Clickboxer - new key broadcasting software

[Sam DeathWalker]

Although I am using Keyclone and am very happy with it and recomend it to everyone, looks like some competion is in da works:

"Also, be aware that it is just as easy to set up hotkeys to relay your keystrokes, and it is possible to set this up to relay keystrokes to other PCs, and can also send mouse movement and clicks, not just keys."

http://www.lavishsoft.com/joomla/

Looks like it follows the one click one action rule though.

Because its a single xml file seems that its not bannable I don't know, but it clearly dosn't do more then Keyclone.

DO NOT use his innerspace or any other products other then WinEQ2 as da ban stick might come yur way. Also if this require Innerspace to run I would avoid it, I have to get to work so no time to dig in.

[RobinGBrown]

Great...

Now Lax has got his dirty digits into multiboxing it's only a matter of time before we all get banned. I wouldn't trust the guy who dealt in a major bot to produce a multiboxing tool that was legit.

[elsegundo]

Competition?


if its from a company that makes botting software, or made botting software, i wouldnt use it still. its the principle.

would you buy candy from a tobacco company if you were against tobacco? no offense to the smokers. just an analogy.

[Arryth]

Great...

Now Lax has got his dirty digits into multiboxing it's only a matter of time before we all get banned. I wouldn't trust the guy who dealt in a major bot to produce a multiboxing tool that was legit. This ^ Stick with Keyclone, hes the only legit game in town. I do not, nor ever will trust a maker of bots with the safety of my accounts. I could be wrong, but do you want to count the existence of YOUR account on that?

[Souca]

would you buy candy from a tobacco company if you were against tobacco? no offense to the smokers. just an analogy.

Until recently, Phillip Morris owned Kraft and Nabisco, so you probably have bought candy from a tobacco company. That said, I plan to avoid products by Lax even if they are completely legit.

Rob/KeyClone has been a strong member of the MB community and I intend to support him.

- Souca -

[Arryth]

would you buy candy from a tobacco company if you were against tobacco? no offense to the smokers. just an analogy.

Until recently, Phillip Morris owned Kraft and Nabisco, so you probably have bought candy from a tobacco company. That said, I plan to avoid products by Lax even if they are completely legit.

Rob/KeyClone has been a strong member of the MB community and I intend to support him.

- Souca -

Agree 100%. Rob is the bomb. :)

[Xzin]

Innerspace, from Lax, etc is a very well known botting software platform. I can see how he would want a piece of the pie but he has a very bad reputation due to the involvement as an alternative to Glider. I have no doubt he is an excellent coder but I am concerned that the reputation of his other software packages are going to taint the reputation of this software.

Joomla sounds a lot like [Addon] Jamba - An assistant for multiboxers. 6th Update - 0.3a released. ('http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=12887') - slightly confusing perhaps.

[elsegundo]

would you buy candy from a tobacco company if you were against tobacco? no offense to the smokers. just an analogy.

Until recently, Phillip Morris owned Kraft and Nabisco, so you probably have bought candy from a tobacco company. That said, I plan to avoid products by Lax even if they are completely legit.

Rob/KeyClone has been a strong member of the MB community and I intend to support him.

- Souca -OMG i never knew!! but then again, im not against tobacco... for adults. people can choose whatever they want to put in their bodies. its their bodies, afterall.
/thread derailment

[zanthor]

Innerspace, from Lax, etc is a very well known botting software platform. I can see how he would want a piece of the pie but he has a very bad reputation due to the involvement as an alternative to Glider. I have no doubt he is an excellent coder but I am concerned that the reputation of his other software packages are going to taint the reputation of this software.

Joomla sounds a lot like [Addon] Jamba - An assistant for multiboxers. 6th Update - 0.3a released. ('http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=12887') - slightly confusing perhaps.http://www.joomla.org/

Joomla sounds an aweful lot like the portal software that the sites running...

The product is called "Clickboxer" and isn't a product, it's a free XML file that you could run on Innerspace to multibox with instead of developing your own script.

As for anyone who is AntiLax because he wrote a tool that was used for botting...

http://coreygilmore.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/beating_a_dead_horse.jpg

http://www.manekineko.us/catalog/images/product/exlax_120pills_enlarge.jpg

[oMek]

innerspace made by lax is NOT a bot, it is used for MANY games and not just to bot. there are tons of legit reasons to use innerspace. people just assume its a bot, the main bot used by innerspace was "openbot" which lax has nothing to do with.

[Vyndree]

http://www.joomla.org/

Joomla sounds an aweful lot like the portal software that the sites running...

That's what I first thought as well.

Lavishsoft was involved with the whole Glider vs Blizzard Entertainment legal thing that just recently was ruled in Blizzard's favor.

I would not feel comfortable trusting that a software company that was heavily involved in Glider (along with its own botting endeavours) with making a product thats use is inline with WoW ToU/Eula. That's my personal opinion, for those who are about to jump on me for making some sort of official dual-boxing.com announcement. My personal opinion extends to things like AHK as well (which can also program delays/bots if used improperly). I believe Innerspace (minus the bot) was marketed as a "safe" product to use with world of warcraft, and users of that product (who did not use the botting scripts) still got banned due to Innerspace sniffing around at WoW's memory -- I don't remember my source for this so take it with a grain of salt.

In any case, since the subject is "vs Keyclone" all I can say is that Rob (Keyclone) has made it very clear that he has no plans to create any features that could be used (or misused) to break the WoW ToU/Eula. That right there is a feature in and of its own.

[Lax]

Hi Sam, happy to see you mentioning my products here :D We recently had a conversation along these lines in another thread. ClickBoxer does in fact require Inner Space to function, and I will try to clear up your confusion as to what Inner Space is all about, while I also respond to the others.

First a quick description of ClickBoxer, and why it exists:
ClickBoxer is a demonstration and sample interface to show, much like in the video on the Multi-boxing with Inner Space link, that it is both possible and simplistic to create an in-game interface to help multi-box. The interface can be customized to your heart's content, can fade in and out, minimalist, have a thousand buttons, or whatever makes you happy. Inner Space has had the feature set since its release, but most people, like those in this thread, tended to see Inner Space's capabilities as meaning "this is great for botting". It's also great for many other things, and in fact was originally going to BE the next generation of WinEQ 2. This is also not the first multi-boxing UI for Inner Space, as others have been posted on another site (the one Suribusi uses was customized from an interface posted a few years back). It's just the first one simplified into a single XML interface file and promoted on the site. I've had plenty of people send me e-mails thanking me for ClickBoxer, used with World of Warcraft and other games.

... and on down the thread.
RobinGBRown, I find it particularly funny that anyone would say

Now Lax has got his dirty digits into multiboxing it's only a matter of time before we all get banned. I wouldn't trust the guy who dealt in a major bot to produce a multiboxing tool that was legit. As the Original Poster would tell you, I have been into multiboxing for many years. Sam has been using (or used) WinEQ 2 for years for window management. To say what you're saying, RobinGBrown, is simply ignorant. And what "major bot" did I deal in? I would love to hear what you think I'm involved in.

To sum up the discussion in the other thread, Inner Space is not a bot. It has never been a bot. It has never been marketed as a bot. There is a difference between Inner Space vanilla, and Inner Space for botting World of Warcraft. One you download from the web site Sam linked. The other requires you to seek out and find custom software, not produced by the company that produces Inner Space, elsewhere -- one to protect you from Warden, one to install World of Warcraft libraries in Inner Space, and then you would additionally download one of the actual bots. None of that stuff is available or promoted from the Inner Space web site. In fact, the software that would protect you from Warden has not been available for months, and you can assume that Blizzard is well aware of that fact.

Inner Space vanilla does not violate the World of Warcraft Terms of Service -- and violating the ToS is what gets you banned. Many products CAN be used to violate the Terms of Service, including many of the tools people discuss on this site, and that of course includes Inner Space. However, it is up to you NOT to violate the ToS. Warden is not seeking out nor banning for Inner Space, and people on these forums do reinforce that on their own and have been using Inner Space in World of Warcraft for months. However, if you load the custom software described in the previous paragraph (any of which DOES violate the ToS) into Inner Space, you can expect a ban within 20 minutes, so I'm told by the people who have tried. Personally, I play the old fashioned way, I don't load the software described when I use Inner Space in World of Warcraft, and my account is in good standing without even a Warning.

There is nothing more legitimate about KeyClone than Inner Space or Octopus or any other product. To say there is is simply silly. They can ban for any of them at any time, if they wish to do so. Tomorrow they could change their minds and decide to ban all KeyClone users. They will not likely ban for KeyClone, Inner Space, or Octopus, however, because none of the three violates the Terms of Service to my knowledge. Besides, Blizzard is not trying to alienate their own customer base, and multi-boxing is not an activity they want to eradicate. All I can say at this point is that I have had these kinds of conversations with my attorney.

You guys can support Rob all you like, that's up to you and there is obviously nothing wrong with it, but as I believe the community rules state, "Community hating" is not allowed on dual-boxing.com. I'm also told that Rob and others received the same hatorade treatment when they started posting on dual-boxing.com. I have gotten some private messages, from people who originally posted on the previous thread hating on Inner Space, thanking me for explaining the difference between Inner Space and the added software that would have to be downloaded elsewhere, as they had no idea that there was any distinction. Some of them are now learning more about Inner Space by way of free trial, or even paid for a subscription.

You don't need to think it's as safe as KeyClone or Octopus if you don't want to. But don't go spreading FUD.

[eqjoe]

There is a fundamental truth that some of us need to understand.....

InnerSpace is not a bot. InnerSpace works with most games and is used for things like adding a Ventrilo UI to EQ2, EvE, Vangard, AoC and yes, even WoW. InnerSpace can NOT even be part of a bot for any game without the use of extra software known as an extension. Lax has nothing to do with extensions. InnerSpace and Lavishsoft do not promote the use of any extension that could be used for botting.

InnerSpace does one thing that none of the other key broadcasting tools here do. IS allows you to broadcast keystrokes to many clients, sure, but you can build your own UI which allows you to initiate those broadcasts by clicking a UI button. Rather than broadcasting the keystroke when you push "F" that is assigned to all your clients to a macro that runs the macro "/follow BigUglyTank", you can click a UI element that simply broadcasts "/follow BigUglyTank" to all your clients. You no longer have the need to create client macros unless you really want to. You are no longer limited to they number of spare keys on your keyboard.....

-j

[Lax]

Lavishsoft was involved with the whole Glider vs Blizzard Entertainment legal thing that just recently was ruled in Blizzard's favor.
I would not feel comfortable trusting that a software company that was heavily involved in Glider (along with its own botting endeavours) with making a product thats use is inline with WoW ToU/Eula. In the interest of full disclosure:

Neither of these are quite true. Firstly, I was never heavily involved in Glider. In 2006 I made a deal with MDY to provide him with protection from Warden. That is not Lavish Software, that is me individually, there is a difference and Lavish Software does not produce nor market Warden protection. Obviously, yes, there is a link between me and Lavish Software, so you can consider that the link, but the deal was not between Lavish and MDY. What MDY has received to date is information. I told them how to fix their problem at the time to stop their users from getting banned. The rest of the deal was to provide MDY with technology to protect their users on a continual basis, however the technology was not yet provided due to escalations of the court case, and Glider has never used any of my code. That is the extent of my involvement with Glider.

Secondly, the court case is not over. It goes to trial in January. There has been a lot of talk about the $6,000,000, but it is stipulated damages. Basically that means that if damages are awarded at trial, that is the number both sides agreed upon. There is no guarantee that damages will be awarded, and MDY will of course try to appeal in a higher court that does have the authority to overturn the precedent case or cases in the 9th circuit that the judge noted he had to follow.

I was deposed in November 2007 with regards to the extent of my involvement with MDY. Excerpts of my deposition have been used by Blizzard as exhibits in their case. I sat and spoke with Shane McGee, Blizzard's legal counsel (forgive me if this is the wrong term for Mr. McGee, as Blizzard also has an internal legal team afaik), as well as Lance Venable, MDY's legal counsel, at that deposition for a few hours. The deposition was cut short, because Shane McGee had assumed that I must have used Glider at some point, and that I could answer questions about its function or purpose. I have never used Glider, and went on record with that under oath, and I couldn't answer the most basic questions about it other than "it's a bot". But, we did chat for some time in my deposition about Inner Space, ISXWarden, ISXWoW, and bots. Suffice it to say that he knows more about it now than most of the people on these forums, and that as Blizzard's legal counsel, he probably spoke with them about it and/or showed them the entire transcript of my deposition.

And after all of this, they're not banning for Inner Space vanilla, if that is any consolation.

I have produced and distributed multi-boxing software for much longer than these forums have existed. I would love to hear anyone claim that I put features in WinEQ 2 to get them banned. As I explained on the other thread, it would be a very bad business decision for me to implement features in any of my software that I am promoting as "at least as safe to use as KeyClone and Octopus" that would get anyone banned. As I have been in business for 4 and a half years now, I don't see that happening any time soon, as I've been running a legitimate business the entire time.

[zanthor]

Dead horse... really guys...

AutoHotKey has an easily available fishing bot out... using this will get you banned. Using AutoHotKey will not. Same fish, different scales.

[Souca]

Dead horse... really guys...

AutoHotKey has an easily available fishing bot out... using this will get you banned. Using AutoHotKey will not. Same fish, different scales.

I don't use AutoHotKey because it has the capacity to run scripts. IS also has the capacity to run scripts. It's not a matter of whether IS or AHK can be used within the TOS/EULA for me; it's that they come with features built in that can be turned on to violate them.



Automation (Scripting) and Commands - Inner Space features a scriptable command shell through our LavishScript engine. This can be accessed through the Console and in various other ways. Inner Space also provides .NET 2.0 support in process.

From http://www.lavishsoft.com/wiki/index.php/Inner_Space#Kernel ('http://www.lavishsoft.com/wiki/index.php/Inner_Space#Kernel')



Run existing AutoIt v2 scripts and enhance them with new capabilities.

From http://www.autohotkey.com/ ('http://www.autohotkey.com/')

If I have gotten something wrong in the above post, please provide me with a correction and a source. I don't want to spread misinformation or FUD.

- Souca -

[oMek]

Dead horse... really guys...

AutoHotKey has an easily available fishing bot out... using this will get you banned. Using AutoHotKey will not. Same fish, different scales.

I don't use AutoHotKey because it has the capacity to run scripts. IS also has the capacity to run scripts. It's not a matter of whether IS or AHK can be used within the TOS/EULA for me; it's that they come with features built in that can be turned on to violate them.



Automation (Scripting) and Commands - Inner Space features a scriptable command shell through our LavishScript engine. This can be accessed through the Console and in various other ways. Inner Space also provides .NET 2.0 support in process.

From http://www.lavishsoft.com/wiki/index.php/Inner_Space#Kernel



Run existing AutoIt v2 scripts and enhance them with new capabilities.

From http://www.autohotkey.com/

If I have gotten something wrong in the above post, please provide me with a correction and a source. I don't want to spread misinformation or FUD.

- Souca -

yes they can run scrips, that is upto the USER to run them or not. if you break the TOS and get banned via IS that is your decision and your fault.

and dont forget IS was not made for WoW, ALOT of other directX games that IS is used for run "scripts" which do not violate TOS rules.

INNER SPACE IS A DIRECTX PLATFORM!!

if you dont like it.. dont use it, simple. but dont go around spewin hate for IS and lax.. its uncalled for. if you want to hate on a bot go yell at mmoglider users, aka wowglider.

[Souca]

if you dont like it.. dont use it, simple. but dont go around spewin hate for IS and lax.. its uncalled for. if you want to hate on a bot go yell at mmoglider users, aka wowglider.

I don't recall ever spewing hate. I made a statement and provided a basis for my opinion.

- Souca -

[oMek]

if you dont like it.. dont use it, simple. but dont go around spewin hate for IS and lax.. its uncalled for. if you want to hate on a bot go yell at mmoglider users, aka wowglider.

I don't recall ever spewing hate. I made a statement and provided a basis for my opinion.

- Souca -yes, im sorry that wasent aimed at you. i just happend to quote your post and then went on alittle rant. it was for some of the other people in this thread.

[eqjoe]

Dead horse... really guys...

AutoHotKey has an easily available fishing bot out... using this will get you banned. Using AutoHotKey will not. Same fish, different scales.

QFT and to the point.

-j

[Aethon]

Hey, don't hate on Glider, it got me and several people I know into legitamate multiboxing from botting. Well, that and RaF, the only reason I botted was for another alt. Never did any BG botting, or farming or other crap. Hate on the people that use it to farm battlegrounds with poor profiles (I'll be honest, some of those bots do way more HK's and damage then I can by hand) and hate on the ones that keep killing the mobs that drop primals. (I noticed botters don't really keep the prices of mats low, I just always thought they did)

[Sam DeathWalker]

Logictech G15, Norstrom N52 and Siateke Pro Garmmer (not sure I got those right but you know what I mean), can all be used to insert pauses between casts or whatever which is bannable and no one is suggesting you don't use them because of that. A person can easily cheat in WoW with a G15, so based on the fact that Logitech puts out a product that allows you to cheat in wow you are not going to buy ANY logitech product lol ....

WinEQ2 is not bannable in EQ.

I recommend WinEQ2 to anyone who plays EQ, and I recommend Keyclone to anyone who plays WoW. When I have time ill look into any new product and if its legal and usefull I am sure I will use it.

Ya no doubt many would find some of the products Lax has very questionable, (and I would be wary of using IS myself), but so what I say. He is going ligit with some appaently ligit products, why not help him out.

Of course Rob and Keyclone have both also been spectacular, but its the strenght of the products that will convince me one way or the other, not the history of who made them.

Ok lets assume that plain vinilla IS is ligit, why allow hooks into it that lets it be quesionable. No one can hook into WinEQ2 so WinEQ2 is ALWAYS ligit. Sell clickboxer as a standalone by combining its code into whatever IS code is needed to run then stripping out the IS stuff that allows hooks. I think the model you used with WinEQ2 is the best.

[elsegundo]

I have gotten some private messages, from people who originally posted on the previous thread hating on Inner Space, thanking me for explaining the difference between Inner Space and the added software that would have to be downloaded elsewhere, as they had no idea that there was any distinction.ok thank you very much for the reply. it really has explained a lot regarding this matter. and im glad a lot of people are chiming in as well, as i know there are quite a few people reading this who are pretty clueless as to what the program actually does.

[Lax]

Ok lets assume that plain vinilla IS is ligit, why allow hooks into it that lets it be quesionable. No one can hook into WinEQ2 so WinEQ2 is ALWAYS ligit. Sell clickboxer as a standalone by combining its code into whatever IS code is needed to run then stripping out the IS stuff that allows hooks. I think the model you used with WinEQ2 is the best.The point of Inner Space is that it is an open platform, for any type of in-game development. This means that people developing applications like keyclone, like octopus, like clickboxer, like X-Fire for that matter, features like Picture-in-Picture and so on, can use a common platform and not have to worry about developing the inner architecture. It means that developing those applications does not take an immense amount of skill, thus the demonstration of ClickBoxer, a complete application in itself that can be incredibly useful. It means that in due time, there will be dozens of new applications like these, that can be used together in Inner Space, along with a bunch of other tools (such as the Ventrilo interface I mentioned).

However, the next generation of WinEQ 2, called Cerberus, is in development. It will provide all of the features people are talking about here between my products and others, and will only include Lavish-developed features (cannot be extended, as with WinEQ 2, and this will include improved PIP, tiling, key distribution in any fashion, support for other input devices, a Ventrilo interface, and lots of others). That is both good and bad, because the feature set will rely entirely on me, and there will undoubtedly be a host of features created by Inner Space users that will not make it into Cerberus simply for that fact. But, it will serve to allay fear of banning for some of the population. At some point soon I will have other more interesting news.

[Xzin]

Lax,

I consider myself a fairly intelligent person. But what EXACTLY does Innerspace let you do? I have been to the website and downloaded it and tested it. You are clearly an intelligent and capable coder and I want to give IS a fair analysis rather than jump to conclusions on it. I follow and generally agree with you that IS is not in and of itself a botting tool. It unfairly (?) gets a bad wrap due to its association with plugins but the last time I went to your website and took a look at IS, it just wasn't clear to me EXACTLY what it was. I think that is where some of the confusion comes about. It is a software (DirectX?) development platform for what exactly? What EXACTLY does it let you do? I have yet to really figure that out and combine that with the fact that people can and have written some TOS/EULA violating plugins for it, one tends to jump to the conclusion that IS is an inherently "bad" software. Bad in the eyes of Blizzard anyway. But please - can you explain to me exactly what it is in simple terms? What can IS do as an example?

P.S. I don't like how it (and KeyClone) phones home.

[Xzin]

The point of Inner Space is that it is an open platform, for any type of in-game development. This means that people developing applications like keyclone, like octopus, like clickboxer, like X-Fire for that matter, features like Picture-in-Picture and so on, can use a common platform and not have to worry about developing the inner architecture. It means that developing those applications does not take an immense amount of skill, thus the demonstration of ClickBoxer, a complete application in itself that can be incredibly useful.

Well that kind of helps explain it a bit. Speeds up the coding process because you are not starting from scratch but are instead working from a prebuilt framework. Less portability though, I would assume?

[Vyndree]

Dead horse... really guys...

AutoHotKey has an easily available fishing bot out... using this will get you banned. Using AutoHotKey will not. Same fish, different scales.

That's why (at least in my post) I made it clear that it's my PERSONAL OPINION. I, PERSONALLY, would never use any product that would allow me to unwittingly stumble my way into the area of botting.

As a hardware boxer, I've pretty much taken it to the extreme. ;) There is no way I can program a delay into my setup. There is no way that I could automatically make actions with my setup.

If there's a way to accidentally trip over myself and end up with a bannable action using AHK, InnerSpace, whatever... I, personally, want no part in it. Many people use AHK, G15s, and the like without issue -- I just don't prefer not to.

[Lax]

Well that kind of helps explain it a bit. Speeds up the coding process because you are not starting from scratch but are instead working from a prebuilt framework. Less portability though, I would assume? Exactly, it takes only minutes, and only a little bit of knowledge, in order to set up ClickBoxer or a new interface like it. Other things obviously would take more work and knowledge, but these programs can be as simple or as complex as anyone wants. If you want to set up round-robin key distribution, Inner Space provides everything you need in order to do it. If you want to set up Picture-in-Picture, Inner Space provides everything you need in order to do it. There is no figuring out how to get your application to run with World of Warcraft or other games, because the platform is already available.

As far as portability, applications would only run under Inner Space. I believe that is what you were asking, but for more information: Inner Space runs in Linux (via Wine or Cedega, etc), and people have had varied degrees of success using it on MacOS X with the same or similar software (or by using Parallels). There are some bugs in the Wine Direct3D implementation, but last time I went to the Wine community to provide information, they tried to tell me I should just write my application native for Linux instead (no thanks). And Inner Space runs on Windows XP SP2 or later (Vista, Server 2008, etc) 32 or 64-bit.

[Sam DeathWalker]

Hummm looks like my Win2K systems are getting to be out of the loop heh ....

I dont think I have to worry about being accused of cheating cause I die way to much ...

[Souca]

In what manner does IS interact with the WoW client? Does it behave as a DirectInput device to send key or mouse clicks? Does it have access to any client memory? Can an addon running in WoW communicate with IS, which I assume is running external to the client and not as a addon, and can IS send info back to that addon in a manner other than keystrokes or mouse clicks? When multiboxing with IS, you mention clicking a in game UI button which then triggers actions on other clients; how is that message sent to the other clients?

Sorry for the specific technical questions, but like Xzin, I want to understand how IS works.

- Souca -

[Lax]

In what manner does IS interact with the WoW client? Does it behave as a DirectInput device to send key or mouse clicks? Does it have access to any client memory? Can an addon running in WoW communicate with IS, which I assume is running external to the client and not as a addon, and can IS send info back to that addon in a manner other than keystrokes or mouse clicks? When multiboxing with IS, you mention clicking a in game UI button which then triggers actions on other clients; how is that message sent to the other clients?

Sorry for the specific technical questions, but like Xzin, I want to understand how IS works.

- Souca -Inner Space runs inside the client's memory space (the name Inner Space is meant to hint at this). It interacts by providing a layer between the game, and Windows. All input systems used by games are virtualized by Inner Space and combined into a single interface, so that regardless of what input system the game is using (DirectInput, win32, etc), it should simply work. There are bugs sometimes with the virtualized input system, so some games the input does not seem to work -- this is pretty rare but is the most common reason for Inner Space not being compatible with a given game. For example, I just heard recently that Battlefield 2 seems to have this problem. When I find out about bugs like this, I usually try to get them solved as soon as possible. With the virtualized input system, Inner Space is actually processing all of the input the game receives, before the game receives it, and any keys or mouse clicks to be emulated are simply input into the stream as if it were actually pressed.

The message being sent to other clients is sent via Inter-Process Communication to another Inner Space session (e.g. an instance of WoW using Inner Space), which can use the system described above to emulate keystrokes or mouse clicks. If the session is on a remote PC, the message is sent via TCP between the Uplinks (what the IS main program is called) as long as they are networked (disabled by default). When you click on a ClickBoxer button, it executes a command like so:

relay all press alt+f
"relay" in this case is the name of a command which can pass another command to one or more sessions. In this case, it is being sent to "all", which means all sessions but the one relayed from. The command being passed is press, with a parameter alt+f, which as I probably don't need to explain, presses alt+f. There are a lot of other commands, and more than one command could be executed per button press if you really wanted, but the typical deal is "one key to one action", so ClickBoxer sticks to that in its sample form. It is up to the user to remain within the rules.

I don't know the answer to legitimately communicating with WoW add-ons. The only communication with add-ons that I know of happening was through ISXWoW, and that falls outside of what we want to be discussing. However, I would LIKE to be able to legitimately communicate with WoW add-ons, in order to improve functionality of, say, the Ventrilo interface for example: if it's possible to do without raising flags, I would like to make it a one-click no-typing deal in order to join a Ventrilo server for a pre-made battleground, by having an addon transmit the server details to my application. I will admit I don't know enough about the capabilities of WoW addons in particular to answer this question properly.

[Suvega]

Inner Space runs inside the client's memory space (the name Inner Space is meant to hint at this).

You cannot live inside the WoW process space, it is both AGAINST The ToS, and has been defended for a million dollar lawsuit for the case of WoW Glider.

INNERSPACE IS NOT LEGAL. YOUR PLATFORM IS NOT LEGAL. WOWGLIDER USED THIS PLATFORM AS WELL.



ToS, Section 14, Paragraph A:
WHEN RUNNING, THE PROGRAM MAY MONITOR YOUR COMPUTER'S RANDOM ACCESS MEMORY (RAM) AND/OR CPU PROCESSES FOR UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAMS RUNNING CONCURRENTLY WITH WORLD OF WARCRAFT. AN "UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM" AS USED HEREIN SHALL BE DEFINED AS ANY THIRD PARTY SOFTWARE, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY "ADDON" OR "MOD," THAT IN BLIZZARD'S SOLE DETERMINATION: (i) ENABLES OR FACILITATES CHEATING OF ANY TYPE; (ii) ALLOWS USERS TO MODIFY OR HACK THE WORLD OF WARCRAFT INTERFACE, ENVIRONMENT, AND/OR EXPERIENCE IN ANY WAY NOT EXPRESSLY AUTHORIZED BY BLIZZARD; OR (iii) INTERCEPTS, "MINES," OR OTHERWISE COLLECTS INFORMATION FROM OR THROUGH THE PROGRAM. IN THE EVENT THAT THE PROGRAM DETECTS AN UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM, BLIZZARD MAY (a) COMMUNICATE INFORMATION BACK TO BLIZZARD, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION YOUR ACCOUNT NAME, DETAILS ABOUT THE UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM DETECTED, AND THE TIME AND DATE THE UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM WAS DETECTED; AND/OR (b) EXERCISE ANY OR ALL OF ITS RIGHTS UNDER SECTION 6 OF THIS AGREEMENT, WITH OR WITHOUT PRIOR NOTICE TO THE USER.

Important parts are highlighted.

Living in the memory space, and reading and having access to WoW's memory, is directly against the ToS.
For fucks sake, some mod, LOCK THIS FUCKING THREAD. Thx.

[Xzin]

What I would love would be to be able to have a sort of auxiliary HUD on a mini 8" or 10" monitor that could for example, track things like Vent servers, who is online, your average damage this session, total kills this session, honor gained this session, your latest arena results, etc. Pop up messages when things you need happen. A sort of sidekick feature that would automatically set itself up and automatically display at a glance data. Stuff that is important enough to know but not critical enough to go on the main UI. It would also be great if this information was aggregated across WoW's. This may or may not require an outside interface to allow the WoW sessions to talk together. I know the Bliz API is very limited about writing data although in theory, one could simply have an outside application aggregate/poll the data across a network and compile it in real time into a HUD display.

It would also be very neat if you could set up a small touchscreen display that would let you designate targets in milliseconds by simply clicking on their names in your touchscreen. So, mouse over their names and then click 1,2,3,4 and presto, you have loaded up 4 separate targets for your "alts" and then you have one for your main and bam - click once and 5x hexes or polys or what not go off. I don't think you would need IS for that but still. There are tons of VERY helpful ideas out there that could really help bring incremental increases in PvP/arena viability and I would love to finally see some people tackle them.

As a disclaimer: I don't know how much data one can pull out of WoW through the API. I think Bliz strongly limits the flow of data from applications to external files. It may not be possible to do the above without programs like IS or some kind of memory scanning program, which probably falls beyond what is legal under the TOS. I could see applications like the above being facilitated by IS and I think most people would argue that a aggregated data HUD would be useful and not the same as botting but still - I reiterate that this is a very fine line and until (if we ever) get clarification from Bliz, it seems like a good idea to ensure the community continues to maintain a reputation of being above board and not using programs or even offering up the belief that we are using special botting programs to give us an advantage in game. Boxing is legal because it gives players the same ability (less in my opinion) as 5 equally geared players. We as a community need to take great pains to keep it that way.

[Xzin]

For fucks sake, some mod, LOCK THIS FUCKING THREAD. Thx.

While this forum is and continues to be against botting of all types, I am not willing to slippery slope lock this thread as a knee jerk reaction just yet. I want to learn more about what Lax is proposing here and even though he has an association with programs that are against this forum and Blizzards own practices, I am also very against censoring Lax simply due to his reputation. I admit it is a fine line and I am not sure that I 100% agree with Lax that IS is 100% legit but I want to hear what he has to say and what he is proposing instead of simply deciding to lock this thread. Obviously if this thread turns to talk of botting or actions that are clearly against Blizzards TOS then it will get locked but Lax has made his position clear that that is not what he is here to promote. I for one am interested in hearing more about exactly what he has to say but I am incredibly weary about associating IS with multiboxing. We have a hard enough time as it is and we take great pains to keep the software applications that some of us use 110% as clean and as non automating as possible.

[Lax]

Inner Space runs inside the client's memory space (the name Inner Space is meant to hint at this).

You cannot live inside the WoW process space, it is both AGAINST The ToS, and has been defended for a million dollar lawsuit for the case of WoW Glider.

INNERSPACE IS NOT LEGAL. YOUR PLATFORM IS NOT LEGAL. WOWGLIDER USED THIS PLATFORM AS WELL.



ToS, Section 14, Paragraph A:
WHEN RUNNING, THE PROGRAM MAY MONITOR YOUR COMPUTER'S RANDOM ACCESS MEMORY (RAM) AND/OR CPU PROCESSES FOR UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAMS RUNNING CONCURRENTLY WITH WORLD OF WARCRAFT. AN "UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM" AS USED HEREIN SHALL BE DEFINED AS ANY THIRD PARTY SOFTWARE, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY "ADDON" OR "MOD," THAT IN BLIZZARD'S SOLE DETERMINATION: (i) ENABLES OR FACILITATES CHEATING OF ANY TYPE; (ii) ALLOWS USERS TO MODIFY OR HACK THE WORLD OF WARCRAFT INTERFACE, ENVIRONMENT, AND/OR EXPERIENCE IN ANY WAY NOT EXPRESSLY AUTHORIZED BY BLIZZARD; OR (iii) INTERCEPTS, "MINES," OR OTHERWISE COLLECTS INFORMATION FROM OR THROUGH THE PROGRAM. IN THE EVENT THAT THE PROGRAM DETECTS AN UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM, BLIZZARD MAY (a) COMMUNICATE INFORMATION BACK TO BLIZZARD, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION YOUR ACCOUNT NAME, DETAILS ABOUT THE UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM DETECTED, AND THE TIME AND DATE THE UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM WAS DETECTED; AND/OR (b) EXERCISE ANY OR ALL OF ITS RIGHTS UNDER SECTION 6 OF THIS AGREEMENT, WITH OR WITHOUT PRIOR NOTICE TO THE USER.

Important parts are highlighted.

Living in the memory space, and reading and having access to WoW's memory, is directly against the ToS.
For fucks sake, some mod, LOCK THIS FUCKING THREAD. Thx.I'm sorry, but you have no idea what you're talking about. It is not "AGAINST The ToS" to "live inside the WoW process space". Lots of software does this, including Logitech mouse software, anti-virus and anti-spyware software, Dell QuickSet, yadda yadda. The list goes on and on. Do you even know what the Glider lawsuit is about?

Secondly, Inner Space is legal. There are no legal complaints pending or planned against Inner Space. I will accept the advice of my attorney before some random idiot posting on the internet, and I would suggest that people in general not get their legal advice from people like this guy.

Third, the portion you highlighted has nothing to do with the claims you are making about Inner Space. Inner Space does not intercept, mine, or otherwise collect information from World of Warcraft. The section you are highlighting has to do with packet sniffing (which Inner Space does not do), or reading WoW memory for purposes of collecting data about the game (which Inner Space does not do). For example, they do not want you running a program that collects information on all of the nearby mobs for you to determine if there is a rare mob for you to go kill (which people did in EverQuest all the time). If the claim you were making about Inner Space being illegal for residing in-process were true, then WinEQ, WinEQ 2, and a multitude of other software including software promoted on dual-boxing.com would be illegal.

p.s. did you skip reading where I explained that I had a conversation in my deposition with Blizzard's legal counsel about this?

[Suvega]

Third, the portion you highlighted has nothing to do with the claims you are making about Inner Space. Inner Space does not intercept, mine, or otherwise collect information from World of Warcraft. The section you are highlighting has to do with packet sniffing (which Inner Space does not do), or reading WoW memory for purposes of collecting data about the game (which Inner Space does not do). For example, they do not want you running a program that collects information on all of the nearby mobs for you to determine if there is a rare mob for you to go kill (which people did in EverQuest all the time). If the claim you were making about Inner Space being illegal for residing in-process were true, then WinEQ, WinEQ 2, and a multitude of other software including software promoted on dual-boxing.com would be illegal.


A) WoWGlider case was about the copying and/or mining of WoW's memoryspace. Case could set quite a precedent in the Digital Rights area, that copying memory is an abuse of copyright, but whatever, thats a different topic.

You can defend your product as much as you want, however it was DESIGNED for bottling software (lol). Your "platform" was designed to live in the process space as to avoid detection. (I'm sure I could find many a posts for this, but you're not worth my time).

B) Question for you then buddy, Why live in the WoW memory space if not for allowing access to the memory of WoW? Overlays and other applications are perfectly able to run in other processes (see: fraps).

C) Just because they aren't SUEING you, doesn't mean you wont' get banned for using your shady ass software.
INDEPENDENT of the ability to sniff memory... Blizz can ban you for whatever they want, even without a reason. Your software was KNOWN to be associated with WoWGlider. I'm pretty sure thats a bit to close for comfort, no?


Food for thought

[Suvega]

Ok here, as followup:
If you think your software is legal, Why don't you do what keyclone (and other software programs that we allow on these boards) has done:

Ask on the customer service forum if creating a platform for 3rd party programs that lives within the WoW process space is Legal.

Do eet, until then, keep your shady ass wares away from this forum.

[Xzin]

For clarification: Lax is *not* the guy behind Glider. I am aware that Lax's software is used by others to avoid detection of Warden (and other naughty things) but lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater either. I understand the vilification of Lax here (even I have my reservations) but I have read what he has to say about the nuances of some of the things he does and I believe him to be a very intelligent individual that could potentially bring helpful advances in multiboxing software to the table. Will that happen? I don't know. What form will it take and will it be one that is ultimately good for the community? No idea. But I also see no point in burning him at the stake when he could go write his own software on his own anyway and not involve the community.

[Lax]

A) WoWGlider case was about the copying and/or mining of WoW's memoryspace. A quite questionable call by the judge to call it an abuse of copyright, but whatever, thats a different topic.

You can defend your product as much as you want, however it was DESIGNED for botting software (lol). Your "platform" was designed to live in the process space as to avoid detection. (I'm sure I could find many a posts for this, but you're not worth my time).

B) Question for you then buddy, Why live in the WoW memory space if not for allowing access to the memory of WoW? Overlays and other applications are perfectly able to run in other processes (see: fraps).

C) Just because they aren't SUEING you, doesn't mean you wont' get banned for using your shady ass software.


Food for thought1. Glider is a Bot. Bots are a violation of the ToS. The argument is that because it is a bot, it is a violation of copyright for it to modify the World of Warcraft process, which it was doing in part to implement a way to avoid detection from Warden.

Inner Space was not "DESIGNED for botting software", it was originally designed to replace WinEQ 2. Being used for botting is something that came about once people decided the features of the software would be useful for them to do that. World of Warcraft didn't HAVE detection when Inner Space was designed, so it's ludicrous for you to say that it was designed to be in-process to avoid detection. Furthermore, being in process is HARDER to avoid detection than out of process. The vast majority of Warden's functionality is for detecting in-process hacks. Warden can see Inner Space if they want it to.

2. It has nothing to do with allowing access to the memory of WoW, and you do not need to reside in WoW memory space to access the memory of WoW. ReadProcessMemory is used by Glider and other software in order to read the memory. WriteProcessMemory, likewise, is used to write it. As I said, being in-process has nothing to do with getting banned or not.

3. They can ban you for whatever they want, but they typically restrict banning to violations of the Terms of Service. They don't want to randomly ban people for things they didn't warn against, because that would be bad business and their banned customer would have a legitimate complaint against their service.

You can keep your opinion and go on thinking it's bannable, but stop spreading FUD.

[Suvega]

Sorry, not trying to vilanify Lax, I just don't want people hawking very shady things on this forum.

We get enough "ZOMG BOTS" as it is, before we start using software which was the, ehem, "platform" for which several bots built themselves on...

[Suvega]

3. They can ban you for whatever they want, but they typically restrict banning to violations of the Terms of Service. They don't want to randomly ban people for things they didn't warn against, because that would be bad business and their banned customer would have a legitimate complaint against their service.

You can keep your opinion and go on thinking it's bannable, but stop spreading FUD.See above on the Customer Service Post. Do that, until then I find it "Asking for it", when you create software on a platform which was known to be the base of several botting programs.

Lax, I'm sure your a talented developer, I would just highly advise staying far away from something this controversial when making software for a practice (multiboxing), which already gets accused of botting by the uninformed. Just build something standalone imo.

[zanthor]

Sorry, not trying to vilanify Lax, I just don't want people hawking very shady things on this forum.

We get enough "ZOMG BOTS" as it is, before we start using software which was the, ehem, "platform" for which several bots built themselves on...Then why aren't you in every thread about AutoHotKey screaming the same way? This certainly seems to be a very hot spot for you, but it really makes you seem unreasonable.

[Vyndree]

Because my server is failboating right now, I figured I'd add some additional logic to this post.

1) Blizzard can ban you for sneezing the wrong way. It's true. I'd like to think that they're a benevolent diety, though. So, since they define the "spirit of the game" they can ban anything they want.
2) Blizzard has made it clear that bots are not inline with the spirit of the game. I think we all agree on that.
3) Innerspace is associated with a botting program that is currently in a legal mess with Blizzard. Innerspace is also associated with other scripts that only run and were written FOR the Innerspace platform and whose sole purpose is to bot.
POINT A: Innerspace has the capability of being a platform for bots.
4) You do not need to be involved in a legal mess in order to get banned from WoW. Glider users were banned LONG before the lawsuit. Other bots were never involved in legal software and were also banned.
POINT B: A program does not have to have a legal struggle with Blizzard in order to be bannable from WoW
5) From Lax's description, Innerspace either reads or resides within WoW's memory.
6) From the precedent currently being made by the legal squabble between MDY (Glider) and Blizzard, programs that futz with WoW as it resides in memory are making illegal copies/alterations of WoW that are not covered in the licence/terms. This is gray area as the legal battle is not complete.
POINT C: Fussing with WoW as it resides in memory is gray area
7) Innerspace, as a name, is highly associated with botting programs.
8) Multiboxers, as a community, are often misassociated with botters. Multiboxers, in general, would prefer that this no longer happens.

... you see where I'm going here?

[Suvega]

Sorry, not trying to vilanify Lax, I just don't want people hawking very shady things on this forum.

We get enough "ZOMG BOTS" as it is, before we start using software which was the, ehem, "platform" for which several bots built themselves on...Then why aren't you in every thread about AutoHotKey screaming the same way? This certainly seems to be a very hot spot for you, but it really makes you seem unreasonable.Because it doesn't live in the process space, and doesn't allow the read or change of memory, nor has it been associated with botting software for the past few years....

[Lax]

3. They can ban you for whatever they want, but they typically restrict banning to violations of the Terms of Service. They don't want to randomly ban people for things they didn't warn against, because that would be bad business and their banned customer would have a legitimate complaint against their service.

You can keep your opinion and go on thinking it's bannable, but stop spreading FUD.See above on the Customer Service Post. Do that, until then I find it "Asking for it", when you create software on a platform which was known to be the base of several botting programs.

Lax, I'm sure your a talented developer, I would just highly advise staying far away from something this controversial when making software for a practice (multiboxing), which already gets accused of botting by the uninformed. Just build something standalone imo.If you hadn't skipped most of this thread, you would have read that I am creating a separate standalone application for people like you, in addition to providing the more advanced and open capabilities of Inner Space. I also responded on a previous thread with regards to asking customer service. It's not up to them what is bannable or not, and most of them have no more idea about the function of a particular piece of software than you do. The canned response is using ANY third party software may risk your account, and Blizzard does not endorse any third party products for use with World of Warcraft.

People wrote bots using Inner Space, sure, but that does not mean that Inner Space is botting software. People also write bots using Windows. Inner Space is just a platform.

I am also not, as I explained in a previous thread and mentioned in this one in passing, trying to convince you that it is safe to use. You would never take the word of the program's author for whether it is safe or not, and I am well aware of that. Whether Inner Space is safe or not will become more apparent as time passes and more and more people reinforce it. You don't need to take my word for it. Safe is a relative term, all it means is that people have been using it, and not been getting banned for it. The same would be true for Octopus and KeyClone. That could change tomorrow, for any software.

What I am trying to do is stop the spread of misinformation about my software that has come up on these forums from time to time, and is exacerbated by posts like yours randomly claiming that Inner Space is illegal, which it is certainly not. Whether it is bannable is up to Blizzard and Blizzard alone, and they have not been banning for Inner Space. They could if they wanted to, they have the capabilities, they are well aware of Inner Space and what it does, but they are FAR more concerned about ISXWarden and ISXWoW than Inner Space, and as I mentioned in this thread at least once, you will get banned within 20 minutes for using ISXWoW from what I am told by people who tried. People have been using Inner Space without those, for months.

Also, people build bots with autohotkey. Lots of them. Google it.

[zanthor]

POINT A: Innerspace has the capability of being a platform for bots.As does C#, C++, AutoIT, AutoHotKey, etc.

POINT B: A program does not have to have a legal struggle with Blizzard in order to be bannable from WoWThis applies to ANY 3rd party software including KeyClone.

Because it doesn't live in the process space, and doesn't allow the read or change of memory, nor has it been associated with botting software for the past few years.... Doesn't live in the process space I'll give you, but for memory space it was requested in this thread (http://www.autohotkey.com/forum/topic2960.html) in 2004, and the guy says he had it working in there, I haven't checked for current support... and as far as associated with botting, the FIRST thing I thought when I saw AutoHotKey was "gee, isn't that used for fishing bots too?"

[Suvega]

If you hadn't skipped most of this thread, you would have read that I am creating a separate standalone application for people like you, in addition to providing the more advanced and open capabilities of Inner Space. I also responded on a previous thread with regards to asking customer service. It's not up to them what is bannable or not, and most of them have no more idea about the function of a particular piece of software than you do. The canned response is using ANY third party software may risk your account, and Blizzard does not endorse any third party products for use with World of Warcraft.

What I am trying to do is stop the spread of misinformation about my software that has come up on these forums from time to time, and is exacerbated by posts like yours randomly claiming that Inner Space is illegal, which it is certainly not.

Whether it is bannable is up to Blizzard and Blizzard alone, and they have not been banning for Inner Space. *snip* People have been using Inner Space without those, for months.
I didn't skip it, I was referencing it, and complimenting you while doing it (or did you skip that ;) ) I would love you to create a standalone click version of your software. Using innerspace is just asking for retaliation.

Using a platform that was the backbone for botting software, seems kinda risky.

Keyclone has successfully been answered by BLUE posters who did not respond with a canned response that you say.

Do that, until then you can "defend" your "legal" software, but until you have Blizzard acknowledging that innerspace is legal, keep it off our forums.


Btw, for people getting banned for innerspace (Who claim they wern't using botting software): Check this thread: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=442898670&sid=1&pageNo=1

[Vyndree]

Whether it is bannable is up to Blizzard and Blizzard alone, and they have not been banning for Inner Space.

This is the bit that I'm not so sure about. I could've sworn I saw posts of people who claimed they were banned for IS without the use of botting scripts when playing WoW.

Of course, since I have no proof to back this up (my memory is decent, but not perfect -- most of these people on the forums know my reference-linking skillz ;) ) -- I say take that as you will. Personally, I wouldn't trust the developer of a bannable software to admit that it was bannable either -- but I have no proof of it so I will let people make their own investigations and decisions with fair warning.


Blizzard does not endorse any third party products for use with World of Warcraft.

Untrue.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=8765637958&pageNo=1&sid=1#8

Yup, keyclone is fine.

[Vyndree]

POINT A: Innerspace has the capability of being a platform for bots.As does C#, C++, AutoIT, AutoHotKey, etc.

POINT B: A program does not have to have a legal struggle with Blizzard in order to be bannable from WoWThis applies to ANY 3rd party software including KeyClone.

Because it doesn't live in the process space, and doesn't allow the read or change of memory, nor has it been associated with botting software for the past few years.... Doesn't live in the process space I'll give you, but for memory space it was requested in this thread (http://www.autohotkey.com/forum/topic2960.html) in 2004, and the guy says he had it working in there, I haven't checked for current support... and as far as associated with botting, the FIRST thing I thought when I saw AutoHotKey was "gee, isn't that used for fishing bots too?"

As I said, those are just points. No more, no less. The reader can make their own conclusions based off those points (as they are only meant to be true/false). My thoughts on AHK are very clear above.

I'm just outlining the major points of the argument that lead to a conclusion of "gray area". If something is "gray area", I don't use it.

[Ellay]

Just took a look at this thread, I need to lock it until I get more details. Check your PM's Lax :)

[Ellay]

Alright I spoke with Lax, unlocking the thread. Please be civil hereafter, he's open to answer any questions/issues regarding the software.
Less meany sauce! :love:

[Suribusi]

What an epic thread, I can't believe that I didn't see it sooner!



If you hadn't skipped most of this thread, you would have read that I am creating a separate standalone application for people like you, in addition to providing the more advanced and open capabilities of Inner Space. I also responded on a previous thread with regards to asking customer service. It's not up to them what is bannable or not, and most of them have no more idea about the function of a particular piece of software than you do. The canned response is using ANY third party software may risk your account, and Blizzard does not endorse any third party products for use with World of Warcraft.

What I am trying to do is stop the spread of misinformation about my software that has come up on these forums from time to time, and is exacerbated by posts like yours randomly claiming that Inner Space is illegal, which it is certainly not.

Whether it is bannable is up to Blizzard and Blizzard alone, and they have not been banning for Inner Space. *snip* People have been using Inner Space without those, for months.
I didn't skip it, I was referencing it, and complimenting you while doing it (or did you skip that ;) ) I would love you to create a standalone click version of your software. Using innerspace is just asking for retaliation.

Using a platform that was the backbone for botting software, seems kinda risky.

Keyclone has successfully been answered by BLUE posters who did not respond with a canned response that you say.

Do that, until then you can "defend" your "legal" software, but until you have Blizzard acknowledging that innerspace is legal, keep it off our forums.


Btw, for people getting banned for innerspace (Who claim they wern't using botting software): Check this thread: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=442898670&sid=1&pageNo=1

I don't want to jump on anyones intelligence here, so don't take this that way. But the fact that you believe some random poster on the wow forums...is...interesting. In the CS forums, there is always more than meets the eye to what people "claim" they were doing, or "not" doing. I think you know this already, and might just be choosing things that support your thoughts and ignoring others. Maybe I'm wrong. :)



Whether it is bannable is up to Blizzard and Blizzard alone, and they have not been banning for Inner Space.

This is the bit that I'm not so sure about. I could've sworn I saw posts of people who claimed they were banned for IS without the use of botting scripts when playing WoW.

Of course, since I have no proof to back this up (my memory is decent, but not perfect -- most of these people on the forums know my reference-linking skillz ;) ) -- I say take that as you will. Personally, I wouldn't trust the developer of a bannable software to admit that it was bannable either -- but I have no proof of it so I will let people make their own investigations and decisions with fair warning.


Blizzard does not endorse any third party products for use with World of Warcraft.

Untrue.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=8765637958&pageNo=1&sid=1#8

Yup, keyclone is fine.

Interesting link. However the last line sticks out more in my eyes, than the top, where he/she summarizes by saying

"Essentially, if you could legally create the command as a functional macro within the default user interface, then it should be okay."
Keyclone, Innerspace, AHK, Octopus, etc allow you to stay within this area. I thought I had more to add, but it is late and I can't think. Not really making or proving any type of point, just a matter of interrpretation I guess. :)

It "should" be okay. I have been using IS for a long time with no problems, as I have stated in another thread.

Side note: I don't know really what all the flaming in these threads is all about. All I can tell from my perspective is that some people here just don't understand all the facts. They overwrite it with their own fiction.

-S

[eqjoe]

INNERSPACE IS NOT LEGAL. YOUR PLATFORM IS NOT LEGAL. WOWGLIDER USED THIS PLATFORM AS WELL.



WoW... just wow. You are wrong. What information do you have that I don't?

I can tell you what information I have that you don't..... I have THE FACTS. You should read every post in this thread and learn something before making such insane statements.

-j

[Wilbur]

I'm lost for words with this thread. Several esteemed members of this community have pretty much reduced themselves to salvating morons. You guys really need to do some proper research before you even *THINK* about posting in this thread again, after all, that is what we are all about.

[oMek]

Well I’m going to say this over my time playing wow (3years) I’ve tried just about everything, Glider, innerspace (with ISXwow / warden), keyclone, and innerspace (alone).

Glider and ISXwow / warden are umm "bad" they will get you banned at some point .. you play with fire you get burnt.

For the past few months I have ran a combo of inner space and keyclone (solo) .. (depends on what I was doing at the time) and I’ve got no bans or warnings.

You say that using a platform that was also used for botting brings bad press to the world of multiboxing .... Are you kidding me? I’m sorry but if anything gets multiboxing ToSed .. It’s the people who run 36 accounts at once (front page) and do so in public places like Shatt and then post screens here and other forums. Those are the people who draw attention and negative press.

I don’t care what the forum blue posts say, multiboxing is a "gray" area and is not endorsed, ATM just because they say its "ok" does not mean they approve of it .. that just means they dont feel it’s a major issue at the present time. multiboxing will change soon enough in the eyes of blizzard I’m sure of it.

What really makes me laugh... Most of the people in here saying inner space / lax are the devil... prob have tried inner space before or will try it in the near future if his program provides multiboxer to something to your advantage.

[RobinGBrown]

Inner Space is just a platform.

It doesn't matter how much you keep repeating this or bleating on about the fine distinction between a platform and the bot that uses the platform because it's not relevant to the issue.

You are not trustworthy.

I would not trust you to write a program that would be safe to use with WoW.

Edit: Thought of a couple of pertinent questions for Lax

1. Does the InnerSpace 'platform' attempt to conceal itself from WoW in any way?

2. Is the Innerspace 'platform' capable of reading or scanning memory/data of WoW in any way?

3. Do people have to pay for Innerspace or Clickboxer?

The first two questions should answer the legality issue of InnerSpace quite firmly - because if IS attempts to conceal itself or read memory then it is definitely not safe to use.

The last question is a bit more entertaining. I'm assuming that the bot that runs on the InnerSpace 'platform' has been stopped and thus Lax is rather out of pocket recently becasue AFAIK IS requires a subscription to use. So I imagine that Lax has cast his greedy eye over multiboxers and said to himself something like 'ooh, there's a grey area where I can wrangle some subscriptions with a little addon, and those multiboxers have plenty of money or they wouldn't be able to afford all those accounts'.

Obviously I may be doing Lax a disservice here and perhaps he is planning on releasing his tool for free as part of a commitment to the community, but I doubt it, he just doesn't seem that lavish in his gifts.

[Lax]

Inner Space is just a platform.

It doesn't matter how much you keep repeating this or bleating on about the fine distinction between a platform and the bot that uses the platform because it's not relevant to the issue.

You are not trustworthy.

I would not trust you to write a program that would be safe to use with WoW.In the words of The Dude, "Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."

Thank you for your opinion. We have read it 3 times now. You can stop repeating it any time. If you don't want to use it, then don't use it. People will make their own decisions, I am helping them make an informed one.

[RobinGBrown]

In the words of The Dude, "Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."

Thank you for your opinion. We have read it 3 times now. You can stop repeating it any time.

Ditto, we've all seen your opinion too, and a lot more than 3 times too, it would be nice if you stopped repeating the same thing as well.

I edited my post while you were writing yours - try answering the questions above.

[Lax]

Edit: Thought of a couple of pertinent questions for Lax

1. Does the InnerSpace 'platform' attempt to conceal itself from WoW in any way?

2. Is the Innerspace 'platform' capable of reading or scanning memory/data of WoW in any way?

3. Do people have to pay for Innerspace or Clickboxer?

The first two questions should answer the legality issue of InnerSpace quite firmly - because if IS attempts to conceal itself or read memory then it is definitely not safe to use.

The last question is a bit more entertaining. I'm assuming that the bot that runs on the InnerSpace 'platform' has been stopped and thus Lax is rather out of pocket recently becasue AFAIK IS requires a subscription to use. So I imagine that Lax has cast his greedy eye over multiboxers and said to himself something like 'ooh, there's a grey area where I can wrangle some subscriptions with a little addon, and those multiboxers have plenty of money or they wouldn't be able to afford all those accounts'.

Obviously I may be doing Lax a disservice here and perhaps he is planning on releasing his tool for free as part of a commitment to the community, but I doubt it, he just doesn't seem that lavish in his gifts.1. In order to work properly with many games, Inner Space needs to be as indistinguishable as possible from Windows itself as possible. Inner Space as a platform does not attempt to conceal itself from Warden, which has the capability to detect Inner Space.

2. Inner Space does not change the capability of reading or scanning memory. That functionality is built into your processor and additionally in Windows. Being in-process means that you do not need any functionality beyond what World of Warcraft itself is doing, using your CPU. There is no additional functionality in Inner Space for this.

3. Inner Space is subscription-based. ClickBoxer is an XML file, you can view the entire source file (it is short), and in fact it would be essentially useless without that. ClickBoxer is free, you can grab it right now, but it would only be useful to you via Inner Space.

4. As I mentioned previously, my company started in 2004 as a company providing services to multi-boxers, including Sam, the original poster of the thread. I don't know where you get off calling me greedy. Anyone who runs a business wants to make money. KeyClone requires you to pay for it, does it not? I dont understand your hostility.

Edit: Oh, and if you wanted something for nothing, you can feel free to apply for a free 7 day trial of Inner Space, which would then allow you to try ClickBoxer, for free.

[Suribusi]

In the words of The Dude, "Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."

Thank you for your opinion. We have read it 3 times now. You can stop repeating it any time.

Ditto, we've all seen your opinion too, and a lot more than 3 times too, it would be nice if you stopped repeating the same thing as well.

I edited my post while you were writing yours - try answering the questions above.

Apparently not everyone, because all of your questions were answered already in this section of the forums. Maybe of 4th time will help. 8|

-S

[Aethon]

That's why (at least in my post) I made it clear that it's my PERSONAL OPINION. I, PERSONALLY, would never use any product that would allow me to unwittingly stumble my way into the area of botting.

As a hardware boxer, I've pretty much taken it to the extreme. ;) There is no way I can program a delay into my setup. There is no way that I could automatically make actions with my setup.

If there's a way to accidentally trip over myself and end up with a bannable action using AHK, InnerSpace, whatever... I, personally, want no part in it. Many people use AHK, G15s, and the like without issue -- I just don't prefer not to.

Right, and we all see how well the personal opinions of normally highly respected people in the community can cause things to shift one way or another. i.e. random famous person says they're voting for canidate X in the election. And you seriously don't think that that influnces other people? If you didn't intend for others to be swayed by your opinions, why did you bother to post them?

As for Lax's software, I DO support it. I also support Keyclone. I encourage people to try different products and see what they like best. If anyone here is in doubt as to the validity of a particular product, ask on the Blizzard forums, I'm sure sooner or later a Blue will respond. If that Blue's answer isn't good enough for you, email their support, tell them you think product X is ok to use and want them to look if it violates anything. As stated many times on the forums, 1 press, 1 action = ok.

And a GM on the forums is not what I would call Blizzard endorsing a product. True, they may work for Blizzard, but it's not the same as a press release stating 'company Q fully backs and supports product Y' they simply say it's 'OK to use at the moment.'

[Sam DeathWalker]

WinEQ2 is a Lax Product (which you PAY for) and is 100percent LEGAL in EQ.

From what I see in this thread IS, by itself, appears to be also legal.

1. It is not hidden from Warden

2. No one who has used it has been banned.

Again I just repeat that it sounds to me the argument made against it would be the exact same argument that because you CAN use the G15 programing software as a platform to violate the TOS then you should not buy any product from Logitech, an argument which I find sophistical to say the least.

[Sam DeathWalker]

Also another point about all this banning business. Its not up to us to take a wild guess at what blizzard considers legal or not. In any state of the United States you can't provide a product to the general population and refuse to provide that product to spicific individuals. Of course those who violate the TOS can be banned, but in court the burden of proof would be on Blizzard to establish that they in fact banned the person for ligit reason and not because of ILLEGAL discrimination.

Blizzard has legal counsel and obviously the best way for Blizzard to protect themselves from litigation would be to simply announce what programs are bannable and what are not.

Instead of all this wild guess talk in this thread just simply post on WoW forum and ask if IS is legal or not. They have stated that Keyclone is legal, I see no reason they would not also take a position on IS.

Blizzard obviously dosnt prevent others from makeing money from WoW as many addon sites charge money as do informational sites like allka. This is all to their advantage to have others working to make things for their game.

[Suvega]

Also another point about all this banning business. Its not up to us to take a wild guess at what blizzard considers legal or not. In any state of the United States you can't provide a product to the general population and refuse to provide that product to spicific individuals. Of course those who violate the TOS can be banned, but in court the burden of proof would be on Blizzard to establish that they in fact banned the person for ligit reason and not because of ILLEGAL discrimination. .



This is completly untrue.

Learn to read your legal agreements:

Section 7:

Blizzard’s Absolute Right to Suspend, Terminate and/or Delete the Account.


BLIZZARD MAY SUSPEND, TERMINATE, MODIFY, OR DELETE THE ACCOUNT AT ANY TIME WITH ANY REASON OR NO REASON, WITH OR WITHOUT NOTICE. For purposes of explanation and not limitation, most account suspensions, terminations and/or deletions are the result of violations of this Terms of Use or the EULA

[Suvega]

Instead of all this wild guess talk in this thread just simply post on WoW forum and ask if IS is legal or not. They have stated that Keyclone is legal, I see no reason they would not also take a position on IS.
Still waiting on this, however IMO this will never happen.

[Sam DeathWalker]

Thats called a "contract of adhesion" in legal terms.

Its not infoceable in a court of law.

http://dictionary.law.com/definition2.asp?selected=2325

Notice that Blizzard is sueing Glider for COPYRIGHT violations not violations of the TOS or EULA lol ....

[Suvega]

Thats called a "contract of adhesion" in legal terms.

Its not infoceable in a court of law.

http://dictionary.law.com/definition2.asp?selected=2325

LOL, says YOU? This contract has been enforced with this clause for how long?
Hahah. Great legal advice Sam, You just told us that the ToS are void... LOL...

[Sam DeathWalker]

This "contract" has NEVER been enforced ONE TIME in a Court of Law. Cite me a copy to the decision if it has. The EULA will not be enforced by a Court in my opinion, the fact is no one is going to pay $30,000 to an attorney to fight for a $77 ban.

Correct me if I am wrong but the Glider case is NOT about TOS becuase Blizzard knows its complete garbage. Although their case from a copyright standpoint is a lot stronger.

You don't think taht because a resturant posts a sign "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" that the Court will enforce that "contract" if they refuse to serve blacks?

[eqjoe]

Instead of all this wild guess talk in this thread just simply post on WoW forum and ask if IS is legal or not. They have stated that Keyclone is legal, I see no reason they would not also take a position on IS.
Still waiting on this, however IMO this will never happen.

I started a thread on the US WoW boards and asked this very question several months ago in the UI and Macros forum. I never got a blue answer. I did get a green answer who suggested that Blizzard will never declare any software safe or unsafe and that they ban based on in game conduct.

Ok, we know that is bullshit. Blizzard banned several of us a few years ago for vanilla InnerSpace, just to reverse the bans and give us free time. Some of us have never trusted Blizzard since.

-j

[Suvega]

This "contract" has NEVER been enforced ONE TIME in a Court of Law. Cite me a copy to the decision if it has. The EULA will not be enforced by a Court in my opinion, the fact is no one is going to pay $30,000 to an attorney to fight for a $77 ban.

Correct me if I am wrong but the Glider case is NOT about TOS becuase Blizzard knows its complete garbage. Although their case from a copyright standpoint is a lot stronger.

You don't think taht because a resturant posts a sign "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" that the Court will enforce that "contract" if they refuse to serve blacks?

LOL I love the analogy, because Blizzard is discriminating against whom? People who use a certain peice of software that they find to be shady?
Stop talking out of your ass Sam, you just make yourself look worse then you already do (which is a pretty hard feat imo)

[Suvega]

Instead of all this wild guess talk in this thread just simply post on WoW forum and ask if IS is legal or not. They have stated that Keyclone is legal, I see no reason they would not also take a position on IS.
Still waiting on this, however IMO this will never happen.

I started a thread on the US WoW boards and asked this very question several months ago in the UI and Macros forum. I never got a blue answer. I did get a green answer who suggested that Blizzard will never declare any software safe or unsafe and that they ban based on in game conduct.

Ok, we know that is bullshit. Blizzard banned several of us a few years ago for vanilla InnerSpace, just to reverse the bans and give us free time. Some of us have never trusted Blizzard since.

-j

This is what I'm afraid of :(. We know that innerspace is on a "watch" list if you will, and that they will be checking for anything shady going on.

My Main concerns:
Innerspace already being very closely tied to botting software in the past (yes, platform, just saying closely associated).
People drawing anymore analogies with Botting and Boxing.
Sweeping bans on kids who have innerspace (which might get reversed later), and then them swarming our boards like "BANNED FOR MULTIBOXIGN!!!"


Lax-
To clarify, I have no problems whatsoever with you creating a competiting product in the multicasting niche. In fact I would LOVE more competition, as right now (at least on this board), keyclone is the monopoly. If you could provide a good alternative to keyclone, by all means I would ENCOURAGE you to do so.

My only concern is using Innerspace as the platform. I understand that it is just a "platform", however the platform is very extensibile, and provides alot of hooks into an application which many of us do not want to be anywhere near.

I understand that you're workign on a standalone, which I think would be GREAT for the community, and by all means charge for it as well (Open markets ftw).
I would -strongly- prefer that you leave innerspace out of this community, as unfortunetly what YOU do, will affect ALL of us. Even if the majority of people decide they would rather the standalone application, this doesn't negate the fact that people ARE using innerspace. Nothing good can come from associating boxing with innerspace, and I don't want to have the repercussions of this affecting me or others in this community who had nothing to do with this.

[Rigz]

Instead of all this wild guess talk in this thread just simply post on WoW forum and ask if IS is legal or not. They have stated that Keyclone is legal, I see no reason they would not also take a position on IS.
Still waiting on this, however IMO this will never happen.You should consider that lax may not care to waste his time doing this, and most people who are rational won't blame him. For one thing IS is a more complex issue of software (one of keyclone's selling points is that it does one thing and is careful to do nothing at all dangerous), and I doubt anyone in CS would want to touch IS with even a semi official response.

For another he may not see any value in getting a CS endorsement as unlikely as it may be, because most people understand that a CS response does not dictate nor assure blizzard policy. I know every time I fire up Keyclone I take some risk of being banned, I just consider it small enough (so tiny really) to not deter me from doing so.

Should he get an endorsement to satisfy you, even if such an endorsement would be meaningless to most others? Thats his call I guess, just PLEASE stop demanding it over and over like it is some masterstroke to your otherwise baseless arguments (if any one who is rational is still reading them).

Also several of you are coming off sad and for once it's not Sam. That should probably tell you something about this thread...

[Suvega]

For another he may not see any value in getting a CS endorsement as unlikely as it may be, because most people understand that a CS response does not dictate nor assure blizzard policy. I know every time I fire up Keyclone I take some risk of being banned, I just consider it small enough (so tiny really) to not deter me from doing so.

Should he get an endorsement to satisfy you, even if such an endorsement would be meaningless to most others? Thats his call I guess, just PLEASE stop demanding it over and over like it is some masterstroke to your otherwise baseless arguments (if any one who is rational is still reading them).

Also several of you are coming off sad and for once it's not Sam. That should probably tell you something about this thread...

a) I don't care what I come off as to you, nor anyone who thinks like you. I'm here to ensure that my ability and people like me continue to have the ability to Multibox and enjoy the hobbies that I Do.
b) An endorsement by a Blizzard GM is a good way to both increase sales, and to mitigate fears by the unknowledgable. If he was SMART he would, because if YOU haven't noticed by now, a VAST MAJORITY of this site tries to keep as legal as possible.
c) Claiming that arguments are coming off as "sad and for once its not sam", and that they are "irrational" but have no counterpoints to the arguements is quite ironic imo ;)

[Vyndree]

And you seriously don't think that that influnces other people?

I'm not saying my personal opinion doesn't influence others -- I would've kept my mouth shut if my opinion didn't have any value. I was merely clarifying (because I am a mod) between MY personal opinion, and that of the site (because others have oft accused me of speaking for the site when I was disussing MY opinion on a FORUM.)

I speak my opinion because that's what every person on this forum has the right to do -- they say what they feel about a product/strat/composition/encounter and others DISCUSS whether they feel the same, whether they don't, or whether their perception has changed because they read someone else's perspective. If people agree with my perspective -- good for them -- that doesn't make them mindless sheep. Knowledge is power -- nothing I have said in any of my posts is false. I am not misleading any one. I am not posting false information, or information that is purposely lacking -- I have made my stance clear on Innerspace -- and in this very thread I have compared it to my same personal impressions of AHK, G15s, etc. I don't like any of them.

"Why didn't you put up such a big fuss about G15's and AHK?"

I did. G15s and AHK were out before I even started multiboxing -- but even so -- whenever the topics came up, I was on those threads with my warnings of "be careful when using it -- I wouldn't use it, but they CAN do things that can get you banned".

I'm doing the same in this thread -- and if I'm not mistaken that's my right to.


Are we not a DISCUSSION forum?
Are we not allowed to share our OPINIONS on products?
Is my opinion not based on FACTS (as I laid out in a previous post of mine VERY clearly)?


Please don't patronize me -- I have never once made my stance the official stance of dual-boxing.com. I have been VERY, VERY, VERY, EXCEEDINGLY clear with my NUMEROUS uses of "personally", "imo", "seriously guys this is my opinion", "FFS OPINION". If people value my PERSONAL opinion over others -- why do you think that is? Perhaps because I have always ALWAYS been a member of the community who is GREATLY INVESTED in keeping people on the right track in terms of the ToU/EULA, and have ALWAYS had people's account interests in mind?

[Vyndree]

Thats called a "contract of adhesion" in legal terms.

Its not infoceable in a court of law.

Regardless, OUR FORUM RULES on this forum clearly state:

Game Specific Forum Rules
If it is against the ToS of the game you are discussing it is against dual-boxing.com’s community guidelines to discuss ways of breaking said ToS. We are COMMITTED to keeping our hobby 100% compliant with the ToS of any game we play. Discussions regarding software that automates gameplay or alters parts of the gaming environment are strictly prohibited. We neither use nor condone the use of such software. Do not name, provide links or provide a “how-to” for such software.
If a game has a tool for detecting prohibited programs, such as “Warden”, discussions of bypassing or disabling those tools are prohibited. Do not name, provide links or provide a “how-to” for such procedures.

Community Guidelines - Read Before Posting ('http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&postID=14540#post14540')

If it's not compliant with the ToU/EULA, we don't discuss it here. End of story.

[jrichard]

So let's see....

We have the author of the base platform many bots run on, who also maintains and provides the extension to that platform meant to hide it from warden. (and no, you didn't quit providing that in 2007. looks like it was posted that with the bans that came with 2.4.3 you told users to stop using it until the "problems" could be fixed.)

We have eqjoe, longtime botter and the author of botting scripts. A simple search shows him giving advice to others on writing their scripts as well as providing his own. This line from this thread is really funny: "Blizzard banned several of us a few years ago for vanilla InnerSpace, just to reverse the bans and give us free time. Some of us have never trusted Blizzard since." as it implies that he doesn't bot.

Those searches also turned up Wilbur, who's also speaking up in defense of innerspace.

Botters and the guy providing their base sofware and the anti-detection extension. Go ahead and take their word for it on this stuff if you want. I seem to see a complete lack of honesty or openess from any of them on who they are and what they do. From lax you see a ton of double talk, which is quite pretty to read, and very little actual answering. Eqjoe seems to be running interference. Then we have the forum moderator who drops into these threads every now and again to insult anyone who speaks up against lax. That's a pretty little setup.

[Souca]

2. Is the Innerspace 'platform' capable of reading or scanning memory/data of WoW in any way?


2. Inner Space does not change the capability of reading or scanning memory. That functionality is built into your processor and additionally in Windows. Being in-process means that you do not need any functionality beyond what World of Warcraft itself is doing, using your CPU. There is no additional functionality in Inner Space for this.


I'm going to keep on this point, since I have yet to see a straightforward answer to the question. You have continually answered this question in a manner intended to avoid the actual intent of the question by stating that anything could read from memory. I hope this is unintentional on your part, so I will try and phrase this question again.

As a platform, does IS allow access to WoW memory space, or read or write to any WoW memory space? I'm not asking if Windows can do it, or if the CPU can do it, I'm asking if IS does it or exposes calls/hooks/fucntions to allow scripts to do it.

As for all the bashing going on both sides, all I can say is that very few people can claim their hands are clean in here, mine included. There have been some very good points in this thread and those were ones that were backed up with cited facts. These posts have come from both sides and I hope that we can continue those kinda of posts *without* the personal attacks or the "shame on yous".

- Souca -

Edit: Changed with to without.

[Vyndree]

I just reread this...


Firstly, I was never heavily involved in Glider. In 2006 I made a deal with MDY to provide him with protection from Warden. That is not Lavish Software, that is me individually, there is a difference and Lavish Software does not produce nor market Warden protection.

So, in essence you're saying that
a) You own and are involved with a software company thus named Lavish Software.
b) You (but not Lavish Software) made a deal with MDY (which produces SOLELY Glider) to provide him with protection from Warden.
Note: "Protection" from warden, or otherwise tampering with warden, is against the ToU/Eula.
c) Lavish Software does not produce nor market Warden protection.

Question:
Are you the sole owner of Lavish Software?

If so, doesn't that mean that "You" and "Lavish Software" are therefore equivalent in terms of everything but responsibility?

i.e. Is the only REAL differentiation between "you" and "lavish software" useful in order to protect the right hand from what the left hand is doing?

[Lax]

So let's see....

We have the author of the base platform many bots run on, who also maintains and provides the extension to that platform meant to hide it from warden. (and no, you didn't quit providing that in 2007. looks like it was posted that with the bans that came with 2.4.3 you told users to stop using it until the "problems" could be fixed.)

We have eqjoe, longtime botter and the author of botting scripts. A simple search shows him giving advice to others on writing their scripts as well as providing his own. This line from this thread is really funny: "Blizzard banned several of us a few years ago for vanilla InnerSpace, just to reverse the bans and give us free time. Some of us have never trusted Blizzard since." as it implies that he doesn't bot.

Those searches also turned up Wilbur, who's also speaking up in defense of innerspace.

Botters and the guy providing their base sofware and the anti-detection extension. Go ahead and take their word for it on this stuff if you want. I seem to see a complete lack of honesty or openess from any of them on who they are and what they do. From lax you see a ton of double talk, which is quite pretty to read, and very little actual answering. Eqjoe seems to be running interference. Then we have the forum moderator who drops into these threads every now and again to insult anyone who speaks up against lax. That's a pretty little setup.When did I say I stopped providing something in 2007? I said I was deposed in 2007. ISXWarden has not been in distribution since August, and that is unrelated to "the problems" you are describing.

I have no idea what double talk you are referring to. I have been open and honest and answered as many questions as I can, so I don't know what "little actual answering" you're referring to either. Sorry, please be more clear as far as what I'm not answering. For the most part what I see is people like you who simply don't read or understand my posts and then spout off nonsense, such as claiming that I somewhere said that ISXWarden has not been provided since 2007.

Souca:

I'm going to keep on this point, since I have yet to see a straightforward answer to the question. You have continually answered this question in a manner intended to avoid the actual intent of the question by stating that anything could read from memory. I hope this is unintentional on your part, so I will try and phrase this question again.

As a platform, does IS allow access to WoW memory space, or read or write to any WoW memory space? I'm not asking if Windows can do it, or if the CPU can do it, I'm asking if IS does it or exposes calls/hooks/fucntions to allow scripts to do it.

As for all the bashing going on both sides, all I can say is that very few people can claim their hands are clean in here, mine included. There have been some very good points in this thread and those were ones that were backed up with cited facts. These posts have come from both sides and I hope that we can continue those kinda of posts *without* the personal attacks or the "shame on yous".

- Souca -

Edit: Changed with to without. Inner Space cannot PREVENT access to WoW memory space, because it is IN WoW memory space, and reading from memory is a basic function of your computer. I thought I answered it as clearly as I could the first time around. Let me explain that there are a variety of mods that can be loaded via Inner Space. "Extensions" can be written in C++. Extensions can do literally anything, as they are essentially compiled Windows programs. Inner Space provides API to extensions for general memory writes, however this has nothing to do with World of Warcraft, and without specifically using an anti-Warden solution, provides no benefit over writing memory directly. Reading memory requires NO special API, because that is what all programs do -- they manipulate the memory in the process's "memory space" as you say. "Scripts" can be written in LavishScript, and LavishScript, like many programming languages, has type-casting. It is possible to read bits of memory through clever typecasting, very much like what could be done in C++, but again, there is nothing WoW-specific here. ".NET Applications" can be written in any .NET language, commonly C#. The same API provided to extensions or scripts is available to .NET applications, but much like extensions, these are Windows-native programs that will run in the WoW process, and can read or write to the memory space by design. In order to have the WoW-specific functionality that I believe you're trying to ask about, you would need to use a custom extension (e.g. ISXWoW). If this does not thoroughly answer your question I'm not sure what else to tell you on the subject.


So, in essence you're saying that
a) You own and are involved with a software company thus named Lavish Software.
b) You (but not Lavish Software) made a deal with MDY (which produces SOLELY Glider) to provide him with protection from Warden.
Note: "Protection" from warden, or otherwise tampering with warden, is against the ToU/Eula.
c) Lavish Software does not produce nor market Warden protection.

Question:
Are you the sole owner of Lavish Software?

If so, doesn't that mean that "You" and "Lavish Software" are therefore equivalent in terms of everything but responsibility?

i.e. Is the only REAL differentiation between "you" and "lavish software" useful in order to protect the right hand from what the left hand is doing? I am indeed the sole owner of Lavish Software at present time. I don't believe your synopsis is correct, and I do believe MDY has other products (though I am not an expert on MDY). Lavish Software (and indeed Inner Space) was created long before Warden existed, so I'm not sure why you're saying this is "the only REAL differentiation", but it is indeed convenient to keep it separate and not market any Warden-related tools on the Lavish Software company site. There are some pretty good arguments against your statements, but I will ask you if you feel that an act of Lavish Software is an act of me, Joe Thaler, as an individual (note that I have employees who also act for Lavish Software). If not, then why is an act of me, Joe Thaler, automatically an act of Lavish Software? I have also held other jobs while owning Lavish, do my other jobs count as being Lavish? If I release a free, open source program to make toast for you, and I don't market it or provide it on my company site, but I do somewhere else, does that mean the toaster program is a Lavish product?

In the end the distinction is largely legalese, and I don't think it's fit for discussion on these forums. Just take it as read that Lavish Software as a company has never produced nor marketed Warden protection, and you will not find any evidence to the contrary on the web site. You are certainly free to feel however you like about my distribution of ISXWarden but on my end it's handled, and you may or may not come to find that out in the near future.

If the argument is that I've made software people use for botting, so you don't want to trust my software, then don't, I'm not going to change your mind, because indeed I have written software people use for botting. Even before Inner Space, I made MacroQuest 2 in EQ1, rewritten from MacroQuest 1 which was originally made by Plazmic, who I'm told landed a job at Microsoft after impressing someone with it (he died last year of an aneurysm). People used that for botting and warping and whatever else you can think of. Our MQ2 community rules explicitly state that afk bots are not allowed, hacks like warping are not allowed, and so on, but in the minds of the many, MQ2 is synonymous with botting and warping. From my experience with MQ2 I went on to create EQPlayNice, which was and is a HUGE benefit to multi-boxers in EQ1, and WinEQ, neither of which were "cheating" applications by any measure, and EQIM clients such as TEQIM (for Trillian). And as anyone who was around back then will tell you, I had these same kinds of conversations with people at that time, even though I ALSO made EQWatcher, long before I got into MacroQuest, and it had a decent following in its time, including from multi-boxers such as Scott Adams of Adventure fame (not Dilbert). Note that SOE never banned any of my accounts, some of which are active to this day. I believe I present even them with an interesting dilemma.

Edit: Added "Even before Inner Space" in the previous paragraph, because there would have been a reply asking me if I was implying that Inner Space was never used for botting, and I'm obviously not arguing against that, because people have.

[Vyndree]

There are some pretty good arguments against your statements, but I will ask you if you feel that an act of Lavish Software is an act of me, Joe Thaler, as an individual (note that I have employees who also act for Lavish Software). If not, then why is an act of me, Joe Thaler, automatically an act of Lavish Software? I have also held other jobs while owning Lavish, do my other jobs count as being Lavish?

For the same reason that people will critize Microsoft for a action made by Bill Gates. For the same reason that people will critize Microsoft for an action made by me (as an employee of Microsoft). For this reason, I am required to sign a quite comprehensive contract on what I can, and cannot say (and do) inside and outside of Microsoft.

If Bill Gates were to be involved in some scandalous activity involving the computer industry, would people not also critize Microsoft (particularly because of his vast influence on the company)?

Like it or not you are a representative of your company. And like it or not, you have been responsible for your own soiled reputation, which in turn is soiling your company's (howevermuch you're trying to seperate the two for reasons of legalese). It's not a hard concept why you are receiving such a large amount of mistrust and criticism regardless of your product's merits (or lack thereof). You've earned it.

[Lax]

There are some pretty good arguments against your statements, but I will ask you if you feel that an act of Lavish Software is an act of me, Joe Thaler, as an individual (note that I have employees who also act for Lavish Software). If not, then why is an act of me, Joe Thaler, automatically an act of Lavish Software? I have also held other jobs while owning Lavish, do my other jobs count as being Lavish?

For the same reason that people will critize Microsoft for a action made by Bill Gates. For the same reason that people will critize Microsoft for an action made by me (as an employee of Microsoft). For this reason, I am required to sign a quite comprehensive contract on what I can, and cannot say (and do) inside and outside of Microsoft.

If Bill Gates were to be involved in some scandalous activity involving the computer industry, would people not also critize Microsoft (particularly because of his vast influence on the company)?

Like it or not you are a representative of your company. And like it or not, you have been responsible for your own soiled reputation, which in turn is soiling your company's (howevermuch you're trying to seperate the two for reasons of legalese). It's not a hard concept why you are receiving such a large amount of mistrust and criticism regardless of your product's merits (or lack thereof). You've earned it.I never said I'm not a representative of my company, I said the product is not a Lavish Software product, and that is what we were discussing. I am not asking why some people don't trust me, as I explained I fully understand and expect it to continue, and I had the SAME conversations with people years ago, and the dual-boxing.com mods have told me that the SAME treatment is given to anyone "new" to these forums talking about their applications. I truly hope that you do not think you are telling me something new.

[jrichard]

Then question if you're so honest.

Are you, your company, or any company or group that you affiliate with currently working on a new version of an extension or program for IS or any new version or replacement program for IS that has as at least one of it's features the ability to avoid warden detection?

[Lax]

Then question if you're so honest.

Are you, your company, or any company or group that you affiliate with currently working on a new version of an extension or program for IS or any new version or replacement program for IS that has as at least one of it's features the ability to avoid warden detection?No. I am not working on anything that needs the ability to avoid Warden detection, and ISXWarden is being withheld on advice from my legal counsel (not because of any perceived issues with detection) -- why would I do that but work on something new that does the same thing, given that? That would defeat the purpose of withholding ISXWarden in the first place.

If you think I am working on something to that effect, or a company or group I'm affiliated with is, I'd love to hear what it is and who it is developing it. As it is I will assume this is an honest question and not an accusation that would involve some sort of evidence, but if I'm assuming wrong then by all means, love to hear it. But it is pretty accusingly stated.

[jrichard]

It was an honest question and not an accusation. However, i asked if you were working on anything that will HAVE the ability, not that NEEDS it.

[Lax]

It was an honest question and not an accusation. However, i asked if you were working on anything that will HAVE the ability, not that NEEDS it.The first word of my post was "No." and then I additionally implied the answer was no, in the form of the question that followed:

ISXWarden is being withheld on advice from my legal counsel (not because of any perceived issues with detection) -- why would I do that but work on something new that does the same thing, given that? That would defeat the purpose of withholding ISXWarden in the first place. If I had simply replied and said "No" would you believe it? Does the above help reinforce the point?

[Vyndree]

I never said I'm not a representative of my company, I said the product is not a Lavish Software product, and that is what we were discussing.

Actually... this is what you asked in your post. (which I quoted in my response in case you missed it)


There are some pretty good arguments against your statements, but I will ask you if you feel that an act of Lavish Software is an act of me, Joe Thaler, as an individual (note that I have employees who also act for Lavish Software). If not, then why is an act of me, Joe Thaler, automatically an act of Lavish Software?

And that, is what I answered.

If you didn't want a response, don't post the question.



the dual-boxing.com mods have told me that the SAME treatment is given to anyone "new" to these forums talking about their applications.

I wouldn't say so. How many mods have you spoken with? Have you spoken with any product developers, such as Skarlot (Octopus) or Freddie (HKN)?

As a mod myself, I would say that while there are plenty outspoken fans of Keyclone, we don't typically see this muchproduct criticism on these boards. No, I would say this case is relatively unique. Neither Freddie nor Skarlot have any known cases of breaking the WoW ToU/Eula prior to, during, or after programming their respective products -- much less the repute that you have.

[Lax]

I never said I'm not a representative of my company, I said the product is not a Lavish Software product, and that is what we were discussing.

Actually... this is what you asked in your post. (which I quoted in my response in case you missed it)


There are some pretty good arguments against your statements, but I will ask you if you feel that an act of Lavish Software is an act of me, Joe Thaler, as an individual (note that I have employees who also act for Lavish Software). If not, then why is an act of me, Joe Thaler, automatically an act of Lavish Software?

And that, is what I answered.In the context of programs written, marketed and distributed by Lavish Software versus programs written, marketed and distributed separately of Lavish Software by Joe Thaler. Yes, we could go on about this all day, I apologize for not being more specific in those particular lines of my post.

[Vyndree]

In the context of programs written, marketed and distributed by Lavish Software versus programs written, marketed and distributed separately of Lavish Software by Joe Thaler.

And I gave you an appropriate analogy. Bill Gates actions' reflect on Microsoft just as much as Joe Thaler's actions reflect on Lavish Soft.

In either case, the actions of the figurehead reflect on the company, and vice versa.

The specifics don't change my response.

[Lax]

In the context of programs written, marketed and distributed by Lavish Software versus programs written, marketed and distributed separately of Lavish Software by Joe Thaler.

And I gave you an appropriate analogy. Bill Gates actions' reflect on Microsoft just as much as Joe Thaler's actions reflect on Lavish Soft.

In either case, the actions of the figurehead reflect on the company, and vice versa.

The specifics don't change my response.Your analogy does not apply. If Bill Gates writes, markets and distributes "Billy Bob.exe" on billybobgates.com web site, it does not make it written, marketed, or distributed by Microsoft.

[jrichard]

It was an honest question and not an accusation. However, i asked if you were working on anything that will HAVE the ability, not that NEEDS it.The first word of my post was "No." and then I additionally implied the answer was no, in the form of the question that followed:

ISXWarden is being withheld on advice from my legal counsel (not because of any perceived issues with detection) -- why would I do that but work on something new that does the same thing, given that? That would defeat the purpose of withholding ISXWarden in the first place. If I had simply replied and said "No" would you believe it? Does the above help reinforce the point?


You said no, then qualified that answer, then asked a question. If you had simply said no i would be satisfied. But when i look at your response i see nothing except evasion. You're the one who hurts your own credibility. Your answers are slick and well prepared, try honest short and succint sometime. Even the next to last line of that post doesn't actually simply say no, it asks another question without actually saying anything. To answer your last question, YES, everything about that post tells me all i need to know about using your software.

[Vyndree]

In the context of programs written, marketed and distributed by Lavish Software versus programs written, marketed and distributed separately of Lavish Software by Joe Thaler.

And I gave you an appropriate analogy. Bill Gates actions' reflect on Microsoft just as much as Joe Thaler's actions reflect on Lavish Soft.

In either case, the actions of the figurehead reflect on the company, and vice versa.

The specifics don't change my response.Your analogy does not apply. If Bill Gates writes, markets and distributes "Billy Bob.exe" on billybobgates.com web site, it does not make it written, marketed, or distributed by Microsoft.

I didn't say that. Please read my original response. Do you see any implication of legality in my response, or my previous original version?

LEGALLY, yes -- they are independent. But to the common consumer, anything with the name "Bill Gates" immediately implies a connection to Microsoft -- legally or not. To us (the consumers of your multiboxing product), the name "Innerspace" automatically gets associated with "Bot", regardless if it was Joe Thaler's legal action.

It's a reputation. It doesn't have to be legal. Reputations are very volatile creatures -- they're immeasurable, easy to ruin and hard to repair. And, I will repeat, you've been responsible for upkeeping your reputation and your company's reputation -- so you've earned the difficulty in proving to your consumers that you (and your company) are trustworthy.

People, consumers -- we're not as easy to sway because we're not as black and white as the law. We don't follow the absolute path. You can tell us something is "legal" or "illegal", but just because legality is involved doesn't make it "right", "wrong", or more notably "trustworthy". Humans, people, consumers -- we work on unmeasurable metrics that the law attempts -- but is not perfect at defining. Just because something is legal doesn't make it trustworthy. Just because something is legal doesn't prevent us from making human associations between company and employee/owner. Just because something is legal doesn't make it unbannable or safe to use.

I have highlighted the important word in my response for better clarity.

[Lax]

You said no, then qualified that answer, then asked a question. If you had simply said no i would be satisfied. But when i look at your response i see nothing except evasion. You're the one who hurts your own credibility. Your answers are slick and well prepared, try honest short and succint sometime. Even the next to last line of that post doesn't actually simply say no, it asks another question without actually saying anything. To answer your last question, YES, everything about that post tells me all i need to know about using your software.To be brutally honest, the reason I cannot answer "short and succinct" is because people take everything I say, and change the words, so I have to add disclaimer upon disclaimer upon disclaimer, to try to avoid situations like I am now in with Vyndree, who is arguing with me over semantics, and numerous other replies that quote (e.g.) a single line of my posts and make outrageous claims. I am trying to be as specific and detailed a possible when answering questions, so as to not leave anything out.

And, the questions are rhetorical ('http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetorical_question') , they are meant to make you think about why I would even consider circumventing Warden.

[Vyndree]

Vyndree, who is arguing with me over semantics

I'm not arguing over semantics. You say one thing, then claim you didn't say it. So I point out the obvious since you appear to have missed it, or forgotten what you had written a post earlier.

My argument has always been the same -- its yours that is jumping around without direction or purpose. In fact, you could read my first response and see the same argument as I am giving now. You and/or our software company has been involved (directly or indirectly) with ToU/Eula breaking, bannable software. This gives you, and your software company, a poor reputation. Your current software platform is 'gray area' -- that is, it is neither confirmed wrong or right but MAY (or may not) be bannable. Given those two precedents, I (as a personal opinion), believe you, and your software company to be untrustworthy when it comes to the consumer's account security.

Every post I've made in this thread has had the exact same content, outlined above.

[Lax]

I didn't say that. Please read my original response.

LEGALLY, yes -- they are independent. But to the common consumer, anything with the name "Bill Gates" immediately implies a connection to Microsoft -- legally or not. To us (the consumers of your multiboxing product), the name "Innerspace" automatically gets associated with "Bot", regardless if it was Joe Thaler's legal action.

It's a reputation. It doesn't have to be legal. Reputations are very volatile creatures -- they're immeasurable, easy to ruin and hard to repair. And, I will repeat, you've been responsible for upkeeping your reputation and your company's reputation -- so you've earned the difficulty in proving to your consumers that you (and your company) are trustworthy.

I have highlighted the important word in my response for better clarity.Alright, in that case, we don't need to keep on keeping on with this, because it has already been well established that I created Inner Space via Lavish Software, and that I separately created ISXWarden and that people have used the two together. The point I was making that you were quoting:

Firstly, I was never heavily involved in Glider. In 2006 I made a deal with MDY to provide him with protection from Warden. That is not Lavish Software, that is me individually, there is a difference and Lavish Software does not produce nor market Warden protection. is that Lavish is not and was not "heavily involved in Glider". They were interested in technology that I created, and they paid me, not Lavish Software. Irregardless of whether it was Lavish or me individually, there was absolutely no "heavy involvement", period. If you want to perceive that as some sort of connection between my company and MDY go right ahead. But it is absolutely correct to say that Lavish Software does not produce nor market Warden protection. Because the company does not. Just like Microsoft would not be producing nor marketing Billybob.exe in my example. Are we done with that yet, because we're way off topic.

[Lax]

Vyndree, who is arguing with me over semantics

I'm not arguing over semantics. You say one thing, then claim you didn't say it. So I point out the obvious since you appear to have missed it, or forgotten what you had written a post earlier.

My argument has always been the same -- its yours that is jumping around without direction or purpose. In fact, you could read my first response and see the same argument as I am giving now. You and/or our software company has been involved (directly or indirectly) with ToU/Eula breaking, bannable software. This gives you, and your software company, a poor reputation. Your current software platform is 'gray area' -- that is, it is neither confirmed wrong or right but MAY (or may not) be bannable. Given those two precedents, I (as a personal opinion), believe you, and your software company to be untrustworthy when it comes to the consumer's account security.

Every post I've made in this thread has had the exact same content, outlined above.....

I just reread this...



http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/../forum/icon/quoteS.png Quoted from "Lax" ('http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&postID=135812#post135812')

Firstly, I was never heavily involved in Glider. In 2006 I made a deal with MDY to provide him with protection from Warden. That is not Lavish Software, that is me individually, there is a difference and Lavish Software does not produce nor market Warden protection.
So, in essence you're saying that
a) You own and are involved with a software company thus named Lavish Software.
b) You (but not Lavish Software) made a deal with MDY (which produces SOLELY Glider) to provide him with protection from Warden.
Note: "Protection" from warden, or otherwise tampering with warden, is against the ToU/Eula.
c) Lavish Software does not produce nor market Warden protection.

Question:
Are you the sole owner of Lavish Software?

If so, doesn't that mean that "You" and "Lavish Software" are therefore equivalent in terms of everything but responsibility?

i.e. Is the only REAL differentiation between "you" and "lavish software" useful in order to protect the right hand from what the left hand is doing? How is this NOT about semantics?

[Vyndree]

How is this NOT about semantics?

Clarification. From your responses, it wasn't clear whether you were agreeing or disagreeing with my standpoint, as many of your statements were largely circular.

So I simply laid out the facts I got from your ambiguous paragraph, and asked if that was indeed the point you were making.


As for whether or not you were involved with Glider -- I think my point is still the same. To the consumer, I would consider the owner of a company to be the representative of the company. You consider the legal seperation between your actions and your companies to be the defining factor. Thus my further information on why I believe that to be an incorrect assumption because the issue is with reputation -- not legality.

In any case, you inferred that "involvement" meant legal involvement. I intended no such inference.

However, as you say "you don't care" to change my opinion (or others who question your reliability) -- and I feel that is a critical error if that is your business model. Upkeep of yours, and your company's reputation and a emphasis on consumer trust should be an important goal for any company. But, in the end, that's your choice.


In any case, if you feel my point has been adequately made and don't care to change my opinion, I have no need to post anymore. Just don't follow up respond with any more questions and I won't need to answer. ;)

[Lax]

Clarification. From your responses, it wasn't clear whether you were agreeing or disagreeing with my standpoint, as many of your statements were largely circular.

So I simply laid out the facts I got from your ambiguous paragraph, and asked if that was indeed the point you were making.


As for whether or not you were involved with Glider -- I think my point is still the same. To the consumer, I would consider the owner of a company to be the representative of the company. You consider the legal seperation between your actions and your companies to be the defining factor. Thus my further information on why I believe that to be an incorrect assumption because the issue is with reputation -- not legality.

In any case, you inferred that "involvement" meant legal involvement. I intended no such inference.

However, as you say "you don't care" to change my opinion (or others who question your reliability) -- and I feel that is a critical error if that is your business model. Upkeep of yours, and your company's reputation and a emphasis on consumer trust should be an important goal for any company. But, in the end, that's your choice.Okay, except that there is no way for me to change my reputation by posting on dual-boxing.com, that is something that is earned over time. Therefore, my posts are intending to educate, not magically change your opinion of whether you would want to trust my company's software. I have already mentioned that I believe that perception will be changing over the next few months. If that is somehow circular and ambiguous let me know.

I inferred that "heavy" as in "heavily involved" meant "significant", as in my company had some significant involvement with MDY. In response, I detailed the extent of my involvement, and explained that there is no "heavy" involvement. You on the other hand are making it about whether it is about Lavish or myself, due to those 2 lines of my post, and whether that would tarnish Lavish's reputation. I made no claim that it had no effect on Lavish's reputation, but yes I did specify that it is an important distinction. Yes, I was implying in that statement a legal distinction, not a reputational distinction.

We've already established that you don't like my reputation, and I have already established that I cannot change your opinion. It would take someone else entirely to do that, and there is nothing that I can say here right now that will change your mind, so why should I focus on changing your mind (in other words, I don't care to sit here and try to change your opinion, or any other individual's opinion, as paraphrased)? Reputation has nothing to do with getting banned, which is what the majority of the replies on this thread have been about. Getting banned is supposed to be about the Terms of Service.

What I am intending to do, what you are calling a critical flaw, is fixing the misinformation. If people are making posts that are untrue, then it does me a disservice, but you are free to have your own opinion on my reputation, and I suspect that the people who do not see it the same as you are the people who will end up trying it first. Eventually, your perception of my company may change due to the people around you that choose to use the software, and what their opinion is. After all, your opinion is very likely to already be based on exactly that. The people around you and what their opinion is.

Are you following me now, or is this circular? Do we need to keep going on about reputation or are we going to get back on point? I have been trying to keep this discussion NOT about reputation, because that comes over time.

[Vyndree]

In any case, if you feel my point has been adequately made and don't care to change my opinion, I have no need to post anymore. Just don't follow up respond with any more questions and I won't need to answer. ;)


Are you following me now, or is this circular? Do we need to keep going on about reputation or are we going to get back on point? I have been trying to keep this discussion NOT about reputation, because that comes over time.

Do you need to continue asking questions? Or are you willing to let me rest my voice because repeating myself is starting to make me feel hoarse. And yes, I feel that way even though I've had to type it all.

If you feel that the legal differentiation should absolve the reputation issue: that's fine. I don't. We can agree to disagree. As long as you don't misinterpret or misrepresent my words, there is no need for me to continue repeating myself.

[oMek]

i love cats, and my cat loves inner space.

https://dl.getdropbox.com/u/259073/Picture%20023.jpg

[Sam DeathWalker]

I really dont see the point. Lets assume he made 100 illegal botting programs... I really dont see where that has anything at all to do with wheather or not his current product violates the TOS. Either the current product does or it does not. If it does then it should not be used if it does not then it can be used.

Lax is going to go where the money goes and for sure MORE PEOPLE will pay him for a product that is legel and helps them win, then a product that is illegal and helps them win.

I'm defending his postion and I don't have any ax to grind one way or the other, right now I use and recommend Keyclone. If Lax comes up with a superior product that is legal Ill use that, if he dosn't then I stay with Keyclone. Fairly simple.

[stealthy45]

Ok, hello everyone, I've never posted here before but there are a lot of bits of idiocy in this thread that are greatly annoying me and need corrected.
An introduction: I'm stealthy from lavishsoft IRC. I've used InnerSpace for roughly a year and a half, part of that for botting and part not. While the botting part of that does bring a great stigma against IS, it seems pretty much everyone here is overlooking the legitimate uses, much like being unable to see the forest for the trees. For a while now I've been making use of the Ventrilo extension and the IRC extension to enable me to chat in-game through an IS GUI window, and use the VentriloHUD script. Both of these are perfectly legitimate uses (Also see: my unbanned, hand-leveled 67 bloodelf paladin that has been run inside IS since about 63, using ISXIRC and the ventrilo bit) that have nothing to do with gameplay automation.
From Suvega:

You cannot live inside the WoW process space, it is both AGAINST The ToS, and has been defended for a million dollar lawsuit for the case of WoW Glider.

INNERSPACE IS NOT LEGAL. YOUR PLATFORM IS NOT LEGAL. WOWGLIDER USED THIS PLATFORM AS WELL.
I'm sorry, but you've made it fairly obvious you have no idea what you're talking about.

Living in the memory space, and reading and having access to WoW's memory, is directly against the ToS.
For fucks sake, some mod, LOCK THIS FUCKING THREAD. Thx.
Can you guess how many Windows processes (ex. Windows Defender) "have access to WoW's memory"? Guess that makes them illegal. Think before you speak.
Up next, from Xzin:


What I would love would be to be able to have a sort of auxiliary HUD on a mini 8" or 10" monitor that could for example, track things like Vent servers, who is online, your average damage this session, total kills this session, honor gained this session, your latest arena results, etc. Pop up messages when things you need happen. A sort of sidekick feature that would automatically set itself up and automatically display at a glance data. Stuff that is important enough to know but not critical enough to go on the main UI. It would also be great if this information was aggregated across WoW's. This may or may not require an outside interface to allow the WoW sessions to talk together. I know the Bliz API is very limited about writing data although in theory, one could simply have an outside application aggregate/poll the data across a network and compile it in real time into a HUD display.
First off, nice too meet you. I've heard a lot of stories about A-Dzin and Xzin.
A lot of the things you're mentioning are not only possible but pretty simple. The ventrilo display is easily done. Some of that crosses into the grey area. Blizzard would have to determine if reading memory to determine things such as current honor, etc. for another display would violate their Terms of Service, until then it will be in the grey area.

More from Suvega:


Do eet, until then, keep your shady ass wares away from this forum.

Sorry, not trying to vilanify Lax, I just don't want people hawking very shady things on this forum.

We get enough "ZOMG BOTS" as it is, before we start using software which was the, ehem, "platform" for which several bots built themselves on...
Not trying to demonize Lax, eh? Sure made me think otherwise.

Zanthor:

Then why aren't you in every thread about AutoHotKey screaming the same way? This certainly seems to be a very hot spot for you, but it really makes you seem unreasonable.
Glad I wasn't the only one to notice this.

Vyndree:

8) Multiboxers, as a community, are often misassociated with botters. Multiboxers, in general, would prefer that this no longer happens.

... you see where I'm going here?
Yes, and the solution is simple: Don't automate, thanks.


POINT A: Innerspace has the capability of being a platform for bots.
Also see: Any programming language capable of manipulating memory, such as C/C++/C# (the languages most multibox programs were most likely written in).


POINT C: Fussing with WoW as it resides in memory is gray area
Not really. Reading WoW's memory is a grey area, ask on the Customer Service forums before you do something risky.
Part two coming soon

[stealthy45]

And we're back to suvega, unable to pay attention to details (or just unlearned):

Btw, for people getting banned for innerspace (Who claim they wern't using botting software): Check this thread: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread…&sid=1&pageNo=1
You're missing something here, let me explain: Loading ISXWoW (which is reads/writes a lot of WoW's memory and has been determined to be against the ToS, and depends on ISXWarden) will get you banned. Those people still had ISXWoW loaded, otherwise Warden wouldn't have picked up on something. It was an honest mistake on their parts, but Blizzard is chosing to not give them the benefit of the doubt because they can't prove they WEREN'T botting, only that they had the dll that makes it possible on InnerSpace loaded.
TL;DR They got banned for ISXWoW, not InnerSpace. ISXWoW will get you banned.

Back to Vyndree:

This is the bit that I'm not so sure about. I could've sworn I saw posts of people who claimed they were banned for IS without the use of botting scripts when playing WoW.
See above.

Untrue.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread…ageNo=1&sid=1#8
Fair enough.

Ellay, the friendly admin:

Alright I spoke with Lax, unlocking the thread. Please be civil hereafter, he's open to answer any questions/issues regarding the software.
Less meany sauce! :love:
Agreed, gotta hate when people jump on the hatewagon. That's why I'm posting.

Suribusi:

I don't want to jump on anyones intelligence here, so don't take this that way. But the fact that you believe some random poster on the wow forums...is...interesting. In the CS forums, there is always more than meets the eye to what people "claim" they were doing, or "not" doing. I think you know this already, and might just be choosing things that support your thoughts and ignoring others. Maybe I'm wrong. :)
Quite right, "welcome to the internet".

Wilbur, another mod:

I'm lost for words with this thread. Several esteemed members of this community have pretty much reduced themselves to salvating morons. You guys really need to do some proper research before you even *THINK* about posting in this thread again, after all, that is what we are all about.
Yeah, I know what you mean.

RobinGBrown:

It doesn't matter how much you keep repeating this or bleating on about the fine distinction between a platform and the bot that uses the platform because it's not relevant to the issue.

You are not trustworthy.
Your opinion is kindly noted and disregarded until you can somehow back it with reason.


The first two questions should answer the legality issue of InnerSpace quite firmly - because if IS attempts to conceal itself or read memory then it is definitely not safe to use.
Please don't make me group you in with suvega, we don't really want that, do we?



1. Does the InnerSpace 'platform' attempt to conceal itself from WoW in any way?

2. Is the Innerspace 'platform' capable of reading or scanning memory/data of WoW in any way?

3. Do people have to pay for Innerspace or Clickboxer?
You'll have to be able to set aside your pretty blatant bias if you want answers.



Ditto, we've all seen your opinion too, and a lot more than 3 times too, it would be nice if you stopped repeating the same thing as well.
Unfortunately, Lax's opinions are backed by fact and logic - more than can be said about yours, from what you have shown us.

Suribusi @ Vyndree:

Apparently not everyone, because all of your questions were answered already in this section of the forums. Maybe of 4th time will help. 8|

-S
We know that, but as I said, she'll have to be able to jump off the hate train at its next stop before she notices.
Up next, part three of my massive wall of text.

[stealthy45]

From Aethon, a new quotee!:

As for Lax's software, I DO support it. I also support Keyclone. I encourage people to try different products and see what they like best. If anyone here is in doubt as to the validity of a particular product, ask on the Blizzard forums, I'm sure sooner or later a Blue will respond. If that Blue's answer isn't good enough for you, email their support, tell them you think product X is ok to use and want them to look if it violates anything. As stated many times on the forums, 1 press, 1 action = ok.
Thank you for demonstrating use of logic and reason, from what I've seen in this thread, it's uncommon around these parts.



And a GM on the forums is not what I would call Blizzard endorsing a product. True, they may work for Blizzard, but it's not the same as a press release stating 'company Q fully backs and supports product Y' they simply say it's 'OK to use at the moment.'
Agreed.

From Sam Deathwalker:

WinEQ2 is a Lax Product (which you PAY for) and is 100percent LEGAL in EQ.

From what I see in this thread IS, by itself, appears to be also legal.

1. It is not hidden from Warden

2. No one who has used it has been banned.

Again I just repeat that it sounds to me the argument made against it would be the exact same argument that because you CAN use the G15 programing software as a platform to violate the TOS then you should not buy any product from Logitech, an argument which I find sophistical to say the least.
Hot damn, two posts in a row from people capable of thinking! Who'da thunk it? ^^

And again from suvega:



LOL I love the analogy, because Blizzard is discriminating against whom? People who use a certain peice of software that they find to be shady?
Stop talking out of your ass Sam, you just make yourself look worse then you already do (which is a pretty hard feat imo)
And the pot calls the kettle black. Your opinion is again noted and disregarded, as it isn't worth anything until you come up with something constructive.


c) Claiming that arguments are coming off as "sad and for once its not sam", and that they are "irrational" but have no counterpoints to the arguements is quite ironic imo ;)
Again, your opinion is worthless, but thanks for being ironic!

Ah boy, another one.
Jrichard:

"Blizzard banned several of us a few years ago for vanilla InnerSpace, just to reverse the bans and give us free time. Some of us have never trusted Blizzard since." as it implies that he doesn't bot.
I'm sorry, but I fail to see the implication?


From lax you see a ton of double talk, which is quite pretty to read, and very little actual answering. Eqjoe seems to be running interference. Then we have the forum moderator who drops into these threads every now and again to insult anyone who speaks up against lax. That's a pretty little setup.
I see no double talk, post quotes.
Again, cite EQJoe's "interference".
It's somewhat sad that you're casting such a negative light on InnerSpace, yet calling out a mod for "insulting anyone who speaks up against lax". Quote this mod for me, would you?



As a platform, does IS allow access to WoW memory space, or read or write to any WoW memory space? I'm not asking if Windows can do it, or if the CPU can do it, I'm asking if IS does it or exposes calls/hooks/fucntions to allow scripts to do it.
WoW doesn't need to allow acces to WoW memory space. Windows already does. There is an extension, ISXGenHack, that has functionality similar to TSearch from what I understand and also allows easy changing of memory. However, this isn't part of the innerspace platform.
I believe InnerSpace does have some sort of capability for modifying memory, but i'm not sure what it is. I simply don't know. It's pretty irrelevant regardless.

Back to Vyndree:

i.e. Is the only REAL differentiation between "you" and "lavish software" useful in order to protect the right hand from what the left hand is doing?
Even if it isn't, will your strong opinion of bias change?

Sorry, big quote.



Quoted from "Lax"
I never said I'm not a representative of my company, I said the product is not a Lavish Software product, and that is what we were discussing.



Actually... this is what you asked in your post. (which I quoted in my response in case you missed it)

Quoted from "Lax"
There are some pretty good arguments against your statements, but I will ask you if you feel that an act of Lavish Software is an act of me, Joe Thaler, as an individual (note that I have employees who also act for Lavish Software). If not, then why is an act of me, Joe Thaler, automatically an act of Lavish Software?


I'm sorry, I believe you missed an important word there "why". He's asking why a personal act is automatically assumed to be an act of his business, not if it is.

Back to jrichard:

Your answers are slick and well prepared, try honest short and succint sometime.
Wow, the bias in this post is well evident.

You said no, then qualified that answer, then asked a question. If you had simply said no i would be satisfied. But when i look at your response i see nothing except evasion. You're the one who hurts your own credibility. Your answers are slick and well prepared, try honest short and succint sometime. Even the next to last line of that post doesn't actually simply say no, it asks another question without actually saying anything. To answer your last question, YES, everything about that post tells me all i need to know about using your software.
I'm sorry if this is just a shortcoming of your community, but generally people try to back up their statements and/or claims to give them substance. You know, so that there's a reason to believe it? Ex. coming up with PROOF when some wise person claimed the earth was not flat nor the center of the universe?
I didn't perceive any evasion there, just a reply.
If by "slick and well prepared", you mean "prepared with use of thought and logic", then yes, his answers are slick and well prepared. You people are capable of thinking OUTSIDE the box here, right?

And we have a pissing contest about semantics at the tail of the thread.

Ok, I think we're up to date :)

[Vyndree]

I really dont see the point. Lets assume he made 100 illegal botting programs... I really dont see where that has anything at all to do with wheather or not his current product violates the TOS. Either the current product does or it does not. If it does then it should not be used if it does not then it can be used.

If Microsoft made 100 programs that could put you in jail, and 1 program that didn't -- would you buy a product from Microsoft and support them even though they make 100 programs you're uncomfortable with?

It's the decision of the buyer -- for sure -- but to me I would prefer (especially since there are other readily-available options out there) to buy one from the company who makes NO programs that could get me in trouble.

[jrichard]

Then let's hear about why isxwarden was distributed from ismods.com, a domain which carries this whois information:

Registrant:
Lavish Software

PO Box 90012
Wyoming, Michigan 49519
United States

Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com)
Domain Name: ISMODS.COM
Created on: 09-Dec-04
Expires on: 09-Dec-08
Last Updated on: 06-Nov-06

Administrative Contact:
Thaler, Joe lax@lavishsoft.com
Lavish Software
PO Box 90012
Wyoming, Michigan 49519
United States
0000000000

Technical Contact:
Thaler, Joe lax@lavishsoft.com
Lavish Software
PO Box 90012
Wyoming, Michigan 49519
United States
0000000000

Domain servers in listed order:
NS1.SHELLPOWER.NET
NS2.SHELLPOWER.NET

[stealthy45]

Sam DeathWalker:

I really dont see the point. Lets assume he made 100 illegal botting programs... I really dont see where that has anything at all to do with wheather or not his current product violates the TOS. Either the current product does or it does not. If it does then it should not be used if it does not then it can be used.

Lax is going to go where the money goes and for sure MORE PEOPLE will pay him for a product that is legel and helps them win, then a product that is illegal and helps them win.

I'm defending his postion and I don't have any ax to grind one way or the other, right now I use and recommend Keyclone. If Lax comes up with a superior product that is legal Ill use that, if he dosn't then I stay with Keyclone. Fairly simple.
I agree, but in the words of a particular mod, these are our opinions, biased or unbiased.
I can't blame him for wanting a paycheck either. I'm also glad he helps people out so much - were it not for the IS community I probably wouldn't have started learning C# and decided to go to college for programming/networking.

[stealthy45]

Jrichard again:

Then let's here about why isxwarden was distributed from ismods.com, a domain which carries this whois information:
I'd say the domain name should be fairly obvious. Let me highlight the interesting part:
ismods. I'll assume you don't know what a mod is, so let me include a definition:
n. The act of modifying or the condition of being modified. A result of modifying. A small alteration, adjustment, or limitation. Biology. Any of the changes in an organism caused by environment or activity and not genetically transmissable to offspring. Linguistics. A change undergone by a word that is borrowed from another language. A phonological change undergone by a word or morpheme when it is used in a construction, as the change of will to 'll in they'llWhich is to say, not stock/vanilla IS stuff.

Edit: A lot of games provide some degree of support for modifications, ex. The Elder Scrolls series. Why shouldn't InnerSpace support customization/extensibility?

[jrichard]

and over and over we've heard how lavish software has nothing to do with isxwarden, yet that's who register the domain.
The isxwow site lists their irc channel to be irc.lavishsoft.com

wow, yeah i see what you mean, lavishsoft has nothing to do with botting.

[Lax]

Then let's hear about why isxwarden was distributed from ismods.com, a domain which carries this whois information:

Registrant:
Lavish Software

PO Box 90012
Wyoming, Michigan 49519
United States

Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com)
Domain Name: ISMODS.COM
Created on: 09-Dec-04
Expires on: 09-Dec-08
Last Updated on: 06-Nov-06

Administrative Contact:
Thaler, Joe lax@lavishsoft.com
Lavish Software
PO Box 90012
Wyoming, Michigan 49519
United States
0000000000

Technical Contact:
Thaler, Joe lax@lavishsoft.com
Lavish Software
PO Box 90012
Wyoming, Michigan 49519
United States
0000000000

Domain servers in listed order:
NS1.SHELLPOWER.NET
NS2.SHELLPOWER.NETAs I explained to Blizzard's attorney at my deposition: The intent is that ismods.com could be run by anyone, it is a site to host Inner Space community content that is not from Lavish Software. The fact that I host it has little to do with the Lavish Software site, and whether Lavish Software markets or produces it. Again, as I have explained, nowhere will you find ISXWarden marketed on the Lavish Software web site.

[Lax]

and over and over we've heard how lavish software has nothing to do with isxwarden, yet that's who register the domain.
The isxwow site lists their irc channel to be irc.lavishsoft.com

wow, yeah i see what you mean, lavishsoft has nothing to do with botting.irc.lavishsoft.com is an IRC server, it also has #macroquest, but MacroQuest is not a Lavish product. Having a channel on irc.lavishsoft.com does not imply an endorsement by Lavish. If you wanted to go on irc.lavishsoft.com and create your own channel, you could too! You're up in arms about literally nothing.

[stealthy45]

Jrichard:

and over and over we've heard how lavish software has nothing to do with isxwarden, yet that's who register the domain.
The isxwow site lists their irc channel to be irc.lavishsoft.com

wow, yeah i see what you mean, lavishsoft has nothing to do with botting.
Uhm.... Yeah, Lax owns a site that hosts all sorts of "mods" (see: the IRC and Vent extensions I frequently ues) for innerspace.
ISXWarden is an extension. It is hosted on a site of possible IS extensions. Where is the problem here?

I'm sure through google you can find the site that hosts ISXWoW, which is what makes "InnerSpace WoW botting" possible. I'm sure you're capable of realizing that Lax *doesn't* own that domain.
In case you're too lazy:
http://whois.domaintools.com/isxwow.net:

Registrant:
Domains by Proxy, Inc.
DomainsByProxy.com
15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353
Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
United States

Domain Name: ISXWOW.NET
Created on: 29-Nov-06
Expires on: 30-Nov-08
Last Updated on: 05-Nov-07

Administrative Contact:
Private, Registration http://source.domaintools.com/email.pgif?md5=e486afae7e85b5a051a0554da78dd8da&face=Atomic_Clock_Radio&size=7&color=000000&bgcolor=FFFFFF&format%5B%5D=transparent&face=Trebuchet&size=9&color=0000FF&bgcolor=FFFFFF&format%5B%5D=underline&format%5B%5D=transparent ('http://www.domaintools.com/registrant-search/?and%5B%5D=e486afae7e85b5a051a0554da78dd8da')
Domains by Proxy, Inc.
DomainsByProxy.com
15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353
Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
United States
(480) 624-2599 Fax -- (480) 624-2598

Technical Contact:
Private, Registration http://source.domaintools.com/email.pgif?md5=e486afae7e85b5a051a0554da78dd8da&face=Atomic_Clock_Radio&size=7&color=000000&bgcolor=FFFFFF&format%5B%5D=transparent&face=Trebuchet&size=9&color=0000FF&bgcolor=FFFFFF&format%5B%5D=underline&format%5B%5D=transparent ('http://www.domaintools.com/registrant-search/?and%5B%5D=e486afae7e85b5a051a0554da78dd8da')
Domains by Proxy, Inc.
DomainsByProxy.com
15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353
Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
United States
(480) 624-2599 Fax -- (480) 624-2598

Domain servers in listed order:
NS15.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
NS16.DOMAINCONTROL.COM

If I recall right, Crowley, one of the ISXWoW devs, is the site admin and is in no way related to Lax.
ISXWoW lists their channel for support to be one of the channels on the LavishNet IRC serve. So?

[jrichard]

Neither lazy nor stupid, show me the actual domain info unhidden by a host.

funny, there's a poster giving programming advice on the isxwow forums named stealthy

and isxwow was hosted by ismods.com until crowley moved to the new domain

and in the wikki for isxwow.net we find none other than eqjoe and wilbur listed as contributors.

nice happy family you all have coming over here.

[Vyndree]

Quoted Multiboxers, as a community, are often misassociated with botters. Multiboxers, in general, would prefer that this no longer happens.

... you see where I'm going here?

Yes, and the solution is simple: Don't automate, thanks.

We don't. People who use LavishSoft (along with "3rd party" scripts and along with things like ISXWarden) do. We would rather not be associated with these sorts of people. Granted, Lavishsoft is a "platform", but it's a "platform" well known by the general populace for botters. Therefore, by reputation, we'd be associated with them.

Your solution is noted. We don't automate. Thanks for the astute observation.




POINT A: Innerspace has the capability of being a platform for bots.

Also see: Any programming language capable of manipulating memory, such as C/C++/C# (the languages most multibox programs were most likely written in).


Quoted POINT C: Fussing with WoW as it resides in memory is gray area

Not really. Reading WoW's memory is a grey area, ask on the Customer Service forums before you do something risky.

Can scripts written for the LavishSoft platform read WoW's memory? Yes.
Therefore, scripts written for the LavishSoft platform are gray area.

Does ClickBoxer? From what I understand from it's "click"-feature -- Yes.
Therefore, since ClickBoxer reads memory -- it is gray area.




she'll have to be able to jump off the hate train at its next stop before she notices.

I can read, for your information. You're an awfully friendly individual for having first shown up here -- you seem to know my entire inner workings from such a simple thread. I'm touched.


Back to Vyndree:

i.e. Is the only REAL differentiation between "you" and "lavish software" useful in order to protect the right hand from what the left hand is doing?
Even if it isn't, will your strong opinion of bias change?

Are you saying the logic behind my bias is flawed? Because a bias, based on facts, wouldn't be considered a bias -- would it?

Can you refute the facts that are the direct cause of my opinion? Or do you think that insulting every member who disagrees with your opinion will be logic enough?



c) Claiming that arguments are coming off as "sad and for once its not sam", and that they are "irrational" but have no counterpoints to the arguements is quite ironic imo ;)
Again, your opinion is worthless, but thanks for being ironic!

I wouldn't comment about people's opinions being worthless. I haven't seen much worthiness in your posts as of yet.






As a platform, does IS allow access to WoW memory space, or read or write to any WoW memory space? I'm not asking if Windows can do it, or if the CPU can do it, I'm asking if IS does it or exposes calls/hooks/fucntions to allow scripts to do it.
WoW doesn't need to allow acces to WoW memory space. Windows already does. There is an extension, ISXGenHack, that has functionality similar to TSearch from what I understand and also allows easy changing of memory. However, this isn't part of the innerspace platform.
I believe InnerSpace does have some sort of capability for modifying memory, but i'm not sure what it is. I simply don't know. It's pretty irrelevant regardless.

You're carrying an awful lot of talk in here for something you "simply do not know".

Windows can change memory -- but an operating system is REQUIRED to play the game. The LavishSoft platform is not required, and while the capability of wrongdoing is not bannable (look at G15's and AHK), they are also not known to have caused mistaken bans in the past either. I don't like AHK, and I think I've made that clear -- and I don't like LavishSoft's platform either. Why? They knowingly allow the use of bots on their systems. They knowingly allow (and in the case of ISXWarden, distribute) ToU/Eula-breaking products that they know, if caught, will get their customers banned. They do not have the good of the customer in mind.

Windows? C++? They are but pawns in the hands of the user.

You're not asking people to use "just a platform". You're asking them to use a developer-written script FOR the LavishSoft platform, that -- like any other LavishSoft script (like ISXWarden, ISXWoW) -- has the capability of doing actions that are not in-line with the WoW ToU/Eula. The developer has admitted that ClickBoxer utilizes some of the memory-reading features of the LavishSoft platform to provide additional featuresets. You yourself have admitted that you don't know how deep these memory-related features go, and memory-reading features are "gray area".




For one so quick to patronize, mock, and insult a community you are so new to -- you have done a great job of leading by example. At the very least, all of my arguments are backed up with facts, not mockery and heavy-handed namecalling.

While I would love to close this thread -- Ellay has been benevolent enough to leave it open for others to have a COURTEOUS discussion. If you insist on slinging insults on your first day in the community against MULTIPLE members and mods, action will be taken. If you're honestly invested in HELPING Lax promote his product, I'd cut with the attitude and personal attacks and start with some facts that actually bring value to the conversation. Consider this your "welcome to the dual-boxing forums" first warning.

[stealthy45]

Are you saying the logic behind my bias is flawed? Because a bias, based on facts, wouldn't be considered a bias -- would it?

Can you refute the facts that are the direct cause of my opinion? Or do you think that insulting every member who disagrees with your opinion will be logic enough?
No, I cannot refute the facts. As a coder, I have a very different view of things than you do - you make mountains of molehills. The logic used to arrive at the bias is flawed.


Your solution is noted. We don't automate. Thanks for the astute observation.
Great! You have nothing to worry about. Shocker, that.


Can scripts written for the LavishSoft platform read WoW's memory? Yes.
Therefore, scripts written for the LavishSoft platform are gray area.

Does ClickBoxer? From what I understand from it's "click"-feature -- Yes.
Therefore, since ClickBoxer reads memory -- it is gray area.
So "can" any other multibox application if it so wishes.


I can read, for your information. You're an awfully friendly individual for having first shown up here -- you seem to know my entire inner workings from such a simple thread. I'm touched.
Sarcasm noted; idiocy annoys me.



I wouldn't comment about people's opinions being worthless. I haven't seen much worthiness in your posts as of yet.
Congrats.

AFK, warcraft 3 game.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

Armchair lawyers FTL.

[Vyndree]

The logic used to arrive at the bias is flawed.

No, I cannot refute the facts.

So the data is correct, the logic is flawed, and you show no proof of the latter?


idiocy annoys me.
I'm sorry. It must be hard to live with.


So "can" any other multibox application if it so wishes.

Except that they don't wish to.

ClickBoxer does wish to. Why? To figure out where to click buttons on a UI.

That is the KEY difference. Keyclone doesn't care to read WoW's memory -- why? Because it's just acting like an input device. One-way. Human keypress to client. Most of the other multibox solutions as well -- hardware setups, multibox, synergy, octopus, clonekeys....


All software products should be just emulators of hardware solutions. Hardware doesn't read WoW's memory and make reactions based on what it finds (i.e. clicking in the center of a UI button). A human person behind the keys should always be the one making the active decisions -- and while reading memory for the purpose of clicking on a button SEEMS harmless -- it's not up to us to decide what is right and what is wrong. It's up to Blizzard. And, as for how it stands now, it's leaning on the side of "wrong".


Congrats.

For what? Pointing out the obvious?

[Souca]

Quoted
As a platform, does IS allow access to WoW memory space, or read or write to any WoW memory space? I'm not asking if Windows can do it, or if the CPU can do it, I'm asking if IS does it or exposes calls/hooks/fucntions to allow scripts to do it.

WoW doesn't need to allow acces to WoW memory space. Windows already does. There is an extension, ISXGenHack, that has functionality similar to TSearch from what I understand and also allows easy changing of memory. However, this isn't part of the innerspace platform.
I believe InnerSpace does have some sort of capability for modifying memory, but i'm not sure what it is. I simply don't know. It's pretty irrelevant regardless.

Please be so kind as to attribute me in your quotes so I know that you are attacking me personally.

- Souca -

[keyclone]

as i cannot comment directly on the OP (that wouldn't be right), i can address the response of the mods and members of the community

we all (really) love multi-boxing and have put many hours (days/weeks) of time into supporting the community, its members, and have done what we can to insure companies like Blizzard and Sony are happy with our hobby by pointing out the distinct differences between multi-boxing and botting. to this end, i believe we have been very successful in nurturing the ember that was multi-boxing into a valid play style accepted by these major corporations. it has not been easy as we have suffered many attacks, some personal and some a bit more. through it all, the community has held together, behaved maturally / admirably (well... except for skuggo... j/k :D ). this is why i am proud to call myself a member.

after all that, to have someone that is associated with one of the biggest legal thorns in Blizzard's side is obviously counter intuitive to our goals.

all reactions are going to be understandably defensive.

since theses forums do not discuss any websites or software that is against the EULA/TOS or bannable, the path ahead should be clear.

just my 2cp worth.

Rob

[Ellay]

I should of left it locked when I did, this topic got out of control.