Mousecloner is very likely against the rules

[Owltoid]

I can't believe what I'm reading on Mousecloners own website. His proof that the program is legit is here:

http://mousecloner.com/blizresponse.php

What he does NOT say is that he is sending clicks to a predetermined position. Somehow he left that very important piece of information out of his request for blue approval. Until that part is included, I would recommend AVOIDING using Mousecloner.

[Bigfish]

In before Evilseed/Mousecloner hops in acting like 2 different users and includes several hyperlink plugs to his own site.

[Tehtsuo]

But it's "built around the spirit of Multiboxing" and "has a great gui."



:thumbdown:

[shaeman]

In before Evilseed/Mousecloner hops in acting like 2 different users and includes several hyperlink plugs to his own site.

I noticed that. Posted response as Evilseed to a thread days old but relevant stating he had tried it and it wasn't good.

Then posted as mousecloner offering his solution.

I will hold off on buying mousecloner - thanks for the warning.

Logically If the program is moving the mouse to a set location I can't see how that wouldn't be deemed as automation.

I had thought blizzard had seen that and approved it.

[knopstr]

Can we please not turn this thread or any other into a hate thread. Be cautious if you wish of his solution, but just drop the negativity.

If you don't want to use it, don't. Let Blizzard decide if it's legal.

If or when it is, it could be a really helpful tool to some of us.

I'm not being paid to help Evilseed lol...just tired of all of the negativity in the world these days.

[Shaitan256]

Can we please not turn this thread or any other into a hate thread. Be cautious if you wish of his solution, but just drop the negativity.

If you don't want to use it, don't. Let Blizzard decide if it's legal.

If or when it is, it could be a really helpful tool to some of us.

I'm not being paid to help Evilseed lol...just tired of all of the negativity in the world these days.

But if this case isn't included in the Overview for Blizzard then it's better not to use it till this is confirmed / edited or wtf else. It's just a warning.
If they get the Accs banned because of this and they don't know that it isn't legit, they won't get their accs back. (theres a sentence in German but can't really translate it but I'll try) "Unknown" doesn't save for Punishment.

Personally I won't use it, not because I have to pay for it, I just don't need it, just for 1 click I don't pay, for myself it isn't worth it, everyone who wants it I'm fine with it, go get it. Maybe I'll get it with later features, keep a look on it for sure.

[Freddie]

Can we please not turn this thread or any other into a hate thread. Be cautious if you wish of his solution, but just drop the negativity.
I agree. Let's stick to the facts. No insults. Nothing personal.

And stick to the important points which, in my opinion, are:

1. This program uses prerecorded X Y coordinates.

2. The publisher claims Blizzard said this is okay.

3. Is this true?

[Bigfish]

Dude wants to sell his program, fine. No issues there outside of potential EULA problems.

Dude wants to hock his wares, generally ignore questions posed, disparage alternatives, and use an alternate forums account to act as the inside man in the crowd, he starts to get annoying and shady.

If Evilseed/Mousecloner wanted to be up front and honest about his program, fine. No one rides Keyclone for providing a program and charging for it when there are free alternatives out there. Then again, Keyclone doesn't hide behind alt accounts or post adverts about how great his product is, and is a generally all around helpful guy.

[Owltoid]

Can we please not turn this thread or any other into a hate thread. Be cautious if you wish of his solution, but just drop the negativity.

If you don't want to use it, don't. Let Blizzard decide if it's legal.

If or when it is, it could be a really helpful tool to some of us.

I'm not being paid to help Evilseed lol...just tired of all of the negativity in the world these days.

I think some of the more seasoned members will tell you that the MB community seems to protect its right to MB and any possibly threat is often attacked.

All Mouseclone needs to do is change from a system where it's a predetermined X,Y and instead broadcast the relative position of the current click to the other WoW windows. I personally wouldn't have any problem with Mouseclone if the modification was made. If people want to pay for Mouseclone so that they have that ability, and ignore the free solutions currently available, then more power to them.

I do have a problem with predetermined X,Y. Since that's all the Mouseclone program does, then I think it's software that reflects poorly on the MB commlunity... hence the "hate."

[Basilikos]

1. This program uses prerecorded X Y coordinates.

2. The publisher claims Blizzard said this is okay.

3. Is this true?

Question: Doesn't HotKeyNet do much of the same thing?

[Tehtsuo]

Keyclone has also disparaged alternatives, for which he's been attacked, and seems to have reevaluated his methods to his benefit. Evilseed will get the same treatment.

[Basilikos]

Alright. I read over Evilseed's query and Blizzard's reply. So far, it seems fine. Let's all just be careful that if we use such a program not to do bad things with it. IMO, this is just another case of the Logitech G15 issue. It can do bad things and we ought not use it for that.

[Kicksome]

Can we please not turn this thread or any other into a hate thread. Be cautious if you wish of his solution, but just drop the negativity.

If you don't want to use it, don't. Let Blizzard decide if it's legal.

If or when it is, it could be a really helpful tool to some of us.

I'm not being paid to help Evilseed lol...just tired of all of the negativity in the world these days.Someone came to this forum HEAVILY promoting their product, and claiming things that were far from fact. What do you expect people to do? And If we had 10 more of these types of products with people who marketed as aggressively on the forums, it would ruin this place.

[Owltoid]

Can we please not turn this thread or any other into a hate thread. Be cautious if you wish of his solution, but just drop the negativity.
I agree. Let's stick to the facts. No insults. Nothing personal.

And stick to the important points which, in my opinion, are:

1. This program uses prerecorded X Y coordinates.

2. The publisher claims Blizzard said this is okay.

3. Is this true?

This ^

I don't like Mouseclone saying Blizzard approved it when the contreversal part was left out of the discussion. Mousecloner/Evilseed, can you please post where you received approval for predetermined X,Y coordinates? I will gladly request deletion of this thread and delete all posts possibly deemed negative towards your software.

[Bigfish]

Keyclone has also disparaged alternatives, for which he's been attacked, and seems to have reevaluated his methods to his benefit. Evilseed will get the same treatment.

Oh. Well, there you go.

[Owltoid]

Alright. I read over Evilseed's query and Blizzard's reply. So far, it seems fine. Let's all just be careful that if we use such a program not to do bad things with it. IMO, this is just another case of the Logitech G15 issue. It can do bad things and we ought not use it for that.

This is just not a good comparison. The G15 has other uses that are not of questionable legitimacy (it's a keyboard for example). The Mouseclone software's only purpose is to broadcast predetermined X,Y coordinates. Hell, if Mouseclone just added one simple addiontal feature that was not questionable then it would be like many other programs out there that have the capability to do things against the rules but the user could only be performing valid acts.

[Tonuss]

How does "predetermined X Y" work? I was under the impression that this functionality was removed, where an addon was using minimap pings to direct mouse input on clients. Cloning mouse input to allow different slave windows to mimick a master window sounds like something that I'd want Blizzard to clarify, which they seemed to do in his screenshots. As long as he's making an effort to get Blizzard's guidance and okay on it, I am okay with that. It's up to each person to check it out and determine if they're comfortable with the information being given.

But as always, my approach is to wait until Blizzard has made it clear enough to satisfy my own doubts.

[Svpernova09]

There is nothing wrong with anyone trying to come up with alternatives to help the community. There is nothing wrong with them trying to make a profit / compensation off their work. The community is trying to protect itself / each other imo. You can see how fast MC threads are getting replies / views as a testament to the overall concern the community has about it. As long as threads don't resort to blatant name calling I don't see a problem with criticism. After all, if you can't take criticism, don't post on the interwebz.


IMO, anyone selling ANYTHING here, should kick back directly via the donate button in the top menu. Not just referrals. You're being allowed to post to a target audience of an extremely niche, targeted user base of potentially over 22,165 unique people, for free. You have $0 advertising budget spent here. To the best of my knowledge, the only for profit Dev who kicks back to the site is Keyclone, and I commend him for it. People say this site is a big advert for keyclone, well, this many people using keyclone and the fanatical support by its author should speak VOLUMES about the kind of program it is.

[zanthor]

I can see two schools of thought here in how they relate to multiboxing and how you would broadcast mice.

The first school:
I press a hotkey and the mouse click replicates to one/some/all clients, where my mouse currently is on the window I am controlling.

Mechanics Involved: To accomplish this with hardware you quickly move a specific mouse to a corner then move it back to where you want to aim. With practice this movement becomes second nature and a click is executed at the same location on all PC's. To accomplish this with software the software moves the mouse on the clones to the current mouse location on the main, and broadcasts the click. The alternative is that the software ALWAYS updates the clients mouse pointer position but only broadcasts clicks on the hotkeys. (If you turn on the virtual mouse cursor in IS you will see this behavior demonstrated.)

My thoughts? Hardware is the purest form of broadcasting mice, it does have limitations as you have to zero the mouse and you (practically speaking) need to have identical resolutions on all machines. Additionally you have a chance of it coming unsynced. Software this is as close to hardware as you can get and avoids anything that may be seen as a form of automation.

The second school:
I press a hotkey and the mouse click sends to some/one/all clients at a pre-determined position which I cannot easily change on the fly.

Mechanics Involved: This is the equivilant of having individual mice setup across machines and having them pre-positioned. You press a hotkey to broadcast left click (this is able to be done in game with the default UI) and a click broadcasts. To accomplish this with pure software you will find that you need to position the cursor on each window before attempting this due to moving the mouse out of teh windows bounds you will have a mouse on the outside edge of the window.

My thoughts? The movement to a predetermined position is very similar in my mind to KeyClones hotstrings. You press a button and the software translates it before it reaches the other machines. I can see how this would fall into the area some purists would prefer to stay away from, but I think it still falls well within the spirit of 1 physical action = 1 action per client... unfortunately my opinion doesn't weigh heavily when Blizzards the ones making the call, so I've avoided this sort of thing in my IS setup.

[Owltoid]

How does "predetermined X Y" work? I was under the impression that this functionality was removed, where an addon was using minimap pings to direct mouse input on clients. Cloning mouse input to allow different slave windows to mimick a master window sounds like something that I'd want Blizzard to clarify, which they seemed to do in his screenshots. As long as he's making an effort to get Blizzard's guidance and okay on it, I am okay with that. It's up to each person to check it out and determine if they're comfortable with the information being given.

But as always, my approach is to wait until Blizzard has made it clear enough to satisfy my own doubts.

Inside the program you enter an X,Y coordinate (such as 14,27) and set a key binding to it (like Ctrl-C). Now every time Ctrl-C is clicked the mouse clicks at exactly 14,27.

IMO that is bordering on automation. If Blizzard gives the ok on the functionality, then more power to Mouseclone and I will also likely enable the feature in other programs I use. However, the real problem is that many think it's not ok by Blizzard, and Mouseclone has his website saying that his tool is totally accepted by Blizzard. The problem is Mouseclone never mentioned anything about predetermined X,Y coordinates.

[Tonuss]

Inside the program you enter an X,Y coordinate (such as 14,27) and set a key binding to it (like Ctrl-C). Now every time Ctrl-C is clicked the mouse clicks at exactly 14,27.Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying!

[shaeman]

Can we please not turn this thread or any other into a hate thread. Be cautious if you wish of his solution, but just drop the negativity.

If you don't want to use it, don't. Let Blizzard decide if it's legal.

If or when it is, it could be a really helpful tool to some of us.

I'm not being paid to help Evilseed lol...just tired of all of the negativity in the world these days.
I saw very little hate in the thread. I saw someone post about their concerns about the software. I saw someone mention about Evilseeds/Mousecloners recent marketing technique (and I passed comment on both).

I think it would be remiss of this community not to warn others of a possible issue. It's been done before and hopefully will continue to work that way. Let's face it the community would face the fallout of any Blizzard bannings should the Autopositioning of the mouse be deemed to be against the TOS.

[Freddie]

1. This program uses prerecorded X Y coordinates.

2. The publisher claims Blizzard said this is okay.

3. Is this true?

Question: Doesn't HotKeyNet do much of the same thing?
1. HotkeyNet can click prerecorded X Y coordinates. (It can also broadcast to windows based on the mouse's actual position.)

2. Unlike Mousecloner, I don't tell people this is okay in WoW. On the contrary, I tell people not to use this in WoW because I think it's illegal there and could get your account banned.

3. Unlike Mousecloner, I don't tell people that Blizzard has approved this. I don't think it's true that Blizzard has approved this.

[Owltoid]

.......
The second school:
I press a hotkey and the mouse click sends to some/one/all clients at a pre-determined position which I cannot easily change on the fly.

Mechanics Involved: This is the equivilant of having individual mice setup across machines and having them pre-positioned. You press a hotkey to broadcast left click (this is able to be done in game with the default UI) and a click broadcasts. To accomplish this with pure software you will find that you need to position the cursor on each window before attempting this due to moving the mouse out of teh windows bounds you will have a mouse on the outside edge of the window.

My thoughts? The movement to a predetermined position is very similar in my mind to KeyClones hotstrings. You press a button and the software translates it before it reaches the other machines. I can see how this would fall into the area some purists would prefer to stay away from, but I think it still falls well within the spirit of 1 physical action = 1 action per client... unfortunately my opinion doesn't weigh heavily when Blizzards the ones making the call, so I've avoided this sort of thing in my IS setup.

I can see your point of view and I agree, a little bit. However, what if you have two predetermined positions?

Ctrl-C goes to (30,40)
Shift-L goes to (5,70)

It's very hard to replicate that with any sort of hardware solution.

Like KeyClone, HKN also has the ability to use predetermined X,Y coordinates. If users decide to take advantage of that option, then IMO they are against Blizzard policy. However, do I think Blizzard should ban HKN or Keyclone for that? I sure hope not since they have many other uses. Mouseclone has one use and claims that Blizzard is ok with that... there's where the problem is.

[Svpernova09]

Like KeyClone, HKN also has the ability to use predetermined X,Y coordinates. If users decide to take advantage of that option, then IMO they are against Blizzard policy. However, do I think Blizzard should ban HKN or Keyclone for that? I sure hope not since they have many other uses. Mouseclone has one use and claims that Blizzard is ok with that... there's where the problem is.Keyclone cannot currently use pre-determined x,y coordinates for mouse, You can map a mouse action to a key via mouse-map, or you can enable mouse passing, where you define a toggle for mouse click passing, hit the toggle, click and the click happens on the local window, then gets sent to the next instance, down the line, then you need to toggle it off. There is no way to set pre-defined X,Y locations to click.

[keyclone]

There is no way to set pre-defined X,Y locations to click. correct. i, like freddie, saw this as most likely against Blizzard's TOS/EULA, so i have deliberately avoided that functionality.

rest assured, if this functionality is ok with Blizzard, a simpler UI will be available within keyclone.

[Svpernova09]

correct. i, like freddie, saw this as most likely against Blizzard's TOS/EULA, so i have deliberately avoided that functionality.

rest assured, if this functionality is ok with Blizzard, a simpler UI will be available within keyclone.If blizzard ok's this, its going to be a field day of awesomesauce with what we can do with it.

[Kicksome]

I used the predetermined x,y cordinates mouseclicks in hotkeynet for a while (against the author's advice), it worked great. But I felt it looked REALLY suspicious so I stopped using it, and switched to the normal keybinding mouse clicks. Using the predetermined X,Y system, It puts down the AOE in the EXACT same pattern every time, and I was worried that it be a red flag to see every AOE I casted was clicked in exactly screen position 600x600. I honestly don't know if this is a big enough deal to warrant any blizzard attention though. I think it'll come down to a very specific blue post, or someone getting banned before we know if it's acceptable.

[JasonB87]

first off these are my opinions and i have nothing against evilseed.

imo from looking at the screenshots and reading what this product does it sounds like you setup some predetermined coordinates, define a mouse click that is pressed and assign a hotkey to it. I have not tested this myself but it sounds like what happens is you hit this hotkey and mousecloner moves to said x,y coordinates and clicks the button. The fact that it might be using predetermined coordinates steers me away from it.

if you direct yourself over to the upcoming features one the mousecloner website you will notice the top two features. An easier way to find x,y coordinates and a way to enable clicking without moving the mouse these both backup something that sounds like it would be against the eula and very close to automation.

once again i have not actually used the product this is all that i've gathered from reading and looking so it is strictly opinion based.

[Vyndree]

correct. i, like freddie, saw this as most likely against Blizzard's TOS/EULA, so i have deliberately avoided that functionality.

rest assured, if this functionality is ok with Blizzard, a simpler UI will be available within keyclone.If blizzard ok's this, its going to be a field day of awesomesauce with what we can do with it.

Predetermined x,y coordinate clicking makes hardware 'boxers cry.

The context of the blue post, while slightly ambiguous, does imply that "keyboard action" = "mouse movement" was OK. Granted, it's not a solid, unambiguous answer but since you're not exactly typing out a coordinate with the keyboard, I'd think the GM knew that "keypress"-->"mouse movement" means the keypress can initiate a mouse movement to a predetermined location, since keypresses cannot act on multiple axis like a mouse can.


If anyone wanted the direct link: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=14697620418&postId=146960380319&sid=1#15

[Sam DeathWalker]

The issue is not clear one way or the other, the way he asked the question could be interpreted to include that he did say mouse move/click. It also could be intrepreted just as validly that the blue response did not understand that the mouse was moved to predetermined coodinates and then clicked.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=14697620418&sid=1&pageNo=1

Some wow forumers feel it is legal, some feel it is not.

I think all these arguments in this thread are better made over there where blues might see them.

Evilseed is the prior owner of WOWHEAD and I use WOWHEAD every day (well like 5 times a day).

I didnt see Vyndree post before posting this.


Predetermined x,y coordinate clicking makes hardware 'boxers cry.

cept me. Because my resolutions are the same on my 5 computers and because I set the views the same, and because all the mouse speeds are exactly the same I can move my one mouse and the pointer will go to about the same coodenates on all 5 computers....... Thats why I do some quests now cause I can click on the guy 5 at a time.

[Sam DeathWalker]

Well casue it tends to indicate he's not fly by night nor will you get a viruse from his download.

Ya well ambiguilty is getting to be a Blizzard trademark ...

[Freddie]

This is the blue post everyone is going ape shit? That is not a confirmation nor denial of this programs "legality". Thats a "use at your own risk" statement.
Yep, that's what it is. The reason this matters is because the first thing Mousecloner says on his website is this:

Yes we are legal to use! Blizzard has given the green light on the features that drives Mousecloner. Read all about it here.

So he's misrepresenting the blue post. But it's even worse than that. He also misrepresented the "features that drives Mousecloner" when he asked for that blue post. If he had described his program honestly when he asked Blizzard for a blue post, I think they might have told him, "No way, bud, your program violates our rules."

[Bigfish]

Predetermined x,y coordinate clicking makes hardware 'boxers cry.

Doesn't bother me any, because that's more or less what I do for AOE, except I manually move my mice in to position and leave them there, and if I move them I have to reset that mouse, but ground targeted AOE comes up so little it doesn't bother me at all.

[Vyndree]

I didnt see Vyndree post before posting this.


Predetermined x,y coordinate clicking makes hardware 'boxers cry.

cept me. Because my resolutions are the same on my 5 computers and because I set the views the same, and because all the mouse speeds are exactly the same I can move my one mouse and the pointer will go to about the same coodenates on all 5 computers....... Thats why I do some quests now cause I can click on the guy 5 at a time.

So can I.

What I can't do is instantly move my mouse from one location to x,y location. Mice still have latency -- that is, your hand has to push the little mouse where you want it to go.

What others here described -- "I can do that! I just leave my mouse in the position I want it and click the mouse when I want to cast!" -- well, then... you're NOT moving the mouse at all, are you? I'd be fine with a hardware solution that sent an "I click the mouse!" signal when a key is pressed -- the mouse is not moving on any axis. But that's not what happens -- the mouse moves from point A to point B instantly with toggle from the user -- I can't do that with hardware. I can't yell at my mouse "Go to position 42, 85!" and watch the cursor blink to that position. I have to take my hand and moosh the little cursor over to the place I want it to be -- constant, continuous instruction -- not a toggle.

Also, mice de-sync. Regardless of the fact that I'm using the same mouse to move the same distance on 5 same-resolution screens, after some movement I find that the mouse will gradually "drift" on one or more of my monitors. When this happens, I have to move my mouse to a corner of my screen (wasting more time) to reorient them all the same location again. This is "fine", but I'm just emphasizing it's not as instant as a keypress that can guarantee a click in an x,y location.

I'm not saying it's against the rules, I'm just saying... there is no way to emulate certain aspects of software in hardware -- which seems backwards, since most of the software is all just trying to emulate hardware. PiP swapping, seamless and reliable mouse movement... not gonna happen in a pure hardware version.

[Stormweasel]

Edit - ignore me, someone already has done it!

[Bigfish]

Ya well ambiguilty is getting to be a Blizzard trademark ...

Well, its not like there is a department of acceptable 3rd party programs at blizz you can submit something to and get a seal of approval or a ban hammer warning about.

Really, the only way this is going to get any definitive "signal of Ok" is to use the thing on a wide scale and see whether the ban hammer lands or not, and honestly, its bad mojo to tout the product as Blizzard Approved before it has become a certainty.

[Rin]

Just my 2 copper here...

For what it's worth, both Hotkeynet and Keyclone have public registrations available for people to look at. The contact information for each of the authors is readily available. Having worked with Keyclone, I have personally talked to the software author on the phone, several times. Many users have had the same experiences when dealing with Rob at Keyclone, and many users have also had positive interactions with Freddie at HotKeyNet.

MouseCloner/EvilSeed has presented his product poorly. First by assuming a new name and advertising his products, then next by not explicitly stating what his product does - and then claiming to have Blizzard approval. While the software may or may not be OK with Blizzard, I would strongly advise you to use caution when dealing with MouseCloner.

Sam, in an earlier post, you stated that Evilseed is not a fly by night type of person; yet I find it funny that I was unable to find anything about this guy. All you really know about Evilseed is that he has a support email at mousecloner.com. That's it. His company and registration information have been deliberately hidden from the public (and I seriously doubt you're going to have any luck subpoena'ing him in the event that you lose your account). Having dealt with plenty of online ventures, one of the first things that comes to mind when you're going to market a product is having a lucid and easy contact method. Also, don't use anonymous registrations for your said company; while there are legitimate uses for this, the vast majority of proxied registrations are for products that may or may not be advisable. I would go as far as to call it a bad practice to register a company/product under an anonymous name, but I'm sure some of you would give me flack for that ;) .

Maybe Evilseed will chime in and explain to us why he presented his product without explicitly talking about the x,y coordinate functionality. Personally, after seeing Evilseed/Mousecloner's behavior and responses on this board, I wouldn't buy a damn thing from this guy.. But that's just me. Some of you will, and I hope that it works out for you. The whole product, presentation, and site just has too many red flags for me.

[Kicksome]

You know, Athene, the guy who was the first to level to 79 (he would have been first to 80), but then got banned, asked a GM if it was ok to power level out of group. The GM said, sure. But if Athene had told him the whole store of:
Yes, I'm leveling out of group
But it's in an instance
and I'm dropping group, tagging all the stuff, then having the group kill stuff, so I get full exp
then I'm getting invited back within 60 seconds
so that I get full instance exp.

The GM could have most certainly set him straight.

But he just said 'Is it okay to power level out of group', which was true, but not the whole truth. And it cost him and a bunch of his friends, their accounts.

[Freddie]

there is no way to emulate certain aspects of software in hardware -- which seems backwards, since most of the software is all just trying to emulate hardware. PiP swapping, seamless and reliable mouse movement... not gonna happen in a pure hardware version.
I've never shared your view that multiboxing software is essentially an emulation of hardware. This has always seemed peculiar to me.

My basic idea for HotkeyNet was, "I'll write a hotkey program like AutoHotKey except it will work on an entire network of computers instead of a single PC, and every PC will be able to control all of the others, and there will be an interpreted script language." What does this have to do with emulating hardware? So far as I can see, nothing.

I don't think the relationship between multiboxing hardware and software is emulation. I think the relationship is like the one between phones and email, or between rifles and shotguns, or between cars and motorcycles. The relationship is a Venn diagram with two circles that partially overlap. The overlap indicates a bunch of tasks that both can accomplish; but each one can do certain things that the other can't. And for the common tasks, the ones in the overlapping area, each one has advantages and disadvantages relative to the other.

[Malekyth]

I don't really care how MouseCloner has represented his product. He's made some claims about the program's legality that aren't quite confirmed, and that doesn't bother me, because I have thirty-four years of experience being lied to and half-lied to by well-meaning marketers and have learned to think for myself. It should make you suspicious, but frankly you should be suspicious about anything you buy. The fact that they're trying to take some money off you should get your mind working. It's not a very relevant issue to me.

For what it's worth, I sprung for MouseCloner last night and gave it a whirl on my druid team. It is indeed fun to play with, and feels about as automated to me as Keyclone does, i.e. kinda, but not really. I will say that it's not fully functional yet, sort of at the 'advanced end users' stage, and I'd recommend potential buyers to wait for a little while until the author at least gets his coordinate setup GUI up and running. There'll be plenty of time to debate the issue and wait for a Blizzard multiboxer to try the actual software and confirm its legality, before taking the plunge yourself.

[Talamarr]

Here are some FACTS to digest while you consider using this "product"

The author has misrepresented himself to the community, creating a new forum name to hide his true identity. No other author of software here has done this. (especially considering the fact that he's asking for your money)

The author has also misrepresented the "legality" of his product with the Blue "confirmation" post. The Blizzard employee basically said "use at your own risk", then the mousecloner author stated on his website "blizzard confirms its legal"! (where the author also misrepresented the true functionality of the product to a blizzard employee).

So you've got not one, but two VERY shady things this guy has done in recent times. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me!

I cannot stop anyone from buying and using this software, but if I were you, I'd stay the hell away from it.

I'm posting this as I'm here to protect the community. Sure, I'm an asshole sometimes, but I do actually care. :D

I think it's important though to distinguish the two points here: 1) The alleged shadiness of Evilseed/MouseCloner and his methods and 2) the legality of the functionality he provides. Whether he's a saint or a crook doesn't change if this type of feature is legal and ok with Blizzard.

I just don't want to mix the two points here and I'm afraid that's what is happening. I.E. Because Evilseed doesn't seem like he can be trusted, sending mouse clicks this way is probably illegal.

Anyway...carry on.

[Freddie]

He misrepresented his product TO Blizzard in an attempt to get a "sign off". Then after receiving a general "use at your own risk" answer back, he turned around and misrepresented the answer to his potential customers!

There is another word for this kind of behavior. Fraud.

Blizzard's answer was based on misleading details about the operation of the program.
Good summary. That's the whole thing in a nutshell.

[Bigfish]

There is another word for this kind of behavior. Fraud.

Blizzard's answer was based on misleading details about the operation of the program.

The truly beautiful part is that he doesn't quote the blue post when espousing how Blizz Okayed it. He quotes something from his initial question as to whether it was against the TOS or not, and takes the lack of a specific answer as agreement.

[Malekyth]

He misrepresented his product TO Blizzard in an attempt to get a "sign off". Then after receiving a general "use at your own risk" answer back, he turned around and misrepresented the answer to his potential customers!

There is another word for this kind of behavior. Fraud.You're drawing a conclusion based on your gut feeling about MouseCloner, not on actual facts. He did not necessarily deliberately misrepresent anything to Blizzard -- all we can really say with lots of caps and underlined words is that the confirmation from Blizzard was not based on a sufficient examination of the software. That's significant, but it's hardly a justification for using "fact" and "fraud" in the same breath.

[Starbuck_Jones]

I think the whole thing is silly personally. Why?

Account Suspension/Deletion.
BLIZZARD MAY SUSPEND, TERMINATE, MODIFY, OR DELETE ACCOUNTS AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON OR FOR NO REASON, WITH OR WITHOUT NOTICE TO YOU.

[Owltoid]

He misrepresented his product TO Blizzard in an attempt to get a "sign off". Then after receiving a general "use at your own risk" answer back, he turned around and misrepresented the answer to his potential customers!

There is another word for this kind of behavior. Fraud.You're drawing a conclusion based on your gut feeling about MouseCloner, not on actual facts. He did not necessarily deliberately misrepresent anything to Blizzard -- all we can really say with lots of caps and underlined words is that the confirmation from Blizzard was not based on a sufficient examination of the software. That's significant, but it's hardly a justification for using "fact" and "fraud" in the same breath.

I don't know your definition, but I believe if you leave out the questionable part of the story then I'd say it's misrepresentation.

[Owltoid]

I think the whole thing is silly personally. Why?

Account Suspension/Deletion.
BLIZZARD MAY SUSPEND, TERMINATE, MODIFY, OR DELETE ACCOUNTS AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON OR FOR NO REASON, WITH OR WITHOUT NOTICE TO YOU.

How does this have anything to do with the argument? Because Blizzard has the right to delete our accounts at any moment means we should engage in activity that makes it more likely?

[Tehtsuo]

He misrepresented his product TO Blizzard in an attempt to get a "sign off". Then after receiving a general "use at your own risk" answer back, he turned around and misrepresented the answer to his potential customers!

There is another word for this kind of behavior. Fraud.You're drawing a conclusion based on your gut feeling about MouseCloner, not on actual facts. He did not necessarily deliberately misrepresent anything to Blizzard -- all we can really say with lots of caps and underlined words is that the confirmation from Blizzard was not based on a sufficient examination of the software. That's significant, but it's hardly a justification for using "fact" and "fraud" in the same breath.Blizzards policies on third-party addons makes your gut feeling the single most important source of a judgment call.

In addition, the very reason Blizzard will not conclusively say "This application is guaranteed to be ok" is because they know people might try to misrepresent their products when seeking Blizzard's endorsement just like Evilseed has done. Hence their reticence when asked to give a definite yes or no answer, which unfortunately puts US in the position of deciding whether said application is worth the risk.

[Malekyth]

You're drawing a conclusion based on your gut feeling about MouseCloner, not on actual facts. He did not necessarily deliberately misrepresent anything to Blizzard -- all we can really say with lots of caps and underlined words is that the confirmation from Blizzard was not based on a sufficient examination of the software. That's significant, but it's hardly a justification for using "fact" and "fraud" in the same breath.I don't know your definition, but I believe if you leave out the questionable part of the story then I'd say it's misrepresentation."Deliberately misrepresent" are the critical two words there. I'm not saying he didn't, but the point is, we don't know, and Fur's coming off like he's been found guilty without a shadow of a doubt (ironically, in the context of how misrepresentation is eeevil). The worst we can say is that his nod from Blizzard is based on incomplete data and should be taken with a shaker of salt.

Incidentally, what would be MouseCloner's motivation to release software that he himself knows will be eventually squashed by Blizzard? He spends a lot of time coding and setting up his PayPal merchant, a lot of time pimping the software in forums ... only to get four or five payments of twelve bucks before it all explodes and associates him forevermore with shady activity? The cost-benefit ratio is not in line with deliberate fraud. It's reasonable to assume that he believes his software to be on the level and didn't leave anything out of that post to Blizzard on purpose. So I'm inclined to believe that the character assassination is going too far at this point.

[Tehtsuo]

History has comprehensively proven that the fact that something is illegal, and even the fact that it's illegal and not likely to be profitable, is not 100% effective at keeping human beings from ever doing something illegal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

[Malekyth]

Yeah, cheap software marketed to a very, VERY niche market. Plus, this guy is a known person, former CEO of a site we all use and all, also involved with some other websites. He's not some dude who's likely to endure destruction of his online persona for the sake of a very small amount of money. We're not talking $30,000 money-printing machine scams, we're talking $12 multiboxing accessories.

[zanthor]

And it cost him and a bunch of his friends, their accounts.

For 3 days.

[asonimie]

Dude wants to hock his wares, generally ignore questions posed, disparage alternatives, and use an alternate forums account to act as the inside man in the crowd, he starts to get annoying and shady.

Blagojevich? Show yourself dam you!

[Starbuck_Jones]

To Owltold

I think its very relevant to the current topic at hand. Its the best example of the ambiguity that is the relationship between Blizzard and its Customers. That is why I think this is silly. Your not going to get anyone that represents Blizzard in a binding comment that application x y or z is supported for use with the game (I relay hate when people use illegal and legal when it comes to a video game). Half of what Blizzard classifies as automation used to be a built in function of the UI. Thus simply put, Blizzard changes its mind and does so often and that means what one blue post says today is completely invalid the next.

Next, its arguably safe to say that broadcasting a keystroke to multiple clients on single or multiple machines either via hardware or software or mechanical solutions is deemed ok. Why should mouse movement, clicking, or any other human user interface device be different? Where does it even say that I HAVE to use a mouse on my computer? Most operating systems have built into them the functionality to emulate one device with another. Some seem to be hanging on a pre-programed mouse positions. How is this technicaly different than binding a key to a pre-programed camera angle? I dont think anyone here would argue much about the usefulness of a keystroke bound to move a mouse to the location of where all the dialog boxes appear in game. Combining mouse position and a click in one button, to me is just the same. How would that be any differnt than the ingame macros that target, focus, trinket, buff, cast that we use today?

I guess my point is this, play how you want, use what tools you want that allows you to do what you want to accomplish. Look at the success and failures of others and play according to how much risk your willing to expose yourself too, but remember, in the end Blizzard can ban you because of your hair color if they feel like it.

[Kicksome]

BLIZZARD RESPONDED!!!

Why are you looking past it - that is a point that is integral to any discussion of automation.

Currently, using pre-recorded x,y coordinates (a function not supported by the default UI at all), to target or cast a spell is functionality outside of our Terms of Use.

I would strongly advise shying away from this program, if it is causing mouse moves (even simulated mouse moves) to occur in response to user inputs.

Mouse moves are the purview of the user, not a program.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=14697502146&sid=1&pageNo=7

http://www.godsoftime.com/kicksome/tos.jpg

[algol]

I agree. Let's stick to the facts. No insults. Nothing personal.

And stick to the important points which, in my opinion, are:

1. This program uses prerecorded X Y coordinates.

2. The publisher claims Blizzard said this is okay.

3. Is this true?
No, it's not true. The post he's holding up as proof looks to boil down to "Hey, Blizzard - If I make a thing that follows your announced policy, is it okay to use?" with a response of "Well if it doesn't break any rules like you claim, then yes - IF."

And like Kicksome shows - someone more honest took up the obvious issue, and was answered.

[elsegundo]

that post has told me all i needed to know.

thanks guys for debating back and forth for the purpose of protecting the community as a whole.

[-silencer-]

Anyone else find it amusing that he's trying to capitalize on Rob's popularity with the name "KeyClone" by naming his own product "MouseCloner," as if it's the partner-product in multiboxing? He's trying to make money off Rob's product name, and if Rob cared, he could force Evilseed to rename his own product, similar to how Apple is doing with other brands using i-whatever.

[elsegundo]

Anyone else find it amusing that he's trying to capitalize on Rob's popularity with the name "KeyClone" by naming his own product "MouseCloner," as if it's the partner-product in multiboxing? He's trying to make money off Rob's product name, and if Rob cared, he could force Evilseed to rename his own product, similar to how Apple is doing with other brands using i-whatever.what else would you call it? its a catchy name.
edit: i'd call it MultiMouseMan

ps. and why the insult?

[Freddie]

BLIZZARD RESPONDED!!!

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=14697502146&sid=1&pageNo=7

http://www.godsoftime.com/kicksome/tos.jpg
Excellent! /salute Aelli who started the WoW forum thread.

This is really cool. We got something done here today (Aelli did anyway) instead of just arguing. :)

Edit: I just realized Aelli is Ellay, right? Silly me. :)

[Svpernova09]

Excellent! /salute Aelli who started the WoW forum thread.

This is really cool. We got something done here today (Aelli did anyway) instead of just arguing. :)I agree, it took 7 pages but I'm glad they responded.

[Kicksome]

Yeah, it's too bad we're not allowed to do it, but at least we know for sure.

[Malekyth]

BLIZZARD RESPONDED!!!

...

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=14697502146&sid=1&pageNo=7And that's that. Back to determining whether shamans are awesome again, the lot of ya!

Fur: This detail probably isn't too important now ... but you're right, there is some potential in selling stuff to us, and in order to have any hope of getting his mitts on a significant portion of that, MouseCloner would have to believe himself to be selling legal software. If he deliberately released something against the TOS, he could expect a tiny fraction of that potential before Blizzard dropped the hatchet, plus the possibility of never being able to do business online again. His career thus far, what little I know of is, has been largely online. Who'd knowingly hamstring himself for a tiny fraction of a large potential? Personally, my rent alone is $1600; the few $12 licenses I'd be able to sell in the short time before being banned would not entice me to deliberately jeopardize my future credibility and ability to earn a living. I maintain that it's not likely that he'd deliberately engage in fraud in this situation, and very premature to start howling "fact".

But anyway, there's the official word from Bliz, and all that's left is the update to Warden.

[Sajuuk]

Currently, using pre-recorded x,y coordinates (a function not supported by the default UI at all), to target or cast a spell is functionality outside of our Terms of Use.

I would strongly advise shying away from this program, if it is causing mouse moves (even simulated mouse moves) to occur in response to user inputs.

Mouse moves are the purview of the user, not a program Here are a few things I think we can take from this post (feel free to correct me/put in your input), because more is at stake here than mousecloners current method of operation. This post has set a precedent referring to mouse movement. My ''points'' are highly generalized.

Keypresses turned into mouse movements are NOT okay. Mouse movements being broadcast are okay (One action=one action, one mouse movement = one mouse movement)

[Tehtsuo]

Now it just remains to be seen if he will offer those who've already purchased said software their money back. :rolleyes:

[Kicksome]

And that's that. Back to determining whether shamans are awesome again, the lot of ya!

I think Shamans stock has gone up a lot after the patch, and now this news.

[Svpernova09]

For people that DID purchase Mousecloner, my advice to you is to immediately stop using it, uninstall it, reboot your computer so no trace of it is left in memory. Your next steps should be to contact the vendor for a refund (if I were you) and then if that doesn't work out, look at the option of filing a paypal dispute. (Consult paypal's Terms and Conditions and any Terms from Mousecloner you agreed to upon purchase / use for specifics)



Closed thread is Closed
Answered Questions are Answered

[Vyndree]

Closed thread is Closed

*winces*

Teeny tiny little addition...

Nobody here is "in trouble" -- we don't expect you to be psychic and know what Blizz is thinking before they post. So we're not yelling at anyone for breaking the rules. We're just following them.

kk, that is all.

[keyclone]

i'm trying to restrain myself, under guidance from people much nicer then me.

as such...

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[ something was here ]

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http://solidice.com/images/Ninjafade.gif ninja edit myself