Origins of the Shammy+Pally Fad/Phase/Craze/Insanity(?) [Archive]

Vyndree

01-08-2008, 07:58 PM

On my way home from work last night, Suvega and I had a little chat about the sudden influx of shaman, or shaman + paladin groups.

Musing about my own situation when I stumbled across dual-boxing.com, the world was flooded with 1x priest 4x warlock groups. There basically WAS no other group makeup due to the ability for aoe healing, pet tanking, and mobile dps that was warlock/priest.

All of a sudden, it looks like everyone and their mom is rolling shaman. Now, since I like to consider myself a beautiful and unique snowflake, this got me searching...

This is my observation about the current trend:

Jun 08 (http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=453) - the use of tanking classes as an option isn't really even seen in this example. If you look at the results (as of today):
4 Warlock 1 Priest 35%
5 Shaman 26%
4 Mages 1 Priest 13%
You can see the 4 lock/mage + 1 priest setups solidly on the board, most likely Xzin-spawned.
Of course, I have no idea who voted recently on this, so we may have a skewed view since it's not a perfect snapshot, but by the list 4x shaman 1x paladin wasn't even considered a viable/popular group makeup. 5x Shaman look like they're just starting to bud into a viable class makeup.
At the end of the post, you can see myself blow up on the viability of shaman as a healing class, whereas everyone else seems to be pro-priest. Nothing wrong with priests, I just like reading old posts of me being my stubborn pro-shaman self.

Jul 9 (http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=566) - A link comes out of nowhere to �box's 5 shaman videos

Sep 1 (http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=1071) - Tequilale's shammy multiboxing video (pve)

Sep 12 (http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=1182) - Vyndree's RFK video showing 4 shaman + warrior tank

Sep 24 (http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=1315) - Another link to �box's 5 shaman videos

Sep 26 (http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=1332) - Vyndree's SM video, again 4x shaman 1x warrior tank

Nov 9 (http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=1785) - Ellay releases 4x shaman arena PvP video. The world explodes.

Nov 28 (http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=2084) - empeha posts 5x shaman strat run

Dec 3 (http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=2160) - Paladins as tanks start to join the list
But, not with shaman... However, 5x shaman begins to emerge:5x Shamans! 41%
Priest 4 Warlocks 19%
Priest, 4 Mages 12%
Again, who knows from which dates people were voting. They could still be voting to this day and skewing all of my data. So take this as you will.

Dec 9 (http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=2277) - Ellay-lovers everywhere wonder what they should roll with their 4x shaman

Dec 10 (http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=2313) - Class selection FAQ released

Most common setups:
Tank/Priest/Some-Mix-of-Locks-and/or-Mages
Tank/Priestx4 (holy-nuke or shadow)

Paladin is the most common tank. Shaman subbing in for priest is also fairly common.
Shaman, sadly, do not make the "most common" cut in either 4/5x shaman, or shaman + tank.

Dec 11 (http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=2120) - 5x shaman PvE viability is questioned

Dec 11 (http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=2318) - Vyndree's video of 4x shaman, this time with 1x paladin tank in RFD

Dec 11 (http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=2320) - Vyndree's ZF video, again with 4x shaman 1x paladin

Dec 19 (http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=2535) - Remote's 5x shaman Heroic SP vid

Dec 20 (http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=2553) - Remote's 5x shaman Heroic Sethekk vid

Dec 29 (http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=2736) - Remote's 4x shaman arena PvP

Jan 1 (http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=2274) - Los submits to the dark side of the force, and abandons his hunters for shaman. More videos from Los.

i changed from my current group to a pally and 4 shammies . Think that in the end run the group its self would run a lot better.

Jan 4 (http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=2924) - Ellay's 4x shaman EoTS

Jan 6 (http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=2989) - Vyndree's 4x shaman 1x paladin world pvp

It seems, now, that every other new multiboxer is rolling some form of 4-5x shaman, or 4x shaman 1x prot paladin. Which brings me to...

My Hypothesis:
People roll what they think is exciting. What gets people excited? Videos.

Prior to Ellay/Xbox/Vyndree/Remote/Los posting this multitude of shaman videos, the only videos I could find were primarily 4x lock, 1x priest (i.e. Bradster: RFK (http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=749), BFD (http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=739), ZF (http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=1253), PvP (http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=975) and more (http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=1355) -- not to mention Ughmahedhurtz (http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=1391) and others (http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=1606)). I believe the sudden influx of shaman videos is the cause for this massive Shaman/Shaman+Pally influenza that's sweeping over the forum.

Now that I've proven that you're all lemmings and under our frapsing and video-editing powers, I'd like to say that resistance is futile. You will all be assimilated.

P.S. STOP PMing ME PEOPLE! I AM NOT THE LIBRARY ON SHAMAN MULTIBOXING. Make another forum thread of the billion shaman threads already out there and there are many other people who can tell you what you already would have known if you had done a search (http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums2/search.php).

Kthxbai.

Suvega

01-08-2008, 08:05 PM

I am waiting dillgently to post my videos of:

1 War
3 mages
1 Priest

It will be teh dawning of a new era of mutliboxing, where mage war and priest become the most talked about, and played classes. People will drop there 'unwieldy' shaman groups for WAMAPRIEST.

I will call this time, the "ERA OF SUVEGA". Suvega will bestow upon us many of videos, overwhelming the boards with leetness. And it will be good.

Vyndree

01-08-2008, 08:09 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqD0RufWwYw

...And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, "O Lord, bless this Thy hand grenade that with it Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits, in Thy mercy." And the Lord did grin and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats and large chu... [At this point, the friar is urged by Brother Maynard to "skip a bit, brother"]... And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it." Amen.

elo

01-08-2008, 09:34 PM

My decision to roll 4xShammy, 1xPally was completely and totally autonomous. You people, nor those you listed had any influence what-so-ever. In fact, the day the game launched I said, zomg!! I gotta roll 4xShammy, 1xPally!!

Ok... maybe not so much.

Sure the videos play into it, they get the idea in your mind, but if your goal is PvE it really makes a lot of sense.

4x healing totems (zomg)
4x reincarnate
5x rezzing
5x healing
5x shields (significantly sturdier than mages)
Don't have to worry about sheeping - very effective but has to be managed well
4x Heroism (zomg)
No cloth or leather in group (sturdier)
Assundry other totems
Great tanking with Pally + more mana for Shammy
Pretty decent dmg output

Sure I think maybe Pally, Priest, Mage, Warlock, Hunter is my preferred group of all time but they're all so different that it's going to be really tough to get your head around how to handle them all at once.

Rogues are right out
Warriors are out because Pally's AOE tank better, no rage, etc.
Druids are an option, but if you just HAD to heal, you'd have to change form and die (tank wise)
..
..
..

Attention span gone. Any-who, look at it like this. If you're doing a 1x4 setup with your 1 tanking and 4 doing the rest, then the 4 have to be able to heal AND dps. That gives you the following options for the 4

Priest, Druid, Shaman, Pally

Right off the bat Pally is out for the 4 because of melee and that's tough x4. So then you're

Priest, Druid, Shaman

Priest - Squishy... but VE meh... only CC is shackle, blah.... lots of power, all the rez you can want, have to break SF to heal or just not use it... maybe go holy nuke but my impression is that's a little underpowered PvE wise

Druid - Sturdy, No CC, have to change out of Boomkin to heal, only rez once every half hour with reagents... good power, group HoT on timer and channeled

Shaman - Sturdy, Totem CC (which can be fairly effective), good amount of power, all the rez you can want PLUS reincarnate x4. Group HoT for 2 min at a time (limits micromanagement of healing), spell disruption, grounding totems ( <3 ), etc.

So anyway, that's my thoughts on the phenomenon

Vyndree

01-08-2008, 09:50 PM

Quick-ish comments:

Priest - Squishy... but VE meh... only CC is shackle, blah.... lots of power, all the rez you can want, have to break SF to heal or just not use it... maybe go holy nuke but my impression is that's a little underpowered PvE wise

Shackle is nothing to be snuffed at in kara, and on my 70 spriest I made a simple macro that pops me into shadowform during combat (i.e. after i've popped out to heal) if and only if inner focus is ready. They also have AoE fears which, let me tell you, is KILLER in PvP situations. As for spell interruption, they do have a talented silence, and if you're draenei/dwarf, you can pop out of shadow to use chastise. Draenei priests get an additional aoe mana regen ability that's amazing when you castsequence them. ;) Can you tell I have a bunch of draenei priest alts?
Furthermore, with a pally, they have awesome synergy given that the pally gets mana regen from VT as well as healing+mana regen from VE. Very solid group, just FYI. Like shaman, you rarely have to pop out and heal unless it's a dire emergency or a long boss fight. Holy damage is decent but the mana regen can be a problem (which is why I mentioned the draenei mana regen racial), but with imp SoCrusader and surge of light it seems like nice synergy with 1 ret pally and 4 holy priests.

Druid - Sturdy, No CC, have to change out of Boomkin to heal, only rez once every half hour with reagents... good power, group HoT on timer and channeled

CC- cyclone, awesome in PvP
Boomkin aura does not stack, unlike ToW
Rez- every 20 minutes, not 30
Cons: Must be a button jammer due to the talent that gives you spell haste per crit. Prepare for finger arthritis.

Shaman - Sturdy, Totem CC (which can be fairly effective), good amount of power, all the rez you can want PLUS reincarnate x4. Group HoT for 2 min at a time (limits micromanagement of healing), spell disruption, grounding totems ( <3 ), etc.
Note that the "true" group HoT is only for alliance - GoTN. Healing stream can be considered a HoT, but I do make use of Fire Resistance totem, disease cleansing totem, and poison cleansing totem situationally and prefer mana spring (x1) over healing stream (x1).
Tremor totem is awesome for those who didn't roll undead.
Reincarnate is nice, but let's be honest. How often are you wiping? And DI works for non-shaman groups (since we are talking about pally tanks, I'm assuming).

Pulphero

01-08-2008, 10:02 PM

My first dual boxing team was a hunter and a druid - I was unstoppable, I think I only died with I did something stupid. Back when Broken Tooth was the fastest thing around since a 11 year old boy discovers Victoria Secrets. Coupled with Mark of the Wild and Torns on my pet and toons it was hard to stop the damage. I also was a master at the pre-patch feign death/trap crap for hunters. This made LoS and Trap AoE with the hunter very nice :D. (I also did things the hard way - used two keyboards and two hands and two mice...
Then per chance I found Ellay and the boards - though I am a troll lurker I read them everyday. Like my grail I began working toward getting the 5 box setup. And searching the boards for a Hunter, Druid combo - actually I was thinking 1 Hunter, 3 Druids and a priest. But finding macro's thoughts, examples of such a set up was un-heard of... alas, I didnt find it.

The super sexy videos of Ellay and Vyn made the 11 year old boy in me rediscover Victoria Secrets. I have never played a shammy and I saw the Twenty Totems Site - it was over. Shazam Shammies...

If I were to refer to Ellay & Vyn as the Adam and Eve of Sham Slam Movement - its only because when I watched the videos the amount of time it took to down a few ppl was insanly quick and easy. Learning to play the shammies and the tricks that you two have relayed throughout the boards just made it seem like you handed us your teams and said go... had there been a set up of the Hunter-Druid combo I would have gone that way. Instead they sit with 150% xp @ 60.

As for Xzin - I find him more influential than the beatles, has outlined his ten commandment of multi-boxing, I never liked locks... sorry :(

Stealthy

01-08-2008, 10:34 PM

I'm not sure if it's the video's that are making people roll shamans. I think the videos have highlighted one thing however: multiboxing shamans will allow you to experience the most PvE content without the backing of a guild (i.e. heroics), whilst being excellent for PvP as well.

The locks n priest combo still have their place - they are insane in BG's and world PvP, but I think shamans have emerged as the best "all round" group makeup so far...The great thing is that not all options have been explored yet, so it's possible down the track another group makeup may come emrge as the ideal setup (maybe tank/hunter combo or druids)?

Cheers,
Stealthy

Slats

01-08-2008, 10:37 PM

Nice thread =)

Videos are awesome! I love videos. Videos got me into this whole shebang.

Vyndree

01-08-2008, 10:41 PM

At the same time, though, when I started multiboxing we had Xzin's voice via PTR shaman that having classes with cast-time spells was a weakness in PvP due to facing. Also, I recall Xzin mentioning the lack of "true" aoe was another weakness (though I mildly disagree with nova/magma).

This was another reason why warlocks took off and mage groups didn't when paired with a priest. BC brought much higher health pools that didn't scale as well as a warlock dot-driveby, plus there were no real videos advocating the power of the mage/priest combo post-BC (Hopefully Suvega can rectify this).

Both mages and shaman have to face their targets, which honestly is a weakness with all of the aoe fears. Xzin's solution was to scare them away with aoe and use WoTF+pvp trink, whereas the shaman solution, tremor totem, was considered a poor game mechanic due to the pulse system, which Ellay proved could be mitigated by stagger.

With the "retiring" of Bradster, the rise of the shaman was heralded with a sudden drop in the availability of warlock videos. In fact, you can see (http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=1450) Bradster's "I'm moving to EQ2" message on Oct 10, RIGHT before Ellay came out with his arena PvP video.

Coincidence? I think not.

Quix

01-08-2008, 10:47 PM

I don't believe the video's affected my original class selection.

I loved bradster's, Aellie's, & Xzin's videos. But the thing is I knew going into it that I wanted 4xmages & 1 priest.

Now that they are 70 & doing what I wanted, I will freely admit that watching Aellie PWN in 5v5 made me roll 5x shammies.

Thanks again to everyone here for making this such a great resource.

Vyndree

01-08-2008, 10:51 PM

Just adding, imo, if someone had come along with a 4x mage pvp team, or a 4x warlock pvp team, or a 4x shadowpriest pvp team, I think we'd be seeing a similar phenomenon as we're seeing right now with Shaman.

I don't think warlocks are any less OP than they were when I first started 5boxing. The majority of the new shammy boxers I see are all asking about pvp and arenas. With 2.3 released and quest XP dominating instance XP, we're seeing a lot more "how can I 'boost' my 4 characters (typically shammies) to 70" threads due to the shaman craze, when logically we SHOULD be seeing more people questing and less instancing.

Ellay showed ONE example of a 4-box scenario that was viable in PvP.
I showed ONE example of how a 4 shammy + tank group was viable in PvE.

Both of us did this at about the same time, and we just happened to choose the same class.

That doesn't mean that's the end of the cookies in the jar, it just means that everyone's too busy following the leader to discover any other new ways of doing things. Everyone talks about how OP a hunter/druid/shammy/whatever team would be in theory, and it somewhat saddens me to see that nobody is attempting to implement it.

cepheus

01-08-2008, 11:01 PM

I started out multiboxing when tbc. My one of my reasons was maybe a bit different from others. I was horde, and I knew my guild would need paladins in near future. However I had previously played a shadowpriest as main, and could not really let go of this amazing role.

Therefore I decided, why not run everything and more:P Hence I made my paladin and 4 shadowpriests (who later became holynukers).

However I was growing bored of grinding the same instances again and again when I hit 70. I therefor decided to do some pvp. But for pvp I found that I had one big problem; the protection paladin. This was totally useless for pvp-purposes. I could go with 4 priests, but not really a an option for me.

The real strenght of multiboxing(and also weakness) is AoE damage. Therefor I decided to make my new team of 1 shaman and 4 locks. Later one I discovered that shaman and warlocks did not really run very well together, because warlocks were mobile, but shamans were not.

At 60 I switched out the shaman for a priest I allready had at that level. I now really love my priest/4xlock team for BG and world pvp. However I got really run over in arena.

Shamans however has better survivablity and semi-aoe with high damage. This is perfect for arenas. However then again, I think shamans would be less effective in a mobile enviroment as AV. Not useless however, but I still think mobile locks would be better in BG's

My point is that there is very different group compositions you should have to do different things when you hit 70. Therefor I've decided to try some more things.

I allready have my lvl 70 pally +4xpriests and 1xpriest+4warlocks. Now its time for trying out 5 shamans and we'll see if I get them also to 70 before wotlk releases :P I'm getting a bit bored of levling, but its fun to try out different group compositions.

Vyndree

01-08-2008, 11:04 PM

Ellay

01-08-2008, 11:05 PM

Awesome post Vyndree, I love the timeline! Looking back on it now it's amazing to see the possible influence videos have on the class selection of others.
I think Shamans were not in the lime light until the expansion because Elemental Shamans could not exist pre 70. There was barely any itemization for them. There is definitely a ton of other amazing combo's out there that can perform close to what currently is the flavor but it just needs to be discovered!

Good Job though! I gotta say it again, that timeline is awesome.

cepheus

01-08-2008, 11:09 PM

Slats

01-08-2008, 11:12 PM

Cephus why didn't you make your Priests Shadow and your Pally Ret for PvP? Too much respeccing?

cepheus

01-08-2008, 11:17 PM

I agree, cepheus, there are benefits to each type of group composition and I'm glad you've tried so many out, but for beginners, seeing is believing.... And I don't see a single high-end pvp video for anything other than shaman right now.

By high end I mean 70.

I might make some pvp video in-not-too-disant-future. My group is beginning to get fairly good gear (full gladiator,se1 weapon, badge offhand) and I may try to make some video when I feel ready to show somthing that is worth showing :)

I'm also doing quite a bit of kara-raiding with this setup, but then with my priest as shadow (for boosting my locks' damage mainly)

As a sidenote to this. I really love doing karazhan over 5man heroics. Sure, it also gives more badges and better loot, but thats not the main reason.
What makes this really fun is that you have room for more people in your group. After all, wow is a mmorpg, and I really start to get bored after soloing too much. Its just not fun to grind stuff alone.

Currently we have managed to do all bosses exept aran, ilhoof and netherspite(yet to try him). With a bit more tweaking, I see no reason that you cant clear karazahn together with some friends just as effective as a normal group.

cepheus

01-08-2008, 11:22 PM

Cephus why didn't you make your Priests Shadow and your Pally Ret for PvP? Too much respeccing?

It might have worked somehow, but you would still lack aoe thats earlyer mentioned one of your real strenghts of multiboxing.

My main reason for running locks was actually seed of corruption. This is an awsome aoe spell thats kinda made for boxing. No mousetargeting, and you can stand ranged and still use it.
This is awsome for pve aswell togheter with a pally tank. I have a friend that is starting to gear up a paladin tank now. Cant wait until he's karazhan ready and we're going to aoe down everything in there :D

cepheus

01-08-2008, 11:26 PM

There is one other group I'm considering trying out. I dont think I have seen anyone on this forum writing about trying it though.

5x holy paladins :D

Ok this would be horrible to level, it would probably be bad at pve, and you wouldnt kill anything in pvp.

But damn, it just must be real annoying for anyone that tries to kill you in any BG :P This could be reason enough to try this group out:D

You could dominate arenas by forcing your opponets to /afk out after 24 hour matches!

when you put it that way this might actually maybe work in arenas. Your mana would be more or less unlimited due to spiritual attunement, and with fairly decent gear it would be pretty hard to burst anyone of them down. However I guess it would be hard to counter fears and manaburn/drain.

Stealthy

01-08-2008, 11:54 PM

Some more thoughts...

1. PvP rewards are pretty much the best gear a multiboxer can get without the backing of a guild. Even Ellay has said their's nothing he wants in terms of PvE gear from raiding. So multibox specs are most likely to be based around what's effective in PvP.

2. 4 boxing+1 is very different from 5 boxing. 4-boxing+1 opens up more viable classes, since you are primarily focussed on DPS'sing your oponents down while someone else is throwing you heals. However in 5-boxing you're trying to do both DPS & healing, which is quite a bit harder. One of the main weaknesses in a priest+lock, or priest+mage combo in PvP, is that if your priest get's focus fired down, it suddenly becomes a lot harder for you. With 5 shams, losing one isn't as bad - you can still deal damage and heal effectively.

3. PvE is still important - for levelling, earning cash, doing something OTHER than PvP, etc. Shamans are the only multibox team (so far) that have had sucess doing heroics, other than creating a dedicated PvE team.

Cheers,
Stealthy

Xzin

01-08-2008, 11:58 PM

Vyndree

01-09-2008, 12:30 AM

Also, no other class can DPS, heal, wear mail, instant cast 100% crit, 4x grounding totem, AoE (some), rez, ANKH, etc like Shammys. Which is why they are widely chosen to box with. They all have INSANE utility.

They did have this pre-BC. BC brought Lightning Overload, an improved (and constantly tweaked) clearcast, Heroism, ToW (which is rarely taken by the PvPing shaman), and 2 elementals that can't be used in arenas.

It's all been here pre-BC.

The only things I'd consider that are significant to arenas are Lightning Overload and Heroism, considering that clearcasting and ToW (not to mention the elementals) aren't used for PvP. EDIT: Clearcast is of course USED in arenas, but when PvPing you typically don't worry too much about mana efficiency as much as raw dps powah.

I was a 70 shaman prior to multiboxing, and I spent way to much time depressing myself in the shaman forums about poor 70 scaling, the very few BC upgrades when it came to fancy new skills, their lack of anti-CC or CC, and their use in pvp essentially summed up as a "heroism-bot".

Perhaps the one change that brought Shaman to the forefront was the addition of arenas (primarily due to heroism and heroism alone), but I struggle to think that 4 multiboxed dps classes couldn't perform at the same ability as 4 shaman in the same situation given the same amount of skill.

The reason why Ellay does so well may very well be because of the amount of group coordination he has in order to efficiently focus fire. Especially considering mages are getting a free iceblock, why wouldn't they be able to perform just as effectively? Or warlocks? Or even hunters now that they've got the utility of traps + arcane shot dispells and the deadzone update?

Doubleo7

01-09-2008, 12:54 AM

What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Suribusi

01-09-2008, 01:21 AM

In my opinion, before BC and arenas, 5 cloths were the way to go. Post BC, Shammys have the staying power to consider giving up AoE in favor of Heroics (didn't exist pre BC) and Arenas (didn't exist pre BC).

You do have a point that the videos make a diffence. Just don't overlook the impact of broad and sweeping changes.

Also, no other class can DPS, heal, wear mail, instant cast 100% crit, 4x grounding totem, AoE (some), rez, ANKH, etc like Shammys. Which is why they are widely chosen to box with. They all have INSANE utility.

Shammys are nowhere near as good as 4 mages 1 priest in AV though.

As I was reading the posts I had the same thoughts. Shamans were a waste for boxing pre-BC. High end gear from boxing was non existant for soft-core (no arena rewards, or badge gear). And only for hard-core in BGs (warlord/high warlord gear) unless you had a guild that would rather take your 5 over other players (which has been the case for a few, but unless you are awsome-sauce at it, it won't happen). This meant that you would be apt to chose just regular PvP fun in the BGs, with a class makeup that could perform well enough with regular dungeon gear. As I mentioned in my other post in another thread, it really depends on what you want to do.

I have been as much as 10boxing in WoW since Jan 2006, about 3 months after I started playing WoW. It was either a mage or warlock crew. It was really the only two that made sense to make. I made the decision based on what BG I wanted to do, which was AV. So that narrowed it down to one choice, mage.

Now everything is different since the expansion. Hindsight is 20/20. Shamans had their balls drop; warlocks got Seed of Corruption; all the access to gear, etc etc. Based off of all of that, and yes, seeing videos on here, I'm starting up a 5shm crew to play with. But my love is still having fun in AVs, and therefore my "main" group will stay mages for now. I have plans to try out the first viable "Hero class" for multiboxing when it becomes available, and I don't think the Death Knight is going to be it.

I also agree that seeing is believing. Everything is theory at start, and once it is proved with a video on effectiveness of class combo XXXX, people will want to do that as well. Since they know it "can" work, vs trying out a combo that you find out is worthless for 8 months while you soft core grind them up 70 levels. :wink:

But also, I feel some other data in your analysis is missing (not that you said it was 100% complete and accurate or anything :wink: ):
There are a lot of things that has happened in the game in the last year, that have affected how stuff works, especially for multiboxing. There will also more than likely be some class down the road that puts current configs to shame for certain aspects of both PvP and PvE.

I made this post over 4 hours inbetween things, and now I have to rush to bed, so sorry if it is not concise. :shock:

-S

Xzin

01-09-2008, 01:24 AM

I struggle to think that 4 multiboxed dps classes couldn't perform at the same ability as 4 shaman in the same situation given the same amount of skill.

I don't. I tested it, on the PTRs. Mages were AWFUL. They just... die. So do priests. When (or why) they became the worst healers is beyond me. Shamans were far better with only an hour or two of practice than the mages. With practice, they are amazing. I did OK with 4 cloth DPS classes but all in all.... don't expect any 2000+ from a 5 boxer with 5 cloth including a priest healer. 5 cloth and ONE healer = dead.

The reason why Ellay does so well may very well be because of the amount of group coordination he has in order to efficiently focus fire. Especially considering mages are getting a free iceblock, why wouldn't they be able to perform just as effectively? Or warlocks? Or even hunters now that they've got the utility of traps + arcane shot dispells and the deadzone update?

Ellay does so well bc he has 5 healers, stun, ANOTHER PERSON, TOTEMS (grounding, mana tide I am looking at you), MAIL and instant cast, ranged DPS.

He is a siege tank. DPS classes are glass cannons. Period. Arenas are not just loldpsspike = win.

Suribusi

01-09-2008, 01:41 AM

They did have this pre-BC. BC brought Lightning Overload, an improved (and constantly tweaked) clearcast, Heroism, ToW (which is rarely taken by the PvPing shaman), and 2 elementals that can't be used in arenas.

I'm no expert on shaman, nor on WoW. I'm not even sure if I understood you correctly here, but Lightning Overload and Wrath totems is what gives the multi-shaman crew its power, yes?. The amount of focus fire a shaman can do with these abilities can trump 4 mages.

Anyway, the rewards from PvE content just wasn't there for a box crew pre-expansion, compared to PvP. This means (at least in my case) that it makes more sense to make a mage group. Someone else here said it that you get more of an "all around" group with shaman.

Perhaps the one change that brought Shaman to the forefront was the addition of arenas (primarily due to heroism and heroism alone), but I struggle to think that 4 multiboxed dps classes couldn't perform at the same ability as 4 shaman in the same situation given the same amount of skill.

The reason why Ellay does so well may very well be because of the amount of group coordination he has in order to efficiently focus fire. Especially considering mages are getting a free iceblock, why wouldn't they be able to perform just as effectively? Or warlocks? Or even hunters now that they've got the utility of traps + arcane shot dispells and the deadzone update?

Well, I think a big tipping point is that a shaman group has 5 healers, mages have 1. Therefore people quickly realize that they have to take down 1 character to cripple that group. In a shaman group you can easily obfuscate that, or at least have extra healing (albiet not as great as a holy priest individually).

-S

-S

Suribusi

01-09-2008, 01:42 AM

They did have this pre-BC. BC brought Lightning Overload, an improved (and constantly tweaked) clearcast, Heroism, ToW (which is rarely taken by the PvPing shaman), and 2 elementals that can't be used in arenas.

I'm no expert on shaman, nor on WoW. I'm not even sure if I understood you correctly here, but Lightning Overload and Wrath totems is what gives the multi-shaman crew its power, yes?. The amount of focus fire a shaman can do with these abilities can trump 4 mages.

Anyway, the rewards from PvE content just wasn't there for a box crew pre-expansion, compared to PvP. This means (at least in my case) that it makes more sense to make a mage group. Someone else here said it that you get more of an "all around" group with shaman. Post expansion you have a reason to do PvE content, and now there is also the arenas. Where as before, in my opinion, it was BGs only.

Perhaps the one change that brought Shaman to the forefront was the addition of arenas (primarily due to heroism and heroism alone), but I struggle to think that 4 multiboxed dps classes couldn't perform at the same ability as 4 shaman in the same situation given the same amount of skill.

The reason why Ellay does so well may very well be because of the amount of group coordination he has in order to efficiently focus fire. Especially considering mages are getting a free iceblock, why wouldn't they be able to perform just as effectively? Or warlocks? Or even hunters now that they've got the utility of traps + arcane shot dispells and the deadzone update?

Well, I think a big tipping point as far as survivability and effectiveness is that a shaman group has 5 healers, mages have 1. Therefore people quickly realize that they have to take down 1 character to cripple that group, which is very easy to kill a priest before cheap shot wears off. In a shaman group you can easily obfuscate that, or at least have extra healing (albiet not as great as a holy priest individually) and wear mail.

-S

Rms

01-09-2008, 02:05 AM

In terms of PvP, when I considered making a 3man team I considered several classes. The biggest reason to choose Shaman, in my mind, is that much of their defense lies in passive abilities. Higher armor, grounding totem, spell interupt is built into a damage spell, passive damage taken reduction talents etc...

When considering other classes; mage, warlock, priest, hunter: I either eliminated them because they could not heal or because their defenses were too active. For example, my main 1box character is a mage and the biggest objective in PvP is to stay away from people, which means kiting. Kiting with multiple characters sounds like it would be somewhat difficult.

All shaman setups work because of quick casting, high burst, ranged damage. Every character is a healer. With properly setup macros, any character recieving focus fire can get a large amount of healing. Plus having the uniform team setup, not having a priest/mage, means there is no obvious target. Again, with properly setup macros, I can switch my "main" shaman to another with the press of a button.

When talking about PvE, I would say that any balance group if controlled well should work out. There are several videos out of high end 5 man PvE being done by some pretty diverse groups.

Vyndree

01-09-2008, 02:18 AM

don't expect any 2000+ from a 5 boxer with 5 cloth including a priest healer. 5 cloth and ONE healer = dead.

Agreed, but from this portion of the conversation I was assuming a 4 dps multiboxer with 1 healer being played by another person. (after all, I've seen no 5-boxing arena videos/posts yet)

At the same time, squishies have added utilities with CC. Shaman have none. This is the reason why shaman have mail. Granted, you'll lose CC/anti-CC on a person thanks to their PvP trink or other means, but that's the trade-off you make for rolling a "pure" dps class.

Warlocks: Seduce, fear, howl of terror, CoEx kiting (after all, shaman can FS/EB kite but have few spammable instant casts, so I consider this appropriate for instant-cast dot locks), felpuppies for defensive/offensive purging (i.e. some anti-cc)
Mage: Blink (anti-cc), sheep, counterspell, frost nova, FB kiting, and just recently trainable iceblock (essentially like a pally bubble), Defensive/Offensive purging via Spellsteal, Curse removal
Shaman: Grounding totem, Tremor Totem, Earth Shock, FS kiting, Offensive purging, Poison removal

(I've highlighted the mage/warlock portions that match)

The reason why Ellay does so well may very well be because of the amount of group coordination he has in order to efficiently focus fire. Especially considering mages are getting a free iceblock, why wouldn't they be able to perform just as effectively? Or warlocks? Or even hunters now that they've got the utility of traps + arcane shot dispells and the deadzone update?

Ellay does so well bc he has 5 healers, stun, ANOTHER PERSON, TOTEMS (grounding, mana tide I am looking at you), MAIL and instant cast, ranged DPS.

He is a siege tank. DPS classes are glass cannons. Period. Arenas are not just loldpsspike = win.

I've underlined the portions that are actually relatively unique to shamans. I'm assuming that we're talking about a 4-boxed dps group with another person healing.

Shamans have instant cast DPS in the form of NS+LB on a long cooldown (much like pom+pyro), and shocks which are limited range, shared cooldown. Mages, Locks, and Shadowpriests all have instant cast abilities (I'm including dots) that are not limited by cooldowns or reduced casting range.

As for 5 healers, a 4x shadowpriest group would be similar. Granted, shadowpriests aren't exactly represented in PvP, so I'll let that one slide. But honestly, having played a shaman in both elemental and resto specs, there is are few situations that you'd waste your time healing as an elemental shaman:
1) it opens up your entire nature school (which includes totems, earth shock, LB, heals) for spell lock. (But then again, so does lightning bolt... *sigh*)
2) The amount of healing done in elemental gear/spec is miniscule.
3) Spell pushback. Nuff said.

As for totems:
There's a reason why there is little shaman representation in 2's and 3's. Totems were balanced with a full 5-man group in mind. So since we're considering a 4 dps group with a healer, let's just ignore this little tidbit.
Yes, grounding totem is OP. Grounding totem already got a small nerf (4 rank1 instant cast spells/dots/purges can kill it), so it's been on Blizzard's radar for balancing. I don't believe it was ever intended for use in a 5-shaman situation, but I don't think there's anything Blizzard can do to it right now that wouldn't cause a shaman riot.
Yes, tremor totem is OP when you consider a multiboxing scenario (and less OP if you consider 5 different players who won't be sitting on top of each other).
They are the easiest dispellable buff in the game by anyone who knows how to /macro. Lucky for us, most people are incredibly stupid.
Shaman were designed as a buffing hybrid. In in a full group, they do their job well. This I cannot argue with, but at the same time I would consider this the cornerstone of the shaman class, and also its weakness in groups that have less than 5 members, or classes that prefer kiting techniques that take them out of range of the totems.
Furthermore, being the least played class at 70 (and under), shaman are likely the least understood class in the entire playerbase. The totem mechanics are totally unique to us, so that puts other players at a mental disadvantage. If you asked the average arena player, how many of them could tell you that grounding totem doesn't affect aoe? How many could tell you that they have a totem targeting macro? How many of them can tell you what totems do which things? How many of you have seen someone attack a stoneclaw or sentry totem? (Mwahahahaha)

And very finally, mail. I'm getting long-winded, so let's keep this short.
1) Only works vs physical damage, and mortal strike is mortal strike.
2) Resilience is not limited to mail gear

Compare the defensive abilities of mail gear + totems to iceblock+sheep+frost nova, soul link / starting out with a VW sac / seduce / fear / howl of terror / and the rediculous amount of stam a warlock tends to run with.

Anyway, this whole big blob of text has a point:
Shaman have positive points, and negative points. So does any other class. My argument still stands - an equally skilled player with equally geared 4x dps team (plus a healer) could perform at the same level as 4x shaman (plus a healer) in a multiboxing scenario.

I'm aware that certain class balances work better in BG, PvE, PvP, etc. But that doesn't mean they're not even comparable. I'm not advocating that shaman are gimp, or that 4-5boxing shaman is bad just because it's the flavor of the month -- I'm just observing trends, advocating unique spec/class ideas, and generally trying to get people to look outside the box.

If I had known shaman would be dual-boxing's next biggest trend, I probably wouldn't have rolled them to begin with. I like challenges and new ideas. Furthermore, I like PROVING that new ideas can work. Sadly, I'm already most of the way through my 60's and I'm loathe to start from scratch so now you're stuck with me ;)

Half of us wouldn't be multiboxing shaman if someone didn't step up and say "It CAN be done and I'm going to TRY it." -- heck, half of us wouldn't be multiboxing if you, Xzin, didn't try it to begin with -- and succeeded with HWL ranks.

Anyway, I'll step off my soapbox. ;)

Rms

01-09-2008, 02:22 AM

You really sound like you have the passion to bring us the next inspirational multiboxer video of a non-shaman setup!

Have the time to level another 5 characters? :)

I propose a 5 Rogue team :)

Vyndree

01-09-2008, 02:28 AM

I'm no expert on shaman, nor on WoW. I'm not even sure if I understood you correctly here, but Lightning Overload and Wrath totems is what gives the multi-shaman crew its power, yes?. The amount of focus fire a shaman can do with these abilities can trump 4 mages.
http://www.sk-gaming.com/arena/5/us/shaman/all/all/

Popular builds for high ranked teams (over 2200 rating)
40/0/21 = 45.1%
41/0/20 = 5.6% (+5.6%)

Popular builds for all teams (over 2000 rating)
40/0/21 = 40.5% (-3.7%)
41/0/20 = <2.9% (i.e. not represented)

(Above taken from all 5v5 shaman)

So the answer is no. No serious PvP shaman specs Totem of Wrath over nature's swiftness.

Anyway, the rewards from PvE content just wasn't there for a box crew pre-expansion, compared to PvP... Where as before, in my opinion, it was BGs only.
Correct: http://www.wowhead.com/?items=4.3&filter=minrl=60;maxrl=60;ub=7;cr=93:51;crs=1:1;crv =0:0

Well, I think a big tipping point as far as survivability and effectiveness is that a shaman group has 5 healers, mages have 1. Therefore people quickly realize that they have to take down 1 character to cripple that group, which is very easy to kill a priest before cheap shot wears off. In a shaman group you can easily obfuscate that, or at least have extra healing (albiet not as great as a holy priest individually) and wear mail.

I've already posted re: mail armor, but I do agree on the confusion on whether or not the shaman is resto or elemental. However, resto shaman are relatively underrepresented in PvP compared to the other healing classes, but I will give you that it at least puts some confusion/doubt in the players' mind.

Although now that shouldn't be much of a problem. Suvega is telling me that the Proximo mod now tells you people's spec.

Vyndree

01-09-2008, 02:29 AM

Have the time to level another 5 characters? :)

I propose a 5 Rogue team :)

Hahaha, perhaps when I become a millionaire and have a bunch of free time on my hands. ;)

Slats

01-09-2008, 02:29 AM

I'm going to give the PvP Shadowpriests a good go, but I'm not going to put a video up till I'm very well geared like Ellay simple because I dont want to share my glory with 400 new multiboxers haha.

I too dont like being one of the crowd. Thats why I played a lock initially, then when they were OP I could rest on the fact I had one BEFORE they were FOTM and I was GOOD at mine not just some copy cat.

While your options are limited as a multiboxer, I do see a distinct difference in people that push the envelope with multiboxing and people that just stay in the shallow water and go where others have gone before.

BTW more videos Vyndree and Ellay, I enjoy watching them, even if you spawn 1000's of posts about Shaman and the like. ;)

-Slats

Vyndree

01-09-2008, 02:50 AM

Slats, your sig says you have -9% avoidance. WTF. Negative?

It also tells me you have no talent points, 0 health, 0 armor, and 0 defense. Hax! ;)

Slats

01-09-2008, 03:02 AM

I'm not sure whats going on with it, its been going wierd for awhile. I might try one of the other sig providers or maybe make my own if I can get motivated.

Plus my Paladin isn't QUITE as homosexual as the one in the picture. :/ I'm every so slightly more masculine and manly. I also have BLACK hair!

Stealthy

01-09-2008, 03:04 AM

The auto-updating sigs haven't been working for a while now - mine is fubar'd as well.

Something else I was just thinking about - totem forests make tab-targetting very difficult (almost impossible I'd say), forcing opposing players to rely on mouse targetting. Stacking toons would make this harder for them as well... 8)

Cheers,
Stealthy

Ebola

01-09-2008, 03:57 AM

Ha

I have not yet jumped off the cliff like a lemming....

5 Level 70 priests March 07
5 Level 70 locks July 07 (or thereabouts)
5 Level 70 druids Newyears day 08

Sittng in the launch hanger 5 level 29 pallys and 5 level 34 shaman....

Shamans put on hold untill its uncool to level them :)

Wilbur

01-09-2008, 05:55 AM

Once I get my 5 Boomkin you will all kneel before the master of WTFBBQ!

On a side note, Morganti has 5 69 shadow Priests and is doing *extremely* well in BG's.

Hippieman

01-09-2008, 06:08 AM

I guess I'm special! Whee! I'm special!

Honestly, I love my two locks/pally/mage combo. Wouldn't trade it for shammies for the world.

But back on track, it's nice to see a lot of new boxers (I'm not that old myself , in the world of multiboxing that is :P) and there always seems to pop up new combos from time to time. Either five of this or five of that, four of this and one of that, even one of this, a few of that and one of this, etc. etc.

Sure, some combos are more frequent than others, seeing as they're considered easier, but if you dig a bit, you'll notice that a lot of people are experimenting.

Ughmahedhurtz

01-09-2008, 06:25 AM

While I might disagree with some of the more vague implications in the "videos create fad" theory, the basic principle that people are more convinced by visible examples than theorycraft and anecdotes is sound.

It should be noted that some of us that have lock+priest teams are switching class selection around due to some evidence that shows some fairly serious issues versus highly-geared folks and/or multiple healer groups. Without any significant burst damage capability like mages/shammies, it makes it hard when people gang up on you.

Thrown in the group renew of healing stream totems, chain mail, staggered tremor totems, resists for just about all magic schools and group buffs that actually stack and you see why it makes a lot of sense.

I'm raising some mages and a pally (level 37 at the moment; pally will be my PVE-only tank) to see how the burst damage does. So far, I'm happy with it. At 34, I was turning in some nesingwary quests in STV when a 36 hunter, 38 war and 39 rogue decided I'd be a free HK. 6 seconds after they attacked me, the 36 and 38 were dead and the 39 was running away on sprint with a sliver of health. And I didn't do anything but just start spamming Arcane Explosion as they caught me with the vendor windows open selling trash. If this continues to scale well, it should be a blast at 70 in most situations. We'll see. ;)

Remote

01-09-2008, 08:59 AM

This is an interesting thread. When I first started, the only multiboxer I had ever heard of was Xzin. I didn't really think there were other people out there who did this stuff. I actually didn't know about this website at first either...I didn't find it until I was at least in the 40s.
So obviously, videos had no influence on my decision to roll five shaman. However, I did just level a Pally because Vyndree is awesome and I want to cash in on some of that epic-ness. ^_^

Also I want to run Kara. Heehee.

cepheus

01-09-2008, 09:35 AM

Also I want to run Kara. Heehee.

I would advice you not to go for a tank there. One thing is multitasking tanking and dps, another is possitioning.

If you're going for a dual-role for pve, I would chose healing+dps since then all could stand ranged. Being a maintank would quite cripple your ability to be mobile.

And to all others:

Whats up with the whole "I did that first, I was not influenced by others" attitude?

Isn't the whole point with a forum like this to share experiences so we all can be better at what we do?

Sure, I agree that it would not be fun if just about everyone was running around with 5 shamans, but thats not the case as I can see either :)

Remote

01-09-2008, 10:00 AM

I would very much like to try. I may have to get very creative to make it work, but it is my goal.
Also, that is not my attitude at all. I just said that I copied the pally idea from Vyndree. It is simply fact that I started multiboxing before I ever realized there was a multiboxing community.

Edit: Oh, I may have read your post wrong. Sorry if that wasn't directed at me.

Kyudo

01-09-2008, 10:17 AM

Hmmmm.

Well my 1st group was based around 2 things:

1) The aim of getting classes to 70 that I didnt have previously
2) the intention to balance out my current roster of 70s and head for heroics solo. But I jumped in at the deep end for a first timer, with 3 different classes. Yes, I enjoyed it, but it gave me a headache :D They are now parked at 42 or so.

I'm unashamed to say that I am now loving my 4 shammy team. Yes, the videos have influenced me. But in my opinion, it's the relative simplicity of setting up shammies for multiboxing, and their great synergy in numbers that makes them the most appealing. They are great fun, relatively easy to set up, relatively easy to gear, and basically OP in groups. So why not.

It's a game I am enjoying it more than ever. I pick up tips and tricks from other players and their vids, be they shammies or otherwise, but the learning I've done for myself.

My 2c

Squiggoth

01-09-2008, 10:20 AM

To be honest, Remote's Slavepens video is what kickstarted me, I didn't even know about dual-boxing. I saw he had 5 shaman, and went "Gee, that is too cool, but I think I'll go 4 shaman and 1 Paladin, since that way I can aoe tank heroics easier and take much more damage".

I never knew about Ellay, Vyndree, I had heard a bit about Xzin due to his "infamous" High Warlord stuff, but knew he used squishees which wouldn't work. I never knew about Ebola, or any of those other guys.

So I think Paladin + 4 Shaman is just "smart" and "logical" for PvE, not that everyone copied. Although I guess there is a large amount of "wow cool vid, I'll do that!!".

aetherg

01-09-2008, 11:12 AM

I had heard of multiboxing years ago, and read some stuff on XZin, but I didn't think much of it until I saw the Motes on Suramar. I was kinda bored at the time, and it seemed like a great challenge. I originally started 5 shammies, but one of my main goals was to be able to do every instance, heroic/nonheroic. I also wanted to do them the 'classical' way (not using cheap tricks or crazy kiting). And that requires a tank.

So I asked here, and did some research and a pally was to me clearly the best possible tank for my group, in many different ways.

Suribusi

01-09-2008, 12:12 PM

I'm no expert on shaman, nor on WoW. I'm not even sure if I understood you correctly here, but Lightning Overload and Wrath totems is what gives the multi-shaman crew its power, yes?. The amount of focus fire a shaman can do with these abilities can trump 4 mages.
http://www.sk-gaming.com/arena/5/us/shaman/all/all/

Popular builds for high ranked teams (over 2200 rating)
40/0/21 = 45.1%
41/0/20 = 5.6% (+5.6%)

Popular builds for all teams (over 2000 rating)
40/0/21 = 40.5% (-3.7%)
41/0/20 = <2.9% (i.e. not represented)

(Above taken from all 5v5 shaman)

So the answer is no. No serious PvP shaman specs Totem of Wrath over nature's swiftness.

Forgive me here. Are you telling me if you went to the arenas you would not take wrath totem, or not recommend it to another multi shaman crew? Like I said, I'm not shaman expert, but that doesn't sound like a good move to me. 13%+ spell crit is huge. We're talking about a multiboxing team, not 1 shaman with a mix of other classes (possibly with a melee or two). So I would easily see where a normal pvp shaman would not go with Wrath totem.

Touching on other notes, it makes perfect sense why shaman are now "flavor of the month". From my perspective; I hit level 70 with my first crew in, like, late feb or early march. The majority of the player base followed through the next month or two. Arenas just came out (Season 1) around that time as well. So while people figure out the arenas during season 1, and the rest of the player base starts learning level 70 gear/classes/specs and such, people start to see different things for different classes. So around season 2 (june/july) people have a lot of things figured out. People start trying these new classes because of these changes. Low and behold, new multiboxing combos. (when did they add heroics , badge gear and shit too? My memory is horrible)

Who knows, I might just be reserving room in my mouth for my foot later on :wink: . 5 moonkin druids might be the "Easy Button" that nobody knows yet, and the fad would turn to it. Post vids so I can see if they work then roll them! haha.

-S

Boylston

01-09-2008, 12:22 PM

Vyndree's done some great research and digging about why this phenomena seems to have developed. I'll offer some of my own points in here.

Clearly the videos have had some good sales/marketing value for people. Shaman videos have some special appeal due to the neat looking impact of seeing 4-5 lightning bolts + 4-5 chain lightning going off nearly simultaneously. Ignoring all effectiveness (in PvP or PvE) elements, a video of a 4xlock,1xpriest DoT festival is not nearly as sexy as seeing a chain lightning barrage kill 1-2 people.

Vyndree's done a very good job of comparing and contrasting the "escape tricks" that the ranged DPS classes have. Shaman wear mail/shields and have things like defensive totems/frost shock to deal with the fact that they can be easily shutdown/interrupted when someone gets in their face. Mages/Locks/Hunters all have a unique set of escape tricks that are pretty well balanced in a 1-character, 1-player situation. As it's been said, the uniqueness of the shaman class is that a lot of these defensive tools are either passive or can easily be managed in a multi-box situation. It's a little harder to micromanage ice blocks and blinks, I think. Totem defensive synergies are great, and don't require much micromanagement (they are somewhat passive beyond the intial keypresses to plant them).

I think the combination of healing and ranged DPS is a potent one that can't be overlooked. Sure, Priests have that too, but it's a distinguishing factor between Shammies and Locks/Mages/Hunters. Multiboxed, you get synergies as well-- 4/5x Lesser Healing Waves focused on a target is a lot of healing for 1.5sec. 4-5x Chain Heals is a fantastic way to deal with the group getting hit by AoE attacks.

On the "why don't top 5v5 shamen take Totem of Wrath"? I think this one is easy-- most of them are probably the only shaman on their team. Totem of Wrath by itself is somewhat mediocre in a 5v5 context. 3% crit.... 3% hit... A big difference between the 12-15% bonus a multiboxer might be getting. The tradeoff these individual shamans are making with ToW is giving up Nature's Swiftness, a talent that is going to increase their survivability OR give them better burst damage coordination (a complete non-issue for the multiboxing shaman).

My personal story is this: I had two accounts with a L70 Pally as my main and a L70 Shaman and L70 Mage that used to be the two main characters I played. After deciding to make the plunge into multiboxing, my initial response was to make 4 Shadow Priests to pair up with my Pally for PvE fun. I also thought that 4 Priests might have some interesting PvP ability. But the more I researched here on dual-boxing.com, the fewer great 4xPriest PvP experiences I found. The 4xshammy videos and 2000+ arena rating stories got me thinking. Having played a L70 shammy, I knew a LOT about what that might look like with 3 more partners, and I knew that I could someday run a Pally+4xShammy team fairly easily (since I already had 2 of the 5 leveled to 70).

Knowing what I know about how BC end-game loot works, I knew that the only way I was going to get a 4xAnything team reasonably geared was through arena points (and BG+Badge Rewards, to a lesser extent). So I biased my decision to go with the shammies, since I thought they would be the easiest route to arena success for me.

And seriously, how sexy is 4xChain Lightning...?

Remote

01-09-2008, 12:22 PM

41/0/20 is not an acceptable PvP spec for a 4/5 shaman multiboxing team.

Boylston

01-09-2008, 12:24 PM

41/0/20 is not an acceptable PvP spec for a 4/5 shaman multiboxing team.

I'd love to see you comment on why you like 40/0/21 vs. 41/0/20 for arenas, perhaps in a different thread!!!

Remote

01-09-2008, 12:29 PM

41/0/20 is not an acceptable PvP spec for a 4/5 shaman multiboxing team.

I'd love to see you comment on why you like 40/0/21 vs. 41/0/20 for arenas, perhaps in a different thread!!!
It has been discussed at some length in several threads. It isn't necessary to dig them up though.
First of all, you cannot rely on crits in PvP. While 13%-15% is a huge buff, that is going to be diminished when you're facing opponents stacking resilience. Also, your crits won't hit as hard.
Second, being able to take one of your opponents out immediately at the beginning of an arena match is more or less the only chance you have of winning against a skilled/geared team.
5x LB + 5x NS EMCL + Shock = minimum ~20k damage. Nothing can survive that.

Boylston

01-09-2008, 12:38 PM

5x LB + 5x NS EMCL + Shock = minimum ~20k damage. Nothing can survive that.

Ok, Thanks. I had assumed this would be the case.

Vyndree

01-09-2008, 01:24 PM

I'm no expert on shaman, nor on WoW. I'm not even sure if I understood you correctly here, but Lightning Overload and Wrath totems is what gives the multi-shaman crew its power, yes?. The amount of focus fire a shaman can do with these abilities can trump 4 mages.
http://www.sk-gaming.com/arena/5/us/shaman/all/all/

Popular builds for high ranked teams (over 2200 rating)
40/0/21 = 45.1%
41/0/20 = 5.6% (+5.6%)

Popular builds for all teams (over 2000 rating)
40/0/21 = 40.5% (-3.7%)
41/0/20 = <2.9% (i.e. not represented)

(Above taken from all 5v5 shaman)

So the answer is no. No serious PvP shaman specs Totem of Wrath over nature's swiftness.

Forgive me here. Are you telling me if you went to the arenas you would not take wrath totem, or not recommend it to another multi shaman crew? Like I said, I'm not shaman expert, but that doesn't sound like a good move to me. 13%+ spell crit is huge.

Yes, 13% spell crit is huge. I took it as a leveling shammy because of the +hit as well and that's part of the reason why I was able to shock some 70 gankers in my low 60's.

However:
1) Shaman have no CC
2) Searing totem is more dps than ToW, but breaks CC
3) NS can be used as a way to pump out instant burst or an instant heal

Because most arena matches are decided after the first face-off (granted, you have your gauntlet-style defensive teams to face, but for the most part, it's the moment a fight becomes 5v4), the fastest burst damage a shaman can do is Lightning bolt, EM, Chain Lightning, NS Lightning Bolt, Shock

Agreed that ToW is not taken in groups that have only 1 shaman, and that there is a difference (since it stacks) with a multiboxing shaman. However, it's utility is mana efficiency and a passive (crit-based) increased damage over a period of time. NS is controlled burst damage or burst healing, which, much like EM, is more effective in PvP situations. Besides that fact, resilience really screws with crit based damage anyway, whereas the extra "fluff" damage from searing totem/magma/fire nova (how many people do you see that walk up to a searing totem or wand it?) isn't terribly reliant on crit.

Contents

01-09-2008, 01:52 PM

Initially I started with a pally/3xmage/priest setup and as much as I liked them, starting out the macros were a bit above me. So I decided to try 5x something I had never played before...Shaman. To be honest, I havn't seen any of the videos of the shammies, but now that my shamans are in their 40's I'm seeing that for heroics I'm definitely going to need a tank. So I started levelling my pally.

I'll admit I did PM Vyndree once to see if she had any suggestions/pointers since upon searching the site was lacking in the pally + shaman department. ..

...which is strange considering the sheer amount of people playing the setup, but I digress...

As far as the fad issue, I'm positive within the next major patch/expansion something else will become more popular. (Maybe Wilbur's 5x Boomkin)
It's just the nature of the game. Whenever something changes people tend to shift to the class that they believe to be OP at the time.

Eteocles

01-09-2008, 01:58 PM

I was a Boomkin before it was popular! D: lol(I also rolled my shamen before I saw the vids but that's besides the point)

I've seen what Ebola can do with his Boomkins and I know what I can do just by myself as a lone Boomkin, it may very well be the next thing ;p The only problem is Druids are a BITCH to lvl before 40, and Boomkin isn't all that viable till Outlands gear(Leather casting gear before then? hahahahahaaaa...); not to mention "free" flight form at 68 + flight form being insta-cast shifting, not cast-time like mounts.

Boylston

01-09-2008, 03:19 PM

marvein

01-09-2008, 03:24 PM

I had plans for a long time to level a shaman to 70 next after my druid. I then caught a glimpse of multiboxing (had been running two accounts for some time) which made me want to do that. Then I saw the herioc 5box shaman clears on youtube and it simply reaffirmed what I had already assumed "this is going to kick ass". And that is how I arrived at my current setup. Plus I have a druid who is almost 70 (67 with full rested) that if I want I can use to tank. Then what I will do when I want to try something else I will do a 3+2 box, creating 3 new characters on my 3 alt accounts and use 1-2 shamans on my main to boost them up, giving me an even wider range of classes to use. the 3 other characters will likley include a paladin/lock/mage or paladin/mage/priest and then joining with my warrior when they reach that leve. Giving me the option of using nearly every class (hunter, rogue, druid, shaman, warrior, paladin, mage/priest/lock). Because while 5x shaman is ezmode(and it is beautiful) and I still intend to do as many instances as I can I still wish for a greater challenge of truly running a balanced party and doing PvE rather than the pewpew-run away-pewpew that 5 shamans resembles. I personally feel I have well gotten the hang of 5 boxing and it was pretty easy to do it again so after I challenge myself with getting to 70 and doing as many heroics as possible I want a new challenge of filling every role in a party at once.

efwee

01-09-2008, 03:26 PM

Shamans were pretty much the only class I hadn't leveled up before I started 5boxing, Xbr's movies in AV were quite neat aswell so after trying out both locks/priest and shaman setups I went for shamans.

Combination of 'new' and a fun movie I suppose.

Vyndree

01-09-2008, 03:30 PM

I am wondering when someone is going to step up and tell the truth. Let's stop dancing around what we know is the real reason.

4xShaman,1xPally rise in popularity can be directly tied to Vyndree's belly chain pictures appearing on the web, not any video(s).

:shock:

That must be the link between the videos and the popularity, since it's only on my stage6 and I used a different pic on these forums.

Excellent deduction. ;)

Eteocles

01-09-2008, 03:52 PM

I would go look but I'm at work and stage6 is blacklisted on the firewall ;p It better be there when I get home, my curiosity is piqued, I never paid attention to the non-video stuff lol

Xzin

01-09-2008, 05:17 PM

Xzin

01-09-2008, 05:26 PM

Xzin sets the strangeness level +1 once again......

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x45/Xzin-WoW/Vyn.jpg

Eteocles

01-09-2008, 05:31 PM

More like pervert fanboy/horndog level ;p

Contents

01-09-2008, 05:32 PM

...Xzin, bored much?

Vyn looks a bit stretched in that picture.

Xzin

01-09-2008, 05:33 PM

Haha yeah, the boredom right now is pretty high.

Trying to close this deal since early Dec and it's getting dragged out.... and can't move ahead until it is finished.

I did that in 2 minutes with MS (lol) paint. If you really don't like the quality, you are free to do a better version.

I just saw that the above pic looked strangely like her avatar (same pose) and it needed to be updated.

Rms

01-09-2008, 05:33 PM

More like pervert fanboy/horndog level ;p

What are you talking about man. I'm a guy and I wear two of those belly chains. Isn't that normal?

Vyndree

01-09-2008, 05:36 PM

Xzin sets the strangeness level +1 once again......

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x45/Xzin-WoW/Vyn.jpg

Wow, that one looks like I'm pregnant. O.o

I'll have to get Suvega to take some recent pictures (the one in my dual-boxing pic is from college, the one with the belly chain is from a year ago). I'm sure he'd be thrilled. ;)

Xzin

01-09-2008, 05:38 PM

Xzin sets the strangeness level +1 once again......

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x45/Xzin-WoW/Vyn.jpg

Wow, that one looks like I'm pregnant. O.o

I might have messed up the aspect ratio a bit....

MS (heh) paint as far as I know lacks a maintain scale modifier key.

Eteocles

01-09-2008, 05:39 PM

Rms I was directing that towards Zin's comments ;p And as I said earlier I haven't seen the pic yet; not going home for another 20mins =\

I'm sure he'd be thrilled.

"Honey, I need you to take some pictures" 'Why dear?' "Some guys on this forum on the internet want me to" :D

Vyndree

01-09-2008, 05:55 PM

Alrighty Xzin...

I want to see a picture of me, in those fake assless chaps, with a pregnant belly chain, also wearing a skirt.

GOGOGO!

< edit: pics moved to http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums2/viewtopic.php?p=26083#26083 >

marvein

01-09-2008, 06:10 PM

wow....

Boylston

01-09-2008, 06:12 PM

Way to drag the post off-topic by posting a bunch of personal pictures, Vyndree!

*runsandhides*

Contents

01-09-2008, 06:19 PM

wow... you are telling someone to make you look like that.... wow... just wow.

Completely off topic, but technically on the current topic: As far as I can tell Vyn is the first p[erson to step up and post an actual pic of themselves. Strange that one of the only females in this community posts knowing that it will spark the inevitable "OMG RL BEWBS", and "HAI WANT 2 CYBRS?"

... I had a set purpose for the post, but I lost it a while ago.

Xzin

01-09-2008, 06:22 PM

Here is my IRL pic.

http://backseatcuddler.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/brad-pitt-beach.jpg

Xzin

01-09-2008, 06:24 PM

Vyn, no offense but why does your hair color change?

Also - how the heck and I suposed to photohshop you in something like 4 different angles?

Contents

01-09-2008, 06:27 PM

I could go two ways with that...

1. Wow, who would have thought that Xzin would post a picture of something on topic, but not quite the actual thing.

2. I could also see it being the real Xzin, considering the small fortune he's put into his office/computer room setup.

maxcom

01-09-2008, 06:30 PM

ahhh great... this thread is going to 40 pages now

Vyndree

01-09-2008, 06:39 PM

Strange that one of the only females in this community posts knowing that it will spark the inevitable "OMG RL BEWBS", and "HAI WANT 2 CYBRS?"

I think I've made my mark on this community, and those who've gotten past the last 4-5 pages of my giant blocks of text should know by now that I'm not some valley girl with a fetish for flirtation. I'm perfectly capable of b*tchslapping the net-tards, but thanks for your concern. :)

Besides, I was asking Xzin to turn me into a freak of nature, and instead he's revealed his true identity - Brad Pitt. ;)

maxcom

01-09-2008, 06:46 PM

Xzin, i think i speak for all in the community when I say I'm concerned with you having Brad Pitt photos handy to post so fast....

Suvega

01-09-2008, 06:48 PM

I'll have to get Suvega to take some recent pictures (the one in my dual-boxing pic is from college, the one with the belly chain is from a year ago). I'm sure he'd be thrilled. ;)

How many of you bastages do I have to beat off of Vyn with a stick now...
;)

Ughmahedhurtz

01-09-2008, 06:52 PM

Vyndree

01-09-2008, 06:55 PM

How many of you bastages do I have to beat off of Vyn with a stick now...
;)
I would guess none. All she's gotta do is challenge to copy to the PTR and 5-man duel for dating rights. I'm fairly sure that'd turn out a bit one-sided with those of us that aren't married. ;)

We need to organize PTR 5boxer pvp the next time it's up. Not for dating rights, just so I can kick all your asses. ;)

Xzin

01-09-2008, 06:56 PM

Suvega

01-09-2008, 06:56 PM

maxcom

01-09-2008, 06:58 PM

Vyndree

01-09-2008, 07:00 PM

I would guess none. All she's gotta do is challenge to copy to the PTR and 5-man duel for dating rights. I'm fairly sure that'd turn out a bit one-sided with those of us that aren't married. ;)

Damn you for pointing out my weak pvp skills! /shakes fist :x

I could kick your ass for dating rights, if that makes you happier.

marvein

01-09-2008, 07:08 PM

Xzin, i think i speak for all in the community when I say I'm concerned with you having Brad Pitt photos handy to post so fast....

I have the Internet. Brad pics, including Rule 34 Brad pics are about 2 clicks away (should one so desire, which I do not).

lol do I have to point out that you selected the photo from http://backseatcuddler.com ?

no, no you didnt.

ok RL pics moved lets try to get back on topic of the discussion of the influences and current trend of people rolling 4-5shaman teams as multiboxer of choice.

Rms

01-09-2008, 07:49 PM

Ughmahedhurtz

01-09-2008, 08:08 PM

I would guess none. All she's gotta do is challenge to copy to the PTR and 5-man duel for dating rights. I'm fairly sure that'd turn out a bit one-sided with those of us that aren't married. ;)

Damn you for pointing out my weak pvp skills! /shakes fist :x
Actually, I meant duel HER. :) Though you guys really oughta queue up 5v5 arenas one night late so you can play each other and post that game vid.

Remote

01-09-2008, 09:50 PM

http://somethingtoputhere.com/lolcat/img/lovethisthread.jpg

Boylston

01-09-2008, 10:53 PM

I am wondering when someone is going to step up and tell the truth. Let's stop dancing around what we know is the real reason.

4xShaman,1xPally rise in popularity can be directly tied to Vyndree's belly chain pictures appearing on the web, not any video(s).

See, I was right...

This story will become even more heartbreaking for the net perves out there when it's revealed that "Vyndree" is actually a 40-year-old man still living in his parents' basement.

Oh yeah, and 4xChain Lightning is killer sexy!

kalih

01-09-2008, 11:59 PM

Dec 10 (http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=2313) - Class selection FAQ released

Most common setups:
Tank/Priest/Some-Mix-of-Locks-and/or-Mages
Tank/Priestx4 (holy-nuke or shadow)

Paladin is the most common tank. Shaman subbing in for priest is also fairly common.
Shaman, sadly, do not make the "most common" cut in either 4/5x shaman, or shaman + tank.

As a slight correction to your original post, this isn't quite true. The section you quoted is under the supersection about PvE.

Under PvP shaman groups are listed:

Most common setups:
Priest/Lockx4
Priest/Magex4
Shamanx5

Still reading the rest of this thread...

Vyndree

01-10-2008, 12:15 AM

My 'pologies, Kalih. I must've missed that. However, notice that, at the very least, 4x shaman 1x tank is not mentioned in either pve or pvp.

Furthermore, I haven't seen any 5x shaman pvp videos besides the one that was taken by a player in an AV match that happened to be grouped with Xbox (and arguably, at the time, AV was a PvE encounter). 4x shaman + another person playing healer seems to be the big PvP build.

kalih

01-10-2008, 12:18 AM

I agree. At the time I wrote it I was relatively unaware of any paladin/shaman groups. There seems to be several now popping up so it's certainly worth adding for new people to see.

All that being said, I long ago reserved my names for my now level 8 group of druid/shamanx4.. I expect that to be all the rage soon enough.

Slats

01-10-2008, 01:37 AM

Actually Wilbur might be onto the new trend. We will see. ;)

marvein

01-10-2008, 03:13 AM

http://somethingtoputhere.com/lolcat/img/lovethisthread.jpg

*fixed* :)

junx

01-10-2008, 07:23 AM

I hadn't really noticed the jump in popularity for the shamadin teams as much as I have noticed a huge jump in the multi-boxing community as a whole.

I've had a minimum of three accounts since launch and have been multiboxing in one form or another since the dark days of AHK and having keyboards all over my desk.

To me the major difference is Keyclone.

I had three accounts when I first downloaded it but never played more than two or three toons at a time because it took so long to set everything up. Then Keyclone posted here(and got hell from a lot of the forum members for charging 10 bucks lawl) and things just took off. I think I had been lurking here within a few weeks of the site going live but registered for Keyclone. And the day after getting Keyclone I was racing to the store to get more copies of wow and start really 5 boxing.

I think it is the same for a lot of other people as well. Most multi-boxers were doing two or three toon teams. Five boxing didn't become as easy until Keyclone came along.

Shaman's and paladins don't really shine unless you are doing the full group of five.

Not to dismiss Ellay and Vyndree's accomplishments, or excellent videos, I just think it was one of those "things whose time has come" type deals like the telephone once the groundwork was there.

I still play my mages/priest and druid/hunter occasionally and my druid/druid quite a bit. Being Alliance without overpowered WotF, the four times tremor totem was the key for me. I have been picked apart by good locks and shadow priests on my other teams. Adding a paladin lets me be an instance rat and avoid all the attention that comes with multi-boxing while I level.

Phate

01-10-2008, 08:04 AM

Excellent post, the timeline is great for us late-comers.

For me it just came down to viable classes I hadn't played yet. I have a 70 warlock, 70 mage, 70 hunter, 67 warrior, and I didn't want to mess with a multi class combination for my first run at it, so assuming I want a res, and to not hate my life, it's down to shaman, or priest, and the last two toons I'd leveled were clothies, so Shaman sounded like a winner. Plus pewpew Chain Lighting + NS Lightning Bolt + Earth Shock x 3 is going to be fun.

Xzin

01-10-2008, 02:19 PM

Five boxing didn't become as easy until Keyclone came along.

And cheap dual/quad cores / 7 or 8 series video cards / cheap ram.

Tremor totem really makes boxing easier too.

Slats

01-10-2008, 05:22 PM

marvein

01-10-2008, 05:47 PM

After all our picture posting in the last 3 pages - I think the suggestion of multiboxers all copying to PTR next time along and just going crazy sounds like a fucking awesome idea.

The Mag Ventrillo could host it, or I am happy to spawn another TS Server on my box and we can get some stuff happening.

If we all got one of those 'all join AV at the same time mods' I'd love to fraps a full multiboxed AV/WSG/EOTS/AB.

Whose up for it?

I think you can even do this on cancelled accounts, as long as there old enough, so even Mr Boredom/MS Paint Guru could play.

Dont think we'll see them in 2.4 PTR (new raid/dungeon content usually means no pre-mades) but mmmm this sounds fun.

Id be down for that. I also have a 25user vent server we could use. We just need to make sure we get the right mix of horde/ally :)

unfortunately though only 2 of my 3 accounts would be able to use a premade, but that is also ok cause the gear available for an elemental shaman as a premade is shit.

Xzin

01-10-2008, 06:08 PM

....so even Mr Boredom/MS Paint Guru could play.

Hey! I represent that!

Vyndree

01-10-2008, 06:11 PM

I have a 75 slot vent that was used for Suvega's old guild, which has since disbanded.

When the next PTR is being announced, someone hop on the forums and start a post with ptr type (PvE/PvP), horde/ally, and a list of known multiboxers on that PTR (with names) and I'll add the vent info to that post.

Suribusi

01-11-2008, 02:32 PM

Five boxing didn't become as easy until Keyclone came along.

I fully disagree. Multiboxing comes with knowledge about how to go about it. It was a niche, and a small one at that. It has grown much bigger due to the information being out in the open. Referring to wowwiki information, this site, and a few other random bloggers mainly.

Those who wanted to multibox with no worries on expenditures could just throw cash at it until they got something working the way they wanted if they were so inclinded and/or determined. Those on a very limited budget could not afford to make mistakes, and thus was a deterrent. Software utilities makes things budget friendly, and they have existed for years. Xylobot, MQ2, WinEQ2, Innerspace, (XUnleaded? I personally never used it) etc. You had to know what to look for, and find it. Or else you sit there with your thumb up your butt awe-struck on "how are they doing that?".

With a site such as this the information flows, and people can copy what they know "works" without having to experiment themselves (from what to buy and where, all the way up to how to play). Part of the reason why there are very few unique 5box builds, the mage/lock/shaman has proven to "work", so most hop on those wagons.

I enjoy posting and participating here. Talking with like-mind folks on these subjects and such. But, I would be lying if I said some of the side effects of exposure didn't bother me. But it is enevidible. :wink:

And cheap dual/quad cores / 7 or 8 series video cards / cheap ram.

Tremor totem really makes boxing easier too.

This has definitely aided things, for sure. Unfortunately my setup hasn't been upgraded in... 3 or 4 years? So I haven't had the benefit of this leet stuff yet. 8)

Hmm... I forget what thread I'm even about to post this in... :shock:

edit: I did mean that those with money were retards and haphazardly wasted it on things without doing research until the pieces fell together. I was mainly saying that doing days and days of research was mandatory, and if they were so inclined, they didn't have to do it at all. :wink:

-S