Ultimate Showdown

[EaTCarbS]

--Aelli-- VS --Zin--

Oh, would I love to see that :P

Just how exactly would you go about fighting another boxer in a pvp situation?

[algol]

Grounding totem + separate healer...dunno...sounds like an advantage versus a bunch of mages.

[Zal]

Bets on Aelli (since i've never seen videos of zin)
Anyway, MB vs MB battle are all about timing. Who can break down the most grounding totems before the CD is up again. Atleast shaman wise

[Sam DeathWalker]

To be fair they both have to control all 5 guys right?

Can't Mages take out Shaman from 41 yards?

[Skuggomann]

That is all (http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/285267#)

[glo]

To be fair they both have to control all 5 guys right?
I believe it would be 4 vs 10 if they both use all their characters.

Can't Mages take out Shaman from 41 yards? The 5 yard range advantage means very little with all those grounding totems.

[Toned]

To be fair they both have to control all 5 guys right?

Can't Mages take out Shaman from 41 yards?Look at your post count and then you make comments like these... I forget YOU ARE THE BEST WOW PLAYER OF ALL TIME ! Spend less time on the forums and go play One character or one GROUP to atleast 60+. That way you will have some idea of what you proclaim / talk about.

[Menthu]

Look at your post count and then you make comments like these... I forget YOU ARE THE BEST WOW PLAYER OF ALL TIME ! Spend less time on the forums and go play One character or one GROUP to atleast 60+. That way you will have some idea of what you proclaim / talk about. Dude chill.... he was just asking about an advantage of 5 yards.

Anyway, I bet on Ellay aswell. Grounding totem = win...and he with the talent that makes the cooldown be less aswell, you can use it alot. But when those grounding totems are gone for even 1 seconde, it would be nice to see what happens to 1 of the shamans :).

Junglelove,

-Menthu

[elsegundo]

mages cant shoot what they cant see.

[Gurblash]

Considering Zin hasn't played since the beginning of TBC I'd put my money on Aelli.

[Sam DeathWalker]

Seems to me 5 yards is a big edge. You just spam on your target untill they come in range its kinda hard to determine exact yardage, its not like there is a line telling you when to stop at 42 yards, so you get your spell off first.

I suppose that range has nothing to do with Survival Hunters being considered OP.

Well then Zin has it hands down, he should not be forced to play 4 characters, so at worst its his 5 against 4 ...


Fireball Rank 16
19% of base mana 35 yd range
3.5 sec cast
Hurls a fiery ball that causes 888 to 1132 Fire damage and an additional 116 Fire damage over 8 sec.


Grounding will take out the first hits sure, but then fireball has no cooldown, just a unmod 3.5 sec cast .... the 2nd volly are going to hit, as will the 3rd volly. Although I suppose the Shaman will be in close at that point. Also the shaman is tied to the totems and can't really advance out of their range at the start.

I just think range is very important.

[elsegundo]

I just think range is very important.
i have nothing against you sam. so dont take this the wrong way.

i think experience is even more important. so until you actually get into one of these arena matches, everything you say is theory and can quickly be countered by people with experience. again, mages cant shoot what they cannot see. =]

[jtbndy]

That is all ('http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/285267#')Exactly what I thought of when I saw the thread title.

[Lance]

Sam,

You're so far out of touch with this game its embarrassing. I know you're just trying to be helpful, but by posting such ridiculous things - you're doing more harm than good. Derailing threads and such. Please go play the game for a few years - get some real experience at end game PvE and PvP content, and then come back and contribute.

Until such time, you're nothing but a burden to the folks here that are trying to have insightful conversations.Early contender for post of the year. If we had an award that is :) Couldn't agree more. Ellay ftw :)

[Gurblash]

Ultimate Showdown v2.0 Sam Deathwalker vs. Fursphere... GOGOGO

[Bigfish]

Sam,

You're so far out of touch with this game its embarrassing. I know you're just trying to be helpful, but by posting such ridiculous things - you're doing more harm than good. Derailing threads and such. Please go play the game for a few years - get some real experience at end game PvE and PvP content, and then come back and contribute.

Until such time, you're nothing but a burden to the folks here that are trying to have insightful conversations.

This.

[Starbuck_Jones]

Ive seen a bunch of Xzin's movies and he got to the max pvp rank back when it took a ton of time to do. Ive seen a lot of aelle's stuff too and its just as impressive. I would say if they had equal geared toons I would give the current advantage to aelle. but if xzin got back into the game and relearned all the new tricks and nuances, I would give the fight to him.

[Sam DeathWalker]

Well whatever, I think more then conclusory allegation would promote yur position, but Ill defer and read how it goes and get back to leveling.

I find it hard to belive that a 5 yard range advantage is useless but whatever.

[Dorffo]

I find it hard to belive that a 5 yard range advantage is useless but whatever. Not useless, but not nearly as useful as you're thinking... Yes - 5 yards is a big difference if both teams are stationary and 41 yards apart...

A more realistic outlook might be: the time that it'd take to close that 5yd gap is close to the amount of flight-time the fireball will have (used to play a sniping mage spec back in the day). It seems to me that the first-strike advantage of the extra range is countered by the passive first-strike absorb ability of grounding totem.



Back on topic - it'd really depend on the mage spec / totem stomping IMO and the healer type. Both teams comps bring ridiculous amounts of focus fire, and some fairly hefty defensive cooldowns as well. If you somehow managed to lag out and sheep/hex everyone at once that would be pure goodness.

[Sam DeathWalker]

It seems to me that the first-strike advantage of the extra range is countered by the passive first-strike absorb ability of grounding totem

And yet to get the advantage of the grounding totem you have to stay within its range, making you somewhat stationary. But ya you can close 5 yards really fast. But as the shaman you just can't stand there and wait for the mages to come into your range you HAVE to be moving towards them, which means that untill you hit FS 35 yards range (after patch) you cant cast, or the LavaB with the insta cast mod. Plus in the case of boxer vs. boxer yur lead will be in range and your followers won't ....

I dont know looks to me like the group moving is going to be at the disadvantage and the mages dont HAVE to move. I think the shaman lead goes down first then the mage lead goes down to LavaB then ....

[Moorea]

Well whatever, I think more then conclusory allegation would promote yur position, but Ill defer and read how it goes and get back to leveling.

I find it hard to belive that a 5 yard range advantage is useless but whatever.

There are so many things your total lack of experience with playing the game or ability to listen/read/understand make hard for your to grasp... But hey, you're convinced you need mages for the range... good for you... Come back when you're level 70 on at least 1 toon (notice I don't even say 80 as that will never happen at your pace... unless the cap is 120 and they have 5x raf to 80)

[Nitro]

Ive seen a bunch of Xzin's movies and he got to the max pvp rank back when it took a ton of time to do. Ive seen a lot of aelle's stuff too and its just as impressive. I would say if they had equal geared toons I would give the current advantage to aelle. but if xzin got back into the game and relearned all the new tricks and nuances, I would give the fight to him.

Back when Xzin played and did well in PvP macros could do ALOT more for you, they could make decisions based on conditions. It's a completely different game now.

[Ellay]

Boxers don't kill Boxers, we make the normal population suffer our wrath~!

[Hachoo]

Ive seen a bunch of Xzin's movies and he got to the max pvp rank back when it took a ton of time to do. Ive seen a lot of aelle's stuff too and its just as impressive. I would say if they had equal geared toons I would give the current advantage to aelle. but if xzin got back into the game and relearned all the new tricks and nuances, I would give the fight to him.

Back when Xzin played and did well in PvP macros could do ALOT more for you, they could make decisions based on conditions. It's a completely different game now.Not to mention back then 4 mages could 1 shot anyone (and I mean 1 shot, not cast 1 spell then line up the second for the kill, 1 shot). With the right amount of twitchiness you could probably 1 shot a couple of people before they even knew what hit them. Its a different game now. 4 mages and a priest aren't nearly as viable now as they were then.

Does Xzin even play WoW anymore though? I haven't heard anything about him actually playing since BC :D

[5fingersofdoom]

Boxers don't kill Boxers, we make the normal population suffer our wrath~!I'm tempted to roll 5 horde 5 ally on one server,just so i can beat myself up once a week.
I'm not getting as much Horde love as i'm normally used to on AAkir.
Damn Horde soapdodging slackers. :whistling:

[Oh and Shaman>Mage]

[EaTCarbS]

Boxers don't kill Boxers, we make the normal population suffer our wrath~! :D

[Sam DeathWalker]

Limitations
Must be within 20 yards of the totem.

Ya well 20 yards is better then 10 but still its not like you can advance unlimited. Better to throw it down if you see the mage cast his fireball. The point stands though as Shaman you have to advance on the Mage. And as you can see from your 30 yard estimate judging distances is not overly simple. But as its instant cast you can advance and use it at the same time if yur fast enoughs.

I stand somewhat corrected.


Bit of bad news though, pulses every 3 seconds again:


2009-02-26 20:47:41Re: Tremor totem: Feared out of range again
Tremor totem wasn't intentionally made to pulse every second, it was fixed in this patch. You would be best suited posting a suggestion in the suggestion forum.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dresorull
Blizzard QA

[glo]

Limitations
Must be within 20 yards of the totem.

Ya well 20 yards is better then 10 but still its not like you can advance unlimited. Better to throw it down if you see the mage cast his fireball. The point stands though as Shaman you have to advance on the Mage. And as you can see from your 30 yard estimate judging distances is not overly simple. But as its instant cast you can advance and use it at the same time if yur fast enoughs.

I stand somewhat corrected.


Bit of bad news though, pulses every 3 seconds again:


2009-02-26 20:47:41Re: Tremor totem: Feared out of range again
Tremor totem wasn't intentionally made to pulse every second, it was fixed in this patch. You would be best suited posting a suggestion in the suggestion forum.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dresorull
Blizzard QAHeh, you are so amazingly lost at all times.

Seriously, try playing the game before you start speaking as an authority on it. You will find that people don't point and laugh quite as much if you have half a clue.

tremor totem != grounding totem

[Mokoi]

1. Mages start casting fireball
2. Shamans put 4 groundings down
3. Shamans dance as 5 fireballs are eaten by ONE grounding (play more to see this happen)
4. Mages start casting another fireball from 41yards (assuming shamans are still dancing and havent moved 5yards in 3 seconds.. and flame shock/lava bursted the first mage to his death.
5. second volley of 5 fireballs eaten by second grounding totem.
6. mage gets annoyed and starts casting scorch
7. 5 scorches eaten by third grounding totem.
8. one more totem to kill yay! and only 10 seconds of casts so far!
9. Shaman destroys his last grounding totem with.. 4 more groundings!!
:repeat


Bit of bad news though, pulses every 3 seconds again:


2009-02-26 20:47:41Re: Tremor totem: Feared out of range again
Tremor totem wasn't intentionally made to pulse every second, it was fixed in this patch. You would be best suited posting a suggestion in the suggestion forum.

dont you PLAY shamans? how do you not know the difference between grounding and tremor!?

how do I ignore Sam's stupid comments on anything to do with wow.

/furforpresident

[glo]

1. Mages start casting fireball
2. Shamans put 4 groundings down
3. Shamans dance as 5 fireballs are eaten by ONE grounding (play more to see this happen)
4. Mages start casting another fireball from 41yards (assuming shamans are still dancing and havent moved 5yards in 3 seconds.. and flame shock/lava bursted the first mage to his death.
5. second volley of 5 fireballs eaten by second grounding totem.
6. mage gets annoyed and starts casting scorch
7. 5 scorches eaten by third grounding totem.
8. one more totem to kill yay! and only 10 seconds of casts so far!
9. Shaman destroys his last grounding totem with.. 4 more groundings!!
:repeat



Bit of bad news though, pulses every 3 seconds again:


2009-02-26 20:47:41Re: Tremor totem: Feared out of range again
Tremor totem wasn't intentionally made to pulse every second, it was fixed in this patch. You would be best suited posting a suggestion in the suggestion forum.

dont you PLAY shamans? how do you not know the difference between grounding and tremor!?

how do I ignore Sam's stupid comments on anything to do with wow.

/furforpresidentIn his half a year of developing superior characters with trade skills as high as 120 and the best greens available on the ah(for a limited budget) he hasn't gotten around to doing the totem quests ;)

[Gomotron]

Ok, I tried taking a friendly approach to Sam. Fuck it, what a waste of time.

Flame on!I laughed out loud at this...

[BobGnarly]

Alright guys, chill on the totems. You see, Sam is going for best WoW player in the whole wide world (given some ridiculous set of self-imposed criterion). Sure, he's currently ranked 475 millionth, but we'll see what's up in 3 decades. In any event, when you have goals so lofty, you don't have time for trivialities like how your class works.

Plus, have you guys considered the dreaded fireball fear? I didn't think so. pwned by SAM!

[Mokoi]

actually, in reflection, the first image you see on

http://www.samdeathwalker.com (published by himself on his profile)

probably says it all.

I need to go brush my teeth now.

[Yamio]

Here we have yet another thread that has been derailed by <Name Removed>, and true to form, once again ends up being about <Name Removed>. Hmmmm....imagine that.

[Zub]

Here we have yet another thread that has been derailed by <Name Removed>, and true to form, once again ends up being about <Name Removed>. Hmmmm....imagine that.
also note that <Name Removed> was only asking a question about the 5yards difference when he got insta-flamed by some random follow-the-trend member.
<Name Removed> is clueless, but the derailments dont come from him.

[Yamio]

Duly noted. I went through the thread and you're right Zub. Based on past dealings I just assumed the cause.

[Zub]

I think i vote on the shamans as well.
In an arena make up there are alot of options for breaking line of sight, and the 5 yards dont make much difference if you can't have a clear shot.
Shammies rushing in and dropping grounding groundings make sure the mages are useless for a few seconds, and by then 1+ mage will be down from the shaman burst.

should the mage manage to Ice block before the nuke, it will just cycle through the fight again, with more totems, but no iceblock available.

Things that could go well for the mages though: Mirror image x 5 would definitely mean a crap ton of dps, but again you would need to stagger the nukes to not have them all killed by 1 totem.
Water Elementals could possibly chain freeze shamies at a far range, but i don't think it will prevent the shamies from closing in

Sheep is not an advantage as Shamies can hex anyway, unless you get inta-sheeps on, but it would take a bit of macroing to get all 4 out :-)

[Zub]

On the note of how many toons (5vs5 or 4vs10 thingy) i don't think it matters as long as the number is equal they are all controlled by one guy on each side
No pocket healer for aelli :-)

[Sam DeathWalker]

dont you PLAY shamans? how do you not know the difference between grounding and tremor!?

Opps, my bad. At least I admit when I am wrong, not about the 20 yards but getting feared out of range, still bad news for tremor totems though regardless.


1. Mages start casting fireball
2. Shamans put 4 groundings down
3. Shamans dance as 5 fireballs are eaten by ONE grounding (play more to see this happen)
4. Mages start casting another fireball from 41yards (assuming shamans are still dancing and havent moved 5yards in 3 seconds.. and flame shock/lava bursted the first mage to his death.
5. second volley of 5 fireballs eaten by second grounding totem.
6. mage gets annoyed and starts casting scorch
7. 5 scorches eaten by third grounding totem.
8. one more totem to kill yay! and only 10 seconds of casts so far!
9. Shaman destroys his last grounding totem with.. 4 more groundings!!

Thats because of lag one grounding doing all 5 fireballs?

But again due to the 20 yard limitation the shaman are doing nothing to the mages either, the mages cast, then move back 10 yards and spam fireball or whatever untill the shaman move into range again.

If the shaman can stay in the 20 yards of the totems and after 3.1 use flame shock at 30 yards to hit a mage well ya looking bad for the mages. But ya it seems that 5 yards, against a class that can block spells, isnt all that.

In my case there are other reasons to make the mages anyways, with one in each group I can tag and not worry about "no exp for fire nova only killz" pre Thunderstorm, without grouping with the pally. And porting, while staying in group form, is a little time saver. And at closer ranges the mages targeted aoe is nice for sure.

[Zub]

Opps, my bad. You're grounded!

[Stealthy]

Only theorycrafting, but if I were boxing mages up against shammies, I'd go for either of these strategies.

1. Pop mirror image, water eles then invis and move to the centre of shammie grp - then go nuts with AoE - would work best with Belf mages since they could pop arcane torrent to prevent Shammies from using TS.
2. Pop mirror image, water eles, have an instant cast spell like Ice Lance on round robin to take care of groundings, use Iceblock to eat LvB and clear FS dots, cold snap immediately making Ice Block availble again.

Cheers,
S.

[Tasty]

Only theorycrafting, but if I were boxing mages up against shammies, I'd go for either of these strategies.

1. Pop mirror image, water eles then invis and move to the centre of shammie grp - then go nuts with AoE - would work best with Belf mages since they could pop arcane torrent to prevent Shammies from using TS.
2. Pop mirror image, water eles, have an instant cast spell like Ice Lance on round robin to take care of groundings, use Iceblock to eat LvB and clear FS dots, cold snap immediately making Ice Block availble again.

Cheers,
S.

I've seen a few mage vs shaman battles before.

The mages won around 90% of the matches though this WAS at the very end of Pre BC just before WotlK so this have changed dramatically. The main advantage the mages had at the time was aoe. I'd still bet my money on mages these days but that would be based purely on theory rather than on actual experience. Invis, Mirror image trinket/ap(if you have it) blastwave /ae etc.

Who knows.

[Prepared]

Sorry to burst in here but a good PvP multiboxing mage would do none of the things in any of the posts here. To cast a fireball against a multiboxing team of shamans would be a complete waste of time on the mages part. A good pvp mage would not do that. He would also not invis to get into the middle or blink into the middle of the shamans. The shamans should all have Lightning Shield up which would cause damage against the AE'ing mages.

The thing the good PvP mage would do against a multiboxing team of shamans would be to cast Blizzard on them as far away as possible. If the mages were frost spec, the shamans would have little to no chance especially if the mages were facing the opposite side of the shamans. In my PvP experience against mages that cast Blizzard, the multiboxing shaman has very little to defend especially if there are group of targeted AoE classes casting from a distance. Targetted AoE is the best offense against any multiboxer because the multiboxer usually has all of their characters together. Unless I'm missing or forgetting something, the shaman doesn't have a targetted AoE spell, but the mage class does and is his/her best offensive spell.

Now, all things being equal, if both of the multiboxers knew of each other, met each other on some battlefield without any other players around and they spotted each other, it would be more fair than if one of them spotted the other and got the jump. But alas, in most battles that is not the case. One side usually sees the other first and usually it's from the side or from behind. And usually there are many other players around fighting the battle so it's really a numbers game and a location game. In other words, where the numbers are on the battlefield usually indicate the outcome of the battle and who wins in which locations. The element of surprise also plays a big part.

[Tasty]

Sorry to burst in here but a good PvP multiboxing mage would do none of the things in any of the posts here. To cast a fireball against a multiboxing team of shamans would be a complete waste of time on the mages part. A good pvp mage would not do that. He would also not invis to get into the middle or blink into the middle of the shamans. The shamans should all have Lightning Shield up which would cause damage against the AE'ing mages.

The thing the good PvP mage would do against a multiboxing team of shamans would be to cast Blizzard on them as far away as possible. If the mages were frost spec, the shamans would have little to no chance especially if the mages were facing the opposite side of the shamans. In my PvP experience against mages that cast Blizzard, the multiboxing shaman has very little to defend especially if there are group of targeted AoE classes casting from a distance. Targetted AoE is the best offense against any multiboxer because the multiboxer usually has all of their characters together. Unless I'm missing or forgetting something, the shaman doesn't have a targetted AoE spell, but the mage class does and is his/her best offensive spell.

Now, all things being equal, if both of the multiboxers knew of each other, met each other on some battlefield without any other players around and they spotted each other, it would be more fair than if one of them spotted the other and got the jump. But alas, in most battles that is not the case. One side usually sees the other first and usually it's from the side or from behind. And usually there are many other players around fighting the battle so it's really a numbers game and a location game. In other words, where the numbers are on the battlefield usually indicate the outcome of the battle and who wins in which locations. The element of surprise also plays a big part.

Even after winning against all three shaman multiboxers I guess I'm still considered a bad mage then.

[Sam DeathWalker]

Well that makes sense, no matter how hard the Shamans can hit the mages at 36 yards, 5 Blizzards will hit the Shamans way way harder.

[Moorea]

Note that if you reopened the <name removed> thread maybe the insanity could be contained there...

[algol]

If somebody would just take a stand and ban the jerk, all these problems would go away.
What, for example somebody with moderator status?

[Yamio]

It's not fair to ban <Name Removed> because he hasn't done anything wrong. Yes, some of the outlandish remarks he makes about things he doesn't have a clue about grates on your nerves, but in reality what's the harm in that? Every time he spouts off something wrong, there is always someone willing to counter his argument, and thoroughly I might add. For every "Head-up-my-ass" statement of his is met by a minimum to two "yer full of shit"s.

I may not like <Name Removed> and the circus that comes with him, but I'd probably be one of the first people to yell if he was banned.

Annoying isn't bannable. Misinformation shouldn't be bannable if he isn't peddling anything. Eccentric isn't bannable. Of course, our moderators can ban for anything, but no matter how gawddamn annoying <Name Removed> is, he hasn't really done anything which he should be banned for.

[Kaynin]

Back in TBC (When I still did Arena :P ) I fought a 5x mage set up once, me playing 4x shaman + individual healer

Out of ALL the arena I ever did. That was by far the most hectic fight ever. I actually won. Grounding totems and waiting them out, nuking one down before they had a chance to start. But even then it was just wicked. The actual heat of the fight literally only lasted like 4-5 seconds, and like 7 people were dead in that time. (Two of me, four of them. It then lasted for a while longer as their last mage started to kite. :P )

I think, mages vs shaman boxer. It's all down to who gets off the start. Refreshing grounding totems won't matter. As the fight will be decided before groundings can be refreshed. If the mage boxer waits until the moment the shaman boxers drops groundings, then proceeds to blink in, get rid of totems. It would seriously be a close call. Imo. But a second off, and the tide would be turned. :D

Most fun fight I ever did. :P

[beyond-tec]

Well whatever, I think more then conclusory allegation would promote yur position, but Ill defer and read how it goes and get back to leveling.

I find it hard to belive that a 5 yard range advantage is useless but whatever.


Mages + 5yards = useless:

very easy to understand because

a)
when I'm at max range and I see you start casting a 3,5 sec. spell I just move 2 steps backward.
You cannot move while casting, and get the "out of range" message when your cast is ready so you need to move forward to
get me in range while I ran in your direction so I'm in range for an instant cast and run backward out of range again before
you're ready with your 3,5 sec. cast.

b)
bloodelves got an AOE Silence effect. I doesn't take 3,5 seconds to move 40 yards forwards to be close enough to silence all of your chars.

c)
I bet you can not turn your chars. If I ride pass your toons your heading in the wrong direction
so the cast failes while I start attacking your toons.


so plz stop with this theory crap and start playing this game!

[shaeman]

/sillymode on
I'm guessing here, but is "<Name Removed>" references to Lord Voldamort.

Do not mention his name - for if you do he may show up and kill you.
/sillymode off

[Kaynin]

/sillymode on
I'm guessing here, but is "<Name Removed>" references to Lord Voldamort.

Do not mention his name - for if you do he may show up and kill you.
/sillymode off

Who?

[shaeman]

Lord Voldamort - Referenced a lot by " He who must not be named", A character in a series of fictional books by J.K Rowling, adapted in to various films.

I just thought it amusing that references to a certain forum member are being removed. Do not speak of he who is known as "WONT PUT NAME AS IT WILL BE EDITED".

I guess my weird sense of humour was an epic fail :)

[Yamio]

<Name Removed> is evil. I've seen it. Look at that photo on his website. Only an evil person would put something like that up on their site, without warning or cautionary flag. My granddaughter saw his photo and started wailing. When I saw what had made her cry, I started wailing too. "Oh the humanity" kinda wailing.

<Name Removed> sort of reminds me of Cosmo Kramer. THAT'S IT!!! I now proclaim <Name Removed> Kramer!

You shall now forever be known as Kramer!



Shaeman, it's good to know there's one person who appreciates my humor. /bow

[merujo]

Seems to me 5 yards is a big edge. You just spam on your target untill they come in range its kinda hard to determine exact yardage, its not like there is a line telling you when to stop at 42 yards, so you get your spell off first.

I suppose that range has nothing to do with Survival Hunters being considered OP.

Well then Zin has it hands down, he should not be forced to play 4 characters, so at worst its his 5 against 4 ...

<snip>

Grounding will take out the first hits sure, but then fireball has no cooldown, just a unmod 3.5 sec cast .... the 2nd volly are going to hit, as will the 3rd volly. Although I suppose the Shaman will be in close at that point. Also the shaman is tied to the totems and can't really advance out of their range at the start.

I just think range is very important.

Sam,

You're so far out of touch with this game its embarrassing. I know you're just trying to be helpful, but by posting such ridiculous things - you're doing more harm than good. Derailing threads and such. Please go play the game for a few years - get some real experience at end game PvE and PvP content, and then come back and contribute.

Until such time, you're nothing but a burden to the folks here that are trying to have insightful conversations.

i lol'd hard

[Kaynin]

Lord Voldamort - Referenced a lot by " He who must not be named", A character in a series of fictional books by J.K Rowling, adapted in to various films.

I just thought it amusing that references to a certain forum member are being removed. Do not speak of he who is known as "WONT PUT NAME AS IT WILL BE EDITED".

I guess my weird sense of humour was an epic fail :)

Actually, it seems my sense of humour was an epic fail. I totally got your joke, you just missed mine. :P

[Sajuuk]

This is the ultimate showdown, of ultimate destiny
Good guys bad guys explosions, as far as the eye can see
I don't know who will survive, I don't know who it will be
this is the ultimate showdown, of ultimate destiny

[shaeman]

Lord Voldamort - Referenced a lot by " He who must not be named", A character in a series of fictional books by J.K Rowling, adapted in to various films.

I just thought it amusing that references to a certain forum member are being removed. Do not speak of he who is known as "WONT PUT NAME AS IT WILL BE EDITED".

I guess my weird sense of humour was an epic fail :)

Actually, it seems my sense of humour was an epic fail. I totally got your joke, you just missed mine. :P

I saw location netherlands and wasn't sure whether your comment was a joke or genuine misunderstanding.
(having said that I used to work for a dutch owned company and found that the dutch I encountered had a strong mastery of English and tended to understand
the british sense of humour, so should have known :) )

[genocyde]

Man, I was all interested in this thread until about halfway through page 2.

I saw the word fireball WAY too many times. (I would be willing to bet there has been less than 100 fireballs cast this entire arena season.)

Then it just turned into good old Sam getting the thread directed at him.

My main interest in this thread is that I run a priest, 3x mage, moonkin PvP team and I've always wondered how I'd do against a 5xShaman team. I definately wouldn't stand there tossing fireballs. You might as well wand. There is a few boxer groups on my BG that are warlocks. Let me tell you how I choose to fight them (from a mages+priest PoV and hopefully get this thread off of Sam).

Usually the first round goes to whoever realizes there is another boxer first. If I don't see him until after i have my entire debuff bar full of warlock pain it won't matter how hard i nuke I die. If I see him first i usually drop his leader before he realizes he's being casted at.

All other matchups I open with my PvP macro off of mounts. Basically what it does is my moonkin cyclones the healer, my 3 mages all pick a different target (/assist /targetnearest or /target next/previous types of commands) and Sheeps. Since almost no classes offer a way to deal with the majority of that from 30+ yards I Spam it 2 - 3 times to eat their PvP trinket if they use one since I only need CC to last long enough to cast one spell.

IF my CC works, then I pick what I assume is their lead toon as my target and cast 5x targeted Aoe followed immediately with 3X PoM + Arcane Blast on the leader to ensure he's toast. You'd be amazed what 5X targeted aoe spells hurts like. Mind Sear + Hurricane + 3x Flamestrike/Blizzard is capable of dropping a geared group in just a few seconds.

If my CC does not work then I start throwing all my instant ranged nukes like PoM+AB or arcane barrage or something while my priest goes in for the AoE fear. he doesn't do much damage and is usually a sacrifice but if that fear lands with no tremor around we all know how that story goes.

I've just always wondered about the 5xShaman with the grounding totems and my fear being of no huge advantage without some luck. Then again I have the moonkin added in for trees+ typhoon is an awesome way to move some toons out of place. I definately have the advantage with range + instants + 4x condition-less silence. What do you guys theorize would be my biggest obstacle?

Ellay, or other shaman teams, what would be your opening choices that I'm not remembering you have?

[warwizard]

Boxers don't kill Boxers, we make the normal population suffer our wrath~!So True!

[Sam DeathWalker]

Mages + 5yards = useless:

very easy to understand because

a)
when I'm at max range and I see you start casting a 3,5 sec. spell I just move 2 steps backward.
You cannot move while casting, and get the "out of range" message when your cast is ready so you need to move forward to
get me in range while I ran in your direction so I'm in range for an instant cast and run backward out of range again before
you're ready with your 3,5 sec. cast.

b)
bloodelves got an AOE Silence effect. I doesn't take 3,5 seconds to move 40 yards forwards to be close enough to silence all of your chars.

c)
I bet you can not turn your chars. If I ride pass your toons your heading in the wrong direction
so the cast failes while I start attacking your toons.


If you do A) then yur not hurting me either, at some point you have to advance.

Ya if yur Bloodelf. But I'm horde .... Also you need to be in 8 yards, so you have to close 33 yards in 3.5 seconds. And its a 2 second deal, not so long.

Im not 100 percent sure if you are in LOS at start of cast that moving behind your oppenet will stop the cast, yes going out of range will stop it but out of LOS? I am sure someone can correct me soon enough. Also I can turn 6 of my guys, just not all of them, but i havn't started setting up for pvp yet. All I have to do is bind a turn key instead of the forward key on the keyclone white list ... and then I can turn all my guys at one time.





(/assist /targetnearest or /target next/previous types of commands) and Sheeps. Since almost no classes offer a way to deal with the majority of that from 30+ yards

Good move.


There is nothing wrong with theorycrafting. I spent a month arguing about which classes to make and decdied on 25 Shaman 1 Pal. Looks my time "theorycrafting" wasn't a total waste. If you are not interested in discussing theory then don't click on the thread. If you think my comments are worthless then put me on ignor.

[genocyde]

Im not 100 percent sure if you are in LOS at start of cast that moving behind your oppenet will stop the cast, yes going out of range will stop it but out of LOS? I am sure someone can correct me soon enough.
An opponent moving from your front to your back in mid cast will not cause the cast to cancel but will cause the spell to fail when the cast completes. So, if you are quick enough to turn around and face him as the cast completes it will still land. However if you cast a spell (i don't care if it's a 1 second cast) and are keyboard turning you will NEVER hit a target at melee range. They will simply keep stepping through you at the last second to cause your spell to fail.

LOS is the same deal, if they go behind a wall and come back out you will still hit them but if they stay hidden your spell will fail at the end of its cast time.



All I have to do is bind a turn key instead of the forward key on the keyclone white list ... and then I can turn all my guys at one time.

Keyboard turning will get you eaten alive by anyone willing to run circles around you or just plain stand in the middle of your group. (all toons face same direction means at least half will probably be facing the wrong way at any given time. However with your numbers Sam, I'm not sure this will be an issue as 1/4 or your team is enough to gib someone in one mean CL cast that will bounce around to anyone close. That and you wont need to cast much in PvP 30x Earth Shock ought to deal with a hefty target pretty swiftly.

Why people keep talking about this 3.5 second cast crap is beyond me. Even in theory crafting you usually don't bring up things that are a guaranteed failure except to say "Don't do drugs". If you cast a 3.5 second anything against a boxing team, you will likely be dead before it finishes... successful or not.

Mages have a load of instant abilities as do most classes. Mages happen to have the most potent instant abilities. Your going to attempt to engage me and I'm going to start my 1.8 second Arcane Blast cast. If your lucky enough to move away I'll likely just cast a targeted AoE or two in front of you or advance myself and begin casting again. If you think your going to cover 40 yards by the time my first cast finishes and AoE silence my team I'm going to individually target each of your characters and counterspell them while they are running and kill you before it wears off.

More likely scenario: You are going to drop a few grounding totems while moving into position or you are going to hole up somewhere in a totem forest I'm nervous to approach.

I'm curious what happens after i drop a handful of Ice Lances to kill your totems and eat a mouthful of flame shocks as I prepare for the impending 50K damage Lava burst medley I'm going to suffer if I don't lock your entire team down before the end of your next cast.

Or after you begin charging me recklessly hoping for an AoE silence and i toss a 2second AB backed by a Pom AB thats going to hit your for somewhere around 80K dmg.

No no, we can throw way to much pain to say "but I'm just gonna walk up and PBAoE silence you". Remember me talking about my priests AoE fear... and how that toon is a total sacrifice when I attempt that... :)


There is nothing wrong with theorycrafting. I spent a month arguing about which classes to make and decdied on 25 Shaman 1 Pal. Looks my time "theorycrafting" wasn't a total waste. If you are not interested in discussing theory then don't click on the thread. If you think my comments are worthless then put me on ignor.

Aye, theorycrafting is a fun exercise when done right and can often lead to improved strategy and macro ideas. As long as people aren't gonna tell me things like, they are going to walk 40 yards into a pack of mages to perform a PBAoE for an opening move. I know my ideas don't always work. I got a moonkin, priest, 3x mage group into the 1650's at the start of the season and have gone down ever since, so it's not like my ideas are great either. I want to improve my PvP tactics and I can't think of a better place to start than some ideas from this community.

[Bigfish]

There's nothing wrong with theory crafting, but you have to remember 90% of anything you come up with overlooks some actual portion of the application of the idea, has already been tested and proven to fail, and under no circumstances does it ever trump experience. The idea in question has to be actually executed before you can start going off about how it is such a great idea.

That said, I'll be the first to say that statement constantly bites me in the ass.

[simpletom]

its a no brainer to who would win this fight, its not even a question of skills. there is a very good reason Ellay chose to play his shaman over his mages for pvp, its along the same reason Xzin decided to not level his mages in tbc.

if it were a question of skills would be very insteresting but as Ellay has the 5v5 arena skills on him where as Xzins skill lies in bg, i would put money on Ellay winning.

just as long as he can get within the 45 yards ofc or he doesnt stand a chance right?...

[glo]

its a no brainer to who would win this fight, its not even a question of skills. there is a very good reason Ellay chose to play his shaman over his mages for pvp, its along the same reason Xzin decided to not level his mages in tbc.

if it were a question of skills would be very insteresting but as Ellay has the 5v5 arena skills on him where as Xzins skill lies in bg, i would put money on Ellay winning.

just as long as he can get within the 45 yards ofc or he doesnt stand a chance right?...He would never be able to move those 5 yards though, it's impossible. Right name removed guy? =P

[Moorea]

There is nothing wrong with theorycrafting. I spent a month arguing about which classes to make and decdied on 25 Shaman 1 Pal. Looks my time "theorycrafting" wasn't a total waste. If you are not interested in discussing theory then don't click on the thread. If you think my comments are worthless then put me on ignor.

LOL... you could have spent 1 month to learn the game instead (by getting a few duos of different classes to 60), instead you just wasted 7 months and got nowhere - oh and btw having a group of 25 shamans and 1 pally is useless and absurd (4 shamans and 1 pally is good for 5 man content - but there is no 26 man content... you don't need 1 tank when you have 25 shamans behind...)

[Stealthy]

And this thread is now well and truly derailed. Looks like we need some good old

http://mahopa.de/bilder/funny-forum-pictures/thread-lock.jpg