Blue post on lava burst and lightning damage

[Fuzzyboy]

"Now we think that Lava Burst is doing appropriate damage for its cost and if anything Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning are a little too good. (Remember they benefit from Curse of the Elements and similar spells now.) However, nerfing lightning would make it harder to level as well as making 3.0.2 kind of brutal for Elemental shamans, since Lava Burst is level 75. Hurting lightning would feel like a flat out nerf, and even though you'd partially make up for it at higher level, overall we think this would feel, um, yucky. So no big changes to lightning spells."

http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=19788.0

To me, this sounds like lightning bolt is working as intended atm. I havent had a chance to test it myself yet, as my wotlk client is still patching. Any of the active beta users have any feedback on how well LB is wokring atm? Does it feel weaker than usual? Or isn't the coeff nerf all that noticable*?

[Niley]

its much weaker then on live, basically i can crit unbuffed for around 4500ish on live, yet on beta my best try, with all totems down, was just under 4k.
DPS is also weak, on live i do 2300 dps on average, on a fight like brutallus, on beta with flask/food etc etc and a moonkin/warlock in my group i barely broke 2200. Now that does sound like its almost the same...but then compare it to that offspec boomkin doing almost 3k, and a mage doing almost the same, and it seems weak.

[Alienenduro]

Fuzzy is that you in the avatar picture?

[Fuzzyboy]

Fuzzy is that you in the avatar picture?Yeah, I'm too sexy!

No, it's George Costanza from Seinfeld from an episode of George flirting with the photo-shop-store girl :)

[gobtol]

Fuzzy is that you in the avatar picture?It's George Costanza from Seinfeld. He took that picture so this girl at the photo place would see it when she developed his pics, but some big black guy developed them instead.

Edit: He beat me to it.

[Fuzzyboy]

its much weaker then on live, basically i can crit unbuffed for around 4500ish on live, yet on beta my best try, with all totems down, was just under 4k.
DPS is also weak, on live i do 2300 dps on average, on a fight like brutallus, on beta with flask/food etc etc and a moonkin/warlock in my group i barely broke 2200. Now that does sound like its almost the same...but then compare it to that offspec boomkin doing almost 3k, and a mage doing almost the same, and it seems weak.Ack, that doesn't sound good. Lets hope they fix this - obviously we're not meant to do that little dps. In the post he mentioned including lava burst in the rotation, I'll test once the premades have been transferred to my account.

[Hor]

"(Remember they benefit from Curse of the Elements and similar spells now.)"

So, our damage is being limited based on having a warlock in the party? I'm confused. I thought that the point of a lot of these cross buff stacking nerfs was to encourage people to not HAVE to have a particular class in group/raid to be effective. This seems somewhat counterintuitive to me.

[Niley]

this is the best i could do, my gear isnt as good as live, and this was with 50/13/0 spec.
http://img523.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2400pp9.jpg
oh and this was with heroism...
This is my wws from last brutallus for compario:
http://wowwebstats.com/31oxqvdbf5gnq?s=162035-188422

[bodefeld]

"(Remember they benefit from Curse of the Elements and similar spells now.)"

So, our damage is being limited based on having a warlock in the party? I'm confused. I thought that the point of a lot of these cross buff stacking nerfs was to encourage people to not HAVE to have a particular class in group/raid to be effective. This seems somewhat counterintuitive to me.

I second that. Blizzard's Devs constantly point out the new benefit from CoE for shamans. It appears to me that they are so busy fine-tuning WotLK raid encounters that they have forgotten about the questing and solo play.

Plus, the shamans don't get lava burst until 75, which leaves us de facto nerfed till up to that point.

[Schwarz]

its much weaker then on live, basically i can crit unbuffed for around 4500ish on live, yet on beta my best try, with all totems down, was just under 4k.
DPS is also weak, on live i do 2300 dps on average, on a fight like brutallus, on beta with flask/food etc etc and a moonkin/warlock in my group i barely broke 2200. Now that does sound like its almost the same...but then compare it to that offspec boomkin doing almost 3k, and a mage doing almost the same, and it seems weak.

How does this work? I figure when 3.0 goes live I will gain ~500 spell damage (280ish from totem of wrath and 200ish from flame tonugue wep). I don't understand why the damage would be going down and not up. I would think moving from +1100 spell damage to +1600 spell damage would be a nice increas in dps. Apparently not huh.

What is your +spell damage on live vs ptr?

[Fuzzyboy]

"(Remember they benefit from Curse of the Elements and similar spells now.)"

So, our damage is being limited based on having a warlock in the party? I'm confused. I thought that the point of a lot of these cross buff stacking nerfs was to encourage people to not HAVE to have a particular class in group/raid to be effective. This seems somewhat counterintuitive to me.Yes, a warlock, a druid or a DK (Ebon Plaguebringer, Earth and Moon, Curse of the Elements). And you're right, it does seem counterintuitive requiring either a warlock, a balance druid or an unholy knight to do full damage, but I guess the same is true for other spell dps classes.

[Fuzzyboy]

this is the best i could do, my gear isnt as good as live, and this was with 50/13/0 spec.
http://img523.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2400pp9.jpg
oh and this was with heroism...
This is my wws from last brutallus for compario:
http://wowwebstats.com/31oxqvdbf5gnq?s=162035-188422Are you level 70 in those tests? So without lava burst?

[Niley]

its much weaker then on live, basically i can crit unbuffed for around 4500ish on live, yet on beta my best try, with all totems down, was just under 4k.
DPS is also weak, on live i do 2300 dps on average, on a fight like brutallus, on beta with flask/food etc etc and a moonkin/warlock in my group i barely broke 2200. Now that does sound like its almost the same...but then compare it to that offspec boomkin doing almost 3k, and a mage doing almost the same, and it seems weak.

How does this work? I figure when 3.0 goes live I will gain ~500 spell damage (280ish from totem of wrath and 200ish from flame tonugue wep). I don't understand why the damage would be going down and not up.

What is your +spell damage on live vs ptr?1


its not 280, but 140 at 70.
and here You go:
http://img73.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wowscrnshot100708103518jn0.jpg

I have about 120ish less on live with totems down, i also have 140 more haste on live.


change comes from much lower co efficient of lb.

[Fuzzyboy]

its much weaker then on live, basically i can crit unbuffed for around 4500ish on live, yet on beta my best try, with all totems down, was just under 4k.
DPS is also weak, on live i do 2300 dps on average, on a fight like brutallus, on beta with flask/food etc etc and a moonkin/warlock in my group i barely broke 2200. Now that does sound like its almost the same...but then compare it to that offspec boomkin doing almost 3k, and a mage doing almost the same, and it seems weak.

How does this work? I figure when 3.0 goes live I will gain ~500 spell damage (280ish from totem of wrath and 200ish from flame tonugue wep). I don't understand why the damage would be going down and not up. I would think moving from +1100 spell damage to +1600 spell damage would be a nice increas in dps. Apparently not huh.

What is your +spell damage on live vs ptr?This is probably due to the change to the spelldamage coefficient. As I understand it, they lowered how much out lightning spells gain from our spell damage.

[Niley]

this is the best i could do, my gear isnt as good as live, and this was with 50/13/0 spec.
http://img523.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2400pp9.jpg
oh and this was with heroism...
This is my wws from last brutallus for compario:
http://wowwebstats.com/31oxqvdbf5gnq?s=162035-188422Are you level 70 in those tests? So without lava burst?

72 as seen in the screenshot, so no lvb

and just as a fun fact, when beta went live first, this is the bolts that i was getting self buffed:
http://img215.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wowscrnshot081508183318lc1.jpg

QQ? =(

[Fuzzyboy]

I guess we'll just have to accept that from 3.0 we're broken until lvl 75 :-(

[Niley]

I guess we'll just have to accept that from 3.0 we're broken until lvl 75 :-(

I think we're broken way beyond that, we don't scale.

[Schwarz]

Sounds like an apples to oranges comparision. I understand that the coeffiecient on LB has been lowered. But you are trying to compare a

level 70 shaman with ~1400 +spell damage and ~500 haste

to a

level 72 shaman with ~1520 +spell damage and ~360 haste

There once was a czar that was told the providence that was most effected by the plauge also had the most doctors. So he had all the doctor's killed.

[Niley]

Sounds like an apples to oranges comparision. I understand that the coeffiecient on LB has been lowered. But you are trying to compare a

level 70 shaman with ~1400 +spell damage and ~500 haste

to a

level 72 shaman with ~1520 +spell damage and ~360 haste

There once was a czar that was told the providence that was most effected by the plauge also had the most doctors. So he had all the doctor's killed.'
with the gear i had on beta i was doing 2160 dps on live. Its a very well known fact that LB hits much lower, even if You gain 300 spell damage from new talents and such.
Infact my dps would be even lower as ill have to gem for spell hit.

[Fuzzyboy]

I guess we'll just have to accept that from 3.0 we're broken until lvl 75 :-(

I think we're broken way beyond that, we don't scale.I think it's too soon to tell, but if that's the case I'm sure it'll be fixed. If endgame encounters show a significant dps difference, I'm sure it'll be handled.

[rbaldwin7]

@Niley: What addon is that for your DPS?

[Multibocks]

/conspiracy theory on
I almost feel that this is a direct nerf to shamans on purpose. To do good dps you need a warlock/dk/druid in your group and that completely ruins the synergy of a 5 shaman MBer. It troubles me that they don't care about the coefficient on LB will not scale well late into lich king.

[zanthor]

Sky
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V

That is all.

[Multibocks]

I don't get it.



































YOU SO FUNNY!

[puppychow]

Blizzard does not factor multiboxers into their "comp calculations". We make up such a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny percentage of their userbase. Now of course if one comp suddenly is super OP they will nerf it, but usually it takes forever-and-a-day, and more relates to raiding/PVP stacking than really multiboxers (ex: stacking shamans for heroism/chain heal, stacking warriors for execute, etc).

Blizzards WOTLK philosophy is that most DPS specs should perform around the same, so that a group can pick the tank(s), healer(s), and DPSers and not worry so much about whether what class your friend is, just whether he is good at his class or not. So while it sucks that ele shamans kind of need a boomkin/warlock to pump out more DPS, it goes along the idea of that you can group with EITHER one, instead of always having to take a affliction warlock for his malediction curse.

Unfortunately they are in super crunch mode, and some classes are far and away better than others. At the moment, rogues and deathknights are the kings of DPS, followed by retadins, boomkins, hunters. Elemental shamans are pretty much at the bottom, especially as gear gets better (other classes scale much better). Maybe they will fix it, maybe not. There is a lot of class balance issues in the game right now, including a lot of healing issues, so realistically they are going to first ensure every class has at least one good spec, before ensuring all specs are decent. Elemental shamans have always been the red headed stepchild, behind resto and enhance, and I doubt that'll change much in wotlk for a while.

[Fuzzyboy]

/conspiracy theory on
I almost feel that this is a direct nerf to shamans on purpose. To do good dps you need a warlock/dk/druid in your group and that completely ruins the synergy of a 5 shaman MBer. It troubles me that they don't care about the coefficient on LB will not scale well late into lich king.What puppychow said. Also, this isn't a nerf to boxers even if that was their reason for nerfing. With a warlock/druid in the group or with a mage/lock/druid group, that would be fixed. Of course, that's in relation to PvE, but still.

I do think it's a shame that they put the coeff nerf in 3.0. I could live with 5 levels of lower dps once WotLK is out, because most classes are balanced with the top-level in mind, but it's a damn shame that we'll be effectively broken until wotlk comes out - it would be more professional to wait with the coeff nerf until wotlk is released but hey, it's only a month.

[Multibocks]

Most of you are missing the /conspiracy theory on part.


maybe they should make another emote for you guys


/jokegoingoveryourhead

can thank me later for it.

[wizofid]

So as a new MBer with his 5 shamans at 26, should I rethink my classes before I contine much farther?

[Fuzzyboy]

maybe they should make another emote for you guys


/jokegoingoveryourhead

can thank me later for it.Oh ok. Since it wasn't funny, I assumed it wasn't a joke ;-)

[Fuzzyboy]

So as a new MBer with his 5 shamans at 26, should I rethink my classes before I contine much farther?Play what classes you have fun playing. It's still beta and nothing is certain :-)

Edit: Oh, and also, it very much depends on your goal. A holy trinity group will be able to do most 5 man PvE content simply because thats what the content is designed for. As for PvP it changes :)

[wizofid]

Well I guess it is always a bit of a crapshoot with an expansion, but I guess I want some assurances that the combination of players I am leveling will be capable of handling Heroics in the expansion. The only "safe bet" would probably a mixture of classes, since that is what Bizzard is designing the encounters for: Like Pally, boomkin, shadow priest, shaman, shaman.

[Lyonheart]

Even WITH the nerfs. What makes multi-shamans a good class to MB is simplicity, and that will not change! Even WITH the nerf they can heal..rez..self rez..totems still help a lot!. AND we get HEX at 80 which will make the instance farming that much more safe/easy. So, IMO, one tank+4shaman will still be the best MB group, all things considered.

Also the 30 days of nerf wont hurt me much as i intend to level some 60s to 70 before launch. Including a druid AND warlock hehe. So if a druid makes a BIG difference( or lock) I might bite the bullet and make one part of my team. But if i can complete 5 man content with my paly and 4 shaman, I don"t mind losing a little DPS (for simplicity's sake).

[Aradar]

Unfortunately, I think some of you may be brushing Niley's statements aside too easily. If you go to the WotLK beta forums, her post are a dime a dozen all the way from level 70 to 80. Some are even suggesting that weaving flame shock and lava burst in to your dps rotation does worse than just lightning bolts and chain lightning alone.

I generally stay out of these conversations because 1) I assume/hope Blizz will eventually get it right and 2) I'm not much of an "elitist jerk" for lack of a better term (meaning I don't get into the number crunching much) but this complaint seems to be becomnig very prevalent on the beta forums and the class designer seems to be a bit of an asshat in that he says stuff that makes no sense or is very condescending.

Somehow there is a deep devide between the game designers who actually think we do to much damage (personally I think the majority of their testing is done in optimal raiding situations where every buff/debuff you could want you get) and those testing shamans on the beta in gameplay who say we sometimes get beat by tanks.

I guess only time will tell and hopefully it gets sorted out in the end...

[Hachoo]

I'm not really worried. Personally I see this a couple ways:

1) Theres no way shamans will be nerfed so bad they're unplayable while multiboxing - seriously, this just won't happen, it never has happened to ANY class regardless of what anyone says, sure some classes get nerfed to where they're "less effect" but not so bad that everyone just stops playing them. If they are nerfed so bad its hard to level they will be buffed, this is how blizzard has always done it and anyone who says otherwise is a conspiracy theorist or an overreactor/exaggerator

2) RAF means leveling a second team is easy. Personally I'm working on a priest + 4 locks right now, will be a great PvP team i think. Worst case is you could boost a pally to level 60 instantly and level that to 70 to be a tank for your 4 shamans which would still make them EASILY able to solo heroics.

[Fuzzyboy]

I'm not really worried. Personally I see this a couple ways:

1) Theres no way shamans will be nerfed so bad they're unplayable while multiboxing - seriously, this just won't happen, it never has happened to ANY class regardless of what anyone says, sure some classes get nerfed to where they're "less effect" but not so bad that everyone just stops playing them. If they are nerfed so bad its hard to level they will be buffed, this is how blizzard has always done it and anyone who says otherwise is a conspiracy theorist or an overreactor/exaggerator
There's truth to this statement.

Also, keep in mind that grouped with a druid/lock/DK, our damage is, at worst, back to normal.

[Hor]

I've decided in light of all this talk of LBs effectiveness to sub in a Druid I had sitting around, I gifted him and parked him along with a bunch of others (I'm sitting on about 20x 60+ toons since RAF started, not including my 70 PVP Rogue). So now my group comp is going to be Paladin, Druid, 3x Shamans. I'm moving my other Shaman to my second team, DK, Mage x2, and Shaman x2.

[Multibocks]

GL mbing a DK as a tank. Can you say 20 situational abilities to macro? Ugh. I wish the class were more simple =/

[valkry]

This can be very easily fixed by giving us a stackable buff much like the moonkin buff after lightning attacks so that we don't have to rely on a lock/dk/moonkin being there in raids or being nerfed for solo play.

[Hor]

GL mbing a DK as a tank. Can you say 20 situational abilities to macro? Ugh. I wish the class were more simple =/Well, I usually play the tank. So, I don't think it'll be that big a deal, but just incase. I'm levelling some Paladins right now ... incase I'm just going to HAVE to have Palis to tank all of my groups. I'm still hopeful though.

[Fuzzyboy]

I just tested the newest beta build on the premade level 80 shaman and the premade lvl 80 druid - this is obviously solo, so without class synergies. I was able to parse an average of 1620 dps on my shaman, 1650 dps on my druid (on lvl 80 training dummy). I experimented a bit with castsequences to get it right, but I might have missed some timings. Even so, after testing I'm really not that worried about the dps issues. Should it turn out that the druid has 100 dps more than the shaman, I still think the synergies will make it worth it.

[Fuzzyboy]

Oh, also I didn't spec for elemental oath on the shaman, so the dps is likely on the low side.

[wizofid]

Great!

[Schwarz]

So to recap

level 70 2300 dps
level 72 2200 dps
..
..
level 80 1650 dps

[Fuzzyboy]

So to recap

level 70 2300 dps
level 72 2200 dps
..
..
level 80 1650 dpsExactly ;-)

No reason to mention the fact that one is solo, one is raid buffed, one test is done on a training dummy and another is on a fully debuffed raid boss, gear differences, pvp spec gear vs. pve spec gear, sequence differences, different specs and the fact that the same measurement tools may not have been used ;-)

[asonimie]

You can NOT balance classes based on raid buff/debuff situations. All dps classes should be balanced standalone, and any auras/debuffs gained through cross-class synergy should be looked at as bonus dmg. This is my opinion, you can't force people to be grouped with certain other classes just to be equal.

I am not horribly worried about this situation as I'm sure it will be remedied somehow, but as a 5boxer shaman and avid PVP addict I have a right to be concerned.