I'm sick of the "random" dungeon finder

[Catamer]

it is seriously weighted to HoS, Oculus & HoR.
I found a blue post about how they weight the instances to those you haven't done.

I logged on with my beta team and got HoS which I can't complete so I bail and logon with my main team and guess what.... HoS.
at least my main team has no problems with HoS.

[Ogloo]

well i guess back in the day before this system came out when u wanted to farm some heroics, u ran UK, UP,..... (aka all the easy ones), so now it knows uve done UK a billion times, but uve never done the new ones of HOS.. maybe thats y?

but yeah that sucks kinda, but at least its just not totally random,

[Lyonheart]

or.........LTP 8)




hehe..jk.. when i get one on my mixed team that i know will be hard to finish, I just kill the first boss or two. That way i eat up the debuff timer and don't waste time. I get a badge or two and just try again once the debuff timer is gone.

[Gadzooks]

it is seriously weighted to HoS, Oculus & HoR.
I found a blue post about how they weight the instances to those you haven't done.

I logged on with my beta team and got HoS which I can't complete so I bail and logon with my main team and guess what.... HoS.
at least my main team has no problems with HoS.

Have you tried changing what you're looking for with the drop down menu in the LFG tool, and selecting specific dungeons? I believe they still reward the extra badges, they (Blizzard) want people using it, so as long as you go through the LFG tool, you get them - I THINK.

But at the very least, you CAN select specific dungeons.

[Coltimar]

I am sure that it weighs dungeons based on gear. On my main team I get the same ones over and over (HoS, Occulus and UP). UP isn't hard, but it's all I ever get on this team. I have gotten UK once and DTK once since the dungeon finder came out. On my second team (blues and BoE epics) I get UK, DTK and CoT.

[Talos]

it is seriously weighted to HoS, Oculus & HoR.
I found a blue post about how they weight the instances to those you haven't done.

I logged on with my beta team and got HoS which I can't complete so I bail and logon with my main team and guess what.... HoS.
at least my main team has no problems with HoS.

I cant find the correct link but it has been stated that the random dungeon is serverside based and changes every 15 minutes. Logging out 1 team and loggin back a 2nd team will give you the SAME dungeon within those 15 minutes.

The best way to avoid dungeons you dont want is do as I and others here do:

Login, queue for random. if you dont like it leave dungeon and go do your dailys, crafting, pvp or select a dungeon of your choice.
After the 15 minutes 'deserter' debuff is gone (or you finished the dungeon you selected manually) queue again for the random.
If again you dont like it, leave instance and continue your dailys (you pop back from where you entered).

In this setting i am able to do my dailys, finish my crafts, do the daily pvp battleground or farm PoS heroic trash for hilt inbetween the random heroics i like.

[Catamer]

I got HoS 4 times today, I logged off with the beta team and waited at least an hour and got HoS all over again ( 4 times! ).

[moosejaw]

I experienced the same thing with a team in the 20's. They were eligible for 4 different dungeons but continually received gnomer as a random pick. The tool is flawed imho.

[Malekyth]

I don't see this. My first two heroic randoms were Occulus and HoS, but it's been a fairly even distribution ever since. Maybe it wants you to at least try to complete the randoms it throws at you (I got stuck on the last boss in Occulus, and finished HoS), and that will clear it from your prospects. "You need to eat at least one bite of everything before you can leave the table ..."

[jettzypher]

it does seem to push the same ones regularly. ive done HoL more times than i care to count since they came out with it... i remember them saying that your chances of being randomly selected for an instance goes down when you're already saved, but thats a bunch of crap if you can get the same one multiple times in a row.

[Fursphere]

I have noticed a couple of things:

1) if you pug people, it'll find an "average" gearscore and put people at each extreme of that (ie if you're low, you're going to get at least one really really high person, and vice versa - this is probably to increase success rates).

2) When I run solo - it appears my guildies get the SAME instances in the same time frame. I notice this by who gets what achievement.

3) It seems to throw you into instances that your NEED achivements for. Has anyone considered that they get Occulas so much is becuase there are five achievements for that damn place, and most of you probably have zero of them? I get Azjol-Nerub a lot, and I have not completed the first boss achivement (watch him die).

Food for thought.

[Malekyth]

3) It seems to throw you into instances that your NEED achivements for. Has anyone considered that they get Occulas so much is becuase there are five achievements for that damn place, and most of you probably have zero of them? I get Azjol-Nerub a lot, and I have not completed the first boss achivement (watch him die).


It's an interesting idea, but my experience doesn't support that. I do a few daily heroics every day, have no Occulus achievements (including completing the dungeon), and have only gotten it twice.

Edit: Though thinking more about it ... maybe it does bias instances toward ones you lack achievements in, but doesn't favor them more heavily based on the number of achievements left to be done, i.e. Occulus is as likely to be on the "favored" list as any other with missing achievements. It's more likely to stay on that list, because it takes longer to knock out five achievements in a hard dungeon than two in an easy one. I only have about half the heroic achievements so if your idea is correct, it'd make sense that I'd get a more even distribution than some people are reporting -- I have a lot more "favored" instances on my list. Huh.

[Firmpete]

Hm. For me the rng seems to be pretty random. I got oc, hor, toc in a row too. But also uk, gd, nexus.

But rng does funny things to your head. I have strong memories of the up tanksword never dropping only to drop the night before I get the new 3.3 one (forgot name. Not at pc)
Also a 15 minute random uk is less sticky than a 15 minute wait

Anyways. Programming 101 teaches that in computersience there's no random, only pseudo-random. But my rny rng seems to be ok :)

[Fizzler]

I seem to get Ank Old Kingdom a lot for some reason. I have done at least 50 of the randoms and have never gotten Hall of Lightning or Stone. That seems rather odd to me. I get Nexus and Ank Old Kingdom the most.

[Gormand]

Gundrak is my rng's dungeon of choice. I have copped it, finished it then switched to another toon and got it again TWICE.
But apart form that one dungeon I have a pretty even spread, Ive had OK, AN, Ocu, HoS, HoL, Nex, UK, UP, FoS, PoS, ToC and any I have missed except for HoR. None seem to appear a whole lot more then others, maybe HoS but not by much.

[Pallarfo]

For me it's a motivator to try to get those instances done. I've completed some dungeons which I never did without the tool.
Gundrak (colosus) , Oculus (end boss) , HoS (event) and Azjol Nerub (end boss) seem to be failing though, the others are done in a short time.

[Svpernova09]

I spent the long weekend gearing my protadin. That's right, the bear has gone Paladin. I probably won't replace my bear, but it's amusing to see how easy paladin tanking is.

Below information is based on solo leveling / play unless otherwise stated:

When I leveled from 72-80 over the past 2 weeks, I was always in que for a dungeon finder. From 72-74 I always got Nexus, from 74-77, I always got DTK, from 77-79, I always got Gundrak. If I was a totally new player, I wouldn't think any other instances existed from 72-80.

Now the cool part I really didn't mind about the dungeon finder was the constant change in what I was doing. Ques for DPS were around 10-15 minutes, sometimes near 30. So I would go do a few quests and a que would pop, then back to quests. I ended up hitting 80 with only completing Borean Tundra, Howling Fjord, Dragonblight, and about 40ish quests in Icecrown. I was also wearing the heirloom chest and shoulders. So between the 20% XP bonus and only 3 complete zones and A LOT of random dungeons. I went from 68-80. Beats the hell out of grinding AV imo.

So this past weekend, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, I spent doing nothing but random heroics. I didn't box at all. All day Friday and Saturday I qued as DPS. Doing quests in between. I got bumped out of a few runs since I was in quest blues / greens / some dungeon gear. But I managed to farm 4 pc T9 in 2 days, so all day Sunday, I qued as a tank. Instant ques were really, really nice. I got some odd looks as my health is still kinda of low. but I farmed enough badges Sunday to get my 5th T9 piece and get the Triumph tanking ring.

So now that you know how little of a life I had this weekend, here are my experiences with which dungeons I got from the finder. Here is a link to armory of the bosses I killed:

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-statistics.xml?r=Kil%27jaeden&cn=Bearcatadin&gn=Legion+of+Boom

DTK: 12
UK: 5
UP: 5
CoS: 5
OK: 5
AN: 3
HoS: 3
HoL: 3
Nexus: 3
VH: 3
Gundrak: 2
Occ: 2
FoS: 2
ToC: 1
PoS: 1
HoR: 1

Random Lich King Heroics completed: 43

The only runs I bailed on, were 3 total failures of OCC, and 1 OCC run where we just couldn't down the last boss. So outside of the above numbers, I got 4 more OCC ques. If I had completed them all, OCC would have been at 6. Putting DTK and OCC at the most common dungeons the finder threw me in.

All of this was on a single, fresh 80 with 0 achievements starting out. All these numbers were from the random dungeons where I qued solo, except for 1 where I qued with a full group.

[Fursphere]

Nice info there Svper. I basically did the exact same thing, except on my warrior. And the results, even though I didn't record them as you did (good idea btw), look / feel similar. UP and UK were big hitters for me. And if AN wasn't locked out, I would get it for sure.

I did notice that as I was doing instances last night (and the day before), people were getting achivements in ones I had just finished. Its like the server is on a "similar" rotation - even if its random. (ie - if its 2pm - you're gettting Gundrak, lolz)

[Svpernova09]

Nice info there Svper. I basically did the exact same thing, except on my warrior. And the results, even though I didn't record them as you did (good idea btw), look / feel similar. UP and UK were big hitters for me. And if AN wasn't locked out, I would get it for sure.

I did notice that as I was doing instances last night (and the day before), people were getting achivements in ones I had just finished. Its like the server is on a "similar" rotation - even if its random. (ie - if its 2pm - you're gettting Gundrak, lolz)

lol I noticed the morning had a preference to DTK. I never got DTK past noon, I always found that odd. What was really annoying, the first 2 days, I picked up some tank gear from boss drops, but I never got any ret gear, bosses just weren't dropping DPS plate. it wasn't until late Saturday that I finally started getting some DPS upgrades. Running FoS/PoS/HoR in heirlooms+ greens = lol.

[d0z3rr]

I can't clear any heroics yet, so I still queue for normal dungeons to get triumph badges. It always picks HoL, which I have only completed once and will never care to complete ever again. Last night I got HoL 4 times, and 1 Occulus before I gave up.

[Drizzit]

I heard there is an item lvl requirment to do heroics. Is this true? Just wanted to know because i have 3 heirloom items that i am using (chest, shoulder, weapon) and know that they have an item lvl 1 one so wondering if this is going to hurt me.

[Svpernova09]

I heard there is an item lvl requirment to do heroics. Is this true? Just wanted to know because i have 3 heirloom items that i am using (chest, shoulder, weapon) and know that they have an item lvl 1 one so wondering if this is going to hurt me.


There is a gear check, it's VERY lenient though, there's a blue post on MMO-C, (but it's down atm) it pretty much says it saves the harder heroics (occ, HoR) until your in mostly blues.

[Starbuck_Jones]

Anyone know what level you have to be to do random non-heroics. My new group is an 80 paladin and 4x75 shaman and I cant do any random normals with them yet. It would be nice to pick up a pair of emblems a day so when they do hit 80 they will only be a few away from some major upgrades.

[Multibocks]

GD this stupid thing. ToC, HoS, HoS, HoL(bad for melee team), VH (easy, except I got water boss that throws my guys all over) then I got ToC again! Then HoS....

FUCK YOU BLIZZARD.

Random dungeon finder really really likes ToC and HoS for my melee team. I've spent 3 hours today just trying to get my daily done. GAWD.

edit: I would take any of the following: UK, UP, Nexus, OK, AN, DTK, Gundrak(at least its worth 3 badges), VH(no water boss prz), even the new ICC dungeons, but NOoooO it's gotta give me ToC and HoS.

[Svpernova09]

Anyone know what level you have to be to do random non-heroics. My new group is an 80 paladin and 4x75 shaman and I cant do any random normals with them yet. It would be nice to pick up a pair of emblems a day so when they do hit 80 they will only be a few away from some major upgrades.

Thats odd, I was doing randoms everyday as early as level 72.

[Fursphere]

That's because of the mixed group. 80 + 75 = no go.

Drop the 80 and you'll be able to queue up. (because the random normal for the 80 is no available to the 75s)

[Exanth]

I have a couple of full group teams at lvl 71 and lvl 75, plus my 80 team.

With my druid team I can queue because one can be a tank, one a healer, 3 dps.

Once I'm in I can then kick the tank and invite my 80 prot pally. This also works with my new lvl 27ish group. I'm wary to do it though as I don't want the levels to be different. At level 21 and 22 with the new team I couldn't get in - had to grind out a bit more xp and get them all to 22. Silly really.

On the new group I'm less than impressed with the randomness as well. I played last night for many hours constantly hitting it when the debuff ran out and all I got for 3 full levels was Gnomer.... again and again and again. I did the one RFC that came up just to reward the server for picking anything but Gnomer.

The only nice thing is the random bag loot. After about 3 random runs I've got best in spot gear for all 5 guys.

[Clone]

If I get a dungeon I dont like (Occulus, HoR, AK) I usually just kill the first boss as that means you are saved there. Ive done a lot of heroics and Im yet to come up against one I dont like after getting saved.


EDIT: I know its possible to get a dungeon you are saved to but the odds are lowered.

[Trick]

I've actually taken a step back from 5-boxing and revived my 3-box Shaman team, and have ended up enjoying the Finder. I've gone from blue lvl 78 crafted pvp gear when 3.3 released to having pretty much nothing for PvE to spend Triumph or lower badges on by Christmas.

Being able to have a random tank and healer assigned to my DPS team was simply amazing. Even more amazing was the fact that very few (less than 5% I'd say) of tanks or healers simply refused to run with me. Many were curious to see how it would work. Most were impressed with the speed which we started blowing up bosses about 1/2 way through the gearing. And a few times we ran into a player who'd tanked or healed for us before, and would then spend at least part of the run bitching about random DPS they'd been put with at other times and how much they appreciated the focus fire of a boxer.

But as for the "randomness" of the Finder, I'm actually glad that it works whatever way it does. There is now no heroic that I fear any longer. I'm more willing to do a full run of Occulus than even half of the tanks and heals I come across. I've reached the point where Insanity at the end of OK isn't a real issue. HoS is now a joke as I have the macros to spread out for Gruul-Lite; the event was never an issue for this setup, CL + Fire Nova = Win.

Maybe it really is true that what doesn't kill you (or in WoW's case, even that which DOES kill you) will only make you stronger...

[Phanes]

There is a gear check, it's VERY lenient though, there's a blue post on MMO-C, (but it's down atm) it pretty much says it saves the harder heroics (occ, HoR) until your in mostly blues.

You know if that is true maybe use the gear switcher to make everyone naked que up then gear up once you hit the dungeon. Might be a way to get easy dungeons over and over again. Mabye you can find a sweet spot that always puts you in GD or something.

BTW I have been keeping track. I have ran 33 randoms and 17 of them have been ToC.... I hate ToC....

[kadaan]

I recently hit 80 on an alt and farmed random heroics for a while, and here's my statistics:

3 Ingvar the Plunderer kills (Heroic Utgarde Keep)
3 Keristrasza kills (Heroic Nexus)
3 Anub'arak kills (Heroic Azjol-Nerub)
3 Herald Volazj kills (Heroic Ahn'kahet)
3 The Prophet Tharon'ja kills (Heroic Drak'Tharon Keep)
3 Gal'darah kills (Heroic Gundrak)
2 Sjonnir the Ironshaper kills (Heroic Halls of Stone)
2 Loken kills (Heroic Halls of Lightning)
2 King Ymiron kills (Heroic Utgarde Pinnacle)
2 Cyanigosa kills (Heroic Violet Hold)
1 Ley-Guardian Eregos kills (Heroic Oculus)
1 Mal'Ganis defeated (Heroic CoT: Stratholme)
0 The Black Knight kills (Heroic Trial of the Champion)
0 Devourer of Souls kills (Heroic Forge of Souls)
0 Scourgelord Tyrannus kills (Heroic Pit of Saron)
0 Lich King escapes (Heroic Halls of Reflection)

The order I got the heroics in is:
1. Ahn'kahet: The Old Kingdom
2. Gundrak
3. Drak'Tharon Keep
4. Utgarde Keep
5. Utgarde Pinnacle
6. Halls of Lightning
7. The Culling of Stratholme
8. Azjol-Nerub
9. Halls of Stone
10. The Violet Hold
11. The Nexus
12. The Oculus


All heroics were done as random, none were queued for directly.
All were queued solo as dps.
All groups were successful clears, and I never left any groups early.
I still haven't gotten ToC or the ICC 5mans (even though I'm able to select ToC and FoS in the dungeon finder, so my gear is high enough.)

[Svpernova09]

You know if that is true maybe use the gear switcher to make everyone naked que up then gear up once you hit the dungeon. Might be a way to get easy dungeons over and over again. Mabye you can find a sweet spot that always puts you in GD or something.

BTW I have been keeping track. I have ran 33 randoms and 17 of them have been ToC.... I hate ToC....


This doesn't work. I've tried a variety of things to "trick" the system, looks like they designed it very well (inorite) It seems to take measure of the gear you have on you, in your bank, and in your bags. Queing up an entire team naked, with gear in the bank, made no recognizable difference in the dungeons selected.

[Fursphere]

It probably caches the highest score you've ever had.

In other news, QQ LESS.

http://www.wow.com/2010/01/05/blizzard-run-oculus-win-fabulous-prizes/

Occulus is getting MORE LOOT (+2 badges, 8 total for random run, highest in the game right now) and a chance to drop the blue drake that Malygos used to drop.

Although this only addresses people who auto-bail when they get the instance (I'm guilty myself). It does not address the issues of players completely failing over and over again not being able to grasp the simple concept of the drakes (its three fucking buttons people! come on!).

For us boxers - its still a pain in the ass until you master the five green drake kiting strat.

[Trick]

Even happier that I went to 3-boxing now. I just let the tank and healer, well, tank and heal for Occulus. 3 bronze drakes, and I just keep doing my DPS job.

[Lyonheart]

5 bronze drakes is very easy now...it was easy before, but WAY easy now. watch Moos video!

[Multibocks]

Im too lazy to make the macros.

[Fursphere]

Im too lazy to make the macros.

QFT.

I write too many macros as it is....

[Trick]

Make what macros? I don't use any additional or special macros when I'm on Bronze Drakes.

I just recently realized that keys which the vehicle doesn't override still work in the background. For example, my F1 is a macro to assist the leader and cast Chain Lightning. Well, when on a vehicle the Assist portion still works. Change target, press F1 to make the others assist on my target. Start spamming drake attacks. I thought it was pretty simple once I realized this.

[Multibocks]

How do you time stop on only one drake while the other continue dpsing? See its fine if you want all your guys to mash the same button, but once you introduce a little complexity it requires macros or a new keymap.

[Svpernova09]

How do you time stop on only one drake while the other continue dpsing? See its fine if you want all your guys to mash the same button, but once you introduce a little complexity it requires macros or a new keymap.

When I was trying OCC, I just setup keymaps just for use with the drakes. I had it setup so timestop was on round robin, and I had it setup to where 4 toons where spamming 1, and the 5th was nuking. I never actually got it down, but I had the boss to 15% before whelps ate me. I haven't tried since the nerfs.

[Fursphere]

The Oculus had some additional changes made. The Planar Anomlies during the Eregos encounter will have a shorter duration and do reduced damage, some of the drakes above Varos’s platform have been removed, and the drakes controlled by players will move a little faster.

MORE NERFS to Oculus! /holy crap

source: http://www.mmo-champion.com/

[Drizzit]

Don't drakes scale with gear now?

That is the one thing that i hated about this. That you geared didn't matter. Yes, i know that it is the player not the game, but if i am working my ass off to get raid gear then heroics should be a joke.

[Fursphere]

Yes, they have scaled with gear for a long time now.. it was recently buffed again so gear added even more.

[Kang]

I guess I've been very lucky considering I haven't seen Occulus appear once in the random dungeon finder. It's a shame since I haven't completed it yet.

[kadaan]

For Occulus I just temporarily replaced my 1 and 3 buttons for eregos to nuke/channel on 3, and channel/nuke on the other 2. Hit 1, count to 3, hit 3, count to 3, hit 1, count to 3, etc. For timestop I just hit 2 in the respective window.

I failed a couple times my first try because I was rotating the nuke/channel too fast (with the GCD) and it wasn't doing enough damage. After waiting 3s between switches I killed him easily with all drakes around 50% life. I haven't boxed it since the drakes started scaling with gear, so it's going to be even easier now.


Staying on-topic, I _finally_ got ToC as my random heroic last night!

[Drizzit]

I now officially HATE ret pallies. They que for tank, healer, and dps. I got 2 of them in 2 different randoms.

First was the tank. They walked in without a shield and in ret spec i was like are you going to tank ret? He never answered, and then began pulling. I think looked at his buffs and he didn't have his tanking buff on. I told him about this and he didn't do anything. The whole time i was just looking at his health and the priests mana bar just drain so quick. Now this was the first time the priest said she was healing an instance. Every pull he would yell at the priest saying that his health needs to be at full AT ALL TIMES. So after the second wipe he went to tank 1 mob and everyone was able to pull agro off of it. He then yells at dps saying that we need to watch agro. I then voted to take him off and in 1 second he was off. The priest then was like i am going to leave because i suck, after i talked to him i told him that he was healing a dps and not a tank. Then we finally got a real pally tank, first thing i ask is "do you have a shield" he was like "lol, yes i do. why wouldn't i?". Well we destroyed the instance and the healer was actually a great healer. There where a couple times that we pulled too much and we all lived, granted that i threw up a couple dots on the tank, but being feral it doesn't do much.

The second time i did a random we got a pally for a healer. Again i saw the pally without a shield, but wasn't too worried about it because he is just healing. Then looked at his spec and saw that it was ret. Asked if he was going to switch to healing spec, all he said was just start pulling. The tank started yelling at him because all the pulls he almost died because the pally heals suck. The pally then said, well maybe if you didn't suck then i wouldn't have to heal you as much. Every pull he was out of mana too. So being sick of pallies i just left the group and now i am only doing 1 instance a day to get my badges until 80.

It just seems like it is the pally that que for all three. I haven't seen a druid do it yet.

[Trick]

How do you time stop on only one drake while the other continue dpsing? See its fine if you want all your guys to mash the same button, but once you introduce a little complexity it requires macros or a new keymap.

Takes me less than 5 seconds in Keyclone to put Time Stop into my Round-Robin. And most times I don't even do that. I just use my mouse to click Time Stop for the toon I want to cast it.

[Pallarfo]

lol, that so sucks.
I've been into pugs when the holy priest (healer) started to dps since she didn't have to heal me, or needed to throw a renew now and then.
Instances go really quick then :)

[Fursphere]

I now officially HATE ret pallies. They que for tank, healer, and dps. I got 2 of them in 2 different randoms.

First was the tank. They walked in without a shield and in ret spec i was like are you going to tank ret? He never answered, and then began pulling. I think looked at his buffs and he didn't have his tanking buff on. I told him about this and he didn't do anything. The whole time i was just looking at his health and the priests mana bar just drain so quick. Now this was the first time the priest said she was healing an instance. Every pull he would yell at the priest saying that his health needs to be at full AT ALL TIMES. So after the second wipe he went to tank 1 mob and everyone was able to pull agro off of it. He then yells at dps saying that we need to watch agro. I then voted to take him off and in 1 second he was off. The priest then was like i am going to leave because i suck, after i talked to him i told him that he was healing a dps and not a tank. Then we finally got a real pally tank, first thing i ask is "do you have a shield" he was like "lol, yes i do. why wouldn't i?". Well we destroyed the instance and the healer was actually a great healer. There where a couple times that we pulled too much and we all lived, granted that i threw up a couple dots on the tank, but being feral it doesn't do much.

The second time i did a random we got a pally for a healer. Again i saw the pally without a shield, but wasn't too worried about it because he is just healing. Then looked at his spec and saw that it was ret. Asked if he was going to switch to healing spec, all he said was just start pulling. The tank started yelling at him because all the pulls he almost died because the pally heals suck. The pally then said, well maybe if you didn't suck then i wouldn't have to heal you as much. Every pull he was out of mana too. So being sick of pallies i just left the group and now i am only doing 1 instance a day to get my badges until 80.

It just seems like it is the pally that que for all three. I haven't seen a druid do it yet.

SImple solution.

Ask the pally to change to the appropriate spec. If they don't respond / refuse, explain to the group that they need to kick this player, and vote kick. Works almost every time. Thats why the kick system was put in.

[Malekyth]

Even simpler solution: multiboxing rocks. :)

[Starbuck_Jones]

Last I heard and its been not too long ago. They made it so the drakes will also benefit from buffs. So if you mount up then have one guy buff the drakes it helps.

Few times ive cleared Oculus its been 50/50. Disaster, or its done in like 20 min. I havent cleared it on my own yet as my new group is only 76.