Post patch test run of my elemental 5 box. What happened??

[Arryth]

I did not get much time to test dps and such on the beta, or on the test realm before this last tuesdays patch..... However..

After getting my UI up and running again, respecing, and double checking that my gear was still relevant to the spec on my 5 box elemental shaman team.... I am left feeling sad, and appalled at the same time at the amount of dps I have lost.
It is coming out to be roughly a 20% + loss in my dps in pvp and pve. When I compaired its perfromance to my boomkin and frost mages teams, whom are both, not as well equipped as my Shamans.. I was shocked further. Their dps is now larger then my shaman team by a further margin of nearly 20%. Especially devastating is my Frost mage team. With them I am currently killing full season 4 geared players with single frost bolt volleys with OUT using a cool down or trinket.
Getting to my question... Is this an intended change, and can I expect this horrid performance on my shaman, and steller power on my mages and boomkins to remain reality at level 80? Is it time to retire the old shaman team, and go with the mages and druids permanently as my mains now?

[Schwarz]

I would like to offer the counterpoint that I didn't see a ~20% loss but an increase according to recount.

When I did my heroics pre 3.0 I was around 1100dps now that 3.0.2 hit I am sitting at 1300dps.

Do you have any +haste stuff? I am not sure but I have a feeling that this has something to do with my increase in dps.

[TheBigBB]

Maybe you need to adjust your spec or spell rotations?

[Multibocks]

with my current shaman spec I do a LB LB CL rotation (with more haste it could be LB CL as the cooldown is pretty low with talents) and my shaman lost about 100dps, not huge... but considering some of the dps numbers I see thrown around by druids/mage/rogue/warriors I don't feel so warm and fuzzy inside.

[magwo]

I agree, but only because of the immense buffs to damage output that many other classes have recevied. We are now fairly weak and fragile among the burst dps of retripalas and mages.

[Drakkun]

I posted this in another thread...

Blizzard has made elemental shaman a little underpowered at 70 because of the new spell lava burst at 75. They have balanced the spec around it and have based dps around lava burst at 80. So you will just have to hang in there until 75 to be on par with other classes dps.

[Multibocks]

I understand the above, however we get to sit at 70 for a month underpowered and then at 80 underpowered (even though some seem to think LvB will make up for it, it won't) Go check beta characters raids and cry when you see elemental shaman 1k dps below the rest of raid and barely above tanks. I'm not holding out that it will change, blue seems to think our damage is fine(even with many many reports of our dmg being low) so in that regard I started leveling alt teams.... just in case.

[Drakkun]

I understand the above, however we get to sit at 70 for a month underpowered and then at 80 underpowered (even though some seem to think LvB will make up for it, it won't) Go check beta characters raids and cry when you see elemental shaman 1k dps below the rest of raid and barely above tanks. I'm not holding out that it will change, blue seems to think our damage is fine(even with many many reports of our dmg being low) so in that regard I started leveling alt teams.... just in case.It will get adjusted, the developers have already said that they want all DPS classes and specs to be within 5% DPS of each other. So if elemental shaman are 10% behind the rest at 80, they will get buffed to be within 5%.

They have also already stated that the current status of DPS is not to be concerned about because this patch is balanced towards level 80 not 70.

[Multibocks]

I'm not holding my breath, they have multiple reports and every time a blue responds to a shaman thread it's usually something along the lines of "we are happy with elemental dps, in fact LB dps may be too high, oh and you have totems." Anyways, I saw the new build on beta and druid balance got BUFFED even more, ridiculous, but at the same time makes me happy I have a team of druids.

[TheBigBB]

I'm going to report that the shaman is doing 5k DPS more than everyone else at level 80 and that Blizzard said they are going to buff shaman until they're so good that everyone will roll one. Oh, sorry, I have no links. You'll just have to trust me. :rolleyes:

[Multibocks]

Ok go here forums.elitistjerks.com and then go to the class forums and then look at the elemental thread. I would link it but I got banned for a week (didnt read forum rules.) Go ahead and do that, I tempted to leave some parting choice words for you, but I guess I will be bigger than that. Enjoy your read, those people break down classes to the most miniscule detail and it's a great read.

here: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=11228544155&sid=2000
and here(shaman problems in general) http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=11162876752&sid=2000
another http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=11296499789&sid=2000

oh and here's a dps report of Patchwerk on beta
http://gwai.org/Stasis/Beta/sws-patchwerk-1223692691/index.html
this is a stationary all out dps fight, and where do shaman come in? 10th, woohoo!

p.s. I guess I'm not bigger than I thought, so I will part with this :rolleyes:

another edit:
newest beta build has a nice small buff for shaman 75+

Glyph of Flame Shock - Increases the duration of your Flame Shock ability by 6 sec and it is not consumed by casting Lava Burst. (Old - 3 seconds, didn't prevent Lava Burst from consuming it)
which is pretty cool, however go look at all the druid balance buffs. It's insane.

[TheBigBB]

Ok go here forums.elitistjerks.com and then go to the class forums and then look at the elemental thread. I would link it but I got banned for a week (didnt read forum rules.) Go ahead and do that, I tempted to leave some parting choice words for you, but I guess I will be bigger than that. Enjoy your read, those people break down classes to the most miniscule detail and it's a great read.

here: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=11228544155&sid=2000
and here(shaman problems in general) http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=11162876752&sid=2000
another http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=11296499789&sid=2000

oh and here's a dps report of Patchwerk on beta
http://gwai.org/Stasis/Beta/sws-patchwerk-1223692691/index.html
this is a stationary all out dps fight, and where do shaman come in? 10th, woohoo!

p.s. I guess I'm not bigger than I thought, so I will part with this :rolleyes:I said what I said to make a point, not to be a jerk. I said nothing inflammatory about you as a person, only about your post. You did, in fact, mischaracterize what the Blizzard posters said and twisted their words to fit your point. Linking those quotes adds a lot to the discussion, paraphrasing them into your own words doesn't. Just because the Blizzard posters in question aren't here to defend themselves doesn't make it okay or even nice to misquote them. If this all offends you, then I can't say I'm surprised you got banned from another forum.

EDIT: By the way, I actually think you're probably right about druids getting buffed too much and shaman not being equal, however, the expansion is still quite some weeks away, and a lot has changed in a very short amount of time. I'm 100% sure they aren't done balancing the game yet.

[Multibocks]

About what blizzard said, one of the blue actually said we do too much LB damage and parted with the "totems are now 5 mins" line (as if that is a buff to our damage.) I'm just pointing this out and harping on it, because nothing has been done for 2ish months in beta about Shaman Elemental dps and I'm starting to get concerned that we will be the "loladin" (ya know before Rets were gods) spec in Lich King.

here's another thread:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=11296561808&sid=2000
being barely above tanks in dps is not what I consider acceptable.

Funny thing is, even if nothing is done I still have a moonkin group that I can fall back to for MBing. I just like my shaman a lot is all.

[Rudi89]

I'm just pointing this out and harping on it, because nothing has been done for 2ish months in beta about Shaman Elemental dps and I'm starting to get concerned that we will be the "loladin" (ya know before Rets were gods) spec in Lich King. Yep, my concern is after playing and raiding as a mage for TBC that Blizz is going to have the same flawed math/scenarios/modeling that led them to nerf mages so badly heading into TBC but in this case apply it to shammies heading into WotLK.

[Drakkun]

Per http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=10952075297&sid=2000


Lava Burst and Lightning Bolt -- And now for a few words on Elemental damage. One of the things we were trying to do to make Elemental dps more interesting was to have a Lava Burst + Flameshock variant. We also themed some new deep talents to support this play style. The problem is that lightning still seems to do more damage than fire, which in turn makes the new talents feel lame because they benefit fire and not lightning.

Now we think that Lava Burst is doing appropriate damage for its cost and if anything Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning are a little too good. (Remember they benefit from Curse of the Elements and similar spells now.) However, nerfing lightning would make it harder to level as well as making 3.0.2 kind of brutal for Elemental shamans, since Lava Burst is level 75. Hurting lightning would feel like a flat out nerf, and even though you'd partially make up for it at higher level, overall we think this would feel, um, yucky. So no big changes to lightning spells.

We talked a lot about just buffing Lava Burst and a deep fire-based talent or two. This will make Lava Burst too good on paper, but it might work out okay in the game itself. We'll just have to see. We aren't 100% sold on this course of action, so I'll update when we decide for sure.

[Drakkun]

About what blizzard said, one of the blue actually said we do too much LB damage and parted with the "totems are now 5 mins" line (as if that is a buff to our damage.) I'm just pointing this out and harping on it, because nothing has been done for 2ish months in beta about Shaman Elemental dps and I'm starting to get concerned that we will be the "loladin" (ya know before Rets were gods) spec in Lich King.

here's another thread:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=11296561808&sid=2000
being barely above tanks in dps is not what I consider acceptable.

Funny thing is, even if nothing is done I still have a moonkin group that I can fall back to for MBing. I just like my shaman a lot is all.Reading the post, they aren't maximizing their dps with the rotations they are using.

This is close, but in the wrong order...
Date: 10-12-2008
http://wmo.ngacn.cc/combat/587142 Boorah: 3075 combat dps
Possible dps rotation: LBx2 CL FlS > LvB. Some variation there of.
Top dps: 4364 (rogue combat swords spec) It would be higher DPS to go FlS LBx2 CL LvB. Don't forget the dot from FlS is stronger now and will increase your DPS while casting other spells. To waste a FlS immediately with a LvB doesn't make sense.

[Multibocks]

1. Read the EJ forum for a correct rotation.
2. LvB being buffed 10% in damage is actually BAD. Hello scaling? Ya we miss you. Also, due to cooldown, LvB will only make up a small portion of our damage. Also notice that they said LB and CL are "a little too good," in the blue post you linked (which btw is old in terms of beta posts.) Nerfing a coefficient means we start off good and then become bad, comparitively.
3. EJ have spreadsheets and raid dps reports that are very similar to what was posted from the official forums.
4. Blue has asked that shamans in beta supply WWS of raids to find out what is the disconnect between their "spreadsheets" and what shamans are getting in beta. This is the latest post from blue, but again I wonder if they think that 10% buff to LvB damage will cover it. I'm waiting for new WWS reports to start coming in.

oh and something I didnt address from TheBigBB, I don't have a problem with people questioning my sources. Not at all, in fact I love that every EJ thread has tons of supporting work and I actually follow the links to make sure people are doing their homework. What I do have a problem with is people taking shots. Seriously did you think making up that post and following up with :rolleyes: was gonna make us friends? Seriously? Maybe you should ponder how you are coming across next time.

[TheBigBB]

oh and something I didnt address from TheBigBB, I don't have a problem with people questioning my sources. Not at all, in fact I love that every EJ thread has tons of supporting work and I actually follow the links to make sure people are doing their homework. What I do have a problem with is people taking shots. Seriously did you think making up that post and following up with :rolleyes: was gonna make us friends? Seriously? Maybe you should ponder how you are coming across next time.You took a shot at the Blue posters, which was uncalled for. You don't need to do that to make your point. Just because most of what you are saying is backed by strong support from EJ doesn't mean it's okay to make up that Blizzard is belligerent and unhelpful on this issue. I was very serious about my response, and talking down to me and babying me and threatening to personally insult me isn't going to change my mind or resolve it. I don't care if you're mad that I called you out. I wonder how you would like if I paraphrased your words in another thread to make a serious point about you. Think about it.

[Arryth]

I would like to offer the counterpoint that I didn't see a ~20% loss but an increase according to recount.

When I did my heroics pre 3.0 I was around 1100dps now that 3.0.2 hit I am sitting at 1300dps.

Do you have any +haste stuff? I am not sure but I have a feeling that this has something to do with my increase in dps. I have some +spell haste, but did not make an attempt to stack it... Ill try that out this week and see if it helps. :)

[Arryth]

I'm not holding my breath, they have multiple reports and every time a blue responds to a shaman thread it's usually something along the lines of "we are happy with elemental dps, in fact LB dps may be too high, oh and you have totems." Anyways, I saw the new build on beta and druid balance got BUFFED even more, ridiculous, but at the same time makes me happy I have a team of druids. Amen on that one brother.... Multiple teams to be resistant to the nerf bat is the way of the future I am afraid. Fortunately.. its only getting that first team that is any kind of challange, once one is done, the others come eazy peazy.

[Arryth]

I'm going to report that the shaman is doing 5k DPS more than everyone else at level 80 and that Blizzard said they are going to buff shaman until they're so good that everyone will roll one. Oh, sorry, I have no links. You'll just have to trust me. :rolleyes: Was that strictly necessary? I get the feeling that you are implying that I'm fudging my data. If thats the case, Ill run my experiments again later this week and post the actual numbers and methodology. This is not the general wow forums here friend, we do not as a rule post results in error, or deliberately fabricate. On this forum, a non official wow forum, such would be pointless in any event.
If that was not the point of your post, I apologise for misunderstanding ahead of time. :)

[Arryth]

Per http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=10952075297&sid=2000



Lava Burst and Lightning Bolt -- And now for a few words on Elemental damage. One of the things we were trying to do to make Elemental dps more interesting was to have a Lava Burst + Flameshock variant. We also themed some new deep talents to support this play style. The problem is that lightning still seems to do more damage than fire, which in turn makes the new talents feel lame because they benefit fire and not lightning.

Now we think that Lava Burst is doing appropriate damage for its cost and if anything Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning are a little too good. (Remember they benefit from Curse of the Elements and similar spells now.) However, nerfing lightning would make it harder to level as well as making 3.0.2 kind of brutal for Elemental shamans, since Lava Burst is level 75. Hurting lightning would feel like a flat out nerf, and even though you'd partially make up for it at higher level, overall we think this would feel, um, yucky. So no big changes to lightning spells.

We talked a lot about just buffing Lava Burst and a deep fire-based talent or two. This will make Lava Burst too good on paper, but it might work out okay in the game itself. We'll just have to see. We aren't 100% sold on this course of action, so I'll update when we decide for sure. This ^ is what worries me.. they consider other classes buffs in our dps calculations. This is just plain stupid on the part of developers. How many of you cruise with a spare warlock in your back pocket? How can they justify our loss of dps for an individual shaman, based on the theory that we might have a warlock with us. The more I read on this the more I feel that elemental as a spec is going to get screwed badly in the expansion.

[Arryth]

oh and something I didnt address from TheBigBB, I don't have a problem with people questioning my sources. Not at all, in fact I love that every EJ thread has tons of supporting work and I actually follow the links to make sure people are doing their homework. What I do have a problem with is people taking shots. Seriously did you think making up that post and following up with :rolleyes: was gonna make us friends? Seriously? Maybe you should ponder how you are coming across next time.You took a shot at the Blue posters, which was uncalled for. You don't need to do that to make your point. Just because most of what you are saying is backed by strong support from EJ doesn't mean it's okay to make up that Blizzard is belligerent and unhelpful on this issue. I was very serious about my response, and talking down to me and babying me and threatening to personally insult me isn't going to change my mind or resolve it. I don't care if you're mad that I called you out. I wonder how you would like if I paraphrased your words in another thread to make a serious point about you. Think about it. Blizzard had a strong track record for allowing inequities between classes run for a unduly long period of time. They also have the track record of not excepting the over or under power of a class, until said class takes drastic protest actions. IE the prayer of mending change, to push it onto a 30 second cool down, and the resulting priest revolt, of which I participated in (I got a 3 day ban, and am proud of it). We crashed multiple servers over a course of a few days in that protest, and it got results, the 30 second cool down was reversed, and lowered to something much more reasonable.
To say that Blizzard has at times been belligerent to some classes in the past is a perfectly fair statement. They have been quite nasty. So the ocasional angry shot at them is fair and justified, especially in light of what Shaman as a class are experiencing at this moment. We really did get hit hard. It looks, though, that we will have no option but to bend over and take it until at least late November when enough real game data from the wild can be accumulated to prove/disprove our point.