IS:WindowSnapper - PIP on Speed

[zanthor]

So I've been playing with IS:WindowSnapper tonight and it's pretty damn amazing, I'll be converting my entire system over to IS before Lich King releases.

The swap between windows in shattrah from 400x250 to 1680x1050 instantly... the slowest it swapped was 28ms, the average I was getting was 5ms, fastest was 2ms...

No grainy graphics, no client lag, no hitch, hickup, burp, etc.

The scripts I wrote up are far from ready for prime time, but I'll be working on getting my setup polished out and within a month or so expect to see what I've taken from Lax (tons of help!) and worked into my config... Right now I can box between 2 and 8, and I'll be working on a bit of fancy math to make that scale outwards.

System Spec's:
AMD Phenom 9600 (Quad core, 2.3ghz w/TLB Erratta disabled)
4GB Ram
8800GT video card
WoW running from a SATA 3.0 500GB drive, symlinked folder.

[zanthor]

For those interested, the scripts I am using:

wow.iss - used to launch wows with the command "run wow #" where # is the number of wows you want...


function main(int clients)
{
variable int Count
for (Count:Set[0] ; ${Count}<${clients} ; Count:Inc)
{
open "World of Warcraft" "World of Warcraft Default Profile" "run multi ${clients}"
/* Wait 2 seconds (wait takes tenths of seconds) */
wait 20
}
}


multi.iss - Used to setup each client to it's own region, similar to KeyClones PIP except you leave gaps in the layout, I'll be seeing what I can do to change this, however I'm actually liking the 100% relative positioning as my keybinds on my x-keys can match it.


function main(int clients)
{
while ${Sessions} < ${clients} - 1
waitframe
variable int nSession
nSession:Set["${Session.Right[-2]}"]

variable int nXsize
variable int nYsize
variable int nXpos
variable int nYpos
variable int nVertSplit

if ${Sessions} > 3
{
nVertSplit:Set["4"]
}
else
{
nVertSplit:Set["${Sessions}+1"]
}
nXsize:Set["10*(${Math.Calc["1024/${nVertSplit}*1.6/10"].Int})"]
nYsize:Set["${nXsize}/1.6"]

if ${nSession} <= 4
{
nXpos:Set["0-${nXsize}"]
nYpos:Set["(${nSession}-1)*${nYsize}"]
}
else
{
nXpos:Set["0-${nXsize}*2"]
nYpos:Set["(${nSession}-5)*${nYsize}"]
}

run windowsnapper -pos ${nXpos},${nYpos} -size ${nXsize}x${nYsize}
windowpos -viewable 0,0
windowsize -viewable 1680x1050

/* Setup Hotkeys up to 10 clients*/
if ${nSession} <= 10
globalbind is${nSession}_key "Ctrl+F${nSession}" "windowvisibility foreground;relay all press Ctrl+F${nSession}"

/* Setup processor affinity up to 10 clients's*/
if ${nSession} < 4
{
proc ${nSession} only ${Math.Calc["${nSession}+1"]} on
}
else if ${nSession} == 4 or ${nSession} == 9
{
proc 1 only 4 on
}
else if ${nSession} == 5 or ${nSession} == 10
{
proc 1 on 2 on 3 on 4 on
}
else if ${nSession} < 10
{
proc ${Math.Calc["${nSession}-5"]} only ${Math.Calc["${nSession}-4"]} on
}
}


The only other file used is the windowsnapper.iss from Lavishsoft.

http://www.lavishsoft.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=43&Itemid=91

[Suribusi]

Nicely done, you pick up on LS very quickly. If you or anyone else has questions about IS/LS/LGUI, etc feel free to ask/post. I'm a 4 year veteran.

-S

[phara]

Do you have experience with opening windows using different graphics adapters as primary (not monitor, graphics card).

I've been looking for a fix for the dual view performance problem, and I recall on another thread Lax posted that IS can specify the adapter when launching a window (so directx loads the resources on the adapter the window is being displayed with).

A workaround is to manually change your primary display in windows, run wow, change primary, run other wow. I'm curious how IS does it. I was doing some poking around to see how I could extend something like maximizer to do this without manual steps, and the only thing I arrived at was using windows GDI functions to modify the display properties (ChangeDisplaySettingsEx) to set the primary display before launching each wow.exe.

[Lax]

Inner Space is able to do it because it is a layer between the game and Windows (and DirectX). The game selects the display adapter with DirectX API, and Inner Space can change that selection. If keyclone and maximizer are not build this way, they cannot do the same thing, they would have to do a workaround instead.

[keyclone]

the reason keyclone is not done that way is to avoid breaching the line.

there are many things you can do, once you are in game memory... which some people are aware of (this is where wowglider gets its mojo)

others have no idea, but to discuss it would be to beat a dead horse... again

and last i checked, IS was bannable via warden.

personally, i'd like to keep my accounts.

[zanthor]

and last i checked, IS was bannable via warden. I'd be very curious where you got this data, I can't find anywhere stating it's bannable as long as you follow the rules laid out (1 action = 1 action)

[keyclone]

InnerSpace is the foundation on which the other apps were based.

the ban wave was back in the spring (here's a blog on it http://onwarden.blogspot.com/2008/05/may-20th-ban-wave-wow-242.html )

the 'one keypress => one action per game window' rule of thumb takes for granted that you are not mucking with game memory. what would keep someone from reading passwords or changing various client side data? this is exactly what glider did and why blizzard went after it

[eqjoe]

I have been using IS without any extra extensions for months with no problems. IS does not cross the line by invading the WoW client memory space. From what I understand, IS works using only Windows DX APIs.

-j

[Lax]

Hi Rob, welcome to the discussion. We have been discussing this in other threads on dual-boxing.com as of late, you are welcome to bring yourself up to speed by reading them.

In short, Inner Space is not nearly the same thing as Glider. To say that "Inner Space is in-game and therefore bannable like Glider" would be the same as saying "WinEQ 2 is in-game and therefore bannable like Glider", and then to show how wrong that notion is, last year they un-banned WinEQ 2 users and gave them 2 days on their WoW subscription for the trouble. That is much like the Cedega bans -- which is also in-process - for which they gave the users 20 days back on their WoW subscription. So, to say that because it is in-process means it is not allowed is incorrect. Also, Glider is entirely out of process and does read the *game* memory, and Inner Space is in-process and does not read the *game* memory (interaction with Windows or DirectX is not part of the *game* logic).

What WILL get you banned is using additional software loaded into Inner Space, such as ISXWarden or ISXWoW. If you do not use ISXWarden or ISXWoW, you are not in immediate danger of being banned. If you do, you would get banned within 20 minutes (so I'm told by people who have tried).

We would all like to keep our accounts. Please keep the FUD out of it, and we can remain civil and coexist peacefully on these forums.

[Suribusi]

InnerSpace is the foundation on which the other apps were based.

the ban wave was back in the spring (here's a blog on it http://onwarden.blogspot.com/2008/05/may-20th-ban-wave-wow-242.html )

the 'one keypress => one action per game window' rule of thumb takes for granted that you are not mucking with game memory. what would keep someone from reading passwords or changing various client side data? this is exactly what glider did and why blizzard went after it

Lets leave the misinformation out of this thread please, ok? Your points are misleading to the actual cause and irrelevant to the discussion, on top of being inaccurate.

-S

[keyclone]

i read the other thread and purposefully did not respond to your advertisement. i barely respond in any of these threads (ie: octopus, ahk, hkn) unless there is something that could get an unsuspecting user in trouble.

to say that you have access to in-game memory, but you promise to be good... is just funny. you have OBVIOUSLY crossed the line once you have access to their applications memory. i would even go as far as to say that glider did nothing wrong as it behaved as any innerspace mod would. the root problem wasn't the type of mod but the mechanism that breached the line in the first place. (i would have to read the EULA to see if you violate any reverse-engineering wording by reading the binary and acting on it)

if you are saying that it is perfectly acceptable with Blizzard for your application to be in the same memory space as wow, i would love to hear your justification.

for those that are unaware, having full access to blizzard's in-game memory could give InnerSpace various in-game knowledge, like passwords, locations of players, npcs, as well as resources. depending on wow's messaging protocol and client/server model, he could even introduce packet drops that could minimize damage, decrease timers or increase damage output (although i'm fairly certain blizzard checks their timers on the server)

to say that Blizzard would be fine with that is just funny.

[eqjoe]

i read the other thread and purposefully did not respond to your advertisement. i barely respond in any of these threads (ie: octopus, ahk, hkn) unless there is something that could get an unsuspecting user in trouble.

to say that you have access to in-game memory, but you promise to be good... is just funny. you have OBVIOUSLY crossed the line once you have access to their applications memory. i would even go as far as to say that glider did nothing wrong as it behaved as any innerspace mod would. the root problem wasn't the type of mod but the mechanism that breached the line in the first place. (i would have to read the EULA to see if you violate any reverse-engineering wording by reading the binary and acting on it)

if you are saying that it is perfectly acceptable with Blizzard for your application to be in the same memory space as wow, i would love to hear your justification.

for those that are unaware, having full access to blizzard's in-game memory could give InnerSpace various in-game knowledge, like passwords, locations of players, npcs, as well as resources. depending on wow's messaging protocol and client/server model, he could even introduce packet drops that could minimize damage, decrease timers or increase damage output (although i'm fairly certain blizzard checks their timers on the server)

to say that Blizzard would be fine with that is just funny.

IS works with ANY DX game. It knows nothing of WoW or the WoW client and has zero in-game knowledge. You would need in depth knowledge of the client memory structures to get information such as passwords and game object data such as NPC location and resources. How exactly would an application that is not written specifically for WoW and in fact, this same application have the same functionality for any DX game "OBVIOUSLY" cross this so called "line"?

Sorry Rob, I have a lot of respect for you and your project. KeyClone is a fine tool and I have thoroughly enjoyed using it. I respectfully disagree with your point of view on this subject.

-j

[Lax]

i read the other thread and purposefully did not respond to your advertisement. i barely respond in any of these threads (ie: octopus, ahk, hkn) unless there is something that could get an unsuspecting user in trouble.

to say that you have access to in-game memory, but you promise to be good... is just funny. you have OBVIOUSLY crossed the line once you have access to their applications memory. i would even go as far as to say that glider did nothing wrong as it behaved as any innerspace mod would. the root problem wasn't the type of mod but the mechanism that breached the line in the first place. (i would have to read the EULA to see if you violate any reverse-engineering wording by reading the binary and acting on it)

if you are saying that it is perfectly acceptable with Blizzard for your application to be in the same memory space as wow, i would love to hear your justification.

for those that are unaware, having full access to blizzard's in-game memory could give InnerSpace various in-game knowledge, like passwords, locations of players, npcs, as well as resources. depending on wow's messaging protocol and client/server model, he could even introduce packet drops that could minimize damage, decrease timers or increase damage output (although i'm fairly certain blizzard checks their timers on the server)

to say that Blizzard would be fine with that is just funny.My "advertisement" never included me linking to my site, or trying to market my product. Other people do that just fine. If I was here to advertise at this time, you would see a link to my products next to the links to yours. I came here to respond to misinformation, and it sounds like you are trying to assist in spreading that misinformation. I am not here to argue with you, I have attempted to be respectful to you and your product and to the other people here who support you. I can see that you have the wrong idea about a number of things, so I will try to help you out.

Reverse engineering is the act of taking something apart to interpret its engineering. Reverse engineering tools include things called Disassemblers. Inner Space is as much a "reverse engineering tool" as KeyClone is. Neither are. I do or have done reverse engineering on a number of targets, including Warden, including World of Warcraft, EverQuest, EverQuest 2, and a number of other games. The purpose of reverse engineering as it relates to Inner Space is for interoperability -- to find out why Inner Space is not compatible with a particular game's usage of Windows API, and to solve that problem. Wine developers would be doing pretty much the same thing to fix the same sorts of problems with Wine. However, using software such as Inner Space that is supported by its developers performing reverse engineering, does not make you a reverse engineer, and does not cause YOU to violate the Terms of Service. As a reverse engineer, I am well aware that any reverse engineering of World of Warcraft or its components causes me to violate the ToS, but as reverse engineering for the purpose of interoperability is explicitly allowed by the DMCA, I believe I am RIGHT to do so, even if it may mean that Blizzard can ban my account for my actions.

It is acceptable for my application to be in the same memory space as World of Warcraft. A number of other applications also reside in the World of Warcraft memory-space. I gave examples in the other thread, but off the top of my head: Anti-virus software, anti-spyware software, Logitech mouse software, Trillian (instant messaging software) all have components that reside in-game. Do you think Blizzard is going to ban me for using Trillian, just because it has a component that lives inside the game process? Because I don't. Also, residing OUT of game does not prevent you from accessing World of Warcraft's memory, and the only difference is the METHOD of doing so. Also, Inner Space has absolutely no knowledge of World of Warcraft's game memory, and it would be utterly stupid to give it any -- Inner Space is extensible, if someone wanted to do any of that stuff, they don't need it build into the platform, they could go hack away on their own. I also find it reprehensible that you would suggest that Inner Space has any more access to anyone's World of Warcraft password than KeyClone does -- do you see me saying that nobody should use KeyClone because it's made of the same stuff that keyloggers are made of?

The same arguments you are making about what Inner Space "could" do could also be made about KeyClone, or anti-virus software, or anti-spyware software, or Logitech mouse software, or literally any software running on your PC. Not only is your argument misleading, but it also suggests that you lack the technical knowledge to make these distinctions, and this is why it is ultimately not up to YOU, but it is up to the appropriate team at Blizzard. To me (and actually other people said this to me before I read your initial responses on this thread) it just looks like you feel threatened by my product and you are trying to spread FUD, in the same way that politicians sling mud in order to try to get people to vote for them instead of the other guy, and I don't think that is appropriate for these forums.

[keyclone]

amazing. you actually think that an instant message client is in the same memory space as wow, or any other application? that's pretty funny.

<snip>

i had a bunch of paragraphs going on about protected memory and application spaces and how inner space would breach these lines. i decided to drop it and not continue the thread, thereby giving you what you want.... continued discussion.

instead, i'll defer to the blues on the wow forums:
"I'd personally avoid this as it does appear to be very questionable." - Reythur [ link ('http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=11675540596&sid=1&pageNo=2') ]

inner space was caught up in the ban wave, and lax has stated that he had to give depositions to Blizzard attorneys. that's just about as bad as it gets without jail time or high fines.

i was multi-boxing with keyclone for over a year before i came to dual-boxing.com. the community is friendly and helpful. your responses are counter to that and come with the added bonus of pissing off Blizzard.

and for the record, i do not like the thought of you risking the multi-boxing community with your product.

[Suribusi]

to say that you have access to in-game memory, but you promise to be good... is just funny. you have OBVIOUSLY crossed the line once you have access to their applications memory.
*snip*
if you are saying that it is perfectly acceptable with Blizzard for your application to be in the same memory space as wow, i would love to hear your justification.

for those that are unaware, having full access to blizzard's in-game memory could give InnerSpace various in-game knowledge, like passwords, locations of players, npcs, as well as resources. depending on wow's messaging protocol and client/server model, he could even introduce packet drops that could minimize damage, decrease timers or increase damage output (although i'm fairly certain blizzard checks their timers on the server)

to say that Blizzard would be fine with that is just funny.

With all do respect sir (as I agree with eqjoe on your tools, and support of them), but here is a popular product that does about everything you are arguing against, and last I checked they had 100,000 and counting profiles.
http://wow.magelo.com/home.jspa

-S

[Lax]

amazing. you actually think that an instant message client is in the same memory space as wow, or any other application? that's pretty funny. Really? You are going to try to argue on this one?

Let's see what's loaded in the Inner Space process. Surely, there should not be anything related to an IM client?

Module 0x00400000-0x004A2000: C:\Program Files\InnerSpace\InnerSpace.exe (Wed Oct 22 03:19:05 2008)
Module 0x00980000-0x00993000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\vlsp.dll (Mon Jan 24 18:33:00 2005)
Module 0x00F60000-0x01317000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\d3dx9_37.dll (Wed Mar 05 00:54:53 2008)
Module 0x018C0000-0x018DE000: C:\Program Files\InnerSpace\IS-D3D9Engine.dll (Wed Oct 22 01:18:51 2008)
Module 0x01C00000-0x01C3A000: C:\Program Files\InnerSpace\IS-VirtualInput.dll (Sat Oct 04 18:34:34 2008)
Module 0x020E0000-0x020E6000: C:\windows\printer.dll (Wed Jun 28 16:31:06 2006)
Module 0x020F0000-0x0210C000: c:\progra~1\mcafee.com\vso\McVSSkt.dll (Wed Apr 28 17:54:11 2004)
Module 0x02370000-0x02398000: C:\Program Files\Trillian\events.dll (Wed Oct 01 19:13:22 2008)
Module 0x023A0000-0x023AF000: C:\Program Files\WIDCOMM\Bluetooth Software\btkeyind.dll (Thu Jul 07 22:22:17 2005)
Module 0x023C0000-0x023D3000: C:\Program Files\Dell\QuickSet\dadkeyb.dll (Tue Jun 17 16:50:06 2003)
Module 0x02440000-0x02567000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\urlmon.dll (Tue Aug 26 07:24:30 2008)
Module 0x03000000-0x03164000: C:\Program Files\InnerSpace\IS-Kernel.dll (Wed Oct 22 03:18:57 2008)
Module 0x05000000-0x05151000: C:\Program Files\InnerSpace\ISUI.dll (Wed Oct 22 03:18:23 2008)
Module 0x070D0000-0x0710B000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\WMASF.DLL (Sat Oct 20 13:01:30 2007)
Module 0x086C0000-0x08904000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\WMVCore.dll (Thu Dec 07 06:38:52 2006)
Module 0x0FFD0000-0x0FFF8000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\rsaenh.dll (Wed Jul 07 02:17:12 2004)
Module 0x10000000-0x1001E000: C:\Program Files\InnerSpace\Lavish.dll (Tue Oct 30 17:12:23 2007)
Module 0x4FDD0000-0x4FF76000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\d3d9.dll (Wed Aug 04 07:56:03 2004)
Module 0x5B860000-0x5B8B4000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\netapi32.dll (Wed Oct 15 16:57:55 2008)
Module 0x5D090000-0x5D12A000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\COMCTL32.dll (Fri Aug 25 15:45:58 2006)
Module 0x60610000-0x60616000: c:\WINDOWS\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v2.0.50727\fusi on.dll (Wed Oct 24 03:28:45 2007)
Module 0x662B0000-0x66308000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\hnetcfg.dll (Wed Aug 04 07:56:16 2004)
Module 0x688F0000-0x688F9000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\HID.DLL (Wed Aug 04 07:56:12 2004)
Module 0x6CE10000-0x6CE48000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\DINPUT8.dll (Wed Aug 04 07:56:32 2004)
Module 0x6D990000-0x6D996000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\d3d8thk.dll (Wed Aug 04 07:56:02 2004)
Module 0x71A50000-0x71A8F000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\mswsock.dll (Fri Jun 20 17:41:10 2008)
Module 0x71A90000-0x71A98000: C:\WINDOWS\System32\wshtcpip.dll (Wed Aug 04 07:57:49 2004)
Module 0x71AA0000-0x71AA8000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\WS2HELP.dll (Wed Aug 04 07:57:39 2004)
Module 0x71AB0000-0x71AC7000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\WS2_32.dll (Wed Aug 04 07:57:38 2004)
Module 0x74720000-0x7476B000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\MSCTF.dll (Tue Feb 26 11:59:50 2008)
Module 0x74D90000-0x74DFB000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\usp10.dll (Wed Aug 04 07:56:42 2004)
Module 0x755C0000-0x755EE000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\msctfime.ime (Wed Aug 04 07:57:31 2004)
Module 0x76380000-0x76385000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\MSIMG32.dll (Wed Aug 04 07:58:31 2004)
Module 0x76390000-0x763AD000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\IMM32.DLL (Wed Aug 04 07:56:30 2004)
Module 0x763B0000-0x763F9000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\comdlg32.dll (Wed Aug 04 07:56:32 2004)
Module 0x76B40000-0x76B6D000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\WINMM.dll (Wed Aug 04 07:57:10 2004)
Module 0x76BF0000-0x76BFB000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\PSAPI.DLL (Wed Aug 04 07:56:58 2004)
Module 0x76C30000-0x76C5E000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\WINTRUST.dll (Wed Aug 04 07:56:41 2004)
Module 0x76C90000-0x76CB8000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\IMAGEHLP.dll (Wed Aug 04 07:56:25 2004)
Module 0x76D60000-0x76D79000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\iphlpapi.dll (Fri May 19 12:59:41 2006)
Module 0x76F20000-0x76F47000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\DNSAPI.dll (Fri Jun 20 17:41:10 2008)
Module 0x76F60000-0x76F8C000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\WLDAP32.dll (Wed Aug 04 07:56:43 2004)
Module 0x76FB0000-0x76FB8000: C:\WINDOWS\System32\winrnr.dll (Wed Aug 04 07:56:35 2004)
Module 0x76FC0000-0x76FC6000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\rasadhlp.dll (Mon Jun 26 17:37:10 2006)
Module 0x76FD0000-0x7704F000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\CLBCATQ.DLL (Tue Jul 26 04:39:44 2005)
Module 0x77050000-0x77115000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\COMRes.dll (Wed Aug 04 07:56:36 2004)
Module 0x77120000-0x771AB000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\OLEAUT32.dll (Tue Dec 04 18:38:12 2007)
Module 0x773D0000-0x774D3000: C:\WINDOWS\WinSxS\x86_Microsoft.Windows.Common-Controls_6595b64144ccf1df_6.0.2600.2982_x-ww_ac3f9c03\comctl32.dll (Fri Aug 25 15:45:55 2006)
Module 0x774E0000-0x7761D000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\ole32.dll (Tue Jul 26 04:39:47 2005)
Module 0x77920000-0x77A13000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\SETUPAPI.dll (Wed Aug 04 07:56:32 2004)
Module 0x77A80000-0x77B14000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\CRYPT32.dll (Wed Aug 04 07:56:01 2004)
Module 0x77B20000-0x77B32000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\MSASN1.dll (Wed Aug 04 07:57:23 2004)
Module 0x77B40000-0x77B62000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\appHelp.dll (Wed Aug 04 07:56:36 2004)
Module 0x77C00000-0x77C08000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\VERSION.dll (Wed Aug 04 07:56:39 2004)
Module 0x77C10000-0x77C68000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\msvcrt.dll (Wed Aug 04 07:59:14 2004)
Module 0x77DD0000-0x77E6B000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\ADVAPI32.dll (Wed Aug 04 07:56:23 2004)
Module 0x77E70000-0x77F02000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\RPCRT4.dll (Mon Jul 09 13:09:42 2007)
Module 0x77F10000-0x77F57000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\GDI32.dll (Wed Feb 20 06:51:05 2008)
Module 0x77F60000-0x77FD6000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\SHLWAPI.dll (Fri Jun 15 08:12:29 2007)
Module 0x77FE0000-0x77FF1000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\Secur32.dll (Wed Aug 04 07:56:49 2004)
Module 0x78000000-0x78045000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\iertutil.dll (Tue Aug 26 07:24:34 2008)
Module 0x78130000-0x781CB000: C:\WINDOWS\WinSxS\x86_Microsoft.VC80.CRT_1fc8b3b9a 1e18e3b_8.0.50727.1433_x-ww_5cf844d2\MSVCR80.dll (Wed Oct 24 03:02:06 2007)
Module 0x79000000-0x79046000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\mscoree.dll (Wed Oct 24 07:35:46 2007)
Module 0x79E70000-0x7A3FF000: c:\WINDOWS\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v2.0.50727\msco rwks.dll (Wed Oct 24 07:41:29 2007)
Module 0x7C340000-0x7C396000: C:\Program Files\Trillian\MSVCR71.dll (Fri Feb 21 12:42:20 2003)
Module 0x7C800000-0x7C8F5000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\kernel32.dll (Mon Apr 16 15:52:53 2007)
Module 0x7C900000-0x7C9B0000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\ntdll.dll (Wed Aug 04 07:56:36 2004)
Module 0x7C9C0000-0x7D1D7000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\SHELL32.dll (Fri Oct 26 03:33:59 2007)
Module 0x7E410000-0x7E4A0000: C:\WINDOWS\system32\USER32.dll (Thu Mar 08 15:36:28 2007)

There is, in fact, Trillian-related components loaded in my process. I didn't put it there. There's also an application from Dell (I'm on a Dell laptop), a bluetooth software component, McAfee anti-virus component... You're really just opening yourself up here for a beating that I really do not want to be giving you, but if you insist on continuing, I will continue.

[Lax]

I hit the post size limit from my paste of loaded modules, so here's the rest of my post.
i had a bunch of paragraphs going on about protected memory and application spaces and how inner space would breach these lines. i decided to drop it and not continue the thread, thereby giving you what you want.... continued discussion.

instead, i'll defer to the blues on the wow forums:
"I'd personally avoid this as it does appear to be very questionable." - Reythur [ link ('http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=11675540596&sid=1&pageNo=2') ]

inner space was caught up in the ban wave, and lax has stated that he had to give depositions to Blizzard attorneys. that's just about as bad as it gets without jail time or high fines.

i was multi-boxing with keyclone for over a year before i came to dual-boxing.com. the community is friendly and helpful. your responses are counter to that and come with the added bonus of pissing off Blizzard.

and for the record, i do not like the thought of you risking the multi-boxing community with your product. 1. That is a very nice quote for you to take out of context. The quote could be applied to anything, and you're not taking into account the fact that the thread he was posting on started and ended with incorrect information, which would mislead any reader, and this obviously contributed to his guarded response. Also, Reythur himself indicated on another thread started by Vyndree that OTHER GM's have a better understanding than he would. There was also a recent news article (I wish I could find it now) about a study showing that people will believe false rumors, even after the false information had been corrected by the author.

2. I indeed I had to give a deposition to a Blizzard attorney in November 2007. The reason I had to give that deposition is because I did business with MDY, the developer of Glider. Being deposed does not make you a criminal or anything of the sort, nor does it imply that you have done anything wrong. It means that you have information they are interested in. In a deposition they ask you questions that you are required to answer, unless your attorney tells you not to answer and has some valid reason. It is part of the legal process. As part of my deposition, they did ask me questions about Inner Space, as well as ISXWarden, and that gave them information that was probably useful to them in was unrelated to the Glider case. They did not insist to me at my deposition that I had done anything wrong.

3. "Inner Space was caught up in the ban wave" is misleading. Firstly, there have been many ban waves, most of which had nothing to do with Inner Space or people using it for whatever reason. Secondly, the bans were for ISXWoW and/or ISXWarden, not for Inner Space itself. ISXWoW and ISXWarden violate the Terms of Service, Inner Space does not. You would have to seek out and download ISXWoW and ISXWarden somewhere other than where you would get Inner Space. I do understand that you, and some others, do not discern a difference between Inner Space, ISXWarden, and/or ISXWoW. However, there is a difference, and people who do have a technical understanding, do in fact understand that difference. Blizzard is not stupid, and they are not quick to ban people -- these are their paying customers, who are doing nothing wrong, and banning is NOT something they take lightly. I am also 5-boxing with Inner Space, I pay for my WoW accounts with my own credit card, I use my real name and address, wouldn't you think I would be the first one they ban if they are so against Inner Space?

4. I would absolutely love for you to show any evidence that I am "pissing off Blizzard". I have been multi-boxing with my own products, and sharing them, since EverQuest 1, with my company being started with an audience of multi-boxers in 2004 -- I guess that gives me 4+ years of experience with technical support and development in multi-boxing software. I don't see where I am being unfriendly, or unhelpful -- I have been responding to completely unrelated threads with helpful information where I can give it. You on the other hand are spreading your clearly biased FUD about me and/or my product, and I am sharing facts and/or evidenced knowledge. All of my posts except those on unrelated threads have been defending myself against ridiculous claims like your own.

5. Great, thank you for your opinion. For the record, I do not like the thought of you spreading absolute FUD about my product. Do not speak about that which you do not know, which is just about everything you have said in this thread so far. I am not here talking shit about you or your product, and again I have attempted to be as respectful to you as possible, but the more you attack me, the more I can only show you the same level of respect I get from you.

I'm not asking you for continued discussion. I would prefer that you keep your FUD in your head, and not spread it on these forums. If you actually had a valid point on any of the above, there might be a discussion. As it stands, it's just you making random claims, and isn't much different from the other threads, and in fact nearly all of the points you think you are making have already been refuted in the other threads, so I'm just repeating myself. That is just one more big reason why I believe all you are trying to do is think with your wallet, because you feel threatened by my product's ability to outperform yours, especially considering that information came from a respected member of this community. In the end I will let my product speak for itself, I do not need to spread false information about yours.

[phara]

Sorry, didn't mean to kick this up again. I'm with keyclone in saying that manipulating how the directx device is obtained is crossing the line (not going to debate that point, just as a software developer and a end user familiar with the TOS that is my conclusion).

I DO however feel that some solution like I mentioned is completely legit. Tools like maximizer kick off the game exe, let it initialize it's own directx devices, then modify the window size / decorations through windows API calls. Using a GDI method to modify which adapter is the primary before and after the game exe gets run is no different than me setting them manually through desktop properties before and after running them (which is the current workaround)- I just think it would be useful to have it baked into a tool like maximizer instead of doing it manually or writing windows scripts to do it.

[Lax]

Sorry, didn't mean to kick this up again. I'm with keyclone in saying that manipulating how the directx device is obtained is crossing the line (not going to debate that point, just as a software developer and a end user familiar with the TOS that is my conclusion). Again I will fall back to my points about WinEQ 2 and Cedega (and Wine). All of these are a similar layer, used by the game, that "manipulate" in the same fashion. If being a layer between the game and the Operating System is "crossing the line" then why would "the line" apply to Inner Space, but not apply to WinEQ 2 or Cedega? They did un-ban the people using those that were banned in err, and they did give those people additional time on their WoW subscription, and to me that would imply that it is not "crossing the line". If you or anyone else is bringing up the ToS please quote the relevant portion -- so far everyone has missed the relevant portions but successfully quoted portions that don't apply. I'm backing up my response with things that have actually taken place, please explain what backs up your position if you're going to respond.

I understand and respect that it's your opinion, and you are free to have your opinion. I believe Blizzard's opinion of whether THAT is crossing the line is very clearly evidenced by history.

[PyrostasisTDK]

If it makes you feel better Lax I appreciate your work and your help on the forums, with out your software I wouldnt be able to box in the games that I do.

[Steph]

What I find amusing is that Lax is bringing up his product here on dual-boxing.com again and again. Each time, he goes on to explain that his product is not just white, but pure. Only evil or stupid people would ever use the dirty extensions and get banned! That of course has nothing to do with him whatsoever, even though he wrote and distributed these extensions. Compartmentalizing the free dirty modules and the sale of the base application is nothing but a smokescreen and an argumentative tool. At the end of the day, the banned people paid for the base application and got the dirty extensions free with the same natural person behind both, who then goes on and claims to have nothing to do with the dirty bits. =]

What it comes down to is trust. Knowing that any software you run could do things that you don't like, whom do you trust enough to run their software on your system? When comparing Lax with his bannable extensions and his helping hand for MDY and a 'do whatever you can most likely get away with' attitude with Rob who has been always extremely conscious of limiting his software's capabilities to what he is reasonably certain will not cause any problems, I can not help but laugh at the notion to go with Lax's products. Lax has written and distributed addons to this product which have gotten people banned. That is enough information on him for me. I am sure he is good at what he does, but considering what I can see of his attitude and questionable morality, I don't want anything to do with his shady products.

[kipperflip]

What I find amusing is that Lax is bringing up his product here on dual-boxing.com again and again.
I thought this thread was started by a veteran of this community?


What it comes down to is trust. Knowing that any software you run could do things that you don't like, whom do you trust enough to run their software on your system?
Well, I've been running software from Lax for approximately 2.5 years, I trust him, so does that mean I'm free to take advantage of whichever product works best for me?

I can understand supporting someone who has given to this community like the maker of Keyclone has. I get that. In fact, I'll bet there are people on this forum who will refuse to use anything else, ever, because they want to support Keyclone. That's cool.

However, to me, this is a game. I want every advantage I can get. I mean, isn't that what boxing is all about? So I'm going to take a look at everything available to me.

Isn't that what the OP is doing?

No one has presented any specific information that indicates that using Inner Space in the manner the OP is doing is any more bannable than keyclone. In fact, from what I can see, the only people presenting credible arguments are the people in support of Inner Space. It sounds like the opposition is boiling down to, "but he has a bad rep". No, I'm not ignoring the fact that there are people that used Inner Space in ways that got them banned. However, that's not what the OP is talking about.

Tell you what, can we agree to disagree on the "rep" issue and get back on topic and let those of us who are confident in our ability to use Inner Space in an appropriate manner discuss ways in which it is best to do so?

[zanthor]

What I find amusing is that Lax is bringing up his product here on dual-boxing.com again and again.I challenge you to show me a single thread started by Lax, or a thread where any other topic was discussed and Lax posted saying "Innerspace can do that better" before someone else brought up IS.

That of course has nothing to do with him whatsoever, even though he wrote and distributed these extensions. Where has Lax EVER claimed he had nothing to do with ISXWarden? I can think of several posts where he does claim it.

Seriously, guns don't kill people, blood loss and/or trauma kills people, bullets fired from guns handled by people cause blood loss and/or trauma.

[phara]

I just have a few final comments for this. First, stop attacking Lax just for posting about his product - someone else posted a thread about his product, and someone else (me) asked a question about it. I'd expect him to respond.

Let me say from a software perspective I think both IS and keyclone are cool products and I respect the development effort that went into each. That said, all of us have to accept that the community will always be divided on software like IS, period.

My only comment about the debate is that every boxer that uses a third party product has to evaluate and accept the level of risk(of banning) that goes with it. Lax you've made some great points on many threads about how various uses of IS are not evil and don't currently result in bans (like with this DX issue I totally see your point). At the end of the day, blizz is agressive about banning things they consider unfair, and some of us (including me) see the potential for IS to be abused and get caught up in bans. Maybe we're wrong and that day will never come, or maybe some kid will publish his IS hack tomorrow and IS will be banned forever. Maybe firefox will be banned! Who knows?!?!

I work with a guy who won't drink pasturized milk becasue he thinks it damages his body. I don't attack, berate, or debate with him; I just accept that he won't accept the level of risk associated with drinking pasturized milk. We could have an intelligent discussion where we'd both be right, but at the end of the day we'll still be drinking different milk.

[stealthy45]

Only evil or stupid people would ever use the dirty extensions and get banned! That of course has nothing to do with him whatsoever, even though he wrote and distributed these extensions.
He did write one extension, ISXWarden, and distribute it for a while, for reasons unknown to me. It's a safe bet that he didn't want to lose customers who were using IS for one of its many possible uses. AFAIK, that's the only ToS-violating extension he has written, though you're free to show me proof otherwise.

ISXWoW was not written by Lax, but by an entirely differenet crew. Lax has not taken part in distribution of ISXWoW - it was available for download on the website one of the devs hosted.


Lax has written and distributed addons to this product which have gotten people banned.
ISXWoW/ISXWarden were known to be ToS-violating and therefore bannable, and anyone who got banned using them knew it could very well happen because they were using extensions that we KNEW Blizzard is against.
Vanilla IS isn't getting accounts banned. I'm currently dualboxing a pair of mages using IS, following the "one action == one action" rule (to the point of even using separate buttons for relaying a target and relaying a follow), to no ill effects.

[Steph]

Who wrote this or that extension that got people banned is pretty immaterial to me. Lax wrote IS making it a platform for anything else people wanted to do. There is an inherent risk to having an open platform, people do things with them and it fires back on the platforms reputation. Considering that Lax wrote ISXwarden and helped MDY with their hiding from warden, I think it is safe to assume that Lax does not mind at all if his products are used against the rules of the respective game. ISXwarden's purpose is to hide rule violations from detection. Lax posted in various threads here, adamantly proclaiming that IS is clean and no higher risk than another software. What he does not mention and dutifully ignores is that he designed IS as cheating tool rather than as multiboxing tool and that the software has many capabilities that are plainly not needed for boxing.

Yes, a tool is a tool. The user is responsible for what he does with it. Just like the G15. Depending on how you use it, it is against Blizzards rules or not.
The difference is that Keyclone can by design not be used to break Blizzards rules, while IS was designed to break rules.

[stealthy45]

What he does not mention and dutifully ignores is that he designed IS as cheating tool rather than as multiboxing tool and that the software has many capabilities that are plainly not needed for boxing.
Uhm, as you just said:

Lax wrote IS making it a platform for anything else people wanted to do.
He wrote it as an open platform, not a cheating tool or multiboxing tool, you're contradicting yourself.

You're right, the fact that a lot of people ended up using IS for botting does leave quite a stigma.


The difference is that Keyclone can by design not be used to break Blizzards rules, while IS was designed to break rules.
Find me a quote or other source where it is stated that IS was "designed to break rules".

[eqjoe]

Who wrote this or that extension that got people banned is pretty immaterial to me. Lax wrote IS making it a platform for anything else people wanted to do. There is an inherent risk to having an open platform, people do things with them and it fires back on the platforms reputation. Considering that Lax wrote ISXwarden and helped MDY with their hiding from warden, I think it is safe to assume that Lax does not mind at all if his products are used against the rules of the respective game. ISXwarden's purpose is to hide rule violations from detection. Lax posted in various threads here, adamantly proclaiming that IS is clean and no higher risk than another software. What he does not mention and dutifully ignores is that he designed IS as cheating tool rather than as multiboxing tool and that the software has many capabilities that are plainly not needed for boxing.

Yes, a tool is a tool. The user is responsible for what he does with it. Just like the G15. Depending on how you use it, it is against Blizzards rules or not.
The difference is that Keyclone can by design not be used to break Blizzards rules, while IS was designed to break rules.

So... you are clairvoyant and you know that Lax wrote IS as a tool to cheat. Why would Lax mention that he designed IS as a cheating tool when that is bullshit? Lax did not write a solution to cheat using IS. Other devs wrote those applications and some of them are making a lot of money as a result. If Lax was so very interested in cheating, don't you think he would be making some of that cash? ISXWarden has been discontinued for a long time. There is also a very good argument that by itself, ISXWarden was beguine. ISXWarden addressed a privacy issue regarding Blizzard's Warden process as it violated our personal rights. To assume you know what or why Lax wrote IS or anything else is wrong.

-j

EDIT: It was the EFF that declared Warden as spyware. Here is one of dozens of news articles on the subject. This one is by BBC : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4385050.stm

[Schwarz]

Until Blizzard comes out and says something all this argument over if or if not something will get you banned is pointless. This is one thing that you can not argue at the moment it is a gray area.

[stealthy45]

Until Blizzard comes out and says something all this argument over if or if not something will get you banned is pointless. This is one thing that you can not argue at the moment it is a gray area.
As are the other methods of multiboxing.

[eqjoe]

Until Blizzard comes out and says something all this argument over if or if not something will get you banned is pointless. This is one thing that you can not argue at the moment it is a gray area.

While I agree with you sir, the problem is and has been that Blizzard simply will not comment one way or the other. The one time we did get confirmation that Keyclone is cool is used in a reasonable manner was a fluke. To the best of my knowledge, they have not done that for any of the other tools found here.

-j

[zanthor]

There is an inherent risk to having an open platform, people do things with them and it fires back on the platforms reputation.So are you saying that you would not use any platform that has been utilized to create cheats/hacks/etc with?

Back on topic now...


I was going to post this in the [Other] IS:WindowSnapper - PIP on Speed, but it appears that thread got locked because of the flames.

I have a question about the multi.iss script you posted. I've looked through the source and I understand most of what is going on in the script.

However, I couldn't find any reference to what the proc lines in the case statement would actually do (i.e. proc 1 on 2 on 3 off 4 off). Could you explain that or point me to some documentation?

I've been looking at InnerSpace for a few weeks now and I'm interested in the options it can provide a multiboxer like myself who actually enjoys writing code. Your use of the IS:WindowSnapper module is very interesting and pushes my just a little be closer to making the jump from Keyclone to IS.

Sorry for the random PM from some guy you don't know. Like I said I was going to post this question in the thread.

Thank you in advance for your help.

Sivai proc is a command supported by IS to set processor affinity, the best performance I've gotten out of wow is by splitting each wow over 2 cpu's, (one on 1,2 two on 2,3 three on 3,4 four on 4,1 and five on 1,2,3,4) so thats all the proc command is doing there.

No problem about the PM, copied it here so others can benefit.

[Sivai]

Thanks for answering my question.

So the script launches a certain number of windows, dynamically positions them, and then binds hotkeys to bring each window to the foreground. All in about 70 lines of code, not including the code from IS:WindowSnapper.

Regardless of the IS debate, I think thats pretty cool.

Thanks for sharing zanthor!

[eqjoe]

Until Blizzard comes out and says something all this argument over if or if not something will get you banned is pointless. This is one thing that you can not argue at the moment it is a gray area.Its a potentially BANNABLE grey area.

Is it really worth the risk? Right or wrong, Blizzard calls the shots with WoW. In the end they have the final word. Why flirt with disaster?

Why? Because nothing works better for session and window management. Going from background to forground with any window of any resolution is instantaneous. There is a dozen reasons why this tool is worth looking at, and yes it is worth some risk.

Addressing the risk.... since we may never get Blizzard to give us feedback on any of the tools that we use here (except for the one exception), I believe there is the same risk using AHK and HKN. Both of those tools can be configured and used in a manner that could get you banned. These two are no different than IS and both of these tools can be configured to do some level of automation. Yet, when someone posts about either of those tools we don't get a dozen uninformed morons jumping up and down making a lot of noise.

Here is the risk assessment for me.... I have been two boxing on two different sets of toons for many months using InnerSpace. I have also used Keyclone and HKN. I have had no problems with any of these solutions. Warden could detect any and all of these tools in use with WoW. If Blizzard has any problem with me or the dozens of other guys using IS to multi-box, they would have banned/warned/suspended us months ago.

-j

[zanthor]

Going from background to forground with any window of any resolution is instantaneous. So absurdly fast in fact, that last night my camera's happened to be so well aligned I was trying to figure out why it didn't work... when in fact it was switching, the ONLY info changing on the screen that my eyes could notice was the NAME of the toons...

5ms swaps are the average in shattrah on my quad core...

[Lax]

Thanks Phara for being respectful -- even if you disagree (whether you do or not it's your own business) it is nice to see that someone can hold a rational conversation without throwing random insults.

Steph:
Who wrote this or that extension that got people banned is pretty immaterial to me. Lax wrote IS making it a platform for anything else people wanted to do. There is an inherent risk to having an open platform, people do things with them and it fires back on the platforms reputation. Considering that Lax wrote ISXwarden and helped MDY with their hiding from warden, I think it is safe to assume that Lax does not mind at all if his products are used against the rules of the respective game. ISXwarden's purpose is to hide rule violations from detection. Lax posted in various threads here, adamantly proclaiming that IS is clean and no higher risk than another software. What he does not mention and dutifully ignores is that he designed IS as cheating tool rather than as multiboxing tool and that the software has many capabilities that are plainly not needed for boxing.

Yes, a tool is a tool. The user is responsible for what he does with it. Just like the G15. Depending on how you use it, it is against Blizzards rules or not.
The difference is that Keyclone can by design not be used to break Blizzards rules, while IS was designed to break rules. By your argument, Windows is risky to use, and can have its reputation damaged by bots written for Windows (such as Glider). That must mean that Windows was written as a cheating tool?

Whether I "mind at all if [my] products are used against the rules of the respective game" is largely irrelevant. Let's suppose we're talking about a different game here. I'll pick something fictional for the sake of argument. Hello Kitty Island Adventure perhaps. I've never played HKIA, nor have I read through its EULA and/or ToS, but HKIA is naturally compatible with Inner Space without me touching it. People find they can simply "Add Game" from the IS menu and it works perfectly. What you're essentially suggesting is that I should be reading through the HKIA EULA and/or ToS to determine what uses of my software are within their rules, and I should be enforcing those rules? What if it's a Korean game without English translation, am I supposed to have a Korean handy to translate for me? Part of the point of an open platform that simply works with as many games as possible is so that I dont have to be the one enforcing the rules, or reading every game's EULA.

And yes, I will "adamantly proclaim" that Inner Space is "clean" in that it does not violate the Terms of Service for World of Warcraft, or any game that I'm aware of -- until you can show me the part of the Terms of Service that says it isn't, I don't think you should be claiming that it is NOT "clean". You claim that I "designed IS as a cheating tool rather than as multiboxing tool and that the software has many capabilities that are plainly not needed for boxing"... firstly, you are wrong. Inner Space was designed to replace WinEQ 2, which I don't think anyone can disagree that it is pretty much a multiboxing tool. And just so you're aware, keystroke replication was purposefully NOT implemented in WinEQ 2, because at the time I considered that to be "crossing the line". Clearly in hindsight, I should have implemented it then, but it was not until years later that it was determined to be within the rules. Back on point, in order to implement things like Picture-in-Picture better than WinEQ 2's implementation, I decided to implement a scripting language. Then I came to the realization that by allowing Inner Space to be extensible, I would be making the most powerful in-game platform for development available anywhere. While you and others may take that as "it's designed to be used for cheating", some of the first things I did with it was implement a Ventrilo overlay and a Teamspeak overlay and various other uses. Oddly enough, those are plainly NOT needed for multiboxing. That is because ... Inner Space is NOT specifically a multi-boxing tool, that is just one of many uses. In fact, you can use our new in-game Ventrilo GUI while you multi-box, all free stuff you can do with Inner Space (which as has been pointed out, is itself not free). So yes, you are absolutely right that it "has capabilities not needed for multi-boxing". However, as I have been demonstrating, it does, by design, have all of the capabilities needed for multi-boxing.

Also, eqjoe is old and has alzheimers or something ;) (sorry Joe I'm about to debunk your post that was intended to be supportive). I will explain something that people may not realize. Inner Space was around before WoW went retail. Someone made ISXWoW, and a number of people used it for a number of months before Blizzard implemented Warden. ISXWoW users started getting banned a few months later. I was not getting involved, because that's not my bag, baby. I started working on ISXWarden after a few months when it became clear that the people working on ISXWoW were not capable of protecting the people using it, and the bans from ISXWoW even then had people worried and not wanting to try Inner Space for legitimate purposes.

Warden was labelled spyware after Greg Hoglund, from WoW!Sharp, made a big fuss over it after WoW!Sharp users were getting the hell banned out of them without any clue how to stop it, and he made a tool called Governor which he claimed could see what Warden was doing. I defended Blizzard against his ridiculous claims (http://onwarden.blogspot.com/2007/07/privacy-and-you.html ), and I could only have done that because, yes, I have reverse engineered Warden. Without my expert opinion -- and I don't have to be self-proclaimed expert on that, but I know you will take it as such -- the only available opinion of whether Warden is spyware, is from a real self-proclaimed expert who has been selling his book based on controversy he for the most part made up. Then the EFF and others took up the cause. I don't think there is any current argument claiming that Warden is spyware, other than from the uninformed masses. Really, it's not much different in that respect than all of the uninformed talk here about Inner Space. I've already shown that Hoglund's argument is farce or hiding the truth, yet the claims still get made.

Also, with regards to whether Inner Space is going to get you banned or not, I will say that when you launch World of Warcraft, a thing known as SCAN.DLL does some scanning before you even log in. Its main purpose (as I understand it) is to find keyloggers and trojans in order to try to prevent people from falling victim to the most popular traps. Another thing it does is scan for various known hacks and cheats, in order to provide a nice way of suggesting to the user to make the decision to NOT use those hacks or cheats. If they decide that use of Inner Space alone is worthy of a ban, and people are using it for a legitimate purpose such as multi-boxing, Ventrilo overlay, in-game AIM or IRC, etc, they would be very likely to check for Inner Space as part of the SCAN.DLL scanning process. They are not looking to do a "gotcha" and ban people who are not doing anything wrong, and that includes multi-boxing -- they have already said that multi-boxing is okay. If you think they are just going to up and ban people for doing something that would appear to most people as being legitimate in itself, I would say you're off your rocker. If you hadn't heard of ISXWarden or ISXWoW, or bots used for Inner Space, you wouldn't even know to be making these silly arguments against Inner Space. And I'm not even the one promoting those things.

[Crucial]

Lax - could you do us all a favour and press Blizzard to OK Innerspace in whatever capacity is acceptable to them so that we don't have to feel like our accounts are at risk if we so much as load it up. The only opinion that matters to me on this topic is Blizzards, as I already know from using the product what it is technically capable of...

[zanthor]

Lax - could you do us all a favour and press Blizzard to OK Innerspace in whatever capacity is acceptable to them so that we don't have to feel like our accounts are at risk if we so much as load it up. The only opinion that matters to me on this topic is Blizzards, as I already know from using the product what it is technically capable of...Blizzard as a general rule won't approve anything. This is their safety net, and I can guarantee that this policy won't change. The approval KeyClone has gotten has all been with disclaimers attached, and it's an anomoly that it has been granted even that much of a blessing, no other tool has been cited by name.

not Octopus.
not AutoHotKey
not HotKeyNet

What blizzard has stated, time and again, is that one action has to equal one action, and that as long as it's not automation, it's fine.

[Crucial]

Lax - could you do us all a favour and press Blizzard to OK Innerspace in whatever capacity is acceptable to them so that we don't have to feel like our accounts are at risk if we so much as load it up. The only opinion that matters to me on this topic is Blizzards, as I already know from using the product what it is technically capable of...Blizzard as a general rule won't approve anything. This is their safety net, and I can guarantee that this policy won't change. The approval KeyClone has gotten has all been with disclaimers attached, and it's an anomoly that it has been granted even that much of a blessing, no other tool has been cited by name.

not Octopus.
not AutoHotKey
not HotKeyNet

What blizzard has stated, time and again, is that one action has to equal one action, and that as long as it's not automation, it's fine.
Given the complexity of what you can do with Innerspace and the scripting capabilties you are probably right, they will never officially give it a blessing. I'd be nice to just have some assurance from them that Warden won't pick it up and flag us for the next ban wave later down the road you know?

[zanthor]

Given the complexity of what you can do with Innerspace and the scripting capabilties you are probably right, they will never officially give it a blessing. I'd be nice to just have some assurance from them that Warden won't pick it up and flag us for the next ban wave later down the road you know? I agree, and on the same note I don't think they will ever grant that sort of knowledge either.

[Nmagrig]

How would a mere mortal like me be able to ask blizzard if this program is okay for use. I am looking at it and I do use keyclone. However with what IS can do, it would vastly up my game alot. However I do see where Rob is coming from with his arguements. At the same time, I see were Lax is coming from as well.

I believe the only way to end this discussion is to have a post from blizz giving us the do's and dont's of using this program. I am not savy enough to script it to bot so botting wont be a problem for me :D. However if it can get me banned then I agree with Rob. If not...sign me up.

[zanthor]

I believe the only way to end this discussion is to have a post from blizz giving us the do's and dont's of using this program. I am not savy enough to script it to bot so botting wont be a problem for me :D. However if it can get me banned then I agree with Rob. If not...sign me up. Customer service forums is your best bet, though Blizzards stance has always been not to approve software, as discussed elsewhere, Keyclone is the ONLY solution to get the nod other than "as long as 1 action = 1 action".

[jurence]

Lax - could you do us all a favour and press Blizzard to OK Innerspace in whatever capacity is acceptable to them so that we don't have to feel like our accounts are at risk if we so much as load it up. The only opinion that matters to me on this topic is Blizzards, as I already know from using the product what it is technically capable of...

innerspace has my 35/year if it is green light

[Xzin]

Why can't KC swap as fast as IS?

[Lax]

Why can't KC swap as fast as IS?Well without speaking for any other product in particular: IS is able to do some cool things that others are unable to do by acting as a layer between the game and the operating system. Picture-in-Picture is a good example of one of those things, as all it is, is interaction with the operating system.

[Nmagrig]

How do you get Keyclone to work with Windowsnapper? Could you give a write up of how you do that.

[Wilbur]

How do you get Keyclone to work with Windowsnapper? Could you give a write up of how you do that.

No offense, but have you even read this thread?

That or your sense of humour is a plateau above mine.

[dbick]

Ok so lets just say that IS is welcomed by the multi-boxing community and allot of us start to use it. What happens when a random anti- Mulit-Boxing idiot finds out that us MBer's are using a program that can be (albeit loosely) associated with a program that was at one time used to cheat? Do we really need that kind of heat? I am trying to be repectfull to Lax since I used his programs during my Everquest days and I loved it, however, are we ready to defend the next wave of daliy forum complaints over the use of IS on the Blizzard forums?

Everytime I visit the Blizzard forums and see yet another anti-multiboxing thread I cringe, I have been around long enough to know that with Blizzard the squeaky wheel gets the grease and I have the fear that someday they just might listen to those jealous idiots and take MB'ing away from us. Will Lax be able to educate the thousands of idiots that we are not cheating if we use IS?

[Nmagrig]

How do you get Keyclone to work with Windowsnapper? Could you give a write up of how you do that.

No offense, but have you even read this thread?

That or your sense of humour is a plateau above mine.

No I am just a a plateau or two lower then you in the script/coding department. I dont know what anything he posted means or even where to put it.

And lets face it, there are alot of people who are gonna be in the same boat as me where we see this stuff and its like a foriegn language to us. For this program to build its customer base sadly its gonna take everyones acceptance of it to get it up and going to the mainstream. So teach me oh great ones :D.

[zanthor]

Ok so lets just say that IS is welcomed by the multi-boxing community and allot of us start to use it. What happens when a random anti- Mulit-Boxing idiot finds out that us MBer's are using a program that can be (albeit loosely) associated with a program that was at one time used to cheat? Very good point, everyone should stop using AutoHotKey because it is widely used as a fishing bot.
No I am just a a plateau or two lower then you in the script/coding department. I dont know what anything he posted means or even where to put it.

And lets face it, there are alot of people who are gonna be in the same boat as me where we see this stuff and its like a foriegn language to us. For this program to build its customer base sadly its gonna take everyones acceptance of it to get it up and going to the mainstream. So teach me oh great ones :D.I'll be working on documentation for the lesser technically skilled in the near immediate future. I'll also be working on my scripts to be more configurable with less work. Once I'm done it should be a matter of download the zip file, unzip it, edit one file and answer a half dozen questions, and then you are up and running.

Until then, I have to let these cries for help fall on deaf ears, I've got a bit of real life to deal with during the week, so can't put a significant amount of time into it til the weekends.

[Nmagrig]

Zanthor for President!

Well maybe in like 2016

[zanthor]

Zanthor for President!

Well maybe in like 2016I'm a tyranical asshole who really just demands things be done my way... besides, I'm far too profane to be in politics.

[moosejaw]

Zanthor for President!

Well maybe in like 2016I'm a tyranical asshole who really just demands things be done my way... besides, I'm far too profane to be in politics.Works for me. At least I know what I am getting when I vote for you.