Raidboxers, why shamans?

[Trammel]

I was personally wondering why raidboxers were leveling shamans.

It seems to me that if you had a relatively (to us mere 5 boxing mortals), large number of characters, you would want to go with some combination of mages/priests?

Surely 35 priests spamming holy nova would make short work of anything?

[Skuggomann]

Umm... totems? Mail? Ranged? Hybrid class? Uh...... seriously.

wow i see your just over 4000 now, gz.

[Feardis]

i think the overall dps insanity as opposed to having a meat sheild with normal dps and healers
makes it quicker then say your guild kara run

and i dont think a tank could hold aggro
mayb a pally...

[Trammel]

ok re: mail

Who cares?

35 holy novas will kill everything in 10 yards, heal you for at least 5k (every priest) every 1.5 seconds.

35 Reflective shields would make AOEing you pretty amusing.

Priests are equally ranged, and while you might lose some long distance CL killing power, 35 SWPs are going to kill anybody - while you move every GCD.

Same for MBS/SWDs

Pain supression

Penance...

Fear ward...

I mean if you really wanted you could throw in a shaman in each group for tremors/groundings/thunderstorm rotation...

[suprafro]

36 magma totems/36 nova totems/36 fire elementals and 36 thunderstorms > mage priest aoe with that many characters

Grounding and tremor for every group

Just imagine the insanity of target random on 36 characters + chain lightning, not like you would really need to very often when your totems and thunderstorm will just auto kill everything though

Hope the guy makes some city raid videos, because i'm sure they will be incredible to watch

[Trammel]

Ya I guess thunderstorm/raidwide healing/mana streams might really give them the edge in larger scale stuff.

[Daleka]

Normal guild kara run, 1 maybe 2 shamans - 2-2.5 hours
4 shaman kara run, every totem available - cleared to aran in just over an hour. Raid makeup: 1 Tank (warrior), 4 shaman (ele), Pali (holy), Druid (feral), Rogue, Warlock, Hunter

Didn't finish the run because it was late and the tank had to leave. All bosses dropped in no more than 1.5 minutes. Shamans just put out more dps and all around buffs than most classes as a whole. I was also able to off heal when needed. Mobs just died too fast most of the time, and the Pali just sat around and sometimes dps'd. I plan on trying my full team this week with 2 healers.

[Leon]

35 Enhancement Shaman = 70 Spirit Wolves

[Tidomann]

Are healing/mana stream totems raid wide? I don't think I've noticed mana stream on the entire raid, just my group.. Correct me if I'm wrong, because I do know it pulses.. But my friend told me when he was in another group that he was not getting ticks off healing stream? @_@

[Trammel]

Honestly I'm not sure, there were mentions of one or the other stacking at minimum I think.

I'd log in now and test it but servers are down ;/

[Tidomann]

yeah they definitely stack, and I was really happy about that.. But I'm not sure about it being raid wide.. Having 5x constant mana stream is a little overpowered raid wide..

[Siaea]

Healing stream still stacks (tested last night). Mana is supposed to stack, but I didn't really delve too deeply into testing it, since I didn't really mess with my scrolling combat text to show mana.

And on the class make up, you can't beat 5 shaman for instant damage output. I know that particular composition is the most popular, but that is the reason. Insane instant damage (pve and pvp, you can't imagine the 'lols' I get when I one shot somebody in AV). Even as mediocre geared as my team is, I still put out respectable damage. Five fire nova totems kill any group where AoE is needed in an instance, 5 grounding totems means no spell will touch you while you burn a group down, and 5 tremors mean any fear lasts less than a second. That's not to mention the 5 tanks-on-a-stick and 2 minutes later 5 fire elementals. I'm slowly getting geared, and have no problem with same-level pulls in instances.

[Svpernova09]

Healing stream still stacks (tested last night). Mana is supposed to stack, but I didn't really delve too deeply into testing it, since I didn't really mess with my scrolling combat text to show mana.

And on the class make up, you can't beat 5 shaman for instant damage output. I know that particular composition is the most popular, but that is the reason. Insane instant damage (pve and pvp, you can't imagine the 'lols' I get when I one shot somebody in AV). Even as mediocre geared as my team is, I still put out respectable damage. Five fire nova totems kill any group where AoE is needed in an instance, 5 grounding totems means no spell will touch you while you burn a group down, and 5 tremors mean any fear lasts less than a second. That's not to mention the 5 tanks-on-a-stick and 2 minutes later 5 fire elementals. I'm slowly getting geared, and have no problem with same-level pulls in instances.I can confirm mana spring stacking in 5 mans, haven't tested across raid groups.

[suprafro]

All water totems, grounding totem, and tremor totem are party only

[Siaea]

I can confirm mana spring stacking in 5 mans, haven't tested across raid groups.Oh nice, maybe I can beat the horseman now. I get to the 3rd phase and am completely OOM. I've been using 4 healing and 1 mana, so I'll try again tonite. Damn you full workday!

[Svpernova09]

I can confirm mana spring stacking in 5 mans, haven't tested across raid groups.Oh nice, maybe I can beat the horseman now. I get to the 3rd phase and am completely OOM. I've been using 4 healing and 1 mana, so I'll try again tonite. Damn you full workday!yeah I was popping mana pots by the 3rd transition with my 3 shaman on him, I never failed to down him, just had some close calls between dpsing him, and healing my druid tanking him.

[Prepared]

Simply put - totems. Seriously multi-class synergy by stacking totems and the fact that shaman are a hybrid class (heal and dps).

Coupled with a Paladin tank, they are all but unstoppable in PvE settings.

(sorry if I came off rude... this question has been asked many times and answered many times.... try using the search next time)


This is exactly it! Totems to lag out the PvPers! :) 4 times 32 totems (128) would surely slow down the other side in PvP combat in many different ways. For PvE, the totems would also help but in PvP, the totems help to slow down the other sides targetting as well as lag em out!

[Tidomann]

Simply put - totems. Seriously multi-class synergy by stacking totems and the fact that shaman are a hybrid class (heal and dps).

Coupled with a Paladin tank, they are all but unstoppable in PvE settings.

(sorry if I came off rude... this question has been asked many times and answered many times.... try using the search next time)


This is exactly it! Totems to lag out the PvPers! :) 4 times 32 totems (128) would surely slow down the other side in PvP combat in many different ways. For PvE, the totems would also help but in PvP, the totems help to slow down the other sides targetting as well as lag em out!Lagtrap.. I like

[Ellay]

Latest Blue notes show they are looking into Elemental Shamans AoE capability and planning on buffing it majorly , woo woo :)

[Rin]

Mana spring/healing stream are not raid wide. They stack, but for group play only. Imagine 25 x healing stream or mana spring totems, lol ;-)

The original poster was asking about raid groups being composed of all shaman. While I can't speak on behalf of Sam or Prepared, I can tell you that there are virtually no bosses (especially in WOTLK) that you can steamroll by simply bringing 25 of x-class to a "raid"; some people are even questoning the viability of the 5-man shaman setup for WoTLK, especially with the pure damage that NPC warrior/paladin types are issuing in instances.

Personally, I run ten characters: 4 shaman, 2 paladins, a priest, a druid, and two mages. The mixed classes really make a difference when it comes to end-game content, as encounters are specifically designed around you bringing N-number of certain class types to a raid. Besides, if every/any T5+ instance could be steamrolled by having all of one (especially caster based, in the case of shaman) class, hardcore players could get through the entire expansion (less attunement time) within weeks, probably not more than 6 weeks at best.

Also, besides being uber fun and awesome; outside of winterspring, and as someone has pointed out - outside of a city raid, there's not a lot of content where you can bring 30+ characters into, unless you're looking at the 40 mans, which you can do now with 1 group (max 2 groups) of decently equipped characters.

[Vyndree]

Personally, when I rolled my shammies it was because I'd already had a shammy. In fact, my "main" was constantly respeccing between Elemental and Resto.

Another reason why I chose shammies is their relatively simple dps rotation. In a raid, you've got too much to micromanage without having to worry about a complex rotation.

Lastly, totem stacking (particularly grounding totem). It trivializes fights like Maiden which would be incredibly hard to heal otherwise. A simple grounding totem can mitigate tons of damage without much micromanagement.

And, since I had an extra spot (1 main shaman, already 70; 4 elemental shaman) in my leveling group, I wanted a tank. I had started out with a gnome warrior (she's the one in my RFK and SM video) but had a prot paladin sitting at 40. After much debate, since I was doing fine with the warrior -- I decided to level onwards (see RFD video and later) with a prot paladin. The prot paladin had more synergy with the shaman -- BoW/Salv for the shammies, and the pally benefits from both melee and spellcaster totems.

When I was around level 40ish, Ellay proved that 4 shaman could be amazing arena PvPers as well. And, well... the rest is history ('http://dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=3060').

[Xar]

LOL Vyndree, I swear I'm not following you around posting right after you do... :) You just happen to post in threads just before I see them.

My favorite was a lock for a long time...then I got a priest to 70 and had her follow my lock. It was a great thing. My priest was raiding for a few months and I had a blast. I'd farm gold with dailies on my priest and lock to fund my priests never ending potion and consumable needs. Got epic flying on both and drakes, etc. Then the raiding guild fell apart and I wasn't happy with the merge that happened so I quit. I saw a posting at wowinsider about Vyndree and Suvega doing Kara and that's how I found this dual-boxing site.

I set up 3 trial accounts, bought keyclone and after my first 5x shadow bolts in the starter area I was hooked. I noticed almost everyone had shaman teams or a large number of shaman in their teams. My wife and I would always have playful arguments about which class was better, me being a lock and her being a ele shaman. I started 5 shaman...never looked back. They are highly resilient in both pve and pvp and have nice burst damage. I was always affliction on my lock and it's a night and day difference at the dps difference. Don't get me wrong my lock is quite capable at killing but the mechanic is slow,life draining kills over time where shaman just go BAM and things die.

Then the totem choices available, they're like an army of little pets ready to be called to your aid if you need something extra in the middle of a fight. Getting poisoned? No problem, just drop a posion cleansing totem to replace a tremor or stoneclaw totem.

Healing...this past weekend I ran 3 heroics with my prot warrior friend. He's pretty well geared and I'd just heal him once he got halfway in health with 4x lesser healing waves, quick heal and he was full health.

I'm definitely an Ele Shaman convert for boxing, but my holy priest will always be my favorite single toon.

[emesis]

I can confirm mana spring stacking in 5 mans, haven't tested across raid groups.Oh nice, maybe I can beat the horseman now. I get to the 3rd phase and am completely OOM. I've been using 4 healing and 1 mana, so I'll try again tonite. Damn you full workday!I can confirm it was stacking yesterday. I do not know if this is intended or a bug. Today's maintenance may change it as well.

Hopefully this is intended behavior. I'm running the Horseman as well and 5x mana spring totems are incredible. That's 100 mana per 2 seconds or 250 mp/5 WHILE CASTING. lol

[Tidomann]

I'm sure it's intended behavior.. I just think that if it was applied raid wide, it would not be.

[Sam DeathWalker]

Chain Heal automatically seeks out the lowest hp, the one who needs it the most, eliminating a ton of healing targeting.

Chain Lightnight lets you get more bang for your buck by not over killing to much.

With those two spells there is very little else to think about.

Although some were critical of my long time spent theory crafting and not playing as it turns out 25 Shaman and 1 Paliden is about as perfect as you can get.

[valkry]

Mana spring/healing stream are not raid wide. They stack, but for group play only. Imagine 25 x healing stream or mana spring totems, lol ;-)

The original poster was asking about raid groups being composed of all shaman. While I can't speak on behalf of Sam or Prepared, I can tell you that there are virtually no bosses (especially in WOTLK) that you can steamroll by simply bringing 25 of x-class to a "raid"; some people are even questoning the viability of the 5-man shaman setup for WoTLK, especially with the pure damage that NPC warrior/paladin types are issuing in instances.

Personally, I run ten characters: 4 shaman, 2 paladins, a priest, a druid, and two mages. The mixed classes really make a difference when it comes to end-game content, as encounters are specifically designed around you bringing N-number of certain class types to a raid. Besides, if every/any T5+ instance could be steamrolled by having all of one (especially caster based, in the case of shaman) class, hardcore players could get through the entire expansion (less attunement time) within weeks, probably not more than 6 weeks at best.

Also, besides being uber fun and awesome; outside of winterspring, and as someone has pointed out - outside of a city raid, there's not a lot of content where you can bring 30+ characters into, unless you're looking at the 40 mans, which you can do now with 1 group (max 2 groups) of decently equipped characters.

Bosses that can be downed with 25 of X class: kazzak, doomwalker (or whatever his name), Gruul, Magtheridon, all of kara, half-most of ZA, lurker, hydross, morogrim tidewalker, probably fathom lord K, Void Reaver, Supremus, Akama, rage winterchill, 2nd boss of mount hyjal, teron gorefiend.

I'm thinking of 25 pallies for those bosses. prot, ret and holy, all 3 specs are awesome. Druids can also perform just as well for most of them, but lack dispels for some fights and bubble. If you want, I'll go into why each one is possible. But that is a little more than "virtually no[ne]." Think outside the box more.

[Tasty]

Simply put - totems. Seriously multi-class synergy by stacking totems and the fact that shaman are a hybrid class (heal and dps).

Coupled with a Paladin tank, they are all but unstoppable in PvE settings.

(sorry if I came off rude... this question has been asked many times and answered many times.... try using the search next time)


I keep saying that on the wow forums. All the qq posts usually end up about how shaman stacking/synergy is overpowered yet they still cry about multiboxing itself!

[Tasty]

Latest Blue notes show they are looking into Elemental Shamans AoE capability and planning on buffing it majorly , woo woo :)

They're also giving all classes a healing spell and the ability to tank. In a later patch they're also merging all the classes into one. :P




:(

[valkry]

Yea, warriors will get 'Healing Shout" and th rogue ability CoBS will now also act like a 'Lay on Hands,' the remainder of their energy will be drained for a heal equal to their max hp.

PS: They are also giving pallies a new bubble which makes them immune to magic damage but not physical. And just like BoP, it doesn't share a cd with the hearth bubble.

[Vyndree]

Bosses that can be downed with 25 of X class: kazzak, doomwalker (or whatever his name), Gruul, Magtheridon, all of kara, half-most of ZA, lurker, hydross, morogrim tidewalker, probably fathom lord K, Void Reaver, Supremus, Akama, rage winterchill, 2nd boss of mount hyjal, teron gorefiend.

Have you seen this ACTUALLY done? With which classes? With what kind of gear (i.e. do you expect each of the 25 to be wearing sunwell level gear?)

What about gruul's ground slams? Netherspite's beams? Mag's box clicking? Lurker's knockback? Hydross's nature resist (for ele shammies)? Dodging void's orbs (keeping in mind that they silence)? Supremus's random targeting? Teron's ghosts?




Of course, I'm under the impression we're talking about at least 5 5-boxers or more (2.5 10-boxers? 1 25-boxer?)

[Tasty]

I assume 25 paladins could take down a raid boss ;)

[algol]

I assume 25 paladins could take down a raid boss ;)Seeing as they can out-tank, out-heal, and out-dps ...well, everybody... right now? I would hope so. Theoretically it's getting fixed. Now if they can "fix" it by making shamans more powerful, I think no one around here would complain too loudly...

[valkry]

Bosses that can be downed with 25 of X class: kazzak, doomwalker (or whatever his name), Gruul, Magtheridon, all of kara, half-most of ZA, lurker, hydross, morogrim tidewalker, probably fathom lord K, Void Reaver, Supremus, Akama, rage winterchill, 2nd boss of mount hyjal, teron gorefiend.

Have you seen this ACTUALLY done? With which classes? With what kind of gear (i.e. do you expect each of the 25 to be wearing sunwell level gear?)

What about gruul's ground slams? Netherspite's beams? Mag's box clicking? Lurker's knockback? Hydross's nature resist (for ele shammies)? Dodging void's orbs (keeping in mind that they silence)? Supremus's random targeting? Teron's ghosts?




Of course, I'm under the impression we're talking about at least 5 5-boxers or more (2.5 10-boxers? 1 25-boxer?)
If you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and ME. No where did I say it involved boxing, the claim was "virtually no bosses" can be downed by 25 of X class, I simply gave examples of which bosses I feel can be. And no, you do not need sunwell gear, those bosses are laughable in terms of difficulty. Now for the wall of text...

kazzak - Ezmode, just tank, spank and don't die lol. 25 pallies or druids could do this. If you need sunwell gear to do this fight, please join a new guild and stop getting carried.

Doomwalker - Same as above, just heal through dmg, tank and spank. Don't die.

Gruul - does not include HKM. Groound slams...well, that's why you spread out. 25 pallies would be hard because they are all melee, but you know, there is this mod right, which shows a timer for his ground slams yea, which you can put in a very visible location on your screen right, so you can move the fuk away. 25 druid, 2 bears, 6-7 resto druids, a few cats, rest = boomkins.

Mag - 5 bears, 5 boomkins (clicking cubes), 6 trees, rest can be whatever. Same can be done with pallies, it's not a dps race, have some holy, 3 prot, rest can be ret. have your cube clickers organised. Same as with gruul, DBM shows a timer for when he is about to cast blast wave. It's not hard to dps until 7 seconds til blast wave then move over to the cube.

Lurker - Druids or pallies. Druids can all be ranged dps bar the tank, no need to worry about knockback. Even if you have melee dps, knockback is laughable, wait for a heal, more forward and start dpsing again. Have 3 bears ready for tanking when he dives and 3 ranged dps on each platform.

Hydross - nat resist can be achieved by prot pallies. No problem. Adds can be aoe tanked (dont even need resist for those since the nerf ages ago).

Void reaver - apart from running sideways to avoid this huge ball of electricity, you can also camp at his feet and just heal through the groundings. (This boss I feel can be 25 boxed with 3 prot pallies, some healers and rest ele shammies.

Tidewalker - 2 prot pallies, 6-7 holy, rest ret. AoE is no problem, neither is healing. Nothing really too hard about this boss. 25 druids would also be able to do this.

Kara - I don't need to say anything, it's already been done. Go to youtube, 10 druid kara, 10 pally kara.

ZA - Eagle boss is tank/spank/run in. bear boss is dual tank/spank. Dragonhawk boss is tank/spank/deal with adds/avoid fire bombs. Zul'jin can be done with pallies because they can dispel themselves, and can autoswing dps the phase where spells cause dmg.

Supremus - Phase 1 = tank/spank, when nearly Phase 2, run away, avoid fire, easy.

teron - when you become a ghost, kill the constructs, easy. pallies can dispel, druids can aoe heal massively.

rage winterchill - yawn, heal frostbolt targets, dps, run out of disease cloud.

2nd boss of mount hyjal - 1 tanks boss, 1 tanks infernals, heal, dps, infernal healer stay away from boss to avoid carrion swarm.

I had already said that they can be done with either pallies or druids for most bosses. Shammies can't tank most end-game bosses (they can tank kara, go to youtube). Wouldn't surprise me if a shammy tanked VR though, really wouldn't.

I said in another thread that there are 2x25 man bosses I felt could be solod with a 25 boxer, one of them is VR, the other is rage winterchill. VR, camp at feet, heal/tank/spank. Rage, just strafe to avoid disease, click heal frostbolt targets, take your few raid deaths and your loot :)

PS: If you can't camp at the feet of VR because he will then start spamming orbs in melee range (I dont think he will though because there is a minimum range), you can set up 3 resto druids to strafe in a circle around VR (lock down strafe and a slow turn on a seperate keyboard or keybinding) so that th orbs will always fire at them, but due to constant movement will never hit.

[algol]

the claim was "virtually no bosses" can be downed by 25 of X classI recall a certain vid of a bunch of frost mages lolling it up on Rag back in the day.

[valkry]

yea, 1 min 34 seconds downing him. But wasn't a mage tanking nor a mage healing. All druids can down rag though :) Even all pallies, just have to run out every once in a while though lol.

[algol]

"A pally can down any boss solo: they bubble-hearth and declare Mission Accomplished."

Or something like that.

[valkry]

"A ret pally can down any boss solo: they auto-swing and declare Mission Accomplished."

Or something like that.
Yup, totally agree. :thumbup:

[Vyndree]

If you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and ME. No where did I say it involved boxing, the claim was "virtually no bosses" can be downed by 25 of X class,

Actually, the title of the thread is "RaidBOXERS, why shamans?" -- hence my impression that they were asking for theorycraft/experiences of raiding MULTIBOXERS. ;)

Furthermore, the prefix and postfix of the "claim" is...

While I can't speak on behalf of Sam or Prepared, I can tell you that there are virtually no bosses (especially in WOTLK) that you can steamroll by simply bringing 25 of x-class to a "raid"; some people are even questoning the viability of the 5-man shaman setup for WoTLK, especially with the pure damage that NPC warrior/paladin types are issuing in instances.

So forgive me if my IMPRESSION (nowhere did I say assumption, but the mockery was cute -- I wasn't aware that my post came off as hostile, only argumentative -- we ARE having a discussion, are we not?) was incorrect, but imo it was pretty realistic given the context and the quote to think that way. I'd also generally assume (yes, assume) that anything on a multiboxing forum that isn't in "off-topic" should probably have to do with multiboxers?

I didn't disagree on the fact that single-class soloboxers can accomplish these things -- 10 druids have completed Karazhan LONG before the patch. 10 paladins as well. Hybrids (with tanking and healing specs) tend to do the best when they don't actually outgear the instances. But I was under the impression that we were talking about multiboxers -- in which case any fight involving complex movement or immediate reactions would likely fail.

[valkry]

It may have started out that way, but threads derail. Some were talking about raid boxing, but I was not talking about boxing bosses with 25 of X class, I was talking about downing bosses with 25 of X class.

He should have said "the are virtually no 25 man raid bosses that can be downed by only boxers" instead of what he said. Also, Sam and prepared are not just shammies, Sam has a Pally, prepared has other classes too. Hence "25 of X class" is not entirely true for them.

PS: Whilst the prefix and postfix may have been about boxers, I didn't quote those...for a reason, I was only talking about what i quoted. Nothing more. yes I took it out of context a little. But that quote was a bit of a deviation, and proving that some bosses can be downed by 25 of x class is just a short step away from being able to prove that a boxer can. My belief of VR and RW being boxable still stand. One day I might even try it.

PPS: That little bit of text is interesting. The thread was aksing "why all shammies?" Like why all of one class, why not have different ones?

While I can't speak on behalf of Sam or Prepared, I can tell you that there are virtually no bosses (especially in WOTLK) that you can steamroll by simply bringing 25 of x-class to a "raid"; some people are even questoning the viability of the 5-man shaman setup for WoTLK, especially with the pure damage that NPC warrior/paladin types are issuing in instances.
Reworded...I can't tell you why Sam and Prepared chose all shammies, but there are like no 25 man raid bosses that can be downed by using just one class, hell, even using a 5 shammy team for instances is becoming questionable...
This has veered off to talking about group composition more-so than boxing, hence I answered it the way i did.

The bosses I listed can be downed by using just a single class.

PPPS: When I reply to a quote, I only talk about the quote. Nothing more. I don't talk about what came before or after the quote, only the quote, it's why I singled it out instead of the whole post. It's...propper.

[Vyndree]

Also, Sam and prepared are not just shammies

I didn't say they were. Sam & Prepared are RAIDboxers, in that they both box enough characters that they must "convert to raid" in order to even have them in the same group.

The semicolon is a delimiter -- on a seperate note, people are panicking about the reduced efficiency of shaman stacking.

They are two seperate issues that are mildly related.


While I can't speak on behalf of Sam or Prepared, I can tell you that there are virtually no bosses (especially in WOTLK) that you can steamroll by simply bringing 25 of x-class to a "raid";
My translation: Since Sam and Prepared are the only ones with enough numbers to make this theorycraft possible (and who have not yet had the experience of firsthand knowledge yet), I don't believe bosses (especially in WOTLK) can be brute-forced by 25 multiboxed characters.

some people are even questoning the viability of the 5-man shaman setup for WoTLK, especially with the pure damage that NPC warrior/paladin types are issuing in instances.
My translation: Furthermore, 5-shaman groups are not as viable in wrath as they were in burning crusade. (which would therefore imply that Sam and Prepared's 25 man groups which are largely composed of shaman would be more successful in BC -- prepatch -- than they would in wrath -- postpatch -- thanks to shaman stacking)

As it appears to me, Rin was speaking in the context of multiboxing. Without that context, the phrase you bolded might not have been his opinion. He talks about Sam and Prepared, a common multiboxing comp (5x shaman), and further goes on to talk about his personal multiboxing comp. Therefore, the context of "I can tell you that there are virtually no bosses (especially in WOTLK) that you can steamroll by simply bringing 25 of x-class to a "raid"" looked like, to me, a comment made regarding a MULTIBOX'ed raid. You quoted the entire text -- without the additional context I could see why you would consider it to be an incorrect statement -- but I responded the way I did because you told him to "think outside the box" and I felt his observation was perfectly reasonable. You can't just focus on a partial quote, without context, and draw conclusions about what a person's opinion is -- I'd imagine Rin's opinion outside of multiboxing would be far different than his opinion considering multiboxing.

That's my interpretation of the post. It doesn't match yours and that's fine -- I'm just giving reason why I gave my response and why I feel that my response was nonthreatening (though you still seem to think otherwise).

P.S. You quoted the entire post, including the phrase above, in a thread about multiboxing and raids. ;)

For clarity, you quoted this exactly (note that highlighting a sub-portion of a quote does not a single quote make):

Mana spring/healing stream are not raid wide. They stack, but for group play only. Imagine 25 x healing stream or mana spring totems, lol ;-)

The original poster was asking about raid groups being composed of all shaman. While I can't speak on behalf of Sam or Prepared, I can tell you that there are virtually no bosses (especially in WOTLK) that you can steamroll by simply bringing 25 of x-class to a "raid"; some people are even questoning the viability of the 5-man shaman setup for WoTLK, especially with the pure damage that NPC warrior/paladin types are issuing in instances.

Personally, I run ten characters: 4 shaman, 2 paladins, a priest, a druid, and two mages. The mixed classes really make a difference when it comes to end-game content, as encounters are specifically designed around you bringing N-number of certain class types to a raid. Besides, if every/any T5+ instance could be steamrolled by having all of one (especially caster based, in the case of shaman) class, hardcore players could get through the entire expansion (less attunement time) within weeks, probably not more than 6 weeks at best.

Also, besides being uber fun and awesome; outside of winterspring, and as someone has pointed out - outside of a city raid, there's not a lot of content where you can bring 30+ characters into, unless you're looking at the 40 mans, which you can do now with 1 group (max 2 groups) of decently equipped characters.
...when you meant to quote this...

I can tell you that there are virtually no bosses (especially in WOTLK) that you can steamroll by simply bringing 25 of x-class to a "raid";

Now, the first quote (the one you actually did) includes the context. The second quote puts words into Rin's mouth that I'm not sure he meant to say, because it's only a subset of a sentence. A subset of a sentence without the context around it, and of which you judged Rin for being close-minded. Was he really close-minded? Not according to context.

Now I'm fine with the fact that either I misunderstood you or you misunderstood the thread, but the hostility in your response and your not-so-subtle way of calling me an ass (particularly because I was unaware that I was doing something that warranted such a remark) is what's causing me to be incredibly clear about WHY I misunderstood you or you misunderstood the thread. There's no need to continue on about it. We know. There was a disjunct. It's done. It's clear. I know. You know. I still don't understand why you insist on being hostile, nor do I care to know why -- Can you simply please stop needling? I'm willing to drop the issue since it's no longer an issue.

[algol]

but there are like no 25 man raid bosses that can be downed by using just one classAll-druids should be able to take anything that doesn't have a gimmick forcing a particular non-standard tank, like the spellsteal guy on the SC in Gruul. All-paladins, for that matter, now that their DPS output isn't a sad joke.

[valkry]

What hostility? I replied in the exact same manner as you. Gave quotes, stated interpretations and reasons, stated opinions. If you find my post hostile, then surely you must accept that I would find yours hostile, for the exact same reasons. Forums don't phase me, they are there for discussion, i don't get angry when someone disagrees with me.

Hmm, yes, seems I did quote all of it, my bad. Seems I have started to quote everything then bold what I'm replying to. A habit I have picked up from someone else on this forum lol.

Ugh, I had something but I cbf editing the 5 quotes or so, in short, I was talking bout single classing bosses, you thought I was talking about raid boxes, I said he was talking bout single classing that why i answered like that, you said but he was also talking about sam and prepared, I said but they dont single class box so it's not relevant to my post, you said "I never said they were, [they] are raid boxers" - to that, while i was saying it to you, i was talking about the guy i quoted, not about what you did/didn't say.

PS: ret pallies' dps was never a sad joke. It was just that it was the ONLY class that actually required someone who knew HOW TO PLAY THE CLASS in order to do decent dps. Now it just requires someone to mash 1-5 and laugh at the numbers. Boy oh boy I wish I kept those WWS reports of our ret pally consistantly reaching top 3 for boss fights. Progression guild from the start, he was equal gear as everyone else. it's sad that the ret spec has gone from requiring 'pros to perform' to 'retards to roflrethax.'

[Vyndree]

This is me taking quotes out of context, for the purposes of instruction on why taking quotes out of context is not so good of an idea. ;)
I'm asking forgiveness in advance, but I'm trying to teach a valuable lesson.


What hostility?

Think outside the box more.

If you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and ME.




i don't get angry when someone disagrees with me.

And regarding nitpicking after the fact...

He should have said

Also, Sam and prepared are not just shammies

I was only talking about what i quoted. Nothing more

yes I took it out of context a little.

PPPS: When I reply to a quote, I only talk about the quote. Nothing more. I don't talk about what came before or after the quote, only the quote, it's why I singled it out instead of the whole post. It's...propper.


And finally, the reason why all of the above was unnecessary...

Hmm, yes, seems I did quote all of it, my bad.

;) :D

[Tasty]

This is me taking quotes out of context, for the purposes of instruction on why taking quotes out of context is not so good of an idea. ;)
I'm asking forgiveness in advance, but I'm trying to teach a valuable lesson.


What hostility?

Think outside the box more.

If you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and ME.




i don't get angry when someone disagrees with me.

And regarding nitpicking after the fact...

He should have said

Also, Sam and prepared are not just shammies

I was only talking about what i quoted. Nothing more

yes I took it out of context a little.

PPPS: When I reply to a quote, I only talk about the quote. Nothing more. I don't talk about what came before or after the quote, only the quote, it's why I singled it out instead of the whole post. It's...propper.


And finally, the reason why all of the above was unnecessary...

Hmm, yes, seems I did quote all of it, my bad.

;) :D

Man I'm pro :D

[valkry]

Wow, that's a lot of quotes.

yea, was my bad lol. I didn't mean to, just that I got into that bad habit of bolding instead of quoting propperly. It's a bad habit like drinking out of the milk carton. And I'm in troll mode atm so I didn't really notice I had done so :(

I'm so disappointed lol.

Just saw tasty add his post in now..."What? You ass, i said Sam was a nob." lol.

In my defense for that "think outside the box more" being quoted after "what hostility?"...it's pretty much what everyone is saying to Sam yet still feeling 'righteous.' I'm just following the examples of those 'role models.'

Lol, hit two birds with 1 stone there, defended myself and insulted some people, booya. Hmm...I just missed lunch, DAM YOU FORUMS!

[Tasty]

noob not nob :P I bolded TWO o's you jerk

[valkry]

noob not nob :P I bolded TWO o's you jerk

I struggle to read lower case
Sorry :(

[Tasty]

noob not nob :P I bolded TWO o's you jerk

I struggle to read lower case
Sorry :(

Its not your fault, its real difficult to read single bolded letters in full words with this font :)

[valkry]

So...friends again?

[Vyndree]

It happens to the best of us. I get exasperated more often then I'd like to admit. ;P


In my defense for that "think outside the box more" being quoted after "what hostility?"...it's pretty much what everyone is saying to Sam yet still feeling 'righteous.' I'm just following the examples of those 'role models.'

As for the above -- like I said in Prepared's thread -- mimicry is the highest form of flattery. Just because someone jumps off a bridge, doesn't mean you should. ;) It's hard to be infallible, though -- and it's no problem as long as we've cleared the air. I was just a bit taken aback by a few of the posts and I figured after a decent clarification things would sort themselves out. And they have. :)

[Tasty]

And they have

They certainly have not


Just because someone jumps off a bridge, doesn't mean you should.

What if you're part of a cult? :P

[Toned]

You can 10-15 man Gruul ... the 3.02 patch made TBC bosses a joke.

[Tasty]

You can 10-15 man Gruul ... the 3.02 patch made TBC bosses a joke.

man they must have really toned them down. Still gruul is no laughing matter :)

[valkry]

You can 10-15 man Gruul ... the 3.02 patch made TBC bosses a joke.
Have you seen this ACTUALLY done? With which classes? With what kind of gear (i.e. do you expect each of the 25 to be wearing sunwell level gear?)

What about gruul's ground slams?

Of course, I'm under the impression we're talking about 3 5 boxer or more (1.5 10 boxers? 1 15 boxer?)

Nononono, I KID, I kid lol :thumbsup:

Yea, we did gruul the other night with 18 people, was easy, I think we hit growth 4. The whole instance has been done in under 6 mins though.

[algol]

What about gruul's ground slams?Gruul is a wuss. I could see him being a bit of a pain to multibox, but nothing a spread out macro can't handle way better than most normal raids.

[Vyndree]

What about gruul's ground slams?

All I can say is I've done this pre-patch ('http://vboxing.net/v/tiki-view_blog_post.php?blogId=1&postId=25'), and it doesn't matter if you have a spread out macro. You get spread randomly -- so if you hit "spread out" and your guys are inverted... that means they're running TOWARDS each other.

I can very seriously say I only had one shaman standing at the end (my main). And I didn't start with 5. I only started with 2.

Yes, I couldn't even keep 2 shaman alive during the shatters.

[valkry]

If you stand behind a rock at the edge right beofre the big knock-about, you dont get punted anywhere. Then you have two options, just stay there so you are only in range of your other shammy and take the dmg from 1 person being close (easily live through) or spread out a bit (just strafe 1 guy away) but run the risk of getting closer to someone else.

As for 4 boxing, I went with 12 other people once. I split my team into 2 groups of 2. 1 team was at the back wall, sitting between a rock and the wall (on the sloped part of the wall so you can see over the top of the rock), but still in range of gruul, so they didnt even have to move at all, I just healed after every ground slam, and for the other 2 I used the above strat using the next rock along the wall. With only 16 people in the room, it is a lot easier to spread out. I had to spend 10 seconds at the start moving two guys over to the first rock, but then she was all sweet :)

[algol]

Tell them to follow the leader, they'll all face him and you can spread out from there.

[Rin]

Valkry,

I'm going to have to side with Vyndree on this one and state that you misintrepreted my point. I was responding to the initial thread topic, "Raidboxers, why shamans?"; the subject in itself poses the question, "As a raidboxer, why would you select a team composed of all shaman?" To setup my response, I used examples of other "raid"boxers (raidboxer being a subjective word, but I would think that we can consider a raid boxer to be anyone who has enough characters to fill a "raid" - whether it be a 10 man, 25 man, or 40 man; having an amount of characters equal to the raid ceiling would = "raidboxer"). The examples that I used were of Sam and Prepared, both of whom have teams largely comprised of shaman. And, while they both (especially Prepared) have other characters, at last glance, Sam runs all shaman and one paladin. A raidboxer would not be someone who only plays one character at a time, hence, that wouldn't make sense in the "boxer" context (which, I believe that we can all agree that someone who is touted as a "boxer" runs more than one character at a time).

Under that preface, my statements which questioned the viability and survival likelyhood of one person decimating bosses would hold true. Is it not true that one person playing 25 characters can single-handedly destroy Archimonde or any boss that requires a high level of coordination and percision? What about Mother Sharaz? What we have to understand here is that Blizzard intentionally builds encounters around certain classes; they have tried (sometimes for better or worse) to make it so every class has a role in a raid. That is not to say that a warrior tank should be required for a raid, but it is to say that a plate-type character (druid, warrior, paladin, and now even a Death Knight), should be required. Since encounters have been designed around these premises, it is imparative that you bring a "raid" composed of certain classes. Also, if you're level 80 and overgearing an encounter, most of these premises fail. When Oxynia was a "big deal" (excuse the slang), you didnt see 1 level 60 character soloing her; nor would you see 5 level 60 characters accomplishing the feat. People could not solo Oxynia until they learned the encounter and (eventually) outgeared/outleveled the encounter. The same holds true for every encounter in WoW. Would it be fun to take 25-40 characters at level 80 out to Doom Lord Kazzak and slay him in 10 casts? Sure. Does that mean that your 25-shaman team is viable for slaying the Lich King? No, and even if it were, if we look at the "end-game" encounters historacially, we can assume (yes, we can assume this by looking at past encounters) the encounter will surely require more than one tank.

Also, in my post, I had made a mention of the outdoor bosses, which I already pointed out - could be done by a raidboxer, with a team of x-class. Sorry if I didn't make my post as lucid as I would have intended; I was eating lunch at the time ;) . I think that I may have ruffled some of your feathers, as your personal attack of "thinking outside the box" was a bit unwarranted, given the context of my post and the subject of the original author. Again, if we could, as Vyndree put it, "brute force" bosses, most of us would complete the WoTLK expansion at a record pace. Also, every guild would be a "top" guild, if all that we needed to do was stand in one spot and press a nuke key.

Cheers.

[Bigfish]

Though I haven't boxed them all together yet, I have 9 accounts with a 70, all different classes, and I fully intend to raid with all 10 classes once WotLK hits and I get some more boxes. I can see the appeal of shamans, but I like the variety of having a little of everything.

[Sam DeathWalker]

Well I played enough EQ to know that you must have at least one tank. I did the bounce agro with 4 wizards years ago before most anyone else did and although its possible to get the mob to run from one guy to the other, having a tank is way better.

My setup is designed to allow me FULL control of ONE character, meaning I can play the tank just as good as a single person playing the tank. Of course all my other guys are limited to simple macros as a result (during boss mob type situations). So Shaman was the choice for their "auto target" heals and dps.

If I had a cleric that had auto heal the lowest HP person in 30 yards in EQ I would almost never die. That chain heal is so OP for boxers. And they do dps (BOTH Instant and high effeciency), have rez, mana regen spells (like chanter in EQ), and totem... I mean lol .... And with taruns I have stomp AND thunderstorm LOLLOLOLOL

There is nothing wrong with variety, my EQ crowd is many different classes, but Shaman in WoW just does basically everything (cept CC) you really need, sure others might do it better but with 26 toons simplicity is a good thing.

Shaman dps is what 75 percent of the best dps class? Shaman heal is what 75 percent of the best class? Why not take shaman, and ONE tank.

[Prepared]

Well I played enough EQ to know that you must have at least one tank. I did the bounce agro with 4 wizards years ago before most anyone else did and although its possible to get the mob to run from one guy to the other, having a tank is way better.

My setup is designed to allow me FULL control of ONE character, meaning I can play the tank just as good as a single person playing the tank. Of course all my other guys are limited to simple macros as a result (during boss mob type situations). So Shaman was the choice for their "auto target" heals and dps.

If I had a cleric that had auto heal the lowest HP person in 30 yards in EQ I would almost never die. That chain heal is so OP for boxers. And they do dps (BOTH Instant and high effeciency), have rez, mana regen spells (like chanter in EQ), and totem... I mean lol .... And with taruns I have stomp AND thunderstorm LOLLOLOLOL

There is nothing wrong with variety, my EQ crowd is many different classes, but Shaman in WoW just does basically everything (cept CC) you really need, sure others might do it better but with 26 toons simplicity is a good thing.

Shaman dps is what 75 percent of the best dps class? Shaman heal is what 75 percent of the best class? Why not take shaman, and ONE tank.


Excellent Sam. Great information and I must commend you on your Everquest (EQ) knowledge and loyalty to that game. Stay with it, get to level 85 in the latest EQ expansion and your World of Warcraft (WoW) characters will fall even farther behind. :)

[Vyndree]

As for 4 boxing, I went with 12 other people once.

4 + 12 = 16 people in a 25 man raid?

I'd say the instance was outgeared.

And yes, with the latest patch people outgear nearly every raid. IMO (and this is opinion) it's not an achievement if gear reduced the challenge. That's why Suvega's and my kara runs was done about a week after I hit 70, and pretty much everyone was in full blues.

Kara, during the intial BC launch, was brutal. I recall many wipes on Curator. Now, it's laughable -- people PUGed it thanks to badge/pvp gear and the easy ilvls PRIOR to 3.0, and with the recent 3.0 patch I've done ZUL'AMAN (which is harder than Kara) with 2 healers and only 1 prot-specced tank on a priest wearing at least 1/2 blues (she has, exactly, 5 purples -- 2 of which are the trinkets from the brewfest boss. She is wearing Incanter's Trousers ('http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27838'). I am not joking). Do I consider my priest in ZA to have achieved something worthwhile? Not really. ZA was nerfed to the ground and various classes were buffed and rebalanced for Wrath. Even in my blues -- and thanks to patch 3.0 -- I "outgeared" the challenge of that instance. Were I to have done this at the appropriate difficulty with an appropriately specced party (as ZA was tuned for talents pre-3.0), I would have no doubt that I wouldn't have even made it past the gauntlet.

In the gruul's run I linked earlier ('http://vboxing.net/v/tiki-view_blog_post.php?blogId=1&postId=25'), you'll notice...

.. I ended up coming away with my tier 4 pants ('http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29036'), which is a very nice upgrade considering my gear level.

I believe I actually UNDER-geared the instance (that was either my 1st or 2nd piece of t4) -- but that was balanced out since the group that took me was slightly overgeared (mid-SSC).

[Schwarz]

Vyndree did you guys/gals do the bear boss with one tank? I would think that the debuff from one phase to the next would be brutal. Who knows maybe people are killing him before he has a chance to goto bear.

[Vyndree]

Vyndree did you guys/gals do the bear boss with one tank? I would think that the debuff from one phase to the next would be brutal. Who knows maybe people are killing him before he has a chance to goto bear.

One specced tank. The other warrior wasn't prot, but managed just fine. (Actually, he didn't manage "just" fine... Over the course of the ZA he ended up dying... twice? His damage was rather spikey so it was sometimes hard to heal. We had a druid to brez, so it wasn't TOO bad.)

ZA was done with Ellay's 4 ele shaman (mostly honor/rep pvp gear, right?), Suvega's prot warrior (just a couple pieces of t6 from alt runs with our guild), my (blue geared) holy priest, a boomkin (kara gear, I think), Souca's resto shaman (I think he claimed that he was undergeared as well), Celestin's dps war, and Mickail's hunter.

[Sam DeathWalker]

Excellent Sam. Great information and I must commend you on your Everquest (EQ) knowledge and loyalty to that game. Stay with it, get to level 85 in the latest EQ expansion and your World of Warcraft (WoW) characters will fall even farther behind. Ya well can't have everything. But no way I'm going to let my EQ guys die. I doubt I will play them until the expansion after this one but Ill pay for them. WoW has lot of good things, but so does EQ.... they are not standing still by any means. So far WoW is still EQlite no matter how you slice it. I have to check RL stuffs some more but its possible I could spend even more then I do now. EQ is a $200 a month drag and thats not so bad, so I just have to outspend you on wow accounts and have $200 a month for my EQ guys.... not all that difficult ... We will see what the future brings. Im losing badly at WoW right now but .... like I say there was a time when Furor had more EQ power then I did, where is he now?

[valkry]

Valkry,

I'm going to have to side with Vyndree on this one and state that you misintrepreted my point. I was responding to the initial thread topic, "Raidboxers, why shamans?"; the subject in itself poses the question, "As a raidboxer, why would you select a team composed of all shaman?" To setup my response, I used examples of other "raid"boxers (raidboxer being a subjective word, but I would think that we can consider a raid boxer to be anyone who has enough characters to fill a "raid" - whether it be a 10 man, 25 man, or 40 man; having an amount of characters equal to the raid ceiling would = "raidboxer"). The examples that I used were of Sam and Prepared, both of whom have teams largely comprised of shaman. And, while they both (especially Prepared) have other characters, at last glance, Sam runs all shaman and one paladin. A raidboxer would not be someone who only plays one character at a time, hence, that wouldn't make sense in the "boxer" context (which, I believe that we can all agree that someone who is touted as a "boxer" runs more than one character at a time).

Under that preface, my statements which questioned the viability and survival likelyhood of one person decimating bosses would hold true. Is it not true that one person playing 25 characters can single-handedly destroy Archimonde or any boss that requires a high level of coordination and percision? What about Mother Sharaz? What we have to understand here is that Blizzard intentionally builds encounters around certain classes; they have tried (sometimes for better or worse) to make it so every class has a role in a raid. That is not to say that a warrior tank should be required for a raid, but it is to say that a plate-type character (druid, warrior, paladin, and now even a Death Knight), should be required. Since encounters have been designed around these premises, it is imparative that you bring a "raid" composed of certain classes. Also, if you're level 80 and overgearing an encounter, most of these premises fail. When Oxynia was a "big deal" (excuse the slang), you didnt see 1 level 60 character soloing her; nor would you see 5 level 60 characters accomplishing the feat. People could not solo Oxynia until they learned the encounter and (eventually) outgeared/outleveled the encounter. The same holds true for every encounter in WoW. Would it be fun to take 25-40 characters at level 80 out to Doom Lord Kazzak and slay him in 10 casts? Sure. Does that mean that your 25-shaman team is viable for slaying the Lich King? No, and even if it were, if we look at the "end-game" encounters historacially, we can assume (yes, we can assume this by looking at past encounters) the encounter will surely require more than one tank.

Also, in my post, I had made a mention of the outdoor bosses, which I already pointed out - could be done by a raidboxer, with a team of x-class. Sorry if I didn't make my post as lucid as I would have intended; I was eating lunch at the time ;) . I think that I may have ruffled some of your feathers, as your personal attack of "thinking outside the box" was a bit unwarranted, given the context of my post and the subject of the original author. Again, if we could, as Vyndree put it, "brute force" bosses, most of us would complete the WoTLK expansion at a record pace. Also, every guild would be a "top" guild, if all that we needed to do was stand in one spot and press a nuke key.

Cheers.
Actually, Ony was 5 manned at lvl 60...

Also, I don't see why you guys think my "think outside the box" line was hostile? If you understand/accept that I misinterpreted your post, then you must know that in that context it is hardly insulting. As I said, I thought you saidvirtually no bosses can be downed by 25 of X class...I believe there are a lot of bosses that are.

[TheBigBB]

If you want to get serious with the theorycrafting here, there's no advantage to having all shaman. The utility that even a few different classes now is huge. One priest gives fortitute to the entire raid and makes a much better main tank healer AND has smart casting AOE heals now with COH. One druid gives mark to the entire raid and brings a huge damage buff or aura to everyone. Even just these two classes alone would bring, what, 1500 life and 20% damage buff to your whole raid? And it's not like it's hard to setup a DPS sequence that works with the others. When the shaman cast a shock, druid casts a moonfire. When the shaman cast a LB, druid casts a wrath or starfire. Etc. Even on a small scale, it's not that difficult to setup. Now, this is mostly talking about PVE. I don't have ANY idea what a good PVP setup is going to look like now for a boxer.

[Suvega]

Simply put - totems. Seriously multi-class synergy by stacking totems and the fact that shaman are a hybrid class (heal and dps).

Coupled with a Paladin tank, they are all but unstoppable in PvE settings.

(sorry if I came off rude... this question has been asked many times and answered many times.... try using the search next time)


This is exactly it! Totems to lag out the PvPers! :) 4 times 32 totems (128) would surely slow down the other side in PvP combat in many different ways. For PvE, the totems would also help but in PvP, the totems help to slow down the other sides targetting as well as lag em out!

I donit' think this is a viable strategy :P

Especially considering the efficency of your spells as shaman, your AoE abilities, etc.
Thunderstorm helps, (for sure), but its on a cooldown (as with firenova totem).
Why not 36 mages and 4 CoH priests? or something to the matter. LOL mirror image would be way way -way- way way better then anything you can do now with shaman.



Next, Prepared, how are you going to handle targeting?

IMO if you were smart you would seperate your dps out into groups, and have each group have a /tar a /tar b /tar c macro for a section of hte alphabet.
Having 36 fire one chainllightning at one target seems like a huge waste.

[Vyndree]

Actually, Ony was 5 manned at lvl 60...

Not in appropriate gear. ;)

From what I remember when BC came out, some people still hung on to pieces of their t3 gear when they were in Kara (at level 70) just for the set bonuses.


Will 25 of one multiboxed class be able to raid a 25-man instance?
Depends. What are the boss mechanics? And if they are not ideal mechanics, do these shammies vastly outgear the content?

[thinus]

Tell them to follow the leader, they'll all face him and you can spread out from there.

Have you ever done Gruul? You are knocked back into a random location and snared. The raid has something like 5s to get completely spread out to avoid blowing each other up. You don't have time to follow and then spread out, you might not even be in range to follow. The problem is not just with your boxing team but your positioning relative to the rest of the raid as well. You simply cannot position each character properly in the time given. There is barely enough time to position just 1 character.

The only way you can do this as a boxer in a 25 man raid is if, like Valkery said, you can find spots where you can avoid the knockback for all your characters. It will be up to the rest of the raid to get the hell away from your clones. The closer two characters are together the more damage they take so a lot of the time the challenge is not to avoid the damage completely but to minimize the amount of damage you take.

What about the cave-ins? Or does it only hit melee or can it easily be healed through these days? Haven't done Gruul in forever.

[valkry]

Tell them to follow the leader, they'll all face him and you can spread out from there.

Have you ever done Gruul? You are knocked back into a random location and snared. The raid has something like 5s to get completely spread out to avoid blowing each other up. You don't have time to follow and then spread out, you might not even be in range to follow. The problem is not just with your boxing team but your positioning relative to the rest of the raid as well. You simply cannot position each character properly in the time given. There is barely enough time to position just 1 character.

The only way you can do this as a boxer in a 25 man raid is if, like Valkery said, you can find spots where you can avoid the knockback for all your characters. It will be up to the rest of the raid to get the hell away from your clones. The closer two characters are together the more damage they take so a lot of the time the challenge is not to avoid the damage completely but to minimize the amount of damage you take.

What about the cave-ins? Or does it only hit melee or can it easily be healed through these days? Haven't done Gruul in forever.
It can always be easily healed through...oh, sorry, that is assuming if the nubs actually decide to stop facerolling the keyboard mashing their dps buttons, look at their hp status every once in a while and actually gtfo of it.

Gruul is so easy when 3-4 people (ranged dps) each go to one of the boulders around the edge before the knockback then spread out during the 5 seconds of slowing, leaving the middle for the melee...25 man gruul wth no deaths is an awesome achievement imo :) (only done it once though, people stopped caring after he was on farm). The trick is to not spread out from everybody, but to make sure you are only in range of 1 person. With people paired up, you double the room to spread out in, and the dmg from 1 person nearby is like 1-3k max.

As for kara in t3...the top Chineese guild downed Illy D whilst still wearing t3. The speed in which they reached him also played a part too though lol.

[Vyndree]

What about the cave-ins? Or does it only hit melee or can it easily be healed through these days? Haven't done Gruul in forever.

They do indeed hit ranged.

[Tasty]

Depends. What are the boss mechanics? And if they are not ideal mechanics, do these shammies vastly outgear the content?

I'm hoping they make the raids in WotlK at least a little boxer friendly :) I don't mean entire tank n spank fights either

[Tasty]

Depends. What are the boss mechanics? And if they are not ideal mechanics, do these shammies vastly outgear the content?

I'm hoping they make the raids in WotlK at least a little boxer friendly :) I don't mean entire tank n spank fights eitherBlues have said they want raids fights to be less about aggro management and more about strategy and movement.

So... take that for what it is. Life could get harder for us.

Aggro management isn't all that hard for boxers is it? You don't have to yell over vent to stop dps you just stop pushing your lightning bolt button ;)

[valkry]

Depends. What are the boss mechanics? And if they are not ideal mechanics, do these shammies vastly outgear the content?

I'm hoping they make the raids in WotlK at least a little boxer friendly :) I don't mean entire tank n spank fights eitherBlues have said they want raids fights to be less about aggro management and more about strategy and movement.

So... take that for what it is. Life could get harder for us.
Sounds like Sunwell. And Blues have also said they won't be making any raids as rediculus as Sunwell again.