Why should I help others if I get no extra dkp?

[Xtremepayne]

For those in guilds, kinships, or whatever they call it in the game your playing I was curious to people's opinion. The subject is the title.
Have you ever been told that you will get no extra DKP or RP to help others in your guild by multiboxing? If you have been told this did u still help them?

[Ualaa]

It depends.

If you play say five toons, while others are mostly playing one toon each...
You are getting as many shots at loot per player as anyone else.

If you have the option on which toon is rolling per boss, or even per run, you can slowly gear several.
Each of your toons are getting raid type badges, even if they restrict who or how many can loot.
On the other hand, you're paying 5x the repair bills as anyone else.

If DKP is tracked on a per character basis, then I can see each earning and spending on their own.
If its tracked on a per player basis, and any of your toons can spend your total, not sure if that's fair.

Also it depends on if the guild can field 25 players, or if there are only 19 people logged on for non-farm content, and you can bump it up to 23 toons available.
In the first instance, they're basically doing you a favor.
In the second case, you're allowing a raid to happen which would not otherwise happen.

The easiest is to raid with other boxers exclusively.
There are boxing friendly guilds out there.
I'm pretty sure you can find 4-5 boxers (per faction) on most servers.

[Multibocks]

Kil'jaeden, I'm lookin at you!

[HPAVC]

It would depend to me on what DKP system they used. The problem I see using something like zero sum nulldpk is that they have to make the characters they aren't counting as no shows or the raid was undermanned in some fashion, otherwise the numbers are off. 25 people show, 800dkp was looted, 32 awarded versus 38dkp for 21 people.

Secondly, if they are asking you to bring the 5 toons, thats entirely differnet than them accommodating your 5 toons. So when I druid + priest for raids because we are short healers, yeah both get full shares. If I wanted to show up with multiple shaman a good argument could be made that the slaves aren't the same thing.

Some issues like being able to spend, spend rotations (can you spend your saved DKP on each character or do you go out of rotation for all of them). Those might actually be more important to other players than amassing DKP.

I guess also if someone showed up and wasn't a full member I would be a bit miffed if that person looted and my slaves absolutely were not allowed to. But that's why some people just don't get healed as much as others.

[Ualaa]

I'm personally a fan of the EP/GP loot system.
Earned Points vs Gear Points.

Basically, points are earnt based upon time invested in the raid.
You can have bonus points based on kills or first kills etc.

And then items have a gear cost, which is deducted as items are looted.

The priority to loot is based on the highest ratio.

A strength of the system is that both your EP and your GP decay at 10% per month.
So you cannot effectively stockpile a lot of points.
As your EP rises, but you choose to not take gear, your ratio does improve.
But 10% of a higher EP means you are eventually losing points faster then you're gaining them.

The system is particularly strong if everyone is equally geared or close enough when you implement the system.

Also, generally a new member needs a minimum of "x" raids attended.
Or a minimum of "x" EP before their ratio counts.
Once it does, since they have no GP, they basically automatically win one piece early.
After a couple of pieces, they have much lower priority then a long time member.
Still, after the dues are paid, getting two or three pieces is a nice reward.

[Naysayer]

If your guild ever tells you your dkp system is going to be based on person rather than character, than they either don't need you very much or don't like you very much. If you still want to be in the guild, than be grateful for what you get.

Guilds are usually looking to progress as quickly as possible, and if they are holding back 4(more or less) active characters in the raid gear-wise only because you're boxing them, than they are more interested in personal progression rather than guild progression.

[Mooni]

Since I was the multiboxer with my guild, which is part of a cross-platform community kind of thing (started with SWG and covers about 7 MMOs now, with plans for the future) they asked me about loot rules.
They run Suicide Kings, but that makes allowances for mainspec/offspec and you can apply that to main character/alt. That's what they had so far, but what of your drones? Aren't they just alts?
What we came up with was you could do two mainspec rolls no matter how many characters you have. The first roll is for your "main" out of your group of 2, 3, 4, 5, however many. The second roll is split amongst your alts.
This applies for any "Visitor" multiboxers too, like yourself.
It's probably far from the best system, but it's better than that crap these guilds are telling you about "Thanks for coming but you can't roll because you'll steal all the loot"

No way am I spending the repair money to help people who won't let me possibly profit from it. Nor am I going to accept repair money as a "payment for services rendered" because I'm not that kind of multiboxer.

[Ualaa]

It's kind of funny... they're obviously either personally greedy for gear or lacking in intelligence.

For example...

You are one boxing in a 25 man raid.
Everyone else is one boxing as well.
The "super" ring drops, which is 100,000 to every stat.
It is the best loot in the zone.
No one has it, and its a huge upgrade to everyone.

Theoretically, everyone has close to 4% (1 in 25) chance to win the ring.

Now switch it around to two boxers, each with five toons in a raid.
So we have...
15 players, each playing 1 toon.
2 players each playing 5 toons.
Each of those 15 players has a 4% chance (1 in 25) to win the ring.
Sure the boxer has a 20% chance one of his toons wins the ring, but each toon has the same chance as anyone else.
Ideally DKP or EP/GP or Suicide Kings or a Loot Council... tracks on a per character basis, at least for regulars who attend almost every event.

Even if you get no credit for extra toons in a raid...
As you gear others up, the raid becomes more successful as a whole.
Which means fewer wipes and more things on farm.
Which equates to better gear for your toons.
Eventually we reach the point where gear will rot, unless your slave toon takes it.

By the same token, if the guild does not allow the secondary toons to loot.
Eventually those toons contribute less and less to raids.
By not gearing your alts (assuming they are regular full time raiders), the guild is choosing to decrease their chances of advancement.
They're all probably pissing their boxer off, and increasing the chance that they will change to a more boxer friendly environment, should the chance present itself.

[Xtremepayne]

My question stems from Lord of the Rings Online but the idea is still the same. And the idea of the question is actually before and after the fact. What I mean is no extra DKP for helping with those extra characters, and no extra bidding after. No matter what I do its still as if I was one person playing 1 character. This is why I am asking this question.
Needless so say your opinions have been been a help. My choice is no longer assist them in a multibox style since I won't be rewarded for it. However, I will still assist them with any 1 character in which the way I am rewarded.
I wasn't sure I wanted to do it but after asking the question here, you all gave me my answer. Thank you.

[Saithe]

It almost sounds like you're asking for special privileges because you have more characters in the raid. Which I would definitely say is a bad idea.

[Zal]

The rule i follow when play with all my characters in a raid:
"All my characters will be treated like any other player in the raid. The only difference is i can choose who gets what loot. For instance say i have 4 characters but only 3 need the item that drop, i get 3 rolls but last in my chain of command wins, i want loot on the 2nd since my first already has the item." However the loot on character i want thing doesn't need to be said now since you can trade bop items now to fellow raid members.

[Mooni]

Zal that's what I'd do if I was in charge.
But I like to pre-empt any resistance by saying up front that I'll only do two rolls: One for my main and one for my alts (until everyone in the raid's gotten somethin who wants somethin')
Now that stuff is tradeable, it's nunya what I do with it once I win either.

[Babysir]

My question stems from Lord of the Rings Online but the idea is still the same. And the idea of the question is actually before and after the fact. What I mean is no extra DKP for helping with those extra characters, and no extra bidding after. No matter what I do its still as if I was one person playing 1 character. This is why I am asking this question.
Needless so say your opinions have been been a help. My choice is no longer assist them in a multibox style since I won't be rewarded for it. However, I will still assist them with any 1 character in which the way I am rewarded.
I wasn't sure I wanted to do it but after asking the question here, you all gave me my answer. Thank you.

Well to be honest the problem is lotro. The playerbase there is worse than WoW, believe me I've been around lotro since beta and am a lifer. I'm surprised a guild even accepted you, I've seen their multiboxer threads and there is some serious hate going on there. I know some people even go as far as making blacklists and if any player is caught assiting a boxer in any way they are insulted and added to this list. Obviously those that follow these lists aren't the entire server, but it gives you an idea of just how childish they can be.
I hope they take your choice to no longer help them as a multiboxer well.

[Mukade]

Well (for WoW and the new 2 hours trading on loot) I'd say what's to stop 2 or more seperate people in a raid rolling on loot, and then giving it to the other person, just to increase the number of people rolling, and that /group's/ chance of getting the item.

There's no way for the rest of the guild to know if any of it's members are acting in their own interests in rolling on loot (unless everyone is armoried regularly to make sure they are using items they won), so why should they stop you from doing the same.

You getting 5 rolls on loot, and then giving it to whichever alt you want from that group who needs it, is no different from 5 players rolling on loot, and then giving it to whoever needs it behind the scenes (within class use rules for the item).

[Ualaa]

Ultimately, the toon that receives the item will be charged DKP or whatever for the item.

A guild is within their rights to ask that you equip, gem and enchant items which you win.
So nothing really stops you or others from moving things around.
But there's a good chance you can be caught if they think it might be an issue.

The simplest solution is to track DKP or points on a per character basis.
So if one of your toons wins, its deducted from the points that toon has won.
The other toons have no claim on something, because the person with the most points (or a roll off if within x points of another toon) won it, and had the commensurate amount of points deducted from their total.

Chances are most guilds won't go with DKP on a per character basis.
But long term, its probably the most fair solution out there.

[Kromtor]

Never agree to raid with guilds who don't give you full credit for each character.

[daviddoran]

Look at it this way. (and it's been said before):

If they NEED you to fill out the group to be able to accomplish something, then every toon you bring gets equal rights to loot as the next.

If they LET you bring more in, but could have done it without you boxing (or even more so if it takes LONGER for you to get used to boxing an encounter, vs solo playing it F you grobulus), then you haven't really earned much by using multiple characters, and it would seem unfair to most if you got more loot.

You can make up for much of the difference by running your own heroics, and gear up that way. Also, (assuming you are playing wow) when an item is looted, you have 2 hours before it's fully soulbound, so you can just /roll on one toon and give it to whoever you want later.

[Mooni]

The only reason I don't go in making demands about how I get one roll per character is the scenario my guild leader put forth:
I go in, I win loot off of the first four bosses. No one else wins. They see one person's main and alts getting all the gear. Drama happens.

Because I love my guildleader I accepted that it'd be better to find compromise between the fact that I'm just one person and the fact that I do pay $14.99x5 for all the alts.

[Kromtor]

They're not "alts" if you play them at the same time as your main. An "alt" is a character you play when you want a break from your main. Just tell them you have your houseboys playing each character when raiding - then it'll be 1 roll per person which is what they so oddly desire.

[Xtremepayne]

So you're allowing ignorant people to continue to be ignorant - borderline stupid.

Good on you for taking the high road and avoiding the drama, but not all people are in this mind set.

I ran a Pug Naxx25 once with my tank and 2x Shaman. I did the last 6 bosses with them, me equally splitting my roles. 3 fights I was tank + 2x healers (healing both MT and OT) and 3 fights I was heal + 2x DPS (holy pally).

When it came to loot, I clearly asked do I get to roll on all three, or just one for all three, as I didn't want drama. The "raid leader" said "1 roll per three toons" and then about 5 people on vent proceeded to tell him he was wrong and that I should get 1 roll per toon, as I'm playing all three. (one person actually metioned that I was working harder than anyone else... lol).

So, they're are good people out there. The ones that tell you "1 roll for all toons" are just greedy loot whores and should be gkicked.

If they whole raid doesn't get geared, then the whole raid suffers.


Drama is exactly what I want to avoid. And Compromise is extactly what I have been doing. This is why I aksed this question here. I am not seeking special privledges.
My thought rather then give a 1 to 1 ratio of DKP, why not a 1.5 when I brink my alts. I would also have to stay to 1 bid per item on the character of choice that went on the event. The 1.5 would apply regardless of how many alts I bring to assist. Its not often that I bring them in a raid fashion but if I did, at least I would recieve something for my efforts. Or could this make me seem selfish?

[Naysayer]

So you're allowing ignorant people to continue to be ignorant - borderline stupid.

Good on you for taking the high road and avoiding the drama, but not all people are in this mind set.

I ran a Pug Naxx25 once with my tank and 2x Shaman. I did the last 6 bosses with them, me equally splitting my roles. 3 fights I was tank + 2x healers (healing both MT and OT) and 3 fights I was heal + 2x DPS (holy pally).

When it came to loot, I clearly asked do I get to roll on all three, or just one for all three, as I didn't want drama. The "raid leader" said "1 roll per three toons" and then about 5 people on vent proceeded to tell him he was wrong and that I should get 1 roll per toon, as I'm playing all three. (one person actually metioned that I was working harder than anyone else... lol).

So, they're are good people out there. The ones that tell you "1 roll for all toons" are just greedy loot whores and should be gkicked.

If they whole raid doesn't get geared, then the whole raid suffers.

qft


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[Mooni]

So you're allowing ignorant people to continue to be ignorant - borderline stupid.
Good on you for taking the high road and avoiding the drama, but not all people are in this mind set.

Whoa there, Voldemort - don't mistake my kindness for weakness.
I personally enjoy the drama, but I don't want to put someone I G.A.F. about in that position of having to defend me just because they ARE the raid leader and they ARE the one the decisions fall back on.
No matter how awesome-tastic I am, the raid is going to be at a DPS or HPS or TPS deficit the longer my other characters are in. Last week, doing XT-002, I managed to pull it off as a resto shaman/elemental shaman/BM hunter trio, because the raid needed people. We did it, and I would've made any of you proud with my FTL healbot add-killing heart-shooting spread-outing style.
Even so, I'm still not as good as 3 retarded rogues who get light bomb and gravity bomb and run circles around the heart killing the tank. Mostly because I spend all that time I could be DPSing instead spamming heals on the tank, in that situation, with the hunter inexplicably refusing to /follow the leader.

Mental note: I need to get a footpedal setup.

Anyway, I see myself as an enabler for the guild. Stuff dies faster when we bring a caffeinated A.D.D. rogue in and kick one of my DPS out. On gimmicky fights (read: every WotLK boss but Patchwerk) it's just that way.

But enough mixed messages about how awesome AND fail I am. My only point is: They're gonna be ignorant and stupid anyway. I don't see them like that, though. I see them as "I felt like that, so I started multiboxing to deal with those fears and insecurities and run people like that through heroics".

All this while not coming across as needy or having a chip on my shoulder if they ask me politely to remove one of my alts so that YET ANOTHER DK who just dinged 80 can get in the raid.