Elemental Oath and Moonkin Aura Don't Stack?

[Aradar]

Came across this:

http://www.wowinsider.com/2008/09/04/totem-talk-elemental-combat-in-the-wrath-beta/

Read the 4th paragraph where the author states "I was somewhat saddened to find out that my Elemental Oath talent doesn't stack with moonkin aura under the new scheme." This author also states flametongue totem and totem of wrath stack which has been stated as not true by beta testers in this forum so it is entirely possible this author doesn't know what they are talking about.

Edit: Confirmed - http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=9336665205&sid=2000.

"Spell Critical Strike Chance Buff: Moonkin Aura, Elemental Oath"
"In each category, you can only benefit from the most powerful spell granting that effect."

I had seen this post before as I'm sure most of us have since it caused all the apprehension over totem stacking but I had not considered it in the druid/shaman context that some people on these forums, including myself, were contemplating due to the loss of ToW stacking. However, the haste from Wrath of Air and Moonkin Aura are considered separate "categories" and therefore should stack but I don't believe that was what most of us were looking for.

[Aradar]

How much +Crit are we really losing?

For Me: (Pally + Resto Shaman + 3x Elemental Shaman)

Old: 3x ToW = 9% Crit/Hit
New: 1x ToW + Elemental Oath = 8% Crit

So I lost 9% to hit (which someone said WotLK is lowering hit cap to 9% from 16% anyway..) and only 1% to Crit.
Losing 1%? Whoopee! I'm getting like 360 more +spell power form various places and passive Haste from Wrath of Air totem.
Oh, and two fire totems to do something besides ToW. Searing? Fire Resist? Who knows.

Now, I'm curious if the Improved Moonkin Aura (Haste Proc.) will stack with anything.

And if you add a Druid to your team, you'll still be ok. When those steams of non-crit come through and you can't get elemental oath to be up, moonkin aura will fill in the gaps. :)

Don't get my wrong, I'm not one of the people freaking out, just figured I'd point it out for those considering a druid. Personally, in the end, I think we will all be fine including 5 shaman teams. I also tend to agree with you that you can't go wrong with either a shaman or druid for the conventional shammy teams.

As for the fire totems, as I mentioned in another post, ToW currently reads that it only affects damage and flametongue says both damage and healing which seems contradictory to those elements being consolidated in spell power but I wouldn't throw out flametongue just yet for holy trinity teams such as ours. By the way, if they do stay that way, flametongue is obviously a nerf to healing considering the previous wrath of air gave +101.

Edit: Regarding the haste part of the moonkin aura, as stated in my first post, it is listed in a separate category from Wrath of Air and therefore should stack. The differance seems to be that the moonkin aura affects all attacks whereas Wrath of Air affects spells and there is a third category for melee haste which obviously includes Windfury Totem so in theory it too should stack with moonkin aura.

[Aradar]

After doing some extensive grouping with Druids, I WOULD NOT ADD ONE to a Shaman team. I have 3 druids in my guild. My Brother, who is more or less equally geared as my Shaman, and a Boomkin Duo that just hit 70. I've run with all three (me tank and heals) or just the duo (me tank heals and one shaman dps).

What I find happening is that Boomkins, no matter how they are geared, pull aggro. A lot. Too much even. And yes, I've got Blessing of Salvation on them, and my tank is pumping out tons of threat. He can hold aggro on my 1200 DPS Shaman easy. But the 500 DPS boomkin duo will pull aggro (wtf you say? I agree).

They get that Wrath haste buff modifier thing (where they crit and the new wrath gets faster or something) and once it reaches max speed, they are pulling aggro unless they completely stop DPSing.

At first I thought it was just my Bro with his gear, because its not too shabby. Then the Boomkins in quest blues and greens did the same thing. Maybe its a bug? Maybe the class is broken, who knows. But if you try and macro in Wrath with Lightning bolts, you'll eventually pull aggro. No matter what you do.

Oh, the back to back 5k starfire crits do it too. ;)

Yeah, I've heard they are threat kings and can pretty much pull aggro from anything but I had forgotten about that.

[ChaoticMonk]

After doing some extensive grouping with Druids, I WOULD NOT ADD ONE to a Shaman team.Why not? If they do a ton of dps and pull agro isnt that a good thing in a shaman team? And, does a druids armor in moonkin form beat a shaman's? if so, then thats another good reason to have them in a shaman group and let them tank away.

If your running a Pally+shaman team then I can see what you mean.

[Aradar]

After doing some extensive grouping with Druids, I WOULD NOT ADD ONE to a Shaman team.Why not? If they do a ton of dps and pull agro isnt that a good thing in a shaman team? And, does a druids armor in moonkin form beat a shaman's? if so, then thats another good reason to have them in a shaman group and let them tank away.

If your running a Pally+shaman team then I can see what you mean.

He and I both run 1 pally / 4 shaman teams.

[Havelcek]

Are they exceeding you on damage meters or is this purely a broken threat mechanic?

[Aradar]

Just looking around, the balance tree is getting a threat reduction talent of 30% which should go a long way to making this problem go away. It's actually tied in to a talent that previously only increased balance spell range, now it does both. In the current talents, balance has to spec 15 points in to restoration to get 20% reduction. Of the three level 70 balance druids in your guild, 2 don't have any points in it and 1 only has 4 for 16% reduction which may be part of the problem. However, your shammies only have 10% reduction from talents so the 16% druid should be doing better than them but you say all 3 pull aggro. Either way, 30% in the talents should do the trick.

[Aradar]

Are they exceeding you on damage meters or is this purely a broken threat mechanic?


What I find happening is that Boomkins, no matter how they are geared, pull aggro. A lot. Too much even. And yes, I've got Blessing of Salvation on them, and my tank is pumping out tons of threat. He can hold aggro on my 1200 DPS Shaman easy. But the 500 DPS boomkin duo will pull aggro (wtf you say? I agree).

[Aradar]

Just looking around, the balance tree is getting a threat reduction talent of 30% which should go a long way to making this problem go away. It's actually tied in to a talent that previously only increased balance spell range, now it does both. In the current talents, balance has to spec 15 points in to restoration to get 20% reduction. Of the three level 70 balance druids in your guild, 2 don't have any points in it and 1 only has 4 for 16% reduction which may be part of the problem. However, your shammies only have 10% reduction from talents so the 16% druid should be doing better than them but you say all 3 pull aggro. Either way, 30% in the talents should do the trick.

Agreed. Although the changes to Salvation may open up a whole new can of worms.

Ugh, forgot about that as well. Too many incoming changes to keep it all straight. I'll just say like I did earlier, I think we will all be okay, and leave it at that.

[Mono]

What I find happening is that Boomkins, no matter how they are geared, pull aggro So have the moonkin tank.

gogo panzerkin!

[Griznah]

Too bad that items will lose "extra armor" tho :( So panzerkin will have ok armor, but not great. And as they run with a proper plate-tank with a shield, then it makes no sense.
Anyways, boomers will get more threatreduction and all tanks will have higher threatgeneration, so I think a boomer will be just fine.
As you can see by my signature, I run a complete diversity team, and since my mooner will always run with form, I don't have to spec elemental oath, yay me :D

[TheBigBB]

After doing some extensive grouping with Druids, I WOULD NOT ADD ONE to a Shaman team. I have 3 druids in my guild. My Brother, who is more or less equally geared as my Shaman, and a Boomkin Duo that just hit 70. I've run with all three (me tank and heals) or just the duo (me tank heals and one shaman dps).

What I find happening is that Boomkins, no matter how they are geared, pull aggro. A lot. Too much even. And yes, I've got Blessing of Salvation on them, and my tank is pumping out tons of threat. He can hold aggro on my 1200 DPS Shaman easy. But the 500 DPS boomkin duo will pull aggro (wtf you say? I agree).

They get that Wrath haste buff modifier thing (where they crit and the new wrath gets faster or something) and once it reaches max speed, they are pulling aggro unless they completely stop DPSing.

At first I thought it was just my Bro with his gear, because its not too shabby. Then the Boomkins in quest blues and greens did the same thing. Maybe its a bug? Maybe the class is broken, who knows. But if you try and macro in Wrath with Lightning bolts, you'll eventually pull aggro. No matter what you do.

Oh, the back to back 5k starfire crits do it too. ;)If your druids are doing so much more damage than the shaman such that they pull aggro, that sounds like a good argument to use one, especially on a shaman team where you don't have a tank anyway. The only way the druid is pulling aggro is because his DPS was better than the shaman, right? The aura not stacking is going to affect shaman teams just as much due to elemental oath not stacking with itself, either. But a druid will give you MOTW and a COE-type damage buff which you can't make up for.

[Aradar]

After doing some extensive grouping with Druids, I WOULD NOT ADD ONE to a Shaman team. I have 3 druids in my guild. My Brother, who is more or less equally geared as my Shaman, and a Boomkin Duo that just hit 70. I've run with all three (me tank and heals) or just the duo (me tank heals and one shaman dps).

What I find happening is that Boomkins, no matter how they are geared, pull aggro. A lot. Too much even. And yes, I've got Blessing of Salvation on them, and my tank is pumping out tons of threat. He can hold aggro on my 1200 DPS Shaman easy. But the 500 DPS boomkin duo will pull aggro (wtf you say? I agree).

They get that Wrath haste buff modifier thing (where they crit and the new wrath gets faster or something) and once it reaches max speed, they are pulling aggro unless they completely stop DPSing.

At first I thought it was just my Bro with his gear, because its not too shabby. Then the Boomkins in quest blues and greens did the same thing. Maybe its a bug? Maybe the class is broken, who knows. But if you try and macro in Wrath with Lightning bolts, you'll eventually pull aggro. No matter what you do.

Oh, the back to back 5k starfire crits do it too. ;)If your druids are doing so much more damage than the shaman such that they pull aggro, that sounds like a good argument to use one, especially on a shaman team where you don't have a tank anyway. The only way the druid is pulling aggro is because his DPS was better than the shaman, right? The aura not stacking is going to affect shaman teams just as much due to elemental oath not stacking with itself, either. But a druid will give you MOTW and a COE-type damage buff which you can't make up for.



Are they exceeding you on damage meters or is this purely a broken threat mechanic?


What I find happening is that Boomkins, no matter how they are geared, pull aggro. A lot. Too much even. And yes, I've got Blessing of Salvation on them, and my tank is pumping out tons of threat. He can hold aggro on my 1200 DPS Shaman easy. But the 500 DPS boomkin duo will pull aggro (wtf you say? I agree).


Just looking around, the balance tree is getting a threat reduction talent of 30% which should go a long way to making this problem go away. It's actually tied in to a talent that previously only increased balance spell range, now it does both. In the current talents, balance has to spec 15 points in to restoration to get 20% reduction. Of the three level 70 balance druids in your guild, 2 don't have any points in it and 1 only has 4 for 16% reduction which may be part of the problem. However, your shammies only have 10% reduction from talents so the 16% druid should be doing better than them but you say all 3 pull aggro. Either way, 30% in the talents should do the trick.

In short, balance druids have threat issues regardless of dps but it seems they are getting help with this in the next patch. As for elemental oath not stacking, it kind of sucks but at the same time it's not permanent so having several shaman spec in to it just guarantees more up time. If you have a druid in your team, you would just skip this talent. I just pointed it out because people were considering boomkins to replace the stacking of ToW but if you are going to spec Elemental Oath there's really no point.

[Drizzit]

if you are going to spec Elemental Oath there's really no point.

they say that they are going to do dual spec toons, so i will probably take this. The reason is that i will have the druid spec tank and caster and when i tank form the shams don't get the buff.

I hope they do the dual talent shortly after wrath comes out. It will be so much easier to find a tank and healer now, really easy sense the made spell damage and healing the same. Think about it shadow priest can use the same gear, elem sham, and pallies (tank and healer)... well for the most part

[TheBigBB]

I talked to our T6 raiding Moonkin today about this. He has no idea what you're talking about with pulling aggro more. I haven't seen this happen on my team or in my raids. I don't know what to say about that comment.

[TheBigBB]

I talked to our T6 raiding Moonkin today about this. He has no idea what you're talking about with pulling aggro more. I haven't seen this happen on my team or in my raids. I don't know what to say about that comment.

Well.. you're T6 Boomkin undoubtly uses Omen (or something) and watches this threat carefully. I'm talking about all out Wrath spam. And this is just what I've experienced. YMMV

You said that a moonkin doing way less DPS than the rest of the team was pulling aggro. Your experience on this point can't differ from others because threat works based on a formula, not random luck. If you are having unexplainable aggro issues then I want to figure what is causing them, because I do run a druid and I don't want to have this cause a wipe. Maybe you were just estimating or exaggerating, and that's fine.

[Aradar]

I talked to our T6 raiding Moonkin today about this. He has no idea what you're talking about with pulling aggro more. I haven't seen this happen on my team or in my raids. I don't know what to say about that comment.

Well.. you're T6 Boomkin undoubtly uses Omen (or something) and watches this threat carefully. I'm talking about all out Wrath spam. And this is just what I've experienced. YMMV

You said that a moonkin doing way less DPS than the rest of the team was pulling aggro. Your experience on this point can't differ from others because threat works based on a formula, not random luck. If you are having unexplainable aggro issues then I want to figure what is causing them, because I do run a druid and I don't want to have this cause a wipe. Maybe you were just estimating or exaggerating, and that's fine.

I think he means his druids were spamming wrath whereas your T6 druid watches Omen to judge his threat and therefore times his attacks better so as to avoid aggro. I know if a druid takes that extra management, I don't want one in my team as I spam everything. :P

[Drizzit]

just throwing this out there, might even be wrong, but here i go

In order to pull threat you have to do more damage (threat) that the tank can do (threat)
If you equal the tank nothing will happen cause you have to do a percentage over it
Now the druid wrath has a quicker cast speed then the sham LB

This is what i am thinking
So what could happen is that the druid is just making enough threat that the tank cannot hold agro and with the quicker casting time probably beats the sham to pull agro. so inorder for the tank to get that threat back he has to do even more threat (or attack me button) to get the mob back.

K this is where i am going to get yelled at... so instead of yelling calling me stupid let me know the mistakes and i will fix it
Whoever attack first has 100% agro and in order to gain agro you have to do 30% more damage/threat to pull it away
So pally shoots his shield and does his aoe stuff and has 100% agro.
Druid wrath + 5.5 agro
Druid wrath + 5.5 agro and Sham LB + 10 agro
Druid wrath + 5.5 agro
Druid wrath + 5.5 agro
Druid wrath + 5.5 agro and Sham LB + 10 agro
etc...
So the druid will get to the 30% quicker then sham for the pull. And now that mob is attacking the druid for the sham to get agro the sham will now have to do an additional 30% then the druid.

Let me know if this is correct

edit: the 130% is if you are not in melee range and 110% if you are in melee range.

[Drizzit]

I know if a druid takes that extra management, I don't want one in my team as I spam everything. :P

you can do a cast sequence so you fire a couple blanks. If you are a person that that just hits the number 2 button then put a ton of blanks in and have the cast sequence reset in like 2 seconds. So after the first wrath 2 seconds later the next one will start to cast if spamming.

[TheBigBB]

I talked to our T6 raiding Moonkin today about this. He has no idea what you're talking about with pulling aggro more. I haven't seen this happen on my team or in my raids. I don't know what to say about that comment.

Well.. you're T6 Boomkin undoubtly uses Omen (or something) and watches this threat carefully. I'm talking about all out Wrath spam. And this is just what I've experienced. YMMV

You said that a moonkin doing way less DPS than the rest of the team was pulling aggro. Your experience on this point can't differ from others because threat works based on a formula, not random luck. If you are having unexplainable aggro issues then I want to figure what is causing them, because I do run a druid and I don't want to have this cause a wipe. Maybe you were just estimating or exaggerating, and that's fine.

I think he means his druids were spamming wrath whereas your T6 druid watches Omen to judge his threat and therefore times his attacks better so as to avoid aggro. I know if a druid takes that extra management, I don't want one in my team as I spam everything. :PThe only issue for me was that it was claimed that druids were doing less DPS but still pulling aggro, implying that they have broken threat mechanics. Everything else in this thread I follow 100% and am on board for.

[Aradar]

Your druid/shammy example makes sense in that the druid would build threat quicker; however, I'd stray away from using the words damage and threat interchangeably due to threat modifiers. As I'm sure you've seen, dps gernally out damages tanks by a large margin yet fall behind in threat production. The point I think Fursphere is trying to make is that with straight out spam by a boomkin, their threat modifiers aren't sufficient enough whereas a shamans generally are.

As for the castsequence blanks, I know, I was just kidding.

Edit: got interrupted while typing this and Fursphere beat me to the reply.

[TheBigBB]

I talked to our T6 raiding Moonkin today about this. He has no idea what you're talking about with pulling aggro more. I haven't seen this happen on my team or in my raids. I don't know what to say about that comment.

Well.. you're T6 Boomkin undoubtly uses Omen (or something) and watches this threat carefully. I'm talking about all out Wrath spam. And this is just what I've experienced. YMMV

You said that a moonkin doing way less DPS than the rest of the team was pulling aggro. Your experience on this point can't differ from others because threat works based on a formula, not random luck. If you are having unexplainable aggro issues then I want to figure what is causing them, because I do run a druid and I don't want to have this cause a wipe. Maybe you were just estimating or exaggerating, and that's fine.

Ya... you're missing what I'm saying here.

Solo player = manages player and threat (with omen) to the full extent. Stops DPS when needed, adjusts, etc.

Multiboxing Shaman = Spam. I just spam the hell out of my DPS macro, with no concern to watching threat.

Wrath, in case you don't know, gets a casting time modifier on crit. The more you crit, the faster you cast.... it gets pretty silly. This is when they "appear" to pull aggro... if you macro'd one in with Shaman, you'd have to STOP ALL DPS to back off. Or have two buttons, one for Shaman DPS, one for Boomkin DPS and manage accordingly. (no thanks!)Actually, what you just said is what I was trying to say. The druid pulls aggro because he's doing better damage.

[Aradar]

I talked to our T6 raiding Moonkin today about this. He has no idea what you're talking about with pulling aggro more. I haven't seen this happen on my team or in my raids. I don't know what to say about that comment.

Well.. you're T6 Boomkin undoubtly uses Omen (or something) and watches this threat carefully. I'm talking about all out Wrath spam. And this is just what I've experienced. YMMV

You said that a moonkin doing way less DPS than the rest of the team was pulling aggro. Your experience on this point can't differ from others because threat works based on a formula, not random luck. If you are having unexplainable aggro issues then I want to figure what is causing them, because I do run a druid and I don't want to have this cause a wipe. Maybe you were just estimating or exaggerating, and that's fine.

Ya... you're missing what I'm saying here.

Solo player = manages player and threat (with omen) to the full extent. Stops DPS when needed, adjusts, etc.

Multiboxing Shaman = Spam. I just spam the hell out of my DPS macro, with no concern to watching threat.

Wrath, in case you don't know, gets a casting time modifier on crit. The more you crit, the faster you cast.... it gets pretty silly. This is when they "appear" to pull aggro... if you macro'd one in with Shaman, you'd have to STOP ALL DPS to back off. Or have two buttons, one for Shaman DPS, one for Boomkin DPS and manage accordingly. (no thanks!)Actually, what you just said is what I was trying to say. The druid pulls aggro because he's doing better damage.

Actually, that's not what he said at all. Threat and damage do not have a direct correlation when you factor in threat modifiers.