Will DK + 4 Shamans be more or less viable than Pally + 4 Shamans?

[knopstr]

I haven't seen a thread on this. If there is one, I apologize.

I'm currently running a 5 shaman team. I would love the ability to swap a tank in for fun and as it seems most people (not all) run a pally tank. I didn't receive a beta invite and as such have 0 exp with how well a DK tanks.

Accepting all comments and suggestions.

[Meeo]

I persoanlly did not play my DK in Beta that much, only up to 68, but based on the abilities there will be similar aspects, except i still find consecrate highly superior for multiple mob tanking, even in beta. But i havnt not viewed and of the recent changes to DK beta in the last few weeks.

[Svpernova09]

i haven't spent *a lot* of time in beta, but from what I did see DKs make pretty good tanks, I don't think it will really matter. A friend's DK was tanking Ramps / BF / UB / SP as well as my feral druid was at that level range 60-64ish. With the recent tank changes that went live (unlimited targets getting hit with Swipe / Thunderclap, plus the dmg boost to swipe) I don't think paladins are the end all be all tanks anymore. I've run my feral druid aoe tanking Ramps, BF, UB, SP, with no problems for my 3 shaman. Even before the tank changes went live I was still able to effectivly aoe tank 4 and 5 pulls.

[Ellay]

They have pushed very hard to make all 4 tanks viable in every aspect. I'd say you will succeed with any choice, it is better to choose which you enjoy more and fits your playstyle. All will have amazing aoe tanking / single target and ways to mitigate damage.

[Svpernova09]

They have pushed very hard to make all 4 tanks viable in every aspect. I'd say you will succeed with any choice, it is better to choose which you enjoy more and fits your playstyle. All will have amazing aoe tanking / single target and ways to mitigate damage./agree

the only thing that I do like about paladin tanks in aoe tanking more so than others, (and i'm a die hard feral druid > other tanks)Consecrate is essentially a DoT, whereas Druids still have to spam swipe and Warriors still have to spam Thunderclap. I'm not sure about thunderclap but I know they buffed Swipe damage to help keep huge threat running. Paladins definetely have an advantage here by being able to hit + judge while waiting to refresh consecration. But I do love not having to rely on mana to tank / tank well. As long as I have 1hp I'm still running strong lol.

[knopstr]

Good Point Ellay.

I guess what I was really looking for was for some feedback from the luck folks who've actually played the DK. I wanted to know what their thoughts were on whether they would switch to DK after having played pallys for so long or if DK's were just ok.

[Schwarz]

If all 4 tanks are able to do everything then doesn't it come down to what buffs you can give to your team. I think kings on everyone is far better than any other tank buff out there.

[Aradar]

They have pushed very hard to make all 4 tanks viable in every aspect. I'd say you will succeed with any choice, it is better to choose which you enjoy more and fits your playstyle. All will have amazing aoe tanking / single target and ways to mitigate damage.But I do love not having to rely on mana to tank / tank well. As long as I have 1hp I'm still running strong lol.

If you are running pally/4 shammies, you no longer have mana issues. I can now run full heroics without taking a drink thanks to some of the changes in the last patch, particulary, blessing of sanctuary, stacking mana totems and the new judgement system.

As for DK's, I know nothing about them but as mentioned above, consecrate is pretty awesome but add in holy shield and retribution aura, pallys have quite a bit of non offensive (you don't have to melee anything) damage dealing abilities making them very easy to use and hold aggro with on multiple mobs.


If all 4 tanks are able to do everything then doesn't it come down to what buffs you can give to your team. I think kings on everyone is far better than any other tank buff out there.

With kings now requiring 5 talent points as opposed to one before, most tanks are going to skip this.

[Lyonheart]

If all 4 tanks are able to do everything then doesn't it come down to what buffs you can give to your team. I think kings on everyone is far better than any other tank buff out there.

I don't see how any prot paly could take kings now, you miss better talents by taking it. It costs 5 points now 8( I do miss it though.

[Svpernova09]

If all 4 tanks are able to do everything then doesn't it come down to what buffs you can give to your team. I think kings on everyone is far better than any other tank buff out there.I hate they changed it to put 5 points to get the full 10% buff. Kings may be the best tank buff but the resistance from Mark of the Wild can be helpful at times. I think warriors got screwed out of that department, Commanding Shout? it is definitely not much.

[Bena]

I've played a bit with the DKs in beta.. they're ok imo but I won't
replace my pally with them. They require a bit of micro managment
due to the diseases, managing the CDs. They're fun when playing
single player but for boxing I still like my pally. Another thing
I noted when I tried single resto druid and holy priest healers, they
seemed to take in more damage than a warrior or a pally. With a
DK tanking I knew I had to spam the heals more than with other tanks.
This may have changed though..

[Aethon]

Will anyone else be multiboxing their DK's up through the starting area and to 60? I'll still have RaF, I'm sure others will as well.

[Svpernova09]

Will anyone else be multiboxing their DK's up through the starting area and to 60? I'll still have RaF, I'm sure others will as well.The RAF doesn't really matter for the DKs. You'll still need to do all the quests / finish the area to get all of your talent points caught up, but the good thing is you'll probably come out of the zone at 60/61. I did the zone as a single DK and came out at 58.

[Multibocks]

Im going to say no. Pallies are superior(still) to DKs in every way. Pallies vs Druids: yes swipe is now unlimited, HOWEVER, you have to be facing ALL targets. Pallies can just drop consecrate and not care. Pallies vs Warriors, this I dont know about anymore so I concede they may be on equal footing with new Thunderclap changes. Pallies vs DKs: Ok this one is a no brainer, DKs have seriously like 20 abilities and a castsequence like 1>2>3>4>5>1>3>4 which is ridiculous for a MBer, especially considering if certain abilities miss you gotta start over. Does that mean you can't MB a DK? No, but you group wont be as easy to MB as a Pally. I'm sure someone is going to go out there and try to prove me wrong, that's fine go get em Tiger. I'm talking about ease of game play and Paladins are so easy for MBing you can fall asleep and still have no one die. That said, the one thing I think is sweet about DKs is the Antimagic aura, well and they look badass.

[Shaden]

Will anyone else be multiboxing their DK's up through the starting area and to 60? I'll still have RaF, I'm sure others will as well.My RAF doesn't run out until Dec. 8th, so I'm not even going to bother buying WotLK for a good while after that. Also, I'm not all that eager to roll a DK on the day the x-pac is released and be one of the hundreds of DKs stampeding out of the starting gate. Doesn't appeal to me at all.

I've only been hearing lukewarm reactions to Death Knights, especially when it comes to multiboxing. Are they really not that viable?

[Hor]

I plan to multibox a DK, hopefully the RAF Summon will work so I can pull my level 60 group I've got waiting for affore mentioned DK into the starting area. I'm assuming it will work, but you never know. If not, then I'll just make 2DKs so I can get the triple XP. And as stated above, hopefully get them to 60-61 with the newbie quests. The main thing I find attractive about the DK for boxing is that you can lower spell resistance similar to a lock's curse without having to mix up your group too much. Add in the pets and some of the other abilities and you end up with a unique addition to your MB crew(s) that has a lot of potential. At any rate, I'm going to have access to 6 DKs on Day 1. So I'll probably make all that day, just to get them made/get names set, etc. I'm torn between Orc and Blood Elf. Both look good, and Orc's got some nice abilities. BE can silence, and that to me goes really well with a lot of DKs abilities/talents. An Unholy BE would be a nightmare for a caster lol. We'll see how things pan out, but I've got a horde of other toons sitting around that can be put to use as well, including a 61 warrior I can start tanking a team with if need be. And I'm levelling a second Paladin. So ... who knows. Viva la RAF!

[Multibocks]

I think your level 60 group will be slaughtered by elite npcs if you summon them to the DK starting area. They are a seperate faction AND they are "bad" npcs.

[Hor]

Hmm, you might have a point there. I'm still going to try it with one naked guy and see how it goes.

[Aethon]

I thought I was clear, I guess not. Multiboxing DK's as in 5 DK's. One for each account, if they all have to do the same quests anyway, might as well get the bonus XP until they're 60, right?

[Multibocks]

ok well then 5 Dks enjoy the non MBable quests in the starting area. Lots of phasing going on so they might be in different "phases" as well. Maybe hand leveling each through starting area and then grouping after might work better, I can't be sure as I didnt try it.

However 5 DKs might rape face in world pvp, they are pretty OP right now.

[Vyndree]

Reasons for rolling a pally in a shaman multiboxed group:
Pally benefits from melee totems.
Pally benefits from spell totems.
Pally benefits from mana totems.
Pally gives shaman wisdom buff.
Pally gives shaman judgement of wisdom.
Pally is weak to spells -- Shaman gives grounding totems.
Pally spams Holy Shield -- Shaman spams Lightning Bolt. Button synergy.
Pally casts (now instant) Avenger's Shield -- Shaman casts Chain Lightning. Button synergy.
Pally can tag mobs with consecrate for aoe totems (aoe totems, if they kill a mob 100% by themselves you do not get XP/credit)
Pally can respec holy and heal elemental shamans in PvP.

I originally rolled a warrior with my 4 elemental shamans, and swapped out the pally due to its synergy with shammies. That's not to say the warrior didn't work -- I was doing fine with the warrior even though it only had synergy with the melee totems and didn't give anything back to the shamans. However, pally synergy is just... BETTER. I have no doubt DK+shammy will be viable, but it certainly won't have as much cross-synergy as a prot pally.

[Rin]

Reasons for rolling a pally in a shaman multiboxed group:
Pally benefits from melee totems.
Pally benefits from spell totems.
Pally benefits from mana totems.
Pally gives shaman wisdom buff.
Pally gives shaman judgement of wisdom.
Pally is weak to spells -- Shaman gives grounding totems.
Pally spams Holy Shield -- Shaman spams Lightning Bolt. Button synergy.
Pally casts (now instant) Avenger's Shield -- Shaman casts Chain Lightning. Button synergy.
Pally can tag mobs with consecrate for aoe totems (aoe totems, if they kill a mob 100% by themselves you do not get XP/credit)
Pally can respec holy and heal elemental shamans in PvP.

I originally rolled a warrior with my 4 elemental shamans, and swapped out the pally due to its synergy with shammies. That's not to say the warrior didn't work -- I was doing fine with the warrior even though it only had synergy with the melee totems and didn't give anything back to the shamans. However, pally synergy is just... BETTER. I have no doubt DK+shammy will be viable, but it certainly won't have as much cross-synergy as a prot pally.

Couldn't have said it better :thumbsup:

[offive]

As for tanking with the DK for any team... it's just another option. For example, unholy tank with anti magic shield... drop shield over clones on caster boss? Also I think the unholy build will be the aoe tanking build. I think Blizzard has done a good job on warrior tanks (my main tank on my first team). Pally tanks are insane for boosting now (no healing or drinking?). I don't have a drood tank (yet) so I can't comment on it. I do think at 80 niche tanking roles will become apparent in later raiding content.

The DK starting area is not really MB friendly, but can be managed. As for the masses of DKs on day one / week one, remember the DK staring area is phased so it might be better than Borean Tundra or Howling Fjord land rush. Unfortunately the DK starting quests are over way too fast. Utilizing RAF, if possible, will most likely put you in Outlands at 60 or higher.

As for PvP melee classes will fall fast to a team of 5 DKs, if you can keep them in front of 5 swinging two handers long enough for * strike, death coil to hit. I think Casters can be handled with a nice alternating rotation of death grip and ice chains. MBing DKs will not be easy but should provide a fun challenge. More than likely people will mix the builds in DK teams (2 blood, 1 frost, 2 unholy), I have not confirmed if presences stack, but with auras doing so now... it could be sick.

I have played DKs a bit and as a solo toon they are a kick in the pants, and I think done right they will be crazy for a MB.

[Hor]

My primary interest in the DK tank is Unholy, as you put it as an AE tanking spec. That, and of course the debuffs they do, in particular the one that works similar to Curse of Elements. (Can not for the life of me remember it's name at the moment Ebon Grasp or something). I think it will take some expiramentation, but will be as Ellay said a very viable option. In my opinion, it will also be fun and unique. Everyone's got Paladins, I have one of those already. And a Warrior, I want to try my hand at this one. The thing that conerns me really about the DK is the lack of a Shield, the fact that they seem to be based more on Dodge than Mitigation. It could make for some very spikey damage taken, and some severe healing issues.

[Svpernova09]

My primary interest in the DK tank is Unholy, as you put it as an AE tanking spec. That, and of course the debuffs they do, in particular the one that works similar to Curse of Elements. (Can not for the life of me remember it's name at the moment Ebon Grasp or something). I think it will take some expiramentation, but will be as Ellay said a very viable option. In my opinion, it will also be fun and unique. Everyone's got Paladins, I have one of those already. And a Warrior, I want to try my hand at this one. The thing that conerns me really about the DK is the lack of a Shield, the fact that they seem to be based more on Dodge than Mitigation. It could make for some very spikey damage taken, and some severe healing issues.Druids are the same way, at least the armor nerf didn't hurt as much as I was expecting it to, but I think DK's will be fine tanks.

[Aethon]

ok well then 5 Dks enjoy the non MBable quests in the starting area. Lots of phasing going on so they might be in different "phases" as well. Maybe hand leveling each through starting area and then grouping after might work better, I can't be sure as I didnt try it.

However 5 DKs might rape face in world pvp, they are pretty OP right now.

Are they going to be out of phase with each other if they're on the same part of quest and in the same party? My thoughts were more along the lines of: I have the software, I have the hardware, I have the accounts and I still have RaF benifits, why not just start my DK's at the same time and enjoy the 3x XP bonus while I can.

I was expecting that everyone would be on the same 'page' and I'd get to milk the system a little bit more, coming out of the DK zone at a slightly higher level due to RaF XP bonuses from 55-60.

If when you phase, you phase interdependent of each other, then there's no point MB'ing 5 DK's. I started RaF because I wanted to try different classes for solo play, it's just now, I'm hooked on the drug of 5 boxing, while solo play is my 'off' time.

[offive]

The phase question should be answered by someone who got multiple beta invites. I only got one :(

But I think they should all be on the same page as the phases seem to be tied to quests.

[Xar]

When you switch phase you then see others in the same phase. I would think it's multiboxable as long as you catch each DK up when you hit a new phase by turning in a quest, etc.

[holyground]

I have spent alot of time in the beta, fooling around with DKs, etc. To clear up some misconceptions:

Phasing isn't like instancing. All same-faction Deathknights start in the same area. The phasing technology is used to show transitions in the story arc/quest progress. So as long as all of your PCs complete the quests together, they'll never not see each other. Most transitions happen when you travel anyways: it's not like people suddenly disappear. They happen when you switch from Acherus to Death's reach.

Death Knights are not paladins. I don't want to offend paladins, but you cannot /afk on a DK. even sub-optimal rotations require a button press ever ~2 seconds. Death and Decay is a weak consecrate, but it works. However, it requires you to mouse select the AoE portion. The second aoe is Pestilence, which will spread diseases that you have already applied to all other mobs within range.



There are a few collection quests in the starting area. the most painful for multiboxing the starting experience for DKs is going to be collecting saronite arrows (they're random spawns on the ground) and collecting skulls for noth's potions. Protip, I have yet to see these potions drop anywhere else in the game, and they restore health and runic power. You can have 20 max, and get 5 at a time. I suggest collecting enough skulls for at least 1 extra hand in.

Also, there are very, very few upgrades in regular outland for your gear. Most of them are not worth the effort. I suggest powering through to 65, and do a quick ring of blood. The axe is killer.

Train maces when possible. If you're going straight to 80, pick the axe instead of the sword (almost all blue upgrades are axes.).

As for multiboxing with DKs as the tanks, I'd say it's viable, but probably not optimal. unlike the other tanks, the DK receives no benefit from getting hit. They have no shield to mitigate incoming damage, and actually have the lowest mitigation of any tank. They are avoidance tanks, which means that you'll have to pay more attention to which way they're facing, because they don't have the high armor of druids, nor the reflective damage of paladins and warriors.

[mmcookies]

I'm making a DK just for aesthetics...
tanking with a two-handed sword is just too cool :p

[Vyndree]

The phase question should be answered by someone who got multiple beta invites. I only got one :(

But I think they should all be on the same page as the phases seem to be tied to quests.

When you phase, you indeed phase into the same place as the rest of your party (and some outsiders, too).

That being said, many of the DK quests require that you take over various vehicles/objects. /follow doesn't work in those cases, so be prepared to do some fancy maneuvering with your arrow keys. ;) As long as you're within range of the others, you usually share credit for quests if only one DK completes it in your party. Usually.

[sedory]

DK Tanks do benefit from melee totems.
DK Tanks do benefit from spell power totems.
DK Tanks can provide 20% melee haste (windfury is 16%) to party/raid (this is a talent, 26pts Frost)
DK Tanks can provide 155 str/agil to party/raid @ lvl 75, where Srength of Earth totem matches it at lvl 80 (this is a spell all specs get I believe)

My secondary toon is an enhantment shaman and yes, I easily dual box it currently with a paladin. I'd likely swap my totems around though.. right now it's usually Windfury/Flametongue/Strength/Mana to Wrath/Flametongue/Strength or Stoneskin/Health. Yeah, i'm a bit crazy running around with two melee types, but that's mainly for leveling and it's not as hard as you may think when it's only 2 toons. Once dual-spec comes out, I'll likely have a restro spec setup for the shaman so I can just nab some dps friends for some instance running. Then, when raiding, just run with my DK.

Worst case, I have my paladin I leveled up with the shaman as a backup. :D

[puppychow]

I ran two 80 heroics today in a regular group on beta pre-made (azjor and strat) and it was not super hard but not super easy. I don't see how you'd do it without a decently geared tank and a good healer, our 28k prot warr died a number of times in az and we wiped a bunch of times in strat. There isn't that much trash but they tend to come in timerd waves and the bosses are multi-phase with "gimmicks", like don't stand here, DPS this add while boss is away, etc. The less micromanaging you have to do on the tank the better, since there is quite a bit of movement and quick group heals required.

[Vyndree]

DK Tanks do benefit from melee totems.
DK Tanks do benefit from spell power totems.
DK Tanks can provide 20% melee haste (windfury is 16%) to party/raid (this is a talent, 26pts Frost)
DK Tanks can provide 155 str/agil to party/raid @ lvl 75, where Srength of Earth totem matches it at lvl 80 (this is a spell all specs get I believe)

Keeping in mind that the melee haste from DK's probably doesn't stack with WF and gives nothing to ele shammies. Neither would Str/Agi to an ele shammy.

The totems that benefit DKs would therefore be:
windfury (doesn't stack with Imp Icy Talons), woa, goa, soe (doesn't stack with Horn of Winter), healing stream, stoneskin, tremor, grounding, tow...

The benefits DK can give to ele shammies would therefore be:
*crickets* Anti-Magic bubble?


The totems that benefit pallies would be:
windfury, woa, goa, soe, healing stream, mana spring, mana tide (if resto), stoneskin, tremor, grounding, tow

The benefits pallies could give would be:
kings or wisdom, judgement of light/wis, imp devo (think treeform)/conc aura
And additionally, if respeccing holy: healing (for pvp)
And additionally, if respeccing ret: Heart of the Crusader (crit talent -- doesn't stack with ToW), Sanctified Retribution (2% damage), Divine Storm (heals), Swift Retribution (haste), Judgements of the Wise (replenishment)

(Buff stacking according to http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=9336795321&sid=1 )

And that's not even counting button synergy (holy shield + lightning bolt = spam buttons; avenger's shield + chain lightning = 3-person targeted aoe)


I'm not belittling DK tanks -- like I said, I think they'll be as viable as any other tank. But there's most definitely a REASON why pallies are better -- they're the only tank who tanks with a blue mana bar, and they're the only tank who can give elemental shamans CASTER buffs back. Hybrids match well with hybrids, but Pallies are the only one that gives any significant gain to casters. Bear tanks come close (at least they have motw), but a bear that's tanking can't exactly shift out while tanking to innervate -- particularly since shammies aren't spirit-based casters anyway. Bears will finally now benefit from WF totem, which is an upgrade.

[Hor]

The benefits DK can give to ele shammies would therefore be:
*crickets* Anti-Magic bubble?I know you're not "trying" to belittle DKs, but you are omitting one very important point. Infact, the whole point of including a DK in a Shaman group imo.

Ebon Plaguebringer
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=51161

[Drakkun]

I played a premade DK + 4 elemental shaman a few weeks ago. It is really nice. Unholy DK gets so much aggro to start that the shamans never pulled aggro. I would start by putting down Death and Decay, pull a mob with Deathgrip, apply diseases, by this time all mobs are on you so you can use Pestilence and Unholy Blight. From there you just use white damage, maybe a few Deathcoils.

D&D + Pestilence + UB = tons of aoe threat.

I plan to replace my paladin with an unholy DK. I will power level the DK to 68 with shaman following out of group for heals/pvp protection.

[Vyndree]

The benefits DK can give to ele shammies would therefore be:
*crickets* Anti-Magic bubble?I know you're not "trying" to belittle DKs, but you are omitting one very important point. Infact, the whole point of including a DK in a Shaman group imo.

Ebon Plaguebringer
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=51161

Must've missed that. My apologies. You basically get ONE CoE debuff (if specced), plus anti-magic bubble (if specced).

[Tasty]

Different situations, apples/oranges etc etc... :(

[algol]

Army of the Dead, MB version.

DK boxing will be made to work. :D

[sedory]

@Vyndree - Yes, I mentioned both Windfury and Strength totems can be replaced by DK abilities (and they are slightly better), which then lets you choose a different Air and Earth totem. Granted, most run quad ele shamans, but I just plan on the DK and a single shaman.. enhancement is not too bad like that while not drudging instances.

[Vyndree]

enhancement is not too bad like that while not drudging instances.

Yea, DKs with ENHANCEMENT shaman would make much more sense (though pally wouldn't be BAD -- I'd probably make it ret though). Melee class to buff a melee class.

The point of pallies is that most people run that comp with 1 or more ELE shaman, and pallies most definitely complement that comp better.

[offive]

Guess it doesn't matter to me. I will be rolling DKs and use them when it makes sense. I thought they were intended to be the anti-magic tank. Anyway I need more micro management issues in my life :)

[Hor]

Back to the topic, I have to agree with Vyn, I don't think DKs are going to replace Palis in boxer groups. They've got a place, definitely. But it's just like Druids, I don't think they'll replace Shamans for boxing. It's just another thing to consider when you're making group comps. I have a couple of groups I want to play around with using the DK, mainly mixed group stuff. I'm anxious to see what comes out of the Xpac really, I expect to see some interesting new boxer groups.

[Vyndree]

Same with Hor, I will most likely be incorporating a DK into my groups at some point, just for the fun of experiencing a DK. However if I was min/maxing a group I probably would choose to bring the pally over the DK.

I'm actually considering just going flat-out 5 DKs, regardless of them being melee, since there aren't many classes left that I want to level. I've already got shammies, hunters, druids, warlocks...

[algol]

You KNOW you want to cast 5x Army of the Dead. We can find a way to make melee behave. Maybe?

[Hor]

I'm really thinking about doing DK, 3 Locks, and a Shad Priest. I'm going to atleast give it a try.