All heroics cleared 5 boxing

[Alemi]

So, tonight made it official after achievment spamming my guild.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg255/rek6779/5boxheroic.jpg

All heroics cleared with my dk/4 shamans. :) So, if anyone says something isn't boxable - they're wrong. :) Now to finish off these 11 achievements for Glory of the Hero.

[Ellay]

Very nice!!!! Wooot :) Possibly a multiboxer first ~!

I haven't touched Oculus at all since like the day after I hit 80, is the mount /follow change something that made this place much more enjoyable?

[ghonosyph and the moocrew]

forgive me for being dumb, but i havent been able to get mount following to work, can someone post a walkthru!? =)

[Alemi]

Very nice!!!! Wooot :) Possibly a multiboxer first ~!

I haven't touched Oculus at all since like the day after I hit 80, is the mount /follow change something that made this place much more enjoyable?God, yes. It was awful before. Without follow I'd say it be nearly impossible. Now, it's pretty easy. I just took a while cause I was dead set in getting one of the void achievements :)

The other one that was holding me up for a while was Bronzebeard in HoS, but after figuring out how to do it easily it's cake now (first cleared it last week and then cleared it again for the Sjonir achievement, and a 3rd time for the daily).

[Alemi]

forgive me for being dumb, but i havent been able to get mount following to work, can someone post a walkthru!? =)You can't follow the player when in a vehicle. i.e. /follow Playername

However, /follow party1 works just fine. It's the same thing I use when making a GY run too (since i use a nodead qualifier in my follow macro so if my main dies I can switch to the next in line)

[Dominian]

Very nice!!!! Wooot :) Possibly a multiboxer first ~!

I haven't touched Oculus at all since like the day after I hit 80, is the mount /follow change something that made this place much more enjoyable?

Indeed a impressive achivment!

ss2 cleared all heroics 28 nov 2009 apart from Oculus that is..

Seems like he did Oculus seperate on each char so its hard to say if he actually have defeated it as a boxer. Funkstar did oculus 3 weeks ago but its hard to tell who's actually first!

[ghonosyph and the moocrew]

thanks alemi!

[Gares]

Very nice!!!! Wooot :) Possibly a multiboxer first ~!

I haven't touched Oculus at all since like the day after I hit 80, is the mount /follow change something that made this place much more enjoyable?God, yes. It was awful before. Without follow I'd say it be nearly impossible. Now, it's pretty easy. I just took a while cause I was dead set in getting one of the void achievements :)

The other one that was holding me up for a while was Bronzebeard in HoS, but after figuring out how to do it easily it's cake now (first cleared it last week and then cleared it again for the Sjonir achievement, and a 3rd time for the daily).

Mind filling us in on the Bronzebeard Event? For the life of me I cannot get past this event at all.

[ss2]

good job on conquering that miserable pile of vehicular debauchery



Very nice!!!! Wooot :) Possibly a multiboxer first ~!

I haven't touched Oculus at all since like the day after I hit 80, is the mount /follow change something that made this place much more enjoyable?

Indeed a impressive achivment!

ss2 cleared all heroics 28 nov 2009 apart from Oculus that is..

Seems like he did Oculus seperate on each char so its hard to say if he actually have defeated it as a boxer. Funkstar did oculus 3 weeks ago but its hard to tell who's actually first!I haven't had 5 characters logged in at the same time since ... early January or so, so all my oculus activity was done the regular mortal way.

[Kaynin]

Very nice!!!! Wooot :) Possibly a multiboxer first ~!

I haven't touched Oculus at all since like the day after I hit 80, is the mount /follow change something that made this place much more enjoyable?

Are you kidding me, oculus is easier as a multibox now then it was as 5x solo players. :D

Either go 5x emerald drakes (by far the easiest set up, but the fight will take very long) or 5x bronze. If you quadbox, go 4x bronze and 5th (second player) on amber, unless the second player can add in on your amber rotation perfectly. But that has proved difficult for me with my friend. Dudecan't keep up with my temporal rotation, so we do 4x bronze + 1x amber.



I think funkstar was first but basicly, since the patch everyone can do it really. If someone did it pre-patch, now that would be impressive. (I didn't had the patience. :P )

[badashh]

[quote='ghonosyph and the moocrew',index.php?page=Thread&postID=178886#post178886]forgive me for being dumb, but i havent been able to get mount following to work, can someone post a walkthru!? =)You can't follow the player when in a vehicle. i.e. /follow Playername

Delete me

[badashh]

forgive me for being dumb, but i havent been able to get mount following to work, can someone post a walkthru!? =)You can't follow the player when in a vehicle. i.e. /follow Playername

However, /follow party1 works just fine. It's the same thing I use when making a GY run too (since i use a nodead qualifier in my follow macro so if my main dies I can switch to the next in line)

Actually this is wrong, you can do /follow PlayerName. I know this because this is how my guild does Malygos. All you have to do is type it out, and you're set. Now how you'd do the cast rotation for Oculus, well I'm not sure about that one.

[Bigfish]

All heroics cleared with my dk/4 shamans. So, if anyone says something isn't boxable - they're wrong. Now to finish off these 11 achievements for Glory of the Hero.

Boxable with 4 shamans and a DK. Some encounters are more difficult with a more diverse set up.

[puppychow]

ss2 cleared all the heroics first among multiboxers afaik, he even did oculus pre 3.08 and the /vehicle follow fix, which is crazy! But only 3-4 of you guys have done Oculus even since the patch (solo player), so awesome job!

Would love to hear the rotations you use for bronze drakes, I tried a few time this weekend and just wiped. For those who are trying, you need to turn off possession bars if you use something like Bartender/Macaroon, since you can't change abilities on possess bars, and write macros instead like these:

follow:
/follow <nameofmainplayer>

attack1:
/assist <nameofmainplayer>
/cast Shock Lance

attack2:
/assist youknow
/cast Temporal Rift

(last one only available after boss3 is dead)
attack3:
/assist youknow
/cast Stop Time

Drop these macros in various slots, I think you need to set it up so you can rotate Temporal Rift around and Stop Time so that only 1 person is casting it at a time, while the others are casting Shock Lance. But I never managed to get him below 80% after 3 tries and just kinda gave up since had to run to a friends birthday party. BTW the other bosses are cake, for boss #2 just have your group stack together on the outer edge somewhere, pull the boss, lust, burn him, he will die insanely quick and you may just have to strafe a little left/right once to avoid the beam fires. Most groups try the "run to center" strat and rotate but the edge strat is much, much simpler.

I would also love to hear any tricks to the Brann event in HoS, I did a few weeks ago and every time I got to the phase where the "mega laser" would start frying people I'd pretty much lose guys quickly and wipe - didn't matter if I spread out of grouped up. Are there spots where you can avoid the mega laser?

[Kaynin]

All heroics cleared with my dk/4 shamans. So, if anyone says something isn't boxable - they're wrong. Now to finish off these 11 achievements for Glory of the Hero.

Boxable with 4 shamans and a DK. Some encounters are more difficult with a more diverse set up.

But not impossible. ;)

[Bigfish]

But not impossible.

Depends. Some encounters *cough* Oculus*cough* really punish some set ups *hackcough*melee*hack*.

Not that any encounter is necesarily impossible, but 4 shamans and a tank doesn't cover every possible boxing configuration.

[Hachoo]

Thats not what the discussion is about anyway, its about the fact that all heroics are boxable - whether or not they're boxable with a mixed group is irrelevant. Its not our fault some people are masochists that wanted to be punished by running 5 different classes :D

[Bigfish]

10 classes, thank you.

Anyway, its not exactly helpful when people show up looking for pointers if there is a presupposition that anyone who boxes needs to do so with 4 shamans or you're SOL for getting help. It particularly doesn't help if someone shows up and says 'I can't clear so-and-so' and people start lording that all heroics have been cleared by a boxer.

Don't get me wrong, its great that someone has demonstrated the possibility, but it doesn't mean it can be done by everyone, everywhere, with the same tactics.

[Hachoo]

Thats true, but again thats not the point of this thread. The point is that all heroics are boxable with 5 characters. Nowhere was it said that it was boxable with every combination of classes :)

[Kaynin]

And even then I'd say it's boxable for any 5 man set up that has a set up that can work in heroics as 5 individial chars as well.

It might require a bit more planning, a few more macro's, a more diverse UI, multiple profiles potentially and more time required to put into achieving heroics. But not impossible!

boxing 10 different classes is a whole feat in its own. Respect for giving that a go. I'd love to try it out myself if it wasn't for the fact that I'm a terrible leveler and already lack time as it is to play on my quad-box. Just never think something is impossible to do. Because I don't think that ever really will. Hard and time consuming, I can imagine tho. :P

Either way, 75% of how effective a multiboxer can be, regardless of which classes he boxes, is all about proper setting up and macro's, in my opinion. I think you can agree on that as a 10-boxer. :p

[Bigfish]

And I'm responding to that topic, specifically by pointing out the statement that says "So, if anyone says something isn't boxable - they're wrong." maintains a certain degree of unspoken assumptions which may or may not apply to any given individual.

[Kaynin]

A lazy person, a weak-minded person that gives up after one go, a boxer playing 5 holy priests, or whatever.

Yes, ofcourse not everyone can clear all heroics.

Common sense however tells us it is achievable nonetheless.

[Bigfish]

And even then I'd say it's boxable for any 5 man set up that has a set up that can work in heroics as 5 individial chars as well.

It might require a bit more planning, a few more macro's, a more diverse UI, multiple profiles potentially and more time required to put into achieving heroics. But not impossible!

boxing 10 different classes is a whole feat in its own. Respect for giving that a go. I'd love to try it out myself if it wasn't for the fact that I'm a terrible leveler and already lack time as it is to play on my quad-box. Just never think something is impossible to do. Because I don't think that ever really will. Hard and time consuming, I can imagine tho. :P

Either way, 75% of how effective a multiboxer can be, regardless of which classes he boxes, is all about proper setting up and macro's, in my opinion. I think you can agree on that as a 10-boxer. :p

Oh absolutely. The entirety of a multi-class group is the set up and execution. There are just discrepencies in how it gets done versus a 4 shaman group, namely, the popular strategy of quickly burning down a boss and ignoring certain aspects of the fight will work with some groups, and not with others.

Like I said in the other thread, no one should argue as to whats impossible, becuase it's quite easy to prove them wrong. My corrallary to that is just because its possible for one doesn't make it possible for all.

[Bigfish]

A lazy person, a weak-minded person that gives up after one go, a boxer playing 5 holy priests, or whatever.

Yes, ofcourse not everyone can clear all heroics.

Common sense however tells us it is achievable nonetheless.

Right, there's no helping some situations, but given that the person meets some minimal level, they should be able to accomplish the feat. What I'm focusing on is the potential to clear something with a reasonable group and establish the general area between the omptimized group (tank and 4 shamans) and the minimized group (5 naked holy priests).

Its great Alemi has cleared all heroic dungeons. Props to them, especially if its a community first as Ellay suggested. Now I want to know if we have a melee-boxer who's done it, or a druid boxer, or any of the myriad other combinations we have floating out there.

[Hachoo]

I would assume that the actual point of the thread was to say that boxing all heroics is possible. Nothing more. Nothing more specific than that. This makes sense because there are lots of people that constantly tell me "Oh no one will ever be able to 5 box such and such because its just too hard". Now we can say "Wrong."

[Bigfish]

Oh. Right. Darn my tendency to over-read things and push for deeper meaning.

[Aradar]

Very nice!!!! Wooot :) Possibly a multiboxer first ~!

I haven't touched Oculus at all since like the day after I hit 80, is the mount /follow change something that made this place much more enjoyable?God, yes. It was awful before. Without follow I'd say it be nearly impossible. Now, it's pretty easy. I just took a while cause I was dead set in getting one of the void achievements :)

The other one that was holding me up for a while was Bronzebeard in HoS, but after figuring out how to do it easily it's cake now (first cleared it last week and then cleared it again for the Sjonir achievement, and a 3rd time for the daily).

Mind filling us in on the Bronzebeard Event? For the life of me I cannot get past this event at all.

I'd like to know this myself. I don't really need anything from there, much less Old Kingdom and Oculous so I haven't given them much of a try but if you've got a way to make HoS "cake", I'm all ears. Honestly, I think I could complete HoS and OK with some changes but don't really see the point since I don't need gear from either one. Oculus on the other hand is way above my head especially, again, since I don't need anything from there. :P

Edit: While were at it, any secrets to the Safety Dance? I've had the luxury of taking several of my toons in there and lose the /followers every time. Any suggestions?

Thanks.

[Alemi]

forgive me for being dumb, but i havent been able to get mount following to work, can someone post a walkthru!? =)You can't follow the player when in a vehicle. i.e. /follow Playername

However, /follow party1 works just fine. It's the same thing I use when making a GY run too (since i use a nodead qualifier in my follow macro so if my main dies I can switch to the next in line)

Actually this is wrong, you can do /follow PlayerName. I know this because this is how my guild does Malygos. All you have to do is type it out, and you're set. Now how you'd do the cast rotation for Oculus, well I'm not sure about that one.
Perhaps, I've never tried typing it out. How this differs from the regular /follow PlayerName - makes no sense to me.

Either way, in occulus, a /follow PlayerName macro gives the error message "You cannot follow that unit" - /follow party1 works just fine.

[Alemi]

But not impossible.

Depends. Some encounters *cough* Oculus*cough* really punish some set ups *hackcough*melee*hack*.

Not that any encounter is necesarily impossible, but 4 shamans and a tank doesn't cover every possible boxing configuration.
Number 1 - as was said by other posters, I made no supposition that EVERY combination of classes could box heroics. Never. That's something you inferred. What I said was that they are boxable. I used to run 5 shaman, there's no way I'd have this success with that setup. I thought this would be obvious.

Number 2 - If you're boxing melee that's your own call, but it can be more difficult (on most encounters - before someone takes that out of context) than boxing tank/3 ranged dps/1 healer. However, there are equally as many encounters that are extremely ranged UNfriendly, or more difficult.

[Aradar]

boxing tank/3 ranged dps/1 healer

I checked your toons on armory and saw tank/4 ranged dps. Do you generally run heroics with one as a healer?

[Alemi]

I'd like to know this myself. I don't really need anything from there, much less Old Kingdom and Oculous so I haven't given them much of a try but if you've got a way to make HoS "cake", I'm all ears. Honestly, I think I could complete HoS and OK with some changes but don't really see the point since I don't need gear from either one. Oculus on the other hand is way above my head especially, again, since I don't need anything from there. :P

Edit: While were at it, any secrets to the Safety Dance? I've had the luxury of taking several of my toons in there and lose the /followers every time. Any suggestions?

Thanks.
Ok, first of all - sorry for the triple post. I should have put all my replies in one, but I'm posting from the airport and keep loosing the dang WiFi.

Bronzebeard - I guess I need to say, this only works for heavy AOE multiboxing teams. I tried MULTIPLE strategies, spreading them out on the east and west walls, lining up in the middle so I could move them forward on dark matters/searing gazes. None of this worked for me, it ACTUALLY made it more difficult - for me at least.

What I do now, is at the bottom of the stairs do my normal totem drops (4x Healing Streams instead of my standard 4x Mana Springs, and Fire Resistance Totem for the Searing Gazes), and start the event. During Phase 1 it's just 3 melee dwarves. Make sure your tank is in front and they'll always charge the tank. I keep a Death and Decay down (Concecrate works well, Druid tanks can swipe or mangle or Demo Roar, Warriors can Thunderclap etc.) and just tank them. I stopped using chain lightnings during phase 1 to help with mana and just keep 4x magma totems down and let them slowly but surely eat through each wave, and do the occasional Tstorm. During Phase 2, the stormcallers are your biggest threat, the melee dwarves are just an annoyance. Keep your aoe aggro ability down and make sure you refresh magmas constantly and I keep groundings down to help with the damage. I only use single target damage (LB and LvB) on the stormcallers to maintain mana. Heal when needed obviously.

This part is key - keep an eye on the right head in the room, when you ee the shadow beams come out, move down the stairs towards the middle of the room with everyone on follow. Drag any mobs you have with you. Wait for the Dark Matter ball to spawn and start flying at you and then move back up to the middel of the stairs and continue the aoe/etc. DO NOT LET DARK MATTER HIT YOU DURING PHASE 2. You take 100% damage and the movement debuff is awful. Phase 2 continues, keep killing the casters and let the magmas take care of the melees.

Phase 3 - Is chaos. You have to constantly keep moving. At this point, I don't even worry about killing shit. I drop my Death and Decay, groundings, and magmas. When the waves really start I'll alternate between stoneclaws and earthbinds (stoneclaws are awesome here) - If you have any stun abilities they're very useful for this phase - i.e. Fire Nova Stun, Dragon's Breaths, etc. Golem Custodians have an AOE stun that is particularly bad if a searing gaze (fire lazers) hit. My basic goal is to just survive this phase. I'll bloodlust/em and burn down the first custudian, beyond that it's just a race to stay alive. Keepp moving in a little circle from the stairs to the front of each of the right and left heads just kiting the mobs. It's important not to get too close to Bronzebeard or he'll eat damage from the dark matters/searing gazes and that'll mess up the achievement and likely kill him. If you get caught in a dark matter the damage debuff pretty much makes it so a searing gaze will kill you before you can move. I only heal when a searing gaze is pounding a section of the floor (so I know it won't come down on the shamans while i'm chain healing everyone). As I'm doing my little kite, I try to keep the custodians rooted so they can't stun me.

So basically, I look like an idiot with my head cut off during phase 3. Kill the first custodian and then start running. Stoneclaw/Earthbind/Fire Nova/Magmas is my usually drop while I'm running to keep them running after me. Do this long enough, and the defenses in the room will eventually kill everything for you. If you have them available as well, fire elementals/army of the dead are pretty useful during phase 3 just to distract the mobs and get some aggro on them to keep bronzy alive. I made the mistake of trying to channel my army of the dead at the beginning of phase 3 and immediately have a fire lazer come down on my head. I'd use these right when the "cutscene" starts to get them out of the way and cleanup from phase 2 to make sure phase 3 is empty when you start.

Saftey Dance. This is going to be a little hard to explain. Imagine you're looking at Heigans room from the side of the room of the entrance, to the side of the room with the exit. And you're about to dance. There are 2 EASY markers on the floor to find, once you know them. Most of the cracks run parallel to the ends of the platform, however there is ONE distinct perpendicular crack that makes a T on the floor. The end of the perpendicular crack is the stop point for phase 2. (and your followers will be in a safe zone too if you stop RIGHT there). The stop point for phase 3 is a very distinct crack on the floor that's abnormally long. Stop right before it, and then you're good with the followers. The key is actually in phase 4 and 1.

Because you have people on follow you have to "double back on them" to make the switches seamless. Think of it this way, you cross into phase 4, then the followers cross into phase 4 but are still facing the wall. You have to run back through them to get them to turn and face the way they need to run. This is the easiest way I'd loose someone before I realized how I was screwing up. The followers loose about 1 second turning and then following - by then they're lagging to far behind and generally die in the phase 2 switch becuase of the lag issue.

I probably just made this as confusing as possible. LOL. I'm doing Heigan tonight with my 10 man, I'll try to vid it. The lag from gamecam was causing me to loose my shaman when I ran it with the other boxer but I may have a decent vid of an attempt with him - i.e. my 4 shaman would die, but his 4 shaman would live - the only explaination we came up with was gamecam was lagging my followers since they were all on follow on me. At the minimum I'll get screenshots of the floor where there are good markers after the room is clear. Would that work?

[Alemi]

I checked your toons on armory and saw tank/4 ranged dps. Do you generally run heroics with one as a healer?


It depends. I prefer running dk/3 elemental/1 resto - I respeced my shaman for Naxx this week since we're short on DPS for 25 man, and I'm not going to keep respecing 3 times a week. The cost doesn't bother me, it's having to reset up all my macros and hotbars that drives me EFFING nuts. Having 4 elemental makes the burst seem bigger, but having 1 full time resto means that I can just focus on dpsing without having to really watch my health bar.

Plus Earth Shield + Bone Shield is extremely smexy.

I forgot to say this to any boxer out there, 5 emerald drakes no longer works. Save yourself some time and frustration. Blizzard decided that kiting for 10 minutes effectively was "too easy" and gave all the little whelps a nasty ability - after being up for about 1 minute they gain unlimited range. So they're no longer kitable.

Took me about 2 attempts to realize where these massive amount of arcane bolts were coming from and I see a pack of whelps about 100 yrds from me just all casting at me.

[Bigfish]

Number 1 - as was said by other posters, I made no supposition that EVERY combination of classes could box heroics. Never. That's something you inferred. What I said was that they are boxable. I used to run 5 shaman, there's no way I'd have this success with that setup. I thought this would be obvious.

Number 2 - If you're boxing melee that's your own call, but it can be more difficult (on most encounters - before someone takes that out of context) than boxing tank/3 ranged dps/1 healer. However, there are equally as many encounters that are extremely ranged UNfriendly, or more difficult.

1. Like I said, that wasn't my intent. My inquisitive nature makes me start speculating "If it can be done with a tank and 4 shamans, can it be done with a tank, 3 hunters, and a priest?" and eventually reaching the point of contemplating at what point it does become impossible.

2. I'm aware, very accutely actually, of that fact. It leads me back to my original inquisition as to where the line is where things become ridiculously difficult. Particularly, a lot of encounters can be beaten with a simple dropping of Fire Elementals and Bloodlust to drop crazy DPS and finish a fight before it really begins. I'm sure Death Knights can do the same thing with Army of the Dead. As far as equally goes, I'd argue there are maybe 30% of fights that are easier with Melee than ranged. Ranged classes in particular DPS just as well 1 yard from a boss as 20 yards (hunters excluded).

The fights were Melee win out are pretty cool, mind you, but relatively few and far between.

[Zollist]

Once again, great job man. And your achievement spam was worth a good laugh! ^_^

[Aradar]

I probably just made this as confusing as possible. LOL. I'm doing Heigan tonight with my 10 man, I'll try to vid it. The lag from gamecam was causing me to loose my shaman when I ran it with the other boxer but I may have a decent vid of an attempt with him - i.e. my 4 shaman would die, but his 4 shaman would live - the only explaination we came up with was gamecam was lagging my followers since they were all on follow on me. At the minimum I'll get screenshots of the floor where there are good markers after the room is clear. Would that work?

I actually followed what you were saying perfectly and appreciate the detailed response. I'll have to give HoS another shot if I get bored, as for Heigan, I know exactly where the "T" is but I'll have to look for the other marker. I think my biggest issue is not moving quick enough and not getting my leader to the very end of the safety zone so that the followers are in it on the back end.

I myself run the same setup as you but with a pally tank and am definately looking forward to the dual spec so I can switch my tank and healer out for Naxx runs where we are short people. I've had all 5 in as specced and the healer gets kind of pointless. I've also main tanked with my dps in tow which is kind of a pain. Though I enjoy taking all my toons for the gear opportunity, I don't particulary like raiding multiple roles.

[Andreauk]

Forgive me for sounding silly.. but why are all your chars naked?


All heroics cleared with my dk/4 shamans. :) So, if anyone says something isn't boxable - they're wrong. :) Now to finish off these 11 achievements for Glory of the Hero.

[Kaynin]

Forgive me for sounding silly.. but why are all your chars naked?


All heroics cleared with my dk/4 shamans. :) So, if anyone says something isn't boxable - they're wrong. :) Now to finish off these 11 achievements for Glory of the Hero.

Tryin' to impress you.. us.. people..

[Alemi]

Forgive me for sounding silly.. but why are all your chars naked?



All heroics cleared with my dk/4 shamans. :) So, if anyone says something isn't boxable - they're wrong. :) Now to finish off these 11 achievements for Glory of the Hero.

Tryin' to impress you.. us.. people..That's it.

:) I was playing late last night trying to do the 5 amber drake strategy in Occulus. You get nekkid to avoid the repair costs - I ended up logging after I got ley guardian to 8% and then the next 5 times I couldn't get him past 50%. It was late, I was tired and didn't feel like putting my gear back on.

[Taliesin]

I myself run the same setup as you but with a pally tank and am definately looking forward to the dual spec so I can switch my tank and healer out for Naxx runs where we are short people. I've had all 5 in as specced and the healer gets kind of pointless. I've also main tanked with my dps in tow which is kind of a pain. Though I enjoy taking all my toons for the gear opportunity, I don't particulary like raiding multiple roles.

Aw, don't say that. We're going to have to team up some time to try a 10-man Naxx with just the two of us. That is, when I'm much better geared. :)

[badashh]

Forgive me for sounding silly.. but why are all your chars naked?


All heroics cleared with my dk/4 shamans. :) So, if anyone says something isn't boxable - they're wrong. :) Now to finish off these 11 achievements for Glory of the Hero.

Tryin' to impress you.. us.. people..

They could be naked because he didn't want to take durability damage on the last boss in Oculus. Because gear doesn't matter for that guy anyway. It's a good way to save repair bills.