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jak3676
07-29-2009, 04:37 PM
Solid State Drives (SSDs)

Index:
I. Need for faster hard drives and WoW
II. Intro to SSDs and a note of caution
III. Price Shopping
IV. Remaining Issues

Hopefully a little background information for some of you looking at picking up a SSD. I have a few questions throughout that I’d like some solid answers on too if anyone can help.


I. Need for faster hard drives and WoW
*skip this section if you already know why we needed faster hard drives for multiboxing

The old standard recommendation for multiboxers (multiple instances of WoW on one PC) was to get a few hard drives and split your WoW folders across the separate drives. The reasoning was pretty obvious. When you first start WoW, your PC needs to load a lot of the game into memory, hence the loading screen when you first start. Two WoW folders on the same drive isn’t too bad, but you’ll notice that the loading screen takes twice as long, if not 2.5x times as long. When you are playing the game and running/riding from zone to zone, WoW is pretty good about loading the new zone into memory as you go. But when you do a major change, like hearthing, portals or just taking the blimp/boat ride, then the game needs to load the new zone all at once and you’ll get the loading screen again.

With multi-boxing this isn’t just a matter of the load screen taking longer – it can actually make the game unplayable. When I first started multi-boxing with 3 accounts I’d hop on the blimp from Org to UC and I’d get the loading screen (Indiana Jones-like map) on a 3 screens. Then about 5 min later, while I was still waiting for the map to tell me I was at the new stage and I could get off the blimp – the map would switch and tell me that I was on the way back to where I started. It would go back and forth like this every few minutes as my PC couldn’t load 3 copies of the new zone faster than it took the blimp to head back and forth. I'd never even be able to get off the blimp. I learned to only put 2 chars on the blimp at one time, until I eventually got a 2nd hard drive and some more RAM.

Even if you get around the problem I had with blimp rides, you’ll get similar issues just on a much smaller scale when you’re playing. The hard drive will have to load multiple copies of some file all at once – if it can’t do this fast enough you may get some lag or stutter when playing. So we all learned to split up our WoW folders so that we’d get better response from our hard drives.

Pulling some numbers out of thin air – lets say every instance of WoW needs to load 1GB of information from your hard drive into RAM. Lets also say that any given hard drive can load 1GB of information in 1 min. So if you have 5 copies of WoW on the same hard drive and they all need to load this information at once – it will take 5 min. But if you install 2 more hard drives (OS and 1 install on hard drive A; 2 WoW installs on hard drive B, and 2 more WoW installs on hard drive C), then it will only take you 2 min to load the same amount of information.


II. Intro to SSD’s and a note of caution

I’ve been patiently following the reviews on SSDs for some time. The benefits look great – there’s reviews of people claiming to boot windows in under 10 seconds. Using our above example, lets say that an SSD could load 10GB of information in 1 min (10x faster than our old hard drives). So instead of taking 2 min to load all 5 installs, now we can do it only 30 seconds. So instead of buying lots of separate hard drives, we just buy 1 (maybe 2) SSD’s and get even better performance. Sounds great – but of course SSDs are expensive.

As soon as I started to see prices dropping, I was ready to jump in with both feet, but then I saw articles like these.

http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=3531
and
http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=3535

If you haven’t read them – I’d highly recommend the read. The short version is that a lot of people were buying a lot of cheap SSDs and getting very disappointed. The culprit was determined to be cheap memory controllers that performed terribly when it came to random write performance. Your OS spends a good deal of it’s time doing random writes, so if you bought one of the mass market SSDs you’d end up with all kinds of stutter just running windows. This problem doesn’t appear until the drive has been used for some time. People were seeing performance on random writes at something like 1/10th the speed of a standard 7200 RPM disk drive.

There was only 1 brand that did a really good job tweaking its controller for random write performance – Intel. Those drives were originally crazy expensive. OCZ came out with their Vertex brand of drives that had a good-enough memory controller. Since then a lot of companies have switched to improved memory controllers, but many of the cheap ones are still in the market. It can be very difficult to tell which memory controller any specific dive may actually use just by looking at the brand.

But I have to ask – how does this impact WoW and multi-boxing? I would guess (although I’ve never verified) that WoW, even in a multi-box environment, doesn’t do a lot of random writes to the hard drive. For a dedicated WoW drive (OS running somewhere else), do we need to be concerned with anything other than large block sequential reads? Is a cheap SSD with a cheap memory controller better than a bunch of regular disk drives?

This is really a bang-for-your-buck sort of question. In a perfect world, we’d all go buy a separate Intel SSD for every installation of WoW and RAID a few more together for your OS. But most of us can’t (won’t) spend that much on hard drives. So where is the point of diminishing returns?

The jury may still be out on whether these cheap memory controller SSDs are all we really need so long as our OS is on a separate hard drive. But for those of you that multi-box a little bit on your laptops or anyone limited to only 1 hard drive, make sure you get a drive with both good read and random write speeds.

jak3676
07-29-2009, 04:37 PM
III. Price Shopping

Looking at my current WoW folders they are all between 15 and 16GB in size for a WOLK install. I’ve never really looked to how much can be cleaned up from these. Anyone have a significantly smaller or larger WoW folder? I’d also plan on leaving at least a little room for new patches, maybe even the next expansion. Unless someone knows of a good way to shrink this folder, I’d say we’re looking at 20-25GB depending how much room we want to leave for future growth.

Size of Windows installs also very greatly. I just installed Windows 7 release candidate (64-bit version) and I remember it saying I needed at least 20 GB of hard drive space. Even if you want to have a dedicated machine to WoW multiboxing, I’d suggest you leave some more room for your OS and a few essential programs (web browser, ventrillo, keyclone, etc).

Going back to standard hard drives, this isn’t much of an issue at all. There’s basically no price difference between 80GB, 160GB and 320GB drives – you can pretty much take your pick for $50. A good rule of thumb for standard hard drives is never to allow your hard drive to get more that 50% full. After that it starts slowing down. By the time you get to 75% full, you may only be at ½ the speed of a mostly empty drive. But even with the smaller hard drives from a few years ago - space isn't really an issue.

SSDs don’t have that same limitation, but of course they come in much smaller sizes and with bigger price tags. You can even pretty safely plan on filling them up 90% full without performance issues. It’s probably not realistic to get 2 WoW installs on a 32GB drive. Currently I’m seeing prices from $100-$200 for 32GB drives, so it’s just not real price competitive anyway when compared to 64GB drives,

Doing a quick check on Newegg.com for 64+GB drives came up with the following:

The cheapest entry level (inferior memory controller) 64GB drive is selling for $130 - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820139006
The cheapest “good enough” memory controller 64GB SSD is $196 - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820609393
The Intel mainstream 80GB drive is sold out at $305 – http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820167005
Finally the Intel extreme edition 64GB drive is $670 – http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820167014

Pretty big price difference there between the top and bottom. I’d guess that we’d all agree the Intel Extreme drive is overkill for WoW. It’s designed for things like enterprise network file share and webservers, etc. But there’s still a big gap between $130 and $305.

When we jump up to the 120+GB sized drive here’s what I see at Newegg.com:

The cheap drives (inferior memory controller) start at $240 for 128GB – http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820139007
The cheapest “good enough” memory controller 120GB SSD is $300 - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227462
The mainstream Intel 160GB SSDs are sold out again, but were at $600 – http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820167015
Finally there’s an SLC SSD (think Intel Extreme Edition clone) 120GB SSD that’s sold out for $1,300 - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227443

Intel is supposed to have their 2nd generation drives available soon, and at a lower cost (closer to $225 - 80GB & $440 – 160GB). But they’ve supposedly been out for a week now and I’m not seeing them in stock anywhere. Hopefully all the prices will drop a bit once the Intel drives are on the streets. http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=3607&p=1

If you’ve been following the memory controller issus – these are the only recommended SSDs for running an OS on.


Drive Controller The Same As
Intel X25-M Intel N/A
Patriot Torqx Indilinx Barefoot (MLC) Corsair Extreme Series X128, G.Skill Falcon, OCZ Vertex, SuperTalent UltraDrive ME
OCZ Agility Indilinx Barefoot (non Samsung MLC) N/A
OCZ Vertex EX Indilinx Barefoot (SLC) SuperTalent UltraDrive LE
OCZ Summit Samsung RBB (MLC) Corsair Performance Series P256


I can’t find these new Intel drives in stock anywhere – but here’s where pricing is supposed to end up.

Drive NAND Capacity Cost per GB Price
Intel X25-M (34nm) 80GB $2.81 $225
Intel X25-M (34nm) 160GB $2.75 $440
OCZ Vertex (Indilinx) 64GB $3.41 $218
OCZ Vertex (Indilinx) 128GB $3.00 $385
Patriot Torqx (Indilinx) 64GB $3.48 $223
Patriot Torqx (Indilinx) 128GB $2.85 $365
OCZ Agility (Indilinx, non-Samsung Flash) 64GB $2.77 $177
OCZ Agility (Indilinx, non-Samsung Flash) 128GB $2.57 $329
OCZ Summit (Samsung) 128GB $3.04 $389


All of these drives and the other models based on them, use the inferior memory controllers are NOT SUITABLE to run as your primary drive

JMicron JMF602B Based SSDs
G.Skill FM-25S2
G.Skill Titan
OCZ Apex
OCZ Core V2
OCZ Solid
Patriot Warp
SuperTalent MasterDrive



IV. Remaining Issues

RAID and SSDs? Some SSDs do support RAIDing them together. Some do not. Even of those that support it, make sure it works with the raid controller that you plan to use.

For the purposes of WoW multiboxing, RAIDing a bunch of SSDs together is probably overkill. You could probably pick up one of the good 128-160GB SSDs and put 5 WoW installs on it along with your OS and a few other programs and still get better results than someone running with 5 good 7200RPM hard drives all RAIDed together. But I don’t actually have any benchmarks with either of these, so if someone does I’d love to see a comparison.

Multiple SSDs? There is still some benefit from limiting the number of WoW installs on one physical hard drive. But I would consider it overkill to try to pick up a series of 32GB SSDs and only put one copy of WoW on each drive. Again I don’t have any benchmarks to prove or disprove my point so if anyone has some in-game comparisons between multiple installs on 1 SSD vs separate SSDs – please let us know.

Benefits of having your OS (or at least your swap file) on an SSD? This is my biggest question at the moment. I know that even with more than the required amount of RAM (8-12GB) your OS will still attempt to write some information to your swap file. Some people can successfully eliminate your swap file, but that does cause errors with some programs. Keeping your OS and swap file on an SSD should speed that function up dramatically

SSDs as weak substitute for RAM? Say you are 5-boxing and you run to Dalaran, which is very RAM intensive. If you don’t have enough physical RAM your PC will write information to your “virtual memory” – which is a protected folder on your hard drive. Doing this to and from a SSD is obviously much faster than a tradition hard drive. But it is still much slower than reading/writing to RAM. But for those looking to squeeze the most of out of an older 32-bit system that is capped at 3.5/4GB of RAM; is upgrading to an SSD a better bang-for-your-buck than buying a new 64-bit OS and more RAM? I can see either one costing about $300, but I’m not sure which you should upgrade first.

jak3676
07-29-2009, 04:57 PM
Here's what I'm planning on getting

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227462

120GB OCZ Agility SSD - $300. I'll play around with it and my current 2 hard drives for a bit to see how it works best. (I currently have an older 320 GB drive - 7200 RPM, 8MB cache and a new 1TB drive - 7200 RPM, 32MB cache.) I'm guessing that I'll be best off by putting my OS and all 5 WoW installs on the SSD.

Liquidity
07-29-2009, 10:22 PM
Just Bought this on Egghead. Got Kickass rating 9 out of 10 on MaximumPC. I can not wait to install it!



http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820220389&ref=dynamitedata.com

Exanth
07-29-2009, 11:09 PM
You may not need to install all 3 copies, thereby reducing the amount of space actually needed, making the smaller drives much more viable.

http://www.dual-boxing.com/wiki/index.php/Vista

This has information on symbolic linking.

I would not even try it on a regular HDD, but I think the faster access times would make it a good plan with a SSD.

grap
07-30-2009, 01:44 PM
Great ssd but.... if you have enough ram on your mother board and enough video ram on you CG, you dont need at all.

I test myself and i saw a huge difference between 512/1024 MB graphic card ( sapphir 4870x 512MB versus msi gtx 285 1GB) with i7+12GB RAM than my X4 ssd hardware raid 0 ( adaptec 2405 ) versus one velociraptor 300GB

bizcotti4
07-30-2009, 03:05 PM
ive had one simlinked to my wow installs and it really cuts down on load screens but i cant say it really affects gameplay all that much. my slave comp has x64 os and 8gb ram, so most of that information is already on either my ram or gpu ram which would explain it, but if your lacking in those capacities definatly go for it. almost instant load screens are nice too ;)

Bovidae
07-30-2009, 05:54 PM
You may not need to install all 3 copies, thereby reducing the amount of space actually needed, making the smaller drives much more viable.

http://www.dual-boxing.com/wiki/index.php/Vista ('http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/../wiki/index.php/Vista')

This has information on symbolic linking.

I would not even try it on a regular HDD, but I think the faster access times would make it a good plan with a SSD.^THIS

I only have the \DATA folder on my computer once, it lives all by itself on a dedicated drive and the Wow installs, which live on a Raptor, all point to the same copy.

byte
08-22-2009, 08:40 PM
http://www.toshibadirect.com/td/b2c/adet.to?poid=450025

just bought this 80gb intel drive (2nd gen) for $242

It's ample size and decent price, and the newer Generation!

When i recieve it, i'll be loading
Kubuntu 9.04 with the new EXT4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GKohxZHNg4
WoW, (just one copy, never used multiple copies)
Keyclone!

Dawnstrider
08-23-2009, 11:16 AM
The computer I multibox on is one I bought a few when SSD's had first come out. I payed the high price for the drive and and love it. I 'box 4 wow's at once with no problems at all. I couldnt tell you the brand. Best I can do is tell you that its an Alieware Laptop. Just thought you'd like to know 4 copies of Wow run just fine off the same drive for me. And Im sure signifigant progress has been made in SSD's since I bought mine.

Sam DeathWalker
08-23-2009, 01:45 PM
Great ssd but.... if you have enough ram on your mother board and enough video ram on you CG, you dont need at all.

I test myself and i saw a huge difference between 512/1024 MB graphic card ( sapphir 4870x 512MB versus msi gtx 285 1GB) with i7+12GB RAM than my X4 ssd hardware raid 0 ( adaptec 2405 ) versus one velociraptor 300GB


This has my vote, based upon how wow loads textures and how textures cause "texture lag".

Owltoid
08-24-2009, 09:44 AM
I see no lag in my system, and Dalaran, WG, and AV load up in about 1-3 seconds on 5 clients (often 1 second). Although a RAM drive may be the future, an SSD is all you need for 5 boxing currently. I don't have symlinking, multiple installs, or anything like that, and I use the "cheap" RiData 32GB MLC drive.

If you have enough cores, RAM, and video card, then just get a small SSD and your lag problems will be non-existant.

Multibocks
08-26-2009, 12:04 AM
When you install this drive, how easy is it to transfer the OS? Say vista64?

BobGnarly
08-29-2009, 11:32 AM
I have an SSD drive. It's OK, but honestly, I didn't notice much difference. I think a well tuned system with a solid HD (velociraptors) will perform very close. Having enough RAM is the key to not making the HD a factor.

What I'm planning to do is get another 12G of RAM and just load wow into a RAM drive. I actually don't think this will matter that much, but 12G is pretty cheap, so what the hell. :)