No more gear from BGS :(

[Bradster]

From what I’ve read on the general official wow forums (despite the source) due to the amount of talk I have more reason to believe that there will be “No epics from BGS”. Only arena may you receive epics. At first I figured it was a troll post but more and more people are flooding in making new posts about it, I think this is the real deal.

If I was a single boxer, I would be forced to quit the game if this does go live. The reason being is the times I play. I can never find a group, also I don’t enjoy arena at all. It’s not that it’s a fair fight or anything else it’s just a small duel instanced to me isn’t as fun. There no elements of surprise there is no “war” so to speak just a small duel. There is no war; no creeping up behind some hill and raining down AOE as a caster, none of the stuff that makes wow what it is for me. Blizzard is now forcing everyone in to the arena grind if you want PVP gear.

After reading the very disturbing news, I figured before I jump overboard let me look at this logically. Perhaps this could be a “Buff” for boxers. Outside of arena if no PVP gear exists (other than blues lol) then couldn’t PVE gear be valuable again? Wouldn’t that give boxers an edge in this case since we can farm gear pretty easily? Again I’m trying to look at this from a positive angle.
Pre Battle grounds I remember I used to play a rogue, I’d spend all night LFG only to realize that 50% of the server was rogues, I know because every single reply I received was “Sorry full on Rogues”. My once fun character was no longer fun after people started getting instance gear; while I was in level 45 greens. I was forced to reroll and picked Hunter. I was actually able to get groups once in a while and I found myself able to compete and enjoy the game for a while until Guilds started getting MC and BWL on farm. Which point the problem resurfaced. Long story short to combat this problem I would reroll play till 50 (before any epics entered the picture) Once I hit 50 I’d reroll again, sometimes even the same class. I did this just for the pvp experience leveling up to 50 as it was even experience, and most of all fun!

Today I have means to run almost anything I want (5man). Will that hold some wealth in the future? I really hope so. I or anyone else shouldn't be forced to play something they don't enjoy to advance imo. I enjoy instances so if that works to compete then it works for me.

[Ticks]

I can't confirm this at the moment but I believe the zone pvp stuff they're implementing will award arena points. I'm guessing but I think BGs will die a slow death. But if I had to endure doing AV at level 80 to gear up again, I think I will /wrists.

[Anjuna]

I agree man. That would suck. Welfare pvp gear has been my only means of survival out in the world. I don't like how the whole rock, paper, scissors shit works out. Even though I have at least 1 toon per class, I have no desire to grind arena matches all night and deal with flaky teammates that will leave if you get a losing streak. I'd rather see more war and carnage. Wintergrasp is pretty fun and I hope SoA is too, but its all gonna suck if the gear is so mismatched.

btw, i love your new vid. :D

IMA FIRIN MAH LAZER!!!

[TheBigBB]

They really need to make more maps for BGs. It's ridiculous that we're still doing the same tired maps. Make 2 or 3 maps per.

As for epics, having all epics in the arena will greatly shorten time spent doing PVP. I can't stand the honor grind. I'd rather do arena, however much I don't like arena battles, sometimes you can get your 10 games in the time it'd take to do a single AV. Also, it shouldn't be the case that getting epics amounts to nothing more than a time sink. You should have to earn them. Right now, only the top top top stuff has to be genuinely earned.

[puppychow]

wow's PVP system is completely and utterly broken, WAR is superior in every imaginable way to WoW with regards to PVP. WOW PVE however is far and away ahead of WAR, with the exception of the innovative Public Quests and Tome of Knowledge in WAR. It pretty much sucks for players - the PVE only crowd loves WoW, the PVP only crowd will vastly prefer WAR, but for those of us who kinda like to do a little of both neither game is very satisfactory anymore.

[Ticks]

I bought, installed and played Warhammer for 4 hours and I don't feel like playing it. I don't know what it is but the combat mechanics are so klunky. It felt like I had to smash my buttons over and over to get one thing to happen. I also can't stand the way characters move. Their straffing movement leans way too much. All in all, it just doesn't feel polished like Warcraft. Perhaps they may get there but for now, I will continue with Warcraft until I see some smoother combat experience.

[Bradster]

I agree man. That would suck. Welfare pvp gear has been my only means of survival out in the world. I don't like how the whole rock, paper, scissors shit works out. Even though I have at least 1 toon per class, I have no desire to grind arena matches all night and deal with flaky teammates that will leave if you get a losing streak. I'd rather see more war and carnage. Wintergrasp is pretty fun and I hope SoA is too, but its all gonna suck if the gear is so mismatched.

btw, i love your new vid. :D

IMA FIRIN MAH LAZER!!!Perhaps they will have a Rep grind for PVP gear. Thats what i'm using right now and just recently hitting 70 like 2 weeks again its a large improvement over what I had before. I will admit this recent news for the first time last night I visited the WAR site. Had no interest in the game what so ever because I enjoy wow. But you can't box War per the TOS i've read here :(

IMMA FIRING MAH LAZERS!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bradster]

They really need to make more maps for BGs. It's ridiculous that we're still doing the same tired maps. Make 2 or 3 maps per.

/agree!

[Rowdysattva]

Source?

Can anyone confirm anything more solid on this?

8|

[Catamer]

there used to be only pvp epics when you were the top rated teams, and if you didn't play arena for a week you lost your rating and lost your gear.

Sounds like they are trying to roll back the game.

I just want to know how a non-rated team is supposed to ever get a 1650 rating when all of the 1650 rated teams are in epics and the non-rated teams are in blues or greens.
I have a solo warlock with a 1400 rating and lots of pvp epics ( nothing brutal but the gloves ).

[Hachoo]

Yeah this whole idea is pretty stupid...give the people that already have an advantage more of one..riiiiiight...

The point above is very good - what happens when all the 1600+ rated teams are in epics, and someone that hasn't done arena before tries to get involved...how on earth is he ever going to get a rating to get epic gear if he can't get a rating because he can't beat any teams that already have their epic gear.

Arena would be a lot better IMO if it did a gear point check on everyone on the team as you queued, and only played you against someone with "relatively" similar points worth of gear.

[Bradster]

there used to be only pvp epics when you were the top rated teams, and if you didn't play arena for a week you lost your rating and lost your gear.

Sounds like they are trying to roll back the game.

I just want to know how a non-rated team is supposed to ever get a 1650 rating when all of the 1650 rated teams are in epics and the non-rated teams are in blues or greens.
I have a solo warlock with a 1400 rating and lots of pvp epics ( nothing brutal but the gloves ). I like to think of it as the US economy when it comes to Taxes.

The poor get poorer
Middle Class: That was a nice game you played, had you had the same gear it was clear you would of won. Sorry you don’t have a high enough rating because of it. No gear for you.
Upper class: Enjoy god mode XD
It’s a good thing to base the PVP system off of; there are no flaws with the us Economy :P

[Schwarz]

I for one like these changes. I think it is utter bs that people were getting t4/t5 and even t6 equivalent gear by doing nothing but putting in 10 games a week. The only season that blizzard didn't mess up was this last season where you need a rating for almost every piece of gear. I am a firm believer that the people clearing the hardest pve content should have the best gear in the game. Way Way Way better than anything in pvp.

Farming bg's for hours on end isn't fun too me. So I am happy to see the change away from bg epics. As far as level 80 arena goes I might start up again when that happens. I started my team 6-7months ago and didn't have the heart to farm all the s2 stuff. Arena is always going to be an unbalanced system that requires you to be geared to compete.


edit:

Did welfare epics show up after s3 went live? Before that didn't you have to do arena to get any "good" gear.

[Rin]

I dont believe that Blizzard will go this route. If your source is the forum post that just popped up recently from the gentleman citing that he doesn't believe
"Welfare epics" should exist in the game anymore, I don't think you have anything to fear. If you've received word from a blue post, or something more substaintial
then we'll have to work around that issue. Lets discuss why Blizzard wouldn't take the PvP Epic system out of the game:

- Blizzard is not well known for "reverting" their game - especially back to the "dark" ages, as a change like this would interfere with the game in several different ways. As someone has already cited, think about what would happen if you fought a fully-epic'd low rated pvp team, and you're in blues. Disaster.

- Epics neither hurt nor harm the majority of the populus playing WoW - that's why they implemented them in the first place. PvE'ers have their own game, PvP'ers can participate in their own game. Both sets of gear have advantages in different situations.

Furthermore, I don't think this change would affect us (even if it were true and went live). Here's why:

- Those of us 5-boxing, 10-boxing, etc. can easily put together enough people to raid 20-25 man content. The challenge isn't finding the people, but rather, actively studying the habits of end-game npcs, and then setting up your positioning around the boss. It seems logical that a 25-man team with appropriate gear could successfully take down many of the end-game bosses.

- If the change was live, Blizzard would have to create a system so that everyone could successfully participate in the arenas. If only N-people can compete in the arenas, and BG's become worthless, many subscriptions will be lost.

[Bradster]

- If the change was live, Blizzard would have to create a system so that everyone could successfully participate in the arenas. If only N-people can compete in the arenas, and BG's become worthless, many subscriptions will be lost.That's my thinking as well. A great of these posts popped up last night, one of which I took part in reached 15 pages and was locked today about the changes made in beta. I'm on the same page on your thinking. I hope they do not take a step back from a system that everyone can advance in with team mates or not.

edit: they were locked due to the amount of "OMG I'm leaving for war if this is true" posts

[sqeaky4100]

Keep the current system the way it is... but add/make:

- All BG's roughly the same length ( they almost are already)
- All BG's worth the same honor. This KILLED BG's... it not only made AV into an AFK fest, but it also created WSG/AB/EoTS a grind that people only did for marks.

- Create 2-3 new BGs. I can't believe we have put up with 2-4 for sooooo long. Imagine if Halo only have 4 maps? My god...
- Make a night/stormy/day setting for each BG. And have it set on random. ( it does this sortof I think already, I remember a few RARE rainy ABs )
- Make different gametype varients for each BG.
The maps are already perfect mirrors. So it's perfectly possible to make different types of games on each map. ( for instance, imagine an AB/EoTS that had nodes that were captured and locked... so it was a race to capture the first 3 and you win. However, nodes are tough to capture )
- The new BG is a great idea, more of it! Keep BGs intiresting and REWARDING every time.
Like keep the same system for buying gear, but add another system ( maybe even related to achievements ) ... such as - rewardable mounts, banners you can place somewhere, etc etc... but keep it separate from the current gear purchasing method.

[Rin]

Another thought too -

Did anyone mention if Blizz was going to remove the rating required on the items? IMHO, it seems like they would have to do something if they removed epics from BG's, especially if you need an 1700+ rating to get something nice. Yet, if they indeed remove the rating required on the items, you're going to get people who go into the arena just to lose. Even with a 1100 (lol; don't even think this is possible) rating in 5v5, it would only take you half a year to get full epic armor - losing each battle.

[Prepared]

My 2 cents worth is that the way Blizzard has it now with battelgrounds (BGs) awarding epics not as good as epics given by the top arena players is exactly right. It shouldn't change. Those that participate and keep playing BGs after they've reached the top level of the game are rewarded basically through time played. Those that participate and keep playing arenas are rewarded after they get good at it but they get better gear than those that put in the time into BGs. So to me it's all fair and the way it ought to be. Maybe Warhammer Online has a better method to some, but I like the way the BGs are right now as they are.

It could be that when the expansion is released, there will be very little epics awarded doing BGs just like when Burning Crusade was released and as the seasons changed, better gear became available just as better gear became available doing arena's. This might be where the confusion is from the Blizzard forums. It might be that there will be far less epics at the start of the first season in Wrath of the Lich King just as there were not that many when Burning Crusade was released and as the seasons evolved, more gear was made available.

[Caspian]

MMO Champion ('http://www.mmo-champion.com/') (and I am sure other places) has the level 80 PvP gear and costs up.

Basically there is Blue Gear with no rating costs then 2 levels of Epic gear with 2 levels of rating requirements. ALL gear requires both arena and honor points. You do get arena points from Wintergrasp, at a pretty good rate. At least I did when I could actually play it.

Also announced is that they are wiping honor as well as arena but there will be "special" items available for honor before WotLK ships. I can't find any firm data on what those will be, can anyone else?


From MMO Champion level 80 PvP stuffs.


HP = Honor Point
AP = Arena Point
AR = Arena Rating

Savage Gladiator
Chest - 0 AR - 6000 HP and 350 AP
Hands - 0 AR - 3600 HP and 200 AP
Head - 0 AR - 6000 HP and 350 AP
Legs - 0 AR - 6000 HP and 350 AP
Shoulder - 0 AR - 4800 and 275 AP
MH Weapons - 0 AR - 8400 HP and 475 AP
OH Weapons & Items - 0 AR - 3600 HP and 200 AP
Shields - 0 AR - 6000 HP and 350 AP
2H Weapons - 0 AR - 12000 HP and 700 AP
Caster 1H Weapons - 0 AR - 10000 HP and 575 AP
Ranged Weapon - 0 AR - 12000 HP and 700 AP
Throwing Weapon - 0 AR - 3200 HP and 175 AP
Wands & Relics - - 0 AR - 3200 HP and 175 AP

Hateful Gladiator
Chest - 1725 AR - 6000 HP and 700 AP
Hands - 1665 AR - 3600 HP and 400 AP
Head - 1785 AR - 6000 HP and 700 AP
Legs - 1695 AR - 6000 HP and 700 AP
Shoulder - 1825 AR - 4800 and 550 AP
MH Weapons - 1755 AR - 8400 HP and 950 AP
OH Weapons & Items - 1755 AR - 3600 HP and 400 AP
Shields - 1755 AR - 6000 HP and 700 AP
2H Weapons - 1755 AR - 12000 HP and 1400 AP
Caster 1H Weapons - 1755 AR - 10000 HP and 1150 AP
Ranged Weapon - 1755 AR - 1200 HP and 1400 AP
Throwing Weapon - 1755 AR - 3200 HP and 350 AP
Wands - 1755 AR - 3200 HP and 350 AP

Deadly Gladiator:
Chest - 2020 AR - 2250 AP
Hands - 1900 AR - 1350 AP
Head - no AR - 6000 HP and 350 AP ( Most likely bugged )
Legs - 1960 AR - 2250 AP
Shoulder - 2200 AR - 1800 AP
MH Weapons - 2080 AR - 3150 AP
OH Weapons & Items - 2080 AR - 1350 AP
Shields - 2080 AR - 2250 AP
2H Weapons - 2080 AR - 4500 AP
Caster 1H Weapons - 2080 AR - 3150 AP
Ranged Weapon - 2080 AR - 4500 AP
Throwing Weapon - 2080 AR - 1200 AP
Wands - 2080 AR - 1200 AP My personal take is that unless you are VERY VERY good you will be a second class gear citizen and not be able to break across the gear barriers. Unless you are one of the first to get started and rated. Going from blue to the first set of epics there was a 30+ stamina difference on just one piece.

I have talked about this argument before, playing 10 games a week you get a piece every 4 weeks or so in 2v2 maybe 3 weeks in 5v5 if you stay between 1400-1500. With ratings requirements so high on all epic gear, less people will play if there is no reason to. Then the remaining players have a smaller pool of opponents to play against and ratings drop. Teams that would have been 2000 pt teams with full participation drop to 1800 or 1900, teams naturally at 1900 drop to 1700 or 1800 and so on. Pretty soon only the very best teams will remain and nobody will be able to get the highest levels of gear because the points are just not there to get high enough.

To people that worry that "other people are getting too good of gear just playing 10 games a week" I will tell you the same thing I tell my kids, Stop worrying about your sister ( i.e. everyone else) and worry about you. It is in everyone's - Blizzard's, Elite PvPers to ultra casuals, that gear in this type of ladder system, is obtainable by everyone. Some should get it faster, some should take longer but everyone should have a chance to get it. These type of limitations hurt everyone in the long run.

[raz]

Tigole posted that the Arena points being awarded for Lake Wintergrasp are a Beta only thing. It won't go live like that unless they change their mind (which of course could happen).

[Caspian]

Tigole posted that the Arena points being awarded for Lake Wintergrasp are a Beta only thing. It won't go live like that unless they change their mind (which of course could happen).So you have to arena to get any gear at all and achieve higher ratings to get any epics. Well I guess you will still have everyone in there to beat on.

[Dominian]

Calm down guys have everyone forgot the start of TBC?

S1 could only be gained trought arena while you could get blue gear from pvp (sadly it sucked so bad it was useless)

You get gear with resillience on from pve awards have been said (dont remember were thought)

When they launch a new seson the first epic set lose its rating requirment would be my bet. Blizzard wont let people fall behinde without the chance to recover.. :)

[defactoman]

There will also be craftable resilence gear.

Example:
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=43262

I would imagine by the time its released a full set will be available for all classes/types.

[Caspian]

Calm down guys have everyone forgot the start of TBC?

S1 could only be gained trought arena while you could get blue gear from pvp (sadly it sucked so bad it was useless)

You get gear with resillience on from pve awards have been said (dont remember were thought)

When they launch a new seson the first epic set lose its rating requirment would be my bet. Blizzard wont let people fall behinde without the chance to recover.. :)S1 stuff had no rating requirement, all "arena" gear does at this point.

There is badge gear with resil I believe

It has not been the trend to completely remove ratings requirements, it could happen though. The rating requirements will probably be reduced with the release of future seasons. You are correct that is still a wait and see situation.

[Stabface]

Guys, it's going to work rather like when TBC came out. Except there's a new tier of gear now. Or maybe you forgot how PVP gear was when TBC first released?
When TBC released we had L70 blue sets and weapons 'Grand Marshal's / High Warlord's' gear... 1 month later Season 1 started... which gave the same item slots, just in epic versions -- for arena points.

Now at WotLK release we have:

Savage set - blue quality ilvl 200, does not require any arena rating, purchased using mostly honor but some small amount of arena points. These fill the same slots as the old GM/HWL or S1 gear - 5 piece armor, main & offhand items.

Hateful set - epic quality ilvl 200, 2 things here. First, epic upgrades for the same item slots as the 'Savage' set, which are purchased for the same honor cost as Savage but 2x arena points and require some 1700-1800 arena rating. Second, this also has your ring/neck/cloak/bracer/boots/belt/trinket as well which cost *honor only* and do not require any arena points or ranking. Just like the current BG items.

Deadly set - rare quality ilvl 213, the epic upgrades to 'Savage' slots the requires high arena rating (2K+) and costs a lot of arena points (4x as much as Hateful) but no honor points. It's unclear what the ring/neck/cloak/bracer/boots/belt slots will cost yet as I don't know if they are set in game or not. There's apparently no upgraded PvP trinket either.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

To give some of you an idea why there's a ruckus about ALL of the PVP gear requiring at least arena points and most of them fairly steep arena ratings compared to S1-S3 gear, check out the stamina differences from my other thread: ('http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=13939')

+447STA/+222RES for the blue 1st-tier (Savage Gladiator's) 5-pc + dw weapons on a hunter. <--- same gear the guy with 22k HP posted above.
+643 stamina for the purple 3rd-tier (Deadly Gladiator's) 5-pc + dw hunter weapons.
versus today's:
+378 stamina for S4 hunter 5-pc + dw weapons
+317 stamina for S2 hunter 5-pc + dw weapons
And for a frame of reference, the Arena 6 beta gear for locks has:
+644 stamina _just_ for the 5-pc set. I'll see if I can do some math on this in the beta tonight with my premade.

To give you a frame of reference for today's stamina on S1-S4 gear 5-pc plus dw weapons:

S1 = 275
S2 = 317
S3 = 349
S4 = 378

Stamina difference between lowest-tier arena gear and highest LIVE = 37%
Stamina difference between lowest-tier arena gear and highest BETA = 73%

If they go live as is, the disparity between top-ranked teams and noobs will be more than double what it is now. Deadly gladiators will just about be able to 2-man 5v5 teams in greens/blues/PVE gear.

[Bradster]

Hateful set - epic quality ilvl 200, 2 things here. First, epic upgrades for the same item slots as the 'Savage' set, which are purchased for the same honor cost as Savage but 2x arena points and require some 1700-1800 arena rating. Second, this also has your ring/neck/cloak/bracer/boots/belt/trinket as well which cost *honor only* and do not require any arena points or ranking. Just like the current BG items.

8| Ouch, when does War come out?

[Stabface]

First off, NOT ALL OF THE GEAR REQUIRES ARENA POINTS OR ARENA RANKING. Right now the 7 piece epic "Hateful Gladiator" accessories -- boot, belt, bracer, ring, amulet, cloak, trinket -- do NOT require any arena ranking OR arena points. They only require honor.

Second there's a whole load of crafted PvP gear. As a matter of fact, there appears to be a full 8 piece crafted PvP armor for pretty much everyone. It also looks to be CHEAP to craft - the Paladin spell damage plate takes ~15 saronite bars and 1 eternal per piece... which is the equivalent of adamantite bars and primals. So imagine you can get a full 8 pieces of BoE blue L68 PvP gear for ~100 adamantite and 8 primals... sounds pretty good to me?? There is also PvP BoE rings created by JC.


Lastly, the differences are not that big between tiers. I did a quick spreadsheet using the numbers off wowhead for the Paladin spell damage crafted "Ornate Saronite" and the 3 different PvP "Gladiator's Ornamental" 5 piece armor sets.
Note that the crafted set does not have any sockets or set bonus, it is however ilvl 187 and requires L78 to equip, and is all BoE. The PvP sets all have the same sockets and set bonus.



SET STA INT CRIT RESIL SPELL MP5
Ornate 422 44 87 223 301 26
Savage 396 173 161 207 337 0
Hateful 458 201 195 240 397 0
Deadly 459 284 195 271 452 13
Orn->Sav -26 +129 +74 -16 +36 -26
Sav->Hate +62 +28 +34 +33 +60 +0
Hate->Dead +1 +83 +0 +31 +55 +13


I think the plan for getting PvP gear is this:
Start by gearing yourself up with the 8 pieces of crafted armor & crafted ring, plus any quest rewards or instance drops.
Then just do arenas and BGs like usual. If you can get 1800+ rating then you'll be able to buy the epic set, otherwise you get the blue set. Everyone will need to farm a metric truckload of honor for the accessories anyhow. If you're really good at arenas / play a lot to earn a lot of honor, then maybe you can just buy the honor accessories, break 2K rating, and start buying the better epic set.

I don't see how it's really much different than what we have now.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

Heh, thanks for correcting my "all" statement. I should have clarified that the 5-pc armor + weapons was the only stuff I was talking about here.

Regarding the rather huge stat differences between the stuff I saw and what you pulled from WoWhead, I'll hopefully update this with some real beta numbers if I can ever get past all the patches to get in game. :P

[Stabface]

I verified on beta the 5-piece Paladin spell damage sets I listed previously match between wowhead and in-game, the vendor is bugged so can't check prices.

[asonimie]

Arena would be a lot better IMO if it did a gear point check on everyone on the team as you queued, and only played you against someone with "relatively" similar points worth of gear. /AGREEDDDDD@!@#!!@#!!@!! I am boxing my shamans in 5v5 with a 1700 rating (only 3 pieces of s2/s3 gear collected so far... 3 weeks old) and I keep getting matched against re-rolled teams with full s3/s4 gear and a 1600-1700 rating? Absolutely ridiculous. You should be matched against equal gear, and to the victor go the spoils. Thats how they run annual tournaments (identical gear - just battle it out based on skill), and yet they neglect the idea here. Queueing is broken, and it seems like re-rolling high level teams is the flavor of the month.

[mmcookies]

Just have some patience, unless WoW stops having future expansions, the trend described below will continue.

Yes, Blizzard's revenue model is monthly subscriptions, but what they're really selling is player progression.

There's an obvious hardcore/casual dichotomy in Blizzard's customers, and the strategy for satisfying both is to introduce newer "tougher" content to usurp the old high-end stuff that's adjusted to become accessible to more players. These "adjustments" can include nerfing the encounters themselves, or providing easier access to better gear, changing PC spells to be more powerful, etc. Think of it as Blizzard's longterm subsidization of player progression between expansions.

It's ironic that Blizzard should call the expansion gear resets "leveling the playing field" when this is in fact the time when hardcore players truly pull away and distinguish themselves from the casuals (looking at it as a % gain in point allocation per gear tier). Once Wrath's first major content patch hits, purples will become easier and easier to get.

If you have no idea what I'm talking about, it's alright.
Just rest assured that Blizzard will eventually grant you purple epixx and ever increasing powers, even if they have to buff it into you.

So if you truly want to challenge yourself, you really only have about a six-month window in which to smash your head against new content in its most difficult form, before it gets nerfed and you get buffed.

[Naylix]

Most of the time, I can't be bothered to reply when people over and over whine about being oblitterated by "S3/S4" rerollers...

GET OVER YOURSELVES! S3/S4 is NOTHING SPECIAL! in S3, only the shoulders have a rating requirement, and thus to be 4/5 S3 + ALL the S3 offhand items means one of 2 things: you either afk'ed or participated in a months worth of battlegrounds, and 3-4 months of arena, 10 games pr day. Here is a newsflash for you: S3 shoulders DOESNT MAKE OR BREAK A TEAM!!!!! 150 hitpoints, on a 13k hp warrior, is NOT what makes you loose. There are teams, who does excellent things in S1/S2 + blue gear, against far better geared teams, and there are teams in the same equipment who recreate their team every other week to get out of 1200 rating bracket...

Simply put, why on earth do you feel that you "have a right" to break even 1600 rating ? You don't, you're in the same boat as everyone else. People playing at 2200 rating, are not superhumans, they have just practiced and played and gathered gear for the past year. And you are partly right, you should not be able to ding 70, grind reputation for 1 week, honor for 1 week and then expect to be part of a race that has been running for a year.... 2 weeks of preparation != 1 year!

1500 rating IS NOT THE MIDDLE NUMBER! It's not a rating that you nescessarily should never drop below. Everyone keeps calling them welfare epics and complain that everyone can get them, and when they now require a rating and are thus no longer available to everyone, everyone complains that they are too hard to obtain - go figure.

Feel free to disregard this as a flame, because that is essentially what it is. I'm just sick of listening to "glass-half-empty" people. We're all the same people, playing this game.

What gives people an edge ?

Class balance ? Yes, indeed - rock paper scissors, there are setups which are harder to beat, compared to your own setup.

Time invested ? Yes, indeed - a year of "work" pays off more than 2 weeks of work ... mostly.

In fact, see it from a Full S4, 2500 rated characters perspective... it would kindda defeat his purpose to exist, if a blue reputation geared scrub, could suddenly beat him/her... or would it not ?



It's sort of like PvE - a bear run in ZA is pisseasy. It only requires a decent gearlevel, and full focus for 40ish minutes. IF the bear was then farmed 4 months later, by fresh lvl 70'ies in blues and 1-2 epics ... How would you feel, after you've raidet Karazhan, TK, The Eye for months on end, and started on Black Temple even... effort should be rewarded. The "gap" will always be there, if it wasn't, what would be the point ?

Essentially, people complain about the possibility to progress your character... which is sorta the entire point of the game. Is it not ?



/Mwu - with inflammable wellfare asbestos-robes, lined with prime PvE gear...

[Naylix]

Edit: Nice - sql error, resulting in double post :(

[Drizzit]

!=

Someone is a programmer :)

What will probably happen is S4 will be arena with no ranking. When S5 comes out, S4 will be reduced cost and S5 might have some ranking. S6 hits, S4 will go to BG honor, S5 will be reduced cost and ranking, and S6 will have arena ranking. S8 comes out, S4 will go bye bye, S5 will go honor and lost ranking, S6 will be reduced cost and ranking, and S8 will need arena ranking.

This is what they did with arena stuff this expansion, the only thing is i think that they will put S5 (aka S2) with ranking requirements instead of none like S2.

Does anyone know what these "special" items you can get with honor are?

[aNiMaL]

IMO:
The hate vs rerollers isn't the gear advantage.
Gear is only a way to identify 'm.
The hate is for rerolling into a new team to fight easier, less experienced teams.
That doesn't sound like progress at all.

I don't get the whole "don't give the gear I worked hard for last year to people who did less for 'm" attitude either.
Most big patches which make gear easier to obtain also contain new sets of gear which are the new "braggin' and boastin'" sets.
Stop caring about the fact your current gear will be obtained by many others and start farming the new set which can't be obtained by 'm that easily.
Offcourse you need to keep "working" to stay ahead of other people.
After all a game without a goal gets boring after a while, even if it's fun.

The whole no gear from bg's is something we'll get by,
but (even if they implement it) I have my doubts blizzard would be so stupid to keep it like that forever.

[Anjuna]

Welfare pvp gear has been my only means of survival out in the world.

I disagree with this post 100%.

My entire team is decked out in Heroic / Badge gear. I have never bought any PvP gear (got some points, never used them). And I hold my own when it counts. I leveled on a PvP server, and geared my team up. Welfare epics are exactly that - epics for people too damn lame to get gear on their own.

Yes, I'm much more PvE focused, but I can cruise into a BG and make a difference.
I disagree with this post 100%. The feeling is mutual.


My entire team is decked out in Heroic / Badge gear. I have never bought any PvP gear (got some points, never used them). And I hold my own when it counts. I leveled on a PvP server, and geared my team up. Welfare epics are exactly that - epics for people too damn lame to get gear on their own. That's you and your server. You're also a 5 boxer, I am not. I was/am not decked out in heroic / badge gear. I started my team in May, 2.4 was released in March. This gave people plenty of time to get geared up in heroic gear and start becomming selective on what gear level the players they group with should have while I was still leveling. I also didn't have a guild of friends that were going to help me get geared up. I leveled in the Zerg, a guild of mostly 5 boxers. No one really had room for a 2 boxer.

Try doing sunwell dailys in your fresh set of 70 quest greens when most of the server was running around in full s3 / t6. So you think that my spending 4 weeks grinding almost 200k honor for some decent gear isn't getting gear on my own? Heh, I guess you are as stupid as your 387656575 posts led me to believe you are. It cost me the same amount to gear pvp as it did for some of the 5x teams in the zerg to gear pve / heroics.

So do some research and put some thought into what you are going to say or just stop posting.

[Hachoo]

Welfare pvp gear has been my only means of survival out in the world.

I disagree with this post 100%.

My entire team is decked out in Heroic / Badge gear. I have never bought any PvP gear (got some points, never used them). And I hold my own when it counts. I leveled on a PvP server, and geared my team up. Welfare epics are exactly that - epics for people too damn lame to get gear on their own.

Yes, I'm much more PvE focused, but I can cruise into a BG and make a difference.
I disagree with this post 100%. The feeling is mutual.


My entire team is decked out in Heroic / Badge gear. I have never bought any PvP gear (got some points, never used them). And I hold my own when it counts. I leveled on a PvP server, and geared my team up. Welfare epics are exactly that - epics for people too damn lame to get gear on their own. That's you and your server. You're also a 5 boxer, I am not. I was/am not decked out in heroic / badge gear. I started my team in May, 2.4 was released in March. This gave people plenty of time to get geared up in heroic gear and start becomming selective on what gear level the players they group with should have while I was still leveling. I also didn't have a guild of friends that were going to help me get geared up. I leveled in the Zerg, a guild of mostly 5 boxers. No one really had room for a 2 boxer.

Try doing sunwell dailys in your fresh set of 70 quest greens when most of the server was running around in full s3 / t6. So you think that my spending 4 weeks grinding almost 200k honor for some decent gear isn't getting gear on my own? Heh, I guess you are as stupid as your 387656575 posts led me to believe you are. It cost me the same amount to gear pvp as it did for some of the 5x teams in the zerg to gear pve / heroics.

So do some research and put some thought into what you are going to say or just stop posting.Those insults were pretty uncalled for. They were blatant personal attacks, which reminds me of the WoW forums, not the dual boxing forums. Just because his experiences have been "different" then yours doesn't mean they're wrong, it just means they're different. Personally on my server which has quite a bit of world pvp I've done quel'danas dailies on a fresh 70 with very little pvp gear and hardly had to PvP at all.

I'm a little upset at these changes but knowing that I can buy 5 pieces of accessories or 7 or whatever with just honor and no arena/rating makes things a little easier to swallow. And the people that are saying things will change after S6 and S7 comes out are almost assuredly right, most likely the hateful gear will move down to honor only after a season or two and wont have a rating requirement.

[Oswyn]

/cheer Anjuna

I thought it was uncalled for as well. He pretty much called you lame.

[Hachoo]

Wait what?

I was saying Anjuna's comments were uncalled for, not Fursphere. Fursphere didn't really make a direct personal attack, Anjuna called him an idiot and "based on his other ###### posts its obvious you're an idiot" etc, whereas actually Fursphere contributes a ton to this site, and I'm pretty sure hes a moderator as well.

Anyway...just wanted to make sure MY post didn't get misunderstood.

[Anjuna]

Wait what?

I was saying Anjuna's comments were uncalled for, not Fursphere. Fursphere didn't really make a direct personal attack, Anjuna called him an idiot and "based on his other ###### posts its obvious you're an idiot" etc, whereas actually Fursphere contributes a ton to this site, and I'm pretty sure hes a moderator as well.

Anyway...just wanted to make sure MY post didn't get misunderstood.So, let me get this straight. What you're saying here is that my comments were uncalled for, yet Fursphere can call my play style lame and say that "I didn't work for my gear" because he contributes to this site and you are "pretty sure he is a moderator as well"?

I'm glad you don't make the laws...

[Hachoo]

Wait what?

I was saying Anjuna's comments were uncalled for, not Fursphere. Fursphere didn't really make a direct personal attack, Anjuna called him an idiot and "based on his other ###### posts its obvious you're an idiot" etc, whereas actually Fursphere contributes a ton to this site, and I'm pretty sure hes a moderator as well.

Anyway...just wanted to make sure MY post didn't get misunderstood.So, let me get this straight. What you're saying here is that my comments were uncalled for, yet Fursphere can call my play style lame and say that "I didn't work for my gear" because he contributes to this site and you are "pretty sure he is a moderator as well"?

I'm glad you don't make the laws...I'm doing to quote Fursphere's post right now so you can see how silly you're being:



I disagree with this post 100%.

My entire team is decked out in Heroic / Badge gear. I have never bought any PvP gear (got some points, never used them). And I hold my own when it counts. I leveled on a PvP server, and geared my team up. Welfare epics are exactly that - epics for people too damn lame to get gear on their own.

Yes, I'm much more PvE focused, but I can cruise into a BG and make a difference.

Ok, lets see, hes saying he got his own gear himself and he leveled on a pvp server and geared his guy up. Then he goes on to say welfare epics ARE welfare, and that they're for people too lame to get gear on their own.

Nowhere in there did he specifically call YOU lame, he simply stated that people whining about not being able to GET welfare epics anymore are people that are too lame to get gear on their own. This MAY be an indirect insult to you, but YOU directly insulted him by calling him an idiot and then spouting off a bunch of your own personal experiences like they were fact, which they aren't.

Sorry, but his post might have been missing a bit of couth, yours was just flag out derogatory. If you really had that big of a problem with what he said you could have said so in many ways that wouldn't make you look worse than him.

Not only that but my post was simply saying yours was uncalled for and you went on to insult me as well by "insinuating" I'm an idiot because of my post...yeah, way to make yourself look even more "right".

[Anjuna]

Wait what?

I was saying Anjuna's comments were uncalled for, not Fursphere. Fursphere didn't really make a direct personal attack, Anjuna called him an idiot and "based on his other ###### posts its obvious you're an idiot" etc, whereas actually Fursphere contributes a ton to this site, and I'm pretty sure hes a moderator as well.

Anyway...just wanted to make sure MY post didn't get misunderstood.So, let me get this straight. What you're saying here is that my comments were uncalled for, yet Fursphere can call my play style lame and say that "I didn't work for my gear" because he contributes to this site and you are "pretty sure he is a moderator as well"?

I'm glad you don't make the laws...I'm doing to quote Fursphere's post right now so you can see how silly you're being:



I disagree with this post 100%.

My entire team is decked out in Heroic / Badge gear. I have never bought any PvP gear (got some points, never used them). And I hold my own when it counts. I leveled on a PvP server, and geared my team up. Welfare epics are exactly that - epics for people too damn lame to get gear on their own.

Yes, I'm much more PvE focused, but I can cruise into a BG and make a difference.

Ok, lets see, hes saying he got his own gear himself and he leveled on a pvp server and geared his guy up. Then he goes on to say welfare epics ARE welfare, and that they're for people too lame to get gear on their own.

Nowhere in there did he specifically call YOU lame, he simply stated that people whining about not being able to GET welfare epics anymore are people that are too lame to get gear on their own. This MAY be an indirect insult to you, but YOU directly insulted him by calling him an idiot and then spouting off a bunch of your own personal experiences like they were fact, which they aren't.

Sorry, but his post might have been missing a bit of couth, yours was just flag out derogatory. If you really had that big of a problem with what he said you could have said so in many ways that wouldn't make you look worse than him.

Not only that but my post was simply saying yours was uncalled for and you went on to insult me as well by "insinuating" I'm an idiot because of my post...yeah, way to make yourself look even more "right".That's your opinion and you are entitled to it, but the way I read it (and still read it) he was quoting my post and making a comment about my play style. I am not the only one who read it like that as this has been pointed out in the thread and by a friend who alerted me to his reply in the first place. So while you might see it a different way, my opinion is that he insulted me. That's my story and i'm sticking to it. If anything, he should learn to word his posts different as to not lead people to believe that he is making an inflammatory comment.

[Schwarz]

hasn't this argument happened already. Gear grind is a grind any way you go about it

a)pvp

b)heroics

c)crafted professions.

They all take time and are all have their advantages/disadvantages. I think the only reason "welfare epics" are you could get them from just afk farming bg's. Granted it sounds like you didn't do this. So I think you earned all your gear GOOD JOB!

[Ken]

3) PvE/Heroic/Raid gear. You pretty much have to earn this, especially as a multiboxing. There are no welfare runs there, especially when you first ding 70. Do or die. You don't get points for LOSING.

There are guilds that offer raid instance(Karahzan) boosts for money. (entry fee + fee per epic that is received) :P

[Ughmahedhurtz]

[edit] Nevermind. No point.

[Drizzit]

Nevermind. No point.100% agree :P
PvE/Heroic/Raid
gear. You pretty much have to earn this, especially as a multiboxing.
There are no welfare runs there, especially when you first ding 70. Do
or die. You don't get points for LOSING.
There are guilds that offer raid instance(Karahzan) boosts for money. (entry fee + fee per epic that is received) :P


Very True. To be honest, I bought and ZA Armani War bear this way.Oh no Fur you contradicted yourself :P

But you saved yourself

(but my post is mostly focusing on multiboxing teams)

It comes down to who you know and what you have. The guild that i am in have Kara on farm, i solo box kara twice with 2 different toons and now i can dual-box them there cause i am geared, but if i wasn't in a guild that had it on farm, i wouldn't even be able to go into kara... My sham where dps and a little below kara gear so that is why i was lucky in getting in, but my pally is so undergeared it isn't funny. But hopefully when the patch comes i can respec to healing and be able to get into 1 run that way (have like 450 spell damage, so patch will make healing and damage equal so i can easy switch over). If you have a ton of gold you can probably buy kara runs.

[Drizzit]

Off topic

Fur how did you "buy" the bear? Did you go on the wow forums and ask? Or did you ask in the trade channel. Just want to know cause i want to buy a kara run with my pally (thinking 1 run should get me enough gear that i can off tank with the guild next time. cause every time i run it with my sham i see plate drop all the time, but with my luck all dps mail will drop).

back on topic

[Physics101]

I'm fine with removing epics from normal bging, as long as they fix to prevent the people who deck out in the best gear getting bored and resetting their rating to stomp everyone else for giggles.

Fur we still need to slam our heads against za to see how far we can get!

[Rin]

Haha, if someone told me that I "bought" the bear, I'd tell them that they're damn right, and with 10 accounts I can make over 1000 gold per hour. GG. :D

I do want to try the ZA runs before they eliminate the bear altogether, but I doubt that all of my characters will be geared out in anything other than Dunegon/Slight-Heroics (since I'm not going to bother with the PVP push, as it wont matter in 2 months) before the expansion. We'll see....


Rin
My shameless plug: - Multiplicity is recruiting - Burning Legion - Horde - US... we're trying to ramp up our numbers to begin WoTLK progression :-)

[Xar]

LOL...BG epics are great for catching up and it's not like they were instantly available when BC started. It was a lot of BG's, and I do play them hard when I'm in them, to get my S2 gear which helped me get my s3 and s4 gear. All PVE bosses should drop some type of badge instead of random gear or have some NPC be able to trade a looted piece for another. IMO boj gear is just as welfare as BG and arena epics, you put in the time, you learn a strategy that works then you put in more time to farm the badges. If you are a solo player you can still be sub-par and be carried by the 4 others nowadays if you have the right friends/connections which is no better than sub-par BG'ers collecting their purples.

I'm not sure why this has even turned into pve<->pvp welfare posting anyway, we all pay our monthly subs to Blizz in order to have *fun* in their virtual world and different people have fun in different ways. I just bought the final 4 epic flying training for my 5 shaman team, if Blizzard reduced the cost tomorrow to 2k gold instead of 5k would I be mad? No! It's how it works plus it means my future epic flyer on alts will be even easier to get.

[Drizzit]

if Blizzard reduced the cost tomorrow to 2k gold instead of 5k would I be mad? No!

wow you are such a better man then me. I would get F**king pissed and i would cry about it, but in the end there is nothing that i can do. Like how the lvl 40 mounts became lvl 30 mounts with cheaper cost. My lock team already bought the mounts (well only the priest), but my sham team didn't. They where lvl 29 when i found out about the patch (thank god they have ghost wolf), by the time the patch came out they where lvl 58. So in the end i saved money but a couple of times i almost caved in cause the wolf was so slow. I wasn't that lucky with RAF. I think a month or 2 after i got my team going RAF started, yes i was pissed (not as much as the people that just started), but i was pissed. Again there was nothing i can do about it so i just continued what i was doing.

People deal with things differently, me, yes i get pissed, but if there is nothing that i can do about it, then i just go along with it, doesn't mean i agree with it, but hey it happens.

last note: like when my season 1 rogue went against full S3 hunter and Pally. No matter how good i was and how bad they where there was no way i will be able to kill the pally and the hunter just 3 shots my healer. Pissed that blizzard matched our team up with them, but nothing that i can do.

[Kyudo]

I knew the /wrists that was getting 5 chars to 375 LW would come in handy one day.

[Drizzit]

There are a number of guilds on my server that randomly spam the trade channel with "for sale" ads. One of them regularly farms Sunwell (yes, farms it).

shit i wonder how much that will cost.

[Rin]

There are a number of guilds on my server that randomly spam the trade channel with "for sale" ads. One of them regularly farms Sunwell (yes, farms it).

shit i wonder how much that will cost.

Its anywhere from 5-7000 gold on my server... we're a medium population server too.

[Drizzit]

There are a number of guilds on my server that randomly spam the trade channel with "for sale" ads. One of them regularly farms Sunwell (yes, farms it).

shit i wonder how much that will cost.

Its anywhere from 5-7000 gold on my server... we're a medium population server too.I don't think that is bad only if you also don't have to pay per epic too... Paying that much i would ask for master looter and probably pay them per boss... cause after you give them the money, they don't have to run you... i don't think the gm will do anything either.

[Hachoo]

I think the 5000-7000 gold Rin was quoting was just for a bear from ZA, nothing else.

[Rin]

That's the cost of 1 single bear, no other drops on my server. There's a couple of guilds who can do it, so the prices may have dropped. If I were you, I'd go with either a reputable guild, or maybe do it on the condition of 2k up front, 3k after the run... show them the 5k first so they know that you do in fact have the cash. Most people will compromise with you, as it's a lot of money to throw at a trade window.

[Stealthy]

I guess I need to clarify my thoughts.

1) Honor grinded gear = welfare epics. You show up and work hard, or AFK and do nothing, and you get the same gear as everyone else. Its a timeclock to be punched, but there is no skill or effort required. Yes, you can be billy-bad-ass, but its NOT A REQUIREMENT.
2) Arena grinded gear, even with all the faults of the system, you at least have to put a little effort into it (at least for the rating requirement gear). Ya, you can buy points and ratings and stuff.... but blizz is slowly fixing that.
3) PvE/Heroic/Raid gear. You pretty much have to earn this, especially as a multiboxing. There are no welfare runs there, especially when you first ding 70. Do or die. You don't get points for LOSING.

1) agreed - although as a boxer you can't really AFK your way through. Too many people will just report you AFK out of spite. I don't agree with no skill or effort required - boxers have to put some effort in if they want to win games. Putting no effort = losing games = hate on boxer day.

2) agreed.

3) Replace earn with learn - cuz once you've learned the instances / boss encoutners, that's it. Then it just becomes a matter of time, i.e. the better the gear, the less time it takes to finish. It never change unless Blizz patches it in. And then after a while it becomes a mind numbing cake walk.

[Toned]

Could say badge gear = welfare epics... honestly how hard is it to farm heroics LOL am I right ? One could say badge gear is for those who can't get into a guild and raid, and for those who suck at pvp no ? As much as I hate to admit it I kinda agree with Anjua. Honestly, when it comes down to it, who cares how you get your gear. Before you bust out the Soap box on how you spend hours on end fighting scripted npcs in 5man instances that are almost a year old for badges... Anjuna spends hours on end fighting real people, while balancing the chance / probability (VERY HIGH in fact) that he gets paired with pugs that have shit for brains or afk the whole time. End result you both spend X ammount of time for epics that increase your effectiveness in the area that you choose (pve/pvp).

If you are in PVE gear and die to some one in "welfare" epics that is your own fault. You spent your time grinding badges, while he spent his time grinding honor. It's not like he has afk bots running constantly on all his chars or logs in and goes /epicmenowplz and gets an inventory full of pvp gear. Reguardless of what shit pile of crayola colors you tote around on you, both take equal effort and large ammounts of time.

[asonimie]

Most of the time, I can't be bothered to reply when people over and over whine about being oblitterated by "S3/S4" rerollers...

GET OVER YOURSELVES! S3/S4 is NOTHING SPECIAL! in S3, only the shoulders have a rating requirement, and thus to be 4/5 S3 + ALL the S3 offhand items means one of 2 things: you either afk'ed or participated in a months worth of battlegrounds, and 3-4 months of arena, 10 games pr day. Here is a newsflash for you: S3 shoulders DOESNT MAKE OR BREAK A TEAM!!!!! 150 hitpoints, on a 13k hp warrior, is NOT what makes you loose. There are teams, who does excellent things in S1/S2 + blue gear, against far better geared teams, and there are teams in the same equipment who recreate their team every other week to get out of 1200 rating bracket...

Simply put, why on earth do you feel that you "have a right" to break even 1600 rating ? You don't, you're in the same boat as everyone else. People playing at 2200 rating, are not superhumans, they have just practiced and played and gathered gear for the past year. And you are partly right, you should not be able to ding 70, grind reputation for 1 week, honor for 1 week and then expect to be part of a race that has been running for a year.... 2 weeks of preparation != 1 year!

1500 rating IS NOT THE MIDDLE NUMBER! It's not a rating that you nescessarily should never drop below. Everyone keeps calling them welfare epics and complain that everyone can get them, and when they now require a rating and are thus no longer available to everyone, everyone complains that they are too hard to obtain - go figure.

Feel free to disregard this as a flame, because that is essentially what it is. I'm just sick of listening to "glass-half-empty" people. We're all the same people, playing this game.

What gives people an edge ?

Class balance ? Yes, indeed - rock paper scissors, there are setups which are harder to beat, compared to your own setup.

Time invested ? Yes, indeed - a year of "work" pays off more than 2 weeks of work ... mostly.

In fact, see it from a Full S4, 2500 rated characters perspective... it would kindda defeat his purpose to exist, if a blue reputation geared scrub, could suddenly beat him/her... or would it not ?



It's sort of like PvE - a bear run in ZA is pisseasy. It only requires a decent gearlevel, and full focus for 40ish minutes. IF the bear was then farmed 4 months later, by fresh lvl 70'ies in blues and 1-2 epics ... How would you feel, after you've raidet Karazhan, TK, The Eye for months on end, and started on Black Temple even... effort should be rewarded. The "gap" will always be there, if it wasn't, what would be the point ?

Essentially, people complain about the possibility to progress your character... which is sorta the entire point of the game. Is it not ?



/Mwu - with inflammable wellfare asbestos-robes, lined with prime PvE gear...Nice waste of 10 minutes. I was not talking about speed of gear upgrades and omggimmeepix. I'm talking about the arena game matching system being based on gear and not rating. Being matched against people in very similar gear and duking it out is the ultimate way to determine a teams skill.

/hands out magic brownies.

[FtGeno]

Eliminating honor gear entirely and tying everything into arenas is about the stupidest thing they could do before making a serious effort to balance all classes for pvp. There are too many 1 vs 1 class balance issues (think mage - warlock for one example) to make arena equally viable to everyone. Ideally you'd want equal class representation across the board instead of making it mandatory to have a druid or rogue in order to be successful. They're dumping on a lot of other paying customers by doing this and there's a shitestorm brewing here. This is just dumb.

[FtGeno]

Ok perhaps it was a bad choice of words on my part though my point remains. WoW is not adequately balanced for small scale pvp wherin certain class combinations are viewed as superior to others. Paper rock scissors loses its meaning when certain classes are deemed necessary to win or be competitive at higher levels (glares accusingly at druids). The fact is we are playing a pvp game that is balanced for pve.

[HPB]

The fact is we are playing a pvp game that is balanced for pve.

Nope. We are playing a PVE game that gets nerfed to hell and back for PVP balancing. Why else nerf abilities that are fine for farming/instances but get whined about by people who can't win at arenas and bgs. They really need to stop balancing the whole game around pvp.

[devilsome]

Eliminating honor gear entirely and tying everything into arenas is about the stupidest thing they could do before making a serious effort to balance all classes for pvp. There are too many 1 vs 1 class balance issues (think mage - warlock for one example) to make arena equally viable to everyone. Ideally you'd want equal class representation across the board instead of making it mandatory to have a druid or rogue in order to be successful. They're dumping on a lot of other paying customers by doing this and there's a shitestorm brewing here. This is just dumb.in what way does gear adress class balance ? stuid conclusion and has nothing to do with arena nor bg

[Dominian]

I still dont understand WHY 2vs2 is still around as it only leads to whine and 2vs2 is all about setup.

Change 2vs2 to 4vs4.

[Jayded1]

This just plain won't happen.

[Bigfish]

Well, they can't simply eliminate rewards from BGs or no one will run them, which would be a big shot in the foot considering how many people enjoy PvP. Of course, the BG focus may simply be switched to Lake Wintergrasp, of which I'm not sure what the rewards are.

I suppose what it eventually boils down to is where we draw the line on what people deserve as a reward.

[FtGeno]

I am simply saying that each class should have the same chance as another to win at arenas. Hunters are a prime example. Go and look up the number of Hunters rated high enough to have earned the S4 shoulders. I assure you, it's considerably lower than the rest. This is because Hunters, by nature of their class design are less effective in arenas unless pigeonholed into specific comps (drain teams for example). The numbers don't lie, go look up the numbers of high rated hunter teams vs say, druids.

[TheHamburglar]

Another thought too -

Did anyone mention if Blizz was going to remove the rating required on the items? IMHO, it seems like they would have to do something if they removed epics from BG's, especially if you need an 1700+ rating to get something nice. Yet, if they indeed remove the rating required on the items, you're going to get people who go into the arena just to lose. Even with a 1100 (lol; don't even think this is possible) rating in 5v5, it would only take you half a year to get full epic armor - losing each battle.http://www.wowarmory.com/team-info.xml?r=Stormscale&ts=2&t=NIGNOGGENFOGGER&select=NIGNOGGENFOGGER