 - We use resilience too... I will GLADLY take any survivability buffs we can get.
#3 - Insane inflated iLvl scaling on top melee weapons vs others during the upcoming season will more than cancel out any resilience protection gained by this "buff"
#4 - We do not run OOM, we do lose DPS over time, we are a infinite DPS battery that can only be stopped by killing us off (not enough survivability) - Therefore buffing our survivability (resilience buff) is essentially buffing our only weak spot as a comp. Sounds good to me.
#5 - Who cares if you don't global every target you touch, our comp will still be putting out insanely higher sustained dps which adds up fast against other comps. Over time we have an inherent advantage there as well.
#6 - People who are meleeing healers for 3 minutes or w/e, you need to learn how to use your amazing CC and how to predict healer patterns. When I approach a disc priest I know exactly what to expect. They last 2 seconds when I fight them properly. Without this kind of PVP understanding you won't be successful in arena anyway.

All are good points. I didn't say DK + 4 Rets are dead though. Our CC is given, always have been there. My concern is for something that was taken away from us. Yes. I agree that we have high sustained DPS. But against good teams, I find that my DPS up time goes as long as Hand of Freedom duration, not to mention I only got 4 not 5. Cleanse takes time.

Just like shamans, it is important to output as much damage as possible in those small window that you get to attack. In S7, in a few matches, I was very closed from killing my target (usually first warlock or priest) against those 1900-2000 rating teams. Left him at 5%, then he got away. With the new reslience buff, I can see that I will have a hard time deal with them. This is my main concern.

[asonimie]

Didn't mean to be demeaning I just hate when something changes everyone starts talking like its armageddon. I really really don't think this will make a big difference for DK / Ret. EJs or just common sense will tell you that the item inflation for next season will more than undo any buff from this resilience. So worst case scenario we are looking at same kill:time ratio as season7, but a little better.

Melee dmg is scaling higher with new gear than other specs, and considering we are 5x melee (maybe 4.5x melee since DK dmg is a joke), we will out-scale everyone in this regard. A point I didn't fully make before which I believe previews what we can expect starting this week

[Fat Tire]

Didn't mean to be demeaning I just hate when something changes everyone starts talking like its armageddon. I really really don't think this will make a big difference for DK / Ret. EJs or just common sense will tell you that the item inflation for next season will more than undo any buff from this resilience. So worst case scenario we are looking at same kill:time ratio as season7, but a little better.

Melee dmg is scaling higher with new gear than other specs, and considering we are 5x melee (maybe 4.5x melee since DK dmg is a joke), we will out-scale everyone in this regard. A point I didn't fully make before which I believe previews what we can expect starting this week

"EJs or just common sense". Damn, there is a oxymoron if ever i saw one.


Call it a hunch, but I dont think these are the only changes we will see regarding pvp/resilience/arenas. Well atleast until after the first week of s8.

[Multibocks]

EJ is uncommon sense, taking each class to the extreme in theory crafting. Unless I misunderstood what you were saying.

[Kruschpakx4]

ohhhh damn resilience buff!

Shamanism: This talent now increases your Lightning Bolt or Chain Lightning spell damage by 4/8/12/16/20% (Up from 3/6/9/12/15%) and Lava Burst spell damage by 5/10/15/20/25% (Up from 4/8/12/16/20%)

fixed :>

[Fat Tire]

ohhhh damn resilience buff!

Shamanism: This talent now increases your Lightning Bolt or Chain Lightning spell damage by 4/8/12/16/20% (Up from 3/6/9/12/15%) and Lava Burst spell damage by 5/10/15/20/25% (Up from 4/8/12/16/20%)

fixed :>


Its a 3% Pve buff, still a 7.5% pvp dps loss against a full resilience player according to the fine theroycrafting people at EJ.

The ebb and flow of WoW. It pays never to get too excited or call out the sky is falling.

[remanz]

Delayed 3.3.2 until next week. So possible a reduce healing for PVP?

I didn't notice much difference in BGs after the resilience buff, probably they were not fully pvp geared.

Now all I have to do is to stack even more resilience on my DK.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

Delayed 3.3.2 until next week. So possible a reduce healing for PVP?

I didn't notice much difference in BGs after the resilience buff, probably they were not fully pvp geared.

Now all I have to do is to stack even more resilience on my DK.

If your realm had not been restarted since the resilience buff announcement, it did not actually take effect. With the server reboots today, you should now notice the extra resilience effects.

[heyaz]

ohhhh damn resilience buff!

Shamanism: This talent now increases your Lightning Bolt or Chain Lightning spell damage by 4/8/12/16/20% (Up from 3/6/9/12/15%) and Lava Burst spell damage by 5/10/15/20/25% (Up from 4/8/12/16/20%)

fixed :>

I won't complain about that buff, will be nice to see some bigger numbers in PVE and in BGs/WG, but I think that will hardly negate the resilience buff.

[Kruschpakx4]

yeah but i think there will still be some people in high rating who prefer 2 or 4 t10 instead of pvp

[drevil]

well at the moment healers are untouchable... way to go blizzard