Tri-DPSING in raids (hardcore raiding mindset)

[Shodokan]

There are many fights in which as either caster or melee this is possible. After reading EJ and seeing many unholy DK's pulling over 6k dps in heroics i ran on my tank (some were even undergeared) i was thinking that something like a DK with a 1 button rotation like they can have would be great for such a thing(as they nolonger use SS glyph), as well as things like arcane mages. I don't see many instances where having multiple shaman would be useful for such a thing as their DPS is quite low comparably to other such classes that can have 1 button type DPS rotations (not able to break 7k).

I watched my roomate do ICC the other day and it doesn't seem like any of the first 7 bosses would truely require much effort to tripple DPS as a boxer with the exception of possibly gunship. The fights in ToC would not require much work either other than the third boss, but if you are doing strictly 25 man content with them 3 of say 12 DPS not being able to CC or whatever would not kill the raid especially as a caster and in some cases if you were running a tripple DPS group like say... Mage, Warlock and Shaman you would have cooldowns that do not share diminishing returns so you could also single handedly keep a mob CC'd with sheep and fear without needing to rely on others to do so (for example 10 man version champion fight)

In my opinion something along the lines of

3x dk or 3x rogue would be most effective with teams like i said before of mage/lock/shaman or tripple mage or tripple lock would come in shortly after that. I don't see paladins pulling high end DPS as their priority rotation would need to be managed for three separate characters, so if you were to somehow manage to do this effectively then it could work. The major problem i see with Ret is that the 2 piece tier 10 bonus is too good to pass up but using it efficiently on three separate toons would be cumbersome.

So my question to you is. What do you all feel would be the most efficient at being a good raid member (high dps) for raiding new content?

Please keep in mind that i am assuming that people attempting to do this have common sense, meaning things like being able to either visually see or set up audio que configurations for when you get debuffs such as being targeted for putricide's brown slime kite to either be able to PiP switch and change focus and run away or take actions based on similar situations.

[Mokoi]

Double-tanking raids would be FAR easier.

[Multibocks]

These days I'll take non-mouthbreather dps that is lower vs the high dps idiot that stands in fire or doesnt move when they get puked on or knows how to kite a damn slime. The hard part of ICC raiding is finding dps that realizes there is more to raiding than your recount.

[Shodokan]

These days I'll take non-mouthbreather dps that is lower vs the high dps idiot that stands in fire or doesnt move when they get puked on or knows how to kite a damn slime. The hard part of ICC raiding is finding dps that realizes there is more to raiding than your recount.

Controlling these characters yourself as well as doing high dps is the upside to this.

Also double tanking would highly depend on the fight as well. I guess kiting on one and having the other sit there for things like the worms in TOC would work, but fights like twin valks would be a problem being able to run to the other side and click unless you really have good situational awareness and set up your tanking correctly. There are many more fights that would take a lot more skill to tank than dps.

[Fursphere]

There are many fights in which as either caster or melee this is possible. After reading EJ and seeing many unholy DK's pulling over 6k dps in heroics i ran on my tank (some were even undergeared) i was thinking that something like a DK with a 1 button rotation like they can have would be great for such a thing(as they nolonger use SS glyph), as well as things like arcane mages. I don't see many instances where having multiple shaman would be useful for such a thing as their DPS is quite low comparably to other such classes that can have 1 button type DPS rotations (not able to break 7k).

Starting off with a bang on this one. Once again, you're dead wrong. Niley is pulling 10k dps with his Shaman (pre-ICC release).

[Zal]

Starting off with a bang on this one. Once again, you're dead wrong. Niley is pulling 10k dps with his Shaman (pre-ICC release).
I'm guessing thats fully raid buffed, over 3k spell power, ~40% crit, and around 750-900 haste? Otherwise i highly doubt thats possible. (saying niley is ele shaman, i don't know him/her)

Edit: Nevermind, found an armory link. Its possible.

[Fursphere]

I'm guessing thats fully raid buffed, over 3k spell power, ~40% crit, and around 750-900 haste? Otherwise i highly doubt thats possible. (saying niley is ele shaman, i don't know him/her)

Edit: Nevermind, found an armory link. Its possible.

Ya I was skeptical too at first - but I've seen the profile, and I've seen the screenshots. Its possible.

[Akoko]

I was actually worried about the future of my 3x mages once they hit 80. Is Naxx really that unfriendly to multiboxers? How about Ulduar? I've never even seen Ulduar and I've only ran Naxx as a single boxer about a year ago and don't really recall any fights that seemed particularly movement intensive except for Thaddius and Heigan the Unclean. Could anyone with experience DPS multiboxing give me some opinions on the feasibility of 3x ranged dps in raids?

[Sajuuk]

If you're going with a hardcore raid mindset you'll play one character. (Hardcore meaning TOGC/ICC10/25)

Three skilled and well geared players > one skilled player playing three characters.

"OH! BUT I IZ LEET MAN-CHILD!"

There's more to think about than just doing high DPS.
1. Reliability. WILL YOU ALWAYS BE THERE? What happens when you Disconnect? While relogging your performance suffers across ALL characters, not just one.
2. Actual performance. Could to bring as much as three dedicated players, and constantly give it your all?
3. The gear issue. Oh yes, I know you're a special case that's getting carried by jesus to fame, gear, and fortune, but be realistic. How long is it going to take you to gear three characters to all have the best gear possible, including raid drop trinkets/weapons/rings? RNG boss strikes!
4. Strategy. You really want to screw things up for other people by having to tweak every single strategy to make things easier for you?

[Niley]

hardcore raiding, aka doing real hard modes while being competitive will not happen anytime soon.
So what if You can pull off 10k dps on a dummy, this will not be the case on bosses(95% of the time), being competetive requires very tight rotation and very good knowledge of your class(which most boxers tend to lack, even I don't know that much about locks even thought i play/box one)
Bosses have single targeting buff/debuffs now, dps for the most part is not stand there press buttons and look pretty. I could give you plenty of examples.
This is coming from a player that killed everything so far in the game(normal/heroic) and until about 3 weeks ago was highest dps ele shaman in usa(according to wmo and wol scoreboards), now i need to drop tow so qq.

Dont read this if you dont plan on attempting hard modes, norm al raiding is 100% possible, ive done it myself.(2x ele/lock)

[daviddoran]

I learned so much about my toons when I played them solo. I realized I had missing gems, enchants, and the wrong glyphs.

Dont try to box cutting edge content right when it comes out. Once it loses the "ooh shiney" effect, and ppl learn the fights and start to outgear it, then you can start to think about boxing in raids, provided everyone else knows their role. Usually having a really good healer or a really good dps, or a really good tank can help round out other deficiencies. In my guild, the healers are friggin awesome. Pugging some raids where the tanks and DPS way outgear it, we wiped due to healers not being as leet as what I'm used to.

[MiRai]

In my guild, the healers are friggin awesome. Pugging some raids where the tanks and DPS way outgear it, we wiped due to healers not being as leet as what I'm used to.
Sexy time!

No really though Shodokan. The replies in this thread speak the truth. A lot of single target debuffs these days could really screw things up and hurt your raid as a whole. Possible? Sure...I believe almost anything is possible. Probable? You'd have to have a raid of single players that are willing to bend to your needs and carry you at times.

[daviddoran]

Case in point: we were doing naxx 10 for achievements, and I was boxing 4 dps. For 4 horsemen we had to design a strategy around me boxing, rather than just splitting up the dps... We ended up having me and the other dps go around and work each boss slowly. The raid had to accommodate me. If you have a similar situation, more power to you. A standard guild won't want to make exceptions, unless they really need to fill spits, and/or hate to pug.

[johny_mnemonic]

I boxed 3 dps in Nax10 before Ulduar patch was released. So you can imagine the gear that was available. I was playing 3 demo locks or 3 unholy DKs. It was quite doable except some fights like where you need to stand near the same positive/negative charged players. This ended me standing with locks on platform and blasting boss from above, without bonus dmg from same charges. DKs on the other hand was quite hard, watching who has what charge and react fast enough to not blow up raid. This ended like 2 dks dead :-) and me controling only 1. But it was also doable. Only problem was when another dps died.

The thing is, if need to have party/raid which is willing to take your characters instead of solo players.

[zenga]

I know the topic is multiple dps in a raid, but i was wondering if multiple healing would be easier to do?

[Multibocks]

Hell no, can you click on two different people at same time and cast heal? Healers need to be played singly, its just too much whackamole going on for one person to handle.

[Saithe]

Every time I do TOC raid content or below I get the itch to roll 1-2 more Hunters to pair with my current one so I can just replace all the sub-par DPSers in the raids...
With new content, I wouldn't bother. But once you've got it on farm and people stop showing up for non-progression stuff, you might as well try to keep it interesting.

I would spec them all MM for an easy rotation (don't have to worry about LnL procs), it would make for insane initial threat with 3x MDs. And since my guild isn't very well geared, I'd still be able to top the meters with undergeared MM hunters and my decked Main.

And just as an off-topic thought, the people saying they'd take a lower DPS person who knows what they're doing over a high DPSer...From my experience, if someone knows what they're doing, they'll do the high DPS, it's not hard. It's the ones that have low DPS that are the knuckle-draggers, because THEY are the ones standing in fire/running through Anub's spikes.

[Jheusse]

Short version: You could box dps in the first 4 bosses relatively easily. After that it becomes bitch goddess at a minimum.

Marrowgar you just have all of the toons run away together and return together, you just add /target bone spire to your master raiding targeting macro.

Deathwhisper should be doable so long as you're doing identical classes and move everyone out of the death n decay. All melee dps boxers hit adherents, caster/magic damage hit the fanatics.

Gunship should actually be relatively easy if you've got proper broadcast next click on your slot that has the jet pack targeting through ISBoxer. Pro-tip, the portal on the enemy vessel you can use to return to your own ship. It's faster and doesn't get you cleaved as you leap past the boss going back. Gunship you could in theory box the cannon, but if you're doing melee it's typically melee that attacks.

Saurfang is all positioning prior to the pull so it's doable with boxing dps. More important to rein in AE and not pull beasts if you're melee, then collect your loot.

Festergut is nominally boxable since it's a hard stand and burn fight, the only place it gets shitty is if two of your toons get spores and one of those spores have to be delivered elsewhere. For example if a tank and a healer (both in melee area) both get spores (this is 10 man) the healer has to run out to deliver spores to the ranged. Similar if a healer and a melee or two ranged get the spores. Ranged casters you'd also be constantly collapsing and spreading out, costing dps time.

Rotface no way in hell. It's Grobbulus on steroids, the movement and getting away from the fire and outright coordination, you'll wipe the raid a lot. While you're out kiting your baby ooze to the big one your other dps just ate slime sprays and either died or your healers want to kill you.

Putricide? Nope. Way too much independent movement, such as the targeted toon having to kite while the others charge the ooze. Also a lot of items to avoid on the floor, and it's pretty easy to only get one of your toons snared.

Blood Prince Council makes Rotface look like Patchwerk. Constant movement, lots of stay out of the fire lots of massive knockbacks and most of those are caused by your toons being too close together. Especially not melee boxing.

Blood Queen you'll wipe the raid trying to box it while kiting one of your dps to not die to the purple clouds you're pooping out while one of your other dps is linked to one of the tanks and your third is busily vampiring and about to have to bite someone.

For reference, I've cleared Plagueworks on 10 man and we killed Council on 10 man last night and ran out of time before raid end on queen. On 25-man I've done rotface and fester and a set of attempts on putricide.

While an interesting idea, I don't see boxing multiple dps as very viable even if you use 2-3 of the same class. Using different classes or trying to mix melee and ranged/casters is even worse.

[puppychow]

Naxx was the last boxable raid instance, and even then only a few people really multiboxed it while it was relevant content (until ulduar release). Some of the fights in ulduar are boxable but most really aren't well suited to it.

Imo there really isn't any reason to multibox raiding anymore, the impetus during BC times was that there were only a few guilds that could do the newest raid instances per server, and so there was a "gap" between those who could do kara/gruul and those who could do BT/Sunwell. You were in one camp or another. Boxing made kara easier and you could spend badges on gear.

Now however, Blizzard has split raiding into 4 pieces - 10 vs 25, and hard (10/25) vs regular (10/25). Right now ICC is a little hard past the first wing, but in a month or two it will be doable by virtually anyone. I've pugged up to putricide in 10 man. So theres no real reason not to simply pug or join a small time guild if you want to see icecrown, no point in multiboxing raids.

Where multiboxing IS nice is farming frost orbs (=> primordial saronite). It is awesome that I have 8 level 80s and I can run 2 heroics a day in < 45 mins and end up with 16 frost orbs, plus another 40 orbs a week from the weekly raid (running each char solo/dual boxed). Its gearing up my main insanely fast, he already has all the BS patterns and DPS plate items crafted, and I'm on my way to getting shadows edge made.

its also fun just playing alts in different ways, imo the future of PVE multiboxing is multi-class comps so you can multibox the daily heroic for gold/badges, and then solo play various classes for fun. its very different doing ICC10 as a melee DPS than as a caster or a tank or a healer.

[BobGnarly]

I'll disagree with anybody who says something isn't possible to multibox. Not worth effort, maybe, but not possible?

Didn't our recent revelation that IWT can make melee boxing possible proof enough of that? Sure, that required IWT, but there was a period of time between the addition of that feature and anybody doing this where it was a) possible, and b) nobody thought it was possible.

When I was first boxing the Black Knight in ToC, I was seriously questioning whether or not it could be done. Not long after, I was snoozing through it.

Again, I know you guys probably mean it isn't worth the effort, but that's different than not possible.

[Niley]

I'll disagree with anybody who says something isn't possible to multibox. Not worth effort, maybe, but not possible?

Didn't our recent revelation that IWT can make melee boxing possible proof enough of that? Sure, that required IWT, but there was a period of time between the addition of that feature and anybody doing this where it was a) possible, and b) nobody thought it was possible.

When I was first boxing the Black Knight in ToC, I was seriously questioning whether or not it could be done. Not long after, I was snoozing through it.

Again, I know you guys probably mean it isn't worth the effort, but that's different than not possible.

I dont think we mean its not worth the effort. It would be impossible to be competitive while boxing.
Hardcore raiding = doing hardmodes, being competitive and putting out very high dps numbers, while doing different jobs, this is totally different from any heroic, when in pretty much 100% cases can stand there dpsing, sometimes you need to strafe left or right.
Raiding is very different, macros will not be the higher dps than solo(bad players aside), Your 3 toons would have to be identical, crit/haste etc, also dealing with single target buffs debuffs would be very hard.
IWT made melee possible, but it wasnt there until recently(iwt+click to move), before efficient melee boxing was possible but it basically was bad.

edit. Also that would nmean that you would have to box pure dps classes, no high end guild will bring 3 ele shamans, or in fact 3 hybrids of the same type(exclude melee)

[kadaan]

Boxing all the raid content is completely possible, but I don't believe it's feasible in a hardcore raid guild pushing progression content. It will always take longer to learn the fight, and you will never be able to perform 100% of what a good player playing the same character could. (Pretty broad statement, but I stand by it. The split second it takes to see which slave needs to do what is already a difference between a solo player and boxer.)

That isn't to say you can't be in a current-tier raiding guild tri-boxing dps. If you have bad players (who underperform for their gear or stand in fire all the time) then bringing a good tripleboxer may be better for the raid.

It's even harder with ICC and attempt-limited bosses. We killed putricide25 the first week on our 10th attempt. 1 wipe due to a boxer needing to learn the fight would have been enough to block us for the week.

[Niley]

Even when it comes to trolling, I'm a baddie!

pwongggg is trolling me!

[Shodokan]

I am not talking about doing hard modes. Though i understand people could have taken it that way as i used the word hardcore. But that was not the intent. Most servers do not have guilds that are capable of pushing hard modes unless they are a top guild... and top guilds would not have boxers in them unless they were superb which in most cases isn't possible.

[kadaan]

What did you mean by "hardcore raiding mindset"? If your goal isn't to compete for the top rank spots on your server and you just want to see content at whatever pace you can, then isn't that the definition of a casual raiding guild?

[Niley]

pwongggg is trolling me!

Qouting(is that even a word?) myself, just wanted to say that Poing is another boxer in my guild, he's really really good player and i think he was being serious here.
He just doesn't post as much as I do, but he's not a troll ;)

[poing]

i probably don't make myself clear when i post.

all i meant was that even if it's hard, you can give it a try. boxing is about pushing the limits of what you can do, no point in not seeing how far you can get. you may not be able to handle hard modes, but you can learn a lot about fight mechanics from doing rather than observing.

[Zaelar]

Click to move means you can move 3+ people in different directions at the same time without worrying about autorun overshooting. A lot of the things posted that people say isn't possible are possible because of this. Also sometimes it's surprising what you can do when you overgear something.

[Jheusse]

Click to move and interact with target are godsends, ever since I came over from DAoC many years ago (heh) I always lamented the loss of /stick and /face that were implemented there, and now we have analogues of those commands here.

That said, interact with target and click to move are great when you're talking about several toons running in different directions to arrive at the same spot. Beautiful.

But when you have one toon kiting 20-25 yards away from the boss and the other two having to run through the boss to avoid slime spray, the load on a boxer's attention and coordination spike a ton. That's Rotface. Putricide having one toon kite gas cloud while the others attack I could only see being feasible with melee. Blood Prince Council I don't see boxing successful for quite a while, it's got a lot of the Vashj vibe of 8 different tasks/jobs going on at once and if anyone muffs it it's a wipe.

I take hardcore raiding to be of the "top meters or be benched" crews, with mandatory specs, mandatory attendance, swapping toons from the bench per fight as needed, the ones who used to respec between fights before dual specs. That's the mindset of a hardcore raiding environment, even if every factor isn't present you know what I mean. I don't see a boxer being welcomed to an environment like that unless there's other factors at work (the GL happens to be your friend from high school or the like), because hardcore raiding it's about the raider conforming to the raid, and boxing in a raid requires the raid to conform to the boxer somewhat.

Eventually all of ICC will be boxed I'm sure, between the BoT (buff over time) mechanic, people outgearing things, and several of our very talented (and dextrous) boxers who have the credibility on their servers to form a raid specifically to try it. I could see some of the techniques from boxing the safety dance working for example on the Council.

But hardcore? As in pre-nerf serious progression dictatorial type raiding? No. Tuned too tightly and progression guilds are able to recruit non-bads who individually will outperform the dps output of the boxer's individual toons.

[Stealthy]

Qouting(is that even a word?) myself, just wanted to say that Poing is another boxer in my guild, he's really really good player and i think he was being serious here.
He just doesn't post as much as I do, but he's not a troll ;)

LoL...when I see an account with only a few posts to its name, making what looks like troll posts I just assumed it was another multiboxing hater. :)

But all good - no harm, no foul. :cool:

Cheers,
S.

[zanthor]

I was actually worried about the future of my 3x mages once they hit 80. Is Naxx really that unfriendly to multiboxers? How about Ulduar? I've never even seen Ulduar and I've only ran Naxx as a single boxer about a year ago and don't really recall any fights that seemed particularly movement intensive except for Thaddius and Heigan the Unclean. Could anyone with experience DPS multiboxing give me some opinions on the feasibility of 3x ranged dps in raids?

As of 3.3 why would you even try to raid Naxx or Ulduar? Simply bang out heroics for 2 weeks and you can gear 5 toons to be ready for ICC25.

That said, I've boxed Naxx in it's entirety, Thaddius is aproblem, but everything else is pretty straight forward. We actually got safety dance :).

[Fursphere]

Simply bang out heroics for 2 weeks and you can gear 5 toons to be ready for ICC25

*cough*

I did it in a weekend.

[Fuzzyboy]

Starting off with a bang on this one. Once again, you're dead wrong. Niley is pulling 10k dps with his Shaman (pre-ICC release).

That's in heroics on a lvl 82 boss with heroism right and cooldowns right? There' s big difference between pulling 10k dps on a 300 second fight on a lvl 83 raid boss and on a 15-sec fight on a lvl 82 heroic boss :-)

[Firmpete]

I did Saurfang with 3 dps once when we had some players dc.
Other than Saurfang the possibilities are rather limited. Not impossible, impossible is nothing. And even a stationary fight as Saurfang requires you do be very carefull with the bloodbeasts. (Because being hit by them gives saurfang his stacks)

But as the topic has hardcore mindset in the title: On a single player I do more dps manually than macroed, and having to move 3 players to move out of stuff makes 3 players not doing dps.

Eventually with enough gear in the raid fights will get easier and easier, thus making boxing them more viable. But at this moment in time (progress in my guild, my situation) it's just not viable.

Now currently I do run Togc with 4 dps or 1 healer and 3 dps. But that's farm raids and even then only to fill empty raidspots.

[Niley]

That's in heroics on a lvl 82 boss with heroism right and cooldowns right? There' s big difference between pulling 10k dps on a 300 second fight on a lvl 83 raid boss and on a 15-sec fight on a lvl 82 heroic boss :-)
not quite, it was on a boss dummy, em popped first after em ran out i used heroism. No fire elementals, single target.
http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/6241/wowscrnshot122409232049.jpg
This is from few months ago.


On my shaman in raid setting i can pull over 10k dps(solo of course)
heres a log:
http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/11441787#damageout
close to 11k....but not quite there yet.

[Fuzzyboy]

not quite, it was on a boss dummy, em popped first after em ran out i used heroism. No fire elementals, single target.
http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/6241/wowscrnshot122409232049.jpg
This is from few months ago.


So most of the fight with either lust or EM on a short duration fight (although admittedly longer than initially assumed) :-)... You can easily pump up numbers by controlling the context - ie. lock/dk/druid debuff + lust + arcane mage spamming arcane blast. Sure, he would be out of mana fairly quickly, but you'd see very high numbers.

I don't think competitive progression (as in "hardcore") is really an option while multiboxing, but then again perhaps dual-boxing with a class that has an easy rotation might work. Either way I think the thing to keep in mind is that in terms of raiding, boxing doesn't really have any advantages (as opposed to for example coordinated burst in pvp), so the only reason to really do it would be if a raid was short on dps'ers - which these days is a fairly unlikely scenario :P

[Tiburon502]

The orbs in Nileys screen by his bars is the left HP and right mana, and if so yours or the targets? Was wondering because it says 53k on left.

[Niley]

The orbs in Nileys screen by his bars is the left HP and right mana, and if so yours or the targets? Was wondering because it says 53k on left.
that was my paladins hp, its around 55.4k now.

[Zaelar]

On my shaman in raid setting i can pull over 10k dps(solo of course)
heres a log:
http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/11441787#damageout
close to 11k....but not quite there yet.

You didn't switch to blood beasts(except for chain lightning bounces) and you got hit 12 times. Either you're bad or this was a farm kill and you didn't care and were just trying to inflate the damage meter. Considering you got hit 12 times without attacking the adds this begs the question, is the log bugged?

[Niley]

You didn't switch to blood beasts(except for chain lightning bounces) and you got hit 12 times. Either you're bad or this was a farm kill and you didn't care and were just trying to inflate the damage meter. Considering you got hit 12 times without attacking the adds this begs the question, is the log bugged?
Its not bugged, ele shaman = melee range(magma totem), not switching to adds, i let alts deal with that. We farm icc25 with 3 groups every week, its all farm on normal...
On hm i will have to unglyph TS and switch to adds obviously, here it doesn't matter at all, at the time this log was posted it was highest ele dps for that fight.

[Shodokan]

Good to see so much discussion.

[poing]

http://i49.tinypic.com/2iaueds.jpg

making progress!

[Zaelar]

It sounds like you were put in a position to inflate your own dps as much as possible as per your guild's strategy for downing him which isn't the position most people are in. You may have been number one but you didn't have much competition since I'm sure most ele shamans are involved with adds in some way.

I'm not sure what you mean by melee get hit though. Unless some bad person roots them in place or a melee does an aoe as they spawn the melee in my runs don't get hit that often.

[Niley]

It sounds like you were put in a position to inflate your own dps as much as possible as per your guild's strategy for downing him which isn't the position most people are in. You may have been number one but you didn't have much competition since I'm sure most ele shamans are involved with adds in some way.

I'm not sure what you mean by melee get hit though. Unless some bad person roots them in place or a melee does an aoe as they spawn the melee in my runs don't get hit that often.

Top 30 eles are in the same position, Im not really sure what point youre trying to make here? I killed every boss in this game, from lvl 60 kt to latest one, i think we might have an idea of what we're doing. No one died and boss died very quickly, even if i do take care of add my dps doesn't drop below 9.7-10k.
Ive been top 5 ele shamans in us since gruul in tbc(back when wws had a scoreboard), as much as i would like to care what you think, i dont even know who you are...saying that i didn't have much competition just shows me that you have no clue what youre talking about.
This is possibly the easiest boss in icc, ive 3-4 boxed him before without any issues.
Now back to the subject of 3 dpsing please, if you have more questions/concerns you can find me in game, send me a pm or join db IRC.