Addons free from now on, per Blizzard: KeyClone okay?

[Gadzooks]

http://www.wowinsider.com/2009/03/20/new-add-on-policy-makes-selling-add-ons-against-the-rules/2#comments

Developers of addons like Carbonite and QuestHelper can no longer charge for their work. I'm split on this one, myself.

But, is KeyClone going to get lumped in with addons, even though it's not an addon? I sure hope not!

[Iceorbz]

http://www.wowinsider.com/2009/03/20/new-add-on-policy-makes-selling-add-ons-against-the-rules/2#comments

Developers of addons like Carbonite and QuestHelper can no longer charge for their work. I'm split on this one, myself.

But, is KeyClone going to get lumped in with addons, even though it's not an addon? I sure hope not!keyclone isnt a wow addon, of course i dont see how they can really stop people for asking for donations for their work.

[Clovis]

I wouldn't think Keyclone would be considered this because it is not specifically a WOW add-on but rather happens to work with WOW (and other games, amirite?).

The article specifies mods that use the interface.

-Clov

[Frojax]

Oh dear, Blizzard are pulling a nasty stunt here. I for one am a user of Carbonite and I would hate to see it go. But without the cash incentive, will the people that spend God know how long making and maintaining these thing, actually want to continue with them? I know I wouldn't, I'd be tempted to move to greener pastures, WAR for instance.

/me sobs at the thought of loosing Carbonite and leaps into bed

[Sam DeathWalker]

Well I like carbonite and have been using it a lot, hope they don't fold as I was happy to pay.

They do allow donations on the web site, and they will allow advertizing on the download web site also, hopefully that will generate the funds needed to keep carbonite etc. up and rolling.

Wowhead dosn't charge and sure that takes a ton of effort to put out there.

Maybe add on developers can get together and like say Ace have a big site with lots of adds and pay out percentages to individuals dependant on download amounts etc.

Of course this could be a perview to banning all third party software on a basis that its not free..... today the addons then Keyclone then Whatever.

Wrong of Blizzard I say.

Does Home Depot say you can't use their tools to make a profit? LoL.

[Freddie]

This hurts players, add-on developers, and Blizzard itself. I can't imagine why Blizzard thinks this is a good idea.

[Svpernova09]

This hurts players, add-on developers, and Blizzard itself. I can't imagine why Blizzard thinks this is a good idea.I think its a combination of legal liability of addon content (as they stated the addons must not contain questionable material, they don't want to be sued for the content of an addon) and the fact they just don't want someone making real world money off their product such as carbonite / soliciting donations.

[Caspian]

This hurts players, add-on developers, and Blizzard itself. I can't imagine why Blizzard thinks this is a good idea.How many Add-Ons actually require payment? I know of only one, Carbonite. They also pre-compile their code or "obfuscate it" which is why I wouldn't use it in the first place. Other then outright charging for an add-on the only other thing they did, monetarily was to ban you from asking for donations in game. You can still ask for them everywhere else. The forcing open of the code only protects the users.

How is this bad for the end gamer?

Keyclone is not a WoW addon.

[Freddie]

How is this bad for the end gamer?
It's bad because of rule number one which forbids publishers of add-ons from charging for their work. This prohibition hurts players and Blizzard because it's a disincentive to producing add-ons.

A rule that encourages more developers to invest more time in producing more add-ons is good for players and everyone else. This rule does the opposite.

Also, on ethical grounds, it's wrong to stop people from charging for their work. People have a right to get paid for their work. This right is a good thing for society and for the individuals involved in the transaction. It encourages honesty and delayed gratification and the keeping of commitments. When a rule is made that does something unethical, like this one does, it normalizes the wrong. It desensitizes people to it. This is bad for everyone who is affected by the rule including, in this case, players.

[Caspian]

How is this bad for the end gamer?
It's bad because of rule number one which forbids publishers of add-ons from charging for their work. This prohibition hurts players and Blizzard because it's a disincentive to producing add-ons.

A rule that encourages more developers to invest more time in producing more add-ons is good for players and everyone else. This rule does the opposite.

Also, on ethical grounds, it's wrong to stop people from charging for their work. People have a right to get paid for their work. This right is a good thing for society and for the individuals involved in the transaction. It encourages honesty and delayed gratification and the keeping of commitments. When a rule is made that does something unethical, like this one does, it normalizes the wrong. It desensitizes people to it. This is bad for everyone who is affected by the rule including, in this case, players.That rule number 1 affects exactly 1 add on (to my knowledge). As a matter of fact so does rule number 2, the same one. It looks like a targeted strike to stop a trend. This is America, the corporation is king, Nobody charged for addons before, yet they were continuously developed. They are not stopping people from making money from their work, only demanding money for it or asking for it in game. Preventing ads, making people show their code are VERY good things, making sure addons comply with the ELUA and TOS (which kills the Jamba auto follow strobe argument - if it is bad - Blizz will stop it or issue a cease and desist). Which pushes the liability for "bad addons" away from the end user and onto Blizzard and the Developer.

I see your points Freddie, software development put food on my table as a child and feeds my children today. I just don't think that WoW addons fall under the normal rules. Blizzard can, and should, decide who makes money from their game and specifically IN their game. If there are fewer addons because of it, which I doubt, then so be it. But, the intention of addons was for them to be community developed. If development stops on something because of it someone who likes it will pick up the torch. It happens just about every time someone quits wow and the addon they were working on.

I still think this was aimed at Carbonite and to nip their trend in the bud.

[Sam DeathWalker]

Maybe Microsoft / Intel should prohibit Blizzard from makeing a profit off of the use of their products.

Although "WoW" is a popular addon to Windows, seems that Microsoft has full control of what runs on THEIR software.

[Freddie]

Maybe Microsoft / Intel should prohibit Blizzard from makeing a profit off of the use of their products.

Although "WoW" is a popular addon to Windows, seems that Microsoft has full control of what runs on THEIR software.
That's a great way to make the point.

We all know that Microsoft would never do this because Microsoft makes money as a result of other companies selling programs that run on Microsoft software.

If it would hurt Microsoft to stop people from selling programs that run on Windows, how can it help Blizzard to stop people from selling programs that run on WoW?

[Velassra]

Maybe Microsoft / Intel should prohibit Blizzard from makeing a profit off of the use of their products.

Although "WoW" is a popular addon to Windows, seems that Microsoft has full control of what runs on THEIR software.
That's a great way to make the point.

We all know that Microsoft would never do this because Microsoft makes money as a result of other companies selling programs that run on Microsoft software.

If it would hurt Microsoft to stop people from selling programs that run on Windows, how can it help Blizzard to stop people from selling programs that run on WoW?

I don't make software but I don't see that as a great comparison. Windows is an operating system designed to run a computer. It's a gven that the computer needs it (or another) to run, thus other programs need to use it. WoW is a game, not an operating system. Your computer runs w/o it. The game runs w/o add-ons. It's Blizzard's game to determine what kinds of activities they want ran through their game.

I guess I can see both sides of the issue, idk if I really have an opinion about it either. I just thought it was a bad comparison.

[Mooni]

Blizzard should mind their own damn business. Yes I could see how someone could construe this as a conflict of interest(making money off of WoW) but if they are going to allow addons in the first place (which started with Diablo; no other big MMOs allowed addons) why the sudden rules when everything's been running fine for all these years? If Carbonite charges people who are already paying Blizzard customers, I don't get why Blizz cares.

[Freddie]

I don't make software but I don't see that as a great comparison. Windows is an operating system designed to run a computer. It's a gven that the computer needs it (or another) to run, thus other programs need to use it. WoW is a game, not an operating system...
WoW is not only a game, it's also what programmers call an interpreter. An interpreter is a program that is designed to execute other programs. WoW has an API and a whole programming language just like a Basic interpreter or any other interpreter. Here's some info about the WoW API:

http://www.wowwiki.com/World_of_Warcraft_API

Just as WoW runs on Windows, add-ons run on WoW.

Other examples are: a JavaScript program runs on a browser; a Java program runs on the Java virtual machine; a HotkeyNet script runs on HotkeyNet; .NET program runs on the .NET runtime; etc.

[Zaelar]

if they are going to allow addons in the first place (which started with Diablo; no other big MMOs allowed addons)

There are no addons for Diablo, and it isn't an mmo.

[Starbuck_Jones]

Its all about the Benjamins. They need/want it all open source, open community for a few reasons. The obvious one is for all the "Oh's and No's" does this contain a keyloger worm or some other malicious code. But in my opinion they don't want anything to be copyright or trademarked in some way if someone comes up with a really good feature they want to implement into the stock UI. That and they are extreemly nazi about their intelectual property and brand immage.

[David]

I would not care to much, there will be new mods or someone will continue older mods.

[Mooni]

There are no addons for Diablo, and it isn't an mmo. Let me try to articulate that now that I've had my nap.
Diablo I, as far as online play on Battle.net, was the first place I saw Blizzard allowing player-made addons. That's why I brought it up; I was surprised that addons were allowed in World of Warcraft right after release (maybe before release too, but I wasn't around then) because addons were considered EVIL to EverQuest and other MMOs.

[moog]

Let me try to articulate that now that I've had my nap.
Diablo I, as far as online play on Battle.net, was the first place I saw Blizzard allowing player-made addons.
There were no addons for Diablo 1/2, not in the same sense of the term in WoW.

There were dodgy "tools" used to manipulate the game, for example I knew of one tool that let you "clone" a target player and save it, so you could take a copy of their kit.

[Kaynin]

Might be just a means to cover themselves. Doesn't neccesarily mean they can or will do anything against it. (As long as the add-on isn't malicious anyhow.)

[BW~Merlin]

Will be interesting to see where Blizzard stops with this one. First it was the removal of account sellers, then it was the removal gold sellers (I don't think you will find anyone who says that it was a bad thing), now its the removal of addon sellers (imo another great thing, but I think the restrictions on in game donations links needs to be softened a little to allow small links in the addon info panel and or a couple of chat lines on login). Will it continue onto third party applications that can be used with wow (like hotkeynet and others) in a move to stop glider (only because they have tried to stop it in court) so there is no money to be made from wow outside of what Blizzard itself sells?

[Hor]

Honestly, I'm not too surprised with this move. On the one hand I can understand the need to protect their brand/image, however I feel they're being a bit heavy handed of late. But again, totally not surprised. It reminds me of when they tried to strong arm Joana's Guide and Brian Knopp's Guide. They sued then settled out of court.

[Tanntyn]

There are no addons for Diablo, and it isn't an mmo. Let me try to articulate that now that I've had my nap.
Diablo I, as far as online play on Battle.net, was the first place I saw Blizzard allowing player-made addons. That's why I brought it up; I was surprised that addons were allowed in World of Warcraft right after release (maybe before release too, but I wasn't around then) because addons were considered EVIL to EverQuest and other MMOs.
I was playing DAoC LONG before WoW and there were addons there. At first they were rogue but Mythic eventually embraced them and made it easier to produce them. Even added some to the stock UI I think.

[zanthor]

I wouldn't be surprised if this gets drug into court - this is by far and away anti-competitive behavior and while IANAL I believe this would be thrown out quickly and easily.

I have personally paid for two addon's in my career as a wow player, RDX and Carbonite - both are far and away best at what they do. Both were professionally developed and maintained and always worked on patch day. If a professional version of Macaroon existed I'd happily pay for that as well, as it would ensure that the author was properly compensated and encouraged to make current versions.

This will hurt the players in the end - and it will hurt blizzard in the end. The only people it won't actually hurt are the addon authors who charge, as they'll move on to new projects elsewhere.

[uogsammich]

I guess when you have 10 million players + you really don't care who you lose. MMORP Monopoly ignition in 3..2....1...

[Frojax]

I guess when you have 10 million players + you really don't care who you lose. MMORP Monopoly ignition in 3..2....1... You know, that comment there sums it up, perfectly.

I had considered writing an email to Blizzard, complaining about the way they have handled this and that in the end, it's only hurting the players. I would have even canceled my accounts for a month to show how pissed I am about this. But then I thought .. what the hell difference would it make, if I dropped my five accounts to them? I doubt they would even bother to reply.

While I do back Blizzard's right to control how their system is used for addons etc, why shouldn't people that are spending hours upon hours, coding these addons and doing a great job of it, make a little cash on the side as a thankyou.

If Blizzard want to continue this, then they need to get off their arses and reinvent their interface, removing the need for players to write addons to add features the game should really have in the first place.

[keyclone]

first, no... keyclone would not fall under this as it is not a wow add-on (as many people have stated)

secondly, i am quite surprised Blizzard is going this route.

personally, i think you can have it both ways and Blizzard could actually make some $$ doing it... by following the same add-on model the iPhone uses.

add-on devs are allowed to develop add-ons, but they cannot be installed onto the phone (by users) without going through the app store. an app will only appear on the app store after the devs have submitted it to Apple for approval. Blizzard could do the same by requiring all add-ons be submitted to them in open source, then they could check/test and release an obfuscated component. the monies brought in from the add-ons would easily pay for the extra staff required to test them.

that would be a win-win. it would give the users assurance that the add-on is ok, the devs would have an easy avenue for charging users, and Blizzard would control the add-on channel.

[Sajuuk]

Don't forget that with today's economy, it'd open up a couple jobs as well! :p

[Portal]

They don't want people paying for add-ons for the same reason they don't want people buying and selling in-game currency for real money; it provides a potential advantage to players who are willing to pay for it over those who are not. They want to keep the playing field as level as possible. I can understand that it might limit what people are willing to create for the game and that's potentially bad for players, but I think the alternative carries a greater risk. What would it do to the game if we discovered tomorrow that every raid add-on cost a 10/month subscription? What if it were per-account? How many add-ons do you have installed across how many characters? Where does it stop and how many players would be left?

[Khatovar]

I was surprised that addons were allowed in World of Warcraft right after release (maybe before release too, but I wasn't around then) because addons were considered EVIL to EverQuest and other MMOs.

Decal + BanditSight, Nerfus Buffus, Castaway, RoboChef, TreeStats, Splitpea...all addons I recall using in Asheron's Call loooong before WoW was even a pipe dream. Even unattended bots for things like buffs, portals and Marketplace {player run vendor mules} were acceptable and commonplace. The only things that were considered evil were UCMs {unattended combat macros} which were bannable. Even then, it was the action that was bannable. not the mod itself, much like many of the programs we use today to multi-box.

[Knytestorme]

I don't actually mind this change.

1. Developers can still get paid for their work as they aren't banned for requesting donations in the docs, on the websites, etc
2. Users can be more assured that there is no nefarious code in the base (yes, it's the same argument I feel is worthless for most OSS but here the code is small and simple enough for nearly anyone to check out)
3. Blizzard are a little more covered in terms of protecting their IP (Under US case law if you don't defend your IP in one situation and it can be proven in a case then your IP defense becomes a lot weaker, or non-existent, in future cases)
4. Blizzard can spend less resources on examining and testing add-ons when people start complaining about getting keyloggers in them.

Yes, it does mean that developers will have to rely on the donation distribution model and I think it's slightly annoying to be told what you can and can't charge for in terms of freedom of choice but there is still the choice there.....develop or don't and I know which way I'm going.

[keyclone]

donations, like shareware, have an extremely low submittance rate ... about 0.1% actually donate
(you don't think Blizzard would shift to a voluntary payment mechanism, do you? ask stray bullet how well that works out)

as for the open software being keylogger free, oh please. i have seen 'open source' software release whose binary didn't match the code. others where the code released couldn't even build. most people just grab the binary and run it. and even if they did download the code, 1 in a thousand may understand what they are looking at, let alone see a potential problem.

[Knytestorme]

donations, like shareware, have an extremely low submittance rate ... about 0.1% actually donate
(you don't think Blizzard would shift to a voluntary payment mechanism, do you? ask stray bullet how well that works out)

as for the open software being keylogger free, oh please. i have seen 'open source' software release whose binary didn't match the code. others where the code released couldn't even build. most people just grab the binary and run it. and even if they did download the code, 1 in a thousand may understand what they are looking at, let alone see a potential problem.


Oh don't worry, I agree with you Rob.....donation method is a very bad model to use for generating income but it's the model most OSS defenders use (and Stallman champions) for developers so if Blizzard are forcing all add-ons to effectively be OSS then we'll see just how many of the proponents eat their own food.

The other comments you make are totally valid as well, and I agree with them 100% BUT I think in this case, if even 1 in 10000 look at and understand the code that is now available word will get out very quickly about any security issues that arise whereas at the moment it's not even that prevalent given most of them come from exe'd add-ons that no-one would even bother de-compiling to check on before there was a question asked about the add-on.

Security through obscurity is never the best way and I think in this case it is one of the reasons Blizzard may be looking at.

Let's take Keyclone as an example, this community is fairly small really and I'm positive that at least a few people de-compiled the first release of it (and maybe quite a few releases after that, possibly some people even still do) so it's fine as a closed solution because there are enough checks and balances on you due to the original consumer base but if you were to have only released it recently as a tool that's more useful to the general public and were up to no good then it would take a lot longer to track down what was happening.

[ragawaga]

Other addons that are charged for are the in game versions of levelling guides such as Brian Kopp's and Zygor's.

I know that they offer the guide as a basic PDF, but you have to pay extra for the in-game version.

[Kel]

I see this as a neutral/positive change, probably because I don't use any addons that require payment and also because I'm only an end user of software development. It could be seen as a move to nip this sort of behaviour in the bud, I don't know how much Carbonite costs, but there is a risk that other addon developers would see payment as a good option. There's not many people who wouldn't like a bit of extra income and for people making good quality addons and keeping them updated regularly for fun it could be very appealing to charge for it too if it seems that the market is out there. If it did become a widespread thing though it creates a divide in game experience between those who are willing/able to pay for addons versus those who are not. There are plenty of addons which aren't really important for game play, but there are many that do provide an edge in various areas (e.g. DBM, omen, healbot).

As a slight aside, in the comments on the WoWInsider article someone was expressing concern that Blizzard could use this to put a stop to addons such as decursive or cooldown timers. As a raider my first reaction was that this would be a terrible thing, on the flip side though many people are complaining about how easy the game is at the moment. This is partly to do with encounter design, but it can't help that for most things it's much easier to get an addon than actually pay attention to what's going on in the game. I'd hate to have to use the default action bars and unit frames, but I can't say I'd be that dissapointed if DBM was removed and you had to pay attention to casting animations on bosses rather than a warning bar on your screen (though I can imagine it would make things a lot harder for guild, like mine, who have a fair few people who can't manage even with addons).

[moog]

I'd hate to have to use the default action bars and unit framesI'm pretty sure they'd have a lot of cancellations that month... my 5 to start with!

[zanthor]

I was surprised that addons were allowed in World of Warcraft right after release (maybe before release too, but I wasn't around then) because addons were considered EVIL to EverQuest and other MMOs.

Decal + BanditSight, Nerfus Buffus, Castaway, RoboChef, TreeStats, Splitpea...all addons I recall using in Asheron's Call loooong before WoW was even a pipe dream. Even unattended bots for things like buffs, portals and Marketplace {player run vendor mules} were acceptable and commonplace. The only things that were considered evil were UCMs {unattended combat macros} which were bannable. Even then, it was the action that was bannable. not the mod itself, much like many of the programs we use today to multi-box.EQ supported a customizable UI before the release of WOW. It was XML based and very much a pain in the ass to modify but you could create a totally custom UI if you had the time and skills. I know for a fact it was pre-wow because the day I got into WoW Beta 3 is the day I canceled my EQ accounts as well as my SWG accounts.

[Seraphaw]

I'd hate to have to use the default action bars and unit framesI'm pretty sure they'd have a lot of cancellations that month... my 5 to start with!

Don't be so melodramatic, it's getting quite old. This is a pretty shitty move by blizzard, but it's not the end of the world... of warcraft.

[Bigfish]

Ah, sweet sweet tight-fisted corporate lawyers. Apparently rule #1 at blizzard is now "Thou shalt not make money if you are not giving Blizzard a cut". Can't wait til they start bugging Keyclone for their share.

Is it just me, or does anyone else feel like blizzard is clenching their fist to try and make more money?

[AtroxCasus]

Guys, don't be so alarmist. First of all, how many addons besides Carbonite come to mind that actually require payment? Right, maybe one or two. So do you really think people who aren't already charging for their addons are going to stop making them? It doesn't make sense.

As for the donation angle, what it specifically states is that it can NOT ask for donations while running in your game. They are not forbidding anyone to solicit donations.

As for their "right" to do this, or the "big bad corporation" not wanting people to make money off their game...well, yeah, of course they don't. When was the last time anyone in this forum started a business hoping someone else could make money off your idea? The bottom line is this- they own WoW, and even without the various patent/copyright/intellectual property laws, they would still be within their rights to say "you can't make money by selling something to be used inside our game". To give you an example, let's say JK Rowling wrote the first Harry Potter book, and had no right to her intellectual property. 40 other people write Harry Potter books, and all of them get money. How is that different than someone stealing a car from a dealership, and then selling it across the street from the dealer?

Trying to use Microsoft as an example is just bad. An operating system by design runs your computer, what programs it will run have nothing to do with it beyond that. And Microsoft already has a mechanism in place for progams like Office, where you can buy a single copy, or get 'licenses" for X number of copies to be run by you, your company or whatever, but they don't want you buying one copy, and loading it on to 300 machines. They would lose money, and that is not the goal of any business. Addons and WoW are completely different than Vista and WoW running on it.

You're running around screaming "the sky is falling". Blizzard is saying "These people already pay to play WoW, and you can not charge them for addons that will run on our game, which they already pay for." Why are you freaking out? Telling someone "You can't make money off my work" isn't evil, it's practical.

[Bigfish]

Guys, don't be so alarmist. First of all, how many addons besides Carbonite come to mind that actually require payment? Right, maybe one or two. So do you really think people who aren't already charging for their addons are going to stop making them? It doesn't make sense.

As for the donation angle, what it specifically states is that it can NOT ask for donations while running in your game. They are not forbidding anyone to solicit donations.

As for their "right" to do this, or the "big bad corporation" not wanting people to make money off their game...well, yeah, of course they don't. When was the last time anyone in this forum started a business hoping someone else could make money off your idea? The bottom line is this- they own WoW, and even without the various patent/copyright/intellectual property laws, they would still be within their rights to say "you can't make money by selling something to be used inside our game". To give you an example, let's say JK Rowling wrote the first Harry Potter book, and had no right to her intellectual property. 40 other people write Harry Potter books, and all of them get money. How is that different than someone stealing a car from a dealership, and then selling it across the street from the dealer?

Trying to use Microsoft as an example is just bad. An operating system by design runs your computer, what programs it will run have nothing to do with it beyond that. And Microsoft already has a mechanism in place for progams like Office, where you can buy a single copy, or get 'licenses" for X number of copies to be run by you, your company or whatever, but they don't want you buying one copy, and loading it on to 300 machines. They would lose money, and that is not the goal of any business. Addons and WoW are completely different than Vista and WoW running on it.

You're running around screaming "the sky is falling". Blizzard is saying "These people already pay to play WoW, and you can not charge them for addons that will run on our game, which they already pay for." Why are you freaking out? Telling someone "You can't make money off my work" isn't evil, it's practical.

Its not quite that simple. Its not a matter of anyone trying to sell hijacked copies of WoW. Its more akin to who owns what, and what rights you have to that creation. Blizzard allows WoW to use custom UI. Now they're just adding the caveat that you can't make money off an add-on that you code, despite the fact that you put time and labor in to it, and that it is your code.

But then, its not a question of what Blizzard wants, but what the courts and the legislature decide concerning property rights of such things.

[BW~Merlin]

No I see them as trying to stop wow costing more then $15 a month. As for keyclone and other tools I guess it's possible that they may come after them but it would be more difficult as many are not built just for wow (like hotkeynet which can be used for other games/programs besides wow). Shall have to wait and see.

[AtroxCasus]

Guys, don't be so alarmist. First of all, how many addons besides Carbonite come to mind that actually require payment? Right, maybe one or two. So do you really think people who aren't already charging for their addons are going to stop making them? It doesn't make sense.

As for the donation angle, what it specifically states is that it can NOT ask for donations while running in your game. They are not forbidding anyone to solicit donations.

As for their "right" to do this, or the "big bad corporation" not wanting people to make money off their game...well, yeah, of course they don't. When was the last time anyone in this forum started a business hoping someone else could make money off your idea? The bottom line is this- they own WoW, and even without the various patent/copyright/intellectual property laws, they would still be within their rights to say "you can't make money by selling something to be used inside our game". To give you an example, let's say JK Rowling wrote the first Harry Potter book, and had no right to her intellectual property. 40 other people write Harry Potter books, and all of them get money. How is that different than someone stealing a car from a dealership, and then selling it across the street from the dealer?

Trying to use Microsoft as an example is just bad. An operating system by design runs your computer, what programs it will run have nothing to do with it beyond that. And Microsoft already has a mechanism in place for progams like Office, where you can buy a single copy, or get 'licenses" for X number of copies to be run by you, your company or whatever, but they don't want you buying one copy, and loading it on to 300 machines. They would lose money, and that is not the goal of any business. Addons and WoW are completely different than Vista and WoW running on it.

You're running around screaming "the sky is falling". Blizzard is saying "These people already pay to play WoW, and you can not charge them for addons that will run on our game, which they already pay for." Why are you freaking out? Telling someone "You can't make money off my work" isn't evil, it's practical.

Its not quite that simple. Its not a matter of anyone trying to sell hijacked copies of WoW. Its more akin to who owns what, and what rights you have to that creation. Blizzard allows WoW to use custom UI. Now they're just adding the caveat that you can't make money off an add-on that you code, despite the fact that you put time and labor in to it, and that it is your code.

But then, its not a question of what Blizzard wants, but what the courts and the legislature decide concerning property rights of such things.People code addons because they want to, and share them because they want to. If Blizzard mandated that any addon be publicly available, there might be an argument for charging for them. It doesn't change that the addon is useless without WoW. It's the same reason you can't market anything with "Star Wars" on it without paying Lucas. If it weren't for the name brand recognition, you wouldn't have a market. Blizzard owns WoW, and if they don't want someone to make money off a product that uses their name/code/company why isn't it their right to prevent it? By that logic, if you could code your own full service server, you could then charge people only 5 bucks a month to play and Blizzard couldn't say anything to you.

[Bigfish]

It's the same reason you can't market anything with "Star Wars" on it without paying Lucas.

Unless it falls under Fair Use.

[Catamer]

carbonite probably did this to themselves with the i'll fated 2.03 release ( the free versions )
the 2.02 release can sometimes locks up my PC for several seconds, 2.03 solved this but had a pop up on the screen saying it was no longer valid.
this means this addon connected the internet and auto-validated itself, it was WAY beyond an addon if you ask me.

I love carbonite but I was REALLY pissed when I had to demote to a lower buggy version.

[zanthor]

carbonite probably did this to themselves with the i'll fated 2.03 release ( the free versions )
the 2.02 release can sometimes locks up my PC for several seconds, 2.03 solved this but had a pop up on the screen saying it was no longer valid.
this means this addon connected the internet and auto-validated itself, it was WAY beyond an addon if you ask me.

I love carbonite but I was REALLY pissed when I had to demote to a lower buggy version.Bold is utter crap and cannot be done within the UI interface.

[Talamarr]

I'm kinda thinking they're just shoring up some legal policies. After all, Blizzard just had a big court case with [application that shall not be mentioned]; maybe some legal issues on Blizzard's side came up and now they are trying to tie loose ends.

I wouldn't be surprised to see more "clarifications" like this in the near future.

[Bigfish]

I'm kinda thinking they're just shoring up some legal policies. After all, Blizzard just had a big court case with [application that shall not be mentioned]; maybe some legal issues on Blizzard's side came up and now they are trying to tie loose ends.

I wouldn't be surprised to see more "clarifications" like this in the near future.

If you mean by "legal issues", they won their case and are now pushing to see how far they can extend the ruling. Not surprising, but at the same time, a bit disconcerting.

[BW~Merlin]

this means this addon connected the internet and auto-validated itself, it was WAY beyond an addon if you ask me.

Addons can not access anything outside of wow ie. the internet. What was happening was people were updating to a new version of carbonite which was then sending out "hey there is a new version out" to all the users of carbonite (many addons will tell you that there is a latter version available if someone you have come in contact with (pary/raid/guild) has it installed) but built into that carbonite "new version out" message was a stop working command that stopped carbonite working if you had the old version.

[moog]

I'd hate to have to use the default action bars and unit framesI'm pretty sure they'd have a lot of cancellations that month... my 5 to start with!

Don't be so melodramatic, it's getting quite old. This is a pretty shitty move by blizzard, but it's not the end of the world... of warcraft.
No melodramatics... if you read my post I'm referring to if they were to stop all addons and force you to use default UI and action bars then I would stop playing.

If this retarded move by Blizzard kills off Carbonite then I will, personally, be very pissed off but it won't stop me playing.

[Vyndree]

The one thing I can agree with this is the part about not obfuscating addon code.

Does anyone remember the old PreformAV addon? The code was littered with subfunctions and variables named IlllIlIlIIlI and function names were like alliance_sucks and the like. Functions would call other functions which would call other functions which would return "is_horde" which really was a variable that returned true if you were alliance. There were so many checks and double-checks for whether or not you were alliance and disabling alliance from using Preform and making it incredibly hard to undo all the ridiculous naming schemes and restrictions so that the addon wouldn't be horde-only. The author would cry foul whenever a "hacked" version of his addon would show up that was usable by alliance -- he'd claim copyright infringement and have it removed from the addon site.

Granted, he's no longer completely insane anymore and the addon works for both factions, but before that he was convinced that horde always lost AV and demanded that his premade-forming addon be only usable by horde.

I, for one, am glad that there's a new rule that code must be readable. For one, it allows those who ARE concerned to check out what the addon is doing, and two, it discourages the douchebaggery above. I'm not quite so happy with the enforcement of freeware -- but at least some of the rules being put into play I can wholeheartedly agree with.

[Catamer]

omg, I'm alliance and I actually tried to use PreformAV and thought it never worked right.... now I know why.
pitty A/V is non-existant now. I used to love a good A/V.

Yeah, I vote for readable addons too.

[BW~Merlin]

I just found out that the author of outfitter has pulled the plug in protest as well. I really really like outfitter and it took my a while to find it as a replacement for wardrobe when it was abandoned.

[zanthor]

I just found out that the author of outfitter has pulled the plug in protest as well. I really really like outfitter and it took my a while to find it as a replacement for wardrobe when it was abandoned.

ItemRack?I've used both and quite frankly Outfitter was notably better.

My hopes are that the in game solution in 3.1 is sufficient.

[Omer]

Im pretty sure Keyclone isn't a wow addon. Since you don't see it when you click the addon thing, and since it's an indepenedent program apart from wow.

[Talamarr]

After reading up more on the policy change and the reaction from the player base, I'm now on the side of "everyone is overacting"

Yea, it sucks for the addon devs who were making good money from their addons; I mean, who doesn't like a good entrepreneurial story right? And I certainly support their right to make and sell a piece of software (the open source nazis can diaf ;) )

BUT, it IS Blizzards game and their stance is very understandable. Especially the obfuscated code part and the no in-game ads policy for very obvious reasons. There are good arguments on both sides about not allowing a "premium" version for an addon though.

[Bigfish]

Im pretty sure Keyclone isn't a wow addon. Since you don't see it when you click the addon thing, and since it's an indepenedent program apart from wow.

Keyclone isn't an addon, but it specifically interacts with WoW (I think. If anyone wants to correct me, please do), so it wouldn't surprise me if it gets lumped under an eventual crack down.

I hope not though.


"Its free - but if I don't get money, I'm not developing anymore". Its not "free" by any means. Its payware - just not everyone has to pay (if you're donating, you're basically free loading in this guys opinion).

Its really closer to the provision of a public good that sustains itself via donations, and as with all publicly financed public goods, you have the free rider problem. The guy isn't just exagerating when he says Blizzard has decided the time and skills of add-on developers aren't worth anything. Blizzard is well within their rights for doing what they are doing, but at the same time, I can't help but wonder if they are biting the hand that feeds them.

[Leon]

Meh.
I see it as an over reliance on add ons and such these days. the game is still happily playable without needing xyz mods on.
I use 3 - 2 are required by the guilds i used to raid with (Omen and DBM) the other is a map one that i find useful sometimes (Cartographer)

I have in the past had many many more but ultimately i don't see the need for them anymore, the mind boggles at a thing that you pay for to help you workout your quests, i play with people who do use it (no idea what one it was) and have found that my knowledge of the game and/or a quick look at a Info Site is better most times

[Ellay]

I turned off my quest helper addon a long time ago because I kept getting spammed everytime I logged in.

[keyclone]

Keyclone isn't an addon, but it specifically interacts with WoW (I think. If anyone wants to correct me, please do)keyclone does not interact anymore with wow than it does with notepad. the only wow specific additions i made were the username and fps settings. keyclone is as much of an addon as the G15 is.


anyone that thinks it is worth it to work for donations, you really have no understanding of the subject matter. let's say an add-on takes 2 weeks to code, that is 80 hours of work. let's say the dev puts a $10 donation button on his site and had 100,000 people download it over 6 months from his domain, which costs him $25/mon. total cost: 6 * $25 = $150 + 80 hrs work. and that does not add the support costs of updates. let's say it takes 2 hours for tweaks every month... tack on another 12 hours. 92 hrs work in 6 months.

if 0.1% of the downloaders donate, you'd be doing well. that would be 100 people... @ $10 ea == $1000. subtract the web fee, and he's @ $850, or about $142/mo. and he would be doing about 15 hrs/mon support on average... so the add-on brought him about $9.50/hr

yea, that was worth it. he'd make more selling accounts. ($300/account ... 10 days to create 5x level 80.. 15 accounts per month == $4500/mon)

i am by no means suggesting anyone sell accounts, i'm just trying to give context.

[Svpernova09]

I must be one of the few people that questhelper doesn't bother / slow down. I've disabled it, and seen no performance boost.

[Bigfish]

keyclone does not interact anymore with wow than it does with notepad. the only wow specific additions i made were the username and fps settings. keyclone is as much of an addon as the G15 is.


anyone that thinks it is worth it to work for donations, you really have no understanding of the subject matter. let's say an add-on takes 2 weeks to code, that is 80 hours of work. let's say the dev puts a $10 donation button on his site and had 100,000 people download it over 6 months from his domain, which costs him $25/mon. total cost: 6 * $25 = $150 + 80 hrs work. and that does not add the support costs of updates. let's say it takes 2 hours for tweaks every month... tack on another 12 hours. 92 hrs work in 6 months.

if 0.1% of the downloaders donate, you'd be doing well. that would be 100 people... @ $10 ea == $1000. subtract the web fee, and he's @ $850, or about $142/mo. and he would be doing about 15 hrs/mon support on average... so the add-on brought him about $9.50/hr

yea, that was worth it. he'd make more selling accounts. ($300/account ... 10 days to create 5x level 80.. 15 accounts per month == $4500/mon)

i am by no means suggesting anyone sell accounts, i'm just trying to give context.

I stand corrected. Thank you.

Concerning working for donations though, there is a certain degree of incentive analysis to it, namely, if no one thinks the good will be retracted, no one will donate. If the good is genuinely valued and the public is aware of the need for donations, you may get enough to keep providing it. Or not. Donations are a crummy business model that way. Really, if anyone was going to work for donations I would suggest a forward looking model with a monetary goal that ensures you have enough cash to cover your immediate expenses and a period of time until your next donation drive.

Anyway, developing anything with the express intent of distributing it and taking donations is a pretty poor decision to begin with, particularly if you intend to do so as a significant source of income without an idea of what your pay off will be. Of course, at the same time, how much of this stuff was created at the author's leisure, for fun or to help them put together a significant project for their portfolio? I would argue such projects, while potentially commercially viable, do not fall under the "doing-it-as-a-living" umbrella.

Edit: Oh, and your selling characters example is a bit silly, as it only considers the revenue of selling the character without consideration to the cost of account creation or capital investment (ie, the computer(s) you're running this on), and seems to be based on a flat multi-boxxing 5 characters to 80 in ten days, as well as sets the price of 300$ to whatever gear level you're associating with said 80s. Indeed, potentially viable, but in no certain terms a definitive money maker. The example relies entirely on a number of variables which may or not be accurate.

[dubiox]

Keyclone isn't an addon, but it specifically interacts with WoW (I think. If anyone wants to correct me, please do)keyclone does not interact anymore with wow than it does with notepad. the only wow specific additions i made were the username and fps settings. keyclone is as much of an addon as the G15 is.

I don't think we can rely on common sense any more. You might want to read paragraph 2 on page 6 of the summary judgment ruling on the glider case. http://www.scribd.com/doc/3952427/MDY-Industries-v-Blizzard-Entertainment-D-Ariz-No-062555

-K

[keyclone]

@dubiox
reading that section, i guess you think keyclone copies wow into memory. it does not. windows copies wow into memory when it runs the application. furthermore, at no point in time does keyclone reference any memory occupied by Blizzard's copyrighted material.

[Souca]

Maybe Microsoft / Intel should prohibit Blizzard from makeing a profit off of the use of their products.

Although "WoW" is a popular addon to Windows, seems that Microsoft has full control of what runs on THEIR software.Blizzard paid for the right to develop their software. They paid for the compilers, which even if not written by MS, paid for the right to include runtime libraries to let them run on Windows. Anyway, the analogy is far from a good fit.

I write software for a living, I'm stating this upfront so my bias is clear.

I look at it this way, without WoW, the addons won't work. So someone pays for an addon, which requires WoW to work, what does the addon developer pay to Blizzard for making WoW? It's isn't your monthly subscription and it isn't the developers if they even have one. No where did the developer recieve rights to make profit off of a derivitaive work.

Keyclone and HotKeyNet and all the other MB programs work outside of WoW. This only affects programs that rely on WoW's internal APIs to even exist.

Edit: Replied before I saw this was 80 bazillion posts long. Still stand by my statement.

- Souca -

[dubiox]

It has nothing to do with what I think. It is how the district court interpreted that ninth circuit case that is relevant. Now read paragraph 1, page 5 of that same document. Scary stuff.

Don't get me wrong, I think the policy sucks. If it were my code I'd probably get a professional opinion. On the other hand, it looks like glider got bad advice that they should sue blizzard. If so, it appears that was a big mistake. But who could have predicted that outcome? Maybe I would just wait and use estoppel and laches as defenses. Like, hey you allowed me to write thousands of lines of code for years and now suddenly you pulled the rug out from under me? No way!

I code for someone else and let them deal with the legal issues.

-K

[keyclone]

@dubiox
it would depend on how [that which must not named] 'copied' wow into memory. i believe [that which must not named] read wow from disk and played games with the binary. in that scenario, [that which must not named] would have an issue as they accessed the binary directly, which gave them much better control over the functionality of the game.

if they simply did an exec call, which tells the OS to launch a program... just like every shortcut does... then i would be balking at that paragraph... as the body of the exec call would not be within [that which must not named], but within the OS. it was within the body of the exec call that would have opened the binary, loaded it into memory, and hooked up the dlls.

i have never installed or run [that which must not named], so i have no direct knowledge of the subject

[Sam DeathWalker]

Its just an improper business decision.

You always want more people involved with your product. Having a platform that lets others maximize their revenue from their work cannot possibly hurt your income.

Microsoft COULD eliminate competion for Word or IE explorer by not allowing others to make word processors or browsers for windows, would that benifit them? I think not.

This whole situation where companies claim to own your work product seems questionable to say the least. You develope a character using their product, and they claim they own it ....?

Does Home Depot own the house you made with their hammer?

What if Microsoft suddenly stated that all products made with visual basic (and which could not exist without visual basic) are their property?

What if Intel said that everthing made with their processors is their property?

What if Ford said that everything moved with their cars is their property?

What if your landlord said that everything you think of while on his property is his property?

I don't know its just bad business on Blizzard part.


Assuming it gets published, The district court judgement has no effect of law beyond the district in which the judgement was issued. No other court is REQUIRED to follow it. If its appealed to the Ninth Circuit THEN their decision would be law for all states in their jurisdiction (big area by the way). Others can cite to the district court opinion as an example but no other court is required to follow it.

Here is the more recent order:

http://www.exclusiverights.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/mdy-industries-llc-v-blizzard-entertainment-inc.pdf

They havn't even started the appeal process yet. Its not even a published decision yet, if its not published it's of no consequence except to the parties involved.

Ok cool they are going to appeal:

http://www.mmoglider.com/legal/mar10_2009.pdf

So its to early to say anything.

The permanent injunction set forth in this
paragraph shall be stayed pending appeal

Lol he lucked out there.

Bond Requirements for Stay of the Money Judgment. MDY and Michael
Donnelly shall place all present and future profits obtained from the sale of Glider or other
operations of MDY, including all monies set aside by MDY and Donnelly from the
commencement of this suit, in an escrow account approved by Blizzard. Such funds shall
remain in escrow pending further order of the Court. MDY shall report its monthly income
and expenses to Blizzard during the pendency of the appeal. Within 30 days after all appeals
being exhausted, the parties shall file a joint status report regarding the appropriate
disposition of the escrow funds

Lucked out there to ...


Well. Looks like Judge was happy to allow appeal.

Anyway that case is on appeal and we will see what the Ninth Circuit has to say.


You know thinking about ti all this new move on Blizzard Part might be to shore up their claim they are only granting limited linces to their users, as if someone else is making money from a wow direvitie product without engaging in copyright infringment, then why isnt MDY also not violating copyright. Timeing seems proper, order on the 10th and new policy comes out a week or so later.

I mean how is it that MDY is engaging in copywrite infringment but carbonite is not?



Also mdy was advised to sue so that they could get a favorble venue (arizonia), had blizzard sued first the case would be heard in southern california no doubt with more likely favorable outcome for Blizzard.

[RobinGBrown]

Its just an improper business decision.

You always want more people involved with your product. Having a platform that lets others maximize their revenue from their work cannot possibly hurt your income.

Microsoft COULD eliminate competion for Word or IE explorer by not allowing others to make word processors or browsers for windows, would that benifit them? I think not.

This whole situation where companies claim to own your work product seems questionable to say the least. You develope a character using their product, and they claim they own it ....?

Does Home Depot own the house you made with their hammer?

What if Microsoft suddenly stated that all products made with visual basic (and which could not exist without visual basic) are their property?

What if Intel said that everthing made with their processors is their property?

What if Ford said that everything moved with their cars is their property?

What if your landlord said that everything you think of while on his property is his property?

I don't know its just bad business on Blizzard part.


Lets say you own some property and the tenants pay rent to you.

You find out that the tenants have been subletting the property to someone else.

According to the Deathwalker principles above your tenants are entitled to make whatever monies they like out of your property.

There is a clear precedent in business that users of a product are not allowed to make money off that product unless specifically contracted to do so.

Really this whole thread is just QQ.

[Svpernova09]

This is not the place for Glider discussion. Please keep misconceptions and misunderstandings to yourself, and not here. If you want to discuss it, take it to their site.



3rd party programs != LUA addons.



Keyclone is fine l2p
Glider is Bad l2notbot

[Tehtsuo]

I don't disagree with most of the points they made - of course they need to keep out of the legal crosshairs by making sure they take a strong stance against inappropriate content in addons. Hot Coffee made that clear, I'm surprised it took them this long to set the record straight on this. Getting an "M" or "A" ESRB rating slapped on World of Warcraft would be a pretty rough break for Blizzard. Obfuscating code is obviously a bad deal, because Blizzard doesn't investigate addons for its user base - they depend on other users to look into addon code and say "Oh this addon is fine" or "Hey lookie here, there's a part of this addon that silently spams random players with pornographic messages."

I'll even turn a blind eye to Blizzard forbidding pay-based addons - imagine if the only Bigwigs or DBM addon available was pay-only. Having an addon with a purchase price or monthly fee being required to raid in WoW would seperate users pretty quickly. Also, I applaud them for taking a proactive stance on advertizing in-game. I don't want to see ad windows for weight loss start creeping into my addons.

The part that I'll fight with every breath of my body is forbidding donation requests. That's crossing the line, people are perfectly in their rights to make it known that they appreciate donations, and provide information on how to donate. I expect donation links on addon websites, but Blizzard should know just as well as all of us that you have to put the reminder where it'll be seen. Even the most charitable users only visit addon developer websites once in a blue moon - most people never visit them at all. Those same people use the addons every day.

[zanthor]

Maybe Microsoft / Intel should prohibit Blizzard from makeing a profit off of the use of their products.

Although "WoW" is a popular addon to Windows, seems that Microsoft has full control of what runs on THEIR software.Blizzard paid for the right to develop their software. They paid for the compilers, which even if not written by MS, paid for the right to include runtime libraries to let them run on Windows. Anyway, the analogy is far from a good fit.

I write software for a living, I'm stating this upfront so my bias is clear.

I look at it this way, without WoW, the addons won't work. So someone pays for an addon, which requires WoW to work, what does the addon developer pay to Blizzard for making WoW? It's isn't your monthly subscription and it isn't the developers if they even have one. No where did the developer recieve rights to make profit off of a derivitaive work.

Keyclone and HotKeyNet and all the other MB programs work outside of WoW. This only affects programs that rely on WoW's internal APIs to even exist.

Edit: Replied before I saw this was 80 bazillion posts long. Still stand by my statement.

- Souca -So you are saying it's OK for Microsoft to mandate no one can charge for .NET applications and that they all must be free and unobfuscated?

.NET is a free API and tools are available to develop entirely for free... just like LUA and the interface UI.

Windows is to .NET Applications as WoW is to WoW Addons.

Dangerous.
Slippery.

And while IANAL I would say dancing on non-compete laws.

[Tehtsuo]

Maybe Microsoft / Intel should prohibit Blizzard from makeing a profit off of the use of their products.

Although "WoW" is a popular addon to Windows, seems that Microsoft has full control of what runs on THEIR software.Blizzard paid for the right to develop their software. They paid for the compilers, which even if not written by MS, paid for the right to include runtime libraries to let them run on Windows. Anyway, the analogy is far from a good fit.

I write software for a living, I'm stating this upfront so my bias is clear.

I look at it this way, without WoW, the addons won't work. So someone pays for an addon, which requires WoW to work, what does the addon developer pay to Blizzard for making WoW? It's isn't your monthly subscription and it isn't the developers if they even have one. No where did the developer recieve rights to make profit off of a derivitaive work.

Keyclone and HotKeyNet and all the other MB programs work outside of WoW. This only affects programs that rely on WoW's internal APIs to even exist.

Edit: Replied before I saw this was 80 bazillion posts long. Still stand by my statement.

- Souca -So you are saying it's OK for Microsoft to mandate no one can charge for .NET applications and that they all must be free and unobfuscated?

.NET is a free API and tools are available to develop entirely for free... just like LUA and the interface UI.

Windows is to .NET Applications as WoW is to WoW Addons.

Dangerous.
Slippery.

And while IANAL I would say dancing on non-compete laws.Sorry, but there's no precedence that would put Microsoft at risk for content included in applications written to run on Windows. There is precedence that puts game companies at risk for content distributed to run in their games.

[Portal]

Its just an improper business decision.

You always want more people involved with your product. Having a platform that lets others maximize their revenue from their work cannot possibly hurt your income.

Unless it drives off users.




This whole situation where companies claim to own your work product seems questionable to say the least. You develope a character using their product, and they claim they own it ....?

Does Home Depot own the house you made with their hammer?

If you used their hammer(software), materials(IP) and built it on their land(servers) then I suspect that they would claim ownership, yes.



What if Microsoft suddenly stated that all products made with visual basic (and which could not exist without visual basic) are their property?
I don't know its just bad business on Blizzard part.

They would lose most of their customers - if you're suggesting that Blizzard will lose most of theirs (or developers) then I have to disagree.

From what I've read, the real motivation behind this has nothing to do with mod-developers making money and everything to do with Bliz attempting to create a level playing field for all players. The reason IP is an issue is because Bliz wants to retain the rights to incorporate the functionality of any mods made by the community to the game itself (as they have done several times already - eg Omen). In otherwords they want to be able to copy the ideas of community developers and not be sued for doing so. It sucks for mod developers but is probably better overall for the players.

If WoW didn't have the level playing fied that it does (even system requirements are low to help with this) then it wouldn't have the millions of subscribers it has now.

[zanthor]

They would lose most of their customers - if you're suggesting that Blizzard will lose most of theirs (or developers) then I have to disagree.

From what I've read, the real motivation behind this has nothing to do with mod-developers making money and everything to do with Bliz attempting to create a level playing field for all players. The reason IP is an issue is because Bliz wants to retain the rights to incorporate the functionality of any mods made by the community to the game itself (as they have done several times already - eg Omen). In otherwords they want to be able to copy the ideas of community developers and not be sued for doing so. It sucks for mod developers but is probably better overall for the players.

If WoW didn't have the level playing fied that it does (even system requirements are low to help with this) then it wouldn't have the millions of subscribers it has now.

Blizzard won't lose most of their customers - but thats not the point.

Lets say I'm making my living off a .NET application and Microsoft tried to force me to give it away - I would have two choices - one is to stop development of the product, and change careers. The other is to sue Microsoft for anti-competitive behavior in a country where that behavior is illegal. Are there freeware apps that do the same thing as mine? Maybe - but mine is better - how do I know this? People are willing to pay me for my solution while free products exist.

Flip that around to WoW - Same situation - in this case we'll see the top quality developers stop making their product and focus on where to make money elsewhere - whats lost? Their contributions, innovations, etc. As such we the players now have a worse selection of addons that aren't as robust or stable. Blizzard gains nothing by this move - they lose plenty.

Is it their right? Absolutely. Their game, their platform. Is it inherently a bad decision? Absolutely.

Are any of us likely to see the direct results in a tangible and measurable way - thats to be seen, but I'd wager yes.

And as far as blizzard caring about a level playing field to that extent - I'd call bullshit on it. Not that it matters, we are all just guessing on the why. My guess is to say this was directly related to Carbonite adding a free-add-driven version and blizzard overreacting to such. (Don't get me wrong, they CERTAINLY needed to react, I just think the ban on obfusctated code and retail sale of software was crap.)

[Portal]

Is it their right? Absolutely. Their game, their platform. Is it inherently a bad decision? Absolutely.

I think absolutely applies to the mod developers, sure.
Blizzard? No way. For it to be bad they need to lose players either now, or in the future due to lack of mod development. The number they lose would also need to be greater than potential losses to that level playing field we discussed.
Players? Not for most of us - at least not yet. Yes, we'll probably lose carbonite and the potential for future add-ons from those looking to make a career out of it (or at least suplement their income) - but again, that has to be weighed against the potential of being made to pay for 'required' mods. There are many mods that are required for raiding guilds.


And as far as blizzard caring about a level playing field to that extent - I'd call bullshit on it. Not that it matters, we are all just guessing on the why. My guess is to say this was directly related to Carbonite adding a free-add-driven version and blizzard overreacting to such. (Don't get me wrong, they CERTAINLY needed to react, I just think the ban on obfusctated code and retail sale of software was crap.)

Your guess fits better into a litigious society than mine so I concede that is probalby the case. While I think they do care about a level playing field (banning of gold sellers, botters etc) it was probably not adequate to put paid mods on their radar as none currently affect the balance of the game. Their history has been more reactive then pro-active.

[kadaan]

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/policy/ui.html
1) Add-ons must be free of charge.
All add-ons must be distributed free of charge. Developers may not create "premium" versions of add-ons with additional for-pay features, charge money to download an add-on, charge for services related to the add-on, or otherwise require some form of monetary compensation to download or access an add-on.#1 (and 5, to a lesser extent) seem to be the ones everyone is focusing on as "bad". Even though there are very, very few addons that are affected by this (only one named in the thread that I saw, and I know WoWEcon is as well.) it seems like people are screaming it's the end of addons as we know it. Seriously? A couple addons want to charge, Blizzard says no, and now everyone is morally offended and some people are even talking about cancelling their addon development or wow accounts? People who most likely never charged for their addon nor used one that did? I'm sure people will still try to charge for addons even though it's against the rules, just like people still bot, people still buy gold, still sell accounts. This rule is just to show that they don't endorse it, and are trying to quash the trend before it starts. Having professional mods that give you a distinct gameplay advantage only obtainable by paying are bad. Sure, "anyone could write their own version," but how long do you think it would take to write something like Auctioneer or QuestHelper?

2) Add-on code must be completely visible.
The programming code of an add-on must in no way be hidden or obfuscated, and must be freely accessible to and viewable by the general public. This is good. While 99.9% of users will never look at the actual code, having easy to read makes it easy to find bugs and to verify that it does what it says it does.
3) Add-ons must not negatively impact World of Warcraft realms or other players.
Add-ons will perform no function which, in Blizzard Entertainment's sole discretion, negatively impacts the performance of the World of Warcraft realms or otherwise negatively affects the game for other players. For example, this includes but is not limited to excessive use of the chat system, unnecessary loading from the hard disk, and slow frame rates. Good, duh.

4) Add-ons may not include advertisements.
Add-ons may not be used to advertise any goods or services. Very good. With all the Warhammer adds popping up online, can you imagine if something like Omen or DBM got paid by Warhammer to put a big warhammer ad in-game when you log on?
5) Add-ons may not solicit donations.
Add-ons may not include requests for donations. We recognize the immense amount of effort and resources that go into developing an add-on; however, such requests should be limited to the add-on website or distribution site and should not appear in the game. Sucks for addon developers trying to cover costs and make money from their addons, but as other people have said; there are very few addons that actually fall under this category. Personally, I think less spam is always good. Besides, you can always say something like "Please visit the official addon website at blahblah.com to show your support for this addon" and ask for donations on the site. Just don't use the word 'donation' in-game and you're fine.
6) Add-ons must not contain offensive or objectionable material.
World of Warcraft has been given a "T" by the ESRB, and similar ratings from other ratings boards around the world. Blizzard Entertainment requires that add-ons not include any material that would not be allowed under these ratings. Just to cover themselves I guess, since the "T" rating is also followed by "game experience may change by online play" clause or whatever.
7) Add-ons must abide by World of Warcraft ToU and EULA.
All add-ons must follow the World of Warcraft Terms of Use and the World of Warcraft End User License Agreement. Another cover-their-rear clause I assume.

8 ) Blizzard Entertainment has the right to disable add-on functionality as it sees fit.
To maintain the integrity World of Warcraft and ensure the best possible gaming experience for our players, Blizzard Entertainment reserves the right to disable any add-on functionality within World of Warcraft at its sole discretion. For more information... Pretty sure this has always been there, and obviously they have the right to do whatever they want with their game, they do own it.

[zanthor]

There are many mods that are required for raiding guilds.Yep, and they DO make a difference - but thats strictly the choice of the players to use them. Vent makes a difference - even with the uber shitty in game voicechat - are they going to ban use of VOIP coms outside their own for a fee?

As for the policy - yes, 1 and 5 are the sticking points that offend me.

1 - No pay for play addons - this offends me as a capitalist pig. If I have a product or service and chose to sell it - by god in America I have the right to do so. Now does Blizzard have the right to block that Addon - certainly. But by doing so I fear they will hurt the free software that competes by not having professional competition to keep them up. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread - how far would OS solutions be if pay solutions didn't exist.

5 - This is touchy ground - Quite frankly if the user doesn't mind the nag in game then it shouldn't be an issue. I wouldn't personally run any mods that nagged me to register in game - IN GAME is my time to escape. What this takes away though is the potential for donate buttons on static panels of the config screens, etc... AddonSetup->About->Click to Donate. That I'm all behind - as long as the addons dont spam chat channels this affects blizzard in absolutely NO fashion at all.

[Inate]

What a lot of you seem to be missing is the point that WoW is a game. With a very limited life-span in the terms of "OS functionality" as you people seem to be loving for a comparision.
Windows and WoW only have one thing in common, they need each other to run. WoW LUCKILY for us, allows the use of add-ons that make our game time better, be it for raiding, bosses ability, etc...
They don't HAVE to, as has been proven by many other games telling people to play within their rules.

The problem here is people are making money OFF of BLIZZARD'S game/programming language. Yes people deserve recognition for said add-ons, but to ask for money to use them(outside of allowing a donation button on their webpage) is bullshit. Half the time the addons in question are absolute garbage anyways and tend to automate things in a way that blizzard never intended or wanted. It's the SAME as asking for money for a botting program, or asking for money for gold in game, it is all on the same principle. Which is why I think this new add-on set up for them is due to the whole botting craze and the law suit that only just closed up not to long ago. You can't say "ohh well you can do this for money, buuuut this is okay for money" that's hypocritical, and the entire reason they even had a place in that law suit was because of the money side of things.

There's no problem here, if people don't want to make an add-on full time anymore, good, go get a friggen job and do it for your own personal use. Will I miss some of the add-ons, no, other smarter people will take their place... That's the beauty of open-source.

[Bigfish]

Psychologically speaking, we (boxers) are a group that thrives on our ability to pay for an advantage. In the market of what you can pay out of game to improve yourself ingame, watching the first step of the supply getting shut down is going to get people on edge. Today, its pay for use add-ons (which I would hope have a significant quality above free ones). Tomorrow, they start listing boxing software as a bannable application.

Is it likely to happen? Not in the slightest, but it's the reaction that the first event evokes that is riling everyone's feathers. There is a shift in policy at Blizzard, and such things naturally make people nervous, wondering if something they do or use is on the chopping block.

[zanthor]

Half the time the addons in question are absolute garbage anyways and tend to automate things in a way that blizzard never intended or wanted. It's the SAME as asking for money for a botting program, or asking for money for gold in game, it is all on the same principle.You demonstrate exactly how experienced you are with ForPay addons right here.

Quality: I've been a subscriber to two paid mods, RDX and Carbonite, both are a step above any other addon I've ever used. Well written, low memory use for what they accomplish, well documented, well supported.

Automation: No addon can automate more than blizzard allows it to - Blizzard has complete control over their API and as such complete control over how automated an Addon can be.

Replaced by OSS: Not only will these mods be replaced by OSS - but they already have been - there ARE other solutions for both RDX and Carbonite as well as any other mod you can think of - however people pay for the quality, for the support, and for the confidence that the MOD will be there next patch and not just fade away into the history of MODS. RDX for example stopped development and released his code - OpenRDX was born - a great mod with a great team - and a horribly slow development cycle. I saw more innovation in 3 months than I have since OpenRDX went Open over a year ago... is it the fault of the guys at OpenRDX? Hell no, they rock. They just have jobs, school, lives, etc.

Oh, and if you look around, I'm not the only one saying this is bad news, unknows like Mikord, Venificus ('http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15864749872&sid=1') , Cogwheel ('http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=3881820910&sid=1') and Zorba ('http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15864446930&sid=1') are on the same page as those who think this is a bad thing... only one of which was ever selling an addon subscription.

[algol]

HARDWARE 4 LIFE!

If it ever comes to that, we can and will.

Not that it will ever come to that.

[Bigfish]

If it ever comes to that, we can and will.

Some can, and some will.

Keyclone single handedly opened up multiboxing to the masses. Sure, other software is out there, but Keyclone did most of the work. If software boxing dies, most of the boxers will die with it.

This.

[algol]

Keyclone single handedly opened up multiboxing to the masses. Sure, other software is out there, but Keyclone did most of the work. If software boxing dies, most of the boxers will die with it.
Well, I know I will, if only because I'm a stubborn bastard. :D

[Souca]

Maybe Microsoft / Intel should prohibit Blizzard from makeing a profit off of the use of their products.

Although "WoW" is a popular addon to Windows, seems that Microsoft has full control of what runs on THEIR software.Blizzard paid for the right to develop their software. They paid for the compilers, which even if not written by MS, paid for the right to include runtime libraries to let them run on Windows. Anyway, the analogy is far from a good fit.

I write software for a living, I'm stating this upfront so my bias is clear.

I look at it this way, without WoW, the addons won't work. So someone pays for an addon, which requires WoW to work, what does the addon developer pay to Blizzard for making WoW? It's isn't your monthly subscription and it isn't the developers if they even have one. No where did the developer recieve rights to make profit off of a derivitaive work.

Keyclone and HotKeyNet and all the other MB programs work outside of WoW. This only affects programs that rely on WoW's internal APIs to even exist.

Edit: Replied before I saw this was 80 bazillion posts long. Still stand by my statement.

- Souca -So you are saying it's OK for Microsoft to mandate no one can charge for .NET applications and that they all must be free and unobfuscated?

No, you are implying that's what I said. Please don't.


.NET is a free API and tools are available to develop entirely for free... just like LUA and the interface UI.
I never mentioned .Net and neither did the post I replied to. Please provide a source for your claim that the Blizzard UI and it's APIs are free.



Windows is to .NET Applications as WoW is to WoW Addons.
(An Operating System) is to (An application framework) as (A game) is to (Said games adons)?

There is an open source project to provide a .Net enviornment, I'm pretty sure there isn't and can't be an open source implementation of Wow. It's a flawed analogy anyway.


Dangerous.
Slippery.

And while IANAL I would say dancing on non-compete laws.You're welcome to your opinion, and I'm welcome to mine. Neither will have much effect on Blizzard though.

- Souca -

[Gadzooks]

If it ever comes to that, we can and will.

Some can, and some will.

Keyclone single handedly opened up multiboxing to the masses. Sure, other software is out there, but Keyclone did most of the work. If software boxing dies, most of the boxers will die with it.Which is why I was wondering if this could effect KeyClone - his work is crucial to so many people. I don't use KeyClone myself, as I'm a Mac user, but I'd buy it if he made a Mac version! :)

The only addon I could see paying for would be a quest helper type, the work behind those (if you don't rip off other addons) is immense! Worth the $20 or so that they charge, IMHO. But the advertising in game needs to be blocked, imagine if couple of addons spamming your chat box with donation requests or ads for other addons start fighting it out! Not good.

[RobinGBrown]

I'm hesitant to mention this but there is an easy way for addon developers to get around those rules.

If they develop the addon as a two part system where one part is an in-game addon and the other part is a 'data tool' that creates and updates the data used by the addon then it would be very easy to charge for data updates but not the addon. WoWEcon does something similar to this already.

There are clear business precedents for charging for the data that works with a free tool. It's the data that takes time and effort to create compared to the tool.

Thus Questhelper could charge to download the quest data, WoWEcon could charge for subscription access to their data, etc, while still falling just within the rules.

Edit: Just wanted to add that I'm very happy with the 'no ads in game' rule, I really like it that Blizzard actually try to enforce the RPG aspect of their MMO, as a long time roleplayer I really hate stuff that breaks immersion, and ads from addons would piss me off no end.

[zanthor]

I'm hesitant to mention this but there is an easy way for addon developers to get around those rules.

If they develop the addon as a two part system where one part is an in-game addon and the other part is a 'data tool' that creates and updates the data used by the addon then it would be very easy to charge for data updates but not the addon. WoWEcon does something similar to this already.

There are clear business precedents for charging for the data that works with a free tool. It's the data that takes time and effort to create compared to the tool.

Thus Questhelper could charge to download the quest data, WoWEcon could charge for subscription access to their data, etc, while still falling just within the rules.

Edit: Just wanted to add that I'm very happy with the 'no ads in game' rule, I really like it that Blizzard actually try to enforce the RPG aspect of their MMO, as a long time roleplayer I really hate stuff that breaks immersion, and ads from addons would piss me off no end. The data part was thought of by Blizzard (emphasis mine).

1) Add-ons must be free of charge.
All add-ons must be distributed free of charge. Developers may not create "premium" versions of add-ons with additional for-pay features, charge money to download an add-on, charge for services related to the add-on, or otherwise require some form of monetary compensation to download or access an add-on. While I whole heartedly agree with no ads in game - I also don't see any problem with an addon asking the user for donations to the author. If this offends you or breaks your immersion so much - simply don't use the addon - once again it is your choice as the consumer which products to use. Blizzard has taken that choice away.


Please provide a source for your claim that the Blizzard UI and it's APIs are free. Lua is free under the MIT license. ('http://www.lua.org/about.html') It can be used for any purpose, including commercial purposes, at absolutely no cost.

The Blizzard API's are documented and published for the end users to utilize. I don't need to source this as if it were not true, no UI mods would work and this discussion would be completely moot. The Blizzard UI as it natively exists is copyrighted.

That said - the works created by authors are theirs - they may be written to leverage an outside tool - but the work belongs to the author and the author can do as he wishes with said work. The work isn't DERIVED from anything Blizzard has done - it may INTERACT with it, but it's not derived. For that matter an author could quite easily write a UI mod without ever running WoW.

To clarify what offends me -
Section 1 of the new policy is simply anti-competitive and well beyond the scope of what any company has power to dictate. It will hurt the community in the long run - fuck it's already hurt the community as members such as Cogwheel have already pulled up camp and left.

Section 5 goes overboard - if they wanted to stop advertisements such as what Carbonites free version was doing they should have specified - but there is no harm at all in asking for donations for your UI mod or having a link on your configurations page to take you to a donations page.

The rest is great, I think the clear text rule would certainly limit commercial mods - but RDX was cleartext and many users subscribed to it for months. Carbonite is obfuscated, I've unwrapped that package and it's not rocket science to work your way around the obfuscation (it is a royal pain in the ass, but not rocket science at all.)

[BW~Merlin]

Just a point of clarification for some people. You (the addon author) are still free to license your addon how ever you want ie. all rights reserved, BSD, freeware etc. Blizzard is in no way making you make your addon open source all they are is making you do is show your source code (think of a book you read, you are reading the "source" code but you can not copy the "source" code because the licensing say you can't without permission or referencing the work etc).

[Caspian]

Section 1 of the new policy is simply anti-competitive and well beyond the scope of what any company has power to dictate. It will hurt the community in the long run - fuck it's already hurt the community as members such as Cogwheel have already pulled up camp and left. There is actually a very large precedence for exactly this, actually taken even a step further. Microsoft would sell Windows to a computer manufacturer to install on the computers they built and sold to the end users. As a computer manufacturer you could also purchase access to Windows APIs and developer kits. You could then make improvements to Windows as you saw fit. However, you were REQUIRED to provide those changes back to Microsoft at no cost. You were also not allowed to charge your customers extra for those improvements you made. In early versions of Windows, large portions of the core technology were not written by Microsoft at all. They were written by engineers at places like Compaq and HP who had to give them to Microsoft, who then gave them to their competitors like Dell and Gateway that did not have internal development teams.

So using Microsoft as an example for anything related to fair business practices or as a way licenses software is not really the best example.

Would it be considered an Advertisement to put a link to the developer's website for "the latest news updates" about their addon? Then put a big ass donation button on that page.

[BW~Merlin]

Would it be considered an Advertisement to put a link to the developer's website for "the latest news updates" about their addon? Then put a big ass donation button on that page.
I would think not as the policy says no goods or donation ads in game nothing about checking out the dev site for news, update and support. And yes you can have as many flashy ads on your website as you like.

[Caspian]

Would it be considered an Advertisement to put a link to the developer's website for "the latest news updates" about their addon? Then put a big ass donation button on that page.
I would think not as the policy says no goods or donation ads in game nothing about checking out the dev site for news, update and support. And yes you can have as many flashy ads on your website as you like.Well there we go, we just found a work around.

[wolpak]

This reminds me of the video game crash of 83 and Nintendo. Atari allowed anyone to develop any game on their system and the garbage out there destroyed Atari (for various reasons). Nintendo came in, put the clamps on and said, you can only sell Nintendo lisenced games. If it doen't have our stamp of approval, then TS.

I think the best solution is to do what Nintendo did. Blizzard should require that all add-ons have the Blizzard approval or they cannot be used in game and they should offer them all on a Blizzard website. There you can access free addons or pay ones. Blizzard takes like 1 dollar out and the rest goes to the game developer. That way Blizzard has full control over the add-ons, the developers get their cut and the end users don't get screwed by messing around with broken add-ons and they can pay for the premium ones.

I have as much of a problem with big companies squeezing every last penny out as much as the next guy, but they do own the software and if it didn't exist, then add-ons wouldn't exist for it either. They should have absolute right to determine what add-ons are usable and not.

[Suvega]

God I love the duplicity in this thread. People spout ZOMG OPEN-SOURCE FTW every day on these forums.

Once people pretty much mandate an open-source type methodolgy (Kinda, I mean the end effect is pretty much the same, free to everyone, non-obfuscated code, with the extension of not allowing people to charge for support or spam for donations). People go bat-shit crazy.

The addon market was interesting, albeit hard to impossible to enforce. (Carbonite probably could be easily cracked, the code is all in plaintext).

Blizzard owns a game, and has licensing rights for people to supply 3rd party additions to the game. It is their right, no matter what you asshats say, to dictate the licensing rights.

They made a stand that they want people to only have to pay for the game, and if anyone wants to go out of their way in their spare time to make an addon go ahead. People should NOT try to make a business off of addons.

[zanthor]

God I love the duplicity in this thread. People spout ZOMG OPEN-SOURCE FTW every day on these forums. I don't see the duplicity, I for one support both OS and Commercial software - both have their place in the world and both drive the other to be better. An OS project will die if it sucks and a solid Commercial application exists - and a commercial app would go out of business if it didn't race to stay one ahead of the OS competition.
(Carbonite probably could be easily cracked, the code is all in plaintext).Yes it is all plain text - and it's all quite well obfuscated.

[Caspian]

(Carbonite probably could be easily cracked, the code is all in plaintext).


That was the issue, it is not in plain text. It is complied LUA with some extra stuff done to it. None of the standard decompilers could decompile it, I know I tried.

[zanthor]

(Carbonite probably could be easily cracked, the code is all in plaintext).


That was the issue, it is not in plain text. It is complied LUA with some extra stuff done to it. None of the standard decompilers could decompile it, I know I tried.Not compiled - that is why no decompilers could touch it. [Edit: sounded insulting, wasn't meaning to be.] The entire thing was a string rolled into an xor function that garbaged it up quite nicely, the code for said xor function is at the end of the horrendous block of text...

Once you get past that you have obfuscated functions like fornextforwtf() and forfor() and shit like that.

Such as...


t={}
s,u,x=strbyte,strchar,bit.bxor
for n=1,(#z-1)/8 do
local a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i=s(z,n*8-7,n*8+1)
t[n]=u(x(a,b),x(b,c),x(c,d),x(d,e),x(e,f),x(f,g),x(g,h ),x(h,i))
end

[Suvega]

Anyways off that lil tangent... Requoting myself to emphasize the important bit...



Blizzard owns a game, and has licensing rights for people to supply 3rd party additions to the game. It is their right, no matter what you asshats say, to dictate the licensing rights.

They made a stand that they want people to only have to pay for the game, and if anyone wants to go out of their way in their spare time to make an addon go ahead. People should NOT try to make a business off of addons.

Just because the method for creating the 3rd party additions is using a public language (LUA), doesn't mean that it isn't a licensed 3rd party addition to a proprietary game.
Guess what, C / C++ / Java / Etc are all public domain languages, but that doesn't mean anything against the legal implications of licensing.

[Caspian]

Not taken as being insulting, no worries :D. Now I have to dig more.


t={} s,u,x=strbyte,strchar,bit.bxor for n=1,(#z-1)/8 do local a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i=s(z,n*8-7,n*8+1)t[n]=u(x(a,b),x(b,c),x(c,d),x(d,e),x(e,f),x(f,g)
,x(g,h),x(h,i))end loadstring(table.concat(t))()z='was just about the only things I pulled out with a unix strings

let me take a peek now, thanks

[zanthor]

Not taken as being insulting, no worries :D. Now I have to dig more.





t={} s,u,x=strbyte,strchar,bit.bxor for n=1,(#z-1)/8 do local a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i=s(z,n*8-7,n*8+1)t[n]=u(x(a,b),x(b,c),x(c,d),x(d,e),x(e,f),x(f,g)
,x(g,h),x(h,i))end loadstring(table.concat(t))()z='was just about the only things I pulled out with a unix strings

let me take a peek now, thanksIf you take a look the whole thing starts with z='{garbage for miles}' then one of these xor functions to decode and a loadstring to make the new code.

If you crank down into that another level you'll find the highly obfuscated code with the forforifthen type functions and even more xor encoded crap later on... after finding the 3rd layer to the onion I quit hacking at it.

Oh, and they did something that really fucks with my editor unless I put word wrap on, then it behaves ok... If I recall correctly there are also some non-printable characters encoded (like backspaces and such) to make it even more fun to unwrap by hand.

[Caspian]

Not taken as being insulting, no worries :D. Now I have to dig more.






t={} s,u,x=strbyte,strchar,bit.bxor for n=1,(#z-1)/8 do local a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i=s(z,n*8-7,n*8+1)t[n]=u(x(a,b),x(b,c),x(c,d),x(d,e),x(e,f),x(f,g)
,x(g,h),x(h,i))end loadstring(table.concat(t))()z='was just about the only things I pulled out with a unix strings

let me take a peek now, thanksIf you take a look the whole thing starts with z='{garbage for miles}' then one of these xor functions to decode and a loadstring to make the new code.

If you crank down into that another level you'll find the highly obfuscated code with the forforifthen type functions and even more xor encoded crap later on... after finding the 3rd layer to the onion I quit hacking at it.

Oh, and they did something that really fucks with my editor unless I put word wrap on, then it behaves ok... If I recall correctly there are also some non-printable characters encoded (like backspaces and such) to make it even more fun to unwrap by hand.that is control characters so if you cat or more or less (unix of course) it wacks your terminal. echo ^v^o saves me.

[Souca]

Quoted
Please provide a source for your claim that the Blizzard UI and it's APIs are free.

Lua is free under the MIT license. It can be used for any purpose, including commercial purposes, at absolutely no cost.

The Blizzard API's are documented and published for the end users to utilize. I don't need to source this as if it were not true, no UI mods would work and this discussion would be completely moot. The Blizzard UI as it natively exists is copyrighted.I never disputed the status of Lua. It's not relevant to my point. If you want to argue my points, you need to stop dragging unrelated things into your argument in an attempt to prove me wrong.

Documentation and publication do not grant any license to the API within the game. The reason there are addons in the game is that Blizzard currently allows them but you don't have any right beyond what they allow you to do. Unless you have a contract or a license stating you have anything more than that, you are confusing lack of prevention with permission. Not locking a door may let someone into your house, but it doesn't give them a right to enter.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/eula.html

Here is the first two lines of the of the EULA (emphasis mine)
THIS SOFTWARE IS LICENSED, NOT SOLD. BY INSTALLING, COPYING OR OTHERWISE USING THE GAME (DEFINED BELOW), YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT, YOU ARE NOT PERMITTED TO INSTALL, COPY OR USE THE GAME. Section 2.c (emphasis mine)

You agree that you will not, under any circumstances:

C. exploit the Game or any of its parts, including without limitation the Game Client, for any commercial purpose, including without limitation (a) use at a cyber cafe, computer gaming center or any other location-based site without the express written consent of Blizzard; (b) for gathering in-game currency, items or resources for sale outside the Game; or (c) performing in-game services in exchange for payment outside the Game, e.g., power-leveling; You've never been allowed to charge for addons, they're just making their stance clear now.

Section 4.a (emphasis mine)
All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to the Game and all copies thereof (including without limitation any titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialog, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, character inventories, structural or landscape designs, animations, sounds, musical compositions and recordings, audio-visual effects, storylines, character likenesses, methods of operation, moral rights, and any related documentation) are owned or licensed by Blizzard. The API is not free. It never has been. It is owned and licensed by Blizzard. End of story.




Blizzard owns a game, and has licensing rights for people to supply 3rd party additions to the game. It is their right, no matter what you asshats say, to dictate the licensing rights.

They made a stand that they want people to only have to pay for the game, and if anyone wants to go out of their way in their spare time to make an addon go ahead. People should NOT try to make a business off of addons. Amen! There are a good deal of people that think the Addon APIs are "free as in beer", but don't realize that there are licensing terms. Yes, you own your addon code, but that doesn't mean you have any rights to run it inside WoW beyond the ones Blizzard grants you.


Just because the method for creating the 3rd party additions is using a public language (LUA), doesn't mean that it isn't a licensed 3rd party addition to a proprietary game.
Guess what, C / C++ / Java / Etc are all public domain languages, but that doesn't mean anything against the legal implications of licensing. Requoting you since you have it right and people need to read this.

Now if you want to discuss whether Blizzard should have the legal rights they do, then you want to discuss IP law, but it doesn't change the current situation.


- Souca -

[Ualaa]

Take an addon such as Quest Helper.

Let's assume the author decides to quit his day job and solely develop this addon as his source of livelihood.
Assume he values his time to be worth "xx/hr" and his living expenses to be "Y".
He adds the "xx/hr" value to the "Y" value and comes up with his cost per month to live and develop the addon "Z".

Now he creates a link on his website for download of the addon.
The link opens a window, where you can choose to donate to paypal, but are not obligated to do so at all.
It also has a window for email notification.

Once optional donations total "Z" or more, everyone who chose to receive notification is given the download link.
At which point you can download the addon.
Until the amount agreed to be donated reaches "Z" no one is actually charged.

I'm not arguing this would work, but asking if this was the model used, what would Blizzard's response be?
Basically, its free and not charged for, but if completely optional donations are not sufficient, it is not offered.
Still not charged for.

[Souca]

Let's assume the author decides to quit his day job and solely develop this addon as his source of livelihood.

Then he has made a huge mistake. I know you are trying to provide a method to allow people to get past the whole "no charging for addons", but the belief that you can legally make money by developing addons for WoW is a fallacy. The EULA prohibits profiting from WoW , so unless you negotiate something with Blizzard beyond the standard terms of the EULA, you have no right to sell your addon for use in the game.

You have never been able to profit from addons. While everyone is bemoaning how developers like Carbonite have lost a revenue stream, you should really be thinking how lucky they are that they haven't faced legal action from Blizzard for any sales. Blizzard could have sued them and been well within their rights, but instead they stopped it before things grew. Feel free to think I'm apologizing for Blizzard, but Carbonite never had any legal right to charge for their addon.

- Souca -

[Sam DeathWalker]

Blizzard could have sued them and been well within their rights

Thats far from settled, we have to see how the Courts deal with the situation.

Blizzard has the right to profit from their work.

Don't you also have the right to profit from YOUR work?

I notice WoW has Orcs. There were no Orcs before JRRT....


Which book was cited "greatest of the century" in several British polls? Which first two films of a trilogy grossed more than $1.8 billion worldwide? What author sold at least 100 million books -- 11 million in the United States alone last year -- and also wrote what has been called "the world's most popular work of fiction"?


If you're thinking Ulysses, Star Wars, or J. K. Rowling, think again. The answer to all three is John Ronald Reuel Tolkien and his much beloved, misunderstood, and now massively marketed The Lord of the Rings.

Blizzard themselves are profiting from the work of others, legal or not, by tapping a 100 million person potential market.

[Souca]

Blizzard could have sued them and been well within their rights

Thats far from settled, we have to see how the Courts deal with the situation.


The court case you are likely referring to is not relevant to this. Read the EULA I referenced. That's enough to prevent this. Next.



Blizzard has the right to profit from their work.

Don't you also have the right to profit from YOUR work?


I don't have the right to violate Blizzards rights. I was never given the right to profit from addons, in fact the licensing terms expressly prohibit it. Being ignorant of the license doesn't let me ignore the terms of the license. By creating my work in violation of the terms of the license I've left myself at the mercy of Blizzard. So no, in this case I have no right to profit from my work.



I notice WoW has Orcs. There were no Orcs before JRRT....


Check your sources. You are wrong. By Tolkien's admission Orc's derived from Beowulf.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(Middle-earth)#Tolkien.27s_influences ('http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(Middle-earth)#Tolkien.27s_influences'):



Orc is from Old English orcneas, which appears in the epic poem Beowulf and refers to one of the races who are called the offspring of Cain during the initial description of Grendel ("Þanon untydras ealle onwocon,/eotenas ond ylfe, ond orcneas," ll. 111-112). In a letter of 1954 Tolkien gave orc as "demon" and claimed he used the word because of its "phonetic suitability" - its similarity to various equivalent terms in his Middle-earth languages.[1] In an essay on Elven languages, written in 1954, Tolkien gives meaning of 'orc' as "evil spirit or bogey" and goes on to state that the origin of the Old English word is the Latin name Orcus — god of the underworld.[2]


Next.





Which book was cited "greatest of the century" in several British polls? Which first two films of a trilogy grossed more than $1.8 billion worldwide? What author sold at least 100 million books -- 11 million in the United States alone last year -- and also wrote what has been called "the world's most popular work of fiction"?


If you're thinking Ulysses, Star Wars, or J. K. Rowling, think again. The answer to all three is John Ronald Reuel Tolkien and his much beloved, misunderstood, and now massively marketed The Lord of the Rings.

Blizzard themselves are profiting from the work of others, legal or not, by tapping a 100 million person potential market.

The fact that Tolkien derived fiction makes lots of money isn't relevant; it has no bearing on license terms. Furthermore your attempt to imply that Blizzard is in violation of copyright laws from "profiting from the works of others" shows your lack of understanding how copyright laws work. Should I provide you with the legal tests used to determine if a work is considered derived, or merely inspired?

The "100 million person potential market", what's that about? People like fantasy so the rules are different? Would it matter if it was a market 100 billion or just 10? It's irrelevant either way; stop attempting to sway people with emotion and "big numbers". Please use facts.

- Souca -

[Sam DeathWalker]

As your above quote verifies the word "orc" did not exist before tolkien. WoW uses the word "orc" not "orcneas". I understand that Blizzard is not in legal violation of copyright laws, yet they are stealing from Tolkiens work (legally). Blizzard added work to Tolkiens work, as well as 1000's of others, purposly taking advantage of a large built in audience. They really have little moral standing as to claiming others are ripping off their "original" work. You are not going to suggest that WoW does not use ideas first seen in EQ or fantasy characters used extensivly in other works for years before Blizzard was even a company.


There has been no real test of the EULA. Ya some have been upheld by Courts in the past, but not to a stright up challenge to their legality. There is no signature nor even a digital signature involved. Plus there are other avenues of attack as well.



licensing terms expressly prohibit it

As a Landlord I could make a contract stating that you cannot complain about poor conditions. Such contract would be tossed out by the Courts as unenforceable. Merely putting words on a peice of paper dosn't make it law. As I say the whole issue is far far from settled.


So your point is that people don't actually own their characters, regardless of the work they put into creating them?

[Bigfish]

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc, the usage of "orc" was observed before Token popularized it.

Of course, that doesn't change the fact that orcs in warcraft were apparently derived from the ones in warhammmer, (noting the green skin and oversized, fanged mandible) which were derived from Gary Gigax's use of them in Chainmail/DnD, which were inspired from Lord of the Rings, which was taken from various old fairy tales and legends, etc.

Of course, my only concern is why Orcs in game are always hunched over when they are previously depicted as standing straight. Did the whole population suddenly get Scoliosis?

[Souca]

As your above quote verifies the word "orc" did not exist before tolkien. WoW uses the word "orc" not "orcneas". I understand that Blizzard is not in legal violation of copyright laws, yet they are stealing from Tolkiens work (legally). Blizzard added work to Tolkiens work, as well as 1000's of others, purposly taking advantage of a large built in audience. They really have little moral standing as to claiming others are ripping off their "original" work. You are not going to suggest that WoW does not use ideas first seen in EQ or fantasy characters used extensivly in other works for years before Blizzard was even a company.


We don't say "thee" anymore either. Tolkien was a linguist, he advanced the language. Words can be trademarked, not copyrighted. Using words like "stealing" is an attempt make an emotional point, please stick to law and logic. You disputed Blizzard's legal rights based on Tolkien work having precident, yet now you admit they did nothing illegal; what are you trying to prove here?

They aren't taking a "moral stand" on other ripping their work off. You are implying that is the basis for what they are doing. I stated they had the legal right to do so. Once again you turn to morals in an attempt to make an emotional argument. I'm making a legal argument which you challenged, not an ethical or moral one.

Additionally you continue to argue based on the content in terms of story. The heart of the issue is the API. Did Tolkien invent the Blizzard UI and API? How are Orcs relevant to people violating a licensing agreement by charging for use of a work based on said API?

I'm suggesting nothing about the source or inspiration of Blizzard story or fantasy world. You brought it up. I merely pointed out a factual error you made regarding the origin of Orcs.



There has been no real test of the EULA. Ya some have been upheld by Courts in the past, but not to a stright up challenge to their legality. There is no signature nor even a digital signature involved. Plus there are other avenues of attack as well.


There doesn't have to be a challenge for a EULA to be enforceable. Just because something hasn't been tested in court doesn't give you the right to ignore it. Until law is overturned or interpreted by the courts it's still law. Even if you don't like it.

What are you referring to with signatures? Other avenues of attack? I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Would you mind clarifying for me?





licensing terms expressly prohibit it

As a Landlord I could make a contract stating that you cannot complain about poor conditions. Such contract would be tossed out by the Courts as unenforceable. Merely putting words on a peice of paper dosn't make it law. As I say the whole issue is far far from settled.


No, you can't. There are laws that dictate tenant rights. There are also laws that dictate contract law. There is no court decision that invalidates the EULA so it stands. Your insistence that a contract or law must be tested by the courts before it is valid is wrong.




So your point is that people don't actuall own their characters, regardless of the work they put into creating them?

I never stated that. However, according to the terms of the license you agreed to when you install the game and the license you agree to when you log on to the online service, you are correct. You do not own your characters. Period. You accepted those terms voluntarily; there was no duress. It's a valid contract.

- Souca -

[Talamarr]

so your point is that people don't actually own their characters, regardless of the work they put into creating them?

You do NOT own your character. You're paying for access to Blizzard's services, not to purchase a toon. I think that's crap but that's the way it is.

[Sam DeathWalker]

There doesn't have to be a challenge for a EULA to be enforceable. Just because something hasn't been tested in court doesn't give you the right to ignore it. Until law is overturned or interpreted by the courts it's still law. Even if you don't like it.

The only place you can "enfoce" it is in Court. ....

Look up "contract of adhesion", thats one possible way to attack the EULA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_form_contract

And general contract law requires a signature. If I state that if you reply to this post you owe me $1,000,000 and that your act of replying to this post constitutes a legal contratual obligation would that hold up in Court. Doubtfull as you never signed a contract to prove you agreed to its terms. Makeing actions into contratual agreements well lol ....

Notice adult web sites are now required digital signatures to veryify age. If simply agreeing that "I am over 18" by clicking on the web site access button was a legal contratual obligation then there would be no need for digital signatures then would there?

http://www.abanet.org/scitech/ec/isc/dsg-tutorial.html

See, e.g., U.C.C. § 3-401 (1990) (a person is not liable on an instrument unless the person signed it); see generally U.C.C. § 3-104 (1990) (requirements for negotiability).



If MDY wins in the Court of Appeals its going to make it a lot harder for Blizzard to make claims against addon providers who sell their product. Lets not forget its Blizzard that allows the end users to use the API calls used in the add ons.

[Talamarr]

The bigger issue is a legal system still in the stone age on the nuances of technology, digital rights and online media. The case against [the application that shall not be named] only proves it with the whole "it copies the game into RAM and therefore it's illegal" argument.

[Sam DeathWalker]

Shrink wrap contracts
Courts in the United States have faced the issue of shrink wrap contracts in two ways. One line of cases follows ProCD v. Zeidenberg which held such contracts enforceable (eg. Brower v Gateway [4]) and the other follows Klocek v. Gateway, Inc which found them unenforceable (eg. Specht v. Netscape Communications Corp. [5]). These decisions are split on the question of consent, with the former holding that only objective manifestation of consent is required while the latter require at least the possibility of subjective consent.

As you can see courts are split as to whether shrink wrap contracts are enforceable. EULA is the same thing basically.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clickwrap_license

Except for the 2nd and 7th Circuit all these cases upholding the clickwrap (thats what the EULA is) are low courts with no value. Thus only the 2nd and 7th Circuit is where it is law that ELUA is enfoceable, its a open question everwhere else in the United States.

[Sam DeathWalker]

The OP was about Blizards new policy of prohibiting addon makers from charging for their work.

Please notice the title of the Thread: "Addons free from now on, per Blizzard"

The OP wondered if it was also applicable to 3rd Party Products, such as Keyclone.

To determine if Blizzard has the right to prohibit addon makers (and thus possibly 3rd party software people like Keyclone) from charging for their work one has to look at the EULA.

To determine if the EULA is a legal contract one has to look at contract law.

[Gurblash]

Gotta love arm chair lawyers...

[Gurblash]

Seriously? Do you not realize this? Sadly... probably not.

[Sam DeathWalker]

Obviously that is the case.

Are you saying that Blizzard cannot legally prohibit users from using Keyclone because it can be used for other purposes because
Keyclone is a stand alone product that is in no way related to WoW or Blizzard or ANY game?

[Gurblash]

THAT has NOTHING to do with the OP...

Blizzard has no right to NOT ALLOW Keyclone to charge for his service.

D-B.com could make some serious money off Blood Pressure Pill adverts on the site. Coming here and reading utter stupidity is enough to put my blood pressure through the roof.

[Duese]

Can we fastforward 2 weeks when this whole topic is forgotten about by generally everyone?

This is just Blizzard's lawyers re-writing their CYA paperwork. The poster above was correct in saying that it's been technically against the Eula/ToS even before this ruling. This is just rewording it to make it more clear and explicit.

Do I agree with it? Not in the slightest. It's just making Blizzard look more elitist.
Do I think that anything much will come out of it? Probably not.

To say that it's wrong to make money off of WoW is just ignorant. Keyclone makes money off of WoW. This website and many others make money off of WoW (to varying amounts through advertisements or donations). WoWhead and other websites make money off of WoW (go figure).

None of this change "currently" effects me and depending on how much they enforce it, may never affect me or the majority of the population. Especially if Blizzard only uses it as a trump card sometime down the road when some addon or specific 3rd party program comes out that starts making decent profits off it (ala WoWGlider reporting 1.5 million in revenue).

Who cares about obfuscated code? Seriously, if you are digging through the code for fun, then good for you but that's your perogative. If you are searching for big bad viruses or naughty code trying to be the e-police, then WHY ARE YOU DOWNLOADING CODE FROM UNTRUSTED SITES!? (Caps lock used for emphasis, not cool factor) If you don't trust the site enough that you have to investigate the code, then your probably getting into something you shouldn't. Again, I don't bother wasting my time looking at the code behind the programs that I download from trusted sites and I don't download addons from untrusted sites. If I want to stare at code, I'll stare at my MB scripts.

And stop bringing up who invented Orcs as an argument. Everyone knows that Jesus invented Orcs way before anyone. He also invented Gnomes too, when he was drunk of course. :)

Edit:

Are you saying that Blizzard cannot legally prohibit users from using Keyclone because it can be used for other purposes because

Quoted
Keyclone is a stand alone product that is in no way related to WoW or Blizzard or ANY game

?

The way things are right now, no they cannot. If you want to get into the "Sky is falling" thought process, the only way that Blizzard could go after KeyClone Legally would be if Blizzard revised their Eula/ToS to make using key replicating software against the rules, changed warden to detect KeyClone and other key replication programs, and THEN having KeyClone modify the program specifically to evade detection by Warden. THEN, blizzard MIGHT have a case against KeyClone. Even then, it's only breaking one of the many arguments that went against MDY in that case.

[Sam DeathWalker]

Blizzard has no right to NOT ALLOW Keyclone to charge for his service.

Well thats settles that. Sorry if I misunderstood, I thought it was possible to make some kind of crazy argument that Blizzard could prohibit its users from using Keyclone (unless Keyclone was free) but as you say they can't then clearly they can't.

[kadaan]

Blizzard has no right to NOT ALLOW Keyclone to charge for his service. Well thats settles that. Sorry if I misunderstood, I thought it was possible to make some kind of crazy argument that Blizzard could prohibit its users from using Keyclone (unless Keyclone was free) but as you say they can't then clearly they can't.Yeah, I think you were arguing about KeyClone and Souca is arguing about addons.

Charging for KeyClone = OK
Charging for Addons = NOT OK

[Sam DeathWalker]

Well Fur, I happen to be on your side of this argument, but others have stated in this thread that Blizzard can do whatever they want as you entered into a binding contract as to their EULA when you log into the game.

Well its Souca's move.

[Gurblash]

Keyclone makes money off of WoW.

WoW also makes money off of Keyclone. Every time a new user gets Keyclone, they are getting more accounts as well.

Blizzard is already getting money from a person paying for carbonite, thus getting nothing more in return.

[Sam DeathWalker]

Blizzard is already getting money from a person paying for carbonite, thus getting nothing more in return.

It moves people to the high end game faster and hooks them on the game better (they are less likely to quit if they have a higher level character).

[Duese]

WoW also makes money off of Keyclone. Every time a new user gets Keyclone, they are getting more accounts as well.

Blizzard is already getting money from a person paying for carbonite, thus getting nothing more in return.

True. Blizzard was also making money off MDY's program too.

omg Fur don't smite me! I was just making a little point!

And KeyClone != <Botting Program>


It moves people to the high end game faster and hooks them on the game better (they are less likely to quit if they have a higher level character).

Or makes them get bored because they've already done everything, so they quit.

[Vyndree]

Shrink wrap contracts
Courts in the United States have faced the issue of shrink wrap contracts in two ways. One line of cases follows ProCD v. Zeidenberg which held such contracts enforceable (eg. Brower v Gateway [4]) and the other follows Klocek v. Gateway, Inc which found them unenforceable (eg. Specht v. Netscape Communications Corp. [5]). These decisions are split on the question of consent, with the former holding that only objective manifestation of consent is required while the latter require at least the possibility of subjective consent.

As you can see courts are split as to whether shrink wrap contracts are enforceable. EULA is the same thing basically.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clickwrap_license

Except for the 2nd and 7th Circuit all these cases upholding the clickwrap (thats what the EULA is) are low courts with no value. Thus only the 2nd and 7th Circuit is where it is law that ELUA is enfoceable, its a open question everwhere else in the United States.

I know I've had to quote this once before when people claimed that "they didn't agree to the in-box EULA/ToU so they're absolved of following it". Probably not the same thing you're arguing, but the quotes are appropriate:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/termsofuse.html

YOU SHOULD CAREFULLY READ THE FOLLOWING WORLD OF WARCRAFT TERMS OF USE AGREEMENT (THE "TERMS OF USE" OR "AGREEMENT"). IF YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH ALL OF THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT, YOU MUST CLICK "REJECT." IF YOU REJECT THIS AGREEMENT WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS AFTER FIRST PURCHASING A LICENSE TO THE WORLD OF WARCRAFT SOFTWARE, YOU MAY CALL (800)757-7707 TO REQUEST A FULL REFUND OF THE PURCHASE PRICE. ONCE YOU AGREE TO THE TERMS OF USE AND THE END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT, YOU WILL NO LONGER BE ELIGIBLE FOR A REFUND.

Just because you purchase the EULA encased within the shrinkwrapped product does not mean you automagically sign yourself into the contract. You can still reject the contract and receive a full, 100% refund. So it's still your choice to accept or reject the terms.

[Gurblash]

Blizzard is already getting money from a person paying for carbonite, thus getting nothing more in return.

It moves people to the high end game faster and hooks them on the game better (they are less likely to quit if they have a higher level character).Eh that's a fairly subjective, and shallow, statement. Carbonite doesn't make everyone lvl faster. And it certainly doesn't do much for them once they are at end game.

[Sam DeathWalker]

Well umm maybe 5 percent faster or less ... Sure helped me level faster as I am new to the game.

I dont see how you run out of things to do; there is PvP once you have beaten all the PvE ...



So it's still your choice to accept or reject the terms Ya thats a clickwrap what Blizzard is using. As you say you have to accept or reject the terms, you cannot modify them or bargain at all. Thats why its a contract of adhesion.

[Souca]

Lets not forget its Blizzard that allows the end users to use the API calls used in the add ons. Thank you for agreeing with me. Despite all your arguments on topics of everything but the point, in the end you state my point all along. Blizzard is the one that grants use of the API. They own it, therefore they can dictate it's use. If they had no legal hold over it, then they couldn't allow end users to use it anymore than I could allow someone to live in your house.

- Souca -

[Souca]

Well Fur, I happen to be on your side of this argument, but others have stated in this thread that Blizzard can do whatever they want as you entered into a binding contract as to their EULA when you log into the game.

Well its Souca's move.LOL.

I'm sorry, but I just can't take you seriously anymore Sam. If you honestly think I was arguing Blizzard can do anything they want because of an EULA then it won't matter what I say since you seem come up with your own version of the posts to reply to. I cited my points, you chose to ignore them and claim victory in the end by redefining the argument so you were on the other side.

- Souca -

[Gurblash]

it won't matter what I say since you seem come up with your own version of the posts to reply to. I cited my points, you chose to ignore them and claim victory in the end by redefining the argument so you were on the other side.
This is what makes Sam the ULTIMATE Troll... He can't be beaten. No matter how much evidence you throw at him, he chooses to respond with something that typically makes no sense and thinks he wins. The longer we continue to respond to him the longer he will continue to troll here. Its time to start the campaign of "DON'T FEED THE TROLLS."

[Moorea]

I think it's totally conceivable that Blizz would extend the "must be free" to any software addition; not just in game; and while we may not like it; software like keyclone does interact with the game by sending 1 key to multiple windows; etc... which isn't "normal" behavior of any PC - so Blizzard could well prohibit it whenever they want or put constraints that it should be free - I think the argument "anyone who based their business on charging for addon is a fool" next to "but keyclone is totally not the same" is not very consistant - my bet is 99.9% of keyclone licenses are used for multi boxing wow so it would a bit hard to make the case keyclone has nothing to do with wow...

[Jubber]

Except Keyclone is not specifically an ingame WoW addon. It works outside of WoW for other games just as well. Things like questhelper and carbonite work strictly for WoW. In the case of Carbonite, they were trying to make money off of WoW.
This is similiar to the argument of where are they gonna stop next, Vent? I don't agree with this particular argument. Vent works outside of wow for many platforms and games. There is no reason for them to forbid the use of said software. They were targeting addons that fit within their "addons" folders.

[Moorea]

Except Keyclone is not specifically an ingame WoW addon. It works outside of WoW for other games just as well. Things like questhelper and carbonite work strictly for WoW. In the case of Carbonite, they were trying to make money off of WoW.
This is similiar to the argument of where are they gonna stop next, Vent? I don't agree with this particular argument. Vent works outside of wow for many platforms and games. There is no reason for them to forbid the use of said software. They were targeting addons that fit within their "addons" folders.
Did you read any of my post ?

[Khatovar]

Well umm maybe 5 percent faster or less ... Sure helped me level faster as I am new to the game.

I dont see how you run out of things to do; there is PvP once you have beaten all the PvE ...

And that is no faster than the free addons like TomTom, Lightheaded, nQuestLog, Cartographer, etc.

Other than that *laughs*

[Souca]

Except Keyclone is not specifically an ingame WoW addon. It works outside of WoW for other games just as well. Things like questhelper and carbonite work strictly for WoW. In the case of Carbonite, they were trying to make money off of WoW.
This is similiar to the argument of where are they gonna stop next, Vent? I don't agree with this particular argument. Vent works outside of wow for many platforms and games. There is no reason for them to forbid the use of said software. They were targeting addons that fit within their "addons" folders.
Did you read any of my post ?I read them both. Keyclone does not make use of any Blizzard intellectual property and as such is not subject to their EULA.

Keyclone and addons are two separate animals, even if they both have fur and bark. Blizzard owns the APIs addons use; Rob owns Keyclone.

Before someone comes and states the theory that Blizzard would change the EULA to prohibit use of Keyclone on a persons computer system, consider that they take a much larger risk as they have no legal basis for doing so. If they want to stop multiboxing they have a much simpler method: change the EULA/TOS to prohibit more than one account per person. They could do that, it's their game and they can change access to it. Why risk diluting their position by attempting to extend the terms of the EULA beyond their intelectual property; they'd risk more than they'd gain.

TLDR: If Bobby wants to take their toys and go home, they can; they can't take your pet dog with them though. Interpret the metaphor however you want.

- Souca -

[Moorea]

Yes they could more directly prohibit mboxing - but if their intent is to "level the playing field" as it is claimed for add ons; that could apply to mboxing software - they could well say that mboxing is fine but you can't charge for the tools to do it - now it may be harder to defend, but I'm sure their lawyers budget is a bit bigger than keyclone's. Again I'm not saying it will happen or it's even remotely blizz's intention or in their interest - just that all the dismissive reactions are more like stuffing one's head in the sand than an actual argument - again Keyclone's usage is lot more comparable to Carbonite's than people want to admit.

[Caspian]

Yes they could more directly prohibit mboxing - but if their intent is to "level the playing field" as it is claimed for add ons; that could apply to mboxing software - they could well say that mboxing is fine but you can't charge for the tools to do it - now it may be harder to defend, but I'm sure their lawyers budget is a bit bigger than keyclone's. Again I'm not saying it will happen or it's even remotely blizz's intention or in their interest - just that all the dismissive reactions are more like stuffing one's head in the sand than an actual argument - again Keyclone's usage is lot more comparable to Carbonite's than people want to admit.

They are not even close. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

Keylone can use for:
WoW
LotR
Connan
EQ
notepad

Carbonite can use for:
WoW
removing free space from your HDD

Keyclose uses:
Rob magic

Carbonite uses:
Carbonite magic
WoW API

Blizzard saying that MB "tools" or software must be free is like them saying keyboard multiplexers must be free. Sounds pretty stupid doesn't it?

I have no idea how much money rob has made. I would be willing to wager that most of it has been from people playing WoW. His software still has pretty much ZERO to do with wow as far as blizzard is concerned. It is an unrealted topic.

Souca, I wish I knew you when I lived in Seattle - I would have loved to share a beer with you. Spot on dude, spot on.




yes it is past midnight local time, yes I had too much to drink. yes I have to go to work tomorrow err technically later today after I sleep some.

[Moorea]

Keep you head in the sand; it's warm in there :-)

[Zal]

Wow, how is this thread even still in discussion....
Keyclone: Clearly not illegal. If you think it is, don't use it / stop boxing

/thread

[Khatovar]

Carbonite can use for:
WoW
removing free space from your HDD

Keyclose uses:
Rob magic



I lol'd

[Los]

it won't matter what I say since you seem come up with your own version of the posts to reply to. I cited my points, you chose to ignore them and claim victory in the end by redefining the argument so you were on the other side.
This is what makes Sam the ULTIMATE Troll... He can't be beaten. No matter how much evidence you throw at him, he chooses to respond with something that typically makes no sense and thinks he wins. The longer we continue to respond to him the longer he will continue to troll here. Its time to start the campaign of "DON'T FEED THE TROLLS."Go to work gur! :thumbsup:

[RobinGBrown]

Best ad for carbonite ever:
Sure helped me level faster as I am new to the game.
21 days /played to level 45

p.s. Can we just assume that I've flamed Sam intolerably and get this thread locked please, it's gone the way of all deathwalker threads...

[Souca]

Keep you head in the sand; it's warm in there :-) It's how I stay grounded. It also has the nice benefit of protecting me from falling pieces of sky ;)

- Souca -

[Jubber]

Except Keyclone is not specifically an ingame WoW addon. It works outside of WoW for other games just as well. Things like questhelper and carbonite work strictly for WoW. In the case of Carbonite, they were trying to make money off of WoW.
This is similiar to the argument of where are they gonna stop next, Vent? I don't agree with this particular argument. Vent works outside of wow for many platforms and games. There is no reason for them to forbid the use of said software. They were targeting addons that fit within their "addons" folders.
Did you read any of my post ?
I did read your post. I just didn't agree. Which is why I wrote my post. Ingame, they have every right to do this. Out of game they have merits. If WoW turned off their game today, things like questhelper and carbonite would do nothing. Those addons would gain nothing. Keyclone would still be around. It still has a market. Keyclone works very well for WoW, but WoW isn't it's only use. This is why Keyclone will be ok.


I think it's totally conceivable that Blizz would extend the "must be free" to any software addition; not just in game;
"Would" is a strong term in this situation. "Could" is a more likely term but again at that point they would be stepping outside the boundaries of their intellectual property. Their game. Which is why I used the Vent argument. Sure at any given time they could say Vent is no longer allowed for use with WoW and program warden to search for it, but they can't stop Vent from charging for their services.

[Talamarr]

Yes they could more directly prohibit mboxing - but if their intent is to "level the playing field" as it is claimed for add ons; that could apply to mboxing software - they could well say that mboxing is fine but you can't charge for the tools to do it - now it may be harder to defend, but I'm sure their lawyers budget is a bit bigger than keyclone's. Again I'm not saying it will happen or it's even remotely blizz's intention or in their interest - just that all the dismissive reactions are more like stuffing one's head in the sand than an actual argument - again Keyclone's usage is lot more comparable to Carbonite's than people want to admit.

I agree with the other posters, this isn't even close to the same thing as an addon. By your same logic, hardware makers of KVM switches would have to give their stuff away for free or it couldn't be used for multi-boxing. That is just not realistic. It's not even on the radar. Blizzard would ban multi-boxing outright if it were to do anything like that.

[zanthor]

I think it all boils down to the wording of the policy.

Lets look at Blizzards official policy...

1) Add-ons must be free of charge.
All add-ons must be distributed free of charge. Developers may not create "premium" versions of add-ons with additional for-pay features, charge money to download an add-on, charge for services related to the add-on, or otherwise require some form of monetary compensation to download or access an add-on. So lets assume Blizzard decides that Linux really is the future and they don't want to support Windows or MacOS...

Now compare it to this made up crap...

1) Operating Systems must be free of charge.
All operating systems must be distributed free of charge. Developers may not create "premium" versions of operating systems with additional for-pay features, charge money to download an operating system, charge for services related to the operating system, or otherwise require some form of monetary compensation to download or access an operating system. Or lets take this to a hardware level...
1) Keyboards must be free of charge.
All keyboards must be distributed free of charge. Manufacturers may not create "extended" versions of keyboards with additional for-pay features, charge money to purchase a keyboard, charge for services related to the keyboard, or otherwise require some form of monetary compensation to aquire or access a keyboard. I'm certain every member of this community will say that the 2nd and 3rd are completely off base and Blizzard has no rights to dictate either of those.

Now on the other hand...
1) Add-ons must be free of charge.
All add-ons must be distributed free of charge. Players may not utilize "premium" versions of add-ons with additional for-pay features, charge money to download an add-on, charge for services related to the add-on, or otherwise require some form of monetary compensation to download or access an add-on. And compare it to this made up crap (point of view changed for ease of demonstration)...

1) Operating Systems must be Windows XP, Vista or Mac OS X.
All operating systems must be legally licensed copies of Windows XP, Vista or Mac OS X. Players may not utilize any other operating system to access the World of Warcraft Servers. Or lets take this to a hardware level...
1) Keyboards Policy.
All keyboards must be standard 101 key Keyboards with no extended functionality. Any extended features utilized with World of Warcraft will result in the account using the Keyboard being banned.
...

Blizzard has no rights to tell me as a developer I cannot write a bit of LUA code and sell it after I obfuscate it. I can drycode to my hearts content using API calls that are clearly documented on the web in any fashion I want. The moment I connect to blizzards server with my obfuscated code - I am in violation of their TOS and EULA and then they can ban me if they want - or more likely simply block the addon.

That version actually accomidates what they wish to achieve quite well without squashing the Addon Authors rights.

I know many of you will say it's the same thing - but it's not. If a serial killer is lynched by a mob, it's a felony crime, if the same serial killer is brought to trial, found guilty and executed by the state, it's capitol punishment. Both end the same way, but they are drastically different paths to the same conclusion.

[Taliesin]

I think it's totally conceivable that Blizz would extend the "must be free" to any software addition; not just in game;

They can try if they like, but I think you're missing the point of why they are enforcing this. They don't want people directly profitting from software that is specifically designed to exist because of WoW. It's part of their argument of why goldselling is not allowed (real money is being exchanged for their intellectual property).

Keyclone falls into the realm of OS and hardware multiplexing, not just a WoW plugin. Blizzard would now have to explain why Keyclone must be free, even though it has uses far beyond just playing their game. I agree with the earlier comment by Talamarr that it would be akin to Blizzard saying that KVMs (with keystroke broadcasting) must now be free or banned altogether. Also, why wouldn't keyboard extensions not be banned then too, since they are also specifically designed to earn money by improving gameplay?

The comparison between in-game quest addons and Keyclone is pretty remote. Unless Keyclone included features specifically designed to work only with WoW, they really can't claim that its a WoW-specific tool.

[Souca]

Blizzard has no rights to tell me as a developer I cannot write a bit of LUA code and sell it after I obfuscate it.No they don't. This isn't relevant so please stop bringing it up.

I can drycode to my hearts content using API calls that are clearly documented on the web in any fashion I want.This is dubious at best. You have no right to those APIs beyond what you are granted. How you get them is irrelevant. The only reason I'll give you dubious is that the APIs themselves may be hard to protect in the same way phrases and titles are. The fact that they are published doesn't change anything. In the end though this is irrelevant since this isn't what the statement or EULA are discussing.

The moment I connect to blizzards server with my obfuscated code - I am in violation of their TOS and EULA and then they can ban me if they want - or more likely simply block the addon.Yes. Also, the moment and user that has received your addon logons they may face the same actions.

That version actually accomidates what they wish to achieve quite well without squashing the Addon Authors rights. You keep refering to "Addon Author's rights" as if they are something other than a standard person's rights. The fact that they write an addon doesn't give them any special treatment. All that matters is that they have used the APIs (owned and licensed by Blizzard) in a manner in violation with the terms of the license. End of story. They have no rights as a "wow addon writer" beyond those Blizzard grants them. They still have the same rights as a person that doesn't write addons, but then again people don't have a right to violate license terms or contract law because they feel like it.

I know many of you will say it's the same thing - but it's not. If a serial killer is lynched by a mob, it's a felony crime, if the same serial killer is brought to trial, found guilty and executed by the state, it's capitol punishment. Both end the same way, but they are drastically different paths to the same conclusion. What, no Nazis or Hitler references? If you're gonna try and make this into an inaccurate emotional argument at least go big with it.

The EULA is, and has been, clear on the profit issue for a long time. Anyone who wrote an addon and didn't read the EULA has no one to blame but themselves for "their wasted tiem and effort" and no right "to be compensated for all their hard work". It's cut and dry.

As for Blizzard learning to goosestep and taking up the banner of National Socialism, everyone is free to their theories, but don't use it as justification as to why the issue at hand is wrong or invalid.

- Souca -

[zanthor]

Quoted from "zanthor"
Blizzard has no rights to tell me as a developer I cannot write a bit of LUA code and sell it after I obfuscate it.

No they don't. This isn't relevant so please stop bringing it up.So I see we agree, but you just don't realize it.

[Kayley]

lol, gj.

[Souca]

Quoted from "zanthor"
Blizzard has no rights to tell me as a developer I cannot write a bit of LUA code and sell it after I obfuscate it.

No they don't. This isn't relevant so please stop bringing it up.So I see we agree, but you just don't realize it.Yes, but no where in the above do you mention using the Blizzard API. You are welcome to write "Hello World" and sell it and Blizzard has no say. You keep trying to make generic statements that are true and then expect it to justify very specific statements, like those having to do with the Blizzard API. LUA has nothing to do with the discussion; writing code has nothing to do with the discussion.

I only responded to what you wrote.

Edit:

Further on I responded to the rest of your comments, but you decided to quote a small portion to look like you'd proven some point. I broke the end of your post up and responded to it line by line.

- Souca -

[dubiox]

It is pretty hard to take some of you seriously when you speak in such absolutes. For many of these issues there is an argument on either side. Repeatedly posting some conclusory statements does not make them the only possible interpretation, no matter how many times you do it.

-K

[Moorea]

It is pretty hard to take some of you seriously when you speak in such absolutes. For many of these issues there is an argument on either side. Repeatedly posting some conclusory statements does not make them the only possible interpretation, no matter how many times you do it.

-K

^THIS
(as this seems to be the new "qft")


ps: I think I used enough could / would /might / not necessarily what they would/should/... in my arguments to not qualify as "absolutes" - anyway - it hasn't happened yet - so so far there is indeed no change or no impact to Keyclone - yet if I was for instance an investor in Keyclone inc, I would sure want to see the stream of revenue diversify outside of Wow players... but that'd be my money.

[Souca]

It is pretty hard to take some of you seriously when you speak in such absolutes. For many of these issues there is an argument on either side. Repeatedly posting some conclusory statements does not make them the only possible interpretation, no matter how many times you do it.

-KI can see this. For me it's the opposite. I see so many broad statements based on nothing but speculation and it becomes hard for me to think there might be any truth in there. I repeat things when people continue to ignore them and claim things that are in direct opposition. I don't think the act of repeat something makes it truth, but I would hope that people with differing opinions would at least address my points with facts or substance. I love being proven wrong, it means I got to learn something. The caveat is that I need proof or at least a convincing argument.

If this wasn't aimed at me, I apologize. Kind of hard to tell since it doesn't reference anyone.

Oh, and I think there have been some very good point made in this thread. For the most part I respect everyone on DB.com.

- Souca -

[Sam DeathWalker]

Repeatedly posting some conclusory allegation does not make it true. - SDW '09

Stole yur quote, fixed it up a bit, and made it mine heheh.

Just to much speculation to really argue against any position in this thread at this point.

They have banned for sale add ons, will they go further, Ill wait and see and argue at that point.

Is the EULA legal? I'll see how the Courts handle the situation and argue then.



For many of these issues there is an argument on either side.
Very true words indeed but throughout my 55 years of experience I have found that the side I take more often then not has the highest probability of being correct over time.

[Souca]

Very true words indeed but throughout my 55 years of experience I have found that the side I take more often then not has the highest probability of being correct over time. Especially since you take a new side with every post. Sam truly is the greatest boxer ever. He actually boxes the forums. Each post operates independently of all his others. This way he can optimize his trolling and ignore any chance for reality to intrude upon his fantasy world.

Sam, you the exception to my previous post. I have no respect for you. It's a shame that you get coddled on the forums; you're the worst thing to happen to them.

* braces for ban hammer *

- Souca -

[Sam DeathWalker]

How did I take a new side?

My postion has been that the EULA is of questionable legality, thus limiting Blizzards ability to enforce policies based upon the EULA (and ToS), thus Blizzard can't ban people for using keyclone simply because he charges for it.

I belive, and feel free to correct me if I am wrong, that your postion is that the EULA is legal based upon the MDY case and thus Blizzard can ban any user that violates the EULA and thus ban any user that uses any program that is used with WoW, including keyclone, IF the EULA is changed to prohibit it because it charges a fee, IF they decide to do so in the future.

Using conclusory allegation, instead of citation to facts in support of yur statements, and claiming it is debate or argument is the worst thing to happen to forums.

And everyone who posts should understand that statements such as "I have no respect for you" etc. do little to advance any argument or position put forth by the poster. That fact that you have no respect for me means that Blizzard can or cannot ban Keyclone because he charges? I really don't see a connection.

[keyclone]

last i checked, my G15 software interacts with wow... and it wasn't free. should Blizzard be able to demand those keyboards to be free?

whether or not keyclone can be classified as an add-on is simple. run wow. click 'add-ons'. is keyclone in the list? no? then not an add-on.

wow add-ons are held within a certain folder in the wow folder hierarchy. they are written in LUA, an interpreted scripting language (wow uses a slightly tailored version of LUA). wow loads them from the drive... parses the code... then performs the actions specified within the add-on. this is not how keyclone works at all. wow.exe has no knowledge of keyclone and vice versa (the only knowledge of wow keyclone has is of the config file)

there is no wiggle room here. whether or not something is an add-on is black and white and not up for discussion. no matter how much you 'feel' it should be an add-on, it is not.

(just amazed this thread is still kicking... amazing)

--specifically noting that i am not wearing a mod hat--

as for people getting on Sam, that's just lame. he equates himself properly and does not attack anyone. please do the same.

--end of specific personal feelings--