The Days of Pure Shaman DPS Are Numbered

[Lyonheart]

n/a

[Lyonheart]

I'm leveling a druid in my oddball team atm. I just want to know if a warlock or druid would be better. The druid brings more as far as utility I think, combat rez, normal rez, group buff ( motw), innervate. root ( can cc inside now ) sleep as well. The AEs that druids have now seem nice as well. SO I am leaning toward Paly-3shaman-druid. If i find out Locks make a BIG difference I will have one of those waiting at 70 as well ( before wotlk )


EDIT: How did my "reply" get put at the top of this thred?

[Flight]

To put this into context, I was originally going to make this post as a thread Necromancy reply to one of Vynds posts : http://dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=3060.


Thread Necromancy for the win \o/ Seriously, I found this an interesting post - plus there is more than one reason for bumping this.

First a shameless self hype - I was pretty early on the Pallie / Shaman synergy, in terms of the OP time line. Heres a record of my setting up my Pallie / Shaman / 'lock PvE team. in June 07. Back then Xzin ruled
the roost with his Priest / 4 Mage setup and he didnt use the co-ordinated key broadcasting; he was using broadcast mouse for most of his boxing, with a gazillion hot bars all over the screen. Like everyone else,
I've gone on to roll 5 x Shaman and multiple other teams, so I understand fully jusy how much multiple Shaman have always brought to the party.



My early 5 box blog here : My PvE 5 Box Blog ('http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=465&')




So why am I bringing this up now ? Well like Sam D, I've been boxing in Everquest since the game was launched in '99; I 6 boxed and I was
also in one of the top end game raiding guilds . So, while I'm particularly weak on a number of this sites and personnels boxing strengths - eg PvP - I understand
very well class synergy. Synergy. Thats what this post is all about.




I believe the day of pure Shaman DPS in teams is coming to an end in WotLK.




Now, woah there cowboy. I'm not saying multiple Shaman won't still be strong. What I am saying is that just Shaman for your DPS is going to
be so far from optimum, that to stick with it will be pure lazy and incompetent. While we take stick from people who don't realize what a
challenge boxing can be, one thing this community is not, is lazy or incompetent. We have not begun to see this yet, but what we have is a distorted
picture due to having lvl 51 talents available to us at. What we will have to deal with is :

i) Stat diminuation from lvl 70-80 (eg unless your stats increase your crit rate etc will actually fall as you lvl).

ii) Other classes getting their DPS increased while Shaman DPS gets relatively decreased from lvl 70-80

iii) Buff / debuffs aimed at multiple class setups coming much more to the fore.


Blizzard have said they want all classes DPS in the same ballpark. What they are moving towards in WotLK is more of an Everquest like class system, in terms of huge synergies and classes enhancing each others damage much more than in past times. Previously, lets be honest here, Shaman DPS has been overpowered. Not so in the new expansion. Shaman damage will be relatively reduced, while all other classes are getting a boost, some of them massively so. With the smallest amount of theorycrafting you can see that substituting in 2-3 other classes in a one party setup can increase the teams DPS by 40-50%. Same goes for a raid setup where if you introduce just one of a number of classes and you can prolly increase your DPS by over 60%. We will see solo players like Sam and Prepared completing the end game raids in WotLK (theres nothing of the difficulty of Sunwell etc). But only if they aren't lazy and stick with pure Shaman teams


Just as a closer, here is an indication of how much is going to change in WotLK (found this linked from FoH). Warlock Voidwalker pet can achieve stats greater than player tanks and tanking Illidan :

http://www.wowinsider.com/2008/10/23/voidwalker-tanks-illidan-almost/

Quote of a respone to that :

atl ('http://www.wowinsider.com/profile/2310396/') said...
His
Voidy was week. And he missed to keep full time talented Health Funnel. He prolly missed stamina gear, for fight like this is advising lock to
get over 20K HP and use armor elixirs/pots and armor enchants in places where stamina is unavailable. Mine is 30k without Demonic
Empowerment and with all talents and armor have 84.25% Physical Damage mitigation without inspiration, ~86% with inspiration and 36K HP each
munite for 20 secs. Aggro generation with manually placed 4 torments and 1 suffering during empowerment is 5K TPS.
Tanked Brutallus with 8 healers on it (No slashes at all to raid when use pet, only 2 players dies from burn on 3 mins fight). 2 Palas used flash chains instead Holy
Light chains. Crits hurted - aka 13K after the mitigation during the stomp, but the healers managed.
GL any player tank to reach this stats.

All previous theorycrafting goes out of the window with WotLK. You heard it here first - SYNERGY !!

[shaeman]

What I am saying is that just Shaman for your DPS is going to
be so far from optimum, that to stick with it will be pure lazy and incompetent.

I don't agree with this statement at all. Teams are a personal choice - because you don't happen to have the current Flavour of the month team makes you neither lazy or incompetent.

For me a successful team meets the following criteria - can you achieve what you want to achieve with the team you have and do you enjoy playing it.

Of course having 5 of one class leaves you very vulnerable to being hit by the nerf bat (resulting in an unplayable team). I've taken precautions by having multiple 70's of different classes, and a fair amount of 60's of another class should this happen.

[Kulzor]

I believe you're right. As far as caster dps goes, having a Boomkin, Shaman, and Mage together give more synergy.

The boomkin will give +5% spell damage, and +3% spell haste.
The shaman gives spell power, mana regen, and spell haste, plus elemental oath for increased crit for all casters on occasion.
The mage buffs the shaman with +3% spell crit, which in turn helps on the elemental oath.

A pally tank adds great synergy with mana regen, and gaining from the spell damage buffs, as would most healer classes (perhaps a pally healer the most due to the crit buffs?).

I'm close to this with my group, but I love my hunter too much to drop her, and like the rolling hots on the druid as well, though this one is less important for the way I spam spells.

[wizofid]

Well I sure hate to hear this since I am new to multi-boxing and my first team (1 pally + 4 shaman) hit 54 last night. I suppose my crisis will be when my team hits 62 (thats when i could swap in my 62 mage that has been idling for years) and at again at 70 because at that point i could swap out any of the shammies with some of my other 70's (druid, lock, priest). I will say from the esthetic I would be very unhappy to lose the identical look of the team members, and their near identical names. Not to mention that the complexities of all those classes would be pretty overwhelming. I suppose if you had a "debuff target" key for each, and a "ranged attack" key and an "instant attack" key you could set each class to contribute its own stuff to the mix.

I am really hoping that the 30-40 percent hit was an exageration.

[Flight]

I believe you're right. As far as caster dps goes, having a Boomkin, Shaman, and Mage together give more synergy.

The boomkin will give +5% spell damage, and +3% spell haste.
The shaman gives spell power, mana regen, and spell haste, plus elemental oath for increased crit for all casters on occasion.
The mage buffs the shaman with +3% spell crit, which in turn helps on the elemental oath.

A pally tank adds great synergy with mana regen, and gaining from the spell damage buffs, as would most healer classes (perhaps a pally healer the most due to the crit buffs?).

I'm close to this with my group, but I love my hunter too much to drop her, and like the rolling hots on the druid as well, though this one is less important for the way I spam spells.

Good post and great points. But they are actually some of the lesser buffs, although they all stack and are significant.. I did some math with various set ups last night. Don't have it to hand, but off the top of my head heres just three significant abilities :


Druid : Not only the 5% and 3% buff you define from Moonkin Form Aura, but a massive 15% damage increase to Arcane, Frost, Fire, Nature and Shadow Damage the target takes from Earth and Moon

Warlock : Curse of Elements, huge resist all debuff (don't underestimate resist debuffs, this is HUGELY significant) and increase all magic damage the target takes by 10%

DK : Increases all Magic Damage taken by 13% from Ebon Plaguebringer

(ps DK is, and will remain, OP; this is Blizzs new baby class)



Those are just 3 off the top of my head; there are a number of others. Of course, as they stack, the damage increase rises exponentially. You better believe that the game is designed and balanced with this taken into consideration.

I would suggest that for an optimum 5 man boxed PvE team now, it would be negligent to not include a Druid and a 'lock. For the guys who are boxing more than a team this really is a no brainer.


I honestly don't think this will become apparent until lvl 80 and heroic instances. Looking ahead I'm going to do some tests with Pallie (prot), 'lock, Boomkin, Shammy (resto) and Mage. I'm going to go on at end game and test a DK tank and Priest in place of Shaman. Theres another huge strength of the multi-class team I am suggesting - cc.

Note I am not saying the days of all Shaman teams are over. What I am saying is they will not rule the roost in DPS any more. We should at least theory craft through multiple class set ups. And, of course, we need to take into account stacking issues and which of the buffs work on base dmg output and which will work on gross output.


To underline again, I'm not saying Shaman DPS is dead - I am saying it won't rule the roost any more and I'd really appreciate input from folks on class synergies. I'm particularly looking at PvE. This ISN'T a bash the Shammy thread, afterall I am running a Shammy setup myself. This is a lets look ahead and see what we can do now with a multi class setup thread.

[merujo]

Just want to add:

- im yet to see how will 5 shamans work at lvl80
- nice theory and all, but theres also PvP, and in PvP, im sorry, shamans are the true victorinox. i might roll another team for heroics, but theres hex and lava burst to be analized first...dunno...
- voids tanking while getting healed by 9 healers ? 10 ? btw, u just need a pet with enough HP pool, i dont know how warlock and hunter talents affect that, since i never played any of both past lvl 30, my guess is that this patch, along with new talents made this possible. how long can a pet survive at lvl80 against wtv boss ? don't forget this: in this patch not only the boss's lost 30% hp, they also deal less physical dmg (-30%?)

anyways, only time will tell @80 how it will be

[Flight]

Just want to add:

- im yet to see how will 5 shamans work at lvl80
- nice theory and all, but theres also PvP, and in PvP, im sorry, shamans are the true victorinox. i might roll another team for heroics, but theres hex and lava burst to be analized first...dunno...
- voids tanking while getting healed by 9 healers ? 10 ? btw, u just need a pet with enough HP pool, i dont know how warlock and hunter talents affect that, since i never played any of both past lvl 30, my guess is that this patch, along with new talents made this possible. how long can a pet survive at lvl80 against wtv boss ? don't forget this: in this patch not only the boss's lost 30% hp, they also deal less physical dmg (-30%?)

anyways, only time will tell @80 how it will beGood post. To be clear again, I am useless and inexperienced at PvP. This is pure PvE I am examining.


On the pet tanking thing, I'm not including that as any kind of strength of this team. What I have done is hold it up as an example of how much things are changing and how much we need to do our theorycrafting all over from a fresh whiteboard. As an aside, I'm a huge fan of 'lock crowd control using the Succubus. It is extremely reliable, if you have it set up properly. Much stronger and brings more benefit than either the DPS pet or the Void IMO.


You do have to think, though, what could possibly stand against 36 of those Voidwalkers in the hands of Sam or prep 8o


/asideOff

[Schwarz]

Saying that Pure Shaman DPS is dead or numbered is pure speculation. I would like to speculate that it isn't dead.



edit: I don't think i could have said it better




http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/icons/24x24/shaman.jpg Shaman (Skills List ('http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?page=660') / Talent Calc. (9095) ('http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?shaman'))
Elemental tree pre-75
Chill out. Nobody said Elemental was useless until 75. All I said was that your damage wasn't quite as high as other ranged dps at 70. Your ability to level, do instances or even raid at 70 aren't really compromised. (Source ('http://blue.mmo-champion.com/8/11676600515-so-wait-a-second-useless-spec-till-75.html'))



I am convinced shaman are a trash killing machines. Staggering thunderstorms makes melee easy. Grounding totems makes casters simple. If/when they try to buff our AOE damage things will get even easier. I would say the only way Shaman groups are dead in the water is if they start making a huge ammount of nature immune mobs. Until that point I think they are going to be fine. Another thing I would like to raise is that if shaman are doing 1/2 the damage of the druids/mages/warlocks they will certainly get buffed at some point.

[Yagamoth]

Blizz stated somewhere (on the bluepost tracker at mmo champion...) that pets are going to be viable offtanks. Since we've got the new talents now already and the instances are much easier, this is possible.

I'm amazed :D

[Flight]

Saying that Pure Shaman DPS is dead or numbered is pure speculation. I would like to speculate that it isn't dead.



edit: I don't think i could have said it better






http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/icons/24x24/shaman.jpg Shaman (Skills List ('http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?page=660') / Talent Calc. (9095) ('http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?shaman'))
Elemental tree pre-75
Chill out. Nobody said Elemental was useless until 75. All I said was that your damage wasn't quite as high as other ranged dps at 70. Your ability to level, do instances or even raid at 70 aren't really compromised. (Source ('http://blue.mmo-champion.com/8/11676600515-so-wait-a-second-useless-spec-till-75.html'))



I am convinced shaman are a trash killing machines. Staggering thunderstorms makes melee easy. Grounding totems makes casters simple. If/when they try to buff our AOE damage things will get even easier. I would say the only way Shaman groups are dead in the water is if they start making a huge ammount of nature immune mobs. Until that point I think they are going to be fine. Another thing I would like to raise is that if shaman are doing 1/2 the damage of the druids/mages/warlocks they will certainly get buffed at some point.

To be clear :


I haven't said Shaman DPS is dead. Please don't take the thread off in directions it doesn't need to go by suggesting things have been said, that haven't. I haven't said Shaman will do substantially less DPS than the other classes; what I have said is stacking buffs and effects from a series of other classes will improve the DPS of the whole party by significant amounts.

To be succinct the point is a group with 4 Shaman in it WILL do substantially less damage than a mixed group. To my mind that is beyond debate.

The extensive utilites other classes bring aside from DPS , not least being crowd control, buffs, party summon and party teleport are just bonuses.




And, again, this is a thread about PvE.

[Tehtsuo]

Blizz stated somewhere (on the bluepost tracker at mmo champion...) that pets are going to be viable offtanks. Since we've got the new talents now already and the instances are much easier, this is possible.

I'm amazed :D

Viable in Blizzard's eyes and viable in raid leader's eyes are two very different things. Anyone who's tried to get a ret paladin into a raid in the past 6 months (pre patch 3.0 of course) can tell you that.

As for shaman teams, I agree with you that our synergy won't stack as much for pve as it used to - Totem of Wrath is a good arguing point there. However, Tremor Totems remain a tool that many multiboxers find so valuable they can't go without. I've thought about rolling a new team many times, and even with Will of the Forsaken and a trinket I still feel that I'd be dealing with some major frustration in pvp. I like to experience both worlds with my team, so for me a minor reduction in the damage viability of shaman synergy is worthwhile in order to keep my pvp strengths.

And let's face it, min/maxing is for progression raids, and how many of us are using our teams in those? Not many I would wager.

[shaeman]

[EDIT: Decide to go with a more constructive post rather than pull up use of derogatory terms like incompetent,lazy and negligent]

Is max dps the most defining factor of a group?

I think the reason 5 shamans were so popular wasn't just because of the DPS they brought but also to the their other abilities. They could all heal each other. Could interrupt casters with earthshocks, could ground ranged spells. Could crowd control mobs through the use of stone claw, so I would say that a good group would require all these aspects. (Also bear in mind that they gain the hex spell in wotlk, so even more CC options).

Personally I like the idea of converting a 4 shammy 1 pally team into a 1 pally, 3 shammies and a moonkin druid.

All can heal, all take a hit, all can buff, all can res, 4 have pets to bring to the table, the shaman and moonkin have viable crowd control (entangling roots, and I'm figuring hex will be okay).

[Kulzor]

Teht, I try to min/max everything I can about my team... I do it in a PvE sense for running heroics, but I want every bit of damage output I can get. (Not dps, as Recount charts don't always correlate the two like they should...)

Also, if you want AoE monsters, look at a group of hunters. Paladin tanking, hunters volley, then multishot to finish off groups. My elemental shaman does much better dps on trash fights with 3+ mobs, but the hunter continues to blow him away on those as well.

I'd replace my hunter with my 70 boomkin that sits on the sidelines in a heartbeat if she (and her buffs) would cause the group to do more damage - but the hunter does so much more damage (on the order of 30% to 45% more damage than either the shaman or mage do), that the druid buff wouldn't make up for it. Too bad it costs $25 to move characters to other accounts or I'd just try it to see what happens.

[Flight]

If you want a reasoned, grown up discussion on the merits of various classes that would be great.

Perhaps drop the use of emotive and derogatory terms such as negligent, lazy and incompetent for anyone who isn't going to pick the exact team you deem to be best.
You know I had decided not to respond any more, to see what other peoples points of view were and let others evolve the discussion. But this needs a response.

You are totally misrepresenting me in your statement , 'anyone who isn't going to pick the exact team you deem to be best'. I agree with your post, though; at one point my choice of language was poor and, as its been referred to by you, just editing it would be unfair. I regret saying it and I apologize if it was offensive. As I have said, I am one of the people who has boxed extensively with 5 Shaman.



There is nothing I would like more than a grown up discussion on the merits of various classes and the damage increasing synergies they can bring to a party post 3.02 :)

[Schwarz]

Flight you are making your mind up on stuff that hasn't happened yet. Can we level to 80? Are you sure that






To be succinct the point is a group with 4 Shaman in it WILL do substantially less damage than a mixed group. To my mind that is beyond debate.

To be clear: Unless you have a magic ball you can't make statements like this. And what is substantially less damage? If we are talking about PVE you need to factor in other things besides damage.

Will your other group have the surviablity that a shaman has?

I would think a "normal" team (1 tank 1 healer 3 dps) would have a hard time keeping up with the damage of a 5 dps team.

[Kulzor]

I would think a "normal" team (1 tank 1 healer 3 dps) would have a hard time keeping up with the damage of a 5 dps team.This is an obvious truth. In PvP especially, a 5-shaman team will outperform the mixed group with a tank and healer. It's why PvP should be discussed separately, they are two totally different animals.

However, long term thinking, I'd rather think more about goals like running heroics and/or smaller raids at 80, than of the leveling process to 80, or the normal instances at 80. Blizzard's already made it clear that they intend non-heroics to be "easier." While I haven't played a group at 80, I wouldn't be willing to bet all my future time assuming that a tank won't be needed. (Nor that a hunter pet will tank a heroic, given Blizzard's comments.)

For a "normal" instancing team (one with a tank and a healer), you've got three dps slots to fill. The synergy between most of these are excellent, while two of the same will just override each other:
Elemental Shaman
Warlock
Balance Druid
Mage

I'm not sure of the damage output or debuffs a shadow priest casts to know if they fit in well there or not. I need to find out if the debuff from Earth and Moon stacks with Curse of Elements... If they don't, then a mage's group buffs may be too minor to include.

Edit: Earth and Moon does NOT stack with Curse of Elements. The spell penetration from CoE gives it a slight edge on bosses, apparently, but the warlock won't be giving the spell damage and haste to the rest of the casters.

[Schwarz]

At level 70 a 5 shaman team is as much of a PVE team as a PVP team.

Edit:



Here is the flexablity of the 5 shaman team.

This guy is a pansy and I can kill him before he kills me. 5 dps out there

Ok I need a tank b/c this guy hits hard. Ok I will drop my earth elementals. Still have 5 dps out there.

Ok i need a tank and I need to heal that tank b/c this guy hits really hard. Ok I will drop my earth elementals and make my main heal them. Still have 4 dps out there.

[Flight]

Flight you are making your mind up on stuff that hasn't happened yet. Can we level to 80? Are you sure that










To be succinct the point is a group with 4 Shaman in it WILL do substantially less damage than a mixed group. To my mind that is beyond debate.

To be clear: Unless you have a magic ball you can't make statements like this. And what is substantially less damage? If we are talking about PVE you need to factor in other things besides damage.

Will your other group have the surviablity that a shaman has?

I would think a "normal" team (1 tank 1 healer 3 dps) would have a hard time keeping up with the damage of a 5 dps team.I'll reply to one point, for clarity. I'm not pushing a 'normal' team. I am promoting multi class synergy.

It can be a normal team, as you say, for running all heroics, or an all caster team.

[shaeman]

If you want a reasoned, grown up discussion on the merits of various classes that would be great.

Perhaps drop the use of emotive and derogatory terms such as negligent, lazy and incompetent for anyone who isn't going to pick the exact team you deem to be best.
You know I had decided not to respond any more, to see what other peoples points of view were and let others evolve the discussion. But this needs a response.

You are totally misrepresenting me in your statement , 'anyone who isn't going to pick the exact team you deem to be best'. I agree with your post, though; at one point my choice of language was poor and, as its been referred to by you, just editing it would be unfair. I regret saying it and I apologize if it was offensive. As I have said, I am one of the people who has boxed extensively with 5 Shaman.



There is nothing I would like more than a grown up discussion on the merits of various classes and the damage increasing synergies they can bring to a party post 3.02 :)

And I apologise on my addition of " 'anyone who isn't going to pick the exact team you deem to be best'." That was unnecessary, although added as it appeared you had already decided on two of the dpsers with your comment regarding it being negligent not to include them.

I was editing my post to make it more constructive when you replied, so I'm glad you quoted the original so the thread still makes sense.

[magwo]

Interesting thread. However, I think that in the right hands, hex will be a BIG factor at level 80, ESPECIALLY in PvP. If handled with great skill, and in combination with strong AOE in elemental, this has the potential to turn multiple shaman teams into powerhouses in PvP, being able to tackle great numbers of opponents and opening up many opportunities for kiting abuse.



Edit: To summarize the elemental shaman at level 80: A tanking mage with CC, mail, shield, heals, self-res, res, fear immunity, partial spell immunity, aoe slow, aoe knockback, instant-cast travel form. You give up a lot of these strengths to make a multi-class team that is harder to play, but with higer dps output.

[badashh]

As far as having a Boomkin or a lock in your group, doesn't earth and moon negate Curse of Elements? Or do they stack so to speak? Thanks.

[Ellay]

I don't think they stack, the warlock buff seems to be much better. If they do stack which I didn't notice in my ZA run, the CoE overrides it as it is more powerful.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

As far as having a Boomkin or a lock in your group, doesn't earth and moon negate Curse of Elements? Or do they stack so to speak? Thanks.A very good point. We discussed this in a bit more detail in this thread. ('http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=12576') Though it should be noted that the effects the OP mentioned all are different auras.

[Flight]

As far as having a Boomkin or a lock in your group, doesn't earth and moon negate Curse of Elements? Or do they stack so to speak? Thanks.A very good point. We discussed this in a bit more detail in this thread. ('http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=12576') Though it should be noted that the effects the OP mentioned all are different auras.




Note some numbers in that thread have been subject to change. Earth and
Moon, for example, was a 3 point 13% talent and is now a 5 point 15%
talent. Personally, I think the resist debuff of Curse of Elements offers even more to the party than the damage increase. And, of course, while Earth and Moon wouldn't stack, Boomkin would still bring Moonkin Form Aura. There are some very strong Boomkin builds that don't take Earth and Moon or Starfall.


Very good threads on 'locks and Boomkins over at EJ on their Class Mechanics forum : http://elitistjerks.com/f31/


Threres a good thread on 3.02 Elem Shaman with a lot of good hard lvl 80 numbers by reputable players, also : http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t27016-elemental_shaman_-_wotlk_talents_discussion/

[valkry]

The Dk magic dmg debuff, the earth and moon debuff and the curse of elements..do not stack.

Elemental oath and Moonkin aura...do not stack. The haste does with the crit though.

[Catamer]

I think the biggest nerf I've seen so far is the non-stacking +crit/+hit totem.
I used to run round being able to get 30% crit rating using lousy green gear and closer to 40-45% with good gear, add on top of it a +15% hit rating.
now with the same good gear I'm only getting 20-25% crit rating, lower than the crappy gear I used to use.
This was such an incredible nerf you can never underestimate it, we lost at least 12% crit and 12% hit right off the top.

Now add on top of the totem nerf the fact that you can't round robin heroism anymore and you are pretty much left with a so-so DPS or a so-so healer class.

Thanks to RAF i've started to look into other team setups.
I'm currently working a shaman+4xhunter team and this team seems to rock pretty nicely.
The shaman seems to be a nice fit for hunters and all I do is spam chain heal on the pets.
I did ramparts at 62-63 and blood furnace at 63 and only had one team wipe in the blood furnace over a one really bad pull ( mild bad pulls were not a problem )

I also have a priest+4xwarlocks team that is level 61. I'm going to see how they handle ramparts when they reach 62.

[Hachoo]

I'm not sure why anyone is saying shaman DPS is going to DECREASE from 70-80...In fact the devs have stated our damage is going to INCREASE more than most other classes, as we get one of our new primary DPS spells (lava burst) at 75.

Personally I chose 5 shamans for MANY reasons. PvP was a large one of them, the fact that they can PvP AND PvE is great, even without a paladin in the mix.

I really like my priest + 4 warlock team right now but when wotlk comes out im going to have to make a decision which team to go with for starters, and I still haven't decided yet. Need more playtime on my shamans since 3.0.2 to decide. Honestly I don't think shamans are going anywhere as the most popular 5 box class, and boxing a "mix" of classes really is only for a few people. Honestly I tried it and its more of a headache for me then I want, makes the game feel more like a job then a game :) So I think for people that just want to have fun, 5 shamans will still be near the top of the list.

[Schwarz]

A buddy of mine just dinged 70 with his 5 shaman team. They aren't very well geared (~400 sp). His old main was a warlock. He said bringing in a warlock brought his shamans DPS from 700 to around 1k. I am going to try to run a heroic today or tommorrow to see what my dps does when we include a warlock to the bunch.

Am I reading it correctly that if you wanted to switch out a dps you should include a warlock over a boomkin?

Has anyone tried any heroics with 5 mages or 5 warlocks? Ya gotta think that granted they might put out more dps than a shaman but can they survive as long as a shaman? (mail+shields seems to mitigate alot of damage)

[Rin]

I think Hachoo stated this well. Multiboxing multiple classes is only for certain people. Look around on the forums; you'll notice that only a few of us have hybrid composotions, and most of us who have mixed groups (more than 2 classes in our group) do it with 10 characters. Having all of one class is great for learning, fun, and "instant" gratification. You press 1 key, you get the same result 5 times. It makes macroing a lot nicer, and it's a great way to experiment with multiboxing. For someone new to multiboxing, I would strongly advise them to stay away from a giant mixed group; mainly because there's so much synergy required and I can't even count the number of hours (I'd guess around 30-40) I spent setting everything up, learning how to work with my characters, toying with agro, casting, and forcing them to work together as a team.

The original poster raises a good point though, and that's something that has been discussed here before - the viability of an all shaman team at level 80. It's mostly speculation now, but we are seeing tanks that are averaging 20k hps with blue gear. What this means is that we're going to see a shift in the way instances are dealt with, especially given the fact that Blizzard seems to be re-emphasizing the role of a tank especially in WoTLK. Will a 5 shaman team be viable? I don't know; from the looks of things I'd lean closer to saying no, rather than yes, only because warrior NPC types are surely going to be buffed up. I would imagine that 5 shamans could do instances with their burst dps, but I still think it may be a LOT more effective if a 5 shaman team put a tank class in the mix. Only time will tell if our theories hold true though.

Personally, I picked my 10 characters (4 of which are shaman, 2 pallys, 2 mages, 1 priest, 1 druid), to help support each other - especially in WoTLK. I could run ten shaman, but I don't think that would be very useful outside of pvp - in my opinion, there are major gains that can be accomplished by adding other classes into your group. Having mixed classes is not for everyone though, it can feel like more of a job (especially until you get familiar with it), than a fun experiment, but if you can endure it, the payout is sweet.

Cheers!

[Vyndree]

To be succinct the point is a group with 4 Shaman in it WILL do substantially less damage than a mixed group. To my mind that is beyond debate.

I would agree with this, particularly with caveat that the "ideal" dps is a single boxed mixed group. (since they can ACTUALLY maximize their dps thanks to individual focus on their characters)

Given the nuances of classes and whether or not they require an advanced DPS rotation, you logically COULD pull down their DPS enough due to poor micromanagement that a homogenized group would end up coming out on top thanks to simplification of the rotation. Not likely, but possible depending on the person and their "mad micro" or lack thereof. ;)

[Flight]

I'm not sure why anyone is saying shaman DPS is going to DECREASE from 70-80...In fact the devs have stated our damage is going to INCREASE more than most other classes, as we get one of our new primary DPS spells (lava burst) at 75.

Theres a lot of hard data, at lvl 80 and including our new abilities, in the previously mentioned thread here : http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t27016-elemental_shaman_-_wotlk_talents_discussion/p59/

The consensus is that Shaman DPS in no way backs what you are saying here. Quite the opposite.



Now this is conjecture. to an extent. Afterall, WotLK isn't even live yet. And at the end of the day theorycrafting is pure conjecture. What I do suggest is beyond question is that the previously mentioned simple Shaman DPS spell rotation will become a redundant with lava burst and that Shaman DPS will also become more reactive, based on crits etc This has always been one of the great strengths of Shamans and why they are so popular for boxing. Good boxers will be able to adapt to this, but the days of a simple LB, LB, LB, CL rotation will be a thing of the past.

[Crucial]

Not being one of those people who enjoy countless hours of setting up macros and configuring their setups with multiple classes and figuring out all synergy that goes with that. I do it to an extent, but only for what's necessary to get the job done. I already know that the first few 5 mans are totally doable in the beta. Worst case I've seen so far multiboxing with 5 shamans in the beta is some of the bosses are just hitting too hard or the fights are slightly more complex that requires some fancy footwork or clever thinking to overcome. Last boss of Nexus for example, you have to keep moving or you'll get too many debuffs stacking on you. So you have to tap your movement keys on all toons in between casting. More than likely the only major tweak necessary will be to roll a tank and subsitute one shaman where required (or overgear the instance) to overcome some of the ball blocks.

Do you really think it will ever be mandatory to have 3 or 4 different clases just to beat an instance(in the case of pve)? No way. Maximum dps is only relevant if thats your end goal or if its a requirement to beat the encounter, and last I checked we aren't talking about min/maxing for raid dps.

[Sarduci]

A buddy of mine just dinged 70 with his 5 shaman team. They aren't very well geared (~400 sp). His old main was a warlock. He said bringing in a warlock brought his shamans DPS from 700 to around 1k. I am going to try to run a heroic today or tommorrow to see what my dps does when we include a warlock to the bunch.

Am I reading it correctly that if you wanted to switch out a dps you should include a warlock over a boomkin?

Has anyone tried any heroics with 5 mages or 5 warlocks? Ya gotta think that granted they might put out more dps than a shaman but can they survive as long as a shaman? (mail+shields seems to mitigate alot of damage)If pets are suppose to be viable OT's, then 5 warlock teams should be fine.

[Dominian]

I belive i read that each rep faction gives out a tabard and when you wear that you will earn rep towards THAT singel faction even when in "another" dungeon, you will however earn abit less rep then you would normaly.

To able to do a instance once is enough for me since i most likley can choose the instances i like and feels easy enough and still earn the rep i like.

Im in my STRONGEST doubts that 5 mans and heroics will require you to synergy buffs.

I also been toying with the idea to change one shaman for a paladin but tbh it would only destroy the fun in bgs because the power of 5 feels insane compared to 4...

[Ughmahedhurtz]

Im in my STRONGEST doubts that 5 mans and heroics will require you to synergy buffs.I doubt they're gonna "require" buff/debuff synergy to complete heroics at 80. If they did that, they'd limit heroic groups to either all melee synergy groups or all DPS synergy groups, which would needlessly limit the valid PUG configurations and cause (more) discontent among the playerbase.