So who is this "PwnBoxer" idiot?

[Nisch]

I just received an email from the moron that came up with "PWNBOXER"

While I don't like Keyclone's recent problems, I wouldn't pay anyone for program with that stupid of a name.

Anyone else getting their spam?

I hate idiots that ride on the coat tails of others AND tries to make money off it AND has such a stupid name. :rolleyes:

[Gurblash]

its Evilseed/Tim/Ex-CEO of Wowhead/Mousecloner.

Cockroaches just don't die sadly :(

[Svpernova09]

Just more of his hack marketing tactics. Report his mail as spam to your ISP/Mail provider.

[Nisch]

He's sending it through the DB.com forums.

I had a feeling it was him. :rolleyes:

[Rms]

Don't get that!

I can give you the new version PWNBOXER69!

OMGOZOR only 3 easy payments of $9.95.

Lol

[blast3r]

I got one from the idiot dooshbag as well.

[Svpernova09]

He's sending it through the DB.com forums.

I had a feeling it was him. :rolleyes:Is this a user sending you the mail? or is it a PM? Or is it a real email?

[Nisch]

It came from dbadmin@dual-boxing.com

saying:

"appsup@pwnboxer.com" has sent the following message from the Dual-Boxing.com Community Forum.



blah blah I have a stupid program blah blah


The message does not reside in my PM box.

[Moorea]

How did he get your email ? I didn't get tim's latest scam... his website and how he tries to milk people with mousecl*ner and now this is horrible new one are terrible (poor people who already paid for the mouse one... got scammed) - while I have my own issues with 'phone home' boxing software; I would never give a dime to that scammer/liar of tim and his dirty techniques(*)


*: assuming someone exposes that the latest "software" is coming from the same scammer - as one of his favorite dirty trick is to create yet another "persona" each time he tries a new scam/lie - otherwise I guess I may fall for it accidentally if not careful


ps: do you mind posting the content of the email; I'm curious what he said in there and to see it debunked

[Svpernova09]

How did he get your email ? I didn't get tim's latest scam... his website and how he tries to milk people with mousecl*ner and now this is horrible new one are terrible (poor people who already paid for the mouse one... got scammed) - while I have my own issues with 'phone home' boxing software; I would never give a dime to that scammer/liar of tim and his dirty techniques(*)


*: assuming someone exposes that the latest "software" is coming from the same scammer - as one of his favorite dirty trick is to create yet another "persona" each time he tries a new scam/lie - otherwise I guess I may fall for it accidentally if not careful

Yes, the person behind Pwnboxer IS EvilSeed / Tim / Mousecloner. If you go through the various Digg articles he admits it. and Gurb has a SS of him admitting it on the Pwnboxer forums (and that post was deleted not long after)

[Coltimar]

I read all the Mousecloner stuff and I still don't see why everyone is so down on the guy. He's some dude with a product he is trying to sell. People say he's a jerk, a snake, whatever but who cares. Is he scamming people or does he provide the product he is selling? If we get all wrapped up in whether CEOs and developers are nice or play fair we would all be naked, starving and bored to death. Aside from ripping off the useful features of Keyclone and some other software and having a stupid name, the product (if it works) looks pretty decent.

[Svpernova09]

I read all the Mousecloner stuff and I still don't see why everyone is so down on the guy. He's some dude with a product he is trying to sell. People say he's a jerk, a snake, whatever but who cares. Is he scamming people or does he provide the product he is selling? If we get all wrapped up in whether CEOs and developers are nice or play fair we would all be naked, starving and bored to death. Aside from ripping off the useful features of Keyclone and some other software and having a stupid name, the product (if it works) looks pretty decent.I have no problem with someone making a product for a market and trying to make money.

I DO have a problem with someone who

Has repeatedly threatened the multiboxing community Repeatedly harassed and insulted Ellay, and Keyclone Repeatedly trying to weasel his way into the community for his own personal gain Doesn't care about the community and only wants to make a quick buck Hides behind different personas because he's burned so many bridges here. Put's his own concerns before the community's. Spams OUR members with his blatant advertisements
This is NOT the kind of person we want here. This is why discussing his products is not welcomed here.

[Sam DeathWalker]

This appears, at first glance at his website (which also apprears professional), a resonable professional product if its as it claims.

Why is there any assumption that this is any kind of scam. Has anyone used the product and found it does not perform as advertized. It cost as much time to develope his web site as it does to make such a program ...

If it does what it says its just another keyclone, multiplicity, octopus, IS etc. product.

Why in the world is there any reason that the "community" would exclude discussion of products designed for multiboxing.

I thought this community was about "Is Pwnboxer better then Keyclone or is Keyclone better then Pwnboxer, what features does Keyclone have that Pwnboxer does not, does one implement a spicific function better then the other".

Instead its "We don't like this guy based on past behavior, thus we will not discuss this product".

Are we/you a "community" of multiboxers interested in multiboxing and all products dealing with such or are we/you an "elitist community of products made by people we like". And the reason I say we/you is because although you might be prejudejed against others based upon their PAST behavior, I'm not.

Also, unlike his prior products, there does not seem any possible way this product can violate terms of service, I have not used it or investigated it nor do I recomend or approve of it but at first glance that is the appreance.

I might also recall that Lax of IS was not well recieved at first but is now a solid contributing member of dual-boxing.com.

[heffner]

Well, you can buy a product solely based on the product information if you want. I prefer to buy products from companies I respect. I am often willing to pay more as well. So, the discussion regarding the person behind the company and the company itself is totally valid IMO. Regardless if it's someone bashing or praising them, I am fairly confident that I can make decisions for myself.

I don't really know much about Tim and his history, nor do I really care since I already have a product that works well for me, just making a general statement.

Public forums aren't required to be democratic. I don't know why people often make this assumption.

[Sajuuk]

Instead its "We don't like this guy based on past behavior, thus we will not discuss this product".

I might also recall that Lax of IS was not well recieved at first but is now a solid contributing member of dual-boxing.com.Lax doesn't slander Rob/Keyclone. They have their disagreements, but neither one is throwing slander around. Mr. Seed has been deceptive from the beginning, creating multiple user profiles to promote his own products, slandering keyclone (On digg, among (almost certainly) other places.). There's also this.
Has repeatedly threatened the multiboxing community Repeatedly harassed and insulted Ellay, and Keyclone Repeatedly trying to weasel his way into the community for his own personal gain Doesn't care about the community and only wants to make a quick buck Hides behind different personas because he's burned so many bridges here. Put's his own concerns before the community's. Spams OUR members with his blatant advertisementsHe's not honorable, to be polite. Would YOU do business with such a person?

[Gurblash]

He's not honorable, to be polite. Would YOU do business with such a person?


Thats a stupid question considering who your asking... lmao ;)

[Sam DeathWalker]

Apparently the people who bought wowhead from him didnt have a problem doing business with him ...

All those allegations are basically the same, he is here to make a buck and dosn't care about the community. Well I go to wowhead every day I don't care if the owners care about me or not really ...

Rob and Ellay are the most mature and resonable of the people around here, I am sure they can deal with "insults", like I have in the past. Just because they are leaders in the community dosnt mean that they favor exclusion of potential contributers.

Lets see you claim he is guilty of "slander" yet in this thread I see words like "idiot" "moron" "weasel" "scam" "slander" etc. Very mature and business like of you posters, attacking someone who can't defend himself.

I think that had the community been a bit more open to him origianlly and not banned him then all this would not have occured.

Im just saying if dual-boxing is claiming to represent the entire multiboxer community then it can't ban ligit products or people who are just "trying to make a buck". If dual-boxing is claiming to represent most of the community except for those it considers "weasels" well then whatever.

Also we all do a diservice to noobs if we don't review all products, what if in fact it is the best software solution (Im not saying it is I use keyclone myself) we are going to recomend to noobs a lesser product because we don't like the guy?

Well no real business bans people because "he dosn't care about the community and just wants to make a buck". Lots of owners of businesses cater to people they don't like for some reason or other, mainly becasue its a violation of the law not to. If the goal is to show Blizzard that dual-boxing.com is about maturity and business Im sorry to say that this shows the exact opposite.

[glo]

I might also recall that Lax of IS was not well recieved at first but is now a solid contributing member of dual-boxing.com.Pretty sure Lax got the welcome he received only because he made the claim that his product was completely safe to use on wow. This is a claim nobody can really make as Blizzard bans based on their own criteria which can and has changed in the past, further he choose to forget that his software has been caught up in a ban wave in the past.

This Tim guy on the other hand came with a product that blizzard determined violates their terms of service. That should have been the end of it but he chose to make a new product and then come back promoting it in a sleazy way(using the dual-boxing forum to spam private emails) proving that his ban was justified.

[keyclone]

actually, most of the issues with tim relate to his strong arm attempts to 'take over' the dual-boxing community about a year ago. this was long before any products came along. all of this was disclosed to the community by the mods when we banned him. we don't take banning lightly... but will do it if need be.


a community has a memory.

if you piss on my shoes on monday, don't expect to be invited to dinner on wednesday.

[blast3r]

I have no plans to EVER use any product this guy pushes. He can release the best Mboxing product in the world and I won't buy it. Sam, if you want to use his product go right ahead abut he is not an honest person and his methods are totally unethical.

[moog]

actually, most of the issues with tim relate to his strong arm attempts to 'take over' the dual-boxing community about a year ago. this was long before any products came along. all of this was disclosed to the community by the mods when we banned him. we don't take banning lightly... but will do it if need be.
Must have been before I joined, as I don't remember it... got a link to it?

[Ellay]

Anyone who received a PM / e-mail from him via the forums please PM it to me.

[keyclone]

actually, forwarding the email would be best as it would contain the headers

[Kicksome]

Lol, he made that mouse broadcasting software and said he's going to build in keystroke stuff. Now he's just making a different product and charging again for it.

And I think it's pretty crappy he's using db.com to spam all the users here.

[Kicksome]

As far as whoever bought Wowhead from him, and the other owners (And it wasn't just him)... We have no idea of the situation or what he actually did day to day over there, if anything. It certainly should strike anyone as odd that he has to spam DB.com members to get people to look at his product though. He supposidly had a hand in making a top 500 web site, and he's resorting to spamming DB.com members by hand??? Doesn't add up IMO. We have no idea how many people invested in Wowhead, for all we know they might have been in debt $5 million and been bought for $1 mil so they investors could recoup some of their losses. All I know is $1 mil is was a very low price to pay for a site as popular as that one was at the time. That's an indication of a fire-sale IMO - an indication that something was very wrong with their business and/or business management and/or business model. To put it in perspective, Allakhazam.com (a very similar site with less traffic ) was bought for between 7 and 10 million one year earlier by the same people who bought Wowhead. but for some reason they paid 10x less for Wowhead, which was more popular and had more traffic.

The biggest problem I have with the guy, is when he came out with his first product, he said he had Blizzard approval. And he knew people at Blizzard who gave him that approval. That he had "ins" with Blizzard thanks to him "owning" Wowhead so his product had the offical Blizzard blessing. But we later found out, the features he promoted and put in his product were NOT approved by Blizzard, and Blizzard said you shouldn't use a product like because it's CLEARY agaisn't the TOS. So he basicaly, flat-out tried to BS all of us. And he was flat-out busted for it, direct from Blizzard.

So I'm not a fan of the guy personally.




Apparently the people who bought wowhead from him didnt have a problem doing business with him ...

All those allegations are basically the same, he is here to make a buck and dosn't care about the community. Well I go to wowhead every day I don't care if the owners care about me or not really ...

Rob and Ellay are the most mature and resonable of the people around here, I am sure they can deal with "insults", like I have in the past. Just because they are leaders in the community dosnt mean that they favor exclusion of potential contributers.

Lets see you claim he is guilty of "slander" yet in this thread I see words like "idiot" "moron" "weasel" "scam" "slander" etc. Very mature and business like of you posters, attacking someone who can't defend himself.

I think that had the community been a bit more open to him origianlly and not banned him then all this would not have occured.

Im just saying if dual-boxing is claiming to represent the entire multiboxer community then it can't ban ligit products or people who are just "trying to make a buck". If dual-boxing is claiming to represent most of the community except for those it considers "weasels" well then whatever.

Also we all do a diservice to noobs if we don't review all products, what if in fact it is the best software solution (Im not saying it is I use keyclone myself) we are going to recomend to noobs a lesser product because we don't like the guy?

Well no real business bans people because "he dosn't care about the community and just wants to make a buck". Lots of owners of businesses cater to people they don't like for some reason or other, mainly becasue its a violation of the law not to. If the goal is to show Blizzard that dual-boxing.com is about maturity and business Im sorry to say that this shows the exact opposite.

[Sam DeathWalker]

There was nothing "CLEARLY against the ToS" about mousecloner originally.

Only through dilligence and investigation and questioning and comparison by members of the community was the matter finally clarified by blizzard, and some members stated at the time the issue was not clear or that mousecloner would NOT violate the ToS, although many said it did.

Mousecloner is very likely against the rules ('http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&postID=172547&highlight=evilseed#post172547')

And we should aplly the same dilligence and investigation of any new product, regardless where it comes from.

Here is what the above poster kicksome said at the time:


I used the predetermined x,y cordinates mouseclicks in hotkeynet for a while (against the author's advice), it worked great. But I felt it looked REALLY suspicious so I stopped using it, and switched to the normal keybinding mouse clicks. Using the predetermined X,Y system, It puts down the AOE in the EXACT same pattern every time, and I was worried that it be a red flag to see every AOE I casted was clicked in exactly screen position 600x600. I honestly don't know if this is a big enough deal to warrant any blizzard attention though. I think it'll come down to a very specific blue post, or someone getting banned before we know if it's acceptable.

And now he claims that mousecloner was "CLEARLY against the ToS" ...


Blizzard said you shouldn't use a product like because it's CLEARY agaisn't the TOS. So he basicaly, flat-out tried to BS all of us. And he was flat-out busted for it, direct from Blizzard


And until Blizzard clarified it, due to dilligance of the community, it could have gone either way.

Also it seems he has "learned his lesson", on its face his new product is just a Keyclone copy and thus dosnt violate the ToS.

[Kicksome]

Look, the guy said his program was approved by Blizzard. It wasn't. He lied. False advertising? Sure as hell seems like it. He even said "Blizzard approved on his website".

When someone posted on about this on the official forums, we had this response:

Malkorix
Blizzard Poster
"I would strongly advise shying away from this program, if it is causing mouse moves (even simulated mouse moves) to occur in response to user inputs.
Mouse moves are the purview of the user, not a program. "

I personally don't like to do business with people who try to BS me.

And when a blizzard poster says don't use this program. I assume that alone means it's clearly against the TOS.
And now he claims that mousecloner was "CLEARLY against the ToS" ...



http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/../forum/icon/quoteS.png Quoted

Blizzard said you shouldn't use a product like because it's CLEARY agaisn't the TOS. So he basicaly, flat-out tried to BS all of us. And he was flat-out busted for it, direct from Blizzard

[Sam DeathWalker]

Ya after Blizzard clarified the issue it is NOW clearly against the ToS. It wasn't at the time though.

Anyway even assuming his ban is resonable, I still think we should discuss his product and see how it stacks up against Keyclone, hopefully Keyclone blows it away but how will we know? Also user input on both programs will help both authors improve their products to the benifit of all.

The G15 can be used to violate the ToS, as can most any programable input device with delays. Yet I don't see anyone calling for a ban on discussing them.

[Moorea]

I still think we should discuss his product and see how it stacks up against Keyclone, hopefully Keyclone blows it away but how will we know? Also user input on both programs will help both authors improve their products to the benifit of all.


Why don't you go an buy it and report back... oh wait... because you're pretty unreliable yourself that wouldn't help much...

[Svpernova09]

http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/9/16/128660498159844805.jpg
I agree 100% with Fur. We've all been down this road, we're not going down it again. I refuse to allow flamebait trolls to spout giant walls of text that just rehashes the same old arguements. Thread closed. If you DID receive a spam email about Pwnboxer, please forward the header to Ellay, or Myself, and we will do the best we can so that dual-boxing.com resources are not spreading spam.

Thanks.