What are shaman groups seeing for DPS in heroics?

[Hachoo]

I'm a little concerned about my DPS. Running an Unholy DK + 4 elemental shaman team, with recount. I have ~1600 spellpower on my shamans with flametongue weapon (but not including totem of wrath). Typically through an instance I see recount showing my 4 Shamans roughly even at ~1500-1600 DPS, and my DK at around 900 DPS.

How does this compare to others here? It seems like it should be higher, since I hear about moonkins and mages doing 3500+ dps, etc, unless those are "theoretical" dps numbers and not actual recount numbers. The only thing that slows my DPS down is that since I'm running 4 elemental shamans they have to heal occasionally too.

Just want something to compare against to see if I'm doing something wrong or what.

Most instance fights I open up with my DK, then do 4x flameshock 4x LvB, then spam the following macro:

/castrandom [target=focustarget] Lightning Bolt,Chain Lightning,Lava Burst,Purge

Input?

[pinotnoir]

That is about right for elemental shaman with your gear. I am pretty sure we have the lowest dps of all dps spec classes in the game. My 70 mage was doing 1300dps and my shaman lvl 80 in vault raids gets maybe 1700. And thats busting my ass to keep a constant rotation up.

[Multibocks]

the 3500 you hear getting tossed around is in raid settings. I pulled 2400 dps on heroic vault today (soloing on one shaman) and thats with tossing chain heals off when the AE damage got bad. I was 3rd on the charts too! PUGs make me realize how good I have it.

[Ruodhaid]

My paladin is doing about 1500dps, but the shamans just about 1200 eatch, its kinda funnt that my tank out dpsed my dpsérs :)

but i think that will change soon, as my paladin have been 80 for a long time, and my shamans just hit 80 saturday. but well gear will change and shamans will be buffed

[Meeo]

My 2 Ele Shamans do around 1700 to 1800, in heroics, 2100 to 2200 generally on the lower side, in 10/25 man naxx.

My boomkin, 1 button spam castrandom, does around 2300 to 2700 dps on heroic bosses and for his pretty weak gear hes does near 3K in 10/25 naxx

[mmcookies]

what addon do you guys use to measure DPS? is there a standard?

[Meeo]

Most people use Recount, i use recount and do my own WWS Reports.

[Hachoo]

Ok I don't feel quite as bad then. Can't wait until 3.0.8 (ugh I hope its tomorrow) to see how much my DPS goes up - between the LB/LvB change I should gain a lot - 63% of my damage is generally from lightning bolt (usually use LB and LvB only on bosses to conserve mana).

[pinotnoir]

Dont expect a huge increase from the patch. We will still suck for dps. And you have to love the devs idea of aoe. Here shaman use magma totem to aoe and dont drop your totem of wrath. Pretty stupid to do aoe you need to ignore one of the talented totems elementals get that boost group/raid damage. If you were in a raid I am sure the raid would do more damage with your wrath totem than you dropping a shitty magma.

[Multibocks]

be nice if they had a Totem of the Tsunami that did water splash damage or Totem of the Storm that did wind nature damage... etc.

[Hachoo]

Dont expect a huge increase from the patch. We will still suck for dps. And you have to love the devs idea of aoe. Here shaman use magma totem to aoe and dont drop your totem of wrath. Pretty stupid to do aoe you need to ignore one of the talented totems elementals get that boost group/raid damage. If you were in a raid I am sure the raid would do more damage with your wrath totem than you dropping a shitty magma.Why would I not expect more DPS from the patch? I know how to read. Free 10% more spell power to LB, 20% more spell power to LvB, not to mention freeing up a bunch of talent points giving me spare ones to add to mp5 talents, damage talents, etc. All in all even if we're still "lower" then other classes, its quite a LARGE dps boost.

[pinotnoir]

My 2 Ele Shamans do around 1700 to 1800, in heroics, 2100 to 2200 generally on the lower side, in 10/25 man naxx.

My boomkin, 1 button spam castrandom, does around 2300 to 2700 dps on heroic bosses and for his pretty weak gear hes does near 3K in 10/25 naxx

This is why I say dont expect much. As fur said maybe a 6% increase in damage. Take a look at his shaman vs druid dps. We are suppose to be on par with a moonkin but we are far from it. Elemental shaman dps is terrible. When you have to be naxx geared to do the dps other classes can do with heroics and 5 mans there is a major problem. Yes the buffs in damage are nice. However, they need to do much more work on elemental dps. When tanks can outdps a dps spec something big needs to change. So far the new changes dont close the gap in my eyes.

[Meeo]

My 2 Ele Shamans do around 1700 to 1800, in heroics, 2100 to 2200 generally on the lower side, in 10/25 man naxx.

My boomkin, 1 button spam castrandom, does around 2300 to 2700 dps on heroic bosses and for his pretty weak gear hes does near 3K in 10/25 naxx

This is why I say dont expect much. As fur said maybe a 6% increase in damage. Take a look at his shaman vs druid dps. We are suppose to be on par with a moonkin but we are far from it. Elemental shaman dps is terrible. When you have to be naxx geared to do the dps other classes can do with heroics and 5 mans there is a major problem. Yes the buffs in damage are nice. However, they need to do much more work on elemental dps. When tanks can outdps a dps spec something big needs to change. So far the new changes dont close the gap in my eyes.

Yeah, i myself am hoping for at least 200 to 300+ dps increase, agian that is a hope, we will probably see around 100 maybe 150?

[Kicksome]

I got just under 3K dps on the test dummies solo buffed on the test server. VERY nice increase IMO. On top of the magma totem changes, this is really nice!

The Magma totem changes alone are really nice. They are 650 normal to 1300 crit per pulse. vs like 250 pre-patch. Going to be really nice for AOE.

My druid is pretty geared and he's not out-dpsing my shaman by more than +/- 100dps (single target). Maybe I'm doing something wrong. I just use /castrandom wrath, starfall

Although, the druid AOE spell is NUTS, I crit for like 1600 per pulse.

[Niley]

Shamans wil be fine after the patch, we're not too bad off right now, deep ele I can do 4500(its been so long since i was deep ele, all wws expired, so no link), so Im hoping t0 gain another 300ish dps from the patch.

[emesis]

I got just under 3K dps on the test dummies solo buffed on the test server. VERY nice increase IMO. On top of the magma totem changes, this is really nice!

The Magma totem changes alone are really nice. They are 650 normal to 1300 crit per pulse. vs like 250 pre-patch. Going to be really nice for AOE.

My druid is pretty geared and he's not out-dpsing my shaman by more than +/- 100dps (single target). Maybe I'm doing something wrong. I just use /castrandom wrath, starfall

Although, the druid AOE spell is NUTS, I crit for like 1600 per pulse.

May I ask what macro you're using for Shaman DPS? Or at least cast sequence?

Or at least a link to your armory profiles? :D

This looks like Kicksome's guild:

http://www.wowarmory.com/guild-info.xml?r=Gorefiend&n=unGankable&p=1

3K DPS solo buffed sounds like a lot more than I would expect. I do see he has at least one shammy with the dual-wield hybrid spec.

I'd love to hear some PTR versus live numbers comparing apples to apples and with full details shared. I'd do it but <must gear up>

:-)

[Catamer]

I start with a flame shock and then use /castrandom lava burst,chain lightning,lightning bolt,purge,flame shock
and get apx the same DPS as my current hit points for a single boss fight so my unbuffed stats are
+1700 spell
20% crit
140 hit
=======
dps is apx 1700 ( with totems down )

maxdps.com says I should be doing over 2000 dps with only 1500 spell and 15% crit.
I know I have to do a group chain heal once in a while so maybe it's the chain heal that's killing my dps numbers.
anyone doing better than this with using a castsequence instead of castrandom ?

[Meeo]

Shamans wil be fine after the patch, we're not too bad off right now, deep ele I can do 4500(its been so long since i was deep ele, all wws expired, so no link), so Im hoping t0 gain another 300ish dps from the patch.

I would highly interested in any WWS you could get showing this, im curious to the see the data to figure out why many of the current 25 man t7 shamans are no where near that kind of DPS that is not a hybrid.

[Kicksome]

Just to clarify, I'm getting just under 3K dps with the deep ele build on the PTR on a level 80 training dummy. I'm using the FS, LvB,CL, LB sequence, done by hand on a single target (no heroism), solo buffed. With my Hybrid spec, best I get is around 2.6K in 10 man naxx on live.

With this toon: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Gorefiend&n=Sweetcups

[Hachoo]

Also, to clarify on my earlier posts, a buff is a buff. Right now I can run heroics just fine. If they're giving my DK a tank buff and all 4 of my elemental shamans a DPS buff (even if thats only 6% which actually for me I bet its more since I probably don't use an optimal rotation, I'm guessing my DPS will actually jump more like 10-12%) will make heroics that were tough before a lot easier, and heroics that were normal before a total cakewalk. I'm very excited for this patch. Really its mostly just the PvPers that are "down" about the current patch, in which case why are you even posting in the PvE forum? This patch is a HUGE PvE buff for my entire team.

[Kicksome]

With my pally, shamanx3 and druid I have 0 problems in heroics (dps wise). DPS is not an issue and I average around 2K on boss fights in heroics.

I could just as easy use 1x pally and 4x shaman. My druid is rarely at the top of boss fights anyway, although I get the 13% added damage, which is nice.

It's just annoying having decent gear on my shaman and barely coming in the top 10 DPS on naxx 25. And REALLY annoying seeing blue geared people with no enchants beat my shamans on DPS.

[Meeo]

And yes, I totally agree here. I'm actually looking forward to leveling up my Warrior, Priest, 3x BM Hunter team because of the DPS they are capable of now.

I agree with Fursphere, im about to go to one of those setups myself, but im going to wait it out until i see 3.0.8. Even if its a slight boost its moving forward, and hopefully they will fix it,.If i see no signs of the change after patch, if it still bad, then i will probably change my group orientation.

[Multibocks]

My problem in heroics has never been DPS, it's been ohshitIforgottohealthetank or whatthellhowdidthatshamandie? Or bosses that are just ridiculous in dps that straight up healing and no dps will last through (I'm looking at you VH bosses) or guantlet style shit where one mess up means death (CoS, first boss in AN, Skadi). Really dps is no big deal, I might take a little longer to kill a boss, but its never been "shit if only I had more dps that boss would have died."

edit: however I find it really sad how bad our dps is compared to the darlings of WoW (boomkins, mages, hunters) and I am glad they are at least doing something.

[Hachoo]

I still run out of mana on my shamans in some fights where higher +spellpower would help as I would have to heal less, and cast less before the boss dies, therefore removing my mana issue. This is with 16.5k mana and something like 279mp5 with water shield up (not including mana spring totem).

Also with the talents being condensed I can now take all 3 points in the 12% of intellect as mp5 talent.

[Multibocks]

strange I run 3 healing stream and 1 mana spring totem and I havent run oom on a boss yet. CoS today was a little heavy on usage since its a guantlet, but as long as its not a boss you can drink. I'm thinking of speccing into resto on all my elemental shaman for the +25% healing stream... right now at 3 it means I can almost ignore my shaman on most fights and focus on dps and healing tank.

[Niley]

Shamans wil be fine after the patch, we're not too bad off right now, deep ele I can do 4500(its been so long since i was deep ele, all wws expired, so no link), so Im hoping t0 gain another 300ish dps from the patch.

How? Seriously.

Just like I'm doing 5500 as ele/hybrid spec. Yet no other shaman believes me until they see parses...I explained how in another thread, but honestly all it takes is practice, and making Your rotation perfect(yes I spent propably 4-5 hours on a dummy perfecting my rotation :/). Highest hybrid spec Ive seen other then me was 4780.



Shamans wil be fine after the patch, we're not too bad off right now, deep ele I can do 4500(its been so long since i was deep ele, all wws expired, so no link), so Im hoping t0 gain another 300ish dps from the patch.

I would highly interested in any WWS you could get showing this, im curious to the see the data to figure out why many of the current 25 man t7 shamans are no where near that kind of DPS that is not a hybrid.
15 days expiration on our wws account is fail, i would love to show it, but like i said before i don't have access to it anymore.

[pinotnoir]

Well I dont see the majority of us multiboxing shaman getting access to the gear you have. Until we can get full 25man gear our dps is going to suck. You should post your information on the shaman boards. I have not see anyone claiming dps numbers as high as you on any of them. Grats to you. :thumbsup:

[Kicksome]

I've seen a bunch of Niley's parses when he linked them a while back, he really did that crazy dps.

One thing I noticed at the time, he put down a searing totem which increased dps a bit. I think it was like 300 or 500 dps increase. I forget exactly, but that was something different from what I am/was doing.

[Niley]

Well I dont see the majority of us multiboxing shaman getting access to the gear you have. Until we can get full 25man gear our dps is going to suck. You should post your information on the shaman boards. I have not see anyone claiming dps numbers as high as you on any of them. Grats to you. :thumbsup:

I do reply on shaman boards from time to time,and give advice to people....but usually I try to avoid them, too many people trolling and crying about stuff. I like this forums a whole lot more :D

[Niley]

well just to keep this thread on right tracks, I found a ss that i think Ive posted before, thsi si from few weeks back, when my slave shammies didn't really had taht good of a gear(now they all have 2 piece t7 etc).
I did this dps test on a dummy, and with cast random macro, no heroism(You can see cd on exhaustion, but that's from my previous try on the heroic dummy)
http://www.hdimage.org/images/pdl5dcspsvhfca058y3r_eledeepzzszsz.jpg


and, Im changing my team too, its going to be Dk tank, Mage, Holy Priest, Elemental shaman x2 - started priest and mage yesterday, and they're almost 60 now. I was considering a moonkin, but I think I'll gain much more from a mage, 10% crit/water/ports/sheep/int, from moonkin i dont really get anything but motw/brez and o sh!t heal.

[Niley]

I was just looking at that SS in the other thread. I'm still boggled by your numbers. :D
I think having a dk added a whole lot more dps to my group, Ive been having some moments when I think in my head " O sh!t" that boss died so fast, after i swapped from pally to dk tank.
Im going to try do one more of those test things soon, see how it goes with better gear and maybe heroism.

[Niley]

I was just looking at that SS in the other thread. I'm still boggled by your numbers. :D
I think having a dk added a whole lot more dps to my group, Ive been having some moments when I think in my head " O sh!t" that boss died so fast, after i swapped from pally to dk tank.
Im going to try do one more of those test things soon, see how it goes with better gear and maybe heroism.

You know, I tried something similar to the 13% DK thing.

Afflication Warlock brings Imp. Curse of Elements - 13% increase dmg from all magic sources ('cept holy). It didn't seem to help _at_all_

13% is huge, on lava burst alone that lets say crits for 8k on average its over 1000 damage, now do that times 4(lets say that my main crits for 8k too, although in reality its much more) and You're ending up with 4k extra damage every 8s alone. And that's just tip of an iceberg, as Your every cast is increased.

[puppychow]

MY god Niley you are a machine! You just started a mage and priest and they are 60 already???? I have a druid I'm leveling, I can't be arsed to level more than 4-5 levels a week (lol). My DK is level 56 and I started him a week ago, lol.

just focusing on PVE is a lot more fun than trying to mix in PVP right now (and by PVP i mean arena, bgs and wg is still fun). Niley is off on his own little island though, none of us mere mortals can touch his DPS or gear :) Thats interesting you are going for holy priest, even after the next patch COH nerf? Just get tons of spirit and spam PoH/Nova?

I definitely see the difference gear upgrades make, I spent some time enchanting and getting gear (I had 110 badges on my shamans and hadn't spent one yet, lol) and breezed through 2 heroics today with 0 wipes and record times.

At this point I think really the issue is the next nine months, whatcha gonna do? Its a given you will get 2 pc t7 from badges or voa/os, its pretty easy getting even 2 pc t7.5 from 25 man versions. You can also run them solo through naxx (or group if lucky) and get some more, to the point where they will be decked out in epics. I wonder though how many more 5 man heroics Blizzard will release? Historically we'll see 2-3 more 10/25 man raids and maaaybe 1 5 man in this expansion cycle.

At this point really just trying different compositions may be a good use of time, gearing up for really nothing has very high diminishing returns.

Has anyone by the way tested on dummies the DPS diff between just spamming LB and doing FS/LvB/LB/CL? I'm gonna try that later today, just gotta get in my 10 arena games, do 1st boss of Kara, kill Ony, and do the mount bosses in ZG...

[Seneca]

I have to agree with Niley on the mixed group composition, I'm running something quite similar. I am currently using a paly tank, so I brought a moonkin instead of a mage (to compensate for no DK 13% +dmg), otherwise identical. I do have a 70 mage and a 73 DK that I might level and switch in to see how it goes.

Apologies for going off topic... but anyway...

I agree that a mage brings a lot of utility, ie. ports/water/crit/etc. However, I went with a paly/druid for the extra buffs (over DK/mage), without access to raid level gear I really wanted to maximise buffs that would help me clear heroics. With the (sort of recent) changes to buff stacking, I used MMO Champion's RaidComp ('http://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com/') to decide on an optimal group. Its great for figuring out new compositions. I spent quite a while just working through different combinations til I came up with the one I have now. Prot paly, Moonkin, Ele shaman x 2, Disc/Holy priest. Not quite 80 yet, I started leveling from scratch after WotlK came out, but I've completed every instance so far without problems.

[Meeo]

well just to keep this thread on right tracks, I found a ss that i think Ive posted before, thsi si from few weeks back, when my slave shammies didn't really had taht good of a gear(now they all have 2 piece t7 etc).
I did this dps test on a dummy, and with cast random macro, no heroism(You can see cd on exhaustion, but that's from my previous try on the heroic dummy)
http://www.hdimage.org/images/pdl5dcspsvhfca058y3r_eledeepzzszsz.jpg


and, Im changing my team too, its going to be Dk tank, Mage, Holy Priest, Elemental shaman x2 - started priest and mage yesterday, and they're almost 60 now. I was considering a moonkin, but I think I'll gain much more from a mage, 10% crit/water/ports/sheep/int, from moonkin i dont really get anything but motw/brez and o sh!t heal.

What Castrandom did you use for those s.s., if you can recall?

[Niley]

I still use same macro, its
/castrandom lightning bolt,lava burst
and on another button i have
/stopcasting
/cast flameshock
the simpler the better \o/

[Hachoo]

You don't use chain lightning at all? I use chain lightning on my main DPS macro because it has a higher DPS than LB and its good to take down multi mob pulls faster. Only time I don't use it is when its a mana intensive boss fight. Just curious on your opinion on this.

[Multibocks]

CL does add dps, but I don't bother on 2 of my slaves as my damn macros are too long.. lol. I haven't seen a huge difference.

[Meeo]

I still use same macro, its
/castrandom lightning bolt,lava burst
and on another button i have
/stopcasting
/cast flameshock
the simpler the better \o/

So i was able to test this macro out on Patchwerk tonight, as well as another..../castrandom Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Lava Burst, Flame Shock

With the /cr LB, LvB & /sc flame shock, i got 2297 and my gears pretty crappy on my shaman.
With the /cr lb, cl, lvb, fs i only got 2029

Again this also varies to others becuase of the difference in crit/haste/hit. So dont take my word for it, but i saw a huge difference in my dps from the 2 different spell setups, i will test it in heroics with my 5 box team to see how they do away from the raid enviorment, i still have yet to get to a town and test my dps against a dummy.

[Niley]

You don't use chain lightning at all? I use chain lightning on my main DPS macro because it has a higher DPS than LB and its good to take down multi mob pulls faster. Only time I don't use it is when its a mana intensive boss fight. Just curious on your opinion on this.

Nope, i dont use cl in my main dps spam macro, I do have it set to another button that sometimes Ill use on trash. A while ago I noticed higher deeps with just basic macro that i posted above, its a random macro, so Ill take my chances on 50/50 lvb, rather then 33%.
I dont know about others, but I do 4x healing stream, they tick for 1k, that way i still dps for trash and some bosses on my resto shaman, and if i use cl there Ill run oom, as Im close without using it.
Even when I'm raiding on my main, Ill barely use cl in my rotation, only when i need my rotation to "stick", so i don't have to wait on LvB. So while in theory its better dps, in reality I get higher dps without it.

[Kaynin]

Average heroic if I don't slack, 2200-2400 dps, depends a bit on how much mob per trash ratio is.

But tbh, I've started to slack here and there when possible for a more relaxing run. :P

[Hachoo]

I ran Gun'drak again last night (using the same macros I always use), and paid a bit more attention to my rotations and squeezed out 1620 dps or so. I think if I REALLY wanted to, I could squeeze out >2000.

On trash, I use mana spring totem so I never have to drink anything, and that means I have to waste a few seconds healing which drops by DPS (but by less than resting between every 2 pulls would do). Also, on trash pulls I ONLY use flame shock on the first mob, then I don't use any flameshock/LvB combos after that, which hurts my DPS but honestly I'd rather lose some DPS then have to focus so much getting the exact optimal combo.

On bosses I do use more optimal combos but again I have to heal a bunch - I'll have to recount on just a boss fight once to see what I'm pulling there. Honestly unless I'm having trouble with an encounter its just not worth the effort to get the rotation exactly optimal when it takes exponentially more attention/effort :)

[pinotnoir]

Chain lightning will be dropped from the rotation according to what I have been reading about the patch. It will only be used on trash that has more than 1 mob. The mana cost and damage is just not worth it I guess. Geared shaman will be doing lb spam in between lavaburst.

[Deekhay]

I tried this hybrid spec in orgrimmar dummies and in fact together with castrandom LvB LB with separate FS I get an increase in DPS of around 25% with my 4 Elemental Shaman just self buffed. I can imagine what it'll be like with raid buffs.

The most noticeable thing is, I placed 4 mana totems like I usually do and it's extremely hard to run oom... it's unbelieavable... Spammed like crazy, for about 12min (twice refreshing totems and once water shield and:

Was still at around 20% mana having done a total of 9.97k dps and 6306k total damage.

It comes basically from more shock cost reduction and not using CL I think.

[Niley]

I tried this hybrid spec in orgrimmar dummies and in fact together with castrandom LvB LB with separate FS I get an increase in DPS of around 25% with my 4 Elemental Shaman just self buffed. I can imagine what it'll be like with raid buffs.

The most noticeable thing is, I placed 4 mana totems like I usually do and it's extremely hard to run oom... it's unbelieavable... Spammed like crazy, for about 12min (twice refreshing totems and once water shield and:

Was still at around 20% mana having done a total of 9.97k dps and 6306k total damage.

It comes basically from more shock cost reduction and not using CL I think.


Correct me if Im wrong, but mana spring doesnt stack, unless its talented one+ untalented one(I tried 4 of them and only one showed in my combat log).
The problem with that spec is that if You have to move around, You only have 20 yards range, and there is very good chance that You will go out of range, also the lack of shield is meh:P I only have my main specced that, rest of the shammies are deep ele.

[Hachoo]

Welcome to 3.0. Mana spring has stacked since before WoTLK. It changed from a noticeable buff to a "pulse" like tremor totem, as did healing stream totem. So yes, mana springs stack as much as you want :) Too bad they dont get a boost from +spellpower like healing stream does or 1 mana spring would probably be enough for infinite mana (of course thats probably why they didn't do it LOL).

[Maklar]

Niley, what totems is your main using? IE, is it using Searing Totem and getting the benefit of Totem of Wrath from your slaves?

[Hachoo]

Welcome to 3.0. Mana spring has stacked since before WoTLK.

Actaully, it didn't stack Pre-Wotlk. It does now though. :)

But it only affects your group. It won't effect other groups within a raid.

So if you're raiding, it might be beneficial to spread your Shaman out a little.I'm pretty sure it started stacking in 3.0 which came out about a month before WoTLK.

[Gares]

I was just looking at that SS in the other thread. I'm still boggled by your numbers. :D
I think having a dk added a whole lot more dps to my group, Ive been having some moments when I think in my head " O sh!t" that boss died so fast, after i swapped from pally to dk tank.
Im going to try do one more of those test things soon, see how it goes with better gear and maybe heroism.

I thought about adding a DK Tank to my mix as well but I am not even sure how I would level him super fast?

Any thoughts?

I could probably tag with him and just DPS elites down for hours but I dunno if the change is worth it from a Pally.

Edit: Also with a cast sequence macro I end up getting around 1500-1800 DPS on the dummies self buffed.

I tried using /castrandom with FS, LVB, LB, CL, and it seems to either lower my DPS slightly or match what I get in cast sequence. From what I am reading we should just use /CR LB, LVB and manually apply Flame Shock. My only issue with this is there is so much going on I like only smashing 2 buttons. My DPS from shammies button and my Pally tank spam button. (I heal with my resto from my mouse). I just know I cannot be always looking to apply the Flameshock when it is coming off. Unless there is a mod that would show me while I am playing my tank (Which I don't think there is)

[puppychow]

I use pitbull and it shows all the debuffs the target has, I reapply flameshock whenever the 2-3 that are on the target drop off (every 18 secs). my 2 button is my /castrandom DPS macro on my shamans and my "tank uber macro", I use shift-2 to cast flameshock on my shamans. makes it super ez. (1 casts lhw on my pally from my resto shaman).

[Catamer]

I spent some time at the target dummy last night and I couldn't get anywhere near 3k dps.
standard flametoung and totems, no heroism
I tried these both with manually applied flame shocks
/castrandom lvb,lb
/castsequence lvb,lb,lb,lb,lb

and compared them auto applied flame shocks and chain lightnings
/castrandom lvb,lb,cl,fs

They all had similar DPS against a single boss target dummy. the first two were almost impossible to run out of mana as compared to the last one ( 76% mana compared to an 0% mana using CL )

the best I did for DPS was apx 1900, the leatherworking with the wrist buff got closer to 2000 dps.
Xenoca ('http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Galakrond&n=Xenoca')
Xenocad ('http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Galakrond&n=Xenocad')

I then ran an instance and found that using the first castrandom cost me a lot of DPS against trash mobs, i was only getting some 1300dps instead of 1600+ dps I used to get.

I can see that the mana efficient cast sequence is probably manditory against raid bosses like patchwerk however I just can't understand how you got the extra dps.

[Niley]

I did few more tests, the one below I did over 1 million damage on each shaman, my dps could had been higher but meh i forgot to re apply fs few times :P
I'm not sure what You guys are doing wrong if youre not getting similiar damage, maybe its the gearing, maybe You don't spam hard enough, or maybe its like me forgetting to re apply the flame shocks.
Or maybe its the lack of Dk tank >.>

http://www.hdimage.org/images/blopyawedrcrc7or0jx_ocrnhot010709182604.jpg

http://www.hdimage.org/images/novx0cwsfzpy03o8bj9_ocrnhot010709182915.jpg

[mmcookies]

do you guys take into account stopping for heals on 4x elemental shamans?
or do you all have 1 resto shaman to spam heals now?

i was testing my shamans on heroic bosses during my regular runs today, and i hardly went over 1600 dps

[Niley]

maybe some of You guys could post Your cast sequence macros, and i could try them out on my team?

[Hachoo]

Yeah I think thats why it seems a bit low for us, I haven't tested on a dummy, just in actual heroics, and I see around 1600 dps but all my shamans stop to heal (the tank and themselves occasionally).

The real math is, what does more total DPS...

4x ele shamans @ 1600DPS each

or 3x ele shamans at ~2000 DPS each + 1 resto shaman at 0 DPS

The 2000 isn't an actual number...guess I'd have to run some tests on a boss dummy and see what my DPS came up as to see which would actually be better.

[Hachoo]

Niley, try this:

cast flameshock manually on a boss dummy
cast LvB manually on that dummy

then spam the following macro:

/castrandom Lightning Bolt,Chain Lightning,Lava Burst

Do that for 60 seconds, don't refresh flameshock at all. Just curious what that does for your DPS, because thats basically what I use on bosses for my shamans. (I use purge in the castrandom also but I guess that won't do anything on a dummy).

[Stealthy]

I did few more tests, the one below I did over 1 million damage on each shaman, my dps could had been higher but meh i forgot to re apply fs few times :P
I'm not sure what You guys are doing wrong if youre not getting similiar damage, maybe its the gearing, maybe You don't spam hard enough, or maybe its like me forgetting to re apply the flame shocks.
Or maybe its the lack of Dk tank >.>

http://www.hdimage.org/images/blopyawedrcrc7or0jx_ocrnhot010709182604.jpg

http://www.hdimage.org/images/novx0cwsfzpy03o8bj9_ocrnhot010709182915.jpg

Hiya Niley,

Would you be about to do some DPS tests with your Sham Phoin? Also would you be able to do tests with Phoin not in group with your DK?

I'm hoping this will show what kind of DPS shams can achieve on thier own with baseline gear, and a pure Ele spec. Phein's gear and spec are a bit too different to base an effective comparison on...

Thanks!
Stealthy

[Niley]

Niley, try this:

cast flameshock manually on a boss dummy
cast LvB manually on that dummy

then spam the following macro:

/castrandom Lightning Bolt,Chain Lightning,Lava Burst

Do that for 60 seconds, don't refresh flameshock at all. Just curious what that does for your DPS, because thats basically what I use on bosses for my shamans. (I use purge in the castrandom also but I guess that won't do anything on a dummy).

You do realize how much dps You're losing this way? I can tell Your right now, my shamans will be lower by 600-900ish without re applying flame shock.



Hiya Niley,

Would you be about to do some DPS tests with your Sham Phoin? Also would you be able to do tests with Phoin not in group with your DK?

I'm hoping this will show what kind of DPS shams can achieve on thier own with baseline gear, and a pure Ele spec. Phein's gear and spec are a bit too different to base an effective comparison on...

Thanks!
Stealthy

We're not looking for single shaman dps, we are trying to figure out if cast sequence is better then cast random, and in my case for now it seem like cast random is the way to go. There is plenty of solo shaman data around ;)

[Hachoo]

I understand it will be worse, I'm just curious by how much. I am too lazy to reapply FS generally because I don't actually need it to take down any bosses. Also my casts are so far off by the time I'm ready to reapply I have to lose some DPS to spam FS while I wait for all my shamans to finish their current cast. This usually stops 2+ shamans from casting for a good 1.5s completely.

[TheBigBB]

What a few shaman add to a group in terms of utility makes up for their lower damage by a lot. Heroism and totems are still the most powerful combination of buffs of any class. Don't be too down on the shaman. The only thing I continue to harp on with the shaman class is not to play them exclusively if you want to do anything good in PVE.

[Hachoo]

Oh I'm still all about the shaman class, I love them (for multiboxing - solo play its the worst/most boring class IMO). No plans to get rid of them no matter what the DPS is. I'm just curious what things I could do to make my DPS higher - obviously refreshing FS or adding it to my castrandom rotation is probably good. Might take CL out of my castrandom just to increase my mana efficiency as well.

Also when I logged out last I bought my 4 shaman that epic badge totem that increases haste sometimes when using LB - I think that will increase my DPS quite a bit since LB is like 65% of my damage right now.

[Catamer]

I believe phein has almost 5% more haste than xenoca.
xenoca has 9.67% cast increase while phein has a whopping 14.39% spell cast increase.

we both have relatively the same amount of crit and spell dmg, talents fairly similar but not exactly the same so I can only assume it's the haste that's killing my DPS numbers.

[Niley]

I believe phein has almost 5% more haste than xenoca.
xenoca has 9.67% cast increase while phein has a whopping 14.39% spell cast increase.

we both have relatively the same amount of crit and spell dmg, talents fairly similar but not exactly the same so I can only assume it's the haste that's killing my DPS numbers.

well, since our highest damaging spell already has 100% crit, and usually fire is about 25-40% of our rotation, crit is a bit behind, defiantly not the stat that You would want to gear for. Basically, right now, it goes like this

Hit
Spell Power
Haste
Crit
Other stats

Never gem or enchant for crit,mp5 or int. Its useless for shamans(well not uselless per se, but not even close to be as good to other stats as elemental).

[Niley]

I believe phein has almost 5% more haste than xenoca.
xenoca has 9.67% cast increase while phein has a whopping 14.39% spell cast increase.

we both have relatively the same amount of crit and spell dmg, talents fairly similar but not exactly the same so I can only assume it's the haste that's killing my DPS numbers.

well, since our highest damaging spell already has 100% crit, and usually tfire is about 25-40% of our rotation, crit is a bit behind, defiantly not the stat that You would want to gear for. Basically, right now, it goes like this

Hit
Spell Power
Haste
Crit
Other stats

Never gem or enchant for crit,mp5 or int. Its useless for shamans(well not uselless per se, but not even close to be as good to other stats as elemental).

What glyphs are you using?

elemental shamans:
Glyph of lava
Glyph of flame shock
Glyph of Flametongue weapon(will be replaced by lighting bolt glyph, once 3.0.8 comes around)

Resto shaman:
Glyph of Chain Heal
Glyph of Water Mastery
Glyph of Lesser Healing Wave

[emesis]

Also when I logged out last I bought my 4 shaman that epic badge totem that increases haste sometimes when using LB - I think that will increase my DPS quite a bit since LB is like 65% of my damage right now.

Actually, bad news there.

Totem of the Elemental Plane appears to have a proc per minute internal limiter (approx once per 45 seconds), which actually makes it WORSE for DPS than the Level 70 badge reward equivalent Skycall Totem. The Skycall totem does not have a limiter and I confirmed on my Shammies this morning that it's proc stays up well over half the time for me. The Skycall is 100 haste but can be expected to be up 50 to nearly 100% of the time (based on your underlying haste) for an average of 50-100 haste. Totem of the Elemental Plane has a 196 haste proc effect. If the Totem of the Elemental Plane can only proc once per 45 seconds, but proces immediately, and lasts for 10 seconds, thats (10/45) * 196 = 44 haste (with no further scaling as your haste goes up).

This is just an awful totem if the ppm limit stuff is true and a horrible shaft by Blizz. For multiboxers not likely to go to 25 man Naxx, there are few options. I went ahead and farmed the Skycall Totem last night on my team as it looks to be the best easily available upgrade for my team (over my Totem of the Void).

See the comments on Wowhead: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40708

[Hachoo]

I didn't have the 70 badge item anyway, I just had the lavaburst totem from venture bay which wasn't that great so I think this lightning totem is still better than that one, and was only 15 badges anyway. For boss fights I think it will be more dps.

[emesis]

This is just an awful totem if the ppm limit stuff is true and a horrible shaft by Blizz. For multiboxers not likely to go to 25 man Naxx, there are few options. I went ahead and farmed the Skycall Totem last night on my team as it looks to be the best easily available upgrade for my team (over my Totem of the Void).

If this is true - it will be addressed.

Blizzard has gone to great lengths in the past to make sure max level players don't have to go back to 10+ levels ago to get "required" gear.

Example A: Hand of Justice trinket. Originally a flat 2% chance to get an extra swing on attack. _every_ warrior and rogue had this trinket. Later change to "chance on hit" to proc, which meant 2% at 60, 0.5% at 70.

I agree that it may be addressed at some point. However, as you basically point out, it may very well be handled by NERFING the Skycall Totem by placing a PPM limit on the older totem, rather than removing the PPM limit on the level 80 version. At that point, it would be better to have Totem of the Elemental Plane rather than Skycall.

Totem of Hex is still better than either, but I'm not likely to see the inside of 25 man Naxx.

[puppychow]

You should xfer servers if you can't find a naxx pug -- my pally is almost in full 25 man naxx epics from naxx pugs, and all my shamans have been in at least 2 of the wings (my resto has cleared it twice now). There are 4-5 naxx25 pugs nightly on Blackrock. There are even now a few Eye of Eternity pugs going on, both 10 and 25 man. My pally did a 1-drake Obsidium Sanctum pug kill yesterday, was crazy!

Also Niley is doing DPS on all his shamans and his DK when counting those damage meters I believe, which means he gets a ton of elemental oath procs and trinket procs (I have the badge and OS25 trinket, they can proc like crazy). I think the people who are posting about the 1500dps (like me) are just measuring a single shaman with no trinkets (or none with procs) and just totem of wrath (and maybe manaspring) down.

[Meeo]

Ill hopefully have some screenshots of my dmg tests with my shamans tonight after the raid, but i have been using a castrandom with Lvb/FS/LB/CL due to my haste/hit numbers i use this macro more effectively, i've tried dropping out Chain Lightning to loose some dps, so i decided to keep it in, based.

Niley: can you do a Test on the 83 boss dummy? if possible, the 80 test dummy is weaker, so its like going after trash, i just want to compare your numbers to my number to see how there scaling, as you have much more hit and haste then my guys but haste seems to be playing a bit more especially using a cast random since you are casting more often then not.

[Niley]

Ill hopefully have some screenshots of my dmg tests with my shamans tonight after the raid, but i have been using a castrandom with Lvb/FS/LB/CL due to my haste/hit numbers i use this macro more effectively, i've tried dropping out Chain Lightning to loose some dps, so i decided to keep it in, based.

Niley: can you do a Test on the 83 boss dummy? if possible, the 80 test dummy is weaker, so its like going after trash, i just want to compare your numbers to my number to see how there scaling, as you have much more hit and haste then my guys but haste seems to be playing a bit more especially using a cast random since you are casting more often then not.

Forgot about this topic :P
why test on boss dummy? that requires 262 hit with sp or moonkin, that's for raiding toons to test, all I need to hit lvl 82 heroic boss is 3% hit, and that's what i gear my shamans for, if I'm missing 10% hit(3% talents, 1% aura and 3% from gear), my dps will obviously be very gimped. Level 80 dummy will represent Your usual boss, its not weaker, it just requires less spell hit.