Jamba Follow Strobing vs. WoW TOS

[CommanderChaos]

OK, since I've seen this mentioned so many times lately, I feel compelled to ask this question: Why is Jamba follow strobing not considered a violation of WoW's terms of service? I don't want to rock anyone's boat if there isn't a problem, but frankly I don't dare use Jamba at all because of this feature. Anyone have thoughts on this?

[elsegundo]

OK, since I've seen this mentioned so many times lately, I feel compelled to ask this question: Why is Jamba follow strobing not considered a violation of WoW's terms of service? I don't want to rock anyone's boat if there isn't a problem, but frankly I don't dare use Jamba at all because of this feature. Anyone have thoughts on this?question: why do you think its against the TOS?

[Svpernova09]

Moved to Macros & Addons.

[CommanderChaos]

question: why do you think its against the TOS? Seems a fair question, since I brought it up ;) Maybe my understanding of how it works is faulty; but doesn't it send a signal to the clones to follow every second? So if I walk away from the computer for a minute, there will still be a command sent every second to the clients. It's automatic. One doesn't have to press a button to make it happen each time.

[Hor]

It's an AddOn. It can't do anything that isn't allowed by Blizzard code. If it was a piece of 3rd party software, ie if Keyclone did it instead of the AddOn, then I'd be curious. However, since it's something that works as an AddOn, I don't see how it could possibly be against the TOS.

[CommanderChaos]

It's an AddOn. It can't do anything that isn't allowed by Blizzard code. If it was a piece of 3rd party software, ie if Keyclone did it instead of the AddOn, then I'd be curious. However, since it's something that works as an AddOn, I don't see how it could possibly be against the TOS.I've certainly seen that language used in reference to Macros, where such things as if/then statements and time delays are not possible. But you're right, Blizzard also has full control of the API used for AddOns, and can change any of those features at any time. My concern is in the apparent crossover use of lua to program some Macro functionality that isn't permitted in a standalone Macro.

I've just gone back and researched some blue warcraft forum posts. The language is pretty clear that if it's an AddOn, not a separate executable, then Blizzard explicitly permits its use. I can shut up now.

[elsegundo]

darn... i came back too late! problem has been resolved without me. =[

[Souca]

Just to add something to this, if you look at the lua functions used for targeting you will get an idea of how much trouble Blizzard goes to to define what an addon, or macro, can do. If it is something that Blizzard doesn't want done, i.e. looting without a mouse click, then you can't do it. Things like targeting are okay at times, but you have to make them a secure function and secure functions can only be changed out of combat.

Follow is oddly one of those things that can be done in many ways. If they didn't want it done, you wouldn't be able to. Now stopping a follow, that can't be done without a key press ;)

There is a good list of the APIs here ('http://www.wowwiki.com/World_of_Warcraft_API') . The ones listed PROTECTED give you an idea of some things that only Blizzard UI can do.

- Souca -

[Vyndree]

It can't do anything that isn't allowed by Blizzard code.

If they didn't want it done, you wouldn't be able to.

Just because you CAN do it with the built-in macros or API doesn't mean you SHOULD.

There's only so much you can prevent, and there's the never ending battle of problem, patch, fix, find new problem. So I wouldn't take "it works" to mean "it's ok to use", particularly if there's no actual confirmation of the functionality and/or conflicting information (i.e. GM conversations regarding delays, loops and timers -- which can always be found on the GM conversations wiki ('http://dual-boxing.com/wiki/index.php/GM_Conversations')).


...such things as if/then statements and time delays are not possible

While researching a bit on /click, I did find someone posting a way to insert a delay into the normal /macro interface (which we all know is a big no-no). So the argument that "it's in the in-game macro interface, it's ok" can be nullified:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=14697300474&postId=146958980971&sid=1

/cast MySpell
/script local t = GetTime(); while GetTime() - t < 6 do end
/cast MySpell2

Try it in your next raid. I'm sure you'll love it. Just change the "6" to whatever delay, in seconds, you want.

Disclaimer: Use at your own risk. I take no responsibility for any consequential actions which may occur from running the above code.
Like I said, delays are bannable. DO NOT USE this code.

"I can, therefore I should" is a poor argument. We have blues saying that "delays are bad", and we have an addon that utilizes delays. I'm not saying "I know this addon is bad", but merely saying "I don't know that this addon is good". It is a subtle but important difference.

OP: As a general rule, if you are ever concerned about whether functionality is OK/not OK -- your best bet is to ask an official source before using it.

[Sam DeathWalker]

Ya true but on the other hand its kinda in their court to make the in game scripting tools "cheat proof". They have no control over 3rd party applicaitons but they have full control over their in game product. Based on that I wouldn't really be overly concerned about getting banned for "illegal" add ons, based on the in game scripting tools. Has anyone ever?

And at any rate the auto follow thing isn't really all that helpfull. You want to hit auto follow right after you loot (if your main is not looting), not at some random intervals. I don't use it, just have a key near my trackball to hit after looting or when I want to autofollow.

Also TONS of add ons do repetitive searchs for like enemies in your area (obviously the code does it at some interval), items for sale in AH, and almost any kind of add on that warns you about somethign has to be checking at spicific intervals. Even threat has to be monitored at intervals.

[algol]

"I can, therefore I should" is a poor argument.
Very true. But also there's the announced policy that they will simply remove any functionality they don't want addons to have access to. But OTOH again, you can build an addon that spams the tar out of /2 or that automatically harasses random people and get yourself in trouble that way. So...use your head and make sure you don't talk yourself into something you can't talk yourself out of later.

Something like Jamba follow strobing that works within the API and only operates to help workaround glitches in the game that cause /follow not to work as intended? Probably fine.

[elsegundo]

if follow strobe is automation, then auto follow after combat should be automation as well.

[Vyndree]

But also there's the announced policy that they will simply remove any functionality they don't want addons to have access to.

Like I said, they're very clear about delays... And I'm not saying anyone's going to get banned, Sam. I simply said that you can't make the claim that "it's in the API, it's legal". There are ways to very clearly break the ToU/EULA while using hte in-game API.

For a very simple example:

/y SPAM SPAM SPAM
/y SPAM SPAM SPAM
/y SPAM SPAM SPAM
/y SPAM SPAM SPAM
/y SPAM SPAM SPAM
/y SPAM SPAM SPAM

Congrats -- you are using the in-game macro system and still breaking the rules. Is it Blizzard's responsibility to make sure spamming is impossible to do using the in-game API? No. You agreed not to spam when you clicked "I accept" to the ToU/Eula every patch and when you first installed.

You can swear using the in-game commands. You can write a script with a delay in it (see spoiler in previous post). You can harass people using the in-game commands. It's your responsibility to make sure your actions don't violate the rules -- Blizzard helps you help yourself through limitations in the in-game API, but that doesn't mean they were omnipotent in protecting you from yourself. If I made that spam macro above and told Blizzard "But, you allow it in your built in macro system! It's legal!"... I would still get hit with the penalty volcano of bansticks/warnings.

People get banned for swearing regardless of whether the profanity filter is on or off. You get alot of "but, the profanity filter is there, so I can swear all I want" arguments on the CS forums, but that doesn't excuse their behavior. Just like spamming and getting booted off-server automagically won't prevent you from getting actioned for spamming.

So, anyway -- I'm not saying anyone's going to get banned, I'm simply saying that it CANNOT be inferred that "if I can do it using the API/Macro System, it is guaranteed to be OK". I'm also saying "If you're worried, ASK a OFFICIAL source".

Minimap Ping was a bug in the API, and was fixed. Nobody got banned because Blizzard decided it was an honest mistake. The same thing could happen here, or it could be an acceptable use as decided by Blizzard, or it could be bannable. None of us can honestly say with 100% certainty what it is, therefore -- the only obvious action is to ask someone who can respond in an official capacity.

So, I'm totally fine with what algol is saying: He says it is PROBABLY ok, which is opinion. Saying that it's allowed because "the API lets me" or "the macro system lets me" is a false statement, and the only one I'm arguing with. :)


Also TONS of add ons do repetitive searchs for like enemies in your area (obviously the code does it at some interval)
IMO, this seems shady. I use VanasKOS, but it only tells me an enemy is in the area if it a) does something visible in the combat log (which is simply parsing existing information sent to my PC) or b) I mouse over the target

items for sale in AH
I don't use the bottomscanner feature of Auctioneer, if that's what you're talking about. I know auto-buying things is against the rules, however -- it must be initiated by a "buy this" click from the user. You can't just continually scan and auto-buy, you must actually be the one clicking the "ok, buy this" button. From what I understand (though I may be wrong), BottomScanner is simply doing some sorting on the state of the auctions, and prompting you with a "buy" button which you need invoke/click if you want to purchase the item.

and almost any kind of add on that warns you about somethign has to be checking at spicific intervals. Even threat has to be monitored at intervals.
You might be misinterpreting this -- for one, the combat log does a great job of informing you of changes in state. You don't need to purposefully monitor something when it feeds you the information on its own. Furthermore, threat is a state that cannot be dynamically altered by the user directly -- so you're simply using an addon that reports the state of a creature but doesn't alter anything in-game. Much like a CPU monitoring program shows you how much processor time different programs are using -- it's not automatic unless it was attempting to dynamically load-balance multiple processors. Reporting on a given state of an object is not automation since you are never altering what that state is.

So if the addon simply said "YOU BROKE FOLLOW!", all it's doing is reporting on the current state of the object. If it's CHANGING the state of the follower, that COULD be considered an action (granted, a non-GCD invoking action). Therefore, it's state manipulation and not reporting. Which is why I think the OP's concern is legitimate, and that he/she should investigate before using something that concerns them.

[Souca]

Quoted from "Souca"
If they didn't want it done, you wouldn't be able to.



Just because you CAN do it with the built-in macros or API doesn't mean you SHOULD./sigh

I'll admit I'm a little frustrated, but I wouldn't say I'm mad. While I could have phrased my reply better, I do not like how a single line quote is used to extrapolate the meaning of my post, especially since it doesn't represent my intent.

I provided a source of APIs as an example of what can and can't be done. I left it as an exercise for the reader to determine if they felt it was in the realm of things Blizzard would allow. I will admit I inferred it was acceptable based on the behaviors that currently exist involving targetting and the follow commands as they are written the API. I never talked about delays, spamming or justification of exploits or other behavior because one can.

In the future I'll be sure to have my lawyer review my posts.

- Souca -

[algol]

So if the addon simply said "YOU BROKE FOLLOW!", all it's doing is reporting on the current state of the object.

I vaguely remember /follow being on a short list of "protected functions" or something like that? Maybe it was "safe functions"? My memory's a bit fuzzy on the topic. I think the list is mostly emotes & chat functions. I mostly remember being slightly confused that something that seems like an action wasn't being treated like most others.

[Souca]

So if the addon simply said "YOU BROKE FOLLOW!", all it's doing is reporting on the current state of the object.
I vaguely remember /follow being on a short list of "protected functions" or something like that? Maybe it was "safe functions"? My memory's a bit fuzzy on the topic. I think the list is mostly emotes & chat functions. I mostly remember being slightly confused that something that seems like an action wasn't being treated like most others.The command I have used in my addon is:

FollowUnit ('http://www.wowwiki.com/API_FollowUnit')("unit ('http://www.wowwiki.com/UnitId')") - Follow an ally with the specified UnitID

It is the only movement function that is not protected. This is the reason my initial post was written the way it was. Looking at the list of movement functions ('http://www.wowwiki.com/World_of_Warcraft_API#Movement_Functions') WoWwiki, you can come to your own conclusion.

- Souca -

[Vyndree]

I'll admit I'm a little frustrated, but I wouldn't say I'm mad. While I could have phrased my reply better, I do not like how a single line quote is used to extrapolate the meaning of my post, especially since it doesn't represent my intent.

Don't take my stance as an attack -- far from it. I'm simply attempting to clarify certain logical inconsistencies.

The argument that Blizzard protects its own API calls that it doesn't want users fussing with in-combat is a legitimate one, but not totalitarian. The only issue I am making is that, while Blizzard can PREVENT you from doing SOME things they don't want you to do, that's not to say that everything you CAN do is ACCEPTABLE.

Call me a nut, but I took two symbolic logic courses in college just because I liked it so much. So I wanted to make the distinction that PreventedAPI therefore NotOK is not equivalent to NotPreventedAPI therefore OK.

Basically... P --> !O does not mean !P --> O.

If Blizzard didn't want things done, I would assume they would TRY to make it difficult, if not impossible, to do so. However, creative uses of various API doesn't always make those uses kosher the first time around, therefore (since Blizz uses a patching system), they will attempt to keep the API's as robust as possible given restraints on time, cost, and difficulty. That means, there COULD (but may not always) exist a known or unknown rulebreaking action that can be done using the game's API -- doesn't mean there IS, or there WAS, or there IS GOING TO BE -- but there COULD. Therefore, totalitarian statements about what Blizzard "wants" based on the existing API are erroneous, or, at the very least, ambiguously misleading since Blizzards wants and the state of the API are dynamic based on the patching system and the history of the API system (which continues to change each patch).

In short: The rules make the API (as best they can), but the API doesn't make the rules.

Anyway, like I said -- I'm not trying to criticise anyone in particular or offend anyone, I'm simply taking a rather misleading series of statements that seems to re-appear quite often as a "general rule" accepted by the community, and add a dash of devil's advocate and constructive logic.

I'm certain a nontrivial amount of effort is required to make the APIs the way they are, and I don't think Blizzard's been careless on their part. I simply think that using the API to determine what the rules are is a bit circular and potentially dangerous.

[Souca]

I'll admit I'm a little frustrated, but I wouldn't say I'm mad. While I could have phrased my reply better, I do not like how a single line quote is used to extrapolate the meaning of my post, especially since it doesn't represent my intent.Don't take my stance as an attack -- far from it. I'm simply attempting to clarify certain logical inconsistencies.

The argument that Blizzard protects its own API calls that it doesn't want users fussing with in-combat is a legitimate one, but not totalitarian. The only issue I am making is that, while Blizzard can PREVENT you from doing SOME things they don't want you to do, that's not to say that everything you CAN do is ACCEPTABLE.

Call me a nut, but I took two symbolic logic courses in college just because I liked it so much. So I wanted to make the distinction that PreventedAPI therefore NotOK is not equivalent to NotPreventedAPI therefore OK.

Basically... P --> !O does not mean !P --> O.

If Blizzard didn't want things done, I would assume they would TRY to make it difficult, if not impossible, to do so. However, creative uses of various API doesn't always make those uses kosher the first time around, therefore (since Blizz uses a patching system), they will attempt to keep the API's as robust as possible given restraints on time, cost, and difficulty. That means, there COULD (but may not always) exist a known or unknown rulebreaking action that can be done using the game's API -- doesn't mean there IS, or there WAS, or there IS GOING TO BE -- but there COULD. Therefore, totalitarian statements about what Blizzard "wants" based on the existing API are erroneous, or, at the very least, ambiguously misleading since Blizzards wants and the state of the API are dynamic based on the patching system and the history of the API system (which continues to change each patch).

In short: The rules make the API (as best they can), but the API doesn't make the rules.

Anyway, like I said -- I'm not trying to criticise anyone in particular or offend anyone, I'm simply taking a rather misleading series of statements that seems to re-appear quite often as a "general rule" accepted by the community, and add a dash of devil's advocate and constructive logic.

I'm certain a nontrivial amount of effort is required to make the APIs the way they are, and I don't think Blizzard's been careless on their part. I simply think that using the API to determine what the rules are is a bit circular and potentially dangerous.I didn't take it as an attack, like I said I was just frustrated. Often times what one thinks, what one intends to type, what is typed and what you mean end up distinct. In looking back on my post it ended up different than I had intended. Your quote seemed to grab at the flaw in my explanation and combined with the other quotes and statements that really weren't in reference to my post just was a little to much for me. I tend to take things a little too personal, so I'm sure a lot of the angst was supplied on my end.

While I don't believe one can determine Blizzard's stance or intent from the APIs, in the case of /follow, I do think one can make an inference. This inference isn't guaranteed to be correct; caveat emptor. The part I didn't communicate was that I've used the API in question, and given the way the API is written, I made an inferrence. Since chances are people won't look at links, I'll quote the section here:
Movement Functions
Use with caution - movement started by a script must be stopped by script. Keys/Mouse will not stop movement. These functions no longer work ('http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?FN=wow-interface-customization&T=169829&P=1') (fail silently) in patch 1.6 if NOT triggered from a hardware event (just like spell casts). As of patch 1.10 many of these functions were protected for use of only Blizzard signed code
PROTECTED CameraOrSelectOrMoveStart ('http://www.wowwiki.com/API_CameraOrSelectOrMoveStart')() - Begin "Left click" in the 3D world. (1.10 - Protected)
PROTECTED CameraOrSelectOrMoveStop ('http://www.wowwiki.com/API_CameraOrSelectOrMoveStop')([stickyFlag]) - End "Left click" in the 3D world. (1.10 - Protected)
FollowUnit ('http://www.wowwiki.com/API_FollowUnit')("unit ('http://www.wowwiki.com/UnitId')") - Follow an ally with the specified UnitID
PROTECTED JumpOrAscendStart ('http://www.wowwiki.com/API_JumpOrAscendStart')() - Makes the player jump.
PROTECTED AscendStop ('http://www.wowwiki.com/API_AscendStop')() - Called when you release the jump key.
PROTECTED MoveBackwardStart ('http://www.wowwiki.com/API_MoveBackwardStart') - The player begins moving backward at the specified time.
PROTECTED MoveBackwardStop ('http://www.wowwiki.com/API_MoveBackwardStop') - The player stops moving backward at the specified time.
PROTECTED MoveForwardStart ('http://www.wowwiki.com/API_MoveForwardStart') - The player begins moving forward at the specified time.
PROTECTED MoveForwardStop ('http://www.wowwiki.com/API_MoveForwardStop') - The player stops moving forward at the specified time.
PROTECTED StrafeLeftStart ('http://www.wowwiki.com/API_StrafeLeftStart') - The player begins strafing left at the specified time.
PROTECTED StrafeLeftStop ('http://www.wowwiki.com/API_StrafeLeftStop') - The player stops strafing left at the specified time.
PROTECTED StrafeRightStart ('http://www.wowwiki.com/API_StrafeRightStart') - The player begins strafing right at the specified time.
PROTECTED StrafeRightStop ('http://www.wowwiki.com/API_StrafeRightStop') - The player stops strafing right at the specified time.
PROTECTED ToggleAutoRun ('http://www.wowwiki.com/API_ToggleAutoRun') - Turns auto-run on or off
ToggleMouseMove ('http://www.wowwiki.com/index.php?title=API_ToggleMouseMove&action=edit&redlink=1')()
PROTECTED ToggleRun ('http://www.wowwiki.com/API_ToggleRun') - Toggle between running and walking.
PROTECTED TurnLeftStart ('http://www.wowwiki.com/API_TurnLeftStart') - The player starts turning left at the specified time.
PROTECTED TurnLeftStop ('http://www.wowwiki.com/API_TurnLeftStop') - The player stops turning left at the specified time.
PROTECTED TurnOrActionStart ('http://www.wowwiki.com/API_TurnOrActionStart')() - Begin "Right Click" in the 3D world. (1.10 - Protected)
PROTECTED TurnOrActionStop ('http://www.wowwiki.com/API_TurnOrActionStop')() - End "Right Click" in the 3D world. (1.10 - Protected)
PROTECTED TurnRightStart ('http://www.wowwiki.com/API_TurnRightStart') - The player starts turning right at the specified time.
PROTECTED TurnRightStop ('http://www.wowwiki.com/API_TurnRightStop') - The player stops turning right at the specified time. FollowUnit and ToggleMouseMove are the only APIs that aren't protected. This doesn't prove anything, it's just the direction my interpretation came from.

Until the PTR you couldn't loot without a mouse click, now you can. Guess we can't even count on not being able to do something meaning we shouldn't be able to ;)

The OP has every right to be concerned, it is their accounts after all. I just think at times we have gotten a little too paranoid about being banned and unless a Blue tells us that every click and keypress is okay we can't do anything; but that's another topic all together.

- Souca -

[Vyndree]

I just think at times we have gotten a little too paranoid about being banned and unless a Blue tells us that every click and keypress is okay we can't do anything; but that's another topic all together.

I've always been that way. ;) Which is why I hardware 'box. ;)

[Chorizotarian]

While researching a bit on /click, I did find someone posting a way to insert a delay into the normal /macro interface (which we all know is a big no-no). So the argument that "it's in the in-game macro interface, it's ok" can be nullified:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=14697300474&postId=146958980971&sid=1
/cast MySpell
/script ...
/cast MySpell2


I thought /script and /run were disabled in combat. (I could check of course, but I'm too lazy.)

[Vyndree]

While researching a bit on /click, I did find someone posting a way to insert a delay into the normal /macro interface (which we all know is a big no-no). So the argument that "it's in the in-game macro interface, it's ok" can be nullified:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=14697300474&postId=146958980971&sid=1
/cast MySpell
/script ...
/cast MySpell2


I thought /script and /run were disabled in combat. (I could check of course, but I'm too lazy.)

I have no idea, though from the followings in the thread it looks like it does work.



That don't work ;-) Which is good, since it's an attempt at circumventing the anti-botting procedures in place.

This freezes the game world for X seconds, and then casts the last spell.

If it casts the first spell, freezes for X seconds then casts the next spell...doesn't it do what it intended to? (Albeit making your game play completely unenjoyable?)

I wouldn't try it, but I trust that the folks who frequent the macros/UI forum know what they're talking about. :)

[Fizzler]

Do not be fooled to think that just because it is an addon that it does not break the TOS. A good example would be the famous addon that allows you to interpret opposing faction chat.

I personally have always thought the /follow after combat seemed a bit iffy but who knows.

[Jafula]

Not wanting to get involved in the debate particularly, but thought I'd let you know that the next version of Jamba (0.5) is modular.

This means that Jamba-Follow (the part that has the strobing in it) can be removed from Jamba easily should you wish not to use that particular feature.

If there is enough demand, I (or another) could release an alternative Jamba-Follow without the strobing feature.

[algol]

Not wanting to get involved in the debate particularly, but thought I'd let you know that the next version of Jamba (0.5) is modular.

This means that Jamba-Follow (the part that has the strobing in it) can be removed from Jamba easily should you wish not to use that particular feature.

If there is enough demand, I (or another) could release an alternative Jamba-Follow without the strobing feature.Modularity is awesome, but I don't think that would affect this. Assuming for a moment that the feature is taboo - a player can already simply not turn strobing on.

[zanthor]

FFS Guys - I can point to thousands of addons that use delays - thousands that don't get users banned.

You can go harrass blizzard every time you want to sniffle and blow your nose - all thats going to happen is multiboxers will paint themselves and their community as a high maintainance portion of the community and end up losing many otherwise fine features.

Blizzard has programatically blocked a LOT of features that they don't want abused - and i'm sure they will block more in the future - but at the same time they are adding other features that will make our lives easier (IE: Interact with target keybind slated for 3.1). If we continue asking them to attend to every little question that a modicum of common sense can answer - it will not end well for any of us.

You can make a follow strobe addon in about 10 lines of code, 100% within the blizzard API, 100% using documented features of their UI that are used in nearly every mod currently in use. If they didn't want this to work, they would simply protect the FollowUnit ('http://www.wowwiki.com/API_FollowUnit') function.

[Daki]

Yeah I am not sure, but I have a feeling that follow strobing is against the ToS, we dont 'click' a button every second, but to the OP: You can turn off strobe, the rest of the addon, as far as I can tell is safe and 'legal'

[zanthor]

Offtopic but relevant:


http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=52857672&pageNo=1&sid=1#8
Nobody is being banned. One of the first things GMs do after a new patch is recommend that people disable addons, because they often cause problems if not properly updated. With the exception of cross-faction communication addons and malicious addons, if it works, it's okay to run.

Remember that if there is a separate program running while WoW is running, that watches or interacts with the game, then that is against the ToS, but addons without any executables are fine.

I challenge anyone to produce firsthand knowledge of a player being banned for a UI mod that is written 100% inside blizzard's LUA code.

I personally wrote a mod that crashed the server 12 times in 4 days, it was totally accidental but when trying to get it to the devs so they would KNOW what was crashing the server I had to use contacts that work with Apple to get it in through the Blizzard liaison since the GM's consistently told me it was impossible for a UI mod to crash the server.

[Vyndree]

I challenge anyone to produce firsthand knowledge of a player being banned for a UI mod that is written 100% inside blizzard's LUA code.

I personally wrote a mod that crashed the server 12 times in 4 days, it was totally accidental but when trying to get it to the devs so they would KNOW what was crashing the server I had to use contacts that work with Apple to get it in through the Blizzard liaison since the GM's consistently told me it was impossible for a UI mod to crash the server.

There was an addon that allowed cross-faction speech. I'm not sure that anyone got banned before they "suggested" that the author remove the addon (and he/she did), but it certainly was against the ToS. I've posted an in-game /script that allows an ability to be looped using a timer -- I won't repost it yet again, but it exists and is very clearly a violation of the rules.

People have admitted to account sharing and (sometimes) don't get banned for it. Doesn't make it any more right. Delays are, very clearly, against the rules -- whether or not it will actually get you banned is up to blizzard but it's certainly not shameful for us to be good representatives of the rules or at least, the best representatives of the rules as we know how to be.

If you're comfortable using an addon (which utilizes the in-game APIs) that contains delays, then you can -- just like you can use a Logitech G15 or Nostromo N52 -- and it's up to your discretion to utilize the portions of the device/addon that contain delays. However, IF anyone were to get banned for using their judgement, then don't anyone say they weren't forewarned or were misinformed. As a community, people have the right to know that the official word on the street is "Delays are bad ('http://dual-boxing.com/wiki/index.php/GM_Conversations#Regarding_Delays_.26_Timers_in_ou t-of-game_Macros')" and the general assumption is that "in-game API is (generally) good". People can make their own decisions or follow up with Blizzard as they please, since it is their right to do so and to deal with the consequences (or lack thereof).

[algol]

Let me post this again in blue text so it's clear that it's an actual statement of policy.


Nobody is being banned. One of the first things GMs do after a new patch is recommend that people disable addons, because they often cause problems if not properly updated. With the exception of cross-faction communication addons and malicious addons, if it works, it's okay to run.

Remember that if there is a separate program running while WoW is running, that watches or interacts with the game, then that is against the ToS, but addons without any executables are fine.

There are two very specific exceptions to what addons are legal, neither of which involves programmatic delays.

Jamba's follow strobing is 100% legal.

Thanks for finding that, Zanthor.

[Vyndree]

A addon that utilizes delays COULD (I'm not saying it is or isn't, merely that it isn't clear) be considered malicious.

That decision is Blizzard's -- they've already told us "delays are bad, mmkay". It's up to the user to decide whether that is or isn't a risk based on their own consideration. The blue post, while an excellent one, still doesn't specifically say anything about Jamba strobing.

I feel the key here is whether or not /follow -- a non-GCD inducing action -- is considered an automate-able action. That's not clear. The specific blue post quoted involved addons that did simple information gathering and did not alter the state of the game. Remember that the WoW API changes every patch -- so something that was kosher last patch may not be in a future patch -- bannable? Who knows. My PERSONAL OPINION is that it wouldn't be, but I'm not going to tell people that if I'm not 100% sure my statement won't impact the safety of their accounts.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=52857672&sid=1&pageNo=1#14 (same thread)


Malicious meaning what (maybe an example?)

Oh, say, a button that crashes other clients, or maybe sends misleading chat messages...
Automation is generally considered a malicious activity. If delays are automation, and IF Jamba's follow strobing is considered a delay, then utilizing Jamba's follow strobing would be utilizing automation. (Please very carefully note that this is a CONDITIONAL statement.)

[algol]

I don't think the delay thing really applies in the first place if there's no input from the user involved. One keypress, one action right? No keypresses...well, if I finish that, nearly every addon there is would be illegal. Policy towards actions which must be user-initiated and towards actions which can be taken using the API is necessarily different to some extent since they make that distinction in the first place.

While you could stretch "malicious" that far, and we've seen companies try to do similar...it's really far-fetched. At this point I feel more than confident enough to keep using it, especially since I know of no one being banned for programmatic delays in addons - which appear to be common - not even by hearsay. The intent is also only to workaround a bug in the game - random follow dropping. And if they're going to stretch "malicious" that far, nothing I do is going to be safe anyway, so I might as well not worry.

Barring any potential combination of API functions that allows for actual automation (which they seem to have thoroughly purged for the time being), or using it for things like spamming or harassment which would get you a vacation anyway...I don't see a risk. I don't think that the delays possible within the API framework are themselves automation of the negative sort, any more than running the script is in the first place. It necessarily automates the execution of that script...but that's not at all the same as the thing that gets you banned. The kind that gets you banned is the actual automation of your character such that it can play without human intervention - aka botting.

[zanthor]

I've posted an in-game /script that allows an ability to be looped using a timer -- I won't repost it yet again, but it exists and is very clearly a violation of the rules.It's no secret that you can build timed scripts in the LUA interface, If you would like to post a list of addon's you currently run I'll give you examples from them that show this timing and looping being used. I really appreciate all you do for the community Vyndree but in this case you are speaking as an authority (or at least a percieved authority) on a topic you clearly do not understand well. Your responses are simply FUD about a perfectly legal function that exists in many different UI mods around the game.

I'd post to the UI and macro forums if I could get the bloody things to authenticate me, gotta love maintainance day.

[Vyndree]

No keypresses...well, if I finish that, nearly every addon there is would be illegal.

Not true -- take Decursive for example. It started out as a "spam this button and I'll target the decurse targets for you" to the current grid of funny looking boxes that you MUST manually click.

The only addons I use are merely organizers of information. For example, SCT which organizes important combat text information into an overlay over my character's head. TourGuide, which tells me where to pickup/turning quests but requires that I actually perform those actions myself. DamageMeters, which sorts through combat text to find and reorganize damage information. None of these perform any actions.

Which is why, I reiterate, the key here is whether /follow, a non-GCD inducing macro action, is still an action. According to the precedent set by Decursive/Healbot et al, there are abilities which are non-GCD inducing which are still considered actions (and are, rightly, protected within the API) -- that's targeting. So then there's the twist -- IF /follow is considered an "action" in the same way, then it COULD (but is not certain to be) bannable and might (and probably should) be removed from access within the API. If not, then it is not considered an action capable of automating, and should be fine to use. In fact, I can't think of a single addon that doesn't fall into the category of "information sorters" except for.. you guessed it... jamba. Bar mods organize your buttons into layouts, but still require clicks. Bag mods sort your bags, auction mods sort the auction prices, boss mods organize combat text/timers but take no actions themselves. They all require clicks to do actions -- the question remains: is /follow considered an action?

No matter what is said by us here, NONE of us -- not me, not any of the mods or users -- can guarantee that the addon, with 100% certainty, is not considered automation. Whether a user wants to use it is up to them, and whether a user wants to verify with a GM before they use is also up to them (and I don't want to see anyone discourage a user from being able to exercise their right to ask questions, particularly to a GM/Blizzard representative).


I know I seem like a dinosaur hardware boxer who is completely opposed to change, but keep in mind it's only been about a year since we've had any sort of confirmation on out-of-game software being kosher, and through persistence we got that confirmation. If we don't ask questions and keep making assumptions, it's only a matter of time before someone oversteps the line and gets banned based on improper advice. I feel like a broken record -- but I never claimed Jamba was bannable, or that Jamba strobing was wrong -- merely that, while it couldn't be said it's not wrong -- it similarly cannot be said that it's not right. I want to make that very clear -- the OP has the right to ask questions, same as anyone, and has the right to clear and complete information and, if opinion is given, clarity that it IS just opinion.


I really appreciate all you do for the community Vyndree but in this case you are speaking as an authority (or at least a percieved authority) on a topic you clearly do not understand well. Your responses are simply FUD about a perfectly legal function that exists in many different UI mods around the game.

I am merely listing facts. I repeat again: I never said Jamba was bannable, nor that Jamba strobing was even WRONG.

If you'd like to refute the facts, feel free. If you want to criticize my character, now that's a different story. I am not trying to wave "the sky is falling" flag -- in fact, I'm making it very carefully clear that is exactly what I am NOT doing. I am merely saying that any confirmation of Jamba's legality is OPINION based on the notion that ALL addons are acceptable merely because the API says so. I never said that any non-acceptable addon WILL result in a ban, simply that it MAY. And, once again, I never said Jamba was one of those non-acceptable addons.

I'm the little text at the end of your vitamin bottle that says "not approved by the FDA to treat or prevent any disease". That's ALL.

[algol]

No matter what is said by us here, NONE of us -- not me, not any of the mods or users -- can guarantee that the addon, with 100% certainty, is not considered automation. Whether a user wants to use it is up to them, and whether a user wants to verify with a GM before they use is also up to them (and I don't want to see anyone discourage a user from being able to exercise their right to ask questions, particularly to a GM/Blizzard representative).

On the other hand - that goes for any addon, since Blizzard doesn't endorse addons. I believe they explained this as the reason for the "you won't get banned for addons" blanket...it might help further if someone could find that in blue text (I can't :( ).

Keyclone's status is a HUGE anomaly...and still subject to prevarication.

As far as other uses of delays - do you recall the timer function for /say people were using to do skits? It wasn't just for /say...and **any addon** with multiple actions in sequence will have an expected execution time which could be computed - the last action being delayed by a relatively consistent amount of time. Delays, implicit or explicit, are present in any use of scripts.

The alternative to Jamba's method is to just spam /follow as fast as possible. Somehow I think they'd prefer the delay.

10 /follow
20 GOTO 10

O_o

[Vyndree]

No matter what is said by us here, NONE of us -- not me, not any of the mods or users -- can guarantee that the addon, with 100% certainty, is not considered automation. Whether a user wants to use it is up to them, and whether a user wants to verify with a GM before they use is also up to them (and I don't want to see anyone discourage a user from being able to exercise their right to ask questions, particularly to a GM/Blizzard representative).

On the other hand - that goes for any addon, since Blizzard doesn't endorse addons. I believe they explained this as the reason for the "you won't get banned for addons" blanket...it might help further if someone could find that in blue text (I can't :( ).

EXACTLY. Which is why, I've always said (even in my first few posts) that it's the purview of the user to judge whether or not they feel comfortable using that addon.

I think the OP's concern is legitimate, and that he/she should investigate before using something that concerns them.



Keyclone's status is a HUGE anomaly...and still subject to prevarication.
http://dual-boxing.com/wiki/index.php/GM_Conversations#Keyclone

Yup, keyclone is fine.
Just make absolutely certain that you're not making more than one keypress (for the purposes of the word 'keypress' this includes a single key press AND release with no delays), or including delays between key-presses with each action.
Essentially, if you could legally create the command as a functional macro within the default user interface, then it should be okay.

I don't see much prevarication or deviance from the truth in there. It's much more solid than the Jamba strobing issue, at least -- and it's a quotable resource rather than opinion.

AFAIK, Keyclone is the only program to receive a specific mention as "fine" by a GM, so it should be considered the exception to the rule. It's my personal opinion that the only reason it was done was because of Keyclone's history of making rule-abiding features its first priority, but... who knows. They could do it for another piece of software, I suppose. I just don't think it's likely.

EDIT: After re-reading I think you might've meant the exact same thing that I just said... in which case... I agree. ;) Keyclone's GM confirmation is unique at the moment. Sorry, I think I got snagged on "Keyclone's status" as meaning "Keyclone's legality status" rather than "Keyclone's legality statement from GM Malkorix"



As far as other uses of delays - do you recall the timer function for /say people were using to do skits? It wasn't just for /say...

Which could, where abused, still end up with a spam banstick. Again, up to the users to make sure they use, and don't abuse, the available API functionality.

[algol]

I don't see much prevarication or deviance from the truth in there.

You don't see the part where they say it's fine and then restate the general policy on acceptable third-party programs & hardware?

Keyclone is fine only in so far as it doesn't break any rules. All Malkorix really endorses is the general idea of a software multiplexer - Keyclone has no special dispensation if someone uses it to break the rules. For that matter, even Keyclone has its delay concerns. Nothing is safe, nothing gets you away from the same anti-automation rules. But I think that if you're working within the API framework you're as safe as you can come, certainly much, much more so than if you needed third-party tools. API-based tools have the implicit endorsement of being part of the game itself - and nothing else, not even Keyclone, has that.

The only rules that remain to govern API-based addons are the same rules that govern all in-game behavior. Therefore my reasoning is as follows:

Jamba /follow doesn't do something I would get banned for if I did it manually.
Jamba /follow can be implemented using only Blizzard-released functions.
Therefore Jamba is 99.9999% likely to be legal, and would 99.9999% likely result in an official statement AGAINST it before they actually banned anyone.

Seeing as that puts me well past the probability of getting randomly permabanned for "botting" by a noob GM, I think I'm okay with it.

[Bigfish]

There was an addon that allowed cross-faction speech. I'm not sure that anyone got banned before they "suggested" that the author remove the addon (and he/she did), but it certainly was against the ToS. I've posted an in-game /script that allows an ability to be looped using a timer -- I won't repost it yet again, but it exists and is very clearly a violation of the rules.

Well, that got my attention. Did you post that somewhere else? I'm moderately curious how that can be scripted. Does it involve utilizing an add-on, or can it be done with the base UI? Or if you don't want to post it, could you at least explain how it worked? I mean, that's kind of an odd thing to be able to run a looped script.

[Vyndree]

I don't see much prevarication or deviance from the truth in there.

You don't see the part where they say it's fine and then restate the general policy on acceptable third-party programs & hardware?

Keyclone is fine only in so far as it doesn't break any rules. All Malkorix really endorses is the general idea of a software multiplexer - Keyclone has no special dispensation if someone uses it to break the rules. For that matter, even Keyclone has its delay concerns. Nothing is safe, nothing gets you away from the same anti-automation rules. But I think that if you're working within the API framework you're as safe as you can come, certainly much, much more so than if you needed third-party tools. API-based tools have the implicit endorsement of being part of the game itself - and nothing else, not even Keyclone, has that.

Malkorix said, and I quote "Keyclone is fine". He then reiterated the idea of the software multiplexer's acceptable use, which Keyclone clearly follows. Perhaps, since delays/scripts can be done with external programs (and perhaps, if it falls into this category, Jamba), he was warning that while use of Keyclone is OK, addition of a Logitech G15, Nostromo N52, or even AHK on top of Keyclone, would counteract the statement if those uses included delays.

From my (albeit external) understanding of Keyclone, Malkorix's followup second statements...

Just make absolutely certain that you're not making more than one keypress (for the purposes of the word 'keypress' this includes a single key press AND release with no delays), or including delays between key-presses with each action.
Essentially, if you could legally create the command as a functional macro within the default user interface, then it should be okay.
...do not apply to Keyclone -- there is no possible way to have Keyclone send more than one keypress with or without delays. So... where's this "obvious contention" that I've missed? Keyclone also does not store any macros, so that absolves the second statement. I still see no deviance from the truth -- I'd imagine the caveat was for future revisions of Keyclone that may, in the future or in combination with other 3rd party mods/addons/devices, include the capability for delays.

And they call me nitpicky.


The only rules that remain to govern API-based addons are the same rules that govern all in-game behavior. Therefore my reasoning is as follows:

Jamba /follow doesn't do something I would get banned for if I did it manually.

But the difference here is that you're NOT doing it manually. Each follow strobe happens without the precedent of a user's keypress.

The difference here is, with the built-in /macro functionality (granted, not the API) you MUST initiate a keypress every time you want to /follow someone, same as you would with targeting or trinketing -- they don't eat GCDs, but they still require user interaction. I honestly don't see it as much of a problem, as (if you were using Jamba strobing, I'd imagine) you could just put a /follow line along with your assist macro and /follow at every keypress -- or even /stopmacro [combat] /follow CharName to emulate Jamba's follow-out-of-combat functionality.

The contention is, Jamba does automatically and on a delay what normally must be done manually. That sounds like automation if it applied to anything with similar functionality (targeting, movement, action buttons).


Jamba /follow can be implemented using only Blizzard-released functions.
Therefore Jamba is 99.9999% likely to be legal, and would 99.9999% likely result in an official statement AGAINST it before they actually banned anyone.

And 99.99999% of all statistics are made up..... Making up numbers does not make an argument strong. I'd have been more inclined to allow you your opinion if you didn't spout numbers that don't have any solid basis. You can't take the two statements you just spouted and magically apply subjective numbers on its legality pulled from nowhere. Granted, you can say "From these two statements, I feel, or it is my opinion that it is safe to use Jamba", but that's opinion.

It's like me trying to make an argument that since the game was designed for solo boxers, and that world PvP against 5 multiboxed characters is no fun, that Multiboxing is 99.9999% wrong. I can say "I feel, or it is my opinion that multiboxing is wrong", but my "percent wrongness" thesis is not supported by the statements in my argument.

Or even, more appropriately, I could argue that /follow must normally be initiated with a user action, and that no user action occurs when utilizing Jamba strobe, therefore Jamba strobing is 99.9999% wrong. I'm sure you wouldn't be happy having to argue the logical inconsistencies of that sort of deduction.

I'm not making any claims that aren't backed up with facts -- in fact, I'm making no actual claims on Jamba's legality at all, merely that the level of confidence in Jamba is misleading opinion from fact.



Did you post that somewhere else? I'm moderately curious how that can be scripted.

It's hidden in a spoiler ('http://dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&postID=181797#post181797') earlier in this thread.
http://dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&postID=181797#post181797

[algol]

Malkorix's followup second statements...do not apply to Keyclone

Of course they do. The reason using Keyclone doesn't get us banned is that it STILL respects those boundaries. Blizzard's approval is and always has been dependent on that - and is given to the extent it is only because it respects those boundaries.


And 99.99999% of all statistics are made up.....

I expect it's a great deal less than all that.

But your objection seems irrelevant since I was expressing a confidence estimate, not statistical results taken from data analysis. See the part about "my reasoning is as follows"? Yeah. At that, there are people that 100% believe God exists too. That's not made up statistics either, just an expression of their confidence in their beliefs.

I think the chance of this being a problem is very, very close to zero, that the chance of other things being a problem is much higher, and that if they start handing out bans right and left for this in spite of prior statements of policy then I have less unreliable places to spend my entertainment budget. Thanks for raising the question as it could have been valid - but in light of the content of the thread at this point, I'm very confident that it just amounts to FUD.

[RobinGBrown]

Basically... P --> !O does not mean !P --> O.




Rational wiki explains it fairly well:

http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Correlation_does_not_equal_causation

Two events can consistently correlate with each other but not have any causal relationship. An example is the relationship between reading ability and shoe size across the whole population of the United States ('http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/United_States'). If someone performed such a survey they would find that the larger shoe sizes correlate with better reading ability, but this does not mean large feet cause good reading skills. Instead it is caused by the fact that young children have small feet and have not yet (or only recently) been taught to read

[Vyndree]

Malkorix's followup second statements...do not apply to Keyclone

Of course they do. The reason using Keyclone doesn't get us banned is that it STILL respects those boundaries. Blizzard's approval is and always has been dependent on that - and is given to the extent it is only because it respects those boundaries.

And where is the "prevarication"?

A summary of the statements would be that:
1) Keyclone, in its (then current) state was legal.
2) As long as the listed conditions are met, Keyclone should still be legal.

Since the conditions ARE met, then it should logically follow that Keyclone is still legal.

Would you say those statements are true? If so, there is no prevarication, since prevarication is deviance from truth. This is generally considered a logical argument.


As for 100% confidence -- that is my point. Confidence is an opinion, not a statistical fact. By obfuscating an opinion with opinion-based numerical analysis, you're playing off user's expectations that a statistical statement should be based on fact. The truth of the matter (and my argument), STILL, is "I am x% confident in my OPINION that..." and not "it is x% true that the FACTS are...".

It is incredibly misleading to take opinion, mix in a subjective opinion in the form of a numerical analysis, and hide the information that normally indicates opinion so that it is taken as fact. I'd be happy to leave this thread alone (as I've already said my piece long ago) as long as people don't mislead -- accidentally or otherwise -- people into thinking their statements are true factual summaries of actual authority. I, at least, make it a painstaking priority to be clear when I am regurgitating fact (usually, if not always, with resources) or spouting opinion.

I've challenged people to refute the facts that I've made in this thread, and haven't really seen anything. Perhaps those with a problem with "the generall acceptance that Vyndree is speaking as an authority" to wonder why that is... Perhaps because I generally am simply repeating and cross-referencing official statements? Perhaps because, when I do make an opinion I try to make it clear that it is an opinion (because I have gotten flack about that in the past)? Perhaps because I have a history of being as correct and precise as possible? Perhaps because I enjoy logic problems?

All I'm saying is, if my statements are generally taken as fact, it's not my doing (though it may be the result of a history of factual summaries and resource links). Fact is fact (and resources linked where appropriate), and opinion is clearly marked with "I think", "I feel", "FYI" and the like.


We're winding down the rabbit hole, so if you want to discuss further I'd be happy to try and regroup in a new thread in the OT forum if it doesn't have anything to do with Jamba strobing / WoW ToU. Or, you're always welcome to PM me.

[algol]

And where is the "prevarication"?

You mean the part where they say it's okay and immediately backpedal? We've been over this...but if you don't like my word choice, it doesn't really help the thread much to keep arguing it.

[Vyndree]

And where is the "prevarication"?

You mean the part where they say it's okay and immediately backpedal? We've been over this...but if you don't like my word choice, it doesn't really help the thread much to keep arguing it.

It wasn't a backpedal. Nothing in the 2nd statement contradicted what was said in the first. To backpedal would mean that the statements would have to contradict each other in some way (which would also imply "prevarication").

The second statement is a IF->THEN statement. It is quite different than saying "Keyclone is OK." and following up with "Keyclone is NOT ok" -- that's a contradiction. "Keyclone is OK", "IF software uses delays/timers, it is not OK" are two seperate but not contradictory statements.

It could be like me saying "It is raining today" and then saying "If it is raining, then I will have to wear my coat". The second statement has nothing to do with whether it is raining or not -- in fact, it is still raining. Whether I'm wearing a coat or not right now is also irrelevant, since they are two seperate statements and the second statement has nothing to do (since it is a conditional) with the current state of affairs. In fact, tomorrow I could be wearing a coat and it could NOT be raining and there STILL would be no "prevarication".

On a similar argument, I could say "Algol is not violating the WoW ToU/EULA" and follow up with "If algol were botting, he'd be violating the WoW ToU/EULA" -- as you can see, both statements are literally true -- but neither makes any prevarication about whether or not you're botting, or whether you WILL bot in the future. They merely 1) state that you are not, at the present time, violating the ToU/EULA -- and, 2) if you were to bot in the future, you would THEN be violating the ToU/Eula. As you can see, I'm not "backpedaling" at all, merely stating facts and following up with a conditional that (hopefully) will never occur in the future.

Like I said, you're tunneling the conversation into a totally different topic -- so if you want to continue it, create another thread and I'll be happy to continue the logic argument.