Castsequence macros are full of holes!

[Vicker]

For a while I have been using the following macro for my destro lock:


/castsequence reset=10,target immolate,,incinerate,,incinerate,,incinerate,,inci nerate,,conflagrate,
/cast chaos bolt
/stopmacro [target=pettarget,exists]
/petattack

The idea behind the double commas in the castsequence is for it to try to cast chaos bolt at every opportunity, and move on if the cooldown wasn't ready. After observing some odd behavior, I decided to try the following macro:


/castsequence reset=10,target immolate,incinerate,incinerate,incinerate,incinera te,conflagrate
/cast chaos bolt
/stopmacro [target=pettarget,exists]
/petattack

Notice that in the second macro, the double commas have been removed. Remarkably, the second macro showed the exact same behavior as the first macro. You wouldn't expect it to, but the second macro attempts to cast chaos bolt at every opportunity, but casts spells from the castsequence if chaos bolt is still on cooldown.

[Niley]

yes thats why you use click macros, with castsequence i could barely break 5k dps, switching to click gives me results like this:
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/7106/wowscrnshot090109014442.jpg

btw. I just included my lock in my team few days ago, so shes still a bit under geared.

[mmcookies]

If the results differ from your expectations, perhaps your initial model of how it works is in error.

[Vicker]

If the results differ from your expectations, perhaps your initial model of how it works is in error.

Would you care to explain how it works then?

[mmcookies]

No, I don't want to get it nerfed.

[KvdM]

Your first macro is how you would expect it to work. Your second macro works due to the same issue that normally makes you lose dps when you use a castsequence. The castsequence waits with casting the next spell until your client thinks it has finished casting the previous spell. While the castsequence is waiting for the previous spell cast to finish, it doesn't trigger the global cooldown and the macro falls through to the next command. Due to lag the server normally finishes casting the previous spell a 100-200ms earlier then the client expects it to be cast. This creates a small time frame during which the fall through spell can be cast.

Note that this fall through casting trick depends on both your lag, haste rating and the cast time of the spells used. Spells that have a casting time that matches or is close to the global cooldown, can prevent this trick from working.

[Khatovar]

This is not news. If you want macros that work the way you're trying to get this one to work, learn how to craft good /click macros.

[Niley]

try this for your lock
http://www.dual-boxing.com/showthread.php?t=24151

[Coyote]

This is not news. If you want macros that work the way you're trying to get this one to work, learn how to craft good /click macros.
It is my understanding /click in itself makes no difference for dps. Instead, the trick is transitioning from a "/castsequence x, y, z" setup to a "/castsequence x,,,,,,, /castsequence y,,,, /castsequence z,,,,,,,,,,,," setup. Click simply gets around the trouble with the 255 character limit in native macros (as well as some possible organizational perks by modularization).

If there is a dps difference between putting all the castsequences in the same macro (using an addon) instead of having them /clicked, I would love to know so I can improve my own setup.

[Ualaa]

Well... learning to craft Click macro's, is essentially saying - learn to create multiple cast sequence macro's with proper timing.

Click let's you weave all the abilities you'd want to use, into a single button spam.

[Vicker]

I have tried both /click and standard /castsequence macros. I must have a fast internet connection, because I don't see any difference.

[Whowantstoknow]

Well... learning to craft Click macro's, is essentially saying - learn to create multiple cast sequence macro's with proper timing.

Click let's you weave all the abilities you'd want to use, into a single button spam.

You misunderstood what Coyote was saying - you do not need to use /click to create a single button spam - you only need click to get round the 255 limit in your single button spam. If you are adverse to using addons (because they can become unsupported for example) then /click is the best way to go. For me using a macro extender like SuperDuper macro is a much more elegant solution.

[jimbobobb]

People don't use click to get around the character limit here. THey use it because /castsequence is a straight up loss of dps. There are tons and tons of posts about this guys, and people have done an incredible amount of testing. Please do some searching. Because of the way /castsequence works (waits for response from the server before moving along) you are losing time equal to your lag when you use it. People have done extensive testing with

/cast lightning bolt
vs.
/castsequence lightning bolt, lightning bolt

You would expect these to be the same right? wrong, because of the way castsequence works. So use click. Castsequence is garbage.

[ElectronDF]

I tried what someone suggested by putting a castsequence and a cast in the same macro. My cast NEVER went off. I used instant casts in my castsequence (who wants to stand still in a fight), so my cast never went off, since GCD stopped it. I also have <100ms latency (going to pretend that is fast), so never had time for my spells to have time to fall through. If it works for you, good deal. Just doesn't work for everyone. Maybe it has something to do with multiple clients on one machine, the back clients get a tiny bit of lag and it lets it work. Not sure. Just saying it doesn't work for me.

[Coyote]

People don't use click to get around the character limit here. THey use it because /castsequence is a straight up loss of dps. There are tons and tons of posts about this guys, and people have done an incredible amount of testing. Please do some searching. Because of the way /castsequence works (waits for response from the server before moving along) you are losing time equal to your lag when you use it. People have done extensive testing with

/cast lightning bolt
vs.
/castsequence lightning bolt, lightning bolt

You would expect these to be the same right? wrong, because of the way castsequence works. So use click. Castsequence is garbage.
This is the kind of misunderstanding I would like to clear up (whether I am the one who misunderstands it or not).

My understanding is this:
/castsequence is a loss of dps only if you have more spells in the same castsequence. This is because the client will not 'queue' the next spell with the server the way normal casting does.

Thus:
/castsequence A, B
Is bad because you will have an idle period equal to your latency between A finishing and B starting cast.

Whereas:
/castsequence A,,,,,,
/castsequence B,,,
Is good (assuming you can time your clicks to your commas), because A and B are no longer in the same /castsequence, so the client no longer holds up.

The point is that at both of these methods use /castsequence, and at no point does /click figure into the equation. /click has just sort of become synomymous with multiple castsequences, which is pretty misleading since /click has nothing to do with the dps difference. Saying /castsequnce is bad and /click is good doesn't exactly lead people to understand the problem or the solution. It is also a shame, because you get multiple posts from confused users wondering how they identify the names of their buttons and thinking /click is a magical dps boost.

[Bettysue]

/click methods just work as sort of a global advancement of several sequence macros.

Using /click you effectively press all your sequence macros until something goes off. This can help you with giving a bit of "weight" to spells you want to go off more often and lower the chance of a stuck sequence that missed a necessary debuff for casting another spell.

My guess is this method will be nerfed and sequences with a comma followed by a blank will be treated the same as commas followed by "null", effectively stopping the comma timing without removing the capability for which castsequence was intended.

Using castsequence in the manner it is being used here, kinda works as a crutch to the multiclass teams, but they can probably be just as effective with properly placed and written cast macros. I know the only thing I use click for is to avoid the 255 limit and simplify writing macros for use with FTL setups.

[Coyote]

Afaik, /click gets stuck at the exact same spots /castsequence does.

E.g. if you have 3 buttons with:
/castsequence Flameshock,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
/castsequence Lava Burst,,,,,,,,,,
/cast Ligthning Bolt
plus a spam macro to /click them in this order.

Then, if you spam too fast, your /castsequence Lava Burst,,,,,,,,,, will wrap around back to Lava Burst before it is off the cooldown, and you will be stuck waiting for Lava Burst to go off cd, with no spells (not even lightning bolt) firing.

Since this method is largely dependent on timing your clicks (player skill.. of sorts) to produce optimal results, I doubt they will work hard to kill it off.

[SmartJelly]

Based on my personal observations...

When I cast (spam button) using a cast sequence, eg

/castsequence Wrath

..the cast bar pops appears, fills all the way to the right, turns green and flashes then fades away. Only then is the next cast started. If it's an instant cast spell then there's no cast bar and the next cast starts after the global cooldown is over.

When I cast without a sequence, eg:

/cast Wrath

..the cast bar doesn't always reach the end before starting the next cast (there is no change to green, flash or fade) and the time between casts decreases (increasing dps).

As the OP noticed, and some may already know, a macro such as:

/castsequence wibble
/cast wobble

..will drop down to the wobble spell after casting wibble (if wibble isn't instant and you start/click/press/spam the macro at the right time).

Additionally, casting wobble will also cut short the cast bar animation of Wibble in the same way as observed with /cast Wrath above (but only is wobble isn't instant). Wobble will in turn be cut short by Wibble.

Because Wrath and Starfire are neither instant or have a cooldown, there would be no benefit (other than personal preference/size/etc) in using /click instead of the following:

/castsequence Starfire
/castsequence Wrath

Indeed, one could extend this with no loss due to castsequence delays:

/castsequence [target=focustarget] Starfire
/castsequence [target=focustarget] Insect Swarm, Moonfire, Wrath, Wrath, Wrath

(edit: this isn't right as there'd be a delay between SF, IS and also SF,MF)

However, if the next spell on the 2nd line has a cooldown then casting will continue with the 1st line sequence and be subject to delay. Thus:

/castsequence Lightning Bolt
/castsequence Flame Shock, Lava Burst

..will be delayed between concurrent LB casts until Lava Burst is off cooldown (Flame Shock is instant so doesn't help with delay).

Note: A cast will never be cut short if it's followed by an instant cast, using /click, /cast, manual casting, or whatever.

The /click method (or more specifically the use of additional commas) can be used to rejig macros such that they suffer less from cast sequence delays, but it's still obeys the rules/observations stated above, and it all works off the bug/feature mentioned by the OP.

[Coyote]

Actually, the commas are mostly used for timing.

As you noted,
/castsequence Lightning Bolt
/castsequence Flame Shock, Lava Burst
Will drop down to the second line if you hit the macro the moment your cast is finished on the server but still not finished in the client.

However, this has little practical value in most dps rotations.

As an elemental shaman, my ideal rotation is to Flame Shock every 18 seconds to refresh the dot, Lava Burst every time its off cooldown (8 seconds), and fill the void with Lightning Bolts (ignoring Chain Lightning for the moment).

If I make a macro with "/castsequence Flame Shock" followed by 17 commas, and I press it exactly once every second, the net effect is that Flame Shock is cast every 18 seconds as desired. Furthermore, the 17 clicks after each Flame Shock are not consumed, but will 'fall through' and be able to initiate spells further down the macro. As an added bonus, the latency loss of concurrent spells in the same cast sequence is avoided. And it is haste proof to boot.

The ability to time how frequently every spell in your rotation is cast (for any value of haste and heroism), in combination with avoiding the latency hit classic /castsequences suffer, is what gives the concurrent castsequence method it's strength. But it requires a fairly consistent rate of button presses, something I am sorely deficient at :rolleyes:

[SmartJelly]

However, this has little practical value in most dps rotations.

As an elemental shaman, my ideal rotation is...

I was not trying to offer advice on rotations, I was trying to describe the mechanics of the effect described in the original post and its relationship to castsequence delays.

I would agree that comma sequences are one of the tools at our disposal for improving macros. :)

[SmartJelly]

E.g. if you have 3 buttons with:
/castsequence Flameshock,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
/castsequence Lava Burst,,,,,,,,,,
/cast Ligthning Bolt
plus a spam macro to /click them in this order.


Actually, the commas are mostly used for timing.
As you noted,
/castsequence Lightning Bolt
/castsequence Flame Shock, Lava Burst

Off topic from the original post (but in keeping with the rest of it)... This would be a good example of how a comma sequence can be used to good effect to improve on the sequence below it. The Lightning Bolt is no longer on a cast sequence and won't be subject to any associated delays, and the fire spells can potentially be better timed to match their cooldowns.


yes thats why you use click macros

But does the use of 3 buttons and an additional /click provide any additional benefit beyond personal preference/macro size? It seems to me that the term "/click" has been associated with certain dps enhancements that aren't directly reliant on /click itself. Thus the notion of l2click is slightly misleading.

[Whowantstoknow]

There is no dps gain by using /click over multiple /castsequences in a single macro. /click just avoids the problem of the character limit when using those /castsequences.

[dubiox]

There is no dps gain by using /click over multiple /castsequences in a single macro. /click just avoids the problem of the character limit when using those /castsequences.

I used to think that too. You guys should listen to Niley and Fur (and others), they have tested this extensively and shown otherwise. I went from 2500 dps to 4500 dps by switching to click. I was pretty skeptical until I tried it.

Before that I went from 1800 to 2500 by switching from FTL to focus.

-K

[Whowantstoknow]

I used to think that too. You guys should listen to Niley and Fur (and others), they have tested this extensively and shown otherwise. I went from 2500 dps to 4500 dps by switching to click. I was pretty skeptical until I tried it.

Before that I went from 1800 to 2500 by switching from FTL to focus.

-K

You are incorrect - to increase your dps that much you fundamentally changed your rotation.

Consider these two methods

All in one version
/castsequence FS,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
/castsequence LvB,,,,,,,,,
/cast LB

/Click Method
/Click Button 1
/Click Button 2
/Click Button 3

#Button 1
/castsequence FS,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

#Button 2
/castsequence LvB,,,,,,,,,

#Button 3
/cast LB

They will give you the same dps hence there is no dps gain using /click - the dps gain is from using a method that allows you to prioritise your spells.

/click allows you to extend your macro beyond the normal 255 characters it does not change the way macros work

[Whowantstoknow]

You can change macros mid combat using the all in one version - you could have 2 macros for example

all in 1 with CL
/castsequence FS,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
/castsequence LvB,,,,,,,,,
/Castsequence CL,,,,,,,,,,
/cast LB

all in 1 without CL
/castsequence FS,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
/castsequence LvB,,,,,,,,,
/cast LB

and swap them out

But the method I am using is this

All in 1 with optional CL
/castsequence FS,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
/castsequence LvB,,,,,,,,,
/Castsequence [mod:ctrl] CL,,,,,,,,,,;, (note the semi colon and extra comma at the end
/cast LB

Then I just hold ctrl when I want to CL

/shrug both methods work and it is down to personal preference but I wanted to dispel the myth that /click increases dps. It has its uses and is an awesome tool but it in itself does not increase dps

edit: just wanted to add that I use /click to add windshear to my rotation for certain bosses so I certainly am not adverse to using it I just want to help people to understand why they are using /click and not use it without needing to

so my macro is this

/Click Button1
/castsequence FS,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
/castsequence LvB,,,,,,,,,
/Castsequence [mod:ctrl] CL,,,,,,,,,,;,
/cast LB

I could easily switch this to

/Click Button1
/castsequence FS,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
/castsequence LvB,,,,,,,,,
/Click Button 2
/cast LB

ie use all in one for your core rotation and /click for the optional spells

[Whowantstoknow]

Wow that was constructive :rolleyes: