Mouse Broadcasting - Delays violate TOS?

[zanthor]

In the spirit of full disclosure it occured to me today that KeyClone includes programatic delays to facilitate mouse broadcasting.

I'll leave it up to your interpretation...

GM Malkorix posted:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=8765637958&pageNo=1&sid=1#8



Yup, keyclone is fine.

Just make absolutely certain that you're not making more than one keypress (for the purposes of the word 'keypress' this includes a single key press AND release with no delays), or including delays between key-presses with each action.

Essentially, if you could legally create the command as a functional macro within the default user interface, then it should be okay.

Emphasis mine.

[keyclone]

the delays are from the OS, and not of my doing... believe me. i'd rather them not be there (hoping to have the delay removed soon). keep in mind, the delays that are objected to by Blizzard would be programmable delays. this means, delays the user can specify... like 'delay 5' meaning for a script to delay 5 seconds before doing the following action (like the G15 keyboard). this is absolutely not possible with keyclone.

meanwhile, since you bring up delays and in the spirit of full
disclosure, both hotkeynet and innerspace allow scriptable delays
configured by the user (maybe AHK as well, but i don't remember).

they also allow you to trigger more then one key per key hit...

conditionals...

loops (innerspace)...

and a whole host of other tools the user would need in order to make an automated bot engine. (most aggress being innerspace...)

this would be most definitely illegal.



... i didn't open this can o' worms... other mods can delete the thread if they want...

[algol]

hoping to have the delay removed soon

Very good to hear. Good luck finding a way to speed it up.


As to delays...any program is going to take time to execute. If it happens to take long enough that the computer has time to also adjust to the mouse being repositioned...well, there you go. Essentially one needs to avoid abusing it by doing something like not sending a keypress until 1 GCD after the last, or...I dunno, stuff like that. They don't mean to discourage multiboxing, just botting...and sometimes stuff that would help us helps them more, thus is taboo. Giving the mouse 1ms or whatever to adjust is probably okay, but I would still keep it to a bare minimum if you were using something like an HKN script.

I guess as a rule of thumb, if the delay is less than typical client-server network latency, you're probably safe(ish). But I hardly set policy for Blizzard, I'm just making inferences of what I naively think is reasonable. They could disagree, with or without good reason.

[olipcs]

meanwhile, since you bring up delays and in the spirit of full
disclosure, both hotkeynet and innerspace allow scriptable delays
configured by the user (maybe AHK as well, but i don't remember).

they also allow you to trigger more then one key per key hit...

conditionals...

loops (innerspace)...

and a whole host of other tools the user would need in order to make an automated bot engine. (most aggress being innerspace...)

this would be most definitely illegal.

... i didn't open this can o' worms... other mods can delete the thread if they want...
..jep, they do, and this is mainly because they are not purely developed for wow nor multiboxing at all!
And personaly i'm absolutly fine with it, because in the end its always the user who decides which software he uses, with what features...
..and as everybody here can research what is ok with the ToS and what not, and for HotKeyNet there is also a big text about what to use and how to be in the terms of wow ('http://hotkeynet.com/wow/wow-rules.html') i'm absolutly am fine with using it.

For me its the following tradeoff: I like using HKN because of the controll it gives to me, what to send to whom with what trigger, and as I'm the one in control, I'm also the one responsible for my actions...

Honestly I don't know why you come up with the hole topic again and again?

- Don't understand me wrong, I think you have develeoped a realy great product for the mainstream-multiboxer and you have done quite a lot for the community.
I even have two active keyclone licences and loved it at first.
But then Deceased/Pocalypse shared their thoughts about the ftl-setup, which heavily relies on hotstrings/keymaps.
And there for me the point started where keyclone lost its 'glory' a bit, because defining keymaps/hotstring in keyclone is not realy intuitive and I couldn't do everythink i wanted.
(like differentiate between ingoing and outgoing hotstrings, for example).

Another big point of the hole keymapping thing was, that as I tried to give a lot of support for new users of the ftl, i had to try to 'debug' their keymaps/hotstrings, which i found quite hard in keyclone.

-The turning point for me was, when Anemo posted a first version of the ftl using hotkeynet.
I'll looked at the script and imidiatly loved it.
Mainly because, as i'm a programmer myself, i instinctly saw the possibilities i could do with such scripts, and almost instinctly i felt, like i'm the one who is in control.
Another big plus for me was, that the 'API' HKN uses is very well documented, and there was a lot of samples/infos on its own forum, so that the transition-phase was quite short (under an hour), and i had all the features i used in keyclone running in hotkeynet.

..jeah, well, this was my keyclone/hkn story...

-i know i derailed the thread a bit (sorry!) but i just wanted to say, that for some users there are good reasons to use one or the other...

Basicly meaning:
You want a simple to setup keybroadcaster => use keyclone
You want a hotkey/keymap-specalist, with beeing in 'controll' through scripts => use hotkeynet
You want real fast pip and scripting => use IS

[stealthy45]

I'm all for open discussion and disclosure, but if it becomes X vs Y I'm nuking this thread from orbit.
Killing it with fire, as it were?

Keyclone - yes, InnerSpace has scripting capabilities, i.e. conditional loops, delays, etc. Whether or not a user makes use of that in a way that would break the ToS is up to them. The presence of the capability to do something does not mean people will take advantage of it.
We've had x64 CPUs for how many years before the mainstream finally began shifting towards 64-bit OSes?

How long are these "os" delays in Keyclone?

[pengwynman]

How long are these "os" delays in Keyclone?when i was trying out mouse passing, it would take about 3-5 seconds total for the mouse to click on every window.

[RobinGBrown]

In the spirit of full disclosure it occured to me today that KeyClone includes programatic delays to facilitate mouse broadcasting.

I'll leave it up to your interpretation...


So the guy who has been promoting a rival product to Keyclone tries to blow smoke by making up a story about the legality of it...

This is a bullshit post to try and draw attention to the other product.

Also you should take care to define your terms - a 'programatic delay' is a delay that you can program in, keyclone has no such delays - and if you think there is one then please show me how to do it.

As far as I know the rival product has plenty of ability to program in keystrokes and all manner of naughtiness that could get you banned

[elsegundo]

so GM guy says Keyclone is fine.


OK! :thumbsup:

[zanthor]

So the guy who has been promoting a rival product to Keyclone tries to blow smoke by making up a story about the legality of it...

This is a bullshit post to try and draw attention to the other productI've been a solid supporter and promoter of most software solutions for multiboxing discussed here. I've made it a point to understand their strengths, weaknesses, abilities, and to communicate to other users what those are. I've also made it a point to have more than a passing knowledge of hardware solutions and the abilities they offer. I'm passionate about my hobby, I'm knowledgable, and I'm open minded about potential solutions.

Also you should take care to define your terms - a 'programatic delay' is a delay that you can program in, keyclone has no such delays - and if you think there is one then please show me how to do it.You can call a frog a duck, but when you toss him off the top of a tall building, he's still going to become a gooyey red spot on the concrete below. Blizzard doesn't care if the delay is something you control, or something someone else controls, if you run an application that has a delay in it, you are violating the TOS and risking banning. The nature of the delay on the clicks KeyClone broadcasts does not seem to be a windows issue to me - it seems to be a byproduct of a work around that KeyClone had to impliment to make mouse broadcasting work. The intention is not to harm the user or delay anything, but the general assumption new users have is that KeyClone is 100% OK because blizzard stated that a VERY early VERY primative version of KeyClone was legitimate.
As far as I know the rival product has plenty of ability to program in keystrokes and all manner of naughtiness that could get you bannedSeveral other products have this ability, thats been established, no ones arguing with this fact.

so GM guy says Keyclone is fine.


OK! :thumbsup:Read the link, he's saying that KeyClones fine, he's saying pauses are not, KeyClone pauses to broadcast mice clicks, they happen over a spread of about 2-3 seconds for 5 clients... I'm not saying it WILL get you banned, but I'm saying it SHOULD be something people are aware of. Especially since the feature in it's current state is now getting a lot of press from other users. Assuming Rob gets the pause removed, then all is back to normal and KeyClone regains it's status as the least likely to let something naughty happen.

[pengwynman]

personally, i find keyclone's click passer to be waay too slow to use during combat, it's actually much faster for me to just quickly click in each window than wait for the cursor to make its rounds.
i think the main question here was is there any sort of delay programmed in, which i believe has been answered with a firm No. it's just slow :P

[zanthor]

i think the main question here was is there any sort of delay programmed in, which i believe has been answered with a firm No. it's just slowThe thing is I know a little bit about programming, I'm not a Win32API expert by any means, but from what I see, the code runs when a click event fires, moves the mouse to the next client, sets focus, clicks, moves mouse to the next client, sets focus, clicks, repeats as necessary... there is timing involved to make this function the way it does. AutoHotKey functions quite similarly in that it has a pause coded in, he tells you about this in the instructions of how to set it up and warns that this may be violating the TOS of WoW, it's measured in MS and needs tuned by machine to make mouse replication work...

[pengwynman]

The thing is I know a little bit about programming, I'm not a Win32API expert by any means, but from what I see, the code runs when a click event fires, moves the mouse to the next client, sets focus, clicks, moves mouse to the next client, sets focus, clicks, repeats as necessary... there is timing involved to make this function the way it does. AutoHotKey functions quite similarly in that it has a pause coded in, he tells you about this in the instructions of how to set it up and warns that this may be violating the TOS of WoW, it's measured in MS and needs tuned by machine to make mouse replication work...but still.... is there a delay actually programmed into keyclone, or is the delay caused by the program "waiting" for the OS? I think that as long as the delay isn't configurable and the program isn't reading anything from wow memory, blizz won't have a problem with it.

[stealthy45]

As far as I know the rival product has plenty of ability to program in keystrokes and all manner of naughtiness that could get you banned
My, that's a big stick you're beating a very dead horse with.


but still.... is there a delay actually programmed into keyclone, or is the delay caused by the program "waiting" for the OS? I think that as long as the delay isn't configurable and the program isn't reading anything from wow memory, blizz won't have a problem with it.
While I agree that it probably isn't programmed in and therefore wouldn't be against the ToS, a delay of 3-5 seconds for an action that for all rights and means should be instantaneous is the mark of flawed code.

[elsegundo]

so GM guy says Keyclone is fine.


OK! :thumbsup:Read the link, he's saying that KeyClones fine, he's saying pauses are not, KeyClone pauses to broadcast mice clicks, they happen over a spread of about 2-3 seconds for 5 clients... I'm not saying it WILL get you banned, but I'm saying it SHOULD be something people are aware of. Especially since the feature in it's current state is now getting a lot of press from other users. Assuming Rob gets the pause removed, then all is back to normal and KeyClone regains it's status as the least likely to let something naughty happen.yes i know. indeed it may be a problem... then agian, it may not. if i find keyclone working suspiciously, then of course i will stop using it. but i dont think this is something to really worry about.

[zanthor]

This is the spirit in which I posted this thread, to discus and identify the cause of the delay, I'm still curious as to the mechanic that is causing it... if indeed it's waiting on OS events and 100% outside the control of the app then I'd equate that very much to any delay you see between clients as the keystroke data is transmitted to each client, and I'd say it's fine, just seeing the delay on KeyClone is so much larger than any other mouse broadcaster I've tested makes me think that there are some delays coded, of course waiting for events to fire would be more efficient and could be the answer to how it's done.

[elsegundo]

using anything mouse-related with keyclone has caused me a lot of problems in the past, so i tend to shy away from the use of my mouse with keyclone. there are delays and some bugs when switching the mouse between screens while running, button clicks down registers while sometimes clicks up do not. etc etc... which leads me to not use any mouse feature in keyclone. for key broadcasting and pip, its awesome. im sure we will see many more updates and improvements to the program as time goes by. but even with these issues i have with keyclone, i still do not have any suspicion that keyclone is doing anything illegal unless i alter it in some way. much like how my mouse program can map some keyboard keys and my n52 program maps some of my keyboard keys-- they all have the ability to delay keystrokes, thus able to automate certain events, but i do not use it when playing WoW.

[stealthy45]

much like how my mouse program can map some keyboard keys and my n52 program maps some of my keyboard keys-- they all have the ability to delay keystrokes, thus able to automate certain events, but i do not use it when playing WoW.
Sometimes I wish people would pull their heads out of their asses long enough to think about that.

I am also curious to the cause of the absurd delays in keyclone.

[keyclone]

Blizzard's problem is with any user programmable delays and out-of-game macros.

why? the answer is obvious. because those are the key components of bot engines, like WoWGlider/ISXWarden/IS

your effort to deflect attention away from blatantly illegal tools is amusing. ok, there is a delay that happens as keyclone waits for the win32 api to return from a call. this is nothing new and the delay has been mentioned by users before. this is not user programmable. therefore, not against the TOS.

BUT, AHK, HKN, and IS all provide the user with programmable delays, looping, conditionals, and out-of-game macro capability (one key producing numerous key hits per wow). these capabilities are obviously illegal.

don't think so? try mentioning it on the wow forums... see how long before the blues pull the thread. any mention of innerspace (especially if you give link to it) will get nuked in a flash. why? maybe because innerspace was at the heart of the ban waves that went through the wow community. did you forget those? do you think noobies know this when they read these forums looking for multi-boxing solutions? no. they believe everything they find here is as legal as it can be... minimal risk.

[stealthy45]

Keyclone - few things.
1) Drop the flaming. You're only making yourself look bad.

2) What Win32 call?

3)
BUT, AHK, HKN, and IS all provide the user with programmable delays, looping, conditionals, and out-of-game macro capability (one key producing numerous key hits per wow). these capabilities are obviously illegal.

See here:





http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/../forum/icon/quoteS.png Quoted

much like how my mouse program can map some keyboard keys and my n52 program maps some of my keyboard keys-- they all have the ability to delay keystrokes, thus able to automate certain events, but i do not use it when playing WoW. Sometimes I wish people would pull their heads out of their *expletive* long enough to think about that.

Again, very big stick, very dead horse. In the end it is up to the end user to take advantage of any illicit capabilities of anything, be it InnerSpace, HKN, or even the API calls that make said illicit actions possible.

You're forgetting the Logitech G15 keyboard that also provide said capabilities that is to the best of my knowledge completely Blizzard-safe, so long as you don't use the ToS-breaking capabilities it can provide for. I do not understand why you refuse to consider this.

Edit:

why? the answer is obvious. because those are the key components of bot engines, like WoWGlider/ISXWarden/IS
I wish you had an idea about what you're talking about. How about leaving ToS-violating things out of this discussion, i.e. the first two things you referred to?
Edit 2: Typo fixes

[Freddie]

BUT, AHK, HKN, and IS all provide the user with programmable delays, looping, conditionals, and out-of-game macro capability (one key producing numerous key hits per wow).
With regard to HotkeyNet this isn't entirely right. It has no loops and it can only test for four specific non-game conditions (e.g. "is a certain window in the foreground") that cannot, so far as I know, be used to break Blizzard's rules. The other two items are correct.


these capabilities are obviously illegal.
As I tell HotkeyNet's users on the program's website, "Cars are legal but drunk driving is not. In the same way, this program is legal according to Blizzard's rules but certain kinds of hotkeys are not. It's up to you to use the program wisely just like it's up to you to drive safely."

Here's the rest of the advice. It contains full disclosure about every command in HotkeyNet that can potentially break Blizzard's rules:

HotkeyNet and WoW: Don't Get Busted ('http://hotkeynet.com/wow/wow-rules.html')

[stealthy45]

As I tell HotkeyNet's users on the program's website, "Cars are legal but drunk driving is not. In the same way, this program is legal according to Blizzard's rules but certain kinds of hotkeys are not. It's up to you to use the program wisely just like it's up to you to drive safely."

Thank you for the excellent comment. It's a shame this topic was derailed - perhaps it can be put back on track.

[Freddie]

Thanks. :) I've rewritten that paragraph many times since HotkeyNet went into public beta, trying to make it as clear as possible. For some reason this issue generates a lot more fire than light.

From the way some people get mad about this, you'd think the developers are deliberately trying to fool their users into breaking rules unknowlingly so they get banned. I don't think anyone wants that.

[stealthy45]

For some reason this issue generates a lot more fire than light.
Agreed.

[Tasty]

I'm just waiting for a hater on the blizzard forums to stroll in here and see us arguing with each other about whether what we're doing is legal or not. Can't wait for THAT can'o'worms to open :P

[stealthy45]

I'm just waiting for a hater on the blizzard forums to stroll in here and see us arguing with each other about whether what we're doing is legal or not. Can't wait for THAT can'o'worms to open :P
Dear god no, it's bad enough here :s

[eqjoe]

Thanks. :) I've rewritten that paragraph many times since HotkeyNet went into public beta, trying to make it as clear as possible. For some reason this issue generates a lot more fire than light.

From the way some people get mad about this, you'd think the developers are deliberately trying to fool their users into breaking rules unknowlingly so they get banned. I don't think anyone wants that.


I think that some of the methods used by devs require delays. Some of these delays are not understood by users and I hope that is the reason for this thread... to discuss the how/why/what and how that affects users. If a sending agent requires a response/event/trigger from a receiving agent, a delay is inevitable. I don't think it is important to know if that delay is a result of some standard protocol or if it is programmatic. (maybe I am wrong here... just MHO).

Freddy, that paragraph can not be more clear....

-j

[Freddie]

I think that some of the methods used by devs require delays. Some of these delays are not understood by users and I hope that is the reason for this thread... to discuss the how/why/what and how that affects users.
I think that's a very useful topic. I wish people could discuss it in good faith, in a respectful way, without getting mad.


If a sending agent requires a response/event/trigger from a receiving agent, a delay is inevitable.
I think it's possible to broadcast mouse clicks to multiple windows on a single PC without delays. From what I've read here, I would guess that InnerSpace and Skarlot's programs do this although I haven't tried them. My own program inserts delays between mouse clicks although from what I've read here they are shorter than Keyclones -- on a typical PC they are 16 ms (about one LCD frame) per window. Some of my users tell me they adjust these delays as high as about 80 ms and at that length (about five frames) they are pretty noticeable, especially with many windows on a single PC.

I can tell you why I chose to add delays in my program instead of using a faster technique. It's because I can think of only one way to do it faster (by hooking WoW's calls to the operating system) and I'm afraid this would conflict with a different rule. Therefore inserting a short delay seemed like the more conservative approach.

Also -- and I suppose this is really the main issue -- I don't think this type of delay violates any rule. Many people seem to take it for granted that Blizzard has a rule against any and all delays in any and all contexts, but I don't think this is right. I think Blizzard is concerned about delays in cases where a delay separates two actions in a single window (or two actions in separate windows where one depends on the other) that are triggered by a single user input. (Of course that kind of hotkey is illegal even without a delay.) But that's not the case here. The type of delay we're discussing here simply causes lag in an otherwise-legal hotkey. Why would that bother Blizzard? It causes no player advantage. It's purely a disadvantage.

Let me emphasize that I'm not sure I'm right -- in fact, I think Blizzard's rules are ambiguous and therefore nobody can be sure they are right -- but this was the reasoning I followed.

Let me also emphasize that I am not accusing other developers who made a different choice of doing anything wrong. As I said a moment ago, I think Blizzard's rules are not clearly stated, and I don't think anyone can be sure what the rules are with regard to these things.

All that a developer can do, imho, is try as hard as possible to give people options that can be used legally and then fully disclose the inner workings of the program so users can make their own decisions. That's what I've tried to do.


I don't think it is important to know if that delay is a result of some standard protocol or if it is programmatic. (maybe I am wrong here... just MHO).
I agree with you. This rule (if it really exists) applies to the function of the program not its implementation.

If Blizzard has a rule against third-party programs that cause delays of this sort, then it makes no difference whether the program is causing the delay by waiting for a call to return or because it's putting itself to sleep for a certain number of milliseconds. The third party program's function -- its action as seen by WoW's client -- is the same in either case.


Freddy, that paragraph can not be more clear....
Heh, thanks. I wasn't kidding -- i must have rewritten that silly little thing 20 times during the eleven months since HotkeyNet's beta started.

[Lax]

Blizzard's problem is with any user programmable delays and out-of-game macros.

why? the answer is obvious. because those are the key components of bot engines, like WoWGlider/ISXWarden/IS

your effort to deflect attention away from blatantly illegal tools is amusing. ok, there is a delay that happens as keyclone waits for the win32 api to return from a call. this is nothing new and the delay has been mentioned by users before. this is not user programmable. therefore, not against the TOS.

BUT, AHK, HKN, and IS all provide the user with programmable delays, looping, conditionals, and out-of-game macro capability (one key producing numerous key hits per wow). these capabilities are obviously illegal.

don't think so? try mentioning it on the wow forums... see how long before the blues pull the thread. any mention of innerspace (especially if you give link to it) will get nuked in a flash. why? maybe because innerspace was at the heart of the ban waves that went through the wow community. did you forget those? do you think noobies know this when they read these forums looking for multi-boxing solutions? no. they believe everything they find here is as legal as it can be... minimal risk.1. Inner Space is not a "bot engine". That bots "could be created for it" is a function of being an open platform. Inner Space is as much a "bot engine" as Windows is, or Windows Scripting Host. There are a multitude of uses for platforms, including the ability to create programs like yours, the ability to create in-game chat programs like X-Fire, the ability to create in-game interfaces for web browsers, Ventrilo and Teamspeak, and so on.
2. ISXWarden is not a "bot engine" -- it is an extension for Inner Space that would have (if it was still available) hidden certain things from Warden.
3. Who are you to say what Blizzard's problem is? Last I checked you don't speak for them. Is there a post somewhere that says "Keyclone's DELAYED CLICKS OF THE MOUSE are okay because they're not user programmable"?
4. How was Inner Space "at the heart of the ban waves that went through the wow community"? There were indeed a few ban waves over the years that hit some users of Inner Space, but that's because those people were cheating using ISXWarden and ISXWoW. Blizzard can tell the difference between simply using Inner Space, and using ISXWarden+ISXWoW (and again, ISXWarden is not available, and ISXWoW apparently isnt either). Wouldn't anyone besides you insist that the software "at the heart of the ban waves" was Glider?
5. The capabilities of my Logitech G15 are just as "illegal" as the capabilities of the software you're still whining about. As with any solution, it is up to the user to use it properly. Unfortunately some products, such as yours, do not offer the user any such choice -- if the forced delay between each click in keyclone is deemed illicit, your users have no recourse but to stop using the click feature.
6. Much like Freddie's argument about your complaint about "conditionals", Inner Space does not provide the tools to base those conditions on game data. This also has many meanings and different implementations. For example, Keyclone has "conditionals" to implement keymaps. Depending on conditions (i.e. which window), a different key is sent.
7. Poor choice of words: Keyclone has the ability for one key producing numerous key hits per wow. In fact it's standard practice, for FTL setups, etc.
8. What you're suggesting to the world is that any software that is programmable or has any open source portion, is against the Terms of Service to use with WoW by nature of being open, regardless of whether or not it requires additional software to actually do anything illicit. Is that right? In other words, by your argument, you should be banned because to you Keyclone is open source, and you have the capability to use delays, loops, and conditionals, and "these capabilities are obviously illegal".

I think there is obviously more to it than you are willing to admit, and it's a disservice to the readers of these forums to suggest otherwise.

[stealthy45]

Edited by Svpernova09.


No need for these type of comments. As long as this thread stays about intelligent discussion and no name calling or any other mud slinging, the thread will remain open.

[olipcs]

In before keyclone locks the thread and says something pseudo-witty. realy not neccessary, please keep on topic.
I personaly think its quite interresting to get the opinions/reasons from every actual programmer of an multiboxing software..

..and honestly I don't realy know why this threads must allways end in a big mud-slinging contest between Rob and Lax, with Freddie being the only one who give profound reasoning explaining exactly what he does and why, without dissing others...

Guys over what are you fighting ?
- Customers?
- I honestly don't thing a mud sling contest will help you for this!
-Take me for an example:
I have bought both keyclone (even 2 times) and IS, and used HKN.
-They all have their differences, their strength and their weaknesses.
What program did I end up with?
- The program which suited my personal playstyle and needs most! - So in the end its all about personal needs and finding the right program for you..

...maybe its realy time for a quite neutral in depth review of the three programms, with all their strength, weaknesses and possibilities, to give the enduser a better understanding...

[Lax]

..and honestly I don't realy know why this threads must allways end in a big mud-slinging contest between Rob and Lax, with Freddie being the only one who give profound reasoning explaining exactly what he does and why, without dissing others...
I've already given my reasoning and explanations in other threads without attacking any other software. Rob feels the need to attack me every time he posts, so I am put on the defensive.

[stealthy45]

..and honestly I don't realy know why this threads must allways end in a big mud-slinging contest between Rob and Lax, with Freddie being the only one who give profound reasoning explaining exactly what he does and why, without dissing others...
Like Lax just said, keyclone is constantly on the offensive against IS. The part that irks me about it is how much he is confusing IS with other things.

Regardless of who actually locks the thread, it takes a lamer mod to post in a locked thread just to get the last say.

[olipcs]

sry Lax perhpas i shouldn't have said the above, don't wanted to insult anyone.

I was just writing how my personal view of this threads are.
I know a simple:

'please keep on topic, discuss constructive and be polite to each other'

..would be better :(
Perhaps I better keep my thought to myself and go back helping people with a ftl-setup, or whatever..

[stealthy45]

'please keep on topic, discuss constructive and be polite to each other'
This would be excellent.

[zanthor]

Perhaps I better keep my thought to myself and go back helping people with a ftl-setup, or whatever.. Negative ghost rider, the pattern is full.

You are definitely a solid contributor to any conversation i've seen you post in. All of us pick words that sometimes come off wrong, it's a hazard of the intardwebs.

[Svpernova09]

..and honestly I don't realy know why this threads must allways end in a big mud-slinging contest between Rob and Lax, with Freddie being the only one who give profound reasoning explaining exactly what he does and why, without dissing others...
Like Lax just said, keyclone is constantly on the offensive against IS. The part that irks me about it is how much he is confusing IS with other things.

Regardless of who actually locks the thread, it takes a lamer mod to post in a locked thread just to get the last say.I'll keep unlocking this (if it indeed gets locked) until Ellay tells me to stop. But stop derailing the thread please. If you have an issue with a person, take it to PMs, the general population probably doesn't care.

[stealthy45]

Sure thing, Supernova.
I'm still waiting on Keyclone's reply to what he's waiting on Os-wise

[pengwynman]

Sure thing, Supernova.
I'm still waiting on Keyclone's reply to what he's waiting on Os-wisesame here. well, i don't really care what he's waiting on, but i would like a release with faster click-passing. 8)
everybody keeps asking what super advanced method i use for deploying all 15 of my trees, and all i can say is "i click 5 times"

[Svpernova09]

Sure thing, Supernova.
I'm still waiting on Keyclone's reply to what he's waiting on Os-wiseUnderstandable. I'd be interested in more info as well, but I don't even use the mouse features in keyclone. I've always been curious about under the hood stuff. I don't know that keyclone HAS to reply though, no more than Bill Gates should reply about BSOD crashes or why it takes so long for windows to show up, etc etc.

[stealthy45]

I don't know that keyclone HAS to reply though, no more than Bill Gates should reply about BSOD crashes or why it takes so long for windows to show up, etc etc.
This is true, but perhaps there is a better method of doing what he is doing, one that would not result in such delays?
In the end it is indeed up to Rob on whether or not he says anything about his code, but I don't know why he'd be upset about disclosing what win32 call he's waiting on.

[balistic]

Quick side note to this "Delay" issue in Keyclone. Has anyone noticed that the more WoW windows you have open the slower the delay? In my mind this equates to system slowdown from hardware/os not because Keyclone has any intention of inputing delays.

[Kicksome]

This is a total troll post. I've been using keyclone for over a year with no issues at all. There's been no confirmed bans from keyclone - ever.

[RobinGBrown]

This is a total troll post. I've been using keyclone for over a year with no issues at all. There's been no confirmed bans from keyclone - ever.

Agreed! It seems to me that Zanthor and Stealthy45 are acting like Lax hand puppets. The original post is a deliberate smear attempt. I don't trust those ex botters to recommend software and I think that anyone else should make up their own mind.

p.s. I fully expect stealthy45 to come along and multiquote a few more posts in a minute and apend his misinformation - it's not a winning technique

[zanthor]

This is a total troll post. I've been using keyclone for over a year with no issues at all. There's been no confirmed bans from keyclone - ever.Agreed! It seems to me that Zanthor and Stealthy45 are acting like Lax hand puppets. The original post is a deliberate smear attempt. I don't trust those ex botters to recommend software and I think that anyone else should make up their own mind.

p.s. I fully expect stealthy45 to come along and multiquote a few more posts in a minute and apend his misinformation - it's not a winning techniqueCall it what you like, but if you don't think the discussion of delays in software is relevant to software being bannable... programable or not, a delay is questionable. If you check my posting history you will find that I'm an avid supporter of KeyClone, and have continued to be so even after I personally made the switch. KeyClone is by far the easiest out of the box solution for the average multiboxer. No other software allows you to unzip an archive, block 6 keys with a blacklist and be playing inside of 5 minutes successfully multiboxing.

[stealthy45]

Agreed! It seems to me that Zanthor and Stealthy45 are acting like Lax hand puppets. The original post is a deliberate smear attempt. I don't trust those ex botters to recommend software and I think that anyone else should make up their own mind.

p.s. I fully expect stealthy45 to come along and multiquote a few more posts in a minute and apend his misinformation - it's not a winning technique
First off, that's pretty off topic.

Second, I am no one's puppet.
If you want "a deliberate smear attempt", I suggest you reread some of keyclone's posts. An example, from this thread:

loops (innerspace)...
and a whole host of other tools the user would need in order to make an automated bot engine. (most aggress being innerspace...)
this would be most definitely illegal.


BUT, AHK, HKN, and IS all provide the user with programmable delays, looping, conditionals, and out-of-game macro capability (one key producing numerous key hits per wow). these capabilities are obviously illegal
There's plenty of misinformation here.

I have said nothing negative about keyclone software in this thread, nor has zanthor. As he said, he posted this thread in order to attempt to identify what was causing the lengthy wait in keyclone's mouse broadcasting. I have asked a few specific unanswered questions I am still hoping for answers on - there was nothing "troll" about this post.
If you're looking for trolling, I suggest you go back to barrens chat or 4chan.

Now then, would you be so kind as to point out my "misinformation"? And please, do it in a PM.

[Kicksome]

Everything has a delay in it, whether it's hardware or software broadcasting. It's impossible for there NOT to be a delay when something is broadcast. I don't see blizzard saying a .1ms delay is any more OK than a 3000ms delay. So this whole topic is moot.

[Freddie]

Instead of talking about programs, why don't we look at this from the opposite side -- the rules.

Can anyone quote or link a document by Blizzard where they say delays are illegal?

I'd like to see exactly what they say. The precise words.

[zanthor]

Everything has a delay in it, whether it's hardware or software broadcasting. It's impossible for there NOT to be a delay when something is broadcast. I don't see blizzard saying a .1ms delay is any more OK than a 3000ms delay. So this whole topic is moot.The difference is that a 1ms delay makes my alts jump and fall off the cliff into the canyon... a 3000ms delay makes my alts jump 3 seconds after I jump, potentially being useful for navigating said canyon.

Now that said, we aren't talking about jumping here, but clicking, never the less you could use this sort of delay to have a positive effect and stagger the pulses of a spell such as blizzard increasing the lockdown duration and effect of an ice mage team... suddenly you aren't talking an innoculous delay, but something players in pvp could really bitch about to the GM, the GM watches, see's this, asks how you are doing it, y ou say I'm using "ProductX" which happens to have a delay between clicks, and then boom, suspended...

Not saying this is how it rolls, but its definitely a possibility of how it could play out. Yes, you could achieve the same results with a round robin key and instant mouseclicks... and that would be without a doubt legal.

[Freddie]

...you could use this sort of delay to have a positive effect and stagger the pulses of a spell such as blizzard increasing the lockdown duration and effect of an ice mage team...
I didn't know this. Apparently I was wrong when I said this type of delay can't create an advantage.