is there a reason why loads of people are gimping themselves by using focustarget instead of targettarget?

[Simulacra]

I think the title says it all

I've noticed a general shift away from targettarget in the last year - why is that? Is it because all the example macros use focustarget or is there some other reason. Has everyone forgotten targettarget? Why would people use focustarget when targettarget is plainly superior?

[Nitro]

Please support your post with reasons that you find targettarget superior so that we can have a real discussion. Pros and Cons, I would love to hear the specific points because at times i find that focustarget is unreliable on fast target switching.

[ElectronDF]

Cons of Target-target.
You have to target something. It takes time to target something and then change targets constantly. If you want to heal, you are left with no target to attack until you target again. Notice all the targeting you do?
If focus has no target, focus-target fails and nothing happens. If you target something and it has no target, you end up with still your target which is probably not what you want to use.
Just the use of the word target usually teaches people to use /target instead of [target= ]. Which takes tiny bits of room in macros. It doesn't let you check multiple conditions [target=focus-target, help][target=focus].
If you don't change targets, you can actually cast on a different mob and still have a target......./cast [target=focus-target] DPSSpell........./cast CCSpell, the DPS spell goes as an assist but your target never changed, so you still have the mob you want to CC targeted.
There are probably a couple more, but that should start things off.

[Simulacra]

Please support your post with reasons that you find targettarget superior so that we can have a real discussion. Pros and Cons, I would love to hear the specific points because at times i find that focustarget is unreliable on fast target switching.I'll see what I can dig up from the archives.

edit: found it : The No Focus Manifesto v0.1 ('http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=8052') <-- the no focus manifesto

this was from way back in June 08 - the general consensus back then was that targettarget was quicker than focustarget when switching targets. I remember switching from focus to the target method and noticed that my slaves switched much more quickly to the new target and never again experienced focus lag. After this the targettarget approach took prominence but was eventually swamped with new boxers using focustarget due to focustarget being the example of choice in the example macros.

[Simulacra]

Cons of Target-target.
You have to target something. It takes time to target something and then change targets constantly. If you want to heal, you are left with no target to attack until you target again. Notice all the targeting you do?
If focus has no target, focus-target fails and nothing happens. If you target something and it has no target, you end up with still your target which is probably not what you want to use.
Just the use of the word target usually teaches people to use /target instead of [target= ]. Which takes tiny bits of room in macros. It doesn't let you check multiple conditions [target=focus-target, help][target=focus].
If you don't change targets, you can actually cast on a different mob and still have a target......./cast [target=focus-target] DPSSpell........./cast CCSpell, the DPS spell goes as an assist but your target never changed, so you still have the mob you want to CC targeted.
There are probably a couple more, but that should start things off.read the manifesto for more info - The No Focus Manifesto v0.1 ('http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=8052&pageNo=1')
in fact I'm going to bump it

[olipcs]

Maybe I don't get it, or didn't see the exact point in the 'No fucs-manifesto-thread' why it should be faster (so, feel free to point me there ;) ), but...

...honestly I simply don't know if a 'target-target' or 'focus-target' is realy quicker, when changing targets (and by targets I mean the target of your 'main', so the target you want to dps), because I would guess, since both 'focus' and 'target' are known to the client, that what WoW would do for a :

/cast [target=focus-target] ...

is to evaluate on the client the ID (or name, or whatever) of the thing stored in 'focus' and send something like '/cast [target=ID-target] ...' to the server and this would be the same for '/cast [target=target-target] ..' , so I honestly don't see why 'target-target' should be faster for casting the dps-spell ...

..what might be the case is, that setting the 'target' might be quicker than setting the focus, but in both setups this would only happen when the leader has to change (so in your suggested setup, when he dies), and this shouldn't be every second...

What I would see as a 'con' against the 'target-target' option is, that when you PVP you might have some problems:

1. You point your enemy directly to your main-toon (because all your slaves have him as their target)
2. You have a fixed order of 'mains' (if you use the exact macros from the 'no focus...')
3. You would have problems navigating your group when they are split and to far away for follow (happens often in AV with the graveyards) (this is also true for most fous-setups)
4. You can't use '/castsequences' with 'reset=target' in your macros (because your target will allways be the 'main')

Honestly, some of this limitations are also true for using 'focus' (..and thats why I use a customized FTL for this...).

[Ughmahedhurtz]

I think the title says it all

I've noticed a general shift away from targettarget in the last year - why is that? Is it because all the example macros use focustarget or is there some other reason. Has everyone forgotten targettarget? Why would people use focustarget when targettarget is plainly superior?Physical damage classes. Cannot autoattack/autoshot something that isn't your current target. Consider how many hunters, paladins, DKs, rogues and feral druids (WOO!) are currently being boxed and I think you'll have your answer. ;)

[Moorea]

I use assist focus and then regular spells; attacks on the actual toon's target and it's fine so far

[Otlecs]

It's good to remind people that there are a few options on how to set things up, but I don't think any of them actually gimps you. They all work and it comes down to what you're used to and what your personal playstyle is like.

I've been using a modified version of the no-focus-manifesto before it even had a name (I came up with it myself), and am very, very happy with it. I wouldn't swap to a focus-based system if you paid me to, but I'm sure there are people who feel the exact opposite :)

I can see definite advantages over the focus method for my particular playstyle, which involves crowd control in some of my teams (for which I use focus) and sometimes distributing attacks across multiple targets when unloading everything on a single target would just be pointless over-kill.

A non-focus-based system also means I don't need macros for every single spell. It means I can see without doubt who has what target, even if I've deliberately given them different targets.

It means I can use reset=target conditionals in the macros I do use, to make sure I open up with the right thing even if the previous sequence didn't complete.

And with my method of follow and assist, control automatically and seemlessly transfers without me typing a single thing - they automatically start taking follow / assist / focus instructions from the "next" master when the current master is dead or far out of range.

I have no problem believing that the focus-target system makes target swapping quicker, but I've had no problem dealing with targeting lag since about the first week I started boxing (which was a shade over two years ago).

To each their own though :thumbsup:

[Simulacra]

I think the title says it all

I've noticed a general shift away from targettarget in the last year - why is that? Is it because all the example macros use focustarget or is there some other reason. Has everyone forgotten targettarget? Why would people use focustarget when targettarget is plainly superior?Physical damage classes. Cannot autoattack/autoshot something that isn't your current target. Consider how many hunters, paladins, DKs, rogues and feral druids (WOO!) are currently being boxed and I think you'll have your answer. ;)ah I should explain myself better - for caster types it's better - however when I need to melee I just use a melee specific macro - there's no reason not to mix it up. targettarget for caster operations and assist for melee. they're not mutually exclusive. eg:

/follow target
/assist [target=target, exists]
/startattack

;) right back atcha

otlec: I agree totally, different options are good. What I'm I'm trying to do is raise awareness of the targettarget approach as it appears to have been forgotten which I think is a shame. I still think though that focustarget is gimped lol.

morea: try targettarget and see the difference
olipcs: targettarget is quicker when your main is changing targets - an example here is utgarde keep and the two bosses after prince where you need to down them at the same time - I switch between the two on a regular basis with no misfires. Your pvp points are well made, I personally do not use the failover but use pip swap to manage the team where the pip swap key sets the new main as the target which again is quicker than focus.

[olipcs]

targettarget is quicker when your main is changing targets if this is realy the case (and honestly I can't tell, because I never have used a focus-approach), I would realy like to know, why it is quicker, so if you can give me some hint where to look its realy appreciated...

[Simulacra]

targettarget is quicker when your main is changing targets if this is realy the case (and honestly I can't tell, because I never have used a focus-approach), I would realy like to know, why it is quicker, so if you can give me some hint where to look its realy appreciated...I'd love to know as well, been researching it but I'm unable to find a discussion - possibly look in the archives here. It's really noticeable on high latency connections (me at 430-450) when using focustarget and I switch target my shammies continue to fire on the old target for a second or so then switch. I'm guessing its all down to what focustarget is really for. As far as I'm aware the whole pupose of focus was for secondary targeting functions like cc and heals to the mt while your dpsing the actual target.

[Julgas]

I'm using something like :
/assist [target=focus,help][target=party1]

This way, when i use a 5-man group (99% of the time), i just have one touch to press to change the leader.
3 key in one on a G15 macro (yeah, i know it's bad, but...) :
the first is a macro /jamba setmeasmaster all with a do-not-pass-key on keyclone.
the second is a macro who set my page bar to the second action bar on all character
and the third set my page bar to one, it's a do-not-pass-key so it's only for my main.

This way, i have only one key to press, and my current windows is my new main character.

And on battlegroups or raid, i just use the focus.

[Otlecs]

I'm using something like : [...]
All of which is many, many times more complex than the scheme proposed under the No-Focus Manifesto :)

You don't need to actively switch anything.
You don't need to use multiple action bars(!!!).
You don't need do-not-pass lists.
You don't need to break the ToS by having your G-15 generate three separate keystrokes for a single press.

The more I think about this (and it's the first time I've really thought about it in well over a year) the more I think Sim's onto something here. You guys are gimping yourself!

Just kidding. Probably. ;)

Over the years, I really think people have over-complicated what is actually a very, very simple process.

[Simulacra]

The more I think about this (and it's the first time I've really
thought about it in well over a year) the more I think Sim's onto
something here. You guys are gimping yourself!



Just kidding. Probably. ;)



Over the years, I really think people have over-complicated what is actually a very, very simple process.
woo hoo! 1 down - a multitude to go :D
yes, definitely. we need to get back to basics. I've even thought about reduction even further to basic assist wondering what the performance would be like...any thoughts anyone? How does /assist compare to targettarget or focustarget for ease of macro writing, performance and brain death?

julgas: your method makes my brain hurt

[heffner]

I'll give this a shot. I currently don't have much issues with my current set up, but I can see saving that time lag being beneficial in some situations.

I am now thinking that I should go through all the posts on this forum from it's inception.

[Jubber]

Well this is kinda the same as min/maxing.

The use of focus in your macro's allows the basic joe the quickest and easiest route for multiboxing. As we get further along in our boxing adventures we find things that help us improve our play. Whether that means we move onto an FTL setup or a more quick response type setup for things like PVP where less lag for target switching can mean worlds of difference.

I see it much along the lines of the available software as well. Starting off Keyclone is awesome. DL, buy it and start multiboxing. Then you may choose to move onto other software that might meet your needs a little more. Hotkeynet, innserspace, Octopus.

To each his own but that's just how I view it.

[Owltoid]

I use an FTL setup. I prefer this method because it leaves the focus target available for CC. Before approaching a group in PvE (or if you're stealthed like us druids before approaching a team in PvP) then you can set up your focus targets for each slave. From then on, whenever you hit your "mass CC" button you will find all your slaves casting at their appropriate CC target. If you didn't have focus available to do this, then I'm not sure how CCing the middle of a battle would be possible.

[zanthor]

As the author of the Leaderless/Targetless - Focus Based Hydra ('http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=14434') system and a user of the FTL system under Innerspace and a previous user of a targettarget based system I can tell you that I like the FTL the best.

When I was using Focus Based Hydra I ran into problems with my mages and being able to CC. Focus was taken obviously so I worked my CC around target based macros and it worked but wasn't as reliable as I'd have liked. All said and done it was frustrating to try and utilize.

The FTL system is VERY reliable, however it requires a significant amount of setup that I'd never have done without ISBoxers native support of it. The way I have it setup now is flawless, works in and out of vehicles, and has absolutely no drawbacks for me... the ONLY issue I ever have is when one of the clients (or all) get a chat box open, but tahts going to bugger ANY system since chat boxes eat keystrokes.

[Caspian]

Leveling my shaman team I am using a very simple focus based system

1 macro
/focus <leader name>
/assist focus

cast normal spells, not in macro

Pros
Setup time was under 1 minute
no thinking involved
if I want to CC or DPS one thing while main is doing something else just target one mash macro main targets new mob
Cons
have to hit the one macro everytime I change targets and want to move DPS
not flexible at all

This will not be enough to PvP or run harder instances - works fine in UK at 68-70.

Now when i was playing my warlocks I tried a focus system and an assist system and they were both much slower the my FTL set up ended up making - I actually documented the process here Warlock & Priest Macro ('http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&postID=88140&highlight=priest+warlock+macro'). This was my very first team, ever so there were some thing I missed or would do differently now - so be nice. We actually had a bit of a discussion on FTL vs Focus in my thread too.
My play style was dot dot dot run, new target - dotting as many targets as I could at a time. Before I went FTL on these guys I would often have an alt refresh dot #1 or start with dot #2 on the new mob with dot#1 going into the nether. Of course RAF was announced shortly after I made the group and they were abandoned.

So I think it boils down to what you are doing, how you are doing it and how much time you want to invest in your set up - at least to just get playing.
I think FTL is mandatory for any serious PvP or anytime where you have to switch targets fast all the time.
Focus is easier to set up.

[aboron]

I'm rather fond of just using target for your actual target, i know it seems like a novel concept any more. :P

And for setting that target, i just have an FTL style button, which basically uses a "targetexact" for any one of the 5 based on who's current main, and then assists and just leaves the assist target up. This is very easy for PvE, I can understand there might be a good reason not to leave a target up in PvP, but i don't do it. It also lets me keep dpsing the same target i've got all my tank's threat against while the tank can feel free to swap targets and build up a little pre-agro on the up and coming target, or and new mobs that have come along and like the healer a lot.

I do have to hit the button each time i want dps to change targets, but really it's not that hard to do. And since the target button is FTL, I can just start driving from a new main at any moment. Of course, having innerspace automatically rewrite the targetexact macro for the group i'm playing when I load up the team is really what makes the whole thing an option in my opinion.

[Tdog]

I think the title says it all

I've noticed a general shift away from targettarget in the last year - why is that? Is it because all the example macros use focustarget or is there some other reason. Has everyone forgotten targettarget? Why would people use focustarget when targettarget is plainly superior?Physical damage classes. Cannot autoattack/autoshot something that isn't your current target. Consider how many hunters, paladins, DKs, rogues and feral druids (WOO!) are currently being boxed and I think you'll have your answer. ;)This, as I am 5 boxing paladins atm :)

[keyclone]

i do not believe the speed of the target switch matters if it is targettarget or focustarget. either way, the new target info needs to go up to the server, turn around, and go back down into each of your alts before being usable. (think 2 * your latency)

as for which is better... i dunno. i don't have any issues with pipswapping and using the same pip swap keys to set the new focus.

as for cc, set your '/target focustarget' or '/assist [target=focustarget,exists]' macro to a round-robin key and proceed to get new targets... hit key... get new target, repeat. this should allow you to sheep targets while continuing to caster-dps focustargets

[Simulacra]

I think the title says it all

I've noticed a general shift away from targettarget in the last year - why is that? Is it because all the example macros use focustarget or is there some other reason. Has everyone forgotten targettarget? Why would people use focustarget when targettarget is plainly superior?

There is so much fail here, I can't even get my head around where to start. "plainly superior" - lolwut? There are so many variables here. Try raiding with static macros and see what happens.


I use an FTL setup. I prefer this method because it leaves the focus target available for CC.

PVE - As of Wow 2.0 and 3.0 - CC is *NOT* required. Its a stop-gap for gear, but a minor one at that.
PvP - I suck at PvP so I can't really speak to it.



As the author of the Leaderless/Targetless - Focus Based Hydra ('http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=14434') system and a user of the FTL system under Innerspace and a previous user of a targettarget based system I can tell you that I like the FTL the best.

When I was using Focus Based Hydra I ran into problems with my mages and being able to CC. Focus was taken obviously so I worked my CC around target based macros and it worked but wasn't as reliable as I'd have liked. All said and done it was frustrating to try and utilize.

The FTL system is VERY reliable, however it requires a significant amount of setup that I'd never have done without ISBoxers native support of it. The way I have it setup now is flawless, works in and out of vehicles, and has absolutely no drawbacks for me... the ONLY issue I ever have is when one of the clients (or all) get a chat box open, but tahts going to bugger ANY system since chat boxes eat keystrokes.

My only comment here is why make things more complicated for the sake of making them more complicated? FTL is exactly that IMO. Maybe in PvP it would make a difference, but in PvP? Ummm, ya. I'm doing end-game PvE stuff and FTL has never even crossed my mind. And I'm also a software-less boxer, so I don't even see those extra features as benefits. Just more setup time and complication to the system.fur - good to see you hot and bothered. BUT could you please tell us why targettarget is not 'plainly superior' (which if course you must realise was a statement meant to invoke a response :) which is did lol) - I genuinely want to know your reasoning as just saying something is fail doesn't really add much mate.

[Simulacra]

ok fur - lets go through this:

1 - what target is this? when would my target not be targeting what I want it to target? I have my box team and I'm targeting something that I want to target - sorry I don't get your point and see point 2 before you go off lol.
2 - If you need to set your slaves target to another toon to hand over control then simply type /target toon - sames thing as focus.
3 - The mechanics of focused based macros are the same as the mechanics of target based macros - they both provide the same amount of flexibility.
4 - Why is targettarget superior? because it's faster when switching targets. How do I know that? Because I've observed the difference between targeting systems in the same sessions - try it.
5 - FTL? This thread isn't about FTL, it's about generating a discussion based around different targeting systems.
6 - Again this is not about FTL.

point 2 expanded a bit: if your system is totally targettarget based then it works exactly the same way as a focustarget setup only faster when the target is switching targets - this - is the point I'm trying to get across. You can do all the same stuff only your response time will be faster, you may not notice it if you have low latency but if you have high latency like me then you will definitely notice the difference, plus it allows the use of focus for heals etc - taken that it's faster and faster is better, it follows that targettarget is 'clearly superior'.

[Simulacra]

Leveling my shaman team I am using a very simple focus based system

1 macro
/focus <leader name>
/assist focus

cast normal spells, not in macro

Pros
Setup time was under 1 minute
no thinking involved
if I want to CC or DPS one thing while main is doing something else just target one mash macro main targets new mob
Cons
have to hit the one macro everytime I change targets and want to move DPS
not flexible at all

This will not be enough to PvP or run harder instances - works fine in UK at 68-70.

Now when i was playing my warlocks I tried a focus system and an assist system and they were both much slower the my FTL set up ended up making - I actually documented the process here Warlock & Priest Macro ('http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&postID=88140&highlight=priest+warlock+macro'). This was my very first team, ever so there were some thing I missed or would do differently now - so be nice. We actually had a bit of a discussion on FTL vs Focus in my thread too.
My play style was dot dot dot run, new target - dotting as many targets as I could at a time. Before I went FTL on these guys I would often have an alt refresh dot #1 or start with dot #2 on the new mob with dot#1 going into the nether. Of course RAF was announced shortly after I made the group and they were abandoned.

So I think it boils down to what you are doing, how you are doing it and how much time you want to invest in your set up - at least to just get playing.
I think FTL is mandatory for any serious PvP or anytime where you have to switch targets fast all the time.
Focus is easier to set up.wow such a nice simple setup - I'm going to try that but of course I'll make the obligatory change to :
1 macro
/target<leader name>
/assist target

lol

[Simulacra]

So your alts target you main all the time for mob targeting purposes. Right, got that. You're basing all your DPS macros on targettarget instead of focustarget and using more macro commands to make sure your alts target your main all the time - in a similar manner to using focus.

The latecy factor? That is highly subjective to the end user's personal experience - it does not make it superior one way or the other, because results vary.
You mentioned using FOCUS for heals... so now you've got macros setting target (main) and FOCUS? So you're actually doing more work and making things more complex.

If you hit TAB (by accident) - do your DPS macros automatically re-target your current "MAIN"? Or do they blast away at another target - potentially in error? (this can't happen with a FOCUS setup unless your FOCUS changes targets)

Again, I'm failing to see the benefit here. You're using two systems (targettarget and focus) to do two jobs - DPS and HEALS. What's the benefit for the added setup time and extra layer of complexity?yes1 - yes
2 - since replacing focustarget for targettarget doesn't actually cost anything and since latency itself can change even on good connections why not use it and guard against high latency? As for heals I don't use focus - I use target and don't use focus for anything, so it's not more complex, I was simply pointing out that if you wanted to use focus for something you can.
3 - No, tab is in my do not pass list.
4 - not using focus for anything so there's no double up.

here's my target macro on all my shammies bound to the tilde key - I have 5 keys to switch mains if needed

/target [target=Aztrid]

the follow macro:

/follow
here's a typical cast macro:

/cast [target=targettarget] Lightning Bolt;Lightning Bolt

here's a chain heal macro:

/stopcasting
/use 13
/use 14
/cast blood fury
/cast elemental mastery
/target [target=withthose]
/cast Chain Heal
/targetlasttarget

here's a tank heal macro:

/stopcasting
/use 13
/use 14
/cast blood fury
/cast elemental mastery
/cast [target=target] Lesser Healing Wave

I could remove the [target=target] as it's already targeted

here's a heal self macro:


/stopcasting
/cast [target=player] Lesser Healing Wave
/targetlasttarget

here's a heal the named macro - this one was for thrall in some quest in CoT I think - not sure

/stopcasting
/target [target=Thrall]
/cast lesser healing wave
/targetlasttarget

I did at one point use a focus macro for melee, but I switched that to
target - not sure if it works as I really have'nt a need to melee.

but if you do need to then:


/follow target

/assist [target=target, exists]

/startattack

[Ughmahedhurtz]

I think Fur's point here is that you're adding an extra layer of complexity by having to make damn sure your alts are targeting the correct person to auto-assist. With focus, once it's set, it's always correct no matter what, unless you lag out or get MC'd, and those caveats all still apply to your targettarget setup.

It could also be argued that you lose the use of your "target nearest enemy" keybind AND lose the ability to independently target things for CC by default (aka no having to set focus at all) before the pull and then just concentrate on DPSing when you're setup to use targettarget in your macros, where you're saying you can use focus to target the CC. Put another way, the guys that use focus for assigning a leader are front-loading their strategic targeting and then being able to just mash DPS/heal keys and have it Just Work(tm) whereas you're back-loading it, having to constantly monitor it during the fight. That's basically my perspective anyway.

I'm also with Fur that CC is vastly overrated in most situations.

The bottom line, though, is that everyone's setup will be slightly different based on hardware, software, classes/talents, macros, playstyles and your chosen fight strategy. More choices = GOOD. Since every one of these methods has proven successful at just about everything, there is no way to Do It Wrong(tm). ;)

Me, I'm ultra-lazy. I worship the God of Labor Saving Devices. I basically have my macros condensed down to 3 keys.
My /follow and /focus set key (which automagically adjusts for leader death)
My MAKE IT DIE NOW PLZ key (aka Donkey Kong key, aka I Just Got To A Good Part Of The Movie I Was Watching And I Need To Spam One Key To Finish This Pull Without Looking While I'm Watching This Scene) My Heal The Tank And The Group key (gotta love Wild Growth, eh?)

[Simulacra]

I think Fur's point here is that you're adding an extra layer of complexity by having to make damn sure your alts are targeting the correct person to auto-assist. With focus, once it's set, it's always correct no matter what, unless you lag out or get MC'd, and those caveats all still apply to your targettarget setup.

It could also be argued that you lose the use of your "target nearest enemy" keybind AND lose the ability to independently target things for CC by default (aka no having to set focus at all) before the pull and then just concentrate on DPSing when you're setup to use targettarget in your macros, where you're saying you can use focus to target the CC. Put another way, the guys that use focus for assigning a leader are front-loading their strategic targeting and then being able to just mash DPS/heal keys and have it Just Work(tm) whereas you're back-loading it, having to constantly monitor it during the fight. That's basically my perspective anyway.

I'm also with Fur that CC is vastly overrated in most situations.

The bottom line, though, is that everyone's setup will be slightly different based on hardware, software, classes/talents, macros, playstyles and your chosen fight strategy. More choices = GOOD. Since every one of these methods has proven successful at just about everything, there is no way to Do It Wrong(tm). ;)

Me, I'm ultra-lazy. I worship the God of Labor Saving Devices. I basically have my macros condensed down to 3 keys.
My /follow and /focus set key (which automagically adjusts for leader death)
My MAKE IT DIE NOW PLZ key (aka Donkey Kong key, aka I Just Got To A Good Part Of The Movie I Was Watching And I Need To Spam One Key To Finish This Pull Without Looking While I'm Watching This Scene) My Heal The Tank And The Group key (gotta love Wild Growth, eh?)true it was a pain until I started using stickytargeting - had a wipe or 2 before I figured that one out - now the target is the target without any issues

I'd love you to post your macros :)

[Ughmahedhurtz]

OK, heh. Druid macros.

The follow/focus set macro (bound to my "move forward" button so I just tap it and they all follow and refocus automagically; very intuitive):

/follow dondeltoro

/focus [target=doncavallo, exists, nodead]
/focus [target=donramirez, exists, nodead]
/focus [target=donbatista, exists, nodead]
/focus [target=dondeltoro, exists, nodead]

/follow focus

/script SetView(4);SetView(4);

The Make It Die Now Plz macro (bound to my primary attack key):

/assist focus
/targetexact charming totem
/targetexact Frost Tomb
/targetexact Snake Wrap
/targetexact Web Wrap

#showtooltip
/dismount [noflying]

/stopmacro [noharm][dead]
/cast [stance:1] growl
/castsequence [stance:1] Swipe (Bear)(), maul, lacerate, Swipe (Bear)(), Swipe (Bear)(), maul, Mangle (Bear)()
/castsequence [stance:3] Mangle (Cat)(); [stance:5][nostance] wrath

/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/use [stance:1/3] scarab of isanoth
/use [stance:1] ancient draenei war talisman
/use [stance:5] cannoneer's morale
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

/script -- Don't start autoattack in tree/chicken forms
/stopmacro [stance:5]
/startattack

Tree autoheals (also bound to primary attack key):

/target [target=focustarget]
/stopmacro [noharm][dead]
/castsequence [target=focus] reset=5 lifebloom, regrowth, rejuvenation, lifebloom, null
/castsequence [target=player] reset=5 wild growth, lifebloom, null
Pretty straightforward stuff. I have specific healing keys set to individuals in case they get targeted, and another key to spam DoTs on things, but most of the time I'm either using the DoTs keys (for 5x boomkin dailies) or the main attack (for instances). Requires a minimum of targeting/spell decisions.

[Simulacra]

thanks for that :) very interesting - I like your use of targetexact. I was thinking about your point earlier of losing the targetnearestenemy ability and realised later that's what targetlasttarget is for - I use that in my chain heal macro so could easily use it to incorporate your use of targetexact without changing the targettarget approach.

You mention earlier that a focus based approach front loads strategic targeting so you can just mash the dps key without having to conentrate on whether you have the right target and it Just Works(tm) :) and that targettarget backloads it and so it has to be constantly monitored, not so. Whether it's backloaded or frontloaded the effect is the same and the playstyle is the same, I just mash my dps key and don't think about what my team is targeting because I know they're targeting my target. Once a leader is set to target it stays targeted

[Ughmahedhurtz]

Disregard that healing macro. It's one I've been playing with lately and I guess I've just not hit the failing case until last night. It basically never resets when it gets to "null" which surprised me. Ah well, back to Ye Olde Drawring Boarde. :P You get the idea I'm going for, though.

With regards to the targeting stuff, if you're targeting your main with a separate keypress and then relying on that target being static throughout the fight, you might be surprised when you hit those cases where you lose target (like MC's, certain stuns, the fights where you fight your teammates, etc.). I suppose it's trivial to press the "retarget my main" key but it is one less thing to have to concentrate on when the Fit hits the Shan. ;)

Cheers,
Ugh

[Simulacra]

Disregard that healing macro. It's one I've been playing with lately and I guess I've just not hit the failing case until last night. It basically never resets when it gets to "null" which surprised me. Ah well, back to Ye Olde Drawring Boarde. :P You get the idea I'm going for, though.

With regards to the targeting stuff, if you're targeting your main with a separate keypress and then relying on that target being static throughout the fight, you might be surprised when you hit those cases where you lose target (like MC's, certain stuns, the fights where you fight your teammates, etc.). I suppose it's trivial to press the "retarget my main" key but it is one less thing to have to concentrate on when the Fit hits the Shan. ;)

Cheers,
Ughahhh but! if my main toon get's mc'd I just hit my Switch Brain (tm) key and everyone targets the new brain/the pip is swapped and the Fight Goes On(tm) and it's super quick.

also checked my melee macro on the target dummy in orgrimmar - it works

I'm at work so can't post the macro but this will give a general idea, I use /click with castsequences a fair bit and noticed that on the new brain that it didn't cast any spells whereas the others would (my main dying first is a rare event - it's usually the shammies >.<), the castsequence looks a bit like this:

/castsequence [target=targettarget] reset=combat flame shock, lava burst,,,,,,,,,,,
I've changed it to:

/castsequence [target=targettarget] [target=target] reset=combat flame shock, lava burst,,,,,,,,,,,
and it now fires when something is targeted by this toon and when targeting another toon's target

[Zzyzxx71]

*sigh*

I wrote the Manifesto.

The primary goal of No Focus for me was to free up focus for use elsewhere. It was due to the power of focus that I wanted to NOT use it unless absolutely necessary. I wanted to leave it available.

As far as the complexity, I've ran both focus and no focus, and once you get the basic sets of macros put together, there's really no difference. I've never noticed an increased complexity of one compared to the other.

As far as "making sure you have the right target targetted" - That was never an issue, I'm actually curious why anyone would think actually having something targetted would be an issue.

[Simulacra]

*sigh*

I wrote the Manifesto.

The primary goal of No Focus for me was to free up focus for use elsewhere. It was due to the power of focus that I wanted to NOT use it unless absolutely necessary. I wanted to leave it available.

As far as the complexity, I've ran both focus and no focus, and once you get the basic sets of macros put together, there's really no difference. I've never noticed an increased complexity of one compared to the other.

As far as "making sure you have the right target targetted" - That was never an issue, I'm actually curious why anyone would think actually having something targetted would be an issue./agree and thank you for writing it

it's the same, all we're doing is switching focus for target and focustarget for targettarget, in fact you could probably grab all your macros and perform a mass replace in notepad and carry on as normal - there is no extra level of complexity. Also I think ppl have got the wrong idea, this approach isn't saying don't use focus at all, it's saying lets leave focus for something else as the target approach does not preclude the use of focus. I think ppl got their knickers in a twist due to my flame inspiring thread title which was the purpose btw ;), nothing better than a lively discussion lol.

A point made earlier in this thread was that this approach would be no good for melee, please could someone explain this as in my limited testing I've found no issues with melee, however this was only last night on the training dummies and not on real mobs.

[davedontmind]

Just a little input on some macros:
here's a heal self macro:


/stopcasting
/cast [target=player] Lesser Healing Wave
/targetlasttarget
The /cast [target=...] line won't change your target, so the /targetlasttarget line is unnecessary, and (worst case) will have you targetting the wrong mob after the heal. I suspect that, in practice, your last target is already dead, so you've not noticed, but I believe it's wrong nonetheless.
here's a heal the named macro - this one was for thrall in some quest in CoT I think - not sure

/stopcasting
/target [target=Thrall]
/cast lesser healing wave
/targetlasttarget
Why not just "/target Thrall", instead of "/target [target=Thrall]" ?
Even simpler:

/stopcasting
/cast [target=Thrall] Lesser Healing Wave

/follow target
/assist [target=target, exists]
/startattack"/assist [exists]" should do the same, as "/assist [target=target,exists]" but with less characters.

[Simulacra]

thanks ddm - you are quite correct, the target=self does not overwrite target and I'll remove that but I think you're not getting targettarget - my target is my main so I'm hoping he won't be dead lol, my target will definitely NOT be some dead mob because the targettarget approach never targets anything except a friendly, the worst case is the target is another member of the group if I happened to have pip swapped at some point. The rest are just force of habit. Thx for the tips

[unseen]

I think you guys are also overlooking that using focus can be used for unconventional teams as well.

For example, when I ran 4 warlocks + 1 priest through instances I would have each felguard tanking a different target. Before I pulled I would simply select a target for felguard 1 to tank and have him set his focus to it. Repeat for felguard 2 and 3. I would then hit "/petattack" and they would all charge in at once, tanking their respective targets.

This setup is simply not possible using the typical focus-based grouping. I've been using the target-target ever since I started and have had no problems with it. It gives me all the same features of the focus-based approach, except I can use focus for things if I need to.

[ElectronDF]

My hunters and locks would disagree that you can't split up mobs to off tank. I select the mob on my alt (yeah, select on my main and push a key for the alt to target the mob) and then send in pets with just a /petattack command. Guess what, every pet goes to a different target, no matter who/what I have focused. They only switch if I use a /assist. Again, no matter what I have focused, you can send pets (or chars) at different mobs. Just don't /assist and they stay on that mob. And if you want you can still attack your main's target while you are targeting a different mob with clever use of [options].

[unseen]

My hunters and locks would disagree that you can't split up mobs to off tank. I select the mob on my alt (yeah, select on my main and push a key for the alt to target the mob) and then send in pets with just a /petattack command. Guess what, every pet goes to a different target, no matter who/what I have focused. They only switch if I use a /assist. Again, no matter what I have focused, you can send pets (or chars) at different mobs. Just don't /assist and they stay on that mob. And if you want you can still attack your main's target while you are targeting a different mob with clever use of [options].I've brought this up twice prior in threads like this and no one ever responded, so this is the first time I've seen someone actually answer how they do it under that system. My system still has the flexibility of selecting a new target on the fly in the case of adds or whatever (without having to go to another window/computer). Your way of doing things still works, though, and I appreciate the clarification on how you do it!

[Simulacra]

as an aside, I think I might resurrect my all hunter team - sounds like fun

[Owltoid]

The complexity of setting up an FTL system is greatly reduced if you have a /click macro that takes care of the targeting. If that's the case, then your other macros are all very small and simple (simply referencing the click button and then casting the spell).

As far as Fur's comments of what happens when the main toon dies, that is exactly the FTL's strength: flexibility. It doesn't matter which of my 5 windows I'm in, if that's where I hit the keystroke from then all others treat that toon as the current master without me having to do a thing.

I agree that the FTL system is more complicated to set-up than the focus-based system. Other than that extra complication, the FTL system is superior in every way since it has the flexibility to do everything the focus system can, but also has other functionality. In my opinion, it's analogous to HKN and Keyclone. Keyclone is reportedly more simple to set-up, but I know HKN has more functionality once you get past the initial stage. Does that mean every user should use HKN or an FTL system? Absolutely not. All it means is that if you want to have the most "powerful" system, then those are your best options. If you are most interested in initial set-up, then perhaps Keyclone and focus-based is the best option.

[Ridere]

I agree that the FTL system is more complicated to set-up than the focus-based system. Other than that extra complication, the FTL system is superior in every way since it has the flexibility to do everything the focus system can, but also has other functionality. In my opinion, it's analogous to HKN and Keyclone. Keyclone is reportedly more simple to set-up, but I know HKN has more functionality once you get past the initial stage. Does that mean every user should use HKN or an FTL system? Absolutely not. All it means is that if you want to have the most "powerful" system, then those are your best options. If you are most interested in initial set-up, then perhaps Keyclone and focus-based is the best option.

Owltoid,

I'm reaching out for some help. hehe. I know there is a big FTL guide out there, but I thought that it required Keyclone to use. I, like you, use HKN, and I'd love to know how you set up an FTL system using HKN. I know with Keyclone, they did some fancy stuff where the same key could be used on all five windows. Is that the same with the HKN version? Sorry if this is addressed elsewhere, but I'm really curious now, as I'd like to set up an FTL system using HKN.

[Ridere]

FTL sets a hierarchy or toons right? Meaning A dies, B becomes leader. B dies, C becomes leader. Correct?

What happens when A is not dead, but unavailable to "lead" alts? (falls off a cliff, gets multi-death gripped out of range, teleported away.. whatever). Or am I missing something here as to how the next leader is assigned?

Fur, I think it's not necessarily a heirarchy, but moreso a way of just allowing you to switch WoW windows, press a key, and now that window is considered the "leader" And you can do that on all five of the different windows, so that switching leaders is really a matter of bringing that leader's window to the forefront and pressing some key. Makes it real handy if one of your player's dies, or falls, sort of like what you mentioned.

The main issue is simply in setting it up. There's a neat guide for how to do it with Keyclone, but I asked Owl above how he pulls it off with HKN, since that's what I use for replication, too.

[Owltoid]

As far as Fur's comments of what happens when the main toon dies, that is exactly the FTL's strength: flexibility. It doesn't matter which of my 5 windows I'm in, if that's where I hit the keystroke from then all others treat that toon as the current master without me having to do a thing.

FTL sets a hierarchy or toons right? Meaning A dies, B becomes leader. B dies, C becomes leader. Correct?

What happens when A is not dead, but unavailable to "lead" alts? (falls off a cliff, gets multi-death gripped out of range, teleported away.. whatever). Or am I missing something here as to how the next leader is assigned?

Sorry Fur, that's not correct. The "L" in FTL is for "leaderless."

As mentioned above, the only thing an FTL system cares about is what window the command came from. If you are dual-boxing then maybe one window will always send "lctrl + command" and the other window will always send "ralt + command". The macros have those modifiers in them so that if it received "lctrl + command" it knows to assist Owltoid, whereas if it received "ralt + command" then it knows to assist Fursphere.

This can all be simplified if, instead of having the conditionals in your spell macro, you instead make a /click button that's only job is reading the conditionals and assigning the target. Sorry, I don't have the macros in front of me, otherwise I'd post some examples.

[Owltoid]

Here is a snippet of some HKN code that deals with an FTL system. It's pretty basic, really. All you do is launch your 5 instances of WoW (giving them unique names like WoW1, WoW2, etc) and then ask HKN which window the command was sent for. HKN then sends whatever keystrokes you want it to (in this case it reads that it came from WoW2 and therefore appends "RCtrl Ralt" to the keystoke so all clients know to assist my WoW2 toon).


//General Sharing
<Hotkey ScrollLockOn a, c, d, f, g, r, t>
<Passthrough>
<If ActiveWinIs WoW1>
<SendLabel WoW2, WoW3, WoW4, WoW5>
<Key RCtrl %Trigger%>
<Else If ActiveWinIs WoW2>
<SendLabel WoW1, WoW3, WoW4, WoW5>
<Key RCtrl RAlt %Trigger%>
<Else If ActiveWinIs WoW3>
<SendLabel WoW1, WoW2, WoW4, WoW5>
<Key RCtrl RAlt RShift %Trigger%>
<Else If ActiveWinIs WoW4>
<SendLabel WoW1, WoW2, WoW3, WoW5>
<Key RAlt %Trigger%>
<Else If ActiveWinIs WoW5>
<SendLabel WoW1, WoW2, WoW3, WoW4>
<Key RAlt RShift %Trigger%>
<Endif>

<Hotkey ScrollLockOn LShift a, c, d, m, r>
<Passthrough>
<If ActiveWinIs WoW1>
<SendLabel WoW2, WoW3, WoW4, WoW5>
<Key RCtrl %Trigger%>
<Else If ActiveWinIs WoW2>
<SendLabel WoW1, WoW3, WoW4, WoW5>
<Key RCtrl RAlt %Trigger%>
<Else If ActiveWinIs WoW3>
<SendLabel WoW1, WoW2, WoW4, WoW5>
<Key RCtrl RAlt RShift %Trigger%>
<Else If ActiveWinIs WoW4>
<SendLabel WoW1, WoW2, WoW3, WoW5>
<Key RAlt %Trigger%>
<Else If ActiveWinIs WoW5>
<SendLabel WoW1, WoW2, WoW3, WoW4>
<Key RAlt RShift %Trigger%>
<Endif>


//Hotkeys for the macros that are not target specific
<HotKey ScrollLockOn b, 1, 2>
<SendLabel WoW1, WoW2, WoW3, WoW4, WoW5>
<Key %Trigger%>

<Hotkey ScrollLockOn Shift b, i, x, 2>
<SendLabel WoW1, WoW2, WoW3, WoW4, WoW5>
<Key %Trigger%>

<Hotkey ScrollLockOn Ctrl m, p, r, z>
<SendLabel WoW1, WoW2, WoW3, WoW4, WoW5>
<Key %Trigger%>

<Hotkey ScrollLockOn Alt m>
<SendLabel WoW1, WoW2, WoW3>
<Key %Trigger%>


//Follow when lead is autorunning
<MovementHotkey ScrollLockOn MButton>
<Passthrough>
<If ActiveWinIs WoW1>
<SendLabel WoW2, WoW3, WoW4, WoW5>
<Key RCtrl LShift Z>
<Else If ActiveWinIs WoW2>
<SendLabel WoW1, WoW3, WoW4, WoW5>
<Key RCtrl RAlt LShift Z>
<Else If ActiveWinIs WoW3>
<SendLabel WoW1, WoW2, WoW4, WoW5>
<Key RCtrl RAlt RShift LShift Z>
<Else If ActiveWinIs WoW4>
<SendLabel WoW1, WoW2, WoW3, WoW5>
<Key RAlt LShift Z>
<Else If ActiveWinIs WoW5>
<SendLabel WoW1, WoW2, WoW3, WoW4>
<Key RAlt RShift LShift Z>
<Endif>

[elsegundo]

i know im late to the argument....



i started off using targettarget. but have switched to focustarget. i find focustarget superior. no supporting evidence? ya, none. just my opinion.

alright folks, work with all the methods here and find what fits your style. kk.. going back to workplace obscurity.

[Dorffo]

I think the important difference is that the in-game macros / addons that were disabled were changing state or reacting to changes in game and leveraging that information to make "smart" choices with a single button press by performing various status checks.

but you're still using logical arguments to manipulate ingame key bindings. I am not sure I''d agree with that statement here - Yes there is a logic block. However, it does not manipulate in-game keybinds at all. Once defined, a keypress will always generate the same key combo in-game without changing or modifying its behavior.

It's simply a mechanism for re-mapping a keystroke. Keyclone supports keymapping which is functionally equivalent as far as I can tell (and I would assume uses a somewhat approach in the code).

[Redbeard]

Cant we do this in game (check for character death)? its not explicitly using if / then syntax but....

/stopcasting [target=Lefthoof, nodead]
/cast [target=Lefthoof] Revive;

[Lax]

//General Sharing
<Hotkey ScrollLockOn a, c, d, f, g, r, t>
<Passthrough>
<If ActiveWinIs WoW1>
<SendLabel WoW2, WoW3, WoW4, WoW5>
<Key RCtrl %Trigger%>
<Else If ActiveWinIs WoW2>
<SendLabel WoW1, WoW3, WoW4, WoW5>
<Key RCtrl RAlt %Trigger%>
<Else If ActiveWinIs WoW3>
<SendLabel WoW1, WoW2, WoW4, WoW5>
<Key RCtrl RAlt RShift %Trigger%>
<Else If ActiveWinIs WoW4>
<SendLabel WoW1, WoW2, WoW3, WoW5>
<Key RAlt %Trigger%>
<Else If ActiveWinIs WoW5>
<SendLabel WoW1, WoW2, WoW3, WoW4>
<Key RAlt RShift %Trigger%>
<Endif>


IF THEN statements were removed from the in game macro system. Now you're putting them back in with an external program. (this would be like IF toon = alive, focus toonA) or something. This is scary close to automation in my opinion.

Sure it requires you to pick your new leader - but you're still using logical arguments to manipulate ingame key bindings.

This actually sorta reminds me of Flexbar - the mod that would change action bars based on ingame events so you'd hit the correct key - which was disabled by Blizzard.I think you're late to the party here, Fursphere. This is how FTL is always implemented. All it's doing is sending a different set of modifier keys depending on the window it's being broadcast from. The in-game macro has conditionals using the "mod" conditional to have a different assist target (etc) depending on the modifier keys held down -- each set corresponds to a different character. This way, just like using Focus with the active window being the Focus Target, it doesn't matter which toon you are playing, your followers will always follow,assist, etc the one you are playing.

http://www.dual-boxing.com/wiki/index.php/Focusless_Targetless_Leaderless_Setup

[CommanderChaos]

Using if/then statements to determine the state of the program in the OS (i.e., window in foreground or background) is a far cry from checking the state of a toon within the program. One uses data from the operating system, the other uses data from the game. Making decisions based on data in game is where the TOS line is drawn. This doesn't seem to be even close to a gray area to me.



The decision to change focus on a toon or who to follow or assist can only be made by the user pressing the button to make it so. What Fur seems to be saying here is that if someone is using a hardware KVM switch to box with, it would be Breaking TOS to have that KVM button also pass a key to the program. This is what we're talking about here. No data from WoW is pressing that button for you, and software broadcasting those keys in the same way is no different.