When to stop gathering haste?

[Hachoo]

Well, I'm not purposefully gathering haste on my shamans, but last night after having 4 deathchill cloaks crafted I looked at a shaman and realized I had something like 450 haste rating which comes out to ~13.7% haste. So the question is, when does haste rating stop being worth it? I checked out spell haste rating on wowwiki and it doesn't really clarify where theoretical diminishing returns kick in... would it be at ~33.33% where the global cooldown no longer gets reduced?

Just want to know when I should start avoiding haste rating for other stats.

[blbjtb]

Granted I did this test with my mage friend when Haste first came out so MAYBE things are a little different...But I doubt it

My friend Got every piece of haste gear he could find (If you remember when it first came out You could basically get a whole set of haste crap with badges)

It made his Ice bolt shoot .3 faster...

To both me and him it didnt really seem like it was a great increase but thats us so who knows.

Personally Im all about Crit (Although you wouldnt know that by looking @ my guys lol)

[Hachoo]

Actually its changed a lot since it first came out - apparently some major changes in 2.2 and 2.4 i think. I kind of get the impression the cap now is 33% which would be like 1000 haste rating lol but that doesn't seem right.

I don't stack crit at all (though I still have a ~19% crit) because of auto lava burst crits and elemental mastery, it just seems like Sp is the best stat and haste I just keep hearing is great too (plus almost all elemental mail has haste on it so its hard to avoid).

[Kaynin]

haste rating doesn't do much for mages (as opposed to crit for example which rocks for mages)

for shamans haste or crit, it doesn't matter, both add roughly the same dps. The difference is, with haste you'll end up getting diminishing results, whereas with crit you do not. (Don't think it's possible to hit the crit cap with gear. :P )

I'm unaware of when haste gets diminished, but i reckon I sit fine at 250ish on my chars.

[Hachoo]

haste rating doesn't do much for mages (as opposed to crit for example which rocks for mages)

for shamans haste or crit, it doesn't matter, both add roughly the same dps. The difference is, with haste you'll end up getting diminishing results, whereas with crit you do not. (Don't think it's possible to hit the crit cap with gear. :P )

I'm unaware of when haste gets diminished, but i reckon I sit fine at 250ish on my chars.Thats true...sort of. Depends on how you look at it. Technically going from 20% crit to 40% crit does absolutely nothing for Lava Burst, so I would consider that quite a large diminishing return, but its all in how you look at it :) Still, I definitely want to know where it stops becoming effective to stack haste so I can avoid it at that point.

[Kaynin]

haste rating doesn't do much for mages (as opposed to crit for example which rocks for mages)

for shamans haste or crit, it doesn't matter, both add roughly the same dps. The difference is, with haste you'll end up getting diminishing results, whereas with crit you do not. (Don't think it's possible to hit the crit cap with gear. :P )

I'm unaware of when haste gets diminished, but i reckon I sit fine at 250ish on my chars.Thats true...sort of. Depends on how you look at it. Technically going from 20% crit to 40% crit does absolutely nothing for Lava Burst, so I would consider that quite a large diminishing return, but its all in how you look at it :) Still, I definitely want to know where it stops becoming effective to stack haste so I can avoid it at that point.

But with lava burst taken into account, crit and haste do about the same.

If you would be spamming lb only, you would benefit more from crit then haste. :p

These figures were all calculated somewhere. I'd need to look them up. *goes to try and look them up*

[Bigfish]

I'm not entirely sure if haste has increasing, decreasing, or constant returns to scale. Thinking about it, I guess it would probably be decresing after a while, but anywho, as far as I can tell haste functions as a trade off between mana efficiency and DPS. I suppose when you start going OOM is the point you want to stop grabbing Haste.

That said, I have no clue where the optimized point for haste is, since there are 3-4 DPS-increasing factors that are codependant on each other. (Hit, crit, spell power, and haste) Hit obviously caps, but the other two are less certain.

[blbjtb]

The way I understood it was that Haste would take a % off of the cast time? Right

Most of our cast times are what 2 Seconds? while I large spells (LVB and Chain are both 1.5) gonna what shave off .3 sec..Although I suppose every bit helps...

HOWEVER I think it would be HUGE benefit to our healing spells

BTW last night I noticed this sorry to get off topic but it just poped in my head

Sunday I was running heroics Never wiped hardly died @ all
Yesterday I was dying all over the place and actually wipped like twice on mobs ive never wipped on before thing is my boys got that nice Emblem Shield sunday night which was a HUGE upgrade... So why the harshness?

Although I think most I can chalk up to RNG was screwing me in the pooper cause like King Dread who I never had a problem with before double hit me for 10K and I just Could not recover...

Sorry lol back on topic

Thats about the most benefit I can see to Haste..But like I said I wrote off haste a long time ago Id like to see some tests to see what happens perhaps look @ Dr dmg or something IDK

[blast3r]

If haste and crit have the same returns as far as dps goes wouldn't haste make you eat more mana to deliver the same dps?

[Niley]

read here on haste vs crit, haste still offers more benefit then crit, with spell damage being no 1 stat
linky ('http://elitistjerks.com/f79/t39094-elemental_upcoming_changes/')

[Kaynin]

Have to take into account that crit also gives oath, at some point enough crit will get you oathed up 100% though. But 19% crit seems way low to me.

I'm at 45ish% at the moment. (Do you take into account the 5% crit from talent on lightning spells as well as Oath/ToW? :P I hope not, cuz your base crit would be 5% then. XD Sounds to me you're on 33%ish crit.

[blbjtb]

With 4 shamans Shooting all the time Oath isnt a problem I mean it seriously is almost NEVER off

[Kaynin]

Oath gives spellpower bonus to the shaman that procs it.

Anyhow, stats isn't everything, biggest factor is lag and playstyle in dps. :p

[Niley]

Oath gives spellpower bonus to the shaman that procs it.

Anyhow, stats isn't everything, biggest factor is lag and playstyle in dps. :p

There is only one way to play, to maximize your dps, there is no playstyles per se.
And stats are 90% of Your dps, then comes skill. Anything above 200ms will make You suck vs other shamans in same gear.
Also 99% of the shamans that I meet are bad, bad specs, bad gearing, bad rotations, just the other day I meet a shaman that stacked spirirt, or one that only used LB...or one that still specced into resto, that's all within 2 days :P

[Kaynin]

Oath gives spellpower bonus to the shaman that procs it.

Anyhow, stats isn't everything, biggest factor is lag and playstyle in dps. :p

There is only one way to play, to maximize your dps, there is no playstyles per se.
And stats are 90% of Your dps, then comes skill. Anything above 200ms will make You suck vs other shamans in same gear.
Also 99% of the shamans that I meet are bad, bad specs, bad gearing, bad rotations, just the other day I meet a shaman that stacked spirirt, or one that only used LB...or one that still specced into resto, that's all within 2 days :P

I agree, but like I said, so many clueless shamans, which I was aiming it, is what makes the most diff.

But for example, one of my shamans has like 375 haste, other three have 250ish, some less some more sp, etc. Not all the same stats, yet I end up with near exactly the same dps in instances. Only very small actual differences. Hence the biggest factor is how well you do your rotation. :P

[Niley]

Oath gives spellpower bonus to the shaman that procs it.

Anyhow, stats isn't everything, biggest factor is lag and playstyle in dps. :p

There is only one way to play, to maximize your dps, there is no playstyles per se.
And stats are 90% of Your dps, then comes skill. Anything above 200ms will make You suck vs other shamans in same gear.
Also 99% of the shamans that I meet are bad, bad specs, bad gearing, bad rotations, just the other day I meet a shaman that stacked spirirt, or one that only used LB...or one that still specced into resto, that's all within 2 days :P

I agree, but like I said, so many clueless shamans, which I was aiming it, is what makes the most diff.

But for example, one of my shamans has like 375 haste, other three have 250ish, some less some more sp, etc. Not all the same stats, yet I end up with near exactly the same dps in instances. Only very small actual differences. Hence the biggest factor is how well you do your rotation. :P

In 5 mans everything dies so quickly that its all up to RNG, I had my lesser shamans out dps my main, that pretty much has everything best in slot, but when a boss drops in 20s, there isn't much to say about dps rotations(other then 2 or 3 bosses, no other bosses will last more then 20-25s)
I actually took my altt shaman to naxx 2 days ago, 25 man, full clear with my guild mixed alt/main run(20 man+shocking so people can finish up their glory of the raider). That's where gear really matters, My alt is not geared for raids, only has like 100 hit, and these are the results:
http://wowwebstats.com/bawk1iflmej3g?s=219943-249558
(top 7 are not alts)
That is almost 2k dps below my main =P on patchwerk.

[puppychow]

for heroics: spell power > haste > crit once you are at 60 hit (which is almost impossible not to hit)
for raiding: hit (till 17% hit cap) > spell power > haste > crit

best advice is to try and have 2 items you can swap around in a few slots (trinket especially), one with haste or crit and one with hit. For heroics use sp/haste/crit, for raiding use hit. A single miss on a boss will just destroy your DPS. For PVP of course sp > resil > haste > crit.

Haste is in many ways a horrible stat for players but great for Blizzard, since it takes SO MUCH to see miniscule returns. It means they can have an easy time upgrading new gear, and it won't horribly imbalance the game by adding an extra 200 haste to a new tier of gear, and most players will see "oo I got 50 more haste I must be super powerful now!!" and be happy.

I would never, ever gem or enchant for haste, always gem or enchant for spell power and choose a secondary stat (hit, haste, stam, etc) when you need to match colors.

Also just look at recount after bosses to see your stats, For example Niley's recount there shows lightning bolt was 69% of the damage on patchwerk, and he missed 2.4% of the time. Every person is going to be slightly different, but you should figure it out for your guys and then enchant/gem/glyph accordingly. I sit around 200-250 hit most of the time so I gem for spell power and crit, since lb is ~50% of my dmg and therefore crit helps me the most, even though its "wasted" on lava burst, lvb is only 30% of my damage.

[Bigfish]

If haste and crit have the same returns as far as dps goes wouldn't haste make you eat more mana to deliver the same dps?

Yes, but I believe there are diminishing returns associated with crit rating and haste as far as item points to 1% increase goes, so the marginal returns don't remain static the more of one or the other you stack.

I think. Not entirely sure there.

[Catamer]

for the shaman I would think haste and crit are equally important.
haste will increase your DPS by the same rate as a crit chance does.

clear casting and elemental oath aside....
a 15% crit chance means in every 100 casts you will crit for double damage on 15 of them ( equivalent to 115 casts, but the mana cost of only 100 casts )
a 15% haste means for the time it took you to cast 100 casts you can now cast 115 ( again 115 casts but the mana cost of 115 )

as you can see, both give the same amount of DPS increase.

I would personally favor crit over haste because of elemental oath and the clearcasting it causes.

[Hachoo]

Elemental oath is a bad reason. I have elemental oath up 100% of the time, no matter what. I can't remember any time when elemental oath wasn't active after the first cast.

Yes, the 18.5% crit is just whats on the character sheet, obviously with elemental oath and other talents its much higher than that.

Also as far as haste reducing mana efficiency, I never have mana issues anyway. Last, haste also effects the global cooldown which helps for burst such as FS->LvB

Anyway, not purposefully going for haste anyway its just what all the gear happens to have on it. And to whoever said 0.3 seconds off of a LB isn't that big of a deal, you're insane. .3s off a LB is HUGE - over the course of 20-30 casts you're looking at 6-9 seconds of extra casting which is ~4 extra lightning bolts which is what, 12000 extra damage - per shaman. :) I only gem for SP (unless I need hit) so the haste right now just seems to be appearing on all the shaman gear.

[Lyonheart]

elemental oath is not a bad reason now that it gives you spell power. The spell power bonus is only when YOU proc EO. So having it up on the boss is not what makes EO so important, in regards to crit.

[Hachoo]

Actually EO only gives you spellpower when YOU proc clearcasting AND EO. So its not as amazing as it sounds (although still good).

[Lyonheart]

Clearcasting happens 100% of the time when you crit. EO is amazing for dps now. But i guess since you crit with LvB every time its up, you should have clearcasting up a lot.

quote" Elemntal Focus - After landing a critical strike with a Fire, Frost, or Nature damage spell, you enter a Clearcasting state. The Clearcasting state reduces the mana cost of your next 2 damage or healing spells by 40%.

edit:I missed the AND EO part, but it still a great dps upgrade from pre 3.08

[Multibocks]

haste is an amazing stat, I know everyone wants to see OOOHBIGNUMBER flash on their screen. My shaman currently run close to 20% haste (not including totem), that's almost PERMANENT bloodlust. I believe you are all familiar with that spell and how devastating it is.

[Fuzzyboy]

Interesting discussion :-)

According to maxdps, at 2k spelldmg unbuffed, with 100 hit rating, 20% crit unbuffed and 550 haste unbuffed, these are the extra stat contributions with a fs/lvb/cl/lb rotation:

(+) 10 Spell Power: 9.29
(+) 10 Haste Rating: 6.23
(+) 10 Crit Rating: 3.85
(+) 10 Hit Rating: 0.00

Or in other words: spellpower > haste > crit

@ 1000 haste with the same other stats:

(+) 10 Spell Power: 10.26
(+) 10 Haste Rating: 6.23
(+) 10 Crit Rating: 4.34
(+) 10 Hit Rating: 0.00

I'm not sure what maxdps' calculations are based on, but it seems to correspond to the general opinion that haste > crit, which is what I'm gearing for. My only concern is that it doesn't take heroism into account, since in terms of 5-man content, heroism will be up about 20-100pct of boss fights (for us shaman boxers anyway).

I'm going to search EJ and see if I can find some more precise answers :-)

[blbjtb]

Dual-Boxing.com Making me a better Wow player since 2008 HAHA

Ya gonna keep on moving along with Our friend Mr. Haste

After reading here and EJ (Which Really OT but EJ gives me a huge headache to read Like It feels like Im actually using brain power for wow)

[Fuzzyboy]

From EJ:

Just to correct two misconceptions:
"In my Patchwerk kill, 64% of my damage came from LB and CL, both of which benefit more from crit than haste (my total damage % which came from spells that benefit from crit > haste is even higher once you consider the first tick of FS and a few Thunderstorms thrown in)" This in incorrect. For pure LB spam, or any combination of LB and CL haste will give you more DPS increase per point than crit.
"With the 3.0.8 patch won't crit be even more important? Keeping Elemental Oath up as much as possible will be a priority. Also, the spells that benefit most from crit (LB and CL) are being buffed." Crit becomes a lot better in absolute terms and moderately-marginally better in relative terms. Regarding EO and CC the issue is diminishing returns. As has already been discussed on these forums, the 2 charge system for clearcasting means that any decently geared Ele will already be at 80%+ uptime for CC. An extra 1% crit will give noticeably less than 1% additional CC uptime. Whilst crit does therefore give us one of our best buffs, stacking it is inefficient in terms of DPS increase.

[Fuzzyboy]

Also from EJ:
There are a couple of reasons why Haste > Crit.
Haste affects everything aside from the FS DoT, while Crit will only affect CL, LB, and the DD portion of FS
Haste also has a lower rating requirement for 1% (~32.7 vs ~45.9 for crit)
Lastly, we already get a high amount of crit. I can be sitting around the 45% mark, so 1% more is a 146/145=0.689% increase, while going from 14% to 15% haste is an increase of 115/114=0.877%

[Hachoo]

Missing a couple pieces of info there - crit also effects magma totems (which haste doesn't I don't believe) as well as other periodic things that can crit. Crit and haste both also effect healing spells - I would imagine this is where haste shines even more though - getting 4x chain heals off 20% faster is a HUGE benefit.

[Fuzzyboy]

Additional thoughts (not from EJ): Doing primarily 5-man instances there are a few things which changes our min/maxing from the EJ min/maxing (which are aimed towards raidiing):

1) Bosses top out at level 82, putting our hitcap much lower (6% instead of 17%)
2) Our gear choices are much more limited
3) We don't have mana issues because boss fights are short

Ad. 1) With a draenei in the party and elemental precision, our effective hit cap is 6% - 3% - 1% = 2% = ca. 53 hit rating. This goal will be reached almost no matter what you do - T7 gloves alone is 42 hit rating with socket bonus, leaving us needing just 11 hit, which can be reached with 1 +hit gem.

[Fuzzyboy]

Missing a couple pieces of info there - crit also effects magma totems (which haste doesn't I don't believe) as well as other periodic things that can crit. Crit and haste both also effect healing spells - I would imagine this is where haste shines even more though - getting 4x chain heals off 20% faster is a HUGE benefit.True with the magma totems - I guess it depends mostly on how you use them. I mostly use them on trash tbh. You're very right about the CH though!

[Gares]

Missing a couple pieces of info there - crit also effects magma totems (which haste doesn't I don't believe) as well as other periodic things that can crit. Crit and haste both also effect healing spells - I would imagine this is where haste shines even more though - getting 4x chain heals off 20% faster is a HUGE benefit.True with the magma totems - I guess it depends mostly on how you use them. I mostly use them on trash tbh. You're very right about the CH though!

I'm pretty much on the boat of not gemming/enchanting for either unless no other option is availble (IE Cloak) other then that its hit->Spellpower as I really don't see any other way to do it to be honest.

[Owltoid]

for the shaman I would think haste and crit are equally important.
haste will increase your DPS by the same rate as a crit chance does.

clear casting and elemental oath aside....
a 15% crit chance means in every 100 casts you will crit for double damage on 15 of them ( equivalent to 115 casts, but the mana cost of only 100 casts )
a 15% haste means for the time it took you to cast 100 casts you can now cast 115 ( again 115 casts but the mana cost of 115 )

as you can see, both give the same amount of DPS increase.

I would personally favor crit over haste because of elemental oath and the clearcasting it causes.

On paper, you're correct. With actual playing lag and enters into play. The more spells you have to cast the more lag affects your DPS (time between casts isn't perfectly timed). In the simple scenario you posted, the haste would be more affected by lag and therefore yield lower DPS.

[Fuzzyboy]

On paper, you're correct. With actual playing lag and enters into play. The more spells you have to cast the more lag affects your DPS (time between casts isn't perfectly timed). In the simple scenario you posted, the haste would be more affected by lag and therefore yield lower DPS.This is true only if you use a castsequence-macro, not if you use a castrandom macro (or manual button spamming with /cast). In the case of /cast and /castrandom the next spell is qued and isn't affected by lag.

[Alemi]

It's generally considered that haste is stacked until you can reduce your LB cast time to 1.6 seconds thereby squeezing 5 lightning bolts in your lvb rotation - at 400 haste i'm at 1.7 seconds. Every elemental shaman should add +10% crit to their character sheet, as has been mentioned (5% from Call of Thunder, and 5% from EO - Thundering Strikes is counted in your CS). So, most ele shaman sit at ~ 30% crit. You can assume 100% uptime on EO as long as you're not missing your flame shocks/lava bursts. From then, assume that you use Lava Burst every up. So you have an 8 Second spam window for LB - squeeze in 4 lightning bolts. The dps increase from going up 5% on crit vs. stacking haste is as follows, and dps associated (I can break out the math if people would like, I'm that much of a dorkus...) using my baseline hits for LB - crit: 7,513 hit: 3,320

@ 30% crit
0 of 4 13,280 damage - 24.01%
1 of 4 17.473 damage - 41.16%
2 of 4 21,666 damage - 26.46%
3 of 4 25.859 damage - 6.56%
4 of 4 30,052 damage - 0.81%
Net DPS - 2256

@35% crit
0 of 4 - 17.85%
1 of 4 - 38.45%
2 of 4 - 31.05%
3 of 4 - 11.15%
4 of 4 - 1.50%
Net DPS - 2393

@ 40% crit
0 of 4 - 12.96%
1 of 4 - 34.56%
2 of 4 - 34.56%
3 of 4 - 15.36%
4 of 4 - 2.56%
Net DPS - 2498

@30% crit w/ 5 LBs
0 of 5 - 16.81%
1 of 5 - 36.02%
2 of 5 - 30.87%
3 of 5 - 13.23%
4 of 5 - 2.84%
5 of 5 - 0.25%
Net DPS - 2861 dps

Stacking haste is FAR superior to crit.

Edit: added in 40% crit dps to show the horrible scaling of crit vs haste.

[Lyonheart]

JEBUS! i need more haste!

[Kaynin]

Ok, to all you haste junkies, here is why haste sucks:

:P

Consider this, to do most dps in long fights, we have to ideally use Lavaburst ASAP when the cd is up again. We all know this fact to be true. So what we do is fit in as much as possible within the time alotted by Lavaburst cooldowns.

Our rotation is basicly like this

FS->LvB->Lb's->Lvb->Lb's

As an example

Let's say you have X amount of haste and with that X amount of haste you can fs-lvb- 4 lb's-lvb- 3 lb's rotation without any loss on the lvb cooldown.

The amount of haste required to be useful after this point would be based on lvb cooldown, which is 8 seconds. Within 8 seconds you need to be able to fit in another spell, to calculate this:

suppose your cl is... 1.3 casting time (roughly) the amount of haste required to get 1.3 seconds more in an 8 second rotation is 16% haste extra, 16% haste will allow you to be able to fit in another cl into your rotation without loosing lvb cast time. adding quite some extra dps without losing lvb cooldown.

If you're still with me. It means that if you reach an ideal rotation, you will need approximatly 512 haste rating MORE before you will be able to do more dps then you already did.

So, I dunno, let's say you have 250 haste rating and have a solid rotation with lb's, maybe a es or cl or two in there that tightens your rotation the best possible way. If you want to improve your dps, you will either need to stock up on crit, or get 512 more haste rating to fit another cl into your rotation.



Figures are not exact, though pretty close and should give a good idea. I generally believe haste matters not, we are stuck with the LvB timer and messing it up, prolonging the cd too long, will severaly impact our dps. Hence haste is not the way to go, even though some calculators say our dps scales better with haste then with crit. For practical use it does not. Unless all you do is spam Lightning Bolts, then yes, haste is better, but you shouldn't be spamming Lightning Bolts. :p

[Alemi]

Figures are not exact, though pretty close and should give a good idea. I generally believe haste matters not, we are stuck with the LvB timer and messing it up, prolonging the cd too long, will severaly impact our dps. Hence haste is not the way to go, even though some calculators say our dps scales better with haste then with crit. For practical use it does not. Unless all you do is spam Lightning Bolts, then yes, haste is better, but you shouldn't be spamming Lightning Bolts. :pCL is horrible to use in any sense of the word now. I can easily fit in 5 lbs now, and loose exactly 0.5 seconds on the lvb cooldown on fights like patchwerk where i stay put. On fights with movement, I can get my lbs off a lot faster. On fights like Malygos, you can see a HUGE difference in dps, FS/LVB/LB until LVB Is back, rinse repeat.

Regardless, stack what you want. I'm not yet at the 400 haste cap (500 with the totem proc), but practicality wise in both 25 man and 10 man settings, haste IS the way to go. Agree or disagree, that is up to you - crit scales horribly, do the math and you'll see.

Practicality wise, at 0 haste, you can't fit in 4 lbs into your Lvb rotation dealing with minor server lag and human error. Any haste at all and you'll be able to hit it.

[Hachoo]

I utterly disagree that CL is horrible. For boss fights, maybe, but on trash if I don't use CL my recount DPS drops ~500.

I'd also like to keep this MOSTLY on topic for multiboxing. Timers, perfect rotations, etc, are all moot points for 5 boxing IMO - no one is going to get the exact optimal rotation with 4 shamans and a tank unless they're using cast sequences which have their own major latency delay. I think most people here (when 5 boxing) use castrandom or castsequences so talking about needing X haste to make this exact rotation work under 100ms latency is kind of silly. It might be helpful when solo boxing but not 5 boxing.

[Kaynin]

Figures are not exact, though pretty close and should give a good idea. I generally believe haste matters not, we are stuck with the LvB timer and messing it up, prolonging the cd too long, will severaly impact our dps. Hence haste is not the way to go, even though some calculators say our dps scales better with haste then with crit. For practical use it does not. Unless all you do is spam Lightning Bolts, then yes, haste is better, but you shouldn't be spamming Lightning Bolts. :pCL is horrible to use in any sense of the word now. I can easily fit in 5 lbs now, and loose exactly 0.5 seconds on the lvb cooldown on fights like patchwerk where i stay put. On fights with movement, I can get my lbs off a lot faster. On fights like Malygos, you can see a HUGE difference in dps, FS/LVB/LB until LVB Is back, rinse repeat.

Regardless, stack what you want. I'm not yet at the 400 haste cap (500 with the totem proc), but practicality wise in both 25 man and 10 man settings, haste IS the way to go. Agree or disagree, that is up to you - crit scales horribly, do the math and you'll see.

Practicality wise, at 0 haste, you can't fit in 4 lbs into your Lvb rotation dealing with minor server lag and human error. Any haste at all and you'll be able to hit it.


five lb's. Oo

I can barely do 4 with 250 haste and loose out on cooldown slightly in doing so. Are your figures bloodlusted or unbloodlusted?



Castrandom and castsequences make my dps drop like a brick btw, I click all spells manually.

[Alemi]

I utterly disagree that CL is horrible. For boss fights, maybe, but on trash if I don't use CL my recount DPS drops ~500.

I'd also like to keep this MOSTLY on topic for multiboxing. Timers, perfect rotations, etc, are all moot points for 5 boxing IMO - no one is going to get the exact optimal rotation with 4 shamans and a tank unless they're using cast sequences which have their own major latency delay. I think most people here (when 5 boxing) use castrandom or castsequences so talking about needing X haste to make this exact rotation work under 100ms latency is kind of silly. It might be helpful when solo boxing but not 5 boxing.Using a castsequence on your shamans with your dk tank? I use 2 castsequences on my dk, each with 2 spells and 1 castsequence on the shamans for totems. I see no need to use any other.

CL on trash yes, but we're talking boss fights. CL is useless for single target dps post 3.08. Single target dps if you're using a castrandom, then you're not maximizing your dps, and this is a moot point. Pre 3.08, you wanted to stack crit, Post 3.08 you want to stack haste once you hit the 20% crit mark. The increase in dps from haste will outweight your increase in dps from crit.

Then again, if you're just using a castrandom and button mashing, then it really doesn't matter anyway. And I think Kaynin and I are both talking multiboxing, since we've both multiboxed Naxx, not solo play. I may be mistaken, but I'm talking multiboxing.

[Hachoo]

Using castrandom doesn't negate the benefits of Haste vs Crit, not sure why you would say that. Haste still makes you cast faster and crit still makes you crit more often, it really doesn't matter whether you have a perfect rotation or not. It might be as optimal, but it still has great effects (obviously, otherwise my DPS wouldn't change with gear).

I use a cast sequence on my DK because I have to really, and because it doesn't really affect anything. On my shamans, using /castsequence drops DPS and causes latency which is why I manually apply FS, manually cast 4x LvB, and then /castrandom the rest of the fight.

[Zzc2]

I think hit is better than haste until you get 200+ hit, then i go spell power > haste.
Hit is good because I hate when my lava bursts miss. Crit is nice because everytime a crit lands, my spell power is increased by 10% for next two casts. So getting to ~30% crit with buffs is good. After that, take haste gear as long as your hit > 200 / crit > 30% / spellpower not lowered.

[BobGnarly]

I honestly have to laugh at all the different voodoo approaches to picking stats that people have. Get X until the third day of the month, then take Y until your first son is born then it's Z all the way until you are level A, then take Q, and blah blah blah.

There are some fairly decent rules of thumb, like getting hit is a fairly safe bet until you're capped. Know why? No, it isn't because hit is just soooo awesome, it's because for its budget cost, it blows everything else away (meaning you will generally get more hit for a given piece of gear, so the upgrade will be greater). However, even these rules are subject to interpretation, and while I know I'm a pretty anal person about it, some of you could seriously use some education on the subject. To point, I'll make a controversial assertion: There are times, even before you are at the hit cap, when you might take crit/haste/spellpower over similar amounts of hit rating.

Haste is not crap, and it doesn't have diminishing returns. It has one HUGE advantage over crit and that is that it takes RNG out of the picture. You get X haste, that's what you got, just like spellpower. You get crit, and ya, over time it's going to provide X dps, but is it going to provide it when you need it? Maybe, maybe not. To be clear, I'm not saying crit sucks either, because its fun, decent, and has tons of other play as well, like elemental oath.

Bottom line - If you want a rule of thumb, sure, pick one of the ones listed here and go with it. If you're serious about really figuring out what is the best for your toon, you have to consider where your toon is now. The gear you have will always affect this decision, and BY FAR the best way to make it is to use some of the theorycrafting tools out there like RAWR. There just is no substitute if you're serious about it.

[Alemi]

Using castrandom doesn't negate the benefits of Haste vs Crit, not sure why you would say that.
Because your rotation is: "Whatever the RNG picks", it might be lb, lb, cl, lb, lvb, fs one fight then cl, lb, lvb, fs, fs, lb, cl the next who knows. The points that have been made are moot since you've just injected another sense of randomness to your own equation. What's in your cast random? Are you spamming it like has been suggested in previous posts?

Really, my point is, until you give us more information about your rotation or your castrandom and how you use it, there's no way anyone can tell you which one is better because the baseline of most dps theorycrafting, here and on other sites (like EJ where I post often) assume a standard rotation. Because rotation random #1 might benefit more from haste, but then rotation random #2 might benefit more from crit.

In all reality, you're probably just better stacking crit. The only real benefit elemental shamans get from haste is squeezing in another lightning bolt into the lvb rotation. Your dps increase would likely be marginal if you stacked enough of it since you're just throwing spells at random.
There are some fairly decent rules of thumb, like getting hit is a fairly safe bet until you're capped. Know why? No, it isn't because hit is just soooo awesome, it's because for its budget cost, it blows everything else away (meaning you will generally get more hit for a given piece of gear, so the upgrade will be greater). However, even these rules are subject to interpretation, and while I know I'm a pretty anal person about it, some of you could seriously use some education on the subject. And to this point. The reason hit is so important for elemental shaman is that if you miss a flame shock, you don't crit a lava burst. If you miss a lava burst, you then don't get a guaranteed proc of clearcast and elemental oath. So, if you're not hit capped in a raid setting, you're relying a lot on RNG to put out continual significant dps.

[valkry]

CD on lava burst is 8 seconds, you can run with 0% chancre to crit oath will be up all the time yea? Except if you miss ofc.

[Fuzzyboy]

I think hit is better than haste until you get 200+ hit, then i go spell power > haste.
Hit is good because I hate when my lava bursts miss. Crit is nice because everytime a crit lands, my spell power is increased by 10% for next two casts. So getting to ~30% crit with buffs is good. After that, take haste gear as long as your hit > 200 / crit > 30% / spellpower not lowered.I'm assuming you're kidding? :-)

[valkry]

The logic behund that seems reasonable, just needs to be tested if it works or not. I too believe that if you are critting every 3rd hit the clearcasting buff would be massive.

[Hachoo]

Using castrandom doesn't negate the benefits of Haste vs Crit, not sure why you would say that.
Because your rotation is: "Whatever the RNG picks", it might be lb, lb, cl, lb, lvb, fs one fight then cl, lb, lvb, fs, fs, lb, cl the next who knows. The points that have been made are moot since you've just injected another sense of randomness to your own equation. What's in your cast random? Are you spamming it like has been suggested in previous posts?

Really, my point is, until you give us more information about your rotation or your castrandom and how you use it, there's no way anyone can tell you which one is better because the baseline of most dps theorycrafting, here and on other sites (like EJ where I post often) assume a standard rotation. Because rotation random #1 might benefit more from haste, but then rotation random #2 might benefit more from crit.

In all reality, you're probably just better stacking crit. The only real benefit elemental shamans get from haste is squeezing in another lightning bolt into the lvb rotation. Your dps increase would likely be marginal if you stacked enough of it since you're just throwing spells at random.
There are some fairly decent rules of thumb, like getting hit is a fairly safe bet until you're capped. Know why? No, it isn't because hit is just soooo awesome, it's because for its budget cost, it blows everything else away (meaning you will generally get more hit for a given piece of gear, so the upgrade will be greater). However, even these rules are subject to interpretation, and while I know I'm a pretty anal person about it, some of you could seriously use some education on the subject. And to this point. The reason hit is so important for elemental shaman is that if you miss a flame shock, you don't crit a lava burst. If you miss a lava burst, you then don't get a guaranteed proc of clearcast and elemental oath. So, if you're not hit capped in a raid setting, you're relying a lot on RNG to put out continual significant dps.This post makes even less sense than your first one. I'm starting to think you don't understand how any of this works. You're saying haste is worthless if you don't use it to squeeze an extra LB in before a LvB? While I agree being able to do that is nice, its only a small part of haste helping out elemental shamans. Just because I use castrandom and don't squeeze in 5 LBs between LvBs doesn't mean the haste doesn't SPEED UP all of my casts, making my Chain Heals faster, making all casts faster therefore getting in more casts over the course of a boss fight then I would get in without haste.

The bottom line is, castrandom with 0 haste vs castrandom with 15% haste is a HUGE difference. castrandom with 30% crit vs castrandom with 40% crit is a difference also but I disagree that its anywhere near as much of a difference as the haste.

Your posts make you sound elitist except the fact that they're extremely narrow views and not looking at even 25% of the picture much less the whole picture.

[Catamer]

I think the biggest increase in DPS must be from a crit cast because of haste.

if haste increases your cast rate by 15% so that you have 15 more cast per 100, then any crit that happens in those extra 15 casts is a huge increase in dps. ( more that just 2x, it's more like 3x or 4x )
So you want both. a good crit rating and a good haste rating.

[Kaynin]

castrandom benefits most from haste but it isn't the way to do the most dps. :P

I'd do at most 2800ish with castrandom. I do 3800 in a similar fight clicking all my spells manually, focusing on the best possible LvB rotation without much or any loss on LvB cd.

[Lyonheart]

[/quote] five lb's. Oo

I can barely do 4 with 250 haste and loose out on cooldown slightly in doing so. Are your figures bloodlusted or unbloodlusted?


Castrandom and castsequences make my dps drop like a brick btw, I click all spells manually.[/quote]



When boxing? click? how?

[valkry]

Hmm, WHATEVER!! All good mail spell power gear basically has crit AND haste on it, so you don't have to worry about it. Sure it's nice to be able to choose what you want more, but mostly you KNOW when an item is a clear upgrade over the other. Basically though, if you are wondering about gems, go +hit until you get capped. Hit rating is cheaper than crit and haste and is a flat increase, 1% hit rating is 1% dps, 1% crit or haste is not necessarily 1% dps.

I can see the argument though that haste is almost useles suntil you get enough to be able to squeeze in an extra lb before lvb comes off cd. Because if you are casting while it comes off cd, that's time wasted that could be spent casting lvb as it's the highest dps spell. What you want is a rotation that will your cast end at the exact moment lvb comes off cd so you can cast it straight away. It makes sense imo.

[Multibocks]

Not to sound elitist, but so much fail in this thread. This post ('http://elitistjerks.com/1052674-post128.html') from Elitist Jerks, go there, read the whole damn thread and then do your own testing and come back in here and spout some knowledge. If you are too lazy to do that then just follow this:

3.0.3 3.0.8 3.0.8 (With BL)
SP: 1.000 1.000 1.000
Crit: 0.476 0.602 0.585
Haste: 0.999 0.931 0.891

Now notice, LOOK DAMNIT. Crit sucks vs haste OK? OK!? This is not someone saying "I feel" or "in my opinion" this is tried and true(and simulated) work. These guys are incredibly smart and to just shrug that off and do you own thing is fine, but quit throwing in your opinion likes it means a damn or is anything close to fact.

I can't believe I read that haste doesnt help /castrandom people. Do you understand how haste works? Did you know you are not supposed to cast CL when under bloodlust? Read the thread ('http://elitistjerks.com/1052674-post128.html').

edit: Also, although /castrandom will never equal someone manually casting their system of spells; the above values for stats are still valid. So dont say haste sucks for us because we use /castrandom. If you want to find what rotation you should be doing, then read the thread. It is not an easy question to answer. I gave up trying to be that perfect and am happy with my castrandom.

[Multibocks]

I can see the argument though that haste is almost useles suntil you get enough to be able to squeeze in an extra lb before lvb comes off cd. Because if you are casting while it comes off cd, that's time wasted that could be spent casting lvb as it's the highest dps spell. What you want is a rotation that will your cast end at the exact moment lvb comes off cd so you can cast it straight away. It makes sense imo.

No, no, no. Pushing back your LvB with a CL cast (non-BL) is better than waiting for it. HASTE IS GOOD DAMNIT, quit saying this stuff. You have to plan out your rotation based on what equipment haste you have. Then if you want to be a super nerd you plan out a rotation when you have BL up. Your rotation is to fit in between LvBs CL and LB, and keep it close, meaning if you find you are sitting for 1sec with nothing to cast before your next LvB, then cast SOMETHING. If you want to throw CL in, then do it after LvB. I'm not going to do the work for you, but everyone here is quite capable of doing it.

[valkry]

I can see the argument though that haste is almost useles suntil you get enough to be able to squeeze in an extra lb before lvb comes off cd. Because if you are casting while it comes off cd, that's time wasted that could be spent casting lvb as it's the highest dps spell. What you want is a rotation that will your cast end at the exact moment lvb comes off cd so you can cast it straight away. It makes sense imo.

No, no, no. Pushing back your LvB with a CL cast (non-BL) is better than waiting for it. HASTE IS GOOD DAMNIT, quit saying this stuff. You have to plan out your rotation based on what equipment haste you have. Then if you want to be a super nerd you plan out a rotation when you have BL up. Your rotation is to fit in between LvBs CL and LB, and keep it close, meaning if you find you are sitting for 1sec with nothing to cast before your next LvB, then cast SOMETHING. If you want to throw CL in, then do it after LvB. I'm not going to do the work for you, but everyone here is quite capable of doing it.
I never said haste is bad. I was just stating that I can see why people theorycraft that haste isn't as good if it means you are wasting time not lvBursting. Never did I claim what I was saying was fact, I was claiming that I can see the logic behind why people think this may be so. I didn't say it was right, i didn't say it was wrong, I said I can see why people would consider this for research in theorycrafting. Did you read my last part? I said you need a rotation that fits which is basically what you told me to do in your reply. Duh.

I bloody know haste is good, I was there for the rise of the resto shammy in BT and sunwell.

[Alemi]

This post makes even less sense than your first one. I'm starting to think you don't understand how any of this works. You're saying haste is worthless if you don't use it to squeeze an extra LB in before a LvB? While I agree being able to do that is nice, its only a small part of haste helping out elemental shamans. Just because I use castrandom and don't squeeze in 5 LBs between LvBs doesn't mean the haste doesn't SPEED UP all of my casts, making my Chain Heals faster, making all casts faster therefore getting in more casts over the course of a boss fight then I would get in without haste.

The bottom line is, castrandom with 0 haste vs castrandom with 15% haste is a HUGE difference. castrandom with 30% crit vs castrandom with 40% crit is a difference also but I disagree that its anywhere near as much of a difference as the haste.

Your posts make you sound elitist except the fact that they're extremely narrow views and not looking at even 25% of the picture much less the whole picture.The post makes complete sense if you think about it. But there's little arguing with you and your understanding of the situation.

Point being, there's no way to tell you what would be better, what cap you should attain since you have no rotation to ANALYZE. Example: A cast random rotation of LB, LB, LB, LB, LB, LB, LVB would benefit more from haste, whereas a random rotation of LVB, LB, LB, LB, LVB, CL, LB would benefit more from haste because in random rotation one, you don't have a guarnteed EO/Clearcast up, and you're relying on an early crit for clearcast, whereas the 2nd rotation would benefit from haste because you have a guarnteed EO and Clearcast early and you don't miss a LVB shot. Get it? I really can't see how to make this any clearer - you're adding a 2nd random factor of a spellcast, period. You ask a BLANKET question, expect a blanket answer, and when it can't be provided, with a clear reasoning why, you miss the point.

You faceroll on your keyboard with castrandom so there's no point in trying to min/max which is what your ORIGINAL question was asking. And, since we're sitting here making personal attacks, I'm not elitis; I just know what the hell I'm talking about. Your reasoning however sound ignorant and laughable because the thread title is "When to stop gathering haste?" Which would lead one to believe you're asking how to maximize your DPS, and it was said just a few posts above me.

castrandom benefits most from haste but it isn't the way to do the most dps.

I agree with Multibocks - haste has been debated over and over again on EJ. I've posted the same calculations there that have been posted here, and the CONCENSUS is, haste gives constant benefit without RNG and offers a more consistent dps increase. The dps #s I posted here are quite clear on that, so take it with a grain of salt, but there's little point in trying to debate hard math here. Look it up, do it yourself, test it on a dummy.

[Multibocks]

castrandom benefits most from haste but it isn't the way to do the most dps

No one said castrandom is the way to do the most dps. Not many here will watch their cast bar on their shamans and use priority system for maximizing dps while AT THE SAME TIME tanking the boss. It's just too much micro managing going on. With that said, /castrandom sure makes it real easy to do pretty good dps. My shaman routinely top DPS meters on PUG(wooowooo I know, but its something) raids where I am too lazy to prioritize my casting. Still haste is going to benefit /castrandom users almost exactly as the numbers I posted earlier. I can't believe we are even arguing how haste helps any cast sequence.

[Multibocks]

I can see the argument though that haste is almost useles suntil you get enough to be able to squeeze in an extra lb before lvb comes off cd. Because if you are casting while it comes off cd, that's time wasted that could be spent casting lvb as it's the highest dps spell. What you want is a rotation that will your cast end at the exact moment lvb comes off cd so you can cast it straight away. It makes sense imo.

No, no, no. Pushing back your LvB with a CL cast (non-BL) is better than waiting for it. HASTE IS GOOD DAMNIT, quit saying this stuff. You have to plan out your rotation based on what equipment haste you have. Then if you want to be a super nerd you plan out a rotation when you have BL up. Your rotation is to fit in between LvBs CL and LB, and keep it close, meaning if you find you are sitting for 1sec with nothing to cast before your next LvB, then cast SOMETHING. If you want to throw CL in, then do it after LvB. I'm not going to do the work for you, but everyone here is quite capable of doing it.
I never said haste is bad. I was just stating that I can see why people theorycraft that haste isn't as good if it means you are wasting time not lvBursting. Never did I claim what I was saying was fact, I was claiming that I can see the logic behind why people think this may be so. I didn't say it was right, i didn't say it was wrong, I said I can see why people would consider this for research in theorycrafting. Did you read my last part? I said you need a rotation that fits which is basically what you told me to do in your reply. Duh.

I bloody know haste is good, I was there for the rise of the resto shammy in BT and sunwell.

Sorry misunderstood you post.

[Kaynin]

five lb's. Oo

I can barely do 4 with 250 haste and loose out on cooldown slightly in doing so. Are your figures bloodlusted or unbloodlusted?


Castrandom and castsequences make my dps drop like a brick btw, I click all spells manually.



When boxing? click? how?

It's dutch, the word for press button in dutch literally translated is 'click button'. :P I meant press ofcourse.

[Multibocks]

Can't wait to see what they do with haste for melee, currently its a pretty bad stat to stack.

[Catamer]

as for the Elitist Jerks thread.
they were showing what a +1 rating to any of the stats helped.
The original poster of these charts showed that hit rating was the best, followed by haste and then by crit.
it did not take into account the dimished returns on a hit rating ( if you have an original 5% chance to miss but a hit rating equivalent to 6% , then you wasted 1% that gives you no benifit ).

I believe the +1 to haste is better than +1 to crit is the way they weight the values so that +1 crit is only so much of an % chance to crit, and +1 to haste seems to be larger % speed increase in casting.

My logic is still correct though.
a 15% chance to crit will have you do the damage of 115 cast for every 100 casts.
a 15% haste will have you cast 115 times in the time you would normally do 100 casts.
a mob that has 5% chance to miss will have only have you hit 95 cast in 100 casts ( no hast, no crit ) a chance to miss is like the opposite of haste.

the % chance to miss is huge until you have the increased % chance to hit that matches your mob ( so much for heroics, so much for raids, etc )
haste and crit when measured by % (not in rating ) are equivalent but any haste produced cast that crits is where you get your largest increase in DPS.

you want all 3 except that hit rating has diminished returns after you have a hit rating equivalent to the target you are casting against.