The Human Virtue

[Starbuck_Jones]

The human virtue. Over the last while or so, I’ve put a few brain cells to work on some minor personal philosophy. I am sure none of it is original and someone more famous than me has put it on paper long before I was born, but I’m going to share anyway.
Americas culture; what is it? This is something that came up a week or two ago in a discussion. When I look at other cultures, I can point out and describe or show say a 4th grader what that culture is and what it’s about. You can look and point out something that is Japanese, or Italian, French, and Australian. But how would you describe the American culture to a 4th grader from America, or even another country? It kinda bugs me that I could describe another culture better than I could my own. I think that the USA has become so homogenized that there is no culture. If I absolutely had to pick something it would be warfare, we build and sell more weapons than anyone, got to war more and it’s all you see in the news. Being such a blend of cultures has its strong points that everyone gets to learn about as they go through school. But I think it has alienated us from the rest of the world as well as each other.

When I see groups of people who migrated to the US and they retain their culture it stands out. A lot of people don’t like this and that’s another debate for a different time (immigration legal or not). It saddens me to see that a virtue we say is important to us is only a two faced lie. Tolerance.


There are lists of virtues out there that you can look up, I personally like the 8 from the old Ultima games, the 3 theological virtues and 4 cardinal virtues are good examples as well. But it’s all a fairy tale. There is no happily ever after and I wonder what the world would be like when people stop living the lie. Im not trying to say that we should ignore virtues or stop trying to follow our own faiths and beliefs, so don’t take it that way. First is marriage, the whole mate for life thing is such a fraud. No animal on earth, humans included, “mate for life” or go into some sort of romantic mourning if the mate dies. It is a total fallacy. Yes I know there are examples out there of high school lovers growing old and dying together in their 90’s and stuff, but those one in a million exceptions are not the norm and im not going to argue about the 0.1% of things that are exceptions, I’m talking majority here. Now, most people at some point get married in their life time. Like 80-90% of us and depending on where you read anywhere from 30-60% of those end in a true divorce and I can’t find a reliable or consistent source for people who are still married, but separated and how many of these numbers are just the same people going through the motions again and again.

Anyway my point is, humans are not monogamous creatures. There seems to be some sort of fantasy that God or whatever will bring the right person along when the time is right. If you live in your parents’ basement, the only way a girl is showing up is if you pay one. Humans do the most evil things to each other on a daily basis. From war and murder, to psychological and physical abuse, there doesn’t seem to be any limit to it. People will come up with any excuse as well to inflict this pain on other people as well. I’m not firing you from your job, the company is. The new cyber bullying that’s been in the news a bit like people hating on others through myspace and other social networking avenues.

I just can’t seem to put my finger on it. It’s like there is this ugly foundation of lies and ignorance that we all walk around on and ignore. That most people we see and meet are just these fake shells that try to portray what they want other people to perceive them as. The sanctuaries are out there where people are real with each other, but they seem too few and far between.

[mmcookies]

Well, that all depends on how old are you?
(edit: nm it says you're 30 in your profile)

If you really want to be pessimistic about it, study a bit of world history, ancient and modern, and see how it's like a bad daytime soap opera -- different people, different places, different circumstances, same f'ing story, with the same f'ing "surprise ending that nobody could see coming."

Ask yourself whether you can honestly blame the individuals involved in each of these circumstances, or perhaps they're merely indicative of a systemic fault that humans are unable to escape from?

[sixzandsevenz]

Not too many people can take an honest look at humanity and see the truth that you see.

You'll appreciate this,

What's the difference between a Coal Miner and a Psychiatrist?

The Psychiatrist digs down deeper and comes up dirtier.

[heffner]

Of course Americans have a culture. Culture encompasses many things from religion to food to language. It's just a big country with many regional variations [which most countries have]. I am sure how you describe Japanese, Italian or X culture is the same way they describe Americans.

Also, there are definitely examples of animals mating for life. Monogamy isn't exclusive to humans. There are good reasons for this too, which I am sure you can figure out.

I would have to agree that there are a lot of selfish and greedy people out there, but I bet most are not. It's not like the world is in total anarchy.

[Moorea]

Wall of text crits moorea...

[shaeman]

If you look for ugliness, duplicity, character flaws,mistrust, violence and negativity that is all you will find.

Instead look for beauty, intelligence, compassion, friendliness - there is plenty around.

[Bigfish]

I think that the USA has become so homogenized that there is no culture.

No offense, but that's a very ethnocentric point of view. Of course we have culture. It is just difficult for us to see ourselves because to us, it's all normal.

[Kel]

It's probably much easier to define a culture other than your own because you can do so in a much more stereotypical way. If you asked a Japanese or Australian person to sum up their culture to a child they would probably have quite a lot of difficulty with it as well. People tend to see members of their own group as more individual (or unique/diverse) than people of other groups, people in other groups get lumped together as 'them' and 'they' have particular noticeable features which make them different from 'us'. Being outside a culture I think it is difficult to understand the different nuances within that culture, also western culture is not the only one that adapts and changes with outside influence. The idea of culture as a static thing is also rather naive, again as with other cultures we look at our historical culture from a simplistic point of view. It's easier to focus on the dominant discourse (for want of a better word) or the time, rather than to look at the variations and influences on that historic culture over time.

Regarding all the awful things that humans do to each other, I think it's too easy because we've evolved in a way that has let us advance to technological and ,in a way, intellectual supremacy to think that 'humans' are much better than other creatures. We had certain traits (opposable thumbs :P) that lead to an opportunity for us to develop, when the right motivation presented itself, more than other animals (this is highly simplified of course and not based on any sort of scientific evidence, but I do believe that humans at the start weren't destined to be special and that other creatures with the right catalyst could have developed into the dominant species instead. Some members of the crow family and also chimpanzees have shown tool use for problem solving, but given the status of humans they would never have the chance to develop that into what we have now). Our society is something which has been developing from animalistic roots and is something that will always be developing, territorial fights are not uncommon in the animal world and whilst I've heard that animals generally don't kill others of their species, given how numerous humans are it's probably not that surprising that we can (as on a species level the deaths of members of the species will not impact it's future survival adversely **discalimer** I am in no way, shape or form condoning murder of anybody for any purpose, merely pointing out that as a species you can see why we might have this behaviour when other animals do not).

The values (or virtues if you prefer) that our society has developed (remember also that not all cultures are monogamous) can broadly be seen to either a) cater to the survival of the species as a whole and/or b) to further the interests of those in power, the origins of our cultural values are too complicated for me to understand/find out and probably would take far too long to be written here (and then contested by people with another interpretation of it and so on). Bottom line is we have certain ideals which are aspired to (attractiveness, wealth, monogamy and so on) and which we need to confirm to to some extent to fit in well in society. I don't see the idea of 'mate for life' as a lie, more as an aspiration which many people may never achieve but which we still value as a society. But it's not something set in stone, with seperations becoming more common we are getting more realistic expectations for relationships in the world we are living in at the moment. Also bear in mind that a changing rate of divorce doesn't mean that people are any less happy in their relationships, it may just reflect that divorce has become a more acceptable thing and the stakes aren't so high (back when men owned all of a womans property once they married and had sole rights for childcare I'm pretty sure there weren't many divorces, I'm also pretty sure that not all marraiges were happy).

We are social creatures, a solo human doesn't really have great odds compared to other creatures when left alone, you could argue that with the technology we have a human could survive perfectly well, but that technology was developed collectively, not by one individual. Not being 'real' with each other is one reflection of the way in which people adapt to try and fit in with the rest of society and also to gain greater power within it. It is, perhaps, a negative impact of people trying to conform to societal norms, that being said if everyone was completely honest with each other it doesn't mean that the world would be a better place.

[Kromtor]

No animal on earth, humans included, “mate for life” or go into some sort of romantic mourning if the mate dies.

If you take a look at this list of animals that mate for life you'll find a very important species:
http://www.wonderquest.com/animal-mate-for-life.htm

The bald fucking eagle. *salutes the flag*

[Kaynin]

Just some points.

Culture is developped over the centuries.

With all due respect, the US is one of the youngest countries in the world. I wouldn't say they lack culture. Their culture is just fresh and new. And Because it is fresh and new, it doesn't 'look' like culture. It's all still... new..

There's some cultural highlights I can point out on the fly though. Las Vegas for example. American Football is a culture, despite it's based on another sport abroad, but hey, you're only 4 centuries old. That's not a helluva lot of time to develop new games. :P In that regard, most things considered culture in older countries/areas where civilization has lasted much longer. Obviously have more cultural ighlights.


Don't forget Native Americans have a VERY broad, intreresting and remarkable culture that's often not considered as well. :)


And now some on topic then...

"Virtue is persecuted more by the wicked
than it is loved by the good."

That's all I got to say about it. :P

[Starbuck_Jones]

If you look for ugliness, duplicity, character flaws,mistrust, violence and negativity that is all you will find.

Instead look for beauty, intelligence, compassion, friendliness - there is plenty around.I see the good every day as well as the bad. Its been my experience though that the good does not come naturally as the bad does. Good it seems more often to show up when an event or situation arises that allows for those virtues to be advertised in some way. I know there are people that do this kinda thing on a daily basis like paramedics, nurses, etc. But look at things like a natural disaster in some far off land. The people were poor and starving there long before an earthquake hit or a giant sea wave washed away their home. But now (we) can go and help and show everyone what good people we are. Its like an odd form of self gratification. Would you have lent a hand otherwise? Anyway that's getting a bit to moral righteous in my opinion.

Back to the Human Virtue, or I guess really what I am getting at is Human Nature. For example, how do you act when your at home, at a public place, in private etc. Of the various virtues and morals that you have picked up in your life time, What ones do you use or value in your private life, vs your public life. Its like the Hawthorne Effect in a way, when were being observed in some way, people will act differently than if they were not.

[Spin]

The easiest path is the one that is well trodden and goes downhill. As far doing good, well, good requires effort and reaching out to others, putting yourself at risk.

Human Nature is what it is--a predatory animal attempting to rise above its instincts. There are reasons all of our languages have words for good and evil.

IMO you sound depressed dude. Get outside in the sun and spend the afternoon with some buds at a BBQ. Nothing says love like burning animal flesh, booze and buds. Get primal and don't think so much for a few hours.

[Bigfish]

Its like the Hawthorne Effect in a way, when were being observed in some way, people will act differently than if they were not.

That's true to an extant, but it also doesn't take long for the "you're being watched" effect to wear off if it isn't re-enforced. Its just the nature of interaction the the presence of another entity alters behavior, but its not particularly unexpected given that stimuli have changed.

As far as I'm concerned, good and evil are just words that describe the ego-centric perspective of whether something is good or bad. From my experience, people are driven by self actualization shaped on what they value, which was in turn influenced by their upbringing.

As far as charities are concerned though, you have to understand how they operate. Non-profit organizations do not function based on everyone in them not being payed for their work. The function like any other business, paying their employee's salaries, providing benefits, etc. They get started because someone capable of generating large amounts of revenue finds that people are willing to throw money at charties to make themselves feel better, so they start a business/charity which doesn't turn a profit, but still pays them a salary competitive with what they would earn in the private job market.

I call it the reaction to media portrayal of world events. What ACTUALLY is going on in the world has very little relevance to what people TELL you is going on in the world.

You think whether or not Octomom is a fit mother has anything to do her financial or psychological situation? The reality is because she pushed out more simultaneous babies than any other woman, she got media attention, and suddenly everything she does or doesn't do is up for public scrutiny. At the same time, how many thousands of unfit mothers are there out there who treat their kids terribly, but no one cares because Rita the crackwhore didn't make national news? How many unwed mothers have more children than they can reasonably care for, but no one gives a damn because their 14 kids came out one at a time?

[Hachoo]

All this talk about culture makes me want to play some Civ 4.

[Kissell13]

Americas culture; what is it?

We are a culture of excess. More, more, more. More, money, more food, bigger house, faster cars, while placing little value on things than many other cultures make central to their lives.

[Mooni]

For example, how do you act when your at home, at a public place, in private etc. Of the various virtues and morals that you have picked up in your life time, What ones do you use or value in your private life, vs your public life. Its like the Hawthorne Effect in a way, when were being observed in some way, people will act differently than if they were not. There's a movement in social science circles to call this "Self-surveillance culture". Because of all the social networking, the reality shows, facebook livejournal myspace yourspace herspace, we're all acting differently and it's becoming unacceptable to NOT have a public face for everyone to see.
WoW players I think experience this a little more than other MMOs, because we can't /hide or /stealthmode or anything. If you're online, people know what zone you're in and what level you are and what class you are, and that's that. So it changes the way we behave. We lie and cheat to get out of things we don't want to do (like naxx10 runs) and then we have to run off and begrudgingly play some low level alt because we can't play the character we want to.
Curious, Starbucks - what do you think about consensual crime? I'm talking about unlicensed prize fights, euthanasia, drinking liquor in dry counties, members of the armed forces committing "sodomy" which is against the Uniformed Code of Military Justice (includes oral! Also against certain state laws and local statutes) I don't want to get into a big arguement of whether lawful=moral, but

[Coltimar]

It makes much more sense when you understand this; There is no good in the heart of man. We teach our children to behave a certain way to illicit a result. But there is nothing good that comes from inside humans. We are all base and selfish to our core.

That's why you say 'First is marriage, the whole mate for life thing is such a fraud.' It's a fraud because we can't wrap our minds around the idea of being committed to someone once they stop pleasing us. Every second of our day and every thought we produce centers around pleasing ourselves or bettering our own situation. Why does marriage fail? Because the idea of fulfilling the vows of marriage is so foreign to our nature. If my wife becomes covered in oozing boils, nags at me 16 hours a day and never lifts a finger to do anything in our house should I love her? Of course, I made a covenant to do so. But, because we are such hedonists, our first inclination is to move on when things become difficult.

People say God is a fantasy and that we are a simpletons who follow Him because history says that those who have are no better off than those who haven't. The problem with that is that only person has every wholly followed God. Moses was a murderer, David was an adulter and murderer, Abraham gave his wife away as a prostitute, twice. Who's fault is their failure? God's? No. We are superior to every other creature on the planet because we have the ability to choose to love God. No other organism has that ability. We do not, however, choose God.

If you want to talk history, this philosophy of 'we are god' rotates through civilization ever so often. Something else comes along to replace it for a while. It's nothing new. It's very prevealant inside Christainity. If you sit down with a 'Christian' and explain who the God of the bible really is they would say 'that's not MY God'. Everyone wants to see the baby (Heaven) but no one wants to hear about the labor (life).

To the original point, American culture is as bad as any other, but not worse. I haven't seen anyone gang-raped on a public street today, but for a few bucks I can pay to see a bunch of actors pretend to. Most other countries who rail against America do so because they are jealous of the very thing that makes us as bad as we are; our prosperity.

'For example, how do you act when your at home, at a public place, in private etc. Of the various virtues and morals that you have picked up in your life time, What ones do you use or value in your private life, vs your public life.' Refer to my first point. There should be no discrepancy between private and public virtues.

[Kaynin]

Well, if you want to get philosophical. What we think is good and what we think is bad is our own choice. If you think long enough about it. There is no good or bad. It's just what we make of it. Suppose person A finds X bad. But Person B finds X good. It might still be that both Person A as well Person B like X.


Some feel the need to teach people, others feel the need to let people teach themselves. I'm usually the latter but occasionally I enjoy poking around. :P

[Starbuck_Jones]

@Mooni

Consensual crime? First off I feel there is an excessive amount of outdated and eccentric laws that do nothing more than 'create criminals'. You can look up silly laws on the internet, like some places you cant wear shoes to bed. The war on drugs is the biggest offender I can offer. An addiction is an addiction, why one is illegal (drugs) and another is not (alcohol/tobacco) is silly and does nothing but create criminals and crime where there isn't any. So a lot of what would be consensual crime in my opinion is not a real crime at all but prolly the product of some sort of by gone political agenda. Military however is a totally different ball game to me. Its not a democracy, if you decide you want to be a part of the military you accept everything that comes with it. They play by their own set of rules and they have to giving what they do. They tell you what to do, eat, sleep, who to shoot etc. You give up your individual rights as far as I am concerned when you join.

As for the rest of your examples it gets complicated. My personal belief is that government (law makers and enforcers) should not be involved in peoples individual personal lives. Like the gay/lesbian marriage debate. If I were in charge I would tell them that trying to redefine the word is not the way to do it, but call it what it is, a civil union. Besides all marriage license are simply a contract between couple and the state (division rights of property, taxes, divorce laws etc). The rest is religious and a cultural ceremony that the government has no say in. However back to your examples I also feel that if the place you live in has decided that something is against the law, then its against the law regardless of my personal feelings of right vs. wrong and personal moral code. If something you like to do is illegal like drink in a dry county, you have choices. Live with it, break the law, move to where its legal, or get involved and change the law.

@Coltimar

Kinda Freudian but ill have to agree with you on a lot of it. I don't think by default were born good or evil, but are products of our environment, upbringing and personal willpower. Unfortunately like water in a river, everything will take the path of least resistance and more often than not that will be a path of 'evil' and that path is what gets taught to the next generation. I think George Carlin said it best when it comes to religion.

Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! Well, anyway, I guess that one of the reasons I started this topic was to get some thoughts going. I am a history major and I find it completely interesting as well as in awe when I look at things from a historical stand point and compare what has gone on, and what is going on, to my own life and how I was raised and taught etc. Also for the last year or so there has been a splinter in my mind about these things, I am going to blame the recent presidential race for it, but there is an itch that is making me want to go do something about it all, instead of just sit around and grump about it like everyone else does.

[Multibocks]

No animal on earth, humans included, “mate for life” or go into some sort of romantic mourning if the mate dies.

If you take a look at this list of animals that mate for life you'll find a very important species:
http://www.wonderquest.com/animal-mate-for-life.htm

The bald fucking eagle. *salutes the flag*

Did you even read the article?



Of course, it depends on what you mean by "mate for life." These creatures do mate for life in the social sense of living together in pairs but they rarely stay strictly faithful. About 90 percent of the 9,700 bird species pair, mate, and raise chicks together — some returning together to the same nest site year after year. Males, however, often raise other males’ offspring unknowingly. DNA testing reveals that the social-pair male did not father 10, 20, and sometimes 40 percent of the chicks.

Black vultures, though, discourage infidelity. All nearby vultures attack any vulture caught philandering.



So I guess we should have a Black Vulture for the national bird.

Also:


One species is absolutely monogamous. In the black darkness of the deep sea, the tiny male anglerfish (perhaps one tenth the female’s size) detects and follows the scent trail of a female of his own species. Once found, he bites his chosen one and hangs on. His skin fuses to hers, their bodies grow together (he gets his food through a common blood supply and becomes essentially a sperm producing organ). They mate for life — a short life for the male.

So, truely, only one species on the planet is absolutely monogamous... and that's due to physical limitations.

edit: P.S. God bless George Carlin... and, yes, the irony is not escaping me =)

[Starbuck_Jones]

That would suck if he bit and fused to the wrong spot!

Damn it! Im fused to her armpit!